***EXTRA*** TLF Tackles Who Killed WCW: Kevin Eck

And welcome back to TLF Tackles Who Killed WCW. It's an extra edition here after having taken in all four episodes of the Vice TV docu series on the death of World Championship Wrestling, we hear it a elapsed fan, or rather excited to bring you a special guest who had what I think will be a unique vantage point on the collapse of WCW, and very much looking forward to

getting into it with him. Kevin Eck was editor of the WCW magazine from March two thousand until the very end of the company in two thousand and one, and was writing and organizing the magazine right up until the final day and even perhaps a bit beyond in terms of when we think of the doors actually shuddering entirely at World Championship Wrestling. Kevin was also a writer on wrestling and other sports at the Baltimore Sun and has also done stints in a creative capacity

at WWE and Ring of Honor. Kevin, it's great to have you on the show, man. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, it's great to be here. Like I said, I really appreciate the invite, So I am really excited to talk to you, because I was a subscriber in the days you took the magazine over and was really into the direction

you took it. But remember the Wow magazine too. Suddenly we were doing shoot interviews almost in a cafe magazine, and I wonder for you to start there for me, because two thousand was a time when, you know, with Russo and Bischoff coming together, everything the company, the products started leaning more into the shoot thing, and what you were doing in the pages of the magazine really seemed to match that. If I'm right there, that's correct.

When I first came on and started, as you said, March of two thousand, the magazine before I got there had been sort of a it was like a hybrid. I would describe it as there was no real direction. They had some storyline articles and then they had others that were out of character and more shoot articles. And when I came in, you know, I talked to the publisher, who was a guy named Kenker, and I said to him, I said, I think we just, you know,

we need to decide on a direction. It can't be half and half because as as a fan reading this, what are we doing? Are we breaking the fourth wall? Or are we sticking to TV only storylines or it's confusing and w W at the time, I think had they had WW magazine and they had RAW Magazine and they decided to take If you'll remember at the time, I think WW magazine was their KFE mag and Raw was a shoot. It was basically a shoot magazine. And I said, let you know,

we're not we don't have two magazines, we only have one. So let's make it. Let's make a decision. He said, well, you're the editor, what do you want to do? And I said, I think you know, the the toothpas is out of the tube at this point, I mean, wrestling at that point was openly admitting to being entertainment. There were you know, shoot interviews were becoming a thing. You know, more people probably read The Wrestling Observer than at any point, or we're aware of

it. So I said, let's not insult people's intelligence. Let's make this a shoot magazine. And I think, you know, to me, the after mags as they were called at that point, I mean they were I thought, you know that that wouldn't be something as a wrestling fan in two thousand and I would necessarily want to read right, I want to know the behind the scenes stuff. Kate Babe was wasn't dead, but it's certainly you

know, the business had been quote unquote exposed. So that's the decision we made at that point, was to go in that direction and talk about, you know, let's take people behind the curtain and let's you know, use guys and girls real names, and let's talk about real relationships and almost in some sense, you know, the publisher Ken he described it as almost like a lifestyles magazine, like let's make it like who are these people behind the

characters, Let's show the fans who who you know, who is Bill goldbergof well, he's the guy that owns muscle cars. So we went out to Bill's house and shot him and you know, all of his collection of muscle cars. I mean, those were the kinds of things we were doing at the time. I love it. I love it. So that sets a perfect table for us here in terms of discussing the downfall of WCW, because you know, the key characters are Eric Vince Russo, Hulk Hogan and some

of the other executives like your Brad Siegels and such. Towards the tail end, Siegel had, you know power. He was of course the one that

put Russo and Bischoff together right at the time you're starting the magazine. So I have to ask where you were sitting, you know, doing in depth interviews with Eric Bischoff in the pages of the magazine about coming back and then buying the company, about Hulk Hogan coming back in two thousand and trying to you know, get a sense of comfort around this, this new Russo direction, editing the magazine through Bash at the Beach two thousand and all of the

things that went wrong in two thousand and the false hopes of the Fusian media thing. What was it like editing the magazine when everything, you know, you had this unique access and this permission to publish that kind of material at a time time when it was incredibly newsy, and you also kind of felt the walls closing. And I suppose for the company we were working for, well, that's for sure. I mean when I accepted the job, Kevin Sullivan was the booker at the time, Yeah, and I had nothing to

do with the booking. I was strictly hired to be the editor of the magazine. But when I accepted the job. Kevin Sullivan was in charge, and if you'll recalled at that time, and this is no offense to Kevin Sullivan, who in his own you know right, was a was a great booker in his day. But at that point the product was just not exciting. Oh terrible. This is This is after Russo got aust did for the first time for the tank Abbot Debacle in January two thousand and Sullivan had the

book for about three months. They did the Hogan Strap match. I mean, you just you don't have to tell any of our listeners how awful it was. We get it. Yeah, it was bad. And so I

walked into it. No, I some of my friends, you know, when I accepted the job, and I was at the Baltimore Sun for about fourteen years at that point, and you know, I'm a Baltimore guy and I never envisioned myself ever moving you know, to Atlanta, Georgia or anywhere else, and thought I'd stay at the Sun, you know, till the

day I retired. And you know, some people said, you know, why would you want to you know, people who were aware of the wrestling war at the time, They're like man w cw Is it's in the tank, like it's terrible, And I said, yeah, but this business is cyclical, and all it takes is, you know, you never know what's going to happen, what set of circumstances. You know, one great storyline could catch fire, and who knows, they could be back in the game.

