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Say, you know, I've always been a big fan of a large Barge.
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Polls well as the complete Hulk Hogan continues to unfold. Here at the Lapsed Fan, we've reached the point Terry Boleya has finally stepped into the ring at Florida Championship Wrestling, despite the false starts and the controversies with Matsuda and everything else that's become the subject of legend for wrestling
fans that know the Hulk Hogan story. But as you know by now, we're trying to reach out beyond just our podcast studios, get a finer idea and some more color as to what it was like to witness the rise of Hulk Hogan before he was Hulk Hogan. And we can't do much better when it comes to his first match. Then, speaking to a gentleman who was in the ring with him in those absolutely early formative days, he is Brian Blair, formerly of the Killer Bees and
a legend in the business. Brian, it's so great to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Jack. It's great to be here. Yeah, I had you know, I'm still hurting over Terry, or a lot of us are. But fortunately we all have great memories and we hold on to those tight and just pray that Terry's in a better place.
Before getting into those recollections of those early days. That's probably not a bad place to start, Brian. I mean, we're a couple of months out now from losing Hulkogan and you were as close to him as there are a few that were as close to him as you were, living so close to him and being with him from the beginning of his career. Do you still find yourself thinking about him, like in a quiet moment, do you have to sort of be reminded that he's no longer here? What's that like?
No, I'm reminded every day. I have a one of those little risk bands. It says Hulco Mania forever.
Oh yeah, that'll do it.
Yeah, seven twenty five, of course, that's the day Terry went to heaven. And you know, I just, yeah, absolutely, I think about him. You know, I read my Bible every day and his memorial card is right there, and I stare at his face and think about him every single day.
Oh wow. So yeah, the wristband, that constant reminder. Well great, So I want to talk about the first match because you know, people that really get, like to a geek level about Hulk's life will always look up his record of matches. That's it's not a thing on the internet, you know. And over the years, I think it became known that, in fact, his match with you in Chieflin, Florida, which you've talked a lot about in prior interviews and in great detail in your book with Ian Douglas, was
thought to be his first. He talks about it as his first match. Terry does, I think in his second book. But there are records of him wrestling Don Serrano on August ninth before your Chieflin match with him on August eleventh of that year. Now, of course, it's asking a lot of you to remember specific details from that far back.
We're talking August ninth, nineteen seventy seven, of course, but I did want to start by asking because it did say you were on that first card Fort Pierce, Florida, August ninth, seventy seven, John Carroll High School, when Don Serrano defeated Super Destroyer, which of course was Terry under the hood. Apparently Don Serano was supposed to wrestle Wolfman Smith on the show. There's like a newspaper clip about that that says Wolfman was a no show, so Super
Destroyer gets plugged in there. Do you remember that at all? You were wrestling Tony Rocco, I believe on the card.
No, I do not recall that. I absolutely recall our match and what we had several matches, not just in Chiefland and Fort Myers, oh, several places. But I don't recall him. I know that he wrestled Don after a couple of weeks after he is match in Chiefland.
Yes, yeah, I'm showing him August twenty fifth in Jacksonville, and you wrestled in August tenth and eleventh, so yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, that was a while. That was a great We had worked a lot of course we broke in together. I was in the dungeon with Matt Suda for three and a half summers, which is a long time with ero Matt Sudo. You know, one one hour is a long one one minute is a long time with just here. But I have no idea how how I made it through that, but I guess it was just a lot of passion drive termination. And
I just remembered Terry long before wrestling. And anyway, if you wanted to talk about that first match, I rode up to Chiefland with the Brisco Brothers, and I believe Don Morocco was with us, and and Terry rode with I've been called off. I believe Pat Patterson. I know there was several other heels, but you know, k Fabe was very strict back then. Yeah, of course, you know, we the heels would never ride with the maybe faces
or advice of me. So they told us a few days ahead of time that we were going to you know, Terry's finally going to work maybe, but oh, I don't know a week ahead of time, and they really I had been working for a few months, but they kind of wait till the last minute to smarten you up. But Terry was such a fan and such a student of the game. I mean, he never missed at the Armory. But we were excited because they said we were going to have a fifteen minute Broadway or draw fifteen minute draw,
we call it a Broadway. And in wrestling speaking, so Terry and I are in the ring and go over a bunch of spots, you know, for a few days, we're really excited about it. And oh gosh, the Briscos are pumping me up on the way there. And I'm sure I'm sure Terry was getting pumped up by Pat Patterson and Ivan call Off and the rest of the guys. But we get we get in the ring, introduces, we
get in the ring. It's a good little crowd in chief when it's at the high school and and anyway, we start out and we're just going back and forth, back and forth. You know, five minutes gone, everything's going great. I mean, we're having a nice little you know, we're doing chain wrestling, you know, reverses and switches and and go behind and you know, things that Terry really wasn't designed to do, and he would quickly throw out of
his repertoire. But we were doing that kind of stuff at the beginning, because I said, wrestling on the marquee, so we were wrestling. Eddie Raham liked wrestling, you know. The exception was, you know, Dusty. That's why Dusty got over so big, because Florida was built as a wrestling territory.
But anyway, five minutes gone in the match, a lot of chain wrestling and little strong man stuff with Terry, a few of those kind of spots, and finally he starts getting the heat on me, you know, boom boom bone. Ten minutes gone, and I know it's a fifteen minute Broadway and Terry's got me. Or actually I had him right before that down and I snapped married him and had him in a reverse chin lock. And I looked and all the talent is out on both sides, all the baby faces are out on the one side, and
all the heels are out on the other side. I whispered it there. I said, damn, we must be having a heck of a match, whether everybody's watching, and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's keep it. And so anyway, we don't hear the timekeeper.
You know, he announced at the beginning, one fall, fifteen minute match, he did ten minutes gone, and you know, normally the timekeeper go when you get fifteen minutes, they'll give you like at least the last three minutes, you know, seventeen or thirteen minutes gone, fourteen minutes.
Gone, and.
