It's the Lapsed Fan Wrestling Podcast with Jack and carn s e O and JP Sorrow.
He's a lapsed fan and all my years and wrestling, I never seen anything.
And it's the laps fan name by the one in the ring.
Forget about Slado.
He the real king of swing.
When the bell.
Goes in and the kick like me throwing in the corner.
But it's lash like stick.
Even Jerry King can sake off the crowd.
Nodded in his head like it. Steve low Brown, would you get low down?
Go even high up?
Flipp you on your head?
But you know cool driver, you speak more now and dragon spits fire give you more shock than when head treats higher drop a more truth than the con of sniper unless you would a coconut.
Roddy Piper, Jack a JP.
He like j Y d drop the cupcakes and gold the brain Bob means the best podcast. Frost start the close cloud if you all it's a classic a pose.
You know it's been it's been some time since we promised the Lapsed Fan Solar system. This week's episode buff Yes, yes, it happened. The untimely passing of Sid last year. It was perhaps easy to forget that we had promised listeners another show that we pulled it random out of the hat. We run a roll in that regard before we decided to go all in on SID And I don't know, did we forget what happened to World War three nineteen ninety six?
Well, I don't think we forgot. I think, you know, it's actually been on the table quite a few times, but then just something's come up and it's like, well, we should probably do this first, and then well, you know, we'll do it after that. And then well, you know, we should probably do this first, and then we'll do it after that. And you know, I mean, hey, better late than never, you know, it is I guess we can always try to push World War three back. Isn't that a good idea?
Yeah, we should probably uh prolong that as long as we can, not the war, but the arrival of it.
Exactly after watching the show, I kind of feel like we should have waited another future. It's not that bad. We probably should have just said, you know what, we did it, you know, don't you remember.
But it's so funny how like people are still every you know, so many days they just send a message to us, like it isn't gonna like day well, we say we're gonna do a show like there is a there is an hitch that needs to be scratched out of there.
There is, there is, there is I mean, it's it's and then you know, it's funny that I mean, I guess this would be you know, in prime nWo era, So I understand that. But it's like, you know, it's just a fucking World War three, right is that?
Other?
Like we promised to do one of the most notable wrestling pay per views of all time, but here we are. It's back to nineteen ninety six w CW World War Three. We've done a few of these, the second World.
War three and the chronology of the World War three pay per view. Shouldn't this be World War four?
Then?
If we've already had World War three, it would be funny if they did actually do that would be world you know, at world War three, then world War you know, obviously no World War one or World War two, but yeah, world War three, four or five. That would be really funny if they did.
But I highly supported it, because all you're doing is invalidating what you called World War three. If the next one doesn't have to be next. But you know there are completists out there over ten years doing the show.
And maybe, maybe maybe if it was World War four, that'd have to have four rings, a four ring Battle Royal. It'd be the World War format.
Every time they add a year to it, they have to add a ring six men won, six rings one hundred men. It'd probably be just as easy to follow as three ring sixty men.
It probably would at that point.
What's the difference And we'll get into all that because we've done World War thres in the past, but completists have noted. I mean this about finishes nineteen ninety six WCW in the catalog.
Wow, does it really?
I think we're just about there done. Slam Burree is missing an other than that, maybe Slare and what a transformative year. We haven't done Halloween? Have we haven't done Halloween Havoc? No, Only so that there's two with Hogan and Savage and Piper Wan Svagy and the fucking the wig. Oh oh, that's gonna be a good moment we get to that. Hogan better be on cameo by then. I story behind that fucking hair piece.
Yep. But Savage grabbing it and walking around like a goofball with it, and in so many ways, I got your fucking hair in so many ways. It explains a lot of this show.
Piper comes in at the end, and here's the follow on the contract signing at World War three to set up the match between Hogan and Piper at Starcade. Yeah, we also have the contractual status of Randy Savage being way up in the air Halloween Havoc ninety six being his last appearance for some time in WCW. Like legit, legit contract, WWF was making a play. I'd invite you to consider Randy coming back in ninety seven and WWF, Oh my god, right in there with Austin and Hard.
What a fucking could you a Hogan? I mean, in Austin Savage programs. Fuck my fucking that's insane. I mean, that's insane.
But now WSW made it work, and Savage would soon enough being the nWo in his own right. But it was a fascinating time in WCW.
It really was.
The nWo was just starting to show signs of being a ratings behemoth. Because as hot as the hoganhel turn is, as hot as Hollannash coming in were it was still kind of neck and neck with WWF for a little while in terms of ratings, in terms of a sense of company momentum, certainly ww was closing the gap. But now by the fall as be under the Winner of nine ninety six and A ninety seven, it's becoming clear
that they're running away with it. And then not only is WWF losing ground, they are losing the war, right it's because of the nWo, and one of the recent additions to the stable right before the show was indeed the Giant who of course Paul White triumphs in the World War three Battle Royal to secure a shot at the world title on this show, and that sets up that ill fated NWA sold out pay per view that we did in January nine ninety seven where awful, awful,
truly awful. And what that signals to us is that a lot of what happens in WCW on this pay per view and all the nitros around it and the pay per views around it, is this blossoming idea which is ill fated from the start, which we've talked about for years on TLF, that the nWo starts to have to become its own program, with its own roster, its own announcers, its own television show, its own hour of nights.
Stupid and stop stop it. So just stop it.
On that pretense, Bischoff turns heel despite being WCW's executive vice president because WCW needs an announcer. Apparently, No, they don't with these guys going to wrestle.
Exactly that. I mean, it always comes down to that. It always comes down to who the fuck are these guys gonna wrest.
The nWo wrestles WCW ANDWCW shows, and WCW wrestles the nWo and nWo shows. Aren't they both the same show?
Well?
I think that's the whole idea. They weren't going to wrestle on oh my god, on on WS on nWo shows, the nWo versus nwos. That's great? How that work? Which how would that work? Sounds It's like, if you get a whole faction of guys who are teaming together, doesn't that kind of kind of make the whole point moot? If they're feuding with each other?
What have we always said? Why was the nWo angle money? It's because WCW is eventually going to beat them. Yes, it's not because they become WCW.
And and and the other thing is there's a big difference between between you know, loving to hate somebody and actually loving them, like you know, they weren't babyfaces. They were just guys you love to hate and you enjoyed them for sure. But even though they were cheered, there was no doubt in fans' minds they wanted them to lose eventually. It was just a cool moment, right.
Any anybody you can point out in any audience at WW at this point in time who was channing nWo, And there were lots of them. I would bet donuts to dollars that if you pulled every single one of them aside and said, do you want the nWo to beat Sting when Sting finally wrestles, they would all say absolutely not right, because that would be fucking steamatch. Yes, I want someone to show up and defeat this invading force.
But for now, it's such a hot angle and it's so cool and it's so unpredictable that we're gonna cheer for that because that's what's electrifying us right now. And so they really drank that kool aid and just felt like, Okay, well, no one cares about WCW because as soon as we did the nWo angle, that's when we actually started winning the ratings war. So now you know, nWo is the only thing that really matters. So we're in that really weird zone. It was funny when we covered the Who
Killed WCW series last year that weiss did. Remember Brian Alvarez said, as far as he is concerned, w CW started making decisions that would harm instead of help when bishoff, turnheel and join the NBO, And that's right here, and that's so early in the nWo angle that it seems kind of silly to say that, like the die was cast at that point.
He's not wrong. I don't know if he's right, but he's not wrong. Yeah either, you know, I don't know if that would have been a better choice or not. I can see I can see the idea that once you get somebody who's who's not a wrestler, who is the real, you know, executive vice president of the company, it kind of takes it kind of becomes a little goof hokey in a way. Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, although you know it certainly the Vince McMahon heel idea
before Vince micmahon turned heeling. You know, so there is there isn't him already doing it in nineteen ninety four in Memphis, right, and I don't Right of course, listen if I if I didn't see, it didn't happen. So that's the way it goes. Yeah, but you know, like there's there's they're like, it's it's weird. It's like it's great, but it's also like it's just like you said, it's o key, it's it's it. It kind of takes it
because because then really it allows for way more plot holes. Yeah, in the scenario because now you've got a guy, you got the guy who runs WW so, like why doesn't he just shut WWS?
Well where everyone has like a certain period of time to declare their allegiance, but it's like why would so what happens to the people who declare allegiance to WCW. They never made that clear. They just kind of laid that out. I said, you know, it's good drama, like Bagwell turns the Night after World War Three on nitro, but everyone agrees that the nWo started to kind of get goofy when they added too many people. Everyone's list, though, is different as to who represented one person too many,
and for some it's Bischoff. I didn't feel that way at the time, but I mean, if you look at it with the benefit of hindsight, it was kind of the point where it's like, okay, so they're going to like be the company, They're going to be the promotion.
Now, like right, no one wants that. No one. And when they tried it and NBO took over Nitro, the ratings took such a shit and the NBO sold out pay per view with such a piece of shit that it's abundantly clear that it's not going to work to tear down all the WCW signs and put nWo banners up that it is not it's money about this angle. It was so money that they were able to still realize incredible returns on this angle despite kind of that off center aim that they seemed to have Teddy Byassi
was still in the mix. They were trying to, you know, foster the idea that it was Teddy Byassi who was bankrolling all of these ship jumps to the nWo like the Giant and others right, And they had a in mind for Teddybiyassi a role where he would be a color commentator for the nWo Hour of Nitro or the nWo television show Visa vis supposedly Eric Bischoff, who's talked about his role in his mind being more of a Gene Okerland like and he kind of does play that role,
Like when the NBO swarms the ring and does a big promo, it's Bischoff holding the mic just like Gene Okerland would if it was right. So that was the concept, but eventually they learned, and it was wouldn't have took much research to know this ahead of time that Teddy Byassi is shit in the commentary position, like he's just oh, of.
Course, there's no idea how to get anybody else over. He can't talk about others. He's about himself, which makes him an absolutely wonderful pro wrestler, which he is. But yes, not everybody's cut out to, you know, talk about others in ways that elevate them and get storylines across et cetera. It's not everyone's gift. They're making a play for mister Perfect as well, who was doing color on WWF at the time and who would be coming in quite soon.
But this is that weird period where oh yeah that it was like he disappeared from WWF but he didn't show up in WCW for like six months.
Yeah, that was that was so strange, wasn't it, Like he just didn't he just wasn't there, and like he was gone but he wasn't. Yeah, well, hey, you know you gotta milk that Lloyds of London as much. That was part of it.
Yeah, And there was also this There was also this kind of showdown where McDevitt was sending legal letters saying, like, you know, he is not eligible to leave right now, you know, he's not out of his contract, and they
were taking issue with the Lloyds of London. Somehow headig held it against WWF that they compromised his ability to collect the full amount from Lloyds of London by making some representation or the other that would make Lloyds of London thing that he actually wasn't as permanently disabled as the insurance payout that he was due to get were indicated. So he never had any love loss for them over that whole thing. Eventually, he came in, but there was
some legal volleys before it could be consummated. But that's something else that could have taken full shape. Here at the end of nineteen ninety six, Roddy Piper comes in, shows up at the end of Halloween Havoc and here has the contract signing with Hogan and gets attacked by the nWo. A ton of stuff going on. I remember it very warmly because I was looking into WCW in a way I never had before. It was Halloween Havoc ninety six was the first ww pay per view where
I like insisted on getting it. I was just like, I must get this, and really, yeah, it was. It was an odd feeling because I was like, why do I care so much about a WCW pay per view? Why am I so dialed in on pay per view night? And it was because, slowly but surely, the nWo stuff on Nitro was getting the lion's share of my attention on Monday nights.
Sure, sure, yeah, that happens.
And it's a fascinating time. But you know, World War three, We've talked about this when we did the nine ninety five edition and others. Well, there's only three of them right, ninety five, ninety six, ninety seven, and ninety eight.
So ninety eight is the last one. Yeah, four total. It's it's a tough watch the Battle Royal itself. Oh, it's it's they're always hard. It's just it's not a good it's not good. You know, it's not a fun not a fun fucking event. It's because it's not a three ring battle. That's just tough shit. You know, it's tough shit to watch because you don't you can't focus on three and they always have the split screen and then they stop it for a little while and it's just not you just got to knock it off.
Well, is there a better way to do it or is it just an irredeemable concept from a production?
I don't know. I really don't know if if there's a better way to do it or not. I I want to say that there is, but I just don't know what it is. Yeah, I'm not sure either.
They had three announced teams, one on each ring, two guys each, and they had you know, situations where you'd be having you know, three screens on at the same time, and like the announcers are like, oh he went out, he went out and you don't even see it. Like, right, most of the eliminations in a World War three Battle Royal you do not see. I don't have to say I don't have to see all of them, but how about I see more maybe half of them?
Right?
Is it really?
Like?
Why do we even care until the last ten minutes? If that's the way it's.
Gone, I know, why do we care until they fucking have the last twenty men join the one ring?
Yeah?
Right, which is always a good moment because it's like clearing out, and from a live event perspective, if you're sitting there in the Norfolk scope, I'm sure it's kind of cool because you know, you can make the decision about where you cast your gaze and you can focus on three rings at once when you're there in person.
But on TV it's just it's a non starter. And this drove it home all the more when I watched it again here for this for this episode, it was like, my god, like, you want full screen takeovers of whatever ring they choose to focus on. Nobody wants that three ring view. Not a soul alive that would select that. Besides apparently Craig Leathers and the ww production team of
course demerit to them. Definitely a failure of imagination there, or you know what it is, It's it's imagination running rampant instead of doing it simply.
Well, it's it's imagination running rampant. It's also it's also just I don't know how to say it. I really don't know how to say it. I mean, it's like it's it's lack of focus. It's lack of I mean in a wad way, it's lack of a lack of imagination. It's just like just just it's not the foresight.
