It's the Lapsed Van Wrestling podcast special report. The Lapsed Fan presents the Complete Hul Cogan, a real American story, brought to you by Garage Pierre.
We had to pull this one together, Boss, because in the special interview Vane, if we're going to be in the middle of the Complete Hull Cogan, we all know where we're heading, right, We're heading to Hulk gets massive, Hulk makes millions, Hulk has to shrink again when the the.
Stay rights deflation, we're talking about inflation.
We're talking about deflation in the months to come on TLF and serendipitously, there is a book that has dropped that we think might make a very nice compendium. This author's really entire Titan series. In a lot of ways. We'll track kind of the pivotal moments in which Hulk Hogan and the WWF came to fruition, but perhaps no more than the latest release, which is tight and shrinking. The author is James Dixon. You might know him from his many collaborations with Kenny McIntosh and the Inside the
Rope's Crew over in the UK. He's done a series of books chronicling and really nice compendiums of everything that's been said by people who were there through the Titan rise. You might remember Titan screwed, Titan sinking, Titan shattered, and now it's Titan shrinking. How wrestling's muscle lost its power. James Dixon joins TLF to talk all about it. James, great to have you on the show man.
Thank you very much. My absolute pleasure. I'm a big fun of you guys, so it's great to be with you.
Oh it's a good start, so very good start. I want to start by going to a point in the book where you talked about your author conducted interviews, because if folks don't know one of the things James does
exceptionally well, it's not only like what we do. Go through all the shoot interviews, go through all the media articles, go through all the observers and the torches, all the contemporaneous stuff, and really pull it together because it is so hard in professional wrestling to make sure you account for everybody's voice, not only everyone who was there, but everyone who claims to be there, and all of the debunking that has to go with, you know, the fact
that you're you're you're sort of quoting professional liars, for ninety percent of what you're doing. And so James, at the at the end of Titan Shrinking, which is available now on Amazon and wherever get your books, has an author conducted interview section. A couple of folks really caught my eye, James, and I wondering if you could start just taking us into how these different folks contributed. One of the people you talked to was JJ Dillon, which he was there of course and a vice president of
talent relations capacity. And first, you know, to introduce folks to the book, and then if you could start with Jj, I'd love to hear kind of what you gleaned from talking to him.
Sure. Yeah, So with so the intro to the book is, as you mentioned, I'd release the other three the Titan trilogy, which covered ninety five to ninety seven, and for the last decade, Kenny Macintosh and the Ropes has been pestering me relentlessly to write a new one. I'm just like, man, there there's nothing I write about ninety eight ninety nine, like we w F then was on fire, So who cares?
You know, there's nothing, there's nothing interesting about them doing well and everyone getting along and making a lot of money. But I was like, you know, my thought about it, ninety two, there's a lot happens in ninety two. You've got the UK boom, which which was huge. I don't think, you know, US fans realized just how big the UK boom was. Like, obviously they're aware of it, but I don't think there's an appreciation for that's as big as
wrestling's ever been in the UK. Yes, was in ninety two, and not just for Summer Slam, you know, it was just everywhere, everywhere, mainstream. And he's like, well, that that's a big part of it. And it's a real nice juxtaposition with the WF in the US and the rest of the world's going down quite a lot and in every metric really, and Hogan obviously leaving is a big, big part of that, and are the reasons why and everything going down behind the scenes, and it's like, you know,
there's there's a story here to be told. And the more I thought about it, I said, well, yeah, okay, you can go into ninety three and kind of the New Generation stuff, and and then obviously the big climax of the new trilogy, which is what this inevitably now is is obviously the steroidrout which which you guys know a lot about, And yeah, there's that's there's there's a task aheademy on that one to get that coherent and making sense. But it's it's a fun project. You know,
it was a fun project to work on. And I wasn't convinced when I started that there'd be enough to fill out a book, but then I realized there was more than enough. You know, so much happened, so many people leave, so many new faces come in, and yeah, so it's worked out pretty well. But as for for JJ, that's actually an interview I did ten years ago. Wow. Funnily enough, So I interviewed JJ for the for the original trilogy. I don't remember how I got hold of him.
I think it was through so I'm friends with their doc to Tom Richard, and he because I was there was a point where it's never going to come out, so he hopes it. But there was a point where I was working with him on his autobiography and we worked it for a while and then you know, it kind of fell through for a bunch of reasons, and you know, but we stayed close, and when I was
doing this book, obviously I spoke to all those books. Sorry, I spoke to him and I said, look, I'd love to speak like JJ and others, because people always hear the restless point of view, but they're not the ones who matter because they don't either know what was going on, they don't remember, or they make it up, as as
you alluded to. The guys who were working behind the scenes in the office or who were like the PR guys or the ring crew or whatever, they're the ones you want to speak to you because they remember it, you know, they remember it all. So and JJ was
obviously really heavily involved behind the scenes in WF. So yeah, Tom Tom hooked me up with him, and I just give a call, and he was very very pleasant, very cordial, and you know, very willing to share anything that I asked him, and to the best of his recollection, obviously, and a lot of it was already in his really excellent book, which is Wrestlers Like Seagulls and you know, which is a very accurate description. And yeah, he was
very willing, very accommodating. But like I say, it was a decade ago, so in terms of what he said, I'm not entirely sure word for word what he said. But I did make notes of everything he told me, and a lot of it because he would.
Go he was in the office during a lot of this like panic mode, and he's credited or it depends, like you want to phrase it with getting Jerry Jarrett involved right in case goes to jail.
Yes, yeah, that was because there's a lot of dispute over that, whether that's true or right. It's like, oh, you know, you get people said, now, now, Vince, that's not why he brought in Jerry Jarrett. It was he just kind of brought him in for advice. And it wasn't because he was going to jail. It was because he was going to jail. Of course, it was Vince. Vince was convinced, convinced that was going to be made
an example of. So there had to be a contingency, right, and who I mean it was Jerry Jarrett the right option, probably not given the sort of style of wrestling he promoted and what Vince liked. And I don't think anyone could have really replaced Vince, you know, and been the Vince. It would have been Vince run from prison and everyone else just doing what what he said, but yeah, it was JJ wh wh who brought him in because he realized that Vince needed help. Amazing.