You know, so there's something that won't. So I'm just still a green too, and I'm working my way through it. Well, I know that at least three minutes gone, I have gone by and I don't hear anything he tarried in it or anything. So I said, hey, bro, we need to kick it in. So we start kicking in and
do it all our spots to come back. You know, he got really good heat on me, don't finally turned heel no more wrestling, you know, gouged my eyes, you know, threw me into the bashing my head into the turnbuckle, choking me with the rope, all that kind of stuff, dropping elbows on me and barely kicking out two and a half and finally he misses something. You start to come back being bang boom, and I know, now fifteen minutes is gone, being bang booming up. All of a
sudden we hear fifteen minutes gone, fifteen to go. So fifteen minutes to go, fifteen minutes gone, fifteen minutes to go, and so the Brisco was changed it to a thirty minute match. And we had given everything we had. We had nothing left in the tank. Terry had nothing, I had nothing. I mean, we were just totally gassed. We got fifteen minutes to go. That's probably the worst fifteen
minutes of wrestling in my life. Oh gosh, you know, talked about that many many at times, just you know, the business is full of jokes and there's always practical jokes, and that Terry was never a practical joker, really, but he was at the blunt of a few viscal brother practical jokes and that was one that God is really good. I mean it was. They were laughing so hard over there.
I mean, they don't want to expose the business, but you can see him putting their arms over their mouths and slapping each other, and slowly they're disappearing and peeping out that went peeping out the door, watching to see what kind of match we had. The crowd completely died. It was. It was rough.
Wow. You mentioned Brian going over spots in the weeks leading up to the match. What does that look like? Do you get together in the sportatorium and say we're going to do this or are you just verbally talking it out in the car? How does that go?
No, we were actually in the sportatorium and went over stuff and walked through him pretty much. Uh, actually took you know, bumps on some of them, you know, going through some of the spots. I mean, uh, we did some arm drags and you know, you know how many people how many times have you seen Hulk Hogan arm drag? But he could do that. I mean Terry was very, very,
very versatile, and he was a good athlete. I mean vern Gania got mad at one time in the a w A and I went to leg gut him, and vern Gania, who owned a w A territory, is his son. He went to leg dive him. I got so mad at him, was going to stretch Terry, and Terry front face locked him and vern started tapping right. Just you know, a lot of people learned the hard way that not a lot, but a few people learned the hard way that. You know, Tory was a pretty tough guy if you had to be.
When you went into the ring for that match, Brian, what was the understanding as to what you guys would have been doing when the fifteen minutes elapsed. Was it a double down? Was it Terry hits you with a big move and he's about to pin you and then the time expires vice versa.
No, we were doing false finishes. We were trying to end it, like you know, a Sunset flipped him. He shot me, he reversed it. I went to shoot him and he reversed it. I hit the ropes, came off with this. You know, he bends over for a backdrop like and I jump over him. Sunset flip him ron too. He kicks out, jumps up small package on two two and a half. You know, he kicks out, and we were just doing false finishes. It was it was That's why it was so difficult, you know, because here you're
doing all these false finishes. If it was just a double down, a double knockout, we used to call it. A double down is the modern term. But dang, it would have been a hacking a lot easier.
But d have been laying there collecting your your breath there for the next Now, did you have a finish and did he have a finish.
At the time At the time neither one of us had an actual finish, you know. I mean it's Terry's first match or so, so he can't really establish a finish. And I was still feeling my oats.
So what what do you remember doing in that extra time? Brian? Was it just that unexpected fifteen extra minute?
Did you just redo the as you know wind? I wound up with the sleeper on the sleeper. Then Steve Kerran got on me about that, Steve Risco's old Steve Kurrn, that I did his finishing. That he pretended like he was mad at me. Oh gosh, it's like a constant rib They never stopped. You never stopped ribbing.
Let me let me get that straight, Brian. Sorry, go ahead, Jim, No, no, go ahead. If you get something on the sleeper, you're saying you grabbed the sleeper because you're trying to figure out what to do presumably for that fifteen more minutes, and the sleeper at the time was Steve's finish. That's what you're saying, Brian.
Yes, that's exactly, Jacob what I'm saying. Exactly. I even went into the figure four and I actually screwed it up, so he kicked me off the figure four and of course I was Jack Briscoe's finished right there.
So you gave you gave a little bit back to about that is that you gave it back to them too, a little bit if you're gonna put me out here.
For that was Actually, you know, I'm not that smart to think that I'm giving it back. I'm just trying to think of things I think I can do. But I think I can do that's amazing.
I just had a question. So so I know I've heard this.
This is you know, not the first time I've we've heard this before, but this idea that that you don't find out that it's that it's work until you're on your way out to the ring during your first match. Now, I I've listen, I've been in the ring two times with very very limited training, just more for for fun to kind of learn and and just kind of and
and to to to see how it felt. And I can't imagine even and now in today's world learning like saying, hey, you know, you know learning as you're going out to the ring that it's that it's a work.
I mean, how how did how do you do that?
How do also do you train for so long and not you know, like I just I want to know what it's like, what it was like for you to to to finally understand that it was a work, and how you didn't really know it was a work before you went out to the ring that first time.
Well, out of over one hundred people that started in the business and the Lancers in the three summers that I was there three and a half summers, the only three people that made it were Paul or and Orf, mister Wonderful Cogan Poachster, and myself. And at one time I said to Orndorf, I said, look, Hero smartened me up because we knew. I mean, you just had to know that it was you know, that they were working.
But there was a little doubt there. I mean, you didn't know if some of it was real, if you know it was when you're around the boys enough and then you see him talking and eventually you kind of figure it out. But the Hero was so strict, you know, and Eddie Graham and the people there that were training us, they just believed in, you know, not smartening us up until you know, they thought that we needed to because they just as soon see you go out there on
amateur wrestle, which we did all the time constantly. So I said, I said, Paul hero smartened me up yesterday. He said, what, No, he didn't. He didn't believe it. So yeah, give me a slam. So you know, I'm actually lying to Paul. I want to see if because Paul, Paul's already had a couple of matches, because I'm just you know, I want to doubly, doubly checked at the work. So the takes me up and he slavs. I mean
I could barely walk for two weeks. I mean, my hip went out so bad, my psiatic hurts so so bad for two weeks. Oh gosh, I'll never forget that paint and that that was a brutal, brutal lesson. But I don't know there's psychology for waiting so long. But it was usually like away from a week to a month before you would go out there and they'd smarten
you up. So and you don't have a whole lot of time to practice, you know, sunset flips and different things like that inside cradles or small packages what they call you know, those are things that you kind of know from amateur wrestling. They're things that are used as a war, but they can also be used as a shoot. Yeah, so much of that, so much of the.
Business is like I think one of the reason fans might get confused, Brian is because years later, when the famous wrestlers tell their stories about getting started, they lie about going to the ring thinking it's a work. Terry in his second book said, in that match with your chieflin quote, we're fighting. I mean, we're really beating the shit out of each other. I thought I was supposed to win this thing, and he was just following his orders to not get beat. So that's sort of like
a middle ground there. What do you think of him characterizing it that way?