Even if they never overtake w C or overtake WW again, they could at least be better than it is right now and gain some of their audience back or whatever. So I went in there kind of hopeful in that sense. And then like a week after I started, Sullivan was ousted and they announced that, you know, Russo and Bischoff are going to come back and both run the company. And I'll be honest, I was excited at the time. I thought, you know, this is what like the direction we

were going with Sullivan was was just not good. It just wasn't interesting. And I thought, Okay, you know Russo and Bischoff together, you know, both of them had you know, Russo had his success at WW when

he was head writer. Bischoff obviously had success with WCW when they were number one for eighty three straight weeks and the nWo and all that put these two guys together and man, this could be exciting, and I think there was really a lot of optimism, but that optimism died pretty quickly, I think once the New Blood storyline kicked off. I mean, at first, again, it was exciting because it was so different than what had become so boring

and wrestling one oh one and just outdated programming under Solvan. Here we are okay, It's like you don't know what can happen every week. Like that kind of thing was exciting. But what I learned was just, you know, Russou and Bischoff together was oil and water. It wasn't gonna work. And Russo the more that I was actually around him and I guess we can get into this, you know more, I just realized, like he really

doesn't know what he's doing, Like he's a one trick pony. And he was in WWE at the right time with the right ideas when when the company needed a shot in the arm and needed to take things to you know, to the extreme, and he had Vince McMahon there kind of being his editor. I mean know people have talked about this, you know, at the when what is the trick Kevin Uh? He knows crash TV and that's it. He knows one way to book, which is you know, and I

know he's referenced it many times as Jerry Springer crash TV. You know, this is what he's good at. And it worked when he was in WW because that it was just the climate was right for it. WW had been so you know, homogenized in family entertainment and here we are now in the midst of these Monday night wars and and WCW is going in a more realistic direction with the NW and all that, and it was it was perfect. Russo knew that's where WW needed to go, and he convinced Vince McMahon that's

what they needed to do. Now. Look, it also helped that you had unbelievable talent there like the Rock and course Steve Austin and Mick Foley, and then you know you had the right players. But then I think, you know, it's it's been proven when you've taken Russeau out of that environment. You put him in WCW where he was in charge, it was terrible.

You put him in TNA when he was in charge. My opinion, with a very talented roster, TNA was never as good as it could have been because Russo just again he knows one way to book it's shock TV, and had that much changed in two three years since he was in WWF that it wouldn't work at WCW Or is it perhaps not even that he had a

mastery of that. I think it's just because it was so disjointed. It's like, it's okay to do you know, even if you're going to do crash TV and anything can happen, there still has to be some structure to it. Yeah, and some thinking as to where are we going, how do we get there, what do we do when we get there? And I just saw one example after another of Russo booking show to show with no long term vision and let's try to pop rating this week, brot, just

do this crazy thing. Yeah, oh it didn't work. Well, next week, we'll do this crazy thing. And it just got to be It was just horrible storytelling. But as the editor of the magazine, it was a real challenge because you know, there's some lag time of when you put out in mage. I was going to say absolutely, yeah, I mean, you can't say the World Champ is going to be this guy in June, let's put him on the cover. You have no idea exactly exactly.

And that's what we were tesked with, was how do we kind of stay ahead? And so we would have meetings with Russo and and try to like, Okay, Vince, you know, I mean, it's all on your head, right, You're the guy, You're the creative genius. Here, you tell us where should we go with the magazine. Here's the date it's going to come out. Who should be on the cover, who should we

be focusing on with stories in the magazine? And he would give us a direction, and by the time the magazine came out, it was no longer the direction, and and the cover looked ridiculous because it just didn't It didn't go with what was on going on on TV. So do you have a particular cover you remember, Kevin that was incongruous that way? I mean, oh man, I'm trying to think specifically, but I think one was which was just before I started. I think like Vince's new nWo. It might

have been the issue right before I came on. I was like the nwo's new version, whatever version it was, Russo's version. Yeah, it ended already like dissolved, and maybe some injuries played a part. Maybe that wasn't totally you know, his fault, but it was just an ongoing thing of you know, we would have these meetings and he would say, here's what we're doing, bro, and he would go down this story, this very detailed storyline, and then we would meet with him again next week and he'd

be he'd say something completely different. We'd be like, Vince, you said last oh no, we're not doing that. Now we're doing this. And so I was just like, man, this guy is just like to me, I'll never take away the success he had in WWE, because you know, it's it's proven. You know, the Attitude era was incredibly successful,

and there's no doubt that he played a huge part in that. But what I saw in WCW was just a guy who was so scatterbrained and it was just he just he didn't know how to tell stories in a logical fashion. Did you work at the magazine with anybody else in that capacity that you could compare and contrast to, like Bischoff in the Last Days or is Russo really your only touch point for like sitting down and helping play in the magazine well,

after Russo left, I guess the second time Ed Farrar. There was a committee after that that was kind of led by Ed ferrah And and what I can say about Ed is he was you know, I know he and Russo are kind of always mentioned together, but he seemed to be, at least in my experience, he was the complete opposite of Russo in that he understood here's how we build a storyline. Like it was just it's not like very complicated, it's just, you know, here's where we want to go.

Uh, here's where we expect to be a month from now or two months from now. And of course things can always change, but there's a structure to it. And the TV was episodic and it flowed in a way that made sense. And and there were times, you know, I would even at times, you know, say to Russo like, well what about you know, he would say we're doing this, and I'd say, yeah, but last week we did this and that ah, nobody remembers yeah,

wrestling, they don't they don't know, they don't care. And I'm like, he'd like he would always say, you know, it's wrestling, like like wrestling doesn't have to have logical storytelling. Now it was I'm fascinated by this, Kevin, because Russo used to do something that I used to really lean into and try to understand why he would do it. He go on WCW Live all the time. He'd do phone ins with like, you know, fans and like talk about ratings and talk talk about what he was doing

with the book. I'd imagine as someone who used to edit wwf' magazines. You know we already meant them. Brusso was from the magazine world. Was he hands on leaning in with your operations as well, or was the the WCW Live enough of sort of like the address the public part of his approach to the job. Yeah, he really didn't give us much direction. It would it would mainly be us meeting with him on occasion and asking for direction.

And you know, one of the first things he said was, you know, he claimed that Sable on the cover of Raw magazine was the highest selling you know, it out sold anything with Steve Austin on it or whatever. And he basically said, you know, I would put I would get the girls on the cover as much as possible, wearing as little as possible.