So, Boss, have one quick question about Tom Pritchard. Now his his doctorate in desire? Is it an MD or a PhD? Do we know?
I think he's got a master's degree.
Yes, there we all right curious.
Yeah, when he said it'll never it'll never come out, I was so deflated because I thought we'd finally get an answer to that long burning question relative to his CV.
I'll confermo deny whether that's in the book.
I'm afraid JP is going to turn it to you anyway, because someone else that that James spoke to was Harvey Goldsmith, who was involved a lot with bringing WWF to Wembley for SummerSlam ninety two and all of the UK tours and really kind of plugged in from the UK side when the rock and wrestling phenomenon began. We know, well, Boss, you know how prominent that era was for UK fans because we spent a lot of time talking about ninety one ninety two and so many of the listeners are from the UK.
Oh, it's it's tremendous. I mean, we we've I've really gotten a whole new appreciation. I mean we have, not just me, but we've gotten a whole new appreciation for that that era, because there are so many shows that we have been led to and that we have now watched and reviewed that we didn't even know necessarily existed,
you know, back then, at least not on tape. I always think of the the Battle Royal at the Alfred I said, Alfred Hall, like Alfred Hayes Lord, Alfred Hayes Hall, and it's I just I knew it was big, but I'm I really had no idea that it was as big as as its being described. It's really remarkable that it was kind of a mainstream thing as wrestling was kind of dying off in the States. You know. It's such a weird, kind of a weird juxtaposition to use that big word.
I mean, with the UK, it did get start to get big in probably ninety and eighty nine, when they first came over and when it was on TV, and it was a strange thing over here because it was on TV on on different stations, so it kind of bounced around and everyone kind of wanted it, you know, and it became the thing for SkyTV over here to Laune Hull, Cogan was like front and center of SkyTV's
launch alongside you know, Premier League football and movies. It was it was every bit as big and as big a part of the package that you had to pay for which was new over here. Then you know, it
was huge. And Harvey Goldsmith very smart guy, you know, very you know, big name promoter over here, and he he saw it, you know, pretty quickly, and he made sure that he was the one, you know to get in there with w F and and you know, bring him over and even though that was the case, he was shocked when you know, Vince I think it was Vince called him direct or someone from Vince's office was like, can you get as Wembley And he's like, man, that's
going to be that's going to be a challenge. That's going to be a challenge. He had, like he had booked Wembley before. There was a really famous concert over here called Live aid In.
Concert.
Yeah it still is like it's still like this iconic event and that and that was Harvey who was involved in that, and you know he took notice and he was well aware of what was going on here and and him and his team, you know, they wanted to they did want to bring it over and they and they did, and you know, he spoke to Hogan, he spoke to you know a lot of the guys. He became friendly with them and they trusted him. And obviously he did great job over here because it was always
always sold out like that, you couldn't get tickets. It was unbelievable how difficult it was, you know, the market for them, and it was. Yeah, he noticed how well it did on Sky. It was kind of the Simpsons and wf they were the two big things, right and then and I think he noticed there was a PR guy called Chris Pool and he had a business partner called Alan Edwards, and I think they'd been summoned to a meeting with Harvey. And he was like, right, it's
we're bringing something over. And they were like, oh wow, the Rolling Stones or something. It's like it's wrestling and this and this. Chris Pool was like, Alan Edwards is like what the hell is this? And but Chris Poole was like, oh, my son is obsessed with wrestling, Like I know them all, Like I'm constantly subjected to it.
On Sky. You know, so he took over the you know, being involved in that, and he was sort of a big champion of that, and you know, we talked to him as well as part of the book, and yeah, did they were I guess they were not surprised that Vince did Wembley. I wanted to do Wembley, but I don't know if they're entirely convinced that he could do it, but obviously it was no problem whatsoever.
That's great color, yeah, because it is kind of a well, it's such a huge show and loom so large for any fan of the time, UK, US, wherever you may have been that Summer Slam ninety two show. It is kind of amazing that they pulled it off in that kind of a stadium at a time when they couldn't even reliably sell out Madison Square Garden back in the United States. So we watched that with wonder and I did.
I don't know if you've gotten into this with with Harvey or any others, but you know, aw being able to do Wembley twice and they're going to do it again next year was definitely an eyebrow razer to me because I would figure that they would still have WW. You would still have the warm line to Wembley, even though you know as many times as they've been to the UK in Summer Slam nineteen ninety two, they've never
gone back there. Do you have any sense of how AW was able to kind of get themselves into position with with Wembley Stadium that was such a huge coupe for them, and I would imagine if WW could, they would have stopped it.
I think with Wembley it's a difficult stadium to run because of the weather, you know, so it's an open air stadium and certainly you know it's a different Wembley now than it was in ninety two. Minds you know they knocked it down and rebuilt it, but it's an open air stadium and the British weather is unpredictable, and right, Vince, certainly when he was in Church, isn't a big fan of unpredictable. And actually in the it's in the book.
They actually secretly and I didn't realize this until I was researching the book, had the next day booked as well in case it rained, even though it's August time, peak of British summer. I can assure you that does not matter. It can rain and it does.
Isn't it ironic that a guy like you said, Vince like he needs predictability, but here's a guy who is known for his unpredictable nature and changing his mind all the time.
Yeah, the irony isn't it is?
Absolutely? Is it hilarious?