You know, he's protecting the business. Yeah. Yeah, we did potato each other a lot. There's a lot of a lot of potatoes thrown in that match. The last thing that they that the ownership wanted to see in Flora was somebody miss a punch by a couple of inches or whatever. They wanted you to lay them in, and so we were, we were laying them in and ah, that's just the way that we were taught then and after a while, you know, later on in life, Terry would he wouldn't work with anybody that was stiff.
Yeah, that's that. That's definitely something we heard about. So all right, that's great. So when he's saying, because if you say you're working out the spots, you know, a few weeks ahead of time, clearly Terry's not going into the ring thinking that he's just willy nilly trying to use real techniques to pin you, and your your mission is to just not let him pin you. I mean, he says, you know essentially that he was supposed to win it. But you say you go to the ring expecting a draw.
Oh yeah, I was absolutely told to us that it would be a draw.
Okay, all right, so I'll go with it, right, I'll go I'll go with your memory on that one.
Also, that's one thing too, like, I mean, that just seems like a crazy thing to be I mean, i mean, fifteen minutes, it seems like it's it's certainly that that's an incredible amount of time to do the uh, the kind of athleticism and and and to do any kind of of a pro wrestling and men to just kind of have that that kind of just did you say, no, we're gonna ad fifteen minutes and you don't even know about it and it's completely all you know, done behind
your back. It's really again, I'm I'm to me, that seems risky. It seems like a risky thing to do with two guys who are going out for there for the first time. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but I mean I commend you guys for able for being able to pull it off as best as you can. But that seems like a hell of a risky prank to me. Give given the nature of the pro wrestling business.
You're right, JIPI, it is a hundred percent is But they the way We're in a small town that gets run about, you know, twice a year, and in a high school with you know, five hundred people or whatever, and you got the Brisco brothers who don't care so that you know they did. They march to their own drama and they actually own part of the office like five percent or something like that.
So, Bron, when we look at the record, there's that Don Serrano match, and it always says that your match with Terry and Chiefland is the second match you had, not your first, that the first was in fact the day before in Fort Myers at the National Guard Armory August tenth, with the Chieflin match being August eleventh. Do you think there's a chance that you remember the Chiefland match as actually the Fort Myers match and that you had been in the ring with Terry before this.
No, I know for a fact that his first match was in Chiefland, and I know that he worked with Don Serrano because we were working out in the ring, and I just remember the first, first, first, first. It was always the first, first, first. Yeah, and he would have told me or you're saying I was on that card, that's right. I don't recall that at all.
That's fine. I mean it could happen. And you know, I guess there's a distant chance that who the newspaper refers to as super Destroyer wrestling Don Serrano is not Terry. But I'd be shocked by that because he's Terry. He's super Destroyer against you right under the hood.
Yes, yes he is, he is, and there was no other super Destroyer in the in the territory.
Okay. So knowing that then that that kind of answers the question. Another thing I always wonder is the results that survive say that Terry went to the ring that night against you in Chiefland and Fort Myers. Is Terry Boleya? Maybe they just put that in there, but he was super destroyer, right, he never wrestled you in that first run? Is just Terry Boleya?
No, we have pictures from there?
Oh yeah, one into your book.
It's my book actually Truth be Told. But yeah, that's from Chiefland. So he was with a mask. Why would they call him Terry? Belay with him? Right?
If the whole idea, as Brisco has said, was to put him under the hood to sort of protect him so that if you did use him later, people don't remember him as that clumsy loser, you know what I mean? Understood?
Yeah, exactly exactly?
Did you can you can you sort of confirm that for us? Like what was the psychology of putting someone like him that's so big, you know, under a hood so early?
Well, you know, Terry had that look, that special look. It's like what I used to sneak into the bars and watch him play bass guitar and you know, standing the platforms and he was like stood out like a freak. I mean, he had a tremendous body, a tremendous tand he had his mama's jewelry on and was about seven foot tall with those platform six inch platform shoes, and it was just amazing to watch him. So he had
that charisma from being in a band. He had so much, So it makes sense to put him in a mass so later on when he comes back as whomever he's coming back as. Uh. Even if he was coming back as you know, he would obviously have some kind of a tide terrific terrry or whatever. You know, you wouldn't want to remember him when he was clumsy and green.
That's right. So, so the photos in your book are so great because I don't think we've seen those before until your book published them. Maybe they were out there. Where did the photos come from? Of you wrestling him? And are there others from those early days and no one's ever seen?
Oh yeah, a couple of the people that took photographs here. Golly, I can't think of their names right now.
That's okay, But you ended up in possession of them.
Steve Kernos actually Ian.
Has them or had them, Okay, So the author I.
Ian Ian Douglas, who wrote co wrote the book, my yep offer kind of.
Well, that's great Okay, cool, that's good to know. I thought maybe it was something that you had over the years, just hung on the photos that were taken, or if they were bill after photos or or whatever. I mean, those are so kind of historic now because there's no video at all of Terry wrestling in that first run. It's just still images, and even those are very sparse.
Yes, yes, yes, I've got a lot of you know, fun photos, but hundreds. Oh sure, having a good time, but nothing in the ring. Other than those. There's some more. I've seen a bunch of them, but they're all stills.
How would that work back then, Bran and c w F. Would they only tape the Armory shows in the Sportatorium or would they not even tape all the Hester early shows.
Yeah, they would tape in that the Sportatorium, and they didn't tape all the time at the Armory. They would Actually, the reason you don't see a lot of footage from back then is because they would take the master tape and just tape over it. Yeah.
Tragic, tragic, absolutely trasic.
Save money. Yeah, they didn't have the foresight of realizing how much money that stuff would be worth.
Yeah, yeah, I'm actually grateful. We have as much sort of film footage from the hesterly that we do. WW bought a lot that I think you know from the grams that we didn't even know existed until they re released it. But the only thing we have in video form from then, and you've probably seen it by now, Brian is is Terry in the Sportatorium. He's working with I think Willem Ruska, he's working with Eddie, he's working with Pat Patterson and they're just doing just doing drills
and he looks so lean. Terry does so young and so like, you know, impressionable and kind of clumsy. But he's doing some you know, he's doing O'Connor rolls, he's doing some fairly complicated stuff. Well, what do you think if you know what I'm talking about that? What what are we seeing there? Is that just like sort of the run of the mill training at the Sportatorium?
What what is that? I actually I haven't seen that.
I'd love to get it to you.