You have the foresight to realize and you're gritting out the production this way that this is going to kind of be a kind of going to be a pointless watch at home for a while, right, right, And we might just bite the bullet and have full screen takeover of whatever ring we choose to focus on it in a given time, running the risk, because the point is even with three screens, you don't you still don't even
see most of the eliminations. If you're doing that so that the fan has eyes on everything, so that theory they don't miss anything, they miss so much more because the picture's so damn small. I mean, I'm looking at this on an HD television in modern times. I mean, can you imagine like watching this on a small screen. Oh my god, it'd be an nineteen ninety six, how small. Some of those views would have been absolute night man.
So it's interesting because Tony Shavanni on his podcast with Conrad reviewed this show and they were talking about that criticism of the World War th reapproach of Shavanni, in addition to being the had announcer for ww was also the producer.
I'm sure he didn't. I'm sure he didn't fucking care. Now there's he thought was I'm sure there, you know, if he didn't fucking like it, just didn't, don't watch the fucking show.
It's always that's always a nice way to deal with criticism. If if only all of us had that option. Well we do, yeah, we do. So that's fine. We actually understand where he's coming from there. But here's I guess it's a box you always have to check when you review a World War three episode. Is this this this issue of how tough it is to watch at home? And here is Tony Savanni relative to the criticism of how they handled the nineteen ninety six production.
Yeah, he took the commentary.
I thought the commentary team did a pretty good job of throwing it around. I don't think we stepped on each other. We had six guys working, which was probably too much. I thought that Lee Marshall bump was pretty hilarious because we all love Lee and he sold it quite well.
How are you doing over there?
Lee?
Not good?
But the hell, you know, I just got hit and Zibisco was tremendous. Well, you know, it was too many people, Yeah, right, sure. I mean when you have sixty people, you are going to get a lot of guys who mean nothing and know nothing. And you know, with all these guys going out at the same time and all these different announcers, I think as an announced crew, we did probably as good as we could do with announcing all these guys.
I mean, we're watching it.
Look, we're all watching the same thing, and we've always did We've always done this. We're watching the same thing the fans were watching. We're watching the screen, the monitor, and we're watching three little boxes. So we don't know who was all going out. And you know, if we missed the guys, now, then what the fuck did that?
Did that mean anyway?
Was that important that we hit every guy who's going out that we talked about every guy that we gave a background of, every guy who went out. Oh here out goes Psychosis, and you know, Psychosis had his head stuck up his ass back in nineteen ninety five, pulled out by de Malenko and sniffed by Dave Meltzer and make sure it smelled right.
I think I'm going back and listening to that.
I think we did a good job of not talking over each other, and I think the finish of it, as Meltzer said, was good because it got over what we wanted to get over. And I think if you go back and you watch the end of that, the fans were pretty much into it at the end. They were all mixed up as we were. But if you're in the arena, you see sixty guys go at it. There's something pretty cool about that. I thought production wise, that we fucked up by just staying on that three shot all the time.
I think that was one of the mess And of.
Course basically they had to do what I guess because they didn't know who was going out and what to order. I mean, you kind of get a rundown of who you think's going out when, But will the guys actually pull it off? I mean, if we say that Diamond Dallas Page, for instance, is the first man going out. Suppose somebody else goes out and you miss that shot.
So they probably had it with three rings do that, But I thought maybe they should have pulled off that three shot and taken maybe a one shot of you know, maybe a ring number one at one time, a ring number three. I agree, it was a big cluster fuck, no question. There were too many slots and not enough, not enough pieces of talent to fill that slot. So if we missed some of those guys, then it didn't matter to where we were going anyway. And that was further in the nWo angle.
Yeah, that's what happens when you have to hit this artificial number at sixty entrants, right right, It's like, yeah, that's the point. If it didn't matter if they went out, why are they in the match?
I know, it's not like you're going to fucking see uh uh, you know, I don't know, Alex right win the fucking Yeah, I know you need fucking you need dead wood in there for sure, But also you know, Shemney didn't say this, you know, he he failed to mention the fact that after uh uh uh, after Lee Marshall took the bump, there was just cocaine all over his mustache. Yeah, he took the bump, all right.
I mean that is such a silver lining of this pay per view, Like this is the most Lee Marshall you're gonna get.
Like, I know, it's so true.
Because he's he's unleashed, because they need the announcing help and he's like third straight, you.
Know, Tony, I'm here, Tony, I've got a nice bump of cocaine sniffing up my nose. And I'll tell you right now, I've got women waiting for me in the back already, pants down, pants down. I've got my pants down right now. In the arena of.
Six times he was on all fours that night in Norfolk, Virginia, only one, however, in the arena he fucked. He after the show. I think that's been I think the history is established.
Just imagine, just imagine, like Lee Marshall after like two hours of sex, just a sweaty, you know, like hair drenched from all the just the the rough houses, but not the slightest sign of fatigue on his face. None, none, none, and he's still fat. Right, that's the thing too, despite all that exercise, you know, just fucking loads of colm.
Let's send him the week ahead to another college campus for nitro party. Right, he's ready, I mean, Lee Marshall, listen, listen, he listen. He has his way for a few nights and then and then you know what, right in the fucking plane, he's off to another one. He's ready to go to that next nitro party and start fucking again.
Stop us the way to stop us lying?
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, Lee Marshall and all of his glory on this show, not just holding a microphone backstage, but holding court in the commentary. Oh yeah, and he can't hear his colleagues, so he's just talking over people and he's making sounds and he's yelling at Larry's Abisco for doing nothing while he's being attacked by pro wrestlers. He's trying to sell and do commentary at the same time. He doesn't know how to do either, so that it's
very challenging for him. Just a fucking mess, that's the thing. It's just a mess. It's not enough there's sixty guys in there, you know, throwing each other around. And remember, unlike a Royal Rumble, they don't enter at intervals, right, maybe sixty men entering at intervals to work. You might want to do that instead. It'd be a two hour match. But that's fine.
I mean that might that might not be too bad. Honestly, you know, have something, have something different. I mean, I appreciate again the idea behind them trying to have their own version of the Royal Rumble, but it's like, I don't know how to do it. I really don't know how to do it, to make it. I mean I know that that even aw does literally does the Royal Rumble. They just call it, what is it, the casino, Yeah, the Gauntlet the yeah, yeah, you know, that is the
exact same things. I mean, maybe they could have done it with sixty men doing that, and you know, that might have been interesting, but that would have a gain.
You know, what you could do You could have like three men enter every two minutes and one goes to the ring. Yeah, you know, and that way the rings aren't so full that it's completely impossible for the production to zone in on a ring where something important is happening, But it sounds like to hear them tell it, like they were just so not like deep logistically in terms of like you know, organization, they probably couldn't do something
that complex. They probably would have just fallen apart. I mean, it really sounds like the sixty is double what WWF does and let's just put him in there. Yeah, let's only book the last ten minutes of the thing. Other than that, it's just you know, a fly by the seat of our pants. And it's not enough that there's you know, they did put some things, but it's out of the ring extracurriculars like Ben wi right and Kevin Sullivan battling into the crowd and stuff.
That's that's what they would do. They would do these extra little things way way way down the line.
And it's like, eh, you know, like okay, some didn't even get in the ring because of that, right right, there's not enough we can't even follow what's going on in the ring. But you're going to add a fourth dimension in and around ringside where Lee Marshall shitting himself and Ben was beating the shit out of Kevin. It's like, you know, you're actually not doing yourself favors by adding more more dimensions where shit is happening that these cameramen
directors have to follow. But it did give us a little bit of a nice glimpse because the way the rings were positioned, having three teams out there, we were able to see a couple of shots. You probably saw this where there's like a blonde woman at the end of the announced table with a headset on, kind of directing them.
Yes, yea, hear from her.
But that's a rare glimpse at a woman by the name of Annette Yothera who's a fascinating little story in her own right. It's been mostly like backhanded comments and things on podcasts, of course, so we don't know what a ton but Bobby Heenan went in on her, not by name, but.
It's pretty clear that's what he was talking about.
In his book, Chavani said at one point she and Craig Leathers, apparently they were together even though Craig Leathers was married, thought that they could make a play to take over WCW entirely, that they had designs on somehow grabbing the reins of OW. I have no idea, I guess talking the head of TNT Sports and Entertainment, you're Harvey Schiller. Brad Siegel types into giving them the ball just like you know, the same way you know, guys like Bill Bush and.
Stuff got the ball. So that's insane.
So that created an interesting challenge there. But Bobby Heenan from his book, after production meetings in the WWF, Vince McMahon would say, let's go have some fun. After WCW production meetings, we'd say, let's go see if there's any free food left life in the announcement here from the Brain.
Well, well you know he doesn't. I mean they also said that in W two. Yeah, especially Jim. You'd go there and it would be all gone. People from production would walk by you and they would never say hello or talk to you. There was this makeup girl who was promoted to executive producer because she was taking it from one of the other producers.
Right.
She looked like Rushmore and smelled like gray poupon. She couldn't put her own face on. What she was gonna make you look like Mount Rushmore. I guess big tits. And she smelled like gray poupon. And it's not a good smell, right, I mean, well.
Listen, I don't I don't mind the smell of gourmet, you know, the Dijon mustard, but like not in a person. You know, I don't want to like get near a person.
Really.
It's a strange thing, though, to say someone smells like that as a knock, Like, yeah, no one wants to smell like mustard, except except Kendrick Lamar. But you know, it's it's it's it's like it's also not like a universally reviled thing. It's a condiment people put our food to enjoy, right, you know, we've all had that. We've all dripped it on ourselves. You know, at some point hot dogs fallen off or whatever.
You know, you like a little spice in the hot dog mustard, you know, like just straight yeah, yeah sometimes sometimes you know, I mean I'm in the mood for that. That's kind of the that's the that's the New York Street why, I'll tell you solutely. They put on the they put on the spicy, not the not dijon per se, but they they put on the.
Little texture in there, the brown mustard. Yeah, sure, absolutely. She couldn't put her own face on. She was gonna make me look good. There was another girl that worked there, whom we called Mondy Turnbuckle was another person.
She was just a slob.
She was clumsy and always spilling water. She'd grab a rag to clean it up, and she'd pull our headsets off. One day I saw it. One day I saw at the airport. Apparently Wendy was a diabetic. She was lying on the floor of the terminal and gave herself a shot and her ass through her genes. Of course, there was a croissant from Burger king Line next to her.
Rain.
Don't fucking cross him, man, No, listen exactly, don't don't.
Don't.
He will fucking come for you. Were you all right? Like he the moment you cross him, he is on the hunt, all right. He will find you, and he will take you down. Picture a big pig, he writes, lying on the floor with a needle sticking out of
her ass. I leaned over to the guy sitting next to me and said, usually when they use those dark guns, they'll take the tusks right off of roll fuck interminal o' haair, you know, like fucking like leaning over to some stranger and like leaning over to Steve Martin in plain strange.
Everybody hated their jobs. He writes, it was the funniest place. For example, if someone was in charge of tapes and someone was in charge of pens, the person in charge of tapes would say, don't touch that tape. I'm in charge of it. I have to move that. The person in charge of pens would say, would you like to use my pen? The tape person would say, I don't want to get involved in that. They would only do what they had to. No one would ever help anybody.
So yeah, I bring that up because that would also add a challenge to producing something like a World War three three ring battle Royal. If nobody can stand each other, you know, they're not going to get together and game plan how to do this thing perfectly.
They're going to show up by.
The seat of their pants and do as little preparation as possible because they don't want to be accused of trying too.
Hard because that would be ridiculous. And there we go.
Yeah, but yeah, so I Fannie had a lot to say, not a lot, but he had things to say that earlier interesting strings to pull on. He said that the other and Craig Leathers wanted to run WCW, that they got Kevin Sullivan fired at one point in time and
had Eric Bischoff's ear and were political animals. He was quick to point out that he couldn't confirm that they were dating, but people always said that of course Craig was married and she was not, so that was probably probably if it was true, not something people were volunteering necessarily, right.
But as for Craig Leathers, who, you know, if we're going to talk about production in WCW, world War three is probably a good time because that's like the ultimate challenge, the ultimate test is trying to produce one of these battle royals. And he's like, you know, the what the Kerwin Sylphie's or the Kevin Dunn of WW him and sure the other guy Keith Mitchell who works for aw now and came from World Class originally. But I love this because I was you know what about Craig Leathers.
Can we say anything more than that? I know, it's really yeah, there's never a lot said there. And he's got he's got a Wikipedia that I have to say, looks like he edited it. Do you ever have you ever read a Wikipedia entry where you feel like the subject of the Wikipedia has been in the weeds.
Yes, yes, yeah, like somehow he like knows somebody who has a connection at fucking Wikipedia. Well yeah, I mean anybody can edit a Wikipedia. You can edit your own Wikipedia. Yeah, but you can't get like why, like he doesn't need a fucking p.
In the first place, you know, right, Yeah, he created it and then edited it, but it says Nitro brought an intense rivalry between w CW's Monday Night program and the World Wrestling Federation's Monday Night Raw program. This rivalry is known It's the Monday Night War, directed by Leathers and produced by Eric Bischoff. Okay, like anyone is ever, but anyone is ever when talking about the Monday Night Wars brought his name up, Craig Leather's name Never Never,
directed by Leathers and produced by Rick Bishoff. W W Nitro started surpassing Raw in the television ratings and held the highest ratings and cable for eighty three consecutive weeks. Bischoff, along with Leathers and Nett Yoder in there, Kevin Salt, another person no one's ever said the name of Kevin Sullivan and Terry Taylor wrote the majority of the storylines and content for Nitro.
And ww pay per views.
Bishoff and Leathers came up with the idea that many commercial break should be taken during live matches. This is not this. This is not cited anywhere. There's no citation like this has just stated as if it's like common knowledge, and it's like, I've never heard that before. So Tim in there like trying to put his little resume points in his Wikipedia is my.