And that's and so that's you know, I don't think we put a lot of women on the cover, but we certainly started doing the the photo shoots, which I mean, i'll use the word risk gay, but they, I mean they were pretty tame, I think in comparison to some other things. We started doing a monthly feature where we would, you know, do a photo shoot with a Nitro girl or one of the girls on the

roster. But you know, he would say, like I just certain things that he would say to me stuck out, and like before I say this, I mean no disrespect to the WCW talent, but Russo actually told me one time that Booker t is going to be our rock, but he's even more charismatic than the rock, and Steve Austin is or I'm sorry, Scott Steiner is going to be our Steve Austin. But you know, bro, I've worked with both of them, and Steina is even better than Austin,

and Medesia was going to be our stable. I mean, these are all things that he said. Whether or not he believed them, I don't know, but you know, and I like all three of those I worked at those people, all of them I worked you know, I love Scott Steiner,

I love Booker t and Madesia was a sweetheart. And hey, nothing against them, but I'm sorry they weren't the rock Austin and stable, right, And and instead of trying to make them that, why not, why not just you know, make them their own try to get the most out of them. He was trying to build like a counterpoint. You know, they have China, we have Asia, they have this, we have you know, it just it just it was. It was comical to some of

the things that came out of his mouth. I mean, we had so much fun around the office just imitating Russo and his voice and his cadence and just some of the ridiculous things that he would say. Wow, And I mean it was it was good for a laugh, but you know, it wasn't really good for business. He's an lapsed fan wrestling podcast with Jack and

and j Pisarro a lapsed fan wrestling podcast. So, Kevin, any other Russeau ideas that you remember being particularly memorable for lack of a better term, Uh, one that really that really sticks out is Russo kept saying that we need a uh, we need some kind of publicity stunt. And this is actually what he's I recall him very specifically saying, I know I'm doing my job. I know the storylines are great. You know, I'm doing what I can do, but nobody's watching, nobody knows how great it is.

So we need a publicity stunt. And he's throughout the idea. I guess OJ Simpson this is if you, you know, take take you back to the days of when OJ was still you know, a big thing. This was I guess maybe five years after the trial. I guess OJ had said something like if he gets paid a million dollars, he'll take a lie detector

test on TV or something like. He had made some kind of statement, and Russo said that he wanted us, he wanted w CW to pay him the million dollars and let's have OJ take a lot a lie detector test on live TV. And that was his big idea. That was his big idea, to bring the eyeballs back to w CW so all the fans could see the great storylines that he's that he's putting on TV. And I just remember the internal reaction of just you know, is he serious, Like just the

eye rolling, and like I was personally offended. Because I was like, Okay, without getting too deep here or whatever, but like we're talking about a guy who most people believe, you know, absolutely he butchered two people. Like, let's just say it is what it is. Everybody knows that's what happened. This is a double murderer. We're gonna we're gonna try to

cap like how bad. I was just like, this is if anything's gonna kill the company, this is it like us doing business, us paying O. J. Simpson a prior right a million dollars or whatever the sum would have been to be part of our show as as such a blatant, casteless publicity stunt. This was just like, that's gonna kill us quicker than anything else. I mean, luckily that idea was shot down, but you know, you had the sick of fans and the people who wanted to be on

Russo's good side. Oh yeah, Vince, Oh that's that's great idea. Yeah people, But luckily no one with any kind of power signed off on that. But you know, those were the kind of the kind of things that he would he would pitch. Did you hear that he pitched that or were you in the room when he did I'm trying to get I was in the room when he pitched it. Oh well, he just he pitched it to the magazine staff. He pitched it too. He would have meetings periodically

with a lot of the different departments, public relations, Mark. He would bring us all in a room and he would all get there, you know, Vince's vision of what so everybody could be on the same page and know where we need to go. And he pitched that to the to the room and and everybody looks down at their notepads or everyone pretends it's a great idea

and then talk shit afterwards. How does that go? Yeah? After it was no. I mean I was actually we talked about like just when when the meeting broke up and I was talking about talking about it to other members

of the magazine staff. I was actually hot about it because I was just like, you know, like I don't want to get on my high horse or whatever, but like I draw the line at like doing business with double murderers, you know what I'm saying, Like this is not a good just from a corporate standpoint as a company, that's nothing I want to be associated

with. On a personal level. I don't want the company that I work for to be associated with it, like I mean, this is like I would Probably he's probably pretty lucky that didn't go up the flagpole, honestly, because that would have been. Yeah, the guy who's running UR Wrestling operations wants to do what you know? So are you saying right here now, Kevin Eck that the David Arquette title run was Russo's second idea to get publicity

on USA Today's front page. Well, I guess according to Russo, right, legend is that it was Tony Shivani's idea. Right, Tony pitched it to him, which I don't know. That may or may not be true. But even if Troni pitched it, you know, so what, I'm sure people pitched ideas all the time. Russo is the one that signed off on it, and to be fair, Mischoff was there at the time.

He signed off on it as well. But what still gets me is, obviously it was such a horrible decision, but to this day, any interview I've ever seen with Russo, he will not admit that it was a mistake. He will still say to this day, I would do it all over again. It got us. This is his go to It got us on the cover of USA Today. Okay, great, because that would have never happened had we not done that. Okay, it did you know, something that has its shelf life for twenty four hours and then it ends up in

someone's bird cage. It did nothing for business. It didn't move ratings, and if I'm correct, the pay per view that thought that it built up to was the lowest rated pay per view I think WW had ever had at that point. So there's no WCW cover with David Arquette holding the big old

belt that never made it to the newstands that you had to plan. No, there is not, there's not, and look, you could say what you want like and look I got to interview Arquette a few times then, and even you know, subsequently met him a few times, and Arquet's a

great guy. But you know, we did the movie was ready to rumble, So if I don't, you know, it was great that we had this tie in, and I love the fact that we had him on the shows and he played a part and all that just stop short of putting the title on him, you know, Like even Arquette has said publicly, it was a horrible idea, and it was something that again, it was decided apparently that day at a production meeting to do this, like no long term

thought or what do we you know, nothing, like that's just the way things were done at that point. It'say, oh, it's a great publicity. But it's like, yeah, but it's the wrong publicity. You know, like everyone looked at it as a joke. And you know, Russo would always sort of talk down to quote unquote you know, wrestling fans or wrestling people and say, well, the belt is a prop. You know it's all fake, and well, yeah it is, but but you know

it's an important prop. And and when you when it has no credibility, what are these people fighting for? If the title means nothing, If a guy like David Arquette can hold it, you know, that meant nothing for business. I mean, look, I can buy him the Jake Paul, you know, being a champion, and he brings eyeballs on the product and and he can hold his own and you know that wasn't what David Arquette was and Arquette knew it. You know, I'll never forget the night I was

there, the night had happened it was in Syracuse, New York. Oh boy, And we went to the bar, the hotel bar afterwards, and Rick Flair had told Arquette, you know, when you win the title, you got to buy rounds of drinks for everybody at the bar, right And so Arquette was like, okay. I happened to be sitting at the bar when Arquette walked up in order to drinks, and I had already interviewed him for you know, a piece in the magazine, so he kind of knew

who I was. And as he's waiting like to put in the drink order, he's just like, I'll like, hey, congrats, Champ. And he just like looks down and like gets the sheepish grin and he's like, I can't believe this. He's like, I can't believe this happened. And he goes he goes, man, who are some of the guys that have like never held it? Who should have? And I was like, well, Booker, t, Scott Steiner, I don't remember if I mentioned anybody else at that point, and he just like put his face in his hands.