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to see that. Because Eddie or CWF they used to film in different places like if there is an angle, I say, we were going to do an angle in Jacksonville. Or something. You know, there'd be a camera there filming. You may have heard the story about Ernie Ladd and the Tire Irons with the
original brothers. Well that's because they were filming in Jacksonville and Ernie was doing a job on his way out, and he in the office promised him that, you know, he wouldn't be filmed doing a job, and there the camera was. You know, they would just have one hard shot up higher up and maybe you know, like in the cheaper seats somewhere in there, and you know, just film, like I said, from one angle. But Ernie saw that red light and that's what caused that incident.
So they would deploy video camera to spot show so to speak, if they knew they were going to shoot an angle, but not every time. So that was kind of like they tell exactly.
So you know, unfortunately, gat there were so many great matches that were never filmed. Oh yeah, oh gosh, just tremendous matches that were just were never filmed. I mean you can go back and look at some stuff with like Dori Fonk Junior and Jack Brisco in the Bayfront Center and some good things like god, I don't know why they preserve. Probably those are preserved because they were filmed separately from the standard studio wrestling shows.
Yeah, that's an NWA world title match, so there's interest across the country and having video of those probably, Yeah.
And championship wrestling from Florida also went into New York, Yes, which was big, and it allowed Eddie and Vince Senior to work together a lot.
Yeah, that's very evident, especially in the seventies when you see Dusty going back and forth to the Garden and then a lot of guys from down there and eventually Terry. So when you guys came back to the locker room in Chieflin after that rib was played on you, what happened when you went to the curtain. Were you guys hollering at people? Were they, you know, cracking beers and saying congratulations, you just got initiated. How did that go?
I remember there was a tounnel laughter. Everybody was belly laughing, And I was really mad at the Briscos because I knew they did it. I mean, they just they couldn't pass up any kind of a rib and they didn't want to fess up to it, of course, but that was that's all I really remember is they were just laughing at me and I couldn't hardly walk. I was so tired and just drug out and beat up. It was worse than a street fight, and it was it was. It was really funny for the boys. So I'm glad they.
Got But did you get in anybody's face? Did you scream at anybody even in the days following?
No way, no way. One too hard to get to that spot. So this is gonna take any kind of crap they gave me, understood.
One thing Terry says in his book, his second book, about this whole episode is You mentioned he was writing with Pat beforehand, and he got acquainted with Pat at this point in time. He tells a whole story about how Pat also ribbed him saying, you know, you got
to blow me to get into the business. And then but I'm just kidding, and then we get to the building and if I'm so, if you don't do that, then after the match, all the boys are going to grab you in the shower as part of that's what happened. That's the initiation in a wrestling and Terry talks about that being very much on his mind when he went back to the curtain after wrestling you fantasy reality? What do you say?
That sounds like that exactly like that? He was terrible. He was terrible the last time I saw how Heroes? Why do you keep playing so hard to get? That? Turns me on?
Do you remember Terry ever being kind of shook up mentally because of that? Because he talks about it in his book like it really freaked him out, but he talks about a lot of things like that really freaking him out.
Yeah, he didn't like it at all. I mean he could, I could deal with it, but he didn't like He really didn't like it. He didn't like to be ribbed. He didn't like anything about that part of the business.
Was he like me?
Was he afraid that maybe, oh go ahead please, I was probably gonna go down the same thing. I mean, it sounds like he it seems like, I don't know, he didn't like things kind of being like just kind of jumped up on him, like you know, almost like something coming from behind and and and like surprising him.
Is that is that true?
I mean, it's based on what you're saying and what we've read that he just didn't like those kinds of surprises kind of made a little paranoid almost.
Yeah, it did, and that's very true. He was he just wanted everything above board. You wanted to know what's going on. He didn't want no surprises.
You know, I want to know who's talking to who I got you?
Yeah? Yeah, so oh god, that brings so many memories. You guys are awesome. He's a lapsed fan wrestling podcast with Jack and m JP Sorrow. He's a lapsed fan wrestling podcast.
Well, I mean, I hate to go here, Brian, but I mean a lot of people have said this about Pat and I always wondered if if he just says it's a rib when the guy says no, and he actually if the guy said yes, uh, it would become much more real very quickly. I mean, I don't want to be impolitic about it, but I always wonder a
lot of guys have this story about him. And of course Terry Garvin like, do you think Pat, like if if Hulk wasn't terrified by the suggestion, or wasn't wasn't saying absolutely not the suggestion, that he still would have called it a rib. I'm just messing with you.
Yeah, you mean Pat saying I was just ribbing with you.
Yeah, he says, I'm just ribbing when someone says no. But if someone says yes, does he still say I was just ribbing you. If you get my point.
No, no, no, no, I've seen him in bed with I'm not going to name the guy him. His boyfriend was Louis don Darrah.
Yeah.
Yeah, My wife and I used to go over to their house on occasions, and Louis was a great cook. And I always liked Pat. I mean, Pat was a great friend of mine. And you know, he hit on me several times when he realized, you know, that he was barking up the wrong tree, but he was still cool with me. I mean he always and he was a wealth of knowledge. So I love to just pick his brain. And you know, I saw some matches with
him and Ray Stevens were a tremendous tag team. Yeah, and they were over a big time in California and other places. But Pat was a wealth of knowledge obviously. You know, he's been the booker all over. He was actually the booker in Florida for a while.
Yeah, So he was helping Johnny Valentine when Terry Brooke.
Right right, he was assistant booker. So anyway, Yeah, No, he he was serious every time he propositioned somebody, and he Pat was so smooth that he always had a way to make if he feel felt like he made somebody uncomfortable that he liked, he would go out of his way to or say the right things to. I'm just riven, you know the kind of things.
Do you remember, because I wasn't clear when you were talking about it, did Terry come to you in particular about Pat? Do you remember him saying anything new about that?
Oh? A couple of times.
He wasn't just a call it for us, because I always wondered if that was something he kept to himself or not.
Well, he told me just about it. Anything he could do to hear. I mean, I have some of the deepest secrets in my heart. Terry and I were so closely. I was in the hospital for three weeks. He called me every day. Wow, every day. I mean I have messages on my phone right now with his voice, and I listened to him often. He was just golly. I was with him the first when he met his wife, Linda. You know, we were we got a went to a
hotel in La and uh, checked in. We were right down the hall from each other, and Terry asked me if I wanted to go to this bar called the Red Onion, and I said, I'm gonna hang out tonight and he said okay, took off and that's where he met his wife Linda. He never showed up door and oh Terry, no Terry, So I didn't know what when did we have cell phones in?
When did you very first meet Terry? Do you remember the first day you? I mean, well, besides seeing him in Ruckus, when did you first meet him and have a conversation with him? I should say, I guess, well, he talked to me.