Because the first one, the first the first pair I'm looking at right now, the first paragraph has cited us. There's a Eric Bischoff chat from Prodigy. Oh my god, from like nineteen ninety five. There, I got to see that. The fuck. This is the following. The following is an exclusive Prodigy chat Triumph.
The following announcement is a transcript by the Prodigy World Order.
Brings Shah, Yeah, they get a whole fucking thing here. And there's a moderator. Eric Bischoff, VP of ww is now currently with US answering your case. I do that every month like WWF would do on their AOL channel. Hey, Eric, did you purposely bid up Brett Hart's contract causing the wwe to offer him an insame amount of money and hopes that that he would it would result in other workers getting upset and leaving. Somebody asked, no, no, not at all. I offered Brett a deal. Whoa, he offered
Brett a deal? Now he says it here. Oh, I offered Beretta deal that I could make work financially for both him and my company. God no, he actually can never happen. That's something. Uh huh, that's right. There must be some legal shit there.
Yeap.
Oh, he says. Have you talked to Sean Michaels at all? He says, I haven't talked to Sean since sometime in nineteen eighty eight, when Sean and I were both working for Verne Gagne. He might have been eighty seven. Since that time I had I haven't had any conversations with Sean Michaels. Based on what I've heard and the information out there has been presented by Dave Meltzer and Wade Keller.
Based on the inaccuracy of Wade's information about the Roddy Pipe Kevin Nash incident, I don't think any of us can tell if the Heart Michael's incident was real or illusion.
All right, So this is post Montreal screw job or or or post their fight in a.
Their fight, Rodford, I feel like it's that, all right.
So it keeps intact my point that he's making reference to a ninety six play for Brett and not the ninety seven.
Yeah.
Let's see here, let's get Yeah, the Piper Nash fight was backstage at a Nitro in Boston and June or ninety seven. Yeah, yeah, so that would be it was June, right, It's definitely mid ninety seven. It was definitely before Brett came. What made you think of the idea for the New World Order rather, I really don't remember anymore. It was just something I knew people would like. People like renegade organizations and renegade people. Funny enough, they didn't like the renegade.
Yeah, that was the last person they wanted to see. In my mind, that's what the NWOR represented, people who would rewrite the rules. That was really the idea going in. Yeah, that was the idea. Okay, that's funny.
I so how you know it's always been like, oh, I didn't copy it from the japan UW A fine invasion angle. But then like I saw something recently where he was like totally talking about Yeah, he's in his book and his uh contvers creates cash. He's talking about getting the idea from Japan. And WWF always insists on that, like when they do a documentary.
Controversy creates cash. Isn't that a line in that uh in that movie that's out right now?
Then that's right. Your co chairman saw Queen of the Ring. If you're wondering the movie about Mildred Burke, and you probably won't get a chance to see it if you haven't seen it yet, because it'll probably out of theaters, but it'll be streaming.
Soon or notough, and you probably don't want to either.
There's a moment where they force and it's supposed to be nineteen fifties pro wrestling one day looks then another promoter and says, controversy creates cash. I mean, dude, and they say shoot match like.
They say shoot does this mean? What does this mean?
Billy?
Shoot beach and and and and the entire movie. You could have a drinking game with how many times they say is that in the script? Is this part scripted? What's the screen? Yeah?
She leans over the milderd Berg character and like goes up to the promoter to the ropes and goes, what's the script? I mean, that's the the dialogue is the downfall. It's actually pretty. It's a pretty movie. The performances are really good. But well she's good, yeah, Mildred, Yeah she's good, Josh Lucas is, Yeah, that's true. Well, they the Billy Wolf character like is not even anywhere near and they keep calling him Billy do Wolf, like he's the fucking
magician in the Frosty cartoon. Billy d Wolf's a different guy. I don't know if my years were deceiving me, but at some point I was like, they keep calling him Billy de Wolf. It was Billy Wolf. Really yeah, I don't know, so I have no no fucking idea, but it was a dialogue, just so like if.
You and then and then there's this, there's this moment they have this bizarre press conference at the end, and and Josh Lucas stands up and gives the end the final line of Scott Hall's Hall of Fame induction speech.
So like word for word, I watched YouTube for six hours before writing the script, right, like what the fuck?
Uh?
It's bad times don't last, but bad guys do right, right, Yeah, exactly, but awful. It made these like nineteen fifties press conferences seem like you're like standard modern wrestling, like, you know, here's here's your ten minutes to speak promo time, when there's like no indication that that's how they went at all. It would just they would take questions the press conference. They would take any questions. They just like cut promos right.
Everyone just like writes down what they're saying. Let me give me a break.
I don't know, it's just it's weird to make a movie about nineteen fifties pro wrestling and kind of not adjust the portrayal of the business to that day and kind of kind of make it seem like how modern wrestling works, you know, and how modern matches play out. You know, the clips they showed, it's of the actual archival footage. It's like they did not do all these spots and all that shit not at.
All right exactly. It didn't seem that hard to get right. But you know what wrestling movies can't get right is like explaining if it's real or not, like right, they want to say it's fake, But then they don't. They leave the audience that doesn't know or care clueless as to whether this is supposed to be a real fight and this one isn't. Well, it's like they can't really get understand the drama behind the scenes at times, right like that that's where that's where the real interest is.
That's where the real drama happens. You know, it's like they're either unwilling to accept that or they just can't fathom how crazy it actually is. Yeah, I mean, all you have to do is whoever the main character is, when he or she has their first training session, you have the trainer explain to the main character what is and isn't real in the ring, and you do the
rest of the movie from there. It's iron Claw. You know, you got Fritz subwhere to win the world title like and then in the next breath, every match is pretty tarb It's awful, So not that hard to get, right, I don't think maybe it is, but that's always tough when you're watching, like a mainstream attempt at a wrestling movie is it's like, you know, the people in the theater watching it with you have no earthly idea if this is supposed to be real or not the matches
when they shut are showing the matches themselves. I mean, Darren aaron Off, you got it right, he did. That's true. There's not one moment in there that that that you think it's real. But I mean, I don't understand. I don't know say why it's so hard, bi chef, But I will, I will. I want to say here I did find the the Craig Leathers part here, So it's not that whole paragraph, it's the last phrase.
This is what.
Uh, this is what Bischoff says. He says right now, Terry Taylor, Craig Leathers, and a nette author work together with me to lay out to lay out our television and pay perviews. I have the final say on everything that goes on television, good or bad. But it is sincerely a team effort and all the people I mentioned contribute to the final product. The same will be true when and if Kevin Sullivan returns to w CW fascinating. So there we go.
Yeah, then who's gonna who's going to remember that and find that and put it in a Wikipedia besides Craig himself.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm off on an island tiers aulating.
But sorry to keep on this, but this is fascinating, this little chat. But someone asks whose name is hbk rissas.
That sounds like a nineteen ninety six screen name if I've ever heard once or ninety seven?
Eric, how do you feel about Nash and Sean doing the click nWo sign on TV to say hi to each other? And he says, I don't have a strong feeling one way or another. I know it bothered some people in my company, but honestly, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I suppose I wouldn't want it to happen on a regular basis, wouldn't it happen on a regular bass But it really didn't register with me.
That became like the signature thing in WCW for a year wolf Pack's eend sign. Bischoff and Leathers came up with the idea that many commercial break should be taken during live matches. While some fans at the time found it distressing, this gave the matches it reads here an unpredictable feeling to the show. Many times Nitro would go overtime when ratings were high sometimes even up to fifteen minutes past their schedule time slot. Yeah, this happened at
World War three. Rare on the time that WWF I think started going to eight fifty seven at the three minute jump. That this is when they were like moving the time slots around to figure out how to compete. A few interesting shots from the ninety five ninety eight Enter telecast include a station this is definitely him, a stationary camera with surrounding crowd high in the rafters giving
a wide, panting view of the arena. A jib camera framed on props, Oh my god, in pieces of equipment on the set that would boom or whippan onto the entranceway. Oh yeah, all fans definitely definitely writing that in his Wikipedia yeah exactly. And various steadycam shots following wrestlers to the ring, with the jib and steadycam both having wide It's.
Like, it's like he found out I bet there was, Like I bet he found out that there was a page that was dedicated to him, you know, because they're I don't know, they seem to be always added at random, and you never know who the fuck and and he's just like freaking out.
Like Oh, wait a minute, Wait a minute, that's not that's not right. I gotta tell him what I did exactly. This revolutionary shit starts talking the inside lingo with no citations about jibcams and steadycams and wide angle length.
Oh my god, look at home. My hold on, I'm reading this thing now, and with the jib instead, He describes his techniques. Yes, with the jib, nobody else. Having wide angle lenses right in there, right, and in close proximity on the set, there was a high risk of one camera capturing another. Depending on the position of the jib. Leathers would sometimes have the steadycam frame a shot on the ground. When cross dissolved to the steadikam, the operator
would tilt up and quickly move towards the subject. Yeah, this would prove to be a stylish wipe sequence between both cameras, and it gave the effect, and an effect gave the jib move more time to swing out of view.
Wow, I mean, that's just that's what you'd expect any TV producers wikipedia to sound like. When Bischoff was removed, it further says from Power in September ninety nine, Leathers would continue to direct the show for the remainder of the year, but with creative restrictions put upon him. With the new management in charge, they wanted to change ww's
format to resemble WWF nowww style of broadcast. Changes in production included tinkering of camera angles, such as the removal of the steady cam from the entranceway to be replaced by a standard hendheld camera zoned zoomed in from ringside. Although that change and angle may not have been as visually pleasing to some, the new management did so to better ebulate the look to him.
Some not as visually pleasing to him.
It's almost like, you know, his signature's got taken away and he's like explaining it here, you know. On the Februy nineteen, two thousand and one, Nitro Broadcast, Leathers resumed position of television director, around the time Bischoff regained some control of the company. I didn't know that interesting. With WWF for sale, Bischoff and this investors deal to purchase
the company failed when Turner executives canceled ww's timeslots. Eventually, WFWWWE would go on to purchase several assets of WCW In late March two thousand and one, forcing many employees, including Leathers, to be laid off.
Where you at, Craig, Where are you at right? Testify? We'll do a podcast with you find us? Yep, Why are you afraid? Why aren't you talking? Where's a net?
Mmm?
You ready for a list of everyone in the Battle Royal or at least?
Uh? This is the first report in.
The Observer of who is going to be in the nineteen ninety six World War Three Tony Rumble? Did you see him in the fucking Bledsoe jersey?
Yeah?
Behind the Patriots jersey coming to the ring? Yeah, unbelievable.
I mean, I thought we would have a reason to talk about the Boston bad boy indie legend Tony.
Rumble, No fucking idea. Who's We'll get to it. Luger Anderson, Arn Anderson, Ben wah D DP, Steve McMichael, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Jim Powers, Jeff Jarrett, Dean Malenko, Conan Bubba that is uh, who's Bubba? That must be? It must be uh Ray Trailer. But he was was he big Bob at the time? Yeah? He probably was. Oh yeah, he was bout yeah, yeah, Carlan Heat French Canadians. Jack Boot. Do you know what jack boot is? No fucking jack boot.
That was one of many names that Buddy Lee Parker used in WCW. We're named Dwayne Bruce. So when you see Buddy Lee Parker come out to the to the World War three, know that that is jack Boot and not Sergeant Buddy Lee.
All right, well, thank you. I was I was confused.
Both American males Buff Bagwell and Scottie Rigg, Steve Regal Hove, Entude Guerrera humorous. Did you see Big Ron Studd in there? Aka Ron Reese aka the Yeta?
I did see.
I did see Ron goofy Ass, Roadblock, La Parker, David Taylor, Disco Inferno, Jim Duggan, Bobby Eaton, Meng Barbarian, Joe Gomez is in World War Three.
You didn't even remember these people. This was like an exercise on payroll. Joe Gomez. I do remember being such a regular on Nitro at the time. Oh yeah, all throughout like the the the Yeah, probably like summer to the round this time in ninety six. He was all over doing jobs all the time. Yeah.
He went on to sue WW for his portrayal as a Native American idiot. No that they didn't have to portray anything to get that across Sullivan High Voltage. Both members of the team Ice trained Prince Akaia Johnny Grunge from The Public Enemy Renegade was in the World War Three. Mike Enos Mikey knows is a good trivia question because he was wrestling when Scott Hall hit the ring on that first time on Nitro. Is Mike Enos in the ring against two? I don't recall, but I do remember
his mike Y knows. Yeah. We also have Luscious Luther. No, but that was of course I put that in there because it was in the Observer with a question marked next to it. Even Dave Meltzer, covering the business as closely as he did back then, did not know who
Luscious Luther was supposed to be. And I'm pretty sure he does not actually come out, because we're going to read you next the fullest who actually was in the match and see if it compares bunkhouse Buck, Michael wall Street, Alex Wright, Mark Starr, Ceclope, Galaxy super Low, Who doesn't who doesn't end up making it? Felino Felina was listed and wasn't there. Now Fellini wasn't there either.
Craig. You know, the way he talks about his work. Could a cool fool? Honestly I think he. Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that he thinks he is Felleenie about Jimmy Graffiti. How about not? Who was Jimmy Graffiti, Jimmy del Ray Oh get yes, yes, he's in a painter's cap.
When he comes to the ring. Fucking Christ Raymond, Stereo, Junior Ultimore, Dragon, Scott Norton, Craig Pittman, j L.
Buck.
I don't even know who that was. I think it's supposed to be Oh no, excuse me, let me let
me rewind that j L is one wrestler. That was Jerry Lynn Jerry and then Buck but they had already but they already listed him earlier in what I just read, so they listed him twice on parallel unless there was a wrestler named Buck was supposed to be in at one point, Mike Winner, Vic Steamboat who wasn't in there, and Kevin Nash and in the Vic Steamboat brother, Oh my god, Steamboat and indeed you heard it right, No giant in the original lineup that was circulated and Giant
goes on to win the thing.