He's like, oh my god, this this should have never happened, you know, you know, it's wild, Kevin, I happened to know we haven't talked to you beforehand. That didn't get to see all the series yet or any of the series. But in the series, Booker T frames that moment you're talking about as almost taking place in a room where Booker T can hear the conversation, and Booker T pipes up and says, I've never held it, and our Kat is like, you know, mortified at that.

But it sounds like something like Booker's booking his own his own finish there based on what actually happened with you at the bar. Well, he may have said it to me and the Booker you know, I think that's probably probably what happened. You know. Yeah, it's very similar in terms of the the way it plays out, But that's wild. So you remember Garket there in the bar, not sure how he ended up in this position exactly

exactly. It was pretty clear I think personally watching the series on Vice that when Brad Siegel didn't drop Russo after Bash at the Beach two thousand and all the havoc that that created, that Brad Siegel really could give a shit if WCW went away or not. And I know that's kind of a it's kind of a blase thing to say. You know, you Turner didn't want WCW

blow. What was your vantage point on that time period where it was like Russo wasn't hitting him out of the park necessarily, he had very little a show for what he was doing. And we're not just picking on Russo. It's just time period. I mean two thousand, right, I mean, this is what we're talking about, the time period we're talking about. What was your impression in the office. Was it like, yeah, Brad Siegel does not care. I mean, he's not doing anything to reconstitute WCW for

the future here. Yeah, it just seemed like, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. It just seemed like a rudderless ship to us. Who was actually in charge. Brad Siegel was this mystical figure who we always heard about and heard his name but never saw. I never met the man, Oh really never met Brad Siegel. I don't know, you know, we had our own little I don't know how much you know about

the way it was. The office was, the structure was set up, But before I got there, w CW was actually in the CNN building right. But by this time they had moved to this little like a warehouse basically in Smyrna, Georgia. That was the w CW office when I was there. I can't say this for fact about Brad Siegel never stepping into that building, but I can tell you I never saw him in there at any point. Did I ever crossed paths with Brad Siegel in that in that office.

So it was always the sense of, you know, who's really running the ship, who's in charge? If the buck ends with Brad Stiegel, like you said, does he even how invested is he? At this point, Bischoff was brought on as a consultant. Basically he had no I don't think

air. I mean, I don't Again, I don't want to speak for him, but it really seemed like Eric came back because they offered him a deal and he took a paycheck, and it seemed like he knew it wasn't going to work with Russo, and I think he was I don't know how

inspired he really was at that point to turn things around. So look, right after I started, the rumors about the company being sold started almost immediately, and you know, there's a lot of Gallows humor in the office, at least among the magazine staff, of like knowing that our time here is probably going to be limited, Like what's our future going to be, We're going to be sold? Are we going to fold? What's going to happen?

And you know, we just took it kind of day to day and until they tell us to stop putting out the magazine, we'll just keep showing up for work and doing the best we can. And we were one hundred and I could tell you who was invested, and that was us, that was me, that was the entire magazine staff. We got the biggest compliment. And I again, it's been twenty five years since I thought about this.

I can't remember who said it specifically, but someone within the company told our publisher Ken Leiker that really the only thing that's worth a shit that this company does is the magazine. Wow, that's the only good thing that the company's producing right now is the magazine, which is something you know, obviously

we took a lot of pride in sure. So if I have you right there, Kevin, you're saying as early as March of two thousand, the Gallows humor about WCW being sold, was alive and well in the offices. Yes, there was a rumor and maybe you know better than I. Again, it's been twenty five years. I can't recall. There was a rumor that some that WCW was going to be sold to some entertainment company. I want to say they were involved with like SFX. I think SFX. Thank

you, Yes, that was it. That started almost right after I started my job there. Wow. Yeah, that's interesting because when we talk about the saga of WCW, you know, perhaps being bought by someone other than Vince McMahon. Fusian because they had the press conference and actually announced it in JA two thousand and one, takes up all the oxygen in that discussion. So by the time you tell the Fusian story, you don't have time to

mention that there were other there were other names in play. There were other consortiums that put money together. I mean, jee Jerry Jarrett put a deal together. Did you remember hearing anything about that? Him and this guy John Corkoran and Lenita Erickson I think was involved as well. Who was an interviewer there for a brief What do you remember about like other bidders besides Fusian.

Well, the Jerry Jarrett group, as you mentioned, that was the other one, and I think that was there was some optimism there because you know, Jerry Jarrett was a wrestling guy, and Jerry Jarrett had made a lot of money in the business over the years. Now you could say it was on a smaller scale, you know, that's fair. It was territories and all that. But I think there was some optimism that, you know, Jerry Jarrett might be a guy who would who would really help the business,

really helped the company, save the company. You probably know this, Jerry Jarrett was going to be the guy to sort of be the de facto Vince McMahon back in the day as McMahon went to of course went to Jails Steroids

trial. So yeah, I mean, hearing like Eric Bischoff and a group might buy the company, hearing Jarrett was trying to like those were encouraging, Like those were things that we wanted to happen, And there was always this underlying there was this sense that Vince could you know, there were rumors about Vince coming in as well, and we we weren't as optimistic about our future. Vince were to buy the company because we thought, well, we'll probably

all end up out of a job, and that's exactly what happened. Vince bought the company and we were all out of a job. He's a Lapsed fan wrestling podcast with Jack and Carno and jpsos a lapsed fan wrestling podcast. What gear did you kick into when diffusing a deal was announced? I mean you have to cover it. I know you had a big Q and A with Eric I think in the spar issue. Uh, what did it feel like and what did you feel you had to do and did it feel real?

So? I really thought that deal was going to go through because, like you said, it was announced. I mean Eric came in and did that interview with me, and it seemed like I I did not think the deal was gonna you know, I had no reason to believe the deal wasn't

going to go through. But as far as how it affected me personally, you know, I wasn't very optimistic about my future at WCW at that point because the word was that that Eric and Fuchitt were going to really you know, cut costs and and I think there was some speculation of you know, does w CW really need a magazine. Do they have to have a magazine?