When I went up and talked to him, I was you know, I had been a bartender at a hooker bar called I swear the mons Venus world famous strip club was back then, it was called the Huddle Lounge, and a guy named Steele Steve Bennett and Rick Casarras, a Chicago bear guy owned the lounge. And it was an actual hooker bar, a gentleman's bar.
They wow and.
Like I said, it's called the Hoble Lounge. And anyway, I was, I was pretty wise beyond my years, and I grew up fast. I lived on my own since I was thirteen. I'm sorry. I had a job since I was thirteen. I lived on my own since I was fifteen. Right before my sixteenth birthday, I moved out. And I haven't been anywhere. I haven't had to rely on anybody, but thank got it. But you know, Terry would tell me so so many things that you know, I mean, you've got my book. You could just read what he wrote.
Yeah, that's true. So when you were bartending there, he would come by. I had asked you when you have very first talked to him.
I don't remember the first time we had the very first time. I know that I had seen him in the armory, but I didn't talk to him there until later. And then then the first time I went into the other place when they went on break, I went up to him. He was really nice. I just told him, hey, man, you got a great look, and I loved the band whatever something like that, and he started talking to me, and that was the very first time we had exchanged words.
And then at the armory after that, later on we would speak and it was like it became a friendship, you know. I mean, he was older than me, a few years older than me. Terry would be seventy two right now.
But so you're talking to him at the armory. So it wasn't a total shock when suddenly he shows up to train at the Sportatorium. It wasn't like, hey, I remember you from Ruckus. Where have you been? You were in touch with him and conversant with him all up until that point.
Yeah, and you know, the Briscoe has helped him out. He always he wanted to be a wrestler. I mean that was his and he told me that he wanted to be a wrestler, and so did I. I mean it was something that we both had in common. We both wanted to be throw wrestlers. And so that's what really sparked our friendship.
Absolutely. So why is some because we're thinking of these early days and we've been laughing as we've gone through all the things Terry said and wrote about this time period. He always brings up Mike Graham. He always brings up Mike Graham didn't like me. Mike Graham was out to get me, or Mike Graham was a jock and I wasn't. And that accounts for why Matt Suda did what he
did to me. Can you can you help us understand why Terry was so preoccupied with Mike Graham, because it seems like Mike Graham, he was much older than Terry. I don't think he were knew Terry in high school, or if he did, it was in passing. Can you talk about that dynamic with Mike.
You know, I really don't know why him and Mike had a lot of friction. He would say some negative things to me once in a while about Mike, but they were kind of shared feelings, you know, like he would call it a midget. He had a midget, you know, main event midget. He should be the midget. Mike was kind of you know, he was a promoter's son, so the owner of the owner's son, Eddie Graham, obviously his son.
He got the big pushes and all that. So and Mike could be he didn't sugarcoat a lot of things. I mean, I liked Mike and I was actually a business partner. Is I don't have anything personally bad to say about Mike, but I'm seeing be a dickhead to a lot of people.
Yeah.
Sure, and he didn't there's something about Terry. I mean, he would never put him over. You know when I say put him over, you know, say good things about.
Her, say good things, not not in the ring, right because I don't think they ever worked a program.
Right, No, no, no, no, no no no, no no no, I mean outside the ring. Do you think that that was talking good? Yes?
Do you think that talking bad about Terry went back to even high school? Or did that only start when Terry tried to break into the business.
That I don't recall. I think it was more of the business. You know, Terry in high school played baseball. He was a good bowler. I just saw a guy, Vic Pettitt.
Oh yeah, we know Vick yep.
Ye, who grew up with Terry in the early early days, so you know, and Vic was a pro bowler. He was on the Pro Bowling Tour. So Terry was into bowling and so for sure just always going to be a wrestler.
Did do you think Terry had a harder time than most coming through the met Pseuda system because of that that lack that that friction with Mike Graham. Do you think that's a fair thing to cite as to why Terry went through what he went through or was that just the way it broke out for him.
No, he because it was it would believe me, guys, it was hard on everybody. Yes, it was brutal. I mean brutal. I can't even we have to get up to doing five hundred push ups, five hundred Hindu squads, one hundred at a time, wrestling for you know, ten twelve. However much gas you had in your tank, he wouldn't say, go till your tongue was hanging out. I'm stopping soil, your tongue was hanging out. And there was absolute till you were a defenseless and then he would go wrestle hook.
Yet after that, oh gosh. It was a brutal system. And then you know, I didn't like to hurt people, but you know, then I became when Bob Roup left, I had to become the enforcer there, and they wanted you to get blood or break something on everybody, and
I didn't like to do that. You know. It just it was easier for me to just make him bleed than hardwise than to break something, because they didn't want the what they call the marks, the fans to go and say, oh I went into it was easy, you know, I went in too be a pro wrestler and tell their friends it was easy. That was Eddie Graham's philosophy.
You know. He would always say, you know, if you ever get your ass kicked by Mark, you're fire, and if you get your ass kicked by one of the other boys, it's okay.
Well, when Terry broke in these early days, we have that footage I mentioned showing how kind of lean he was and how he just didn't have the build that he would get later. But you know, Terry's been very but about it as the years have turned. About Diana Ball and how prominent that was. He was already a gym rat when he was in Ruckus, even before he
became a wrestler. But it seems like when we read between the lines Brian, as far as him going to Coco Beach for a year, taking it off, looking up with ed Leslie, and then coming back through Memphis and stuff, that's when he really got massive. Do you remember Terry using a lot of danaball in that early time when you would have wrestled him or was he a lot less defined? Because he looks big in the pictures in your book, and then other pictures he doesn't look so big.
I'm just trying to figure out when he really jacked that up and became this monstrous presence.
I really don't know. I mean, we never we never talked about steroids much. Oh yeah, very very seldom. It was you know, that was his kind of like own personal yeah deal. I mean I can honestly say, you know, we you know, steroids were never the topic of conversation.
But back then you got to remember, you know, we're in this sportatorium which is already over one hundred degrees, well over one hundred degrees, and there with the big spotlight, no air conditioning whatsoever, and they wouldn't turn the fan on unless Hero couldn't take it anymore. It didn't matter
about anybody else. Or of course when they had the exportatorium notches, they would turn the fans, but it was already so how you did just stand there and get tired, And now you got to remember all the things we're doing. So he didn't have a chance to gain weight. He lost a lot of weight from the first day he was I mean I watched him in a couple months, he must have lost twenty twenty five pounds.
Was fascinating. Wow, he came in bigger than we see him yet, because he does look like someone that's kind of dehydrated as opposed to someone who hadn't put the muscle on yet. And then you see the match, the picture of the match against you, and I mean you remember being in there with a guy with a lot of definition, right, not a guy that was kind of skinny.