So that's wild. And apparently there was advertising out at one point that Sting was going to be in the nineteen ninety six World War three. Yeah, I can imagine that.
They were still in that weird place and we'll get to it where they knew Sting was going to be this brooding, you know, rafter dwelling character who is going to do mysterious things and attack people for reasons that left you scratching your head. But the idea that he wouldn't wrestle until December of nineteen ninety seven was not necessarily set in stone. Yet he was doing matches on
television tapings as crow Sting. He is really yep, he's a playable character in that gear in the first video game WCW Versus the World that they came out with in this era for the PlayStation.
No shit.
Here he is in like a black cut off top with the scorpion on it, in black long pants and just that almost entirely white face like the Marcel Marceau look he's got going this before he got much more detailed with the black stripes on his face, and he's wrestling. I mean, I just God, those guys at the ww vault, this YouTube thing, that's your challenge. You got to find me a match. Sting working in the gear he was wearing in.
The fall of that. Yeah, gotta see it.
There was a worldwide taping he wrestled. Will detail it in a moment. There was several house shows that he wrestled as this sting. I'm completely obsessed with, like how he presented himself, you know what I mean, Like was he doing the old move set? Was he was he still howling or was he just acting like a brooding kind of emo guy. I have no idea, but I must know, must Yeah, that is that is crucial. So yes,
very interesting. And they added the Canadians Versus Harlem heat match quite late in the running, and as we know, ultimately the lineup doesn't differ tremendously. I'm just gonna try to hear point out anybody who came out that wasn't in that lineup, although it does note here in The Observer that Ron Studd was called John Studd several times by Dusty Rhodes on commentary. Yes he was, Yeah, John Studd was definitely not in the nineteen ninety six World War three Battle Royal.
Yeah, yeah, I missed that one. Was he dead or as.
Wattley was in the World War Three and he wasn't in that initial lineup? Steve McMichael, Let's see, how about the Galaxy made it? But yeah, the Giant was actually in there, Jack Boot Okay, check that box, and uh, that's pretty much reck Steiner was in there. Scott was hurt. Pardon me, Scott Steiner was hurt at the time. Even that doesn't stop Lee Marshall from one point telling us though, that Scott Steiner was just eliminated.
That was hilarious. I'm like, Scott Steiner wasn't even the match. What is he talking about?
Sure enough he called somebody else Scott Steiner, Yeah, of course, who wasn't. Meltson noted at the time the lineup changed in the last week as they added most of the nw WILL members, including Giant who ended up winning, that weren't scheduled originally to be part of it. Even though Sting was in all the advertising as a participant, the decision was made weeks ago against him being in it.
I mean, that's crucial. If they put Sting in this thing after launching the Crow Death disaster to tell us why. I mean, I think it's intuitive, but why would it be a disaster? Because I mean, the whole idea is, why would you the character? You know, why would he come into this match after he just said he doesn't trust anybody? You know, why would he Why would he.
Get in the ring with sixty guys or fifty nine other guys? How would that be a fight he'd been interested in having right now, right he'd already did the you know, the only thing that's for sure about Sting is nothing for sure. And line walking out on Team WCW with the Fallbrell war games as if it's the fucking first time you ever said that, it's then a million guns.
Well this time it actually resonated, right, and he had stopped talking, and he shows up during the match between the Giant and Jeff Jarrett for the US title earlier in the show and reverse DDT's Jeff Jarrett, and that was like, oh my god, he's in the nWo. He just did that to Jeff Jarrett. He's in the nWo.
But he would walk.
Away, He wouldn't stand shoulder to shoulder with the nWo. They had yet to bring out the nWo Sting. I'm pretty sure they hadn't done that that thing of agg yet. Oh yeah, no, yeah, wait you have they had they had, okay, because they did it at Fall Brawl. He just isn't on this show. So I felt like he hadn't debuted yet. Look, that's what started the whole thing. Yes, they they thought he was Sting and then Sting came out.
That's right, Yep, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, and then you know what though, I think while they did do that, I don't think they introduced nWo Sting as a weekly character yet. I was like, you know, and they're all like grouped together, they are like making faces at the camera like he's not in there yet. He definitely didn't come before well, I'm almost certain he didn't come before Buff Marcus Bagbell joined, which was the night after on Nitro he turns on Scottie
Riggs and he wasn't in the ring for that. So I think NBO Sting making another appearance and actually wrestling for the nWo and Black and White was still on the cover, because I think he was there when wall Street joined and Virgil, well, Virgil was already there they already had Virgil, which is a good deal.
I like that.
I forgot all about that that like Tedy Biassi brings Virgil and Teddy Biassi's the money man in the nWo.
That made a lot of sense to me, totally did. I was a fan of that.
TBIASI had more uh to contribute as a manager as opposed to this, sure this television announcer idea they had for him, and but that by ninety seven he's like a baby face manager managing the Steiner brothers, Like.
What is going on here? So fucking weird, so weird.
Tobiasci was one guy you could convince what was key to THEWO besides the giant that which was kind of a weird one. You could convince yourselves that these guys had loyalty to do. At the end of the day, they were Wolfson Sheep's clothing on the WCW.
They were actually the like kind of the big ones at least for sure. And then you can start recruiting goofballs like Bagwell and stuff.
Right, So it's it's a fascinating time in WCW and it's it's a quite nice flip side of the coin having just done the nineteen ninety six WWF Royal Rumble. Earlier, we get to take a look at WCW's Battle Royal pay per view from that same year. It's it's definitely nineteen ninety six vibes around here for some reason this year on.
I know it's been all over. Seriously, we had so many ninety six shows last year, thirty six or eighty six, right, you take your pick. Yeah, right, seems to be that six.
It is Sean Waltman included, and we're finally getting here to World War three, and we're finally getting to the opportunity to let you know that once again, you're co chairman TLF are partnering with the folks at Dark Side of the Ring. You probably have seen by now the announcement for season two of Unheard, the Dark Side of the Ring companion podcast that will be rolling out weekly along with Season six of Dark Side of the Ring, which premiere is here at the end of the month
on Weiss. Hopefully you tuned in last time. It was a smash as we go through the deep archives of Dark Side interviews with people in and around the wrestling business, so many fascinating subjects that they've sat down with and just try to pick out little nuggets that didn't make the show or just didn't fit the theme of the show, but deserve to be surfaced. Wrestling fans deserve to hear some of these insights from some of these folks.
You may have.
Yeah, by the time this dropped, heard our interview with Josh Nason on the Wrestling Observer side about this project. Yes, but definitely a pleasure. You do want to check it out. It's going to be video two, so your co chairman are on camera, unlike last season, which was audio only. My gosh, this is something they tell us, boss, we must do, right, isn't that the current wisdom and podcasting?
And that's what they say you must do it. But I'll be the judge of that. Thank you very so.
Waiting to meet the person who watches a podcast instead of listens to it while he's doing other.
Things, you know, that's the thing. That's one thing I don't understand that logic. I mean, I know, obviously people do because everyone's doing their podcast on camera and stuff like that. I just don't. It's just not something that I'm interested in doing. Yeah, I'm just I gotta see these people. I want to watch real shows, yeah right, but I want sitting down. Yeah, I don't want to watch a podcast. I want to watch fucking uh you know whatever.
And I'll let you know, by the way, if you put YouTube on in the car and you listen to a two hour podcast via YouTube in the car, I don't care. If the video's on, that doesn't count as video. And if that's what all this.
Right, you didn't watch it.
And if that's what all this hooplab about video is about and podcasting all of a sudden, not knowing the difference between someone watching it on YouTube and not watching the video, just using it for the audio because it's easy, versus actually watching the video, then I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, but I do know that advertisers struggle to understand anything but video. And so if they say video is it, all of a sudden, everyone says video is it?
So here you go.
You get what you asked for, and we're excited to do it, and it's going to be a really nice companion piece to the next season, A dark side of the Ring, which you know, yeah, for sure, Chairman have played no small part in helping along the way certain dedicated episodes that we had expertise in because of the stuff we've been able to do here on the main feed for everybody. So it's it's a wonderful deal, So
do check it out. I think it's going to be every Wednesday on the Vice TV and Dark Side of the Ring YouTube channels and let us know what you think. It's also going to be available in audio form and all your typical podcast catchers like the one you used to listen to this show, So no excuses as far as that goes. But we're gonna have some fun and we do hope you joined us. And thanks to the folks at Vice TV and Dark Side of the Ring for deeming the twenty five wrestling podcast of the year worthy.
Absolutely, I mean it's a it's we're worthy and we're deserved.
Ye.
Doubters are going to have to go quiet for another twelve months. Sorry, Ye, So that's worth checking out. You also want to know that Patreon's rocking and rolling here in WrestleMania season pion dot com slash elapsed Fan not just for those live calls as we head into the big one to night live call coming your way on Easter weekend as we hive at WrestleMania, but also of course under the cinemat where we just see we can see the peak, Yeah, yes we can.
And there are two of them, and uh we are you know, listen, it's been uh, just scheduling in life. I'll just say that has been in the way and it'll be wrapping up of course, are our twin peaks. David Lynch tribute with a nice look and also you know, a look beyond. You know, we kind of it's it's gonna be a real a real uh uh uh coming
like a real great conclusion to to David Lynch. And I'm sure we'll be able to revisit him at some point, but you know, it's it's really amazing the longevity that he did have, and uh, it's it's gonna be fun to be fun to to to get there.
I agree, it's the lawn Wrestling Podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need their candy. It's the Lapsed Fan. He's the Lapsed Fan Wrestling Podcast with Jack and Cano m JP SOROW.
I agree, it's been a wonderful introduction to David Lynch, and now every time I see you, I make you do David Lynch, and that's a good thing. Last time we heard from him, he was commenting on the John Cena Hill Turn and we had a hell of a chat when putting one hitting the road to film unheard
about the scene of heel turned. And you know, I was hoping that it wouldn't be too late to quickly surface this because by the time people listen to this, I think Sena is scheduled to make his first appearance since turning heel on raw, so the presentation will be pretty clear. But man, we got you remember that episode we did after Star K ninety eight, how the nWo should have ended? We did that with how the scene
of heel turn should go right? I mean, this was like what we were doing was was was classic din dining hall booking. Yes, that we would do in college. We booked how you know Goldberg should come into WWE after WSW was folded and all that, and how to do the invasion angle perfectly? But here, I mean we landed on a million money ideas, but just what's what's most important if they're doing it right, which is how we think they should do it. What should Seenea do?
What should he emphasize the main thing. And and I don't think I don't think he should show up until Russell Mate. Yes, I never thought of that until you said it. That is the absolute thing to do, especially if he's winning and his title reign is going to be something that takes you through four or five months. I see him rain until SummerSlam at least. I agree he should not show his face until he makes he parts that curtain in Vegas.
What I am hoping I know that, I've even seen that he's supposed to be on TV on Monday. What I am hoping happens. What I am hoping happens is that they and it'll be all over by the time you listen to this. Is that is that you know, they say he's going to come out, but it's Rock. Instead Rock comes out, and that's what happens. There are these like every time John Seene is supposed to make an appearance, Rock says no no no no.
No no no no no no no no no.
Cotins it's not time. Wow And what is that a cone? It just it's like it drives people crazy. It makes you want to see him more, you know, it makes you want to say, see because they because what's what's gonna be money, and what people are interested in is how he looks. That's the key. And we we thought, because to me, what you have to do is go completely opposite of everything we've ever seen of John c.
Yeah, I was I had in my mind black shorts that go past his knees, like almost to his shins, like capri almost pants. But you were like, no, he shouldn't even wear shorts. And I was like, I don't know what to do right now, because.
That's the thing. It's very hard. You don't know how to dress him. But I think he should go bald. Yeah, number one, I think he should grow a beard. My god, And like I want to see John Cena the first time. We like in a way, like we see him come out at WrestleMania the first night and the first time he comes out to talk. He walks out again, shaved head, full beard, sunglasses, three piece suit, and he comes out with the World Championship on the night after Wrestleman.
And I think it'd be a nice touch if it was one of those three times too big for him suits that he used to wear in Total Divas, which is the heel, right there. I mean, the way he behaves on that show is what he has to bring out of himself right now. Why does he have to be bald? Why is that important to you? Because the hair is a problem. We've been saying it.
That doesn't help him. He has problematic hair if he's a heel. No, I don't think so, I don't think. I don't think seeing healed John Cena with his hair parted and the bald spot, it does not work. It does not work. He still looks goofy. So you want like a buzz cutter, you want all the way down to the skin, like Steve Austin. He can do either one, either one like maybe the buzz cut that he had before. I think the facial hair is crucial. How long of
a beard? I mean, at a certain point, if I picture him with like a mountain beard, I actually started no, no, no, no, no no, not like not like a fisherman beard, like going you know, like hanging off, not like trying wants in, you know, castaway. No, I mean it's gotta be a I think a full beard maybe just now, it's gotta be a full beard. But it's like clean, it's very clean, you know, like it's it's very very well like stubble.
No no, no, no, full beard like full beard like you can yeah ish sure again, I don't think it needs to be as bushy. I think it can be. It can be very well like groomed, but it needs to be a full beard. And uh, you know, if I'm gonna be completely honest, I was. I I took some time over the weekend to kind of tinker with what Johnsena would look like in uh video, sure, because you can change their costumes and stuff. Now, unfortunately, you can't change their hair, which I don't understand at all.
I think that should be one of the prime features in any wrestling game. You should be able to change their hair because their hair changes all the time, you know. Like that Why you can't change hair ad phasian la or take it away makes no sense to me. But I think but I took off, you know, I like put him in a number of outfits and I'll tell you you know what, he actually did not look bad. And I had him with plain old black trunks, black knee pads, black boots, black elbow pads, and he didn't
look awful. See.