But they did have, like I say, the next day booked. And that's actually why it was shown on tape delay rather than than air in live is because not just because of the time difference that that wasn't a huge concern. It was in case they had to do it the next day, you know. They they were worried about that, the potential of the rain. But as for a w I mean there's I don't think w is overly concerned because there's other stadiums over here that they can run,
and some of them, quite frankly, are probably better. Like there's there's another one in London called the Tottenham Hotspurs Stadium, which is a brand new stadium. It's where it's where all your big sort of stars will now go and perform, sure sometimes ahead of Wembley, partly because it's a little bit cheaper to run as well, but it's just a better,
more modern stadium. And we also need to remember that Tony kan is the own's Fulham Football clubs, right, which is based in London, and so he has connections Wembley is I believe it's owned by the Football Association over here, so he's got going to have connections via that route, you know, from in a non wrestling perspective. And plus, it's like any building, anyone can book it, you just have to pay the fee, and WWE are not doing that. WWE are getting paid by cities to run which is
completely different. So I'm Wembley and London are not going to pay WWE the amount of money that they want for like a rest in or whatever it might be. And aw were quite happy to just go, look, we'll just pay the building fee and and run the run the show. And obviously it makes them. It's worth it for a w as a you know, less established identity to do that because it makes them look good. It's,
you know, it's a perception thing, isn't it. If you run Wembley Stadium, it's huge And obviously it was huge for them, so he doesn't really need that anymore, and it very much would just be giving a nod to nostalgia for people, you know, fans like me who remember ninety ninety two, and they don't really care about that, if I'm honest, they don't. What they care about is the making money and being paid to do these you know, big p L shows that they do.
Now, that's definitely a shift, and I wonder, you know, I remember when they had when they announced the Wembley Show and they had John Cena go on the ring at the Money in the Bank Show and tease people that wrestle Meani would come to Wembley. And then they took it away from New Orleans because Vegas was willing to pay up. And now they're going to Saudi because no one can match that that whatever that check is going to look like. Do you think we'll ever get out.
Years, Yeah, it will. If not, it'll it'll go to these other you know, rich nations who are willing to pay for it for whatever, you know, reasons, political reasons that they have wanted to do it, and I can't
see it. I think logistically it's quite difficult to do it over here because you've got to think it's you've got to get not only the wrestlers, but also the crew, which obviously they do for twours, but WrestleMania is a bit different and it's a lot bigger, and then you've got, you know, all the the other buildings around WrestleMania that you're gonna need for Rahm SmackDown, and logistically it's quite tricky I think for them to do that, and I think London would pay for it, but not the money
that they're looking for. So I'd be shocked if WrestleMania ever came to London unless they do what I think they are going to do, which has run multiple WrestleManias a year. Oh God, WrestleMania Europe, WrestleMania, Saudi WrestleMania US. You know you're looking forward to that to be surprised me.
Well, honestly, I'm kind of thinking that that that next year is going to be the last WrestleMania forever and from now on it's just going to be Saudi Mania.
A good chance. What a business.
So when you when they did that tease with Sina and money in the bank, where did your head go to as to where they might do it if they did bring it to London?
What stadium? Oh? I just thought they were blowing smoke. I didn't think for a second they were going to do it. And that's a.
Bad thing to get those people that excited. And then yeah, that's a bad idea.
Yeah, they like to have something at the PLS. Now, Like if I don't know if I'm sure you guys have watched the the Unreal series that they did and and I think Nick can't say something there about you know, they want something to make it matter. It's something along those lines. It was the one in Toronto with the rock and like what can we do to make it memorable? And all this kind of stuff, and they always want something like that, some hook, and I think that's just
what that was. It's like, oh, he's John Cena and announced and he's going to promise you all this stuff and you know everyone's going to rah rah for John Cena and wow, brilliant do to me and get some great headlines.
And but I'm pretty sure it was right after a w would announced they were going to Wembley that they did that they were regotten too.
That that was my recollection. That's the game, isn't it. That's always been the game? Doesn't that used to be Vince's game and you know Paula vexl learnt very well.
Yes he did in any ways, So it's great to get that insight in the book Titan Shrinking into you know what some of the promoter types in the UK thought about bringing Summer Slam there. We all remember that show so fondly in the States, let alone to be to be in England. I mean, where were you at at the time, James, Were you trying to get in? Were you too small to even consider going? What was it like in ninety two?
So in ninety two, I'd have been eight years old and I was very much super fan. But by the time I because news traveled slow right back in the day, and I live quite a long way outside of London as well, about four hours away from London, so which I know in the US is nothing, but in the UK that's about as far as you can get, so right, you know, it's quite it's quite a distance over here, and we don't have great well we didn't certainly have
great sort of travel networks then. It was quite difficult to get to London back then, and because cars weren't very good either, they'd break down halfway. Struggle so it was hard. But but no, it was never a really feasible possibility for me and to go. But in my in my school, it was all anyone talked about for about three months, you know, as soon as it was announced, and it was always are you a breat guy or are you a bulldog guy? No one cared. No one
cared about macho man and warrior. They didn't care whose side mister Purfect was on. They didn't care about Camala and take it, none of it. They it was are you a breat guy or a bulldog? Yeah?
Yeah that those matches were pretty cold in the States too, for what it's worth.
Yeah, well that's that's fair. But you know, it was like almost like tribal warf. It was kind of like which side do you want? And in the playground every lunchtime you'd you'd all wrestle, right, you'd have a bottle royal on the concrete place ground, which you know was risky,
and there'd big war like not not real walks. We were eight, but you know, it was there was tension about like what had happened because everyone at that point, no one thought it was you know, predetermined or fake or any of the words that people use now, we thought it was really this is Brett Verst bulldog And I remember kind of sided with a bulldog at first until I've got swayed towards Brett and since then, like
I've Brett's been my my number one guy ever since since. Yes, I wasn't thrilled at the result.
But that's wild that you got swayed towards Brett as a brit That that's pretty uh pretty.