No, no, no, a lot of definition. He was cut up absolutely okay, that he was a right shape. Ryan.
Do you have some more time or we run up against your hard stuff. I want to be respectful of your time. No, I'm good, okay, just let let us know. Please don't hesitate. Thank you for that, because I do want to get more into the Matt' suitas stuff. Because
this is another one. When you go through while Cogan's story, there's fifteen different stories, it seems like, and I know you have you been in situations with Jerry where you guys have traded contradictory stories and maybe you were left to think that maybe Hogan had more than one run in with Matt Suda because the version he told you
doesn't match the version Jerry said. Just to recap you know, basically, there's like three places I guess it could have been the Sportatorium, which is where Jerry said that the leg break happened. Matt Suit is Jim, which I believe is where you say you heard it happened, and then Edie, right, and I'm going to get to that, and I just want to be clear on this. Ed Leslie talks in this book about Matt Suda meeting him meeting Hogan at a tailor shop down the street from the Brisco's body
shop that had some mats. Is that tailor shop with the mats the same thing as what you're talking about when you say Matt suit is Jim. Yeah, exactly, all right, so it's only two places then, got it? The tailor shop in the gym are the same place, now that we have that clear. Yeah, So Jerry swears he was there in the Sportatorium, Charlie Leigh, and of course everyone else that was there is dead, so we can't really ask them. And we heard which is part of probably
by design, and they roll near the ropes. You know, Jerry, here's the snap and he was there and you weren't there, blah blah blah, tell us about what you heard.
I wasn't there, of course. Yeah, Yeah, no, Terry, I'm just going by what Terry told me.
And can you just recap for our listeners what Terry has told you.
He just suddenly Matt Sooner turned into a dick. That was what they called him, a dick. He turned into a dick and uh broke my ankle. You know, I don't want to embellish that, but basically turned into a real dick and broke my ankle.
And then later you would say he didn't understand.
He didn't under he didn't he thought it was a real cheap thing, a.
Real cheap thing. Yeah, because he describes it's described at times as Terry is like wrestling around with Matt Suit. And Terry was big, and Terry has stories back in high school of him like taking down the high school wrestling coach because he was so big even though he didn't know how to wrestle. And here he is stuffing. Perhaps Matt Suit is taked down and Matt Suit gets a little pissed off and that's what led to the injury. Is that how you understand it? Yes, yes, that's clear then.
So so that said, just to just to rewind, so this happens in Matt Suit is Jim, and I know that. You know, it's been said that you've confirmed that it wasn't a break. Jerry swears it wasn't a break of a bone or an ankle or anything like that, that it was just a sprain. Did you remember anything more specific as far as what actually happened to Terry's.
Like he just said he broke my ankle.
Hmm, that's what he said. Did you do you think it was less severe than that?
I can't say because I wasn't there. I don't want to, you know, ambolish. Sure, Oh that's fair, spread anything that's false. Yeah, so that's all I can really say.
That's fair. Yeah, Jerry would come around and say it. You know, it wasn't a break. It was just a really bad, you know, spraining and they looked at X Ray's or whatever and things like that.
But that could have been you know, and I'm sure you know, even Terry talking to me telling me the story, he could say, a break sounds better than a really bad strain, you know what I mean. It's banger. It's still he's still telling the truth basically because he can't walk on it, so it's broken.
Yeah, Yeah, he doesn't have to be a doctor, you know what I mean? Absolutely? Yeah, did you talk to him about this years after it happened or do you remember hearing about it when it happened?
No, it was probably gosh, oh, I don't know, maybe a year afterwards. Sure, it wasn't right afterwards.
Did do you hold open the possibility that there were two separate things that Jerry's talk about one ankle injury and you're talking about another. That sounds very unlikely to me. But I don't know, No, I don't.
I don't think so. I think I don't know why Terry would tell me well, beefcake or that it was there and it wasn't. But I'm not going to call it Gerald a liar. But although I've caught him and had to give him proof on a couple of things.
Obviously, Well it's wrestling, like you said, whereas and you can imagine you guys are in the business, you guys know each other and can't figure out half the time, we as fans have no clue. We just know that these two things can't be true at the same time, or very unlikely to be true. Yeah, it'd be one thing if it was just some guy, but we're talking about whul Hogan story here, So like the biggest star ever, these little details, people don't stop talking about them as
you can appreciate. So I wanted to ask you, I have a theory here, tell me if I'm if you think I'm off here, I kind of think looking at all this, that Jerry and Jack to some degree were part of the whole Mike Graham mentality of like, this guy's kind of a goofball. He's clumsy, he's big and everything, and while he does stand out, we kind of wouldn't
mind if he kind of quit. At the same time, they didn't see much in him, and years later Jerry would change the story around to make it seem like, you know, they were just trying to test Terry but saw big money in him, and that Terry bolted because he wasn't getting bookings. And then Jerry has a story about how I was given you bookings, Terry, but I was given them to your mother and she wasn't passing. That sounds like the kind of story you make up, you know what I mean.
Ruth was a wonderful woman, Terry's mom. Both Pete and his dad and his mom Ruth were tremendous people. I They're at the top of my list for parents, great parents. And Ruth would never ever not tell Terry something. I mean, she couldn't wait to tell him anything. She was more excited about his career than he was, So I can't see her not giving him bookings.
Got it. Yeah, that rhymes to me. It sounds like, you know, Hulk Hogan became Hulk Hogan, and anybody who didn't see that in him early kind of has egg on their face, including potentially the Briscoes. So you have to make up these little stories along the way to counteract Terry's story that he didn't get bookings, when in reality, when you look at the match listings, he didn't. He never worked the Hesterly Armory and he was really kind
of spread out a lot. I'd imagine when Terry talks about being frustrated by how much road work he had to put in, how many miles he had to put in without getting a lot of money, that that's probably true.
Yes, yeah, well we did. I mean we would go do three TV tapings and I think we got twenty five bucks twenty five or thirty five dollars for that. We worked a lot of shows for fifty bucks barely cover your gas, it was. And then they'd always tell you it's not how much how much you make, it's how much you save. Kid, Right, well, Kerry.
Can't save much when you're when you're spending it all on gas going to and from the That's hilarious.
Exactly exactly how much how much would Terry get taken advantage of by the other boys? Taking advantage of is probably the wrong way to put it, but you know what I mean, jumping in his car and making him pay for the ride, Harley Harley Ray, smashing beer cans on his head, And was he kind of the butt of jokes when he's driving these guys around the territory in that first year?