And and uh, you know, I think it was going to be a bare bones operation, and and we certainly felt that there was a good chance that we wouldn't be around, or if he did the magazine, he was going to do it, you know, on the cheap or maybe outsort whatever. I mean, I wasn't very optimistic that I'd still working there, But you know, I certainly tried to plant the sea and Eric had we did that Q and A that I'd love to stay on in some capacity.

But you know, I think with Eric and Fushint we had a chance. I'm talking about specifically the magazine. We had a chance to survive and keep jobs. With Vince, there was there was no chance Vince McMahon, right, yeah, yeah, of course. So when you were sitting with Eric, I don't know how particularly you remember that, but it happened at a very fertile time. By the time that interview hit the magazine. Unless I'm mistaken, I think pretty much had already been announced that it was done.

I mean, it was the March issue. I could be wrong about the timeline, But did did Eric convey a real confidence? Did you come away from that interview feeling like he knew what he was doing, or did you feel like because to me when I read it back, there's kind of like a dearth of specifics, which perhaps is to be expected when you're just in a you know, an agreement and principal letter of intent phase, which, come to find out, that's all they really had. They didn't have the

final deal inked. Of course, did you come away from that time interacting with him feeling like this is going to happen, this is going somewhere. I did. And I think Eric has always if anybody's ever had the opportunity to speak with him, be around him, or you know, even if you've just watched him on TV or an interviews, Eric has a great belief in himself. And and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I think that's a good thing. I think he's he's confident in his own abilities and

what he can do. And I think he felt that he had a vision for the new WCW and he felt he had the right partners to get it done, and and there was a plan in place, and it even started on TV. You started seeing there were steps leading up to the new WCW with there were certain wrestlers, big name guys like I think Luger and Nash and Go. They were being taken out on TV and and and the you know, the whole thing that was building too was they were all going to

come back under this new Eric led WCW. So again, I mean, the seeds were being planned on TV. It really felt like, Okay, this is going to lead to something. And look, Eric had a track record of both good and bad as the head of WCW, but there was some good and when it was good, it was really good. So I I think if that would have gone through, would WCW still be around today? I mean, obviously no one knows. You can only speculate, but

I think it had a chance. I am fascinated and I I think you probably know this, Kevin by the second to last issue of the magazine, back cover, the poster WCW the Big Bang. Yep, this is history. This is like a glimpse into what the vision was. I mean, as limited and sketched out as it was for a show beyond what came to be the useful life of WCW. Tell us all about that. I mean

the Big Bang cover do you remember it? Do you know what the deal was putting something on the back cover that was so out in the future. What was the thought there? I mean, yeah, obviously this was going to be the big reboot under Fusion and Eric and you know, as far as us specifically at the magazine, we weren't really given any details other than

what was it may have even been public knowledge. I don't know, was that that basically Eric was going to go back to, you know, what brought him to the dance and what he believed in, which was the big name stars of w c W. You know, that was what's gonna get this company noticed again and get them back on the right track. Was the Hogans and the Stings and and and you know, Flares and those guys and and Nash and that was that was really the vision for the big Bang.

And I know there were also there was talk about some uh, some younger guys getting a push, like trying to trying to remember some of the names, but maybe Sean O'Hare was one I think who was going to be factored in. So it was gonna be r v D was another name that was mentioned right exactly. It wasn't going to just be Hey, we've got these big stars and that's going to be the whole show. Was Hey, here's these big stars, this name recognition which will bring you to the bring the

eyeballs. But yes, we've also got these new guys, these new exciting guys that were going to bring along and and be a big part of it as well. So, like I said, there was to me, there was there was a lot of optimism about could this work. On a personal level, there wasn't a whole lot of optimism about well, what does it mean for my career specifically? But yeah, when you put that Big Bang cover out, that back cover, it wasn't it didn't feel like a leap

of faith. It felt like a sure thing that was going to happen in the near future. It did. I mean, I felt like, you know, it was just like the announcing that Fuschien had bought the company, which we later found out wasn't really the case like you said it was. It was an agreement in principle. It it Yeah, the rug got pulled out. It's like, wait a minute, this isn't a done deal and the Big Bang theory isn't going to happen or the big bang pay per view

or whatever. But yeah, it's felt at the time like this is this is the direction and that it's heading and and this is this is where it's going to go. I know, once the Fusion deal was announced again prematurely, you know, the due diligence was being done and and I do know that there were a lot of problems coming up when the when the dude in the due diligence phase and we started hearing rumblings that you know, this isn't quite done yet, and uh, and we'll see what happens. Can you

give me more color, like who's saying what about that? You know this was coming uh from the publisher Ken likeer to me because he was in some of these deal are some of these meetings, and and like the due diligence aspect of it, I think all the department heads kind of had to meet with the fusient people and and you know, let's open the books and let's see where things are. And and I think again coming from Ken, who

was a very reliable source. Ken was a great boss, there started to be some questions on the Fusion and maybe some surprises of wow, this might be a little a little more daunting than we thought it was. Now Ken is on the Turner side or is he Where does he sit in the structure? Is he a WCW employee. He's a WCW employee. Yeah, he was. He's a guy that came from same field as me. He came from newspapers and the sports journalism background. He was hired as the as the

publisher of the magazine. He had a different editor for a while that eventually he wanted to move on from. And eventually it brought me in because I had a similar background as him. I think the fact that I was from oh yeah, the quote unquote legitimate journalism side of things, and that's why he brought me in and and you know, we had a real good working relationship. But yeah, he wasn't necessarily a Turner guy, but as he

was, you know, the head of the magazine. Yeah, I just want to see if there was perhaps like a Turner publishing division, and he was like, you know, one of it was one of many publications he oversaw. Okay, so that's fascinating because there was there was some word contemporaneously that you know, some of the due diligence. I remember investor Warburg Pinkus, which is a big hotshot investment firm, kind of seemed to fall out

of the deal that was brought to the table in the first place. It's been reported in the books like the Brian Elvers book and the Guy Evans book that that Warburg Pinkus eventually got cold feet. I'm sure the Observer reported at the time as well. So what you're saying does that up in that in that way I asked you about that Bischoff sit down. One I do want to ask you about Kevin before getting to the final days at WCW, was one you did with hul Cogan when he came back in two thousand. This

is right before the funb Vest wearing Hulk Hogan. You know that that wild period of his career where you're just wondering where are they going with this thing? But he sat down and gave you like a long involved interview about like where he saw WCW, where he saw himself evolving, and it was kind of a shoot deal. They did a version of it on Thunder too.