I think if he looked like the gear he had when he first came in as ruthless aggression with just tights. I just I just don't see that as as heel.
I also tried. I also tried with with with Hogan's Hollywood Hogan long tights also worked. It works. That makes me so nervous because he's gotta wear boots. He can't wear sneakers anymore. Yeah, I can't wear sneaks. It can't be any John seens. It's gotta be real. I mean, but it's not actually awful because he could wear like, you know, like Kurt Angle's wrestling boots. They're so short, like real wrestling boots.
You know.
These are huge questions. Yeah, I mean I assume it'll be questions will be answered by the time you hear this, but I will be disappointed. Yeah, he shouldn't show up do Mania. I totally agree. I just don't think he should. I think that would be just an amazing thing that he because then it also gives you the chance to really change his look like you know you can. You can make it go crazy like you can, because because it'll be it'll be so weird to see.
He's like big leaguing Cody by not showing up exactly, it's Hollywood. Why is Hollywood important here? Because that's the thing you screamed when we did a live call of the Heel Turn available now in Patreon.
Hollywood. Yes, yes, that's because that's like you got Rock, you get Sina, that's your Hollywood connection. You know, it's it's great, it's great, it's great.
Let me tell you something. That's the way you should do organic phenomena for the ages. It's organic phenomena.
I love it.
I sat around the house, I drank coffee, and I decided exactly how John Cena should look as I heal.
He should dress like Frank Silva as Bob and.
He comes out with sunglasses and he what he does he talk to the people? Does he talk down to them? Does he does he have like a serious voice or does he kind of talk street again?
No, I mean he's got to just talk normal but very very very money.
Tell That's where I was going, kind of like I think of, uh, what's like he's kind of in a trance almost.
Like like like like Jericho did when he was wearing the suit, you know, like just uber serious, wow, uber serious Johns. What does that belt look like on his shoulder. Oh, it's got to be the Spine belt because that's the real that's for him, the real championship. That was his championship. And he can say that, he can say he can say, you see what I did, Cody, I got my belt. Hack. You had yours for like a little you know, a little whatever, a little playtime at the Saturday's main event.
But this is mine that it's going to be here, you.
Know, with a suit, sunglasses, beard, spinner belt on his shoulder.
I think me fucking money, huh. I hate the Spinner belt, but I hate it my least favorite championship. All. I kind of like that, you're kind of but I like the idea of having it happen like he's right exactly, you're doing exactly. I mean, they've done I'll say this, they've done well enough having him off TV for now. I think that was that's good.
It's worked out. That's why I believe in the idea because it hasn't hurt. It's actually increased interest in him.
Right.
And I I don't know if he hasn't been on TV because that's strategic, or if it's just you know, he wasn't available but this is how you do it.
You know he does.
You don't see him UNTI WrestleMania. You heard it here first, I mean it's it's Hogan, Hogan turning heel. I mean they did there. He didn't show up for like a week or two himself.
And I had a suggestion for that week one or two maybe, where he's in the ring and carrying on and Rocks there and they're acting like huge big shots and who comes to the ring Nikki Bella, Yes, oh my, oh my god. And you give her license to say everything to his face that ever bothered her when they went out, and why she ultimately couldn't marry him. And that was enough for me to be an electrifying segment. But you took it a step further, which had seem to do from there.
I.
Said, to really to really make himself to be a crazy ass heel. She's done, she's done talking. She says, you know, what do you have to say for yourself? And he just stares at her for a while. Keep mine still sunglasses on, it's not taking them a nice touch. Still get sunglasses on, just like rock And after a few a few yep, after a few moments, grabs her by the fucking oh my god, grabs her by the hair,
pulls her into his face. The microphone drops. It's gonna one of those classic moments where he's talking to her, but we don't hear it. We just see him like he's pointing a finger, pointing a finger, you know, like kind of you know, almost ragged all on her by the by the head. And it probably can't happen in twenty twenty five, but I was like, you have to do. He's got to go jake on her and paintbrush across the face and knock her to the ground right across the face.
And you want to be a heel, I think that would want to be. I think you want to cook with gas. I don't say we didn't tell you how to do it, just telling you. I think that would be an absolutely absolutely lose money. Yeah, they would be hot on the rail.
They would I mean it would be it would be Yeah, it would be just classic heel heat from like Puerto Rico. Heel just stands over her. She is she's stunned, she's not knocked out. She's holding her face. Yeah, yeah, and you know, tears and stuff like she's just bawling. I think it'd be money. I think that would be I think you'd you'd have a fucking game. Yeah you would.
That's accelerant right there, That is accelerant. And then of course I'd take a step further, didn't I. I said to him, what about this? We're riding in the car, coming back from taping on her, what about this?
Just like you said?
I replayed to JP everything he just said, right up to the point grabs her, pulls her in and then takes out a nine milimeter and shoots her in the head.
Gets so dark, and then and then and then I added, yes that he looks to the hard camera, he's got this a crazy face on. There's blood all over him.
And then he puts the gun of his head and he shoots himself, and you're just and then you just sit on the hard camera for like longer than it should be, to the point that it makes people uncomfortable, Like everyone is silent, like nobody's moving, Like what did we just fucking see two dead blood in the fin and the camera just like that medium that not the full wide but the one that kind of is like just a little bit shorter than the ring you're waiting
from Craig Leathers Wikipedia again, Yes I am. Yes, we use the jib and we'll dissolve into the steady cam. No, but we like and just hold it and then you cut the black w B Entertainment. Hey, bring that back, just for that. I haven't seen it in like ten years. I mean, it's amazing, it's amazing. Oh my god.
Like he's like the next week he comes out, I don't care what you think of me for doing that to her. She deserves it and not you know whatever you have to say to like double down, and this is if we erase the suics the murder suicide.
Yeah, of course, yes, of course that was just a that was just a what if modernism in a box.
And he's like, you know, I treat women, you know, the same way I treat anybody else. If you don't respect me, blah blah blah, and he's going off. He's like, who's gonna stop me?
Anyway?
I got the rock right here, he's the boss man, triple H, gonna do shit.
And then.
No chance, no chance, Oh yeah that's right. Vince comes out. You don't have what it takes. Ah, you don't have what it takes no that that would be a bad idea.
But I did find myself, you know, we thought Brock yes, and then Brockwinn did think, but yes, because Brock should come back and ruin his moment, like he ruined Brock's moment by beating him in extreme rules, right, he came back, Yeah, and Brock would be the guy that's absolutely like so like sick of the of what sick to his stomach?
What scena did you could be you know, it could he could be the lesser of two evils in this scenario because you know, Brock did a lot for Cody, shook Cody's hand like when he lost to him at SummerSlam. He he has equity in Cody, and he'd endorsed Cody, and to see what Sina did to Cody would make sense that Brock would come back and kill Sina. And that'd be a hot program because that would be the flip.
I'd be the inverse of the two thousand and three when Brock was the face you know, or that'd be revisioning.
Oh yeah, that dynamic. Yeah, I mean think about this one thing. Think about there that that Brock and scene a go way back to two thousand and three back in Let's book, Let's book, Baby Brother, Brother, that's it. That's exactly right. I know that's right.
And I got another idea too, one more on this. Yeah, if you're running out of things for seeing it to say, you know, week ten, all you got to do go back on his Twitter, go back on his Twitter and have him read those obnoxious, faux faux motivational tweets that would be in a heal voice like he did, like you know, like I didn't mean any of it, or I meant it to the point that it's completely obnoxious.
And he's still giving us life advice even though he's doing like the absolute least ethical things in the world. He's still giving us life advice. He still doesn't get that we don't turn to him for motivation and we have no idea why he anointed himself motivator in chief. But apparently that's part of the of the of the grift these days is you also have to be motivator in addition to being a multimillionaire movie star. So, uh,
that would be great. Well, he's a you know, he's a lot of people look up to his people look up to me.
He's a role Model's let's get people going to work at the mina key because they read a scene of tweet and felt motivated to get up. Yeah right, get motivated and fucking change of muffler speaking of the Rhodes family.
But you're welcome for all those ideas, and I look forward to them subtly turning to them as the as the well runs a bit dry and pretending they never heard us.
They're gonna say, you know, they'll, they'll, you know, he'll come out on Monday and then but you know, like what if we don't have him come out again? Oh man, that's good stuff.
So that's the kind of thoughts starters that uh, some of these Patreon live calls can can birth. So you want to be with us for the whole evolution through Wrestle maybe that, and of course also for the moat tier, the tip top tier, the one that we know is rich for a lot of people's blood, and we respect and understand that. But for those who can't afford, we give them Wrestle. Mamia every Monday, back to the living room carpet with Boss Man and Mama Sorrow.
We do, we do, indeed, and you know, WrestleMania season is upon us, and uh so you know we're we're we're doing that with with wrestle Mamia as well. We keep that ship moving along because I believe I believe in a good theme. I believe in a good theme. And uh, coming up, let's see here, what do we got? What will be coming up?
Is?
Oh? Oh wow, really wow? Yeah, I guess wow, I guess it hasn't really happened. Hogan versus under the giant. Holy shit. Yeah, that's a spot on. This is a giant coming up. So that's what you're here next. Big ship, big ship there.
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to World War Three in nineteen ninety six. It was a time when Hollywood was trying to come to terms with Hollywood.
That is to say, indeed, we all know.
The big hold up about turning heel is what happens to your baby face, press appearances and merchandise sales to the kids. And you know, do Regis and Kathy Lee want to have you on if you're not the red and yellow superhero anymore? But you're a dastardly bad guy. And Hulk navigated those waters masterfully because I can't think of a single thing he missed out on at the end of the day.
Yeah, no, I agree, I think he was. He was as That's the thing right there, You could You don't You don't really lose out. You know you're not gonna There are enough people who probably don't watch wrestling who still know who you are, and you know who they won't even know that you're a bad guy.
You know, he'll turn happening in July and by November when World War three happened. I think it's becoming pretty clear now the returns are coming in. In fact, people are leaning in. People want Hulkogan on the cable Ace Awards on Entertainment tonight on Readis and Kathy Lee. They want to earn what this whole thing is about. He went on QVC, I remember, shortly after turning heel and he did perfectly fine, just explaining to the host that he's now, you know, singing a different tune, but he's
still Hull Kogan. He's still the legend. Who's to say, maybe some endorsement came along, But what was so key is a lot of that well had run dry. It wasn't like it wasn't like there was like right in front of him. You know, six clients, let's say, six people who bought into the superhero Hull Coogan, who were
going to be suddenly faced with an existential decision. It was already over and seeing this case, it's not too dissimilar in that, you know, since he's been gone so long and intermittently involved, the WWE has moved on from a merchandise standpoint, It's not like right, that was always the big hold up when you know Vince was in power and seen it was on top for so long, even though crowds were rejecting him. It was like he was far and away the number one merchandise seller, and
that is real revenue. You would compromise, would you? I don't know, I mean would less people would probably buy, like the kids wouldn't buy John Cena merchandise if he turned heel back. Then now it's Cody merchandise, it's punk merchandise, it's Roman and Bloodline merchandise. It all takes care of itself there. You know, they're not as relying on seen as once a year new T shirt. So it's a
perfect time from that perspective. You're not even sacrificing anything, which one wouldn't expect to be able to say about Sina, But here we are. And so this is instructive in that context to go back and look at what November
nineteen ninety six was like for hul Kogan. He had appeared on Entertainment Tonight and a Regis and Kathy early in the month of November because he's on the road too at the same time building up what Boss what comes out at the end of nineteen ninety six, Oh, Sandwar's Muscle with Muscles, the very first movie ever to
get the under the cinemat treatment. That is correct, the movie that inspired the whole concept in so many ways, and indeed indeed it was you know, kicking it off with a Christmas season right now, tell the people kind of how the nWo angle was stitched into your coverage of that movie.
Well, the the angle. It's interesting because the the the angle itself wasn't almost as involved. Well, the there were a couple of things, there was the mustache and there were but mainly that's where it was on set that Bischoff came and said, you know, and Hogan did the brother who's the third guy. Yes, that's where it all. Yeah, in reality, it happened on set, like he called him out.
Michell flew out the right, Bischoff flew out to meet to meet with the Hogan and it was on It was on that fucking uh movies.
But he also sent in videos, didnting out that they played on Nitro from the Santa with Muscles future movie sets right where he's.
Talking or is that is that one of the that's I think that's later, that's one of his later ones. I don't think he did. I don't think he did that.
Yes, that's what played into the Hollywood thing is yeah, I'm not even on Nitro this week, I'm on set, you know.
And it was legit.
He wasn't a movie set by a movie that he booked before he decided to turn heel. And they just leveraged it.
Right right. I think they they they they they leveraged it. I yeah, it was later on that they would do sulta Devil's Island kind of movies. Yeah. Specifically, the one that I remember that we that we uh we definitely used was when he was filming McKinsey's Islands Island. That was it with with what's this fucking uh Vaughn Robert Voss jo. Yeah, that was that was.
What was one of the surprising things about Hogan going out into the wider entertainment world now as a heel is that there were celebrities who were kind of into the idea of like a bad guy wrestler rubbing shoulders with him and like being in the nWo was like funny, like not funny but like it was kind of a cool thing to do. And you look back now and all this nineties Instalgia, the nWo T shirts coming back a few years ago and like everyone like loving that as like an icon their childhood.
Because and it's kind of interesting because the movie would have and I do remember them hyping this movie up too around this time because it happened in November is when it came out. Yes, it came out in November, and it was you know, it's only in theaters for two weeks, Santa's muscles. It's fucking horrible two weeks. And then he did he also did uh the fucking thing. Oh, I know he did do a like a there wasn't like an ap video piece about it, Like there's video
if you go onto YouTube. I remember finding it like they actually they had people on set, like they had video and like news reports on set. It's such fucking bullshit, but it's there. They're they're covering him turning heel or they're covering the movie. No, covering him the movie because he hadn't turned here yet. This would have been in May May of ninety six, when he was filming the movie. That's like so weird.