You know, I was it actually with Terry then? And nobody's going to say these guys just rebeated that, well would they? You know, they'll say they ribbed him.
But I.
There's a lot of guys that tried to borrow money from him and things like that, if that's what you mean, and didn't didn't pay him back. Yeah, it's uh, there's a lot of people that took took advantage of him like that.
Yes, wow, Yeah, just on the road, Terry front me some money and then you'd never heard from him again. Yep. Well, he talked about that with his in a second book. He talked about that even with his estranged brother Kenny, who's actually from a prior for Yeah, I was.
Gonna I was gonna ask about if you actually but you go finish up. I was going to ask if you knew if you ever spent much time with either of of of Terry's brothers.
I was with Terry when Alan, Well, I met Alan first in l A.
Then you're already at w w F. Yeah.
Yeah, when we were in w w F is when I met Alan. And I actually went with Terry when Allan died, and he was torn up about that. Sure, I never met Kenny.
Never met Kenny, No, I don't. I don't think Terry has met him very very often. But he does tell a story this book about how one time, when Terry hit it big, he blent Kenny some money and didn't pay him back. So Terry h correct me if I'm wrong. Brian kept very close notes about who stiffed him on on owed money. For sure.
Oh, he had a memory like an elephant. Terry had the greatest memory I've ever seen is that movable memory? Oh, yes, tremendous memory.
Do you think some memory accounts for why he's so you know what I mean, so cognizant of like being taken advantage of and so afraid of it, or so cautious I should say afraid might be too strong a word, but so cautious about being taken advantage of, because he remembers every little thing where anyone ever like crossed him, anyone ever screwed him.
Yeah, I think he totally remembers that. It's one thing I feel good about. I've never asked him for a nickel. And even though I don't get me wrong, he's bought in a lot of dinners and stuff. Sure, my wife and I and my family, he's he's been. He won't let you pay. I mean in the later years, of course, in the earlier years it was was different. But even when he first went to ww F, my wife and I went to their home him Linda, when they first got Mary bought at condom in Connecticut, and it wasn't
it wasn't a condo. It was an actual house, but it looks like it looked like a condo type area. It's It was separate and detached and it was a nice place. But him and Linda were going to fly somewhere, so he and I had to go somewhere else. We had been there for like four or five days, and he gave me his car. He let us use his car.
I guess we had to go to New York or something and he was going across to La or something, a long way, so he had he just had a car take him to the airport and men Linda and left his car for me. I mean he was always talking to look out, not just for me. I mean he looked out for a lot of people. And he was very generous. Uh when he when Terry started making money, he was really generous with the people that he liked.
Uh.
You can't say enough nice things about that. I was ever like a cheap son of Evan, you know.
No, no, no, not cheap, but just very He kept score as far as.
Absolutely absolutely if somebody him he didn't, you know, he'd still talk to him, but you weren't going to get anything.
I think he takes the shots at everything. But over across his two books, I think everyone who's ever screwed him, he calls him out somewhere in very in very subtle ways, like you said, but he gets he gets those receipts in for sure. You agree. Okay, let me just ask you a couple more, Brian Dusty. Okay, Dusty was the king in Florida when Hogan came up. Hogan's always talked
about how much Dusty influenced him. We know, Dusty's all over Florida TV as well as New York TV at that time, cutting these amazing promos against Superstar and Graham's coming back with promos. If you put the two together, You've got Hogan's promo styles, so you can see how influential they were on him as a as a younger wrestling fan. But you know, I'm going through Dusty's book and everything Dusty's ever said about Hogan at that time,
and it's there's almost nothing. He called him the yellow foam finger guy or something he kind of uses like a term that's dismissive of him, and he seems to celebrate in his book. Dusty does that that Hogan never wrestled at the hesterly that that's kind of something Dusty holds up over Hogan did, did Dusty really was he dismissive of Terry in those early days? Was he one of those guys that didn't see it and then maybe later changed his story about how he felt about Terry.
Yes, yes, And I liked Virgil. He was Dusty's I enjoyed Dusty. He was always fun to be around, always entertaining. I really really liked him. And for some reason, he was very jealousy Terry.
Yeah, and it's just the way it was. Did that jealousy come out when Terry hit a big in New York? Are you saying even in the very beginning, because Terry was so big.
Well, Dusty extremely intelligent, he knew the business so so well. I mean, too many people knew the business as well as Dusty start to end, and we're as creative and innovative. I can't say enough good things. As far as Dusty's talent, it was amazing. But he protected his kingdom. But Terry did the same, you know. I mean, when you get up on top, I'll give you an example. And I will never say anything bad about Terry because this is
but this is not bad. It may be controversial. Jesse Ventura wanted to start a union and he got my partner convinced my partner at that time, jumping Jim Burunzone. I mean, he still do a lot of stuff, do the wrong another six seven times this year. But you take out that people still like this. Old guys said Dusty would well that does see. I'm let me go back to Jesse. I think about Jesse. I mean Dusty when I'm talking about Jesse Jesse Ventura. You guys probably
heard this story. But he wanted to start the union. Talk Brunziella into it, a few other people, and I said, I said, Jimmy's harper, I'm calling we got to start a union. We got nothing. We got nothing. I mean, this is one of the reasons I run the charity for progress. But they call it from rally come. But I said that there is no way you can start a union unless you get home and Manchel, you need to get from the middle of the card up. Otherwise
it's just not gonna work. Oh yeah, welcome on. And I said, no, Well, anyway, Terry wound up tell events.
Yes, And.
You know that's a prime example of protecting. He wanted to protect his spot, yes, right, which I'm glad he did because he made us a ton of money. He made us all a ton of money.
And I mean I made.
I made over two fifty just in my two hundred and fifty thousand dollars I was making right at, right at and over two hundred fifty thousand dollars plus my my merchandise money in you know, the eighties.
I mean that's a lot of money now, let alone then yeah, yeah, So that's a great example. So you have Hogan there, like, you know, even if he was against the union, but to your point, like, you know, if all the boys unionized, then everybody's pay would be the subject of collective bargaining. In Hogan's pay probably would have a scene on it compared to what he could
make if there wasn't such a thing. So that's you know, fair play to him as far as what worked for him in that position at that moment, you know, pushing against unionization. And you know, maybe that's one of many things he learned from Dusty right that if you're going to be the top guy, you also have to make little strategic moves along the way to make sure no one else knocks you off your perch.
Absolutely, I couldn't have said that matter. That's exactly right.
So do you think Dusty had an opinion about Terry even back when he first broke in was wrestling you in Chiefland? Or do you think Dusty barely cared about Terry until he became a big star.