I'm sure you probably tag teamed on that and got the interview there. Tell me about your memories of that one last attempt to make Hulk Cogan and WCW work well. I mean, to me, it was pretty obvious that what they were going for was a stone cold Steve Ball absolutely sort of rebellious vibe, you know, with hal Cogan in that role, and it to me it was a square peg in a round hole like that's if there's anybody who's not that that character, it's it's hal Cogan. But he was even referring

to himself by his real name, you know. I think he did it in that interview as well. Absolutely, you know, like Terry Bolea, this new pissed off, you know, version of myself, and it was it was a complete shoot interview as much as one can be with Hogan because of course he's always in he's always in work mode on that you're not making

these quotes up. You're sitting across from the man, right exactly. I'm we we sat down in his you know, I really felt special because I got to do it in his private dressing room, which was you know, you probably heard those stories about how Halk had his own dressing room and it was kind of off limits, you know, nobody was allowing. What was it like in there. Did he have a nice fruit tray, like, give me, give me a vision. I don't work. You know,

looking back, I don't really recall it being anything special. Okay, but yeah, he welcomed me in and closes the door and and uh and I said to him, you know, I kind of laid the groundwork for what I wanted it to be. That's not a in character interview that I wanted to be. You know, Shoot, this is where we're going with the magazine. This was really this was the first issue with me as the editor.

And you know, the new Blood was on the cover, I believe, and we went so I explained to him that's that's the creative direction we want to go. And he's like, all right, brother. You know, he's like, I guarantee you there's nothing you can ask me I haven't been asked before. And about two questions in the interview, he said, wow, brother, nobody's ever asked a sudden Yeah. But it was It was great. He was very open and honest and and or at least as

honest as again as hope it can be. But when I after the interview was done, I and even as it was going on, I was thinking he almost. He doesn't come off very likable in some instances, very braggadocious and sort of you know, talking talking down, which I guess maybe he

thought he was in storyline. Yeah, he was leaning into like how Billy Kidman can't headlight a fleat stuff, remember that, And he was trying to play up that he actually meant those things, when really it was clear that they had decided to make that business by that point, right he talked about that and like Vampiro and all these guys like they're not ready to And again that was some storyline, but I also the whole storyline to me, and

this is the larger This goes to. The larger issue is like who are the fans supposed to root for? Like you would think the up and coming guys who supposedly, you know, haven't have been kept down, like you would think those are the baby faces, but they were portrayed as the heels. And you had the established guys. They even called them the Millionaires Club,

but they were portrayed as the baby faces. Well, I mean, does the average wrestling fan and want to cheer, like do you want it thrown in your face that these are the high paid guys who were holding under their spots. The whole thing was this goes back to me, the Russo booking, and obviously Bischoff was signed off on it as well. But the whole new Blood thing I just thought was fraught with who are the good guys here and who are the bad guys? When you met with Russo? Would

you meet him in the office or on the road? It was in the office. It was always in the the office. Every so many days a week he did. Yeah, Vince was he was in the I don't know if it was five days a week. Obviously couldn't have been because of the TV, but yeah, he was in there on a regular basis. Did you ever ever observe his thing where like he enters the room and then Dylan and Sullivan walked that walk opposite ways, pretending they weren't conspiring to dethrone him.

No, because when I started, Dylan and Sullivan were gone, I say, were no longer, they were no longer part of the company. And you know I did a Q and A with Russo where he was very open about that, and you know, buried Sullivan and Russeau was as guys that were, uh, you know, trying to undermine him and which I

think, you know, I think there was some truth to that. Oh yeah, sure, I mean he he came, he came back after they sold Bill Bush on being the fixes and it was a disaster exactly, and then they tried to put a deal together and then they were sidelined to buying the company. So yeah, I can see any and J. J. Jllen's come out with a book. It's all in there. But I'm gonna ask you, Kevin. I mean, let's let's get to it. We

all must come to this point. We're talking about WCW. When did you find out for sure what was going to happen to WCW and what did you do and what was your reaction and any memories you have. I pretty much found out when everybody else did. I mean, the rumors were running rampant, and they were, you know, they were getting more and more to

where we just we were just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And when it was announced the public announcement, the press release that went out that WWE or Vince McMahon had had bought WCW, I mean I didn't know for sure it was going to happen until until that announcement, we certainly thought it was going that way. But that's that's when we all found out. And you know, we we were all very I know I can speak for all of us in the magazine, and we were not very optimistic about where things

were going to go for us after that. Sure, And I think it was two days before the final Nightro that it came out in the press and stuff that WWF was going to buy them going into Panama City. People knew it was w IF. A lot of people say, didn't believe until they saw Shane in the flesh. Did you get an email, a phone call, someone walking into the office, knock on your door? Do you remember how that Friday news reached your ears. I think we saw the like I

think an inner office email was sent out. Sure, yeah, press release, I think, and you know that was sent out, and you know, I think at that point, I think it was then told that you know, there was going to be a big meeting the following week. I guess after that nitro where it was going to be a meeting in the power plant which was on the ground, which was adjacent to the office where we

worked. Everybody there was an all employee meeting in the in the power plant, and representatives from ww were going to be there, which was I think it was basically some human resources people and that there would be more discussion there on what our futures were. And we were informed what our future was was that we were all being let go and that was the end of our employment.

And you know, the WWHR people did have like a form you could fill out, so anybody interested in seeking an employment opportunity with ww fill out this form and tell us you know your job description and what you think your qualifications are, which you know, we went through the motions of doing that. I did. I filled one out, and you know, never heard anything. And I don't know of anyone aside from I don't know of anyone really from the office that got hired by w W as far as people that

worked for like the magazine or PR or any of those departments marketing. But I do know that obviously some of the agents got jobs, Johnny Ace and and Arn Anderson and and you know, maybe some others other than those guys,

I really don't recall anybody else getting a job. And you know, after that, it was just after the meeting was over, we went back to our offices and you know, had found that like we could no longer access to you know, the computer, and we couldn't sign on, and you know we'd already been They took us out of the system basically while this meeting was going on. And then you know, we had some time to clean out our desks and and we were escorted by security out of the building.