It's like an anacron It's like, Wow, no, that's not Hall Coogan anymore. Guys, you're showing me something that's dead to me.
And uh but yeah.
So by the time this came around, as fate would have it, Hulks got all these promotional obligations for this movie that, to your point, was shot before the Heel Turn and now he's got to go around and be Hollywood Hogan in these formats and it's it's fascinating to see play out. The Cable Ace Awards were in its second to last year. Do you remember the Cable Ace Awards at all?
What those were?
Yeah?
I do, I do, vaguely. I remember them having them, But I mean, was it just for ta cable programming or was it exactly? It was celebrating the best in cable and it was a it was a Turner production, but it was involving HBO and everything in cable as opposed to the Emmys, which you know, the EM's doesn't have anything but against cable, but it's you have to compete against network shows as well, right in the Emmys, I mean at the time, Yeah, yeah, you have to
compete against network shows. Yet so here, you didn't have to compete. Nothing was yeah. Yeah, so because nothing was really that, you know, like it wasn't that cable shows weren't as hot as they are now, obviously, and at the time, what was the hottest showing cable It was Nitro and right it was wrong. It is because you you know, when you exclude network, you exclude the big network hits, but you also exclude a lot of the
sports that would be on the big networks. There were some cable sports, but you know, all of a sudden, ninety six ninety seven, wrestling is the toast of the cable world. And yeah, certainly if you know it's a Turner production, the Cable Ace Awards, they're going to celebrate what they particular in TN T and TBS have on cable that that's a hit, and that is Hull Cogan, and that is Kevin Nation, Scott Hall, that is the nWo.
Yeah.
So there's a period of time in November nineteen ninety six where like, you know, the Turner itself was saying, here are our wrestling stars. Here, here's the heart of why we're doing such incredible ratings on Monday nights. Yeah, so here's a piece that aired on E Entertainment Television that kind of looks at, you know, the nWo such as it was in November nineteen ninety six, along with
the Sandal with Muscles and kable Ace Awards hype. It's fascinating to think about just the mainstream media covering this heel Hogan. You know, probably where they wouldn't have covered the baby face Hogan. They probably wouldn't given a shit if he stayed babyface to do a piece like this.
Well wrestling champ Hulk Hogan's career could now be aptly titled the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. All our E cameras caught up for the New Hollywood Hulk Hogan and his band of vigilantes who call themselves the nWo or the New World Order as they crashed last month's kable As Awards here in Los Angeles.
All these people here, along with Ted Turner, got a lot of gold Man. We are the heartbeat of honors cable show on TV today. They call it w CW Monday Nitro soon to be nw OH Life for Life. So tonight we decided they're playing man. They know the deal going going the back door hunk a few guys pushed him out of the way and grabbed ted Turner by a skinny little neck and take What's.
Hard Spinner Broadcastings WCW Monday Night Nitro has become one of the hottest two hours of live programming each week on cable television.
And once again w c W.
Shut the world.
Executive vice president and producer of WCW Monday Nitro, Eric Bishaff, brought wrestling out of the doldrums and into the mid nineties by taking the beloved Holster and turning him bad.
I'm not surprised at all at the popularity of the nWo. You know it all started with Scott Hall and Kevin Nash came along, and then hul Cogan abandoned that red and yellow stuff that he.
Was doing for so long.
I did everything for the kids in the recept.
I got why I came out here.
You fans him, decad brother.
This from the man who's soon to be seen portraying Santa at Christmas time now says, spits defiled and beats up anyone in his path.
Hogan has his own unique.
View on his dual career, So you don't wander. The kids are so much smarter.
Than you people here at ETV, man, I mean, give me a break.
The kids know the nWo is cool.
They know what it takes to get by. But then when it's time to take care of business, you step in the rain, you make the first move. When it's time to be Santa, you step up to the mark and chop down the first tree. We just got them body slam and Turners organizations, big high rise in Atlanta and the whole WCW. Now the nWo, we're gonna bodyslam Beverly Hills and then we'll click around here just like we did the whole wrestling world.
Man, we make a garn with a win.
You do, guys, and Samson, maybe you could be Caesar, I mean, rankly, I don't give a.
Darn Scott Off.
Hogan just bow guarding the whole thing, like, oh yeah, as much of that swags as Holland Nash gave to the nWo before, well it wasn't even called the nWo yet before Hogan turn heel.
He just took up all the oxygen.
That was one of the cooler the things that Bishops had in his book. I thought was that you know the reason those black and white videos with those jump cuts with Hogan halland National Studio. Remember the one where
they're holding up an inflatable globe and all that. Yeah, the reason that's so jump cutty and like so stylized is because they just couldn't get a cut where Hogan it was ho guarding the whole conversation, right, It's like they had to cut it up because otherwise it would be ninety percent Hogan and the stuff they did have from Holland Nash wouldn't have wouldn't have been able to
get a word in edgewise. So they ended up with this really cool, like stylized thing when it was really just a way to break up Hogan's filibuster and here grabbing the camera and taking over, and you can kind of see like if they're getting that kind of attention, like an epiece, like yeah, yeah, let's let's keep this grave of train going. Let's not just let the WSW come back anytime soon, because the right guys are making the right money.
You know, right, I mean, hey, it makes it makes a little sense. It does.
So you have Hogan there kind of talking to America man. That brings back memories like that whole I was talking about, like the kids think it's cool that he's so right, like yep. It was like, no one thinks it's a bad thing that he turned heel. It's fucking awesome, yeah right, And and the mainstream media was like coming to terms with that, like this, the scene of reaction has been
so different because people now enough generations have turned. They know, like turn heel is just like a big moment in wrestling. It's not like it's not like kids are crying anywhere, although I'm sure some did, and we've seen videos of kids crying, but that's not the focus. The media is like glad to cover it as a heel turn. You know, they're asking Nikki Bella on the red carpet what she thinks about her ex's heel turn, and she's saying it's great.
She said, you know, I think it's a gift he's giving to his fans because now he actually can do it without any you know, give them that what what a scene of heel heel seen it would look like before he says goodbye, And they're like, you know, Rock's doing a press conference talking about it as a creative decision.
You know, oh my god, what a fucking phony.
Where was you know, where was Hogan out there doing a breast conference about how they you know, decided for storytelling purposes this was the best option available to them and an immediate climate that come on, No, we didn't do that. We just looked at the camera and we talked like a fucking right bastard.
Right right, that's what you do. And Drew Carrey made people believe.
Drew Carey was big too at the time in cable and he did the This Drew Carrey Show, right if we have a channel it was on Yeah, okay, so it.
Was network, wasn't Cable?
Yeah?
No, no, yeah, his show isn't it.
He was hosting and he was the host, I should say, of the Cable Ace Awards the year that this all was going down, Gary Shannling won for the Gary Channeling Show. I think it was best show or whatever. The no for Larry Sanders, not for the good that's what he said, right for his show, the Larry Sanders Show, which I'm sure Kevin Nash took close notes.
You know, oh absolutely, he was all over that.
Try to do Gary Shandling in WCW. When he would get the book infamously in nineteen ninety nine, and they actually showed during the course of the Cable Ace Awards, Roddy Piper in the audience scowling in a tuxedo. Wow, no shock, the nWo is getting all this attention. The idea was that, like the nWo showed up and I love how they used the Turner thing there. That's so great because they're supposed to be the WWF guys. They're
supposed to hate Ted Turner. They're supposed to be here to tip over Ted Turner's apple cart and fuck up his day, and they call him billionaire Ted. I mean, that's so brilliant. They take WWF using billionaire Ted and they just use it.
Oh.
I mean, it's also amazing that it's it's really amazing that I mean that that Turner allowed, yeah, them to kind of run rampant on a major program. Well, Turner was a maverick man. He got it.
He did he he loved Ric Flair, you know, it's like he loved babyfaces. He understood like that edge, that wrestling broad and that's what he would do. He would go in the press and call out somebody like that's so perfect because they had just done the billionaire Ted skits. In the spring of ninety six, we just started talking about him. We did the Royal Rumble. Yep, they'd just done those. And and then Hall comes right away and
Nash come right after him. Yeah, and it's like you could believe that these guys were over there helping the company that created these billionaire ted skits and then went over there and tried to you know, that's the new front in the battle right now, right And it was a shame for years because there was a lawsuit that they would downplay Bishoff in particular, would downplay the idea that these were supposed to be WWF invaders because it
was legally sensitive because there was a lawsuit over whether WCW was really practically using WWF's intellectual property to get an angle over by pretending this is Razor Ramone and Kevin Nash. And we know how ridiculous that got when they brought back Razor and Diesel and w I know, another piece of nineteen ninety six we've touched on recently, But so the Cable Ace Awards, Drew Carrey's there and the nWo, Hogan, holland Nash are doing segments with Kathy Kinney,
who was Mimi on the Drew Carry Show. Yeah, she's there too in character and just throughout the course of the awards. It's not like they're there just for, you know, to present an award. They do like an angle through the whole Cable Ace Awards where they're trying to get into the building and they're not supposed to the end. That's so crazy that the larger organization and cable television written large was taking notice of what the nWo angle was.
Not just that these guys were a stable of wrestlers and Hogan it's a bad guy. They got into like the idea that they were an invading force and built the Cable Ace Awards in some ways that year in nineteen ninety six around them. So here's a compendium of all the stuff that the nWo trio did in November nineteen ninety six ahead of World War Three on the Cable Ace Awards. Let this take you back.
Oh this is bad, I know, television outsider and we're on being at let us.
Set billionaire pet open up.
We know you're in there.
We got this a new world, or pumping out they do because we're new.
Or let us.
We're taking over the one and attainment orders because we get yours and we want our cable Ace award.
And what do we do?
What do we do?
I'll tell you what.
It's all round back by the stage door, talk a few people, get him out the way, then we'll get our hands on Ted Turner.
Hey, that's a perfect plan.
We are the hottest thing on cable and the cable Ace ghost.
To the world going forward with those accents, Why don't we wow Gerry Shanley two percent? No, no better yet? That nonother talk show? Who's that done? The don King died?
Larry King, Larry King, I'm taking him?
Then, let's do it. Come on, they're down GM, I'm up in this place, a.
New world Order in the he's ol.
Hey, well what we got a program here?
Hey, they're billionaire Ted right on.
The gallow Where's where's our picture?
Man?
Were in there?
And then we weren't invited.
We weren't invited. Who's in this thing?
Well?
Coming up, there's Mark Harmon, Eric will Sell, a couple of Woolsey, Doc.
Steve Webber, Jeffery Damn, who's that TAM's that ball guy?
And it was in some kind of whim Convention. We have Rita Wilson, sheryl A.
Leyla Shawn, many lead Thoms and Laylah or Sean whatever they're all. There's baby who ram I had, Walter crock Hey, I want to meet Walter cronk.
Water, but he could get away from me by doing Cable what four?
Oh yo yo yo, it's Hollywood's favorite damseling distressed much for me?
Me?
Hey, Sugar, Britzy's looking good?
Look sweet?
Oh no, don't tell me the w.
Is here to do some butt kicking you guys for the reason that I watched Cable. I even have an NW tattoo on.
Well when I get to.
Know you, wow.
School.
But how do we get in there?
Oh?
Well that's easy.
First you need one of one of these where we're gonna.
Pick one of those.
Hey, bridey, come here the slim.
Thanks, smooth, very very smooth, and next to any of these because you don't want to, you know, get any makeup on. And if anybody comes up to you and you know what here just pretends to speak English and you don't say slay.
Oh it's my bred band of LA.
I don't know George Hamilton tan Man, This surface to Sola, come on your birthday.
A little live like, Hey.
That was pretty fun.
This is the very end of the show. Andrew Carey is coming off stats.
Hey, porkmeister, these guys didn't get their awards yet.
What's up?
I'm I don't vote on any awards or anything.
William no billionaire, Ted says, you choose each and every single award or well, yeah, I know where he is if.
You want to go to his house right now.
I know that Todo was gating everything.
Thanks for watching the Cable Ace Awards tonight. That'sn't that fuck? Oh my god, I feel so I reach for the mood of the time. I want it so bad, just that that was just like, you know, so innocently, like presented in a way just I just love it. I just love going back and watching.
That kind I mean yeah, because it's I mean, and the fact that that that they were able to kind of cross into that world so easily, you know, that's immediate.
You know, it's like they just did the angle in July and by November. They would never put w CW wrestlers on the Cable Ace Awards before this, no way, of course, not no, never, Why such cool stuff happening. So yes, In fact, the giant had recently turned heel and joined the nWo. He was like the big fourth member and it was it was fascinating. There hasn't met a lot from Paul White over the years about this.
One thing he did say on the Monday Night Wars documentary is it seemed like that there was one or two options. Either he joined the nWo or he starts chopping down the nWo one by one on behalf of WCW. And he called it a political move really that caused him to join the nWo instead of WW because you know, the other scenario would be him, you know, forcing the nWo guys to lose, and they weren't there for that.
So as much as we can criticize it a Bischoff or whatever for leaning into an nWo concept that was kind of doomed to fail vsavwcw's viability, he also can't forget that the big money owners in the nWo had all the incentive in the world to make everything nWo and nothing WCW.
It was kind of real in that sense. It really was.
It was like, yeah, I believe that it didn't have a lot of the nWo guys didn't have a lot built up in how strong WCW was. They didn't really care because all they had to do was show up. And they're getting invited to Cable Ace Awards to show up on Nitro, you know, and kick some ass, right, you know, the traditional like okay, where's the heat and what are they going to get there? It's like we can we can worry about that later.