It was pretty split man Like. Honestly, it was even in the building that night, there was a lot of support for Brett, you know when when you watch it, Yeah, he gets a great reaction. Brett's so funnily enough, I
was just on, I was gonna bring that up. Go ahead. Yeah, were with Brett last week with with Kenny with Inside the Ropes and and he's still like packed houses, so yeah, packed house and the lines for him are huge and like he he still has this r about him and I think one of my one of the writers in the Inside of the Rope magazine said this about Brett once is that there was people who were more over than Brett, but there was nobody who was over like Brett.
And it's over here, that's absolutely and Germany as well, that's absolutely the case. Brett was huge and people still worship the guy as a as a hero and yeah, he's he's very much. He very much was the main event and he couldn't him and Davy couldn't have been anything but the main event on that show. That's great.
Yeah, So Brett has been doing tours. We just came up offic series of tours you guys where he does, you know, kind of like these evenings with Brett Hart that The Inside the Ropes does so well and when he was out there, you know, just just laying down the truth as he sees it. A lot of times it's received as I think more in the States than in the UK frankly and certainly Canada. He's you know, Sarah grapes blah blah blah. You see, like you know, the Twitter army go to work on him on every
comment he makes that's negative towards the current regime. Is it the flip side in the UK? Are people just like Rah Rah everything he says negative about WWE? Or is it similar over there where there's people that that that that somehow get all worked up when he speaks truth.
And British people don't really get works up about.
Things, to be honest in any case. Yeah, that's a general.
Rule, you know, but certainly not certainly not wrestling things to laugh, you know, and have fun. And Brett's Brett's misunderstood, I feel, and I will defend him because you know, I'm a breck guy. But he's he's not bitter at all from from talking to him and being at the shows and things like that, He's not bitter at all. He he loves his fans, he loves wrestling, he loves talking about it. He he knows his audience. So he's
very much like Jim Connett. And I don't want to kill the k fa here, but Jim Connett's one of the nicest guys I've ever met in wrestling. The wonderful guy couldn't have been more helpful to me when doing these books, the first trilogy. And he's always been super supportive, super help always willing to sort of share anything and
everything that he can remember, you know. And but on you know, you on YouTube, on his podcast, you'll you'll bury people because that's what his audience wants, you know. He's so he plays into it a little bit. Now, don't get me wrong, I've been chewed out by Jim Connette as well, and it was great, amazing, this is fantastic, this is he was so cross. But I'll tell you what it was. I booked a show and What Culture show in the US, and Joey Ryan was on it
and Jim Cornette was doing commentary. So you can imagine there was a combustible element. Jim Cornett was just like, I'm not I'm not calling his match. I'm not calling the dick flip. I'm like, well, I don't know what to tell you, Jim. It's on the card you're in the booth to do. And I to tell him. I was like, Joey, you can't do the flip. And He's like yeah, whatever. He didn't care, you know, but it was and Jim's just ran this, I'm on this show with this guy. So well, look, I'm not the one.
I didn't book him. I'm just the I was the booker, but I wasn't the money.
Good luck finding the person who would raise their head to say I did with him in the room.
Well, there's no one willing I can tell you. But but like like Jim, like Brett is like that. He's very he's really funny, really very Canadian human, like very dry humors, and he knows what he's doing. Like people will shout out Goldberg and he'll just be like, oh that guy, you know, And and he'll always you'll never call him Goldberg. He always always full names him, always calls him Bill Goldberg, like it's brilliant, honestly, but he's doing on purpose. I'm convinced you. And he's like, yeah,
that time Bill Gilbert is now is in the rain? Now, so Bill Gelbert. It's like, yeah, brilliant, Like keep it going.
For it totally deflates Goldberg when you call him Bill Goldberg. It makes them like a complete shot, you know.
I think that's probably the point, but it was just so. But he's so funny, and he's always got like a smirk and that glint in his eye when he's yes. I mean, I won't I won't ruin what Brett said because I'm sure Kenny will put it out on a video at some point. But he had some interesting comments about Vince and his relationship with Sean Michaels and where the nickname Bitoi comes from and things like that. And and he was saying it all with just like this
wicked glint in his eye. He knew what he was doing. And he wasn't just like random and Raven and I hate everything. It was just he was funny and he was playing for laughs, and I think that's what he's always doing. To be honest, he's and afterwards said to it, Brett, I thought you weren't going to bury anyone who's like, oh, I just got to be honest. You know it's fair enough.
Yeah, he doesn't want to promise that on the front end. My impression, I've talked to him a couple of times, and he doesn't want to like come in like he doesn't want to be known as someone that every time you put a mic in firm him, he's gonna go off. But if he reads the room and thinks that it's going to like get a pop and he's among friends, he'll start going every time.
He's a worker, thank you very much.
Now, if Bill Goldberg is something, go ahead, boss, I just I was just doing, Oh yeah, the dusty.
He's a worker. Everyone's a worker.
The uh so if with Brett, if we're kind of sure that he does the Bill Goldberg thing on purpose to Needle. Is it the same thing with the Summer Slam.
And the w CW. Yes, I don't know. I really wanted to say him, can you please stop calling it? But it's like because he was saying it was all a w series, like yeah, when I was in the w c W. I it's just like Brett, like it's unnecessary, but you don't need that word.
Wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need their candy. It's the lapsed fan. He's a lapsed fan wrest with Jack and Jo.
But I don't think I'm the guy to say that to him. No, No, I don't want to be that guy.
You know.
I actually like that he says it because it's a thing. But I always wondered if if he keeps doing it for the reasons he keeps saying Bill.
Next time Kenny brings him over, I will ask the question on your behalf. I'll pass the heat on you. Yeah, exactly.