And that was that you grab any souvenirs. I know, it was like, don't take anything, but some people took some stuff. Let's be honest. You know, I think the only thing I did manage to grab one of the replica WCW title belts. Well, yeah, I think that was really and you know stuff that I had had, you know, just

working for the magazine that I had picked up here and there. You know, one thing I took was Haul Cogan did a photo shoot where he was we did like and again this was before me, but we had done like the top one hundred wrestlers of all time and Hogan was number one, and they did a photo shoot with him in like a tuxedo and I guess he had ripped off the white shirt or whatever, and like our art director, I think at the time had like the shirt and he's like, here,

you want this, And so I had hault Cogan's you know, white shirt in my in my bottom drawer. So took that home as a collectible. There we go. That was That was pretty much it. He's a Lapsed Fan Wrestling Podcast with Jack n s and Jpi Soros A Lapsed Fan Wrestling Podcast. Were people so resigned that they weren't emotional or were people crying? What

was the scene? Like? I saw some of the I saw some tears, and I think it was more from long term employees, people who had been there for a long time and you know, I people who you know, thought they worked there probably the rest of their lives. Like there was

some crying there. I was sad about it because I thought, you know, this is my one opportunity as to work in the wrestling business, someone who had been a lifelong fan, and you know, the stream of getting to work for a major wrestling company, and I didn't really have any great hopes of WW taking that you know form that I filled out and calling me up. So I was sad in that respect of like, you know, I left a really good job at the Baltimore Sun, and I uprooted you

know, my wife and I and to move to Atlanta. And it lasted a year and then what do I do now? Yeah, Wow, Johnny ash you mentioned, did you ever review him or work with him at all? Because Bitschoff kind of delegated quite a bit to him in those last like nine months or so. You know, at that time, I really didn't have a lot of one on one interaction with with Johnny. I didn't really

know what to make of him. I had this reputation as being a you know, a good mind for the business with work he had done in for all Japan, and but I didn't really have any any specific interaction with him. It's funny because years later, when I was in w W on the creative team and and uh John Laurniitis was was there both with a you know, an executive role and an on air role. I've worked with him a lot more, especially you know, producing some of the backstage segments he was

in and such. And I know a lot bad has come out about him recently, but Johnny was a great guy, you know, and like, look, I was never a talent, so I didn't have to deal with him. When he was head of talent relations. You know, there's there's a lot of speculation about how he you know, dealt with people, behind the scenes, whatever. But I could tell you working with him when he was a talent and I had to produce him, he was very easy to

work with and always very nice. Now maybe he was phony, and maybe he'd be shaking your hand and smiling at you with one hand and stabbing in the back of the other. I don't know, but I felt very funny. He's a funny guy, charming guy, easy to work with. Did you go to the Final nightro Kevin? I did? I did. I went to that Final nightro and you know, it was it was surreal. I mean everything you've probably heard about it from you know, Shane McMahon and

Bruce Pritchard showing up backstage and and nobody really knew. No one knew anything. I mean, we had we had heard all the speculation that as a shoot, that they were going to run it as a separate company. They were going to put Shane McMahon in charge for real, not just storyline, and it was going to be a separate company from from w B. And I think that was kind of pie in the sky thinking like I mean, when you look back on it, that that was obviously never going to happen.

But you know, sitting there watching it, we didn't know exactly what was going to happen. At the end. I wasn't privy to the script that night. I didn't know where it was going. But when Shane walked out and you know, the name on the bottom is McMahon, but it's Shane McMahon on the bottom of the contract, and we were almost like caught up in it, like, hey, maybe this is really gonna happen, Like maybe Shane will be our new boss, but obviously it was it was

not to be. Are you shouldered to shoulder with talent with a people at the magazine with lighting riggers? I don't know, how are you taking this in in front of the people I was watching? Yeah, I was watching

it with other WCW employees. But then I was you know, obviously I went backstage right after it was over, and you know, there was a lot of uncertainty with people I remember talking to, like you know, Shannon Moore who was part of three count and like he was one of the people who was like very uncertain, like what's going to be next for him? Now, certain other people already knew Booker t already knew he was going to ww and he was happy about it, right, So there it was.

It was a lot of different emotions depending on where you were. Did you know only in retrospect, Kevin, that Booker knew or did Booker say it that night? And that's a good question. And and to be honest,

I don't recall. I can't remember if we had heard certain guys were going to be taken, but and I do know a guy like Diamond Dallas Page was he was one of the bigger names who was concerned about what happens next because I know he really wanted to go to w WD, but he had not really gotten any like yeah, yeah said nobody really said, hey man, you're you're you're factored into this when when when when we get going?

So I know he was, he was, you know, pushing hard to try to get him with Shane. Oh yeah, I can see him lobbying

like you would like literally going up to Shane at the show. You mean, yeah, yeah, And I love Dallas you know, of course, yeah, yeah, he was, you know, and you think about it, you know, he he had gotten to the top in in w c W, and you know, he was had friends in the right places, especially with a guy like Eric Bischoff, and now all that's over, and he didn't know what w W really thought of him, you know, And I think we found out later they really probably based on the way they used

him when they brought him in, didn't see Dallas as the main event guy. So, yeah, did you feel like you had a job to do that night or was the magazine? I obviously, you know the magazine was was History, but I don't know that it's still published, I think a month after the company closed. But were you not working at all that night? How did that mentality go? We weren't really working that night, per se. I mean we were just there, I think, pretty much taking

in the show. And you know, the final the final issue was was already planned, and you know the thing was again with the company being so up in the air, we really had to you know, kind of be almost generic in in what we were writing at that point because nobody knew what was happening. Oh really, I remember his DDP on the cover of the last one. I think you hit the I remember hit the newstands like in almost like May. It was like, oh yeah, there's still some some

fumes left of WSW. Yeah DDP. That's the answer to the trivia question. He was on the on the final h on the final cover. I think we had an article on Shane Helms at that point, and I don't really remember what else was in that that issue of the magazine. It's all kind of a blur at this point. What did you do after the final Nitro said you goodbyes and just got on a plane or what do you remember

about the night of after the show wrapped. What I really recall is, you know, kind of like what I said earlier, was just this feeling of, you know, with a lot of the talent, like what's going to happen next? And some people concerned. You know. What's funny is road Dog Brian James showed up that night. I remember hearing this, Yes, yeah, there there was road Dog and he was talking with people.