Right now.
All we do is show up and talk and look cool and beat some people up. And I mean you show up, you talk, and you get heat beating WWF, which you no one thought we'd be able to do six months ago. So it's it's something to remember as well. Giant had recently shown up in Jingle all the Way with Arnold.
Yes, yep, that that happened as well. I mean again, it would have happened, not necessarily right right there. I mean happened earlier as well.
You know, so he was also Hollywood adjacent. He's in Santa with Muscles as well. Right, No, it's in Sanda with Muscles. I'm thinking of, No, that's Jingle all the Way. I'm thinking of, yeah, yeah, Jingle all the Way where he comes in.
But yeah, like he yeah again that would have been done, is he? Like, can fine when I'm gonna take my notes here from when we did jingle? Sure, when they filmed the actual movie, you.
Know, of course he'd come in in ninety five and wrestled Hogan. I'll even happened and Hogan's andre right, and he was still red and yellow.
He's still gonna do the fucking same things all over again.
It already won the world title from Rick Flair in April of nineteen ninety six, so we'd already been a top guy when this happened. But yeah, he suddenly choked slams WCW guys one night on Nitro when the ring is absolutely filling up with garbage. This is before even Bishoff returns, and Bischoff delivered the no no no, no, no, no, no no no as Giant actually choke slams at WCW guy I think was barbarian instead of an nWo guy.
But you thought he was hitting the ring to save WCW from the nWo menace because they were making over again, and that was a big one. That was like, oh my god, like they're going to start picking off WCW guys too. It's not just x WWF guys we got.
To worry about. And so now why won't Sting join?
You know?
That was part of it. It's like Giant did it? Yeah, exactly.
So in this world where people are literally turning on WCW, not just joining NBO, turning on ww to join the nWo, now everyone's fair game and everyone's under suspicion. So he does that, and it sets up this convoluted scenario because of course, the winner of World War three is to get a world title shot. Giant wins haul Cogan is the champion. House is going to get worked out. So as the weeks go, Hogan kind of makes intimations that they really don't expect the Giant to go for the belt.
They expect them and him to just take one for the team, right, I remember that and just not actually challenge, And that pisses him off, and so he leaves the NABO as quickly as he joins it and wrestles Hogan and the January nine ninety seven sold out where he hits some of the choke slam and then Nick Patrick, who is already as you can see on this show as well, the evil what referee doing things that were
very questionable that favored the nWo. He would eventually become the NBO's official ref again towards this idea that we need a whole crew announcers, wrestlers to be nWo guys for an NWOTV shows. So dumb, just every time I say it, I can't believe they thought that that was the direction to go in. And I lived through it. I remember, I remember what I watched Nitro Ford.
It was not for that.
It was not for the nWo to become WCW. So Nick Patrick doesn't do the count that sold out, and then nWo hits the ring and attacks him. He chokes lams all of them, and then Hogan hits him of the guitar and no contest. Hogan retains the title. And it's after that the Bischoff does his big heel thing where he fires Randy Anderson on TV. And that's that as far as the set up here and the prelude
to Paul White winning the World War three. He also would go on to say that there was a moment where he kind of went to Bischoff and was concerned about how much less he was being paid than the other guys in the nWo and just didn't really like, this is the way Paul White is kind of characterized it. Just didn't really like the lack of urgency and trying to match what WWF might come up with for his services.
Definitely kind of felt slighted by that, and Bischoff would say it is and has said it, as you know, I said, absolutely the amount of money they're offering you, I'll fly you there go. You got to take that offer, whereas Paul White talks about it like they were just blowing him off and big leaguing him and perhaps not even believing that WWF would make that kind of a
play for him. But they had strengthened considerably in nineteen ninety eight and he comes in there in nineteen ninety nine, Does Paul White becomes the big show?
And that is the end of that.
They had signed Roddy Piper right before Halloween Havoc, Yeah d being he would to work four or five matches a year, fifteen interview appearances throughout the year, And there was also this idea of in the deal, which I don't think anything came of it, where Turner would be developing a syndicated TV show for Piper as part of the deal, much like Thundering Paradise. Yeah, much like Bolstering thunder and Paradise. It's part of Hulk Steel.
Yeah, he'd be a bounty bounty hunter or something. Was the idea of this TV show. That nothing ever happened.
A big money contract, and I'm sure part of the big money was whatever he would be paid from off WCW's books for the Turner television show. There's always that component to make that numbered flame. Remember Brett was gonna get movies. Remember that.
They got loads of dob Well, this is w'sw.
Contract and nothing happens, you know, but you just always hear that, like there's movies in the deal, and it's like nothing consummates. We've read Hogan's contract. It's all there for wrestling. It's there's nothing in there with movies. But I maybe it's probably separate paper. But yeah, Bischoff had just turned as well. This is a part of the stipulation of Fall Brown ninety six where w CW face the nWo and the War Games, was that they would
get an hour of Nitro. They had said that, and they didn't quite get around to doing it for until December of nineteen ninety seven, but that's fine. They were toying with it, and they had plans on doing it and accelerating in that direction. And Bischoff ends up playing a key role in the Piper thing because when Piper comes in, he's demanding audience with Hulk Hogan. He's demanding
a match with Hulkogan. And on the Nitro, I think it's November eighteenth, nineteen ninety six where Bischoff turns heel. It's in the ring with Piper in a segment not unlike what we see in the ring at World War Three, except by that point Bischoff is freshly in the nWo category. But you can see Bischoff is still kind of jittery about playing the heel, so you know it's he's kind of finding his voice here in this segment that took
place on Nitro. This is where the world came to realize that the WCW boss was in the nwo's pocket as well.
What airline?
Throw it airline. He's in his face about the contract terms, and you have.
To go on up to my ranch.
When you come up to my ranch, tell me is a road crooked or if the road straight, tell me it's a road crooked.
I don't remember.
I don't remember.
Your piece, I said, nor.
So Bishop still with w W at this point. Ye oh.
Now now that everybody realizes who everybody's working.
For, I mean, my god, this guy here was the foundation of the w c W. Now he works for the nWo.
I'll tell you what.
Stand him up, but watch him, watch him real close. Hey, you know something, Piper. You're a loser fighting a losing battle. You have never been anything in the wrestling business. And until you wrestled me, Piper, nobody even knew your name. Now, rowdy Roddy Piper is such a coward he won't even sign a contract to wrestle me. And since you won't get in the ring with me, Piper, you will never be anything. My man, I think it's time to teach you who will respect Piper?
Mm hm hm h.
H h h.
Listen to all those nWo as opposed to w c W fans. Yeah right, mm hmm deebs, Are we on?
Are we on?
Today? I think I don't even know if they're on the air or not. Did you see what I saw?
Was that?
Now they don't have Bischoff. Now they're like rudderless. They don't know what to do in the announcement, it's so good association. I'm gonna go crawl off.
Oh my god, I just throw up because remember bish Off was lead an answer for hour two of Nitro, so Shivanni is not even there.
He leaves after hour one. I just can't believe what I'm saying.
I can't eat this.
We gotta go, we gotta go.
We'll see everybody next Monday.
Sick ning.
It's a sick excell.
Did did.
Did little, did didn't North Virginia.
I'll have a contract in my cake, no surrender, no drat.
Hey, well they.
Slaps his ass, I kiss my ass. Oh man, that combination of like enthralling, that's they're ending with a hot angle and that you have to go to bed for school the next day.
Yeah. Music is triggering for me in that way. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's like you know, because you're also on a HT you know, it's not like they you know, back in the day, they kept they let you. They left your wanting more.
Imagine that, yeah, not wishing it not hard, not wishing it was over, which it tends to be more often than not. Now by the time you get to the end, the lapsed.
Fan wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need their candy, it's the Lapsed He's an lapsed fan wrestling podcast with Jack and Carnacio and JP Sorrow.
But my god, the Piper there obviously calling out Hogan for this very pay per view World War three and the contract signing, and he's ready to do the damn thing. Piper would do a lot of that at the end. He would like go longer than the TV times allow, and unfortunately he was able to get in the key points there at the very end.
But that's it.
That's Bishoff turning there on on WCW in the Whole Company, and you heard the discuss in Bobby Heenon and Mike Today's voice. He did an absolute MVP like, oh yeah, if we did an nWo journey, like Bobby Heenan be the hero because he's the guy that makes those Shawanni does a wonderful job as well at this. I mean, you know, of course, I'll Coogan can go to hell all those lines.
Yeah, but what's he doing Heenan because because this what what makes Heenan stand out in this situation is Heenan's a heel, he's a steal and he's against the and he's.
Been right all along about Huld Cogan, So it's like, you know, he's the heel that like everyone has to kind of shut up and listen to. Now, that was the greatest, greatest element that they did was to also make Heenan be against the LU because it added it added a whole different layer to it, because if Heenan's against the nWo, Holy YEA. Logically you would say Heenan would have to support the nWo because he's a heel, right, But thereafter his job, he's too good, he's too good
to to go that way. Because I'm sure he had quite a bit of leeway and what he said out there, I'm sure he's set the tone. I mean, I'm sure they didn't expressly tell him to support the nWo and he went against it. But at the same time, he gave texture to what it would sound like if he was against the nWo, and it was money from the beginning, so you would never second guess it.
And that was his instinct.
He was dead on. It's like I have to be I have to feel under siege. And Heenan's good at that, especially because he had that next surgery, and he was horrified of even being touched. And everybody knew that, at least in the inside of the business and the famous Brian Pilin thing in the clash where he drops the F bomb because Pillman goes into business himself and grabs Heenen's headset, and Heenan was very persnickety about his neck. I was really worried that it could reaggravate an injury.
And so there's that too, Like there's this frailty about Bobby Heenan that the nWo just absolutely could exploit, Like, you know, if they did rough him up, if they did smack his head. That's a serious situation for Bobby Heenan,
way more so than anybody else. They were attacking in a lot of ways, so you almost could you could believe the fear he had over and above just what's the right play here as an announcer to get this angle over r But for his personal safety, they would show up and just you wouldn't know where it was going.
You know.
It's not like these guys were included on very much. They didn't know who was going to win the pay per view matches and stuff. Shavanni's talked about this, so they don't know what Dannabal is going to do when they're out there and they're invading the announced desk. Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Heen and heen and heen and heen and heenan.
It's it's kind of a thing, you know when I when when I probably mentioned it when we were doing the ninety seven shows, but I I uh, I actually thought that that would that that would be what made the Heart Foundation in ninety seven be like the nw ROW because I thought there was no way once they started, once they turned Brett hard heel, there's no way Jerry Lawler can be a fan right the history they have him insulting the family, like he would have to turn it,
like Lawler would have to be against the Heart Foundation. He didn't. It kind of wasn't. I was going to say, no, he didn't, he didn't. It was what I thought they would they would do, but they didn't do it. I was kind of bummed. I was really bummed about that. I thought I thought that would have been a great
another added element. I mean, I know probably now they didn't want to like copy the nWo too much, you know, because it's always funny how everyone equates d X as being the nWo kind of mirror the W's because it was that was never it for me. I mean, it became it eventually, but in reality, for me, it was the Heart Foundation. The Heart Foundation was that they were the nWo for me in every stable that I formed in the business after the WO was compared TOWO. So yeah,
I remember people talk about that ANNWO ripoff. Yeah, but like the Hart Foundation symbolized the major baby face turning the heel and forming and bringing together his family, and that's what I always thought was kind of what made it different, what made it more nWo like then, say the Nation Domination, where that was just a bunch of guys coming in.
Can I revisit Can I revisit something we talked about a little earlier. It just occurred to me, you know, the night after WrestleMania fourteen, when Steve Austin finally wins the championship. We know at the tail end of that, dude Love comes out like a maniac in attacks Austin. Thus Austin's first Programs champion is set in stone against me. Fully, I do invite you to consider a world where instead of dude Love attacking Steve Austin on that raw, it's macho man, Randy Savage.
Oh fucking me, I've been amazing. That would have been amazing if they fu uh just punching him in the head like a madman on the table, yeah, and drop on the elbow and it was like, you know, like like he doesn't he just comes out of no well way, he comes out of the crowd and he starts fucking wailing on him. That would have been amazing.
Oh what a time to be a wrestling fan when like you could dream up things like that and it might happen.
Right, because it could happen. I mean they would, they would kind of tease shit like that.
You know.
We talked to you know, fucking XPOC coming out the night after wrestling Hea fourteen and saying that Hall and Nash would be here if they weren't locked up in their contract. It's like, oh, yeah, you actually thought that was just a pretty a prelude to them coming. I thought by the summertime they were going to be in the company. Uh, those were those were the days. No question.
They made a note in The Observer that the only hint of a turn that Bischoff had before doing that, and that Nitro was Mike Today the first hour, asking Bischoff why would he ever make a deal before wargames to give the nWo their own TV show if they won, Like to your point earlier, like you're the president, Like why would you even make that offer? And now it
became clear why? Yeah, And Meltzer notes the angle came off good on television and probably could be used to answer lots of questions about why nWo was able to do whatever it wanted, but also makes no sense and that the entire idea of the feud was because of Bischoff's remarks, and it was Bischoff who was attacked to start the feud. Of course, they could say that was all the work, right, They didn't. They didn't talk about that.
They never talked about like, well, were you in on it when Kevin Nash powerbombed you with Great American bash? You know, were you already nWo for life?
Then?
I feel like didn't we kind of maybe maybe this was our hypothesis that it was that that that that he wasn't nWo at that time, but he was nWo after that, and Mike was like, you know what, I got to join up with these guys. They're fucking you know, they're too much.