I don't know that, because you know, Dusty was never vocal about that, and I never saw him say anything derogatory. But you know, what goes on in the office, nobody really knows. So I know that he was, you know, derogatory towards him later on when Terry really hit it big, But in the beginning, I'm not sure. Yeah, there was somebody in the office. Somebody didn't Mike had to be Mike.
There's probably Mike, let's be honest. Yeah, I mean, I mean the reason I know, the reason I would say that is because that's or Terry would point too. I would think if you if you cornered him, I mean, he brings it up often. But I was curious about that because you know, I think a big part, an undertold part of Terry's story, Brian is who actually saw him? Did anyone really see star in him? Or did everyone make up that they saw star in him after he became one?
I think it was more after he became one and then yeah, once he you know, the Thunderlips deal, you know, really put him on the map, you know, the move doing that movie really really really bolstered his career. It was a very wise thing to do, very wise, no question, you know. But I I knew, I knew Terry was going to be a star very early because he just had it all. You know, he could hearing him imitate Dusty and the things that I saw him do and could do in the ring. He was just charismatic. He
he was like a step ahead. You know, he grew up street smart. You can get all the college education you want, but there's nothing like street smart. When you're street smart, it just helps in everything. And you just got to survive the street. But you know, he was in and bars every night, dives in different places, and he saw a lot of things young and that helped him, you know, be the person that he is. Was. Uh, he just you know, took all that stuff and became
hul Kog. And what he learned from Dusty and Superstar Billy Graham. He loves Superstar Billie Graham was Yeah, he loved watching that.
Yeah, we're going to get to the point where it seems like after Hogan goes to Coco Beach with ed Leslie and gives up the business for a year and then comes back that his first phone call wasn't Jerry and Jack, it wasn't Eddie Graham. It was one thing though, did you hear any any stories about the Cocoa Beach period? Have you ever heard any stories about that?
I don't recall at the second.
This just seems just from what we've kind of uncovered, it seems like they're like a lot of stuff. Yeah, he had a colorful run out there with Eddie Leslie. So and he really he really cut ties with Tampa like he was and doesn't sound like to people that don't know Florida, like it's that far away. But but that's like a real, like I'm.
Leaving this business behind potentially kind of move.
Yeah. Yeah, he was fed up. I know, That's what he told me. He was just fed up and tired of the backstabbing. It was just, you know, wanted to do his own thing for a while. Yeah.
Yeah, that definitely becomes clear in what I was saying, was that when he decides to dip his toe back into wrestling the way he tells the stories, he called Superstar and then he gets hooked up with Louis Tulay in Gulf Coast. He doesn't go back to the circuit. He ends up back in Florida and circulation eventually, but his first phone call a Superstar. Then we know where that goes. We'll see, we'll see how that all factors in when we get there. But I want to leave you, Brian,
with that question about you know what frustrated Terry. You kind of got there already to to leave. I mean, if you were to be as specific as you can be with us about why Terry ultimately decided to not only quit Championship Wrestling from Florida that first time, but quit wrestling altogether, what would you tell us? What do you really think bothered him the most about his first experience in the business, That.
They were just keeping him down and not using and not trying to be creative with him, not trying to do anything with him, just keeping him down, putting him, you know, keeping him out the opening match, second match, you know, just not giving him a break and not showing him a future.
And and why do you think they weren't doing that probably jealousy, jealousy about what I mean, he hadn't done anything in the business yet.
Yeah, but he had all the tools. I mean he looks what they did with me. I mean, became two times Florida heavyweight champion. I was hvery champion, Southern eavyweight champion, two time tag team champion, and you know, worked with Flair and Funk and uh so, you know, and I couldn't hold Terry's jockstrap as far as putting people in seats, and that's what it's all about. He had that flare, that charisma that just was so you nique, you could just a blind man could see it.
He just.
Granted he wasn't Hulk Hogan then, and he wasn't uh nearly as polished, and he, you know, Hulk Hogan became. He kind of turned hop Hogan a piece by piece into what he was, you know, from saying the prayers the right promo was saying the prayers, taking the vinumin. I mean, he could do a promo on the drop of a dime, that was and he had that look
that you know, look at Hogan. He I mean there's a guy six six h son tan built unbelievable, handsome, He's got everything, I mean all the tools, he's athletic, h and he just he was so unique and so entertaining that people flocked to see him. And it's very you know, nowadays they can you can take half the card. I would say half of the card you could take right now in WWE and make them the top draw because of all the props and gimmicks and storylines they
have in all the different ways. Back then, you couldn't do that. They didn't have all the all the lights, the pazazz and all that stuff.
Now granted, you know, he go look at the A w A where he got over like huge, huge, I mean that caused vern Gania's whole territory, so you know, and that was a great, great territory, one of the best territories in America during the Territories DA Territory days, and Hogan was it was he was the draw.
But and you know, he didn't have the the luxury of all the production value that WWE has now. Can you imagine if he had that.
Then, oh god, I think what I'm coming around to finally here, Brian in trying to understand this whole thing, and hearing you tell it, I think you really clicked it in. For me is that the reason so many people who are around when Terry first broke into the business could lay claim later to saying they always saw a superstar in him is because of those attributes that you're speaking of, the height, the promos, the charisma, the look which was evident on stage with Ruckus, let alone
in the wrestling business. But I guess the second part of that is, yeah, you can say you saw star in him from the beginning and tell the truth. But the second part of that is what did you do in response to that? Did you consider him too much of a threat and try to drum him out and come up with excuses around initiations to do that, or
did you lean in? And I think it's very clear that the decision makers at Champs, depressing from Florida at the time Terry broke in, did not lean in, did not try to do anything substantial with him and shows, and chose to see him as more of a threat than a potential cash cow. Agreed, all right, we've jp. I think we actually achieved a thesis here. I think so too. I think so too. That was amazing all right, Well, Brian, appreciate you. I'm so glad you took the time for us.
And as you mentioned, and I failed to mention at the beginning, Brian is also president of the Cauliflower Alley Club, which longtime fans will know is such an important organization for retired wrestlers, for wrestlers in their sunset years, and that the convention that you guys do always seems to be such a nice occasion and it's really a feel good part of a business that can be very unkind to these wrestlers when they retire. So I want to
thank you for that service as well. Maybe one day we'll see you at one of those things, and I want to thank you so much for taking the time here on the LABS.
Fan absolutely got a great program. Keep it up, guys. Email is a production of the Lab Entertainment Group. Its content is intended for private use only. Phil Say, we wanted si