You know these assholes from this laps fan? Yeah, someone else you talked to for the book, James Again. Titan Shrinking is Brian Knighton, who was wrestled as Axel Rotten and interesting from him. I mean he uh here of course, an East Coast wrestling fan, and he remembers Mel Phillips. And not too long ago we were interviewing a guy who manages a club we did a live show at and he grew up Queens, New York fan Garden remembers
Mel Phillips cruising through Queens looking for candidates. Okay, and and Axel describes something very similar, and that's that's very nineteen ninety two as it regards like everything that was swirling around about WWF, and just as much as the steroids scrutiny, this one was sort of like the double whammy. It wasn't just the steroids, it was Mel Phillips and
Terry Garvin and everything else. So I guess as an entry into that part of the discussion, can you talk about talking to Brian Knighton who's now passed and yeah, and that whole part of it.
Yeah. So, so Brian reached out to me and I think it's twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen and asked me to write his autobiography with him. So he'd he was aware of the Titan books or however many were out at that time, and someone had recommended that he speak to because you wanted to write a book. And I was like, man, like I don't know, like Axl Rotten's autobiography, Like I don't what's the story? You know? He was kind of do we still be for bit? He was
he still be for bid? He didn't. He wasn't like a big superstar name or anything. I was like, what's the story. There's nothing I'm not really interested by. I'll talk to him. And and as soon as I talked to him, I was like, Wow, this guy might have the best autobiography of all time, Like he's his real story was unbelowble, like it was just from like the stuff he suffered growing up, like his his real human
story rather than his wrestling story was fascinating. And then then his wrestling story was interesting as well, and I
was just like, man, this guy is unbelievable. And then obviously started telling me about the mel Phillips stuff, and so, you know, we started his autobiography and it's it's probably like the first couple of chapters were done, and I remember sending him the first chapter and he just cried like he was just so happy to see like his his life, like finally on the page is something he'd
always wanted to do. And I think it made him feel like he mattered and was important and he contributed something, and you know, and he was so excited for people to finally learn about his life and hopefully help people, because the book was gonna be called Wrestling with Heroin and it was about his addiction and how he'd overcome it, or so he claimed. And then literally I talked to him one night and he was he was in a pretty bad way and he and I still at the
audio from it. It's really it's really rough. Actually, but obviously we used to record everything for the for the book, and I said, he's like, oh, man, like, I hope we get this book done sooner. I was like, yeah, you know, maybe a couple of months. He's like, oh, it's something like, I hope I'm still alive. I was like, be alive in four months and he's like, I may I be aliveing in four days? And then four days later I got a text from from doctor Tom and said,
have you heard about Brian? And and yeah, he obviously died, So that was pretty Yeah, it was it was weird, you know, it was weird. And quite distressing at the time, but it was like, man, it's a shame, like obviously I can't you know, it's a shame for him, not for me, Like it was a shame for him that that we couldn't finish this book and to get his story. It was something you wanted to do so much, and as it's such a shame of waste all that stuff
because he wanted people to know it. And when I started around this book, I was like, man, I could probably use some of that stuff he said in here, because it I know he'd want that. You know, I knew him well enough by that point to know that he'd want that. And I did sort of wrestle with it a little bit myself because it was like, well, and I kind of profited on a guy who's passed away, you know, and it's it's a bit of a murky area,
I felt. But but I thought, no, he wanted people to know that story, like he specifically wanted it out there, and so I'll put it in there as almost a tribute to him, which is, you know, what he's mentioned
in the acknowledgements and such. But yeah, it was a like he was really upset when he when he was telling that story, it was obviously very like harrowing and for him to sort of relive it and what he was telling me about, you know, him going there with his friends and melt taking an interest in him real quick, and then you know, rest've seen him wrestling all these kids and all that kind of thing. And and Brian was pretty sure with that people knew what was going on.
And I think it's become quite clear that people suspected what was going on. But it's you know, I've been in wrestling lockerrow. I used to be a wrestler in the UK for ten years, so like, I've been around a lot of locker rooms, and I think it's it's a little bit unfair to blame the boys for not doing anything about it, because you don't really know what's
going on in people's business. You know, you don't know who's doing what likes, something dodgy going on, maybe those kids are related to now you know, you don't know really and and it's not your place. What can you do in his office? You lose your job because you bring that up. It's it's very difficult morally, I think, to know what to do. And I think it'd be very different now, but back then I think it was. It was quite difficult for the body, and I think
it's kind of outside out of mind. It's not our problem, you.
Know, Yeah, did anything strike you going through all that?
James?
How the WWF handled it at the time, you know how it I don't say they got away with it, because they took a ton of heat in the meat and there was damage that was done as a result of that. But you know, really it's hard to point to any particular bit of accountability. Of course, Tom Cole ended up coming back to work for them as part of a settlement. But you took the time to sort of revisit the chronology blow by blow as part of Titan Shrinking. What's your takeaway.
It was? I think it was really important to do that because there's so much happened in an incredible I didn't realize either, Like I knew about all the stories, but until I started researching the book, I didn't realize just how close together a lot of that stuff was. You kind of had the WBF launching on TV, and you had WrestleMania, and then in between that you had all of this stuff going on all of this scandal. There was sex scandals, numerous sex scandals as it was,
you know, the storoid scandals. And then there was Hulk Cohen's cocaine scandal, which was all over the UK tabloid papers. I don't know if it made it to the US.
Really, can you tell? Can you make a quick detour and tell us about that one?
It was? It was basically a story that Whole Cogan was a coke addict and he'd been caught, you know, taking cocaine with some some high rolling party or something I think it was. And you know, it was just one of those things that we asked them. I think it was a Harvey about Harvey Goldsmith about it or one of the PR guys about it, like, you know, we're worried about that, like the table, because the British tabloids back certainly back then and the Tories for anything,
they love to destroy heroes. And it was like, right, well, let's go after this Americans and wrestling now we don't like this, so we're going to go for them. And and it was like Whole Cogan cocaine shame and all this kind of thing, and and they were like wrestling was so big that no one cared. Nobody cared. Most of the audience was kids. They didn't read the papers.