Now I think that's probably it. But they didn't make that abundantly clear and a memorable promo like you would expect. There wasn't like one of those unless I'm forgetting it, and I don't think I am. There wasn't one of those like why Eric, why moments. He just kept coming out with them and holding the mic for Hogan, you know, and making the face and everything. But there was never like an explanation as there's a lot of holes in
it because he still has to be the president. We're going to talk here about how you talk about Hogan having like this awkward position of going on QVC and Entertainment tonight and Regis and Kaffe as a heel. Bischoff is the fucking real legit president WCW, budget authority, corporate officer at Turner Broadcasting, and now he's got to go out into the world after having just you know, said WCW sucks death to WCW on Monday Night and now
cut deals as the WCW head man. You wouldn't think it would be that big of a deal, but it did put people like Harvey Schiller in an awkward position, as he talks about here from Controversy creates cash. I think we're going to hand this over to the boss Man for a little bit of reading from Eric's book, which always makes for fascinating compare in contrast to what he says now about the same events on his podcast.
So here we go. Finding my inner thrill a gradual thing. Often in life, there aren't really clear defining moments or transitions. A lot of times, concepts are the amalgamation of days or weeks or months of conversation and collaboration. It's always difficult for me to look back and pinput exactly where or how a certain storyline or angle was born. They
have all over time. You'll be at a meeting and someone will throw out the kernel of an idea, and someone else throws out something that changes the idea, which is how I, or rather my on screen character, joined the New World Order. I can be dishonest about it and blow smoke up my ass like so many other people do, and make up a story, but the truth is,
I don't remember where the decision was. That's not so fucking that's so fucking bus He doesn't stopped using I don't remember where the decision was made or how it came about. And you know, I don't doubt him, but I also always have to wonder he might know exactly where it came from. It doesn't want to give that person credit. We always have to consider that possibility too, as to when he has these memory holes. You know, maybe Kevin Sullivan came up with it and he didn't
like him. You know, I was gonna say, and doesn't want to give someone credit, right, or it doesn't doesn't want to have give them credit, but it also doesn't want to have a battle when they if they if they, you know, backlash waiter. That's my idea.
I think have Biscotti something that I understand when he says he doesn't remember some storyline six matches down, you know, but it's his heel turn, and he doesn't remember who put that on the table, his own heel turn.
I don't. I don't remember, and I didn't I don't know that The second half is the truth. Yeah, right, Uh. We were looking for a plot twist, something that would shock the so you do remember you're looking for a plot because don't remember whether it is in a game. Well, you're looking for a plot twist. That's you. That's a nice who, something that would shock the audience a little bit.
Up until that point the camera. Up until that point on camera, my character represented the traditional pro wcw faction. I was AGAs at the nWo invasion and everything the outsiders did and represented. I was trying to fight them off. When I revealed myself to be part of the nWo in November nineteen ninety six, the thinking was that this nWo cancer had gotten so deep inside the executive structure
that they'd finally gotten to me. As the head of WCW, I was the ultimate turncoat, the boss who turned out to be part of the evil invasion. In some ways, though it was a very natural move for the character, the audience didn't like me that much anyway. I was the outsider, the guy who hadn't paid his dues. The decisions I made in power were counterintuitive and against conventional wisdom, so the fans who claimed to be insiders are purest despised me. I embraced that, turned up the volume on it,
and made it work for us. I found my inner heel. I knew people would say things like, oh, Bischoff just wants to be in the limelight and part of something successful. I it's kind of funny that I never thought that about Bischoff. Maybe I was the only maybe I was naive about it, but I never thought that, you know, like the whole Ken Doll wanta be thing like, Yeah, I just didn't see him as being this kind of
guy who needed the attention. Yeah, well up until this I mean like back and I'm talking about when he first came to the company and up until this point. Yeah, well it's.
It's kind of curious that he even put himself in the announced position on Nitro in the first place. You know, I think it kind of goes back to that, like why do you have to be the lead voice? You know, like, no, to me, he was the lead. Why does Vince sig Man against it? But he would he would want to be on TV when Vince was on TV. That was a big thing for him to be able to say what he needed to say to counteract what was going on on television, but on the WWF TV if that
became necessary. But I think that's maybe where it started people saying like he's just thrusting himself into the into the forefront. Not against it, not say it's a bad idea. I'm just trying to figure out why people would say that about him before he turned heel.
It was he didn't do commentary beforehand, and he was like, he wasn't on TV before here he was, I know, but he was.
He was much more running the show behind the scenes than he was. He wasn't first string, It wasn't on pay per views for example, as a lead commentator. And then they do Nitro and he's right there in the center of the desk. It seemed like abrupt. It seemed abrupt that he would be now the lead voice of the whole company as the boss, right, I mean Rob.
Bartlett wasn't you know, you know when they put him fucking front, Steve mcmongo, Steve mcmongoe, Steve m Bartlett for sure, those early Nitro days. Oh absolutely absolutely was.
But yeah, he's saying, you know, because it's true, like he's the nWo absolutely catches fire and like he's got to join him. Really You're like why, yeah, yeah, I mean because it'll annoy people. You know, Yeah, that's Bishop.
I knew there'd be personal attacks and barbs from the from the dirt sheet writers and read and never pays attention to. He brought him up three times and one paragraph who were quite frankly jealous. I didn't care, because to me, it just made sense. My career was going, was going. I wasn't going to be defined by my character but by how the company, but by how the company did so I had nothing to lose, and every
the game. You can't have babyfaces without people. The fans really hate, and they hated me blowing the line I was in fairly. I was in a fairly unique position for a character in pro wrestling or any entertainment medium. Frankly, I was Eric Bischoff, the president of a high profile division of Turner Broadcasting and the executive producer of one of the most successful shows on cable television, playing Eric Bischoff, the evil, self serving bastard. I was running the real
company and the fictional one. It was confusing for people. It was certainly confusing for the limited intellectual bandwidth of the dirt sheet community. It brought them up, but it was again again, But it was equally confusing for people who thought they knew what was going on and in wrestling, but weren't quite sure. That included a lot of executives at Time Warner. There were definitely people walking around who thought an absolute lunatic was running the company. They couldn't
distinguished between reality and the fiction we had created. It can still be a problem these days when I deal with entertainment executives on non wrestling projects, but I've learned to accept it and sometimes use it to my advantage. Even in business. When I sense that I may be in the room with someone who may be confusing the character Eric Bischoff with the person Eric Bischoff, I point out in a fun way that there's a big difference between the guy on television.
And the guy in the wa I wish whatever someone called me out in a professional setting for bullshit, I could just say that was my character.
Right, Well, confusing, that's that's the character on television. This is I'm the guy in the room. Different.
Me is the one that has never offended you, and we'll always do what you want. Yeah, right, So so pick and choose the things that I that didn't offend you, that me right, No, No, that didn't offend me. The things that are real, the things that offended you.
That's that's the character. That's what I am on A nice option to have huh until I leave the house? Brother? What that really?
That really started freaking him out when they started doing zoom because he couldn't you, brother, I'm in the house, Like, but I want to be hul hoging, but I'm in the house.
Well, I don't want to be hul Hogan. I'm the house, but you need me to be hul Hogan. Well, I'm in my house. Brother, This just can't happen. Dude, Dude, I can't zoom. Dude, he has to zoom outdoors so that so we can he can keep the delineation clear. Mad him on his front, stupid. He kind of fucking sneaks out, like making sure no one's there, so does not that fucking hulk up for everybody else. Like you know, anytime Rick Flair got in trouble with the ladies, that
was Ric Flair, that was not Richard Fleer. That's right, no one's actually seen Richard Flair. We were joking about that too.
It's like how many documentaries there had to be at least six of them that that hinged on. I don't even think Rick Flair knows who Richard Fleeer is such a tired concept, you know. How about that the same person?
You know?
How about that?
How about everything Rick Flair is guilty of? Richard Fleer is too?
How about Richard Fleer is dead? How about it's just talk about it exactly? How about your fucking shut up?
You get Sean Michaels like sitting at a bar on like ESPN thirty for thirty. I don't think Richard. I don't think Rick even knows where Richard Fleer begins. And Rick clare I'd like to meet, I like to meet.
Oh he said that, he said that, Oh god stop, please stop. Such an idiot. Sewn Michaels, this guy whose own family calls him Sewan even though it's not his birth name. Yeah right, yeah, Michael, what's up? Mike hick and Bottom. You see, I understand what's happening here. You're not able.
You're not distinguishing the character from the real Eric Bischoff, and I.
Get Look, I get it. He's in a leather jacket, you know, and I get it. Yeah. Hey, the conference table water water picture on it. Oh god, oh, oh fucking leather. He's you know, he's standing up at the head of the table. I get it, I get it, But we have an opportunity confusing. What you're doing is you're confusing the Eric Bischoff on Television's the Eric Bischoff in the Yeah, I guess that's what I'm doing. Can we just figure out who you are and get on
with it, please, I got six more meetings today. Just fucking tell me which one you are and I'll believe it. Exactly. Let's get past this point. Can we just agree which one I'm talking to? No, not really because I have to, I don't. I don't really care which one I'm talking to. I just want to fucking talk to him and get the fuck out of here. My daughter is a graduation party, you know. Oh does your daughter have a graduation party? Or does your daughter's character have a graduation.
Yeah?
I'm out of here, Thank you very much. This has been a great fucking meeting.
FU meaning one of those dict Cheatham types is like people who are forced to deal with ww TRU exactly.
Yeah, I'm done here.
Wow.
Whatever it is, just the toy Bis deal is going to be massive yeah, right, we are in control. Fish off tremendous with the black hair Jet black.
Oh for sure, that's just in big fucking shitty grin. So we finished that.
That's it right, Yeah, there's a big difference between the guy and television and the guy in the room. So Nitro is riding high man twenty three weeks running. Let's see, they replayed the Hogan Piper World War three angle the next night on Nitro and almost its entirety interestingly enough, really, and that did the peak number in the second hour, four point zero for a tape that used to really work for them at WCW. Remember the showing the Goldberg
DDP holloween havoc match that everyone lost out on. Yep, not everyone, but that was the last time they ever won the Monday Night Wars. It's a fucking tape of the main event of a pay per view airing. They should have just done that. Wow, I'd hurt their pay per view bys But man, that was always great when people could get a full kind of unadulterated glimpse at what happened on the pay per view. They would watch that shit, they would soak that up. So the way
it was going at the time. Let's see Ra's numbers, Meltzer reported continued to be disappointing since the show featured Brett Hart's first television match against Owen. That's after, of course, he announced he was staying. All right, all right, yeah, all right, that's a live interview with Michael's head to headquarter. Nitro open two point five to two point one edge, but increased its lead to three point Oher to one point nine Nitro three point zero Raw one point nine
during a Bischoff interview angle. The gap narrowed after that, but Nitro never had less than a point five lead.
Again.
This is the night after World War Three. Nitro's peak in the second hour was four point zero for the tape of the Piper Hogan angle from the pay per view the night before, and the Mysterio Junior Varsity Coosis match, dropping to a three point four for Jeff Jarrett versus Alex Right and minging the Barbarian versus Harlem heat and the ending angle. And I think that's the Nitro hour unopposed, I think at that time, because Rob wasn't two hours
yet that started until the night Sid won the belt. Right, that was the first two hour raw.
Yeah. Yeah, and then replay of Nitro even would do good numbers. That was cool.
Bischoff always talks about that, like they would they would wrap TV and they'd go to the bar at the hotel and they'd watch the replay and like kind of you know, game plan, like a tape review.
Yeah. I thought that that.
I can picture all the guys being in a bar. They have it to themselves. It's a Monday night at like, you know, eleven thirty, so it's not like anyone's around and everyone's watching their shit back and making comments and oh that actually got over, and everyone's eating and drinking. I like to picture that. It was simply that the
Nabour of Nitro be the first hour. Okay, yeah, this is what's going on in the newsletters at the time around the idea of the nwo's own television show or their own hour of Nitro.
Yeah, go ahead, I want to hear what peop want to say.
It was simply that this is reporting on it. It was simply that the nWo hour of Nitro will be the first hour. Because the theory at WCW, and we'll certainly find out if it's correct, is that people watch the shows now mainly for nWo. Judging from the reaction of the arenas, I'd guess it's a logical assumption. So they wanted to put nWo head to head with RAW, and Eric Bischoff wants to be on the air at the same time as Vince McMahon. It's that simple and
there's nothing more to it than that. So in the nWo hour starts, which should be in a week or two, which did end up happening, Bischoff and Larry's Obisco will do that hour and the second hour will be Tony Shavanni who walked off the first hour this week after
an argument with Zibisco, Bobby Heenen and Mike today. So they're saying that the head to head hour, which is nine to ten, because they were on an hour after Raw was during nine to ten they wanted to have Bishoff on the air, and so that's the because WWF's on, and so that's the reason the nWo would have gotten hour one instead of hour two. I think great stuff didn't happen. Wonder why, I know why, because this is a stupid idea. Yeah, I mean, it's not a company,
it's a fucking it's a stable. How hard is that they want their own television show? They just want to fuck with people? Why do they want their own television show? This didn't make any sense.
It makes no sense, and it starts.
This is the beginning of basically a year of this shit. Like his nWo show going to start soon. It just would go on week after week. The date would be pushed out. This reads the word we got this isn't. The observer was the nWo R of Nitro would start on December second. However, on the November twenty fifth show, there was no mention of that happening next week. The last word was that Dbias and Bischoff would announce the first hour. And this is of course the plans that
fell to the wayside. Bishoff on his podcast, talking about how Ted DIBIASI just was not comfortable in the role of nWo color commentator, Bishoff remembers DBAs as being awkward as part of the nWo. Originally, Bischoffs had his intent in bringing him in was to do color commentary, and he felt that Debisi was kind of so so in that role, and then he thought he'd be part of the nWo, So it was not that day one Dbisi would be nWo, but that.
He'd be color.
And he said, yeah, he hate a great voice and a great look and all the credibility in the world. And he could have been the mouthpiece because he could cut great promos. So they figured he could