So I think, you know, if w CW, I think he was looking for a job, you know, is there a new opportunity because he was a free agent at that point. I remember him being there and just I just really remember what the conversation that really stuck out with me was just Shannon Moore, you know, saying, you know, this is sad and like, I don't know what's going to happen, you know. And I think if I recall, he was one of the guys, wasn't he that

ended up? Wasn't he part of that initial groups that got a job? I don't know. I honestly, I think they sent him to the Heartland Wrestling Association, but he wasn't in that group of an initial invaders. But then then he came in later because Shane came over, and then you know, their buddies. But do you remember this, Kevin. Some people have talked about it that you know, this is wrestling, so who knows. But this scuttle butt that like someone might have been considering rushing the ring when

Shane got in the ring and tackling him. I had not heard that. Damn it. That sounded like some great wrestling lore right there. That's great. Yeah, I think it was a Jeremy Borash said it on a ww untold documentary about the final Night of Nitro. He was talking to said talent, of course, didn't name said talent, and said talent thought the better

of it at the last minute, but that would have been legendary. Wow, I'd love to know who said talent was Yes, I know, well your a much better position, perhaps than I am to get the answer. Maybe not, but I figured i'd plant the seed. This is a minor thing, but I don't know. Maybe it wasn't because one of the things to me that was always the harbinger of WCW jumping the shark or taking a turn or making a misfire under siege from the WWF was the redesign of the

logo in April nineteen ninety nine, go into that grating. Yeah, that gray, sort of star shaped. I don't even know what you want to call it. I mean, there's a million things you could call it. And I noticed that towards the end of the magazine, you guys used sort of like a generic red WCW typeface. You didn't use the company logo. And I also noticed in the aforementioned Big Bang ad, and you know, all that says about what could have been the WCW is much different. It's

a different look to the typeface of the logo. Now, was that something where it's like this is going to be the new WCW logo and we're leaving behind the nineteen ninety nine one. Do you remember anything about that? I just remember when that logo came out, that the star one that I think it was universally panned. I mean, I think I don't know how anyone could objectively have looked at that and signed off on it and thought that was

good. So when I got to the magazine we started, initially the magazine was using that star logo because it was the company logo, but in the art direct time it was it was a brilliant guy named Jim Schlotman. He had talked with Ken Laker, the publisher, about, Man, this this logo sucks, like this is horrible, and it's not good enough for the company's own magazine. Not good enough for the company's own magazine. So Ken was like, well, Jim, why don't you create one and we'll use

that as the WCW magazine logo. So that was sort of the red one that that he that we came up with for the magazine. Slotman came up with that and and we just we just I don't think we even asked permission, is my recollection. We just decided that's gonna be We're getting rid of the star thing and we're gonna put this because that thing's hideous. We're gonna

put this as the magazine logo. And if you if you'll notice, I think from there on, different like that logo started appearing on other things, like even on TV they would show like the w CW magazine logo. So I think at some point, I guess it was it was acknowledged that that

star logo really didn't work, and the magazine logo started getting used. Amazing, and anything about the change in the Big Bang logo and the appearance of the WHW in that, No, I don't remember anything about that specifically. I just think that was probably you know, Bischoff and if you probably branding coming up with their own logo for this for because that wouldn't have been your call, right, I mean, that was just an ad delivered to you,

Yeah, exactly. I was just an ad delivered that we put on the back of the magazine. That was. That was nothing we had any involvement in. Did you ever try to interview Brian Badal or anybody from the Fusian side. I didn't. I think, you know, we we had Eric, and Eric talked about Brian Badal about being his partner and how it's going to be this great partnership. But we never had access to to Brian,

nor did did I ask for it at that point. And now you came in sort of before the goose had been cooked, as it regards AO all time Warner, So you would have never seen or had a reason interact with Ted Turner. I take it, no, no, And and look when I got there, Ted Turner was not involved at all, right and right, and and then that was another you know, when you're talking about

who killed WCW. That's that's a big factor that a lot of people talked about at the time and probably since, is that Ted loved his wrestling, and you know, it was a big staple of the superstation, and people had always said, as long as Ted had any power, WCW was never going anywhere. But with all these mergers, even though it had the Turner name on it, Ted did not have any real power, so there was

nothing he could do even if he wanted to to save WCW. Well, it's only fair, Kevin Eck, that we ask you the same question we've asked all the other guests we've had on these companion pods to the Who Killed WCW series? It is the question, and I'm interested in you're off the

top response like a rorshock test almost who killed WCW. I mean, this is probably the stock answer, but you know, at the end of the day, it was it was Jamie Kellner, you know, the executive who decided that you know, TBS and TNT they no longer wanted WCW programming because you know, once there was no TV, you know, Bischoff and fu shit, they had no they had no product without TV. So that was the death knell is they don't have any TV. They have no place to

put their product. There was no time together, no time to put together a new TV deal. Ultimately, Jamie Kellner pulled the plug. But let's be honest, the company was on life support at that point, and and there's plenty of blame to go around. You know, I don't believe Vince Russo killed w CW on his own, but he certainly helped speed up their death. I think with his horrible booking and and people just turning out and

droves, I don't think that helped things. But then again, you know, Kevin Sullivan's booking before that didn't do a lot either, so uh, it was dying anyway. And look, if Jamie Kellner hadn't canceled the programming, you know, could could WCW have have made it under bischoffmntution Maybe I think they had a chance, maybe not. You know, there was some discussion too, like internally we talked about it, like does w does the

world really need two wrestling companies? WWE had become so popular and the industry standard, and it was like, well, does there have to be a number two? Who says there has to be? And maybe there doesn't need to be, you know, and we also felt maybe there just isn't a need for it. You know, people have made their choice and it's WWE.

Indeed, Well, kevinac thank you so much for joining us. He was the editor of WCW magazine in its final days from March two thousand until the very end of the company, and in fact in attendance, as we learned today on the final episode of Monday Nitro. It was great to get to know you, Kevin, and thank you so much for the reflections. It was tremendous stuff. I appreciate the invite, like I said, and it was. It was fun to reflect on the you know, some stuff

I haven't really thought about in twenty five years. Maybe it's for the best, Yes, definitely for the best. Where is the Succeeding Preceedings is a production of the LAPS Entertainment Group. Its content is intended for private use only. We want to want s