The adults didn't seem to be overly bothered. They just sort of celebrity scandal gossip and just dismissed it and it and it kind of blew away, Like ironically, it blew away. It just disappeared, and it was it was just one of many. But that's that's kind of the point. There was just so many that it was almost like this deluge of press and it's like it's this story about this and this, and these lawsuits here and there, and you know, it's like, man, there's just so much.
And I think for for most people, most fans and most followers of wrestling, it's very difficult to have a coherent timeline of what happened during that period because, like I say, it was condensed into like a month or two, it was really close together. It was like Vince was sort of fighting fires every single day. You know. It was you'd go from Arsenio Hall who, then you'd have the rumble, and then you'd have Sid trying to leave but then to stay, and then you know, the I
think it was a drug busting. I think it was certain Leuis.
Saint Louis, Yeah, it was, yeah.
Yeah, the drug was said jack Lands are kind of been made aware. I think it was, and you know, there was a there was a bunch of stuff like that, and it was it's important, I think, to get a coherent timeline for this and make it make sense and make it clear. And as I was revisiting it, I realized that quite incredibly, I think no one cared about the sex scandal outside of the sort of shock TV shows you know you Donna Hugh and Geraldo Rivera I think were too, and no one else cared. No one
else cared. It was just no there was one more. There was one more that Vince was on with with Bruno as well, but Larry King, Larry King, that's right, yeah, Larry King. And outside of that, like, no one really picked up on it, and the FEDS didn't care at all. And the reason that's and that's in the book what's
really highlighted. And there was some really work, great work done on this by Dave Bixon span So i'ven cover some of this stuff, but what really struck me was they went after mel Phillips, the FEDS, but not to arrest him and put him in jail, which is what they should have done. There's no doubt about it that he was guilty. They've got video evidence the FBI of mel Phillips being guilty, but they dismissed it as it's
not enough evidence. Like this, this footage of you know, this grown man tickling a kid's feet and wrestling with him. It's like and various other you know, very questionable and obviously sexual things that were going on. They dismissed it as not enough evidence. And the reason for that is
they were trying to build a case against Vince. They absolutely wanted to nail somebody, and Vince was the man that they were going to nail, and they went to mel Phillips to try and get him to testify against the WF and Vince because they wanted someone on the WWF side, as they saw it, like on the wrestling side, to be on their side to go against the WF.
And they they knew that WF were paying everybody's lawyers, like all of the talent, and that they'd already been you know, they'd already been made to be on side of the degree and that included people who weren't there anymore, like you, like you, Rick Rude, and guys like that. You know. It was they wanted somebody who could go against that, because they knew the wrestling fraternity would, even if they were at odds with each other, would stick
together against this. And Mel Phillips was going to be almost one of their smoking guns. They were going to try and get him to testify and agree with what they were saying about Vince and corroborate it. And they went to visit him and he wasn't there, and then they just left it. They didn't bother going back. They said, he's not a priority. You know, we've got no interest in pursuing him unless you can have used his leverage
against Vincent, because it's collapsed. So the entire investigation into Phillips collapsed and the child sex abuse allegations were completely abandoned.
And I think it's a disgrace, really, and it's a real failure of the legal system that that was the case, This obsession with let's take down Vince, you know, which, you know, you guys money, taxpayer money, right and maybe not you guys at the time, but you know, yeah, for sure, cost people money and because of this obsession with we've passed this new law, let's nail somebody, and
they failed because they completely misread the room. And yeah, it was and you guys know a lot about obviously the trial itself, but I think it's it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad what used to what went on back then.
Yeah, it's to bring it back to hul Cogan, you know, because we're looking so closely at his whole life and times, I mean, having already covered this whole saga. You know, it's so telling to me that when Hulk was due to testify in George of Horrian's trial, which of course came three years before Vince's, that the media was excited. They were covering this thing as a story of national interest, that hul Cogan is going to testify in this doctor
steroid trial. And when Jerry McDevitt got Hogan out of testifying, you couldn't unless you lived in Pennsylvania, where the trial took place, You're not gonna find coverage.
Uh.
I mean, there were a couple of national networks that did cover him being convicted, but the fact that Piper was was testifying didn't matter. Anybody the fact that Warrior Warrior was in the ninety four to one, but the fact that Billy Graham took the stand this big of a star as he was all those years. No one cared Martel Blair, the others who came up. It was James.
It was about Hulk Cogan. That's I mean, just as much as they wanted Vince, they wanted the star power of Hulk Hogan to justify it is newsworthy and worth investing resources and covering.
Hulk Hogan's the draw and Hull Cogan gets the eyes. It's just like wrestling the car rooms. Just like wrestling, you know, you want the draw to get the media and the eyeballs on it and then tell the world about it. And if it's just you know, fed's go after owner of wrestling promotion. Who cares? You know, at that time, people wouldn't have really bad an eyeland. It's like,
oh yeah, restless taking stereos of course. Yeah. Like it's Hull Cogan though, and it's like the superhero and he's larger than life and he's genuinely mainstream a popical strike on it. When he's involved, people take notice. It's like, oh man, this guy is he's been lying to everyone and and then all of a sudden. People do love a good bandwagon jump, you know, it's and they love to tear someone down when they when they reach a peak. So Hogan was a was a perfect candidate for that.
But but obviously Hogan hadn't done anything in terms of you know, legality. He just he just took them, you know. But Vince they thought was distributing them, or they were trying to prove obviously that he was distributing them and such. So it was it was difficult to pin anything on Hulk. I think he was just kind of used really, But obviously he kind of got out of it, didn't he having to testify because of and Piper was furious about that. Yeah, yeah,
there's a Horient trial. Yeah. Pipe was furious about that one. Because this is in the book as well. And this was something I uncovered when I was researching this that I didn't realize was Piper was always described in anything like cart transcripts and things that I'd read as like almost incoherent and almost as if he was drunk right when he was in the Zaharian trial. The reason for that is I don't know if you guys have heard
this one. But the reason for that is, yeah, wrestled Undertaker on a house show and he intentionally when when Taker did the tombstone on him, I think he was on the outside and lowered himself so his head legitimately smashed into the concrete. Hogan did the same thing.
Man, the Undertaker was putting people's head through the mat without intending to all through nanty one.
Well, Hogan's was a little bit further away, I would suggest, but yeah, Pie, Piper legitimately had got himself knocked silly, give himself a concussion so he could be coherent. It's like, man, just cafe bit, you know, don't do that. But yeah, it was. It was. And Pipe's furious. He's like, well, you know, I'm as big a star as Hogan. Well, I mean you're not, but you know, I guess what
you're saying, you know. And he was curious that he's he had to go on this trial and Hogan go out of it, And yeah, I mean it's uh, it's something, isn't it what you can do when you've got a powerful layet.
Does that sound like Piper? Do you jp?
It sounds I mean listen the guy like the guy would compare himself to the Hull cogin and listen, there's no doubt about it, you know, in eighty five eighty forty five he is he is easily on par with Hull Cogan as being the equivalent bad guy. But come on, dude, after that, you're nothing compared to Hogan. I'm sorry, You're done. You can't. You cannot, you cannot, you cannot possibly possibly compare yourself. There's nobody except for Steve Austin and the
Rock who can compare themselves to Hull Cogan. It's just not possible. It's ridiculous. Sorry, Roddy, go fuck yourself.
It's pretty amazing that that Roddy you know, would have ex WWF to exert the legal resources to come up with, you know, a reason. Of course, the reason is under seal, never to be revealed again, that they convinced the judge that Hulk Cogan would be harmed more than he would
help the prosecution's case if he testified. Yet Piper could have made the same exact argument on the differences, they didn't have the WWF's homepaid attorney to make that argument on his behalf which is so incredible because Hulk's the one who turns around and goes to w CW and leaves Vincent the lurch in his trial, and by the time Vince's trout comes along, Piper's working for them. In the ninety four King of the Ring main event. That's rest iron.
It's the whole situation as part of the New Generation, no doubt. Well, yeah, quite the New Generation may invent that one, wasn't it. It was the responsibility really for Hogan being dragged into that was was the Harian's lawyer. So there's this really flamboyant lawyer, you know. He was like a three piece suit and cowboy boots kind of guy, you know, and he was he was very much like a wrestling Carnie promoter. This he's called William Costopolis, and
he loved Spotlight. He loved the spotlight. He thought he was on Ali mc biale or something, you know, when he was in and he was so he would just kind of downplays the orions role and just be like, oh, yeah, every one of the wf's using them rather on the mother don't participate obviously, referring to the steroids. And that was when the reporters pounced in like USA Today ran a front page, so like Hulk book from a bottle,
I think it was. And and that's when Jerry McDevitt got on the phone, this the federal judge in the case, which is William Judge William Caldwell, and was just like, look like the government just wanted there for media attention, Like it's going to really hurt his career, it's going to be injurious to his career. And Jerry McDevitt has a lot of sway, I think it's safe to say, especially right, and he obviously got his way and Hogan was excused, and I know Phil Mushnick was furious about it.
I think he says on the on the Vin Stuck as well, but he was furious at the time. And it was just like, well, why how do you get dismissed from testifying? It might hurt you tell the truth. It's like, well, he raises an interest in a probably good point, probably good point.
Yeah, he said that in the Dark Side episode as well about the trial, And yeah, I think that one comes down to, as far as I can discern, that they were able to convince the judge that anything haul Cogan's going to get there and tell you about Zihorian. You already have established as as a point of fact, and so at that point all you're doing is is kind of carding him out, knowing that you can already
make all the points his testimony would make. It's not like he was unique in his association with George and
Horian among wrestlers. And there's probably some other things. I mean, there's clearly there was clearly indications and a lot of the filings and stuff we looked at and the contemporaneous reporting that they also made some kind of case that forcing Halt to talk about his doctor patient relationship with George and the Horian would reveal some things medically about hul Cogan that would be something that would be an jurious to him for the public to know.
So who knows what that is.
But I've had my mind maybe maybe maybe because it might have exposed that the size of Terry blays Penis and hul Cogan's were actually the same size.
It did come up in a court of law in the future.
You're right about that.
Really, it did become a question of a lot at some point. So James just tell us Hogan. I mean, this is such a weird time for him. But you spent a lot of time in the book talking about how he became the star as well on the salad days for him coming going through it systematically like this, But your anything surprised you to conclude about Hogan that you didn't really appreciate on the front end.
I think it's really surprising how just how much his relationship with Vince collapsed after a senior hall that really really it's been very injurious to his career. That was, you know, and and obviously people are aware of it and what he said, and I don't think they're aware of what Vince's stunts, and that was, which was very much like don't don't say anything, like don't don't deny it, like it's going to be obvious. They're going to see
through that if you have to. He didn't want him to do it at all, obviously, But Horgan was very I think it's fair to say, ego centric. And Horgan knew that his name was getting dragged through the mud, and unlike Vince, he wasn't willing to just let it slide off. And and kind of hope it goes away. At first he wanted to defend himself, and I get that, but there's a way to defend yourself and there's a
way not to defend yourself. And what Hogan did was obviously not the way to defend yourself and it was a foolish move, and I know obviously Vince was furious. And then it immediately stirred the horness nest because everybody then who had a vendeta against Vince so against Hogan, you know, your Brunos and Billy Grahames and such, were like, Nope, we're not standing for this. Yeah, this guy's a liar
and we're not. It's And for whatever reason, they decided that that was the the thing to take him down with, and they did, you know, and and Vince and Hogan really drifted apart, and I think there was this What was really interesting was there was this a roast for Vince.
I think it was his birthday. It was sort of a combination of his birthday and a celebration of how long he'd been in the business, which Linda had organized secretly for him, and he had a load of guests speakers there, including some people who had left and including Jesse Ventura who was suing him at the time, and even he had enough respect for Vince to see him, you know, to see businesses business and go, no, I'll
be there. And Jesse was there, like I've got the invitation actually and without the list of all the speakers on and who's going to be there, and Hogan was one of them. And like I said, Jesse was there. And there's other people, some guys who weren't in WF at the time, some comedians things like that as well. And Hogan went to the event, but he didn't get up and speak and give his you know, glowing abute
or you know, whatever it was supposed to be. And then mean Jane was wandering around with the microphone just kind of getting comments from from other people or the wrestlers who were there, and he went to Hogan, and
Hogan just waved him away, wouldn't they anything. It's like he's the guy who's been with Vince for the last you know, eight years, and they've made millions together, they've conquered the world together, they've they've gone global together, and they were Vince and Hogan like Hogan was Vince's number two really really in many ways, you know, it was it was a partnership. One couldn't have existed without the
other that were symbiotic. And then you have this sort of complete collapse of this relationship of you know, this power couple, I guess, and they just really weren't working well together at that point. We're barely speaking and and I think Vince knew that Hogan was a lightning rod for controversy. He needs to he couldn't rely on him anymore.
I think that's what Assenia Hall had proven to him, that he can't trust Hogan, and that's why, you know, they did the Survivor series switch and they kind of devaluing him a little bit by having him get beat a little bit more. And then the Rumble thing the way that was booked, which it's actually the reason SID tried to quit at Royal Rumble ninety two, so, which
is such a ridiculous and very SID story. But the whole Hogan elimination thing and the way it played out and Hogan then complaining backstage about it and crying about and kicking off with you know, bout the way it's been booked was obviously some political you know, to and
and thrown between Vince and Hogan. It was a power play between the two of them, and Sid just saw it and was like, I'm not getting involved in this ship like I'm He's like, thanks Vince, by m out of here, like this is I don't I'm not being involved. This is ridiculous. And I don't know why it bothered him so much. But obviously he's working with Hogan, I guess, so he's he just want to be part of some game, and Vince convinced it must stay, you know, through through
to the WrestleMania and then the European Tour. But and then it fell apart as it did. But yeah, it's quite interesting that there was all these games going on, and you know, but even despite that, Vince still wouldn't let Rick Flair beat Hogan because he didn't see it as Flair beat in Hogan. He saw it as Rick Flair and w c W beating the WF. So because he's a contradiction, isn't he Vince. He's so he's it's all this crazy stuff going on in Vince's head and
he doesn't He's like, oh, maybe I will go with Hogan. No, actually I hate Hogan. And then we'll do this interview that the two of them did, and there's some really interesting stuff in there where Hogan talks as Terry bowlea very briefly in there, and and Vince kind of forces him into retirement, which Hogan was like, oh, it's news to me, you know.
Thank you for the memories, thank you for the inspiration, and thank you for whole comania.
We all remember it. Thank you.
Terry had to say wrapping up with James Dixon again that the book is Titan Shrinking, part of his Titan series that you want to check out Boss anything else for James.
No, I just I love, you know, we know so much about this this time period, and I love just learning these these some little details that I just I don't think if we talked about it, it was so many years ago, but just kind of even talking about the relationship just kind of disintegrating, like there's just some some details in there that, uh, again I don't I don't think I knew, or if I knew, I'd forgotten by now. And so it was a nice reminder. So
I think that's just absolutely phenomenal. Though those little those little tibets of information to me are are everything, and they just paint such a better picture of the whole story.
So well done, Thank you man. I mean that's for me with these books, like you say, I love this information is out there in some form or of the it's about bringing it together and trying to make it coherent and trying to make a nice amen tie. You know how about that. It's it's a tricky right. You guys know this as well as as well as any And it's about letting people be able to understand what happened and making sense of all the legal talk and all the you know, the drug talk and all the
scandals and newspaper reports and things like that. And and for me, it's very much about the minutia. You know, everyone knows the big overall story, but what's what's the small details, the little things that fill in the blanks of the things that don't make sense from what's already out there, like the reason Sid left, and there's a lot of I won't go into it, but there's a lot of different stories. Sid's version, the WF version, and
the Meltter's version. And then when you sort of piece it all together and look at logically and figure out as a proper timeline. You you actually see what really happened and go, ah, that's what happened. And then you speak to a few people and fill in the blanks on things and and they're for me, the important part.
So my favorite part of the book. And again I won't go into too which did I don't ruin it, but the nails and Vince story is probably the most fun I had right in the book, as you can imagine, you know, it's it's quite a fun story and story anyway, and there's so much, so much bullshit out there about that story. That everybody was there, you know, everybody was there, like Woodstock, everybody, and they all saw it. They were all in the room, right, Oh yeah, I was the
one in the room who pulled nails off? Is that that you weren't You weren't even booked on the show, you know, So, Jim Brunzell, what you're talking about? You know? Whoever? You know, I might be just burying poor Gym there. But you know, there's a bunch of people who claim they were there, who weren't there, and some people who were, and some people have different perspectives or they've told it so many times that they remember it as that, but
it's not what happened. And I talked to so many people and and read and watched so much stuff about that to finally piece it together. And then when it all came together, its suddenly all of it made sense, like from step to step to start to finish, and it's like that's the real satisfaction of writing these books is being able to finally sort of unearth these little things that the little tiny snippets that make it go from well, okay, all right, I get it now, I
get what's going on here. And that's what I'm hoping to do because, like I said, there's a million shoots, and you know, we've got you know, podcasts like you guys who go into so much stuff, and there's you know, wrestler podcasts now and we documentaries and you know, live toos and everything, books and everything. But it's about piecing all that stuff together and making it, you know, one coherent story that people can follow. So that's that's the fun part of it.
Doing the work. It's TLF approved, Ladies and Gentlemen, Titan Shrinking. Check that out and the rest of the Titan series. Friend of the show, Thanks so much for being here. James appreciate it.
Thank you guys. Been an absolute pleasure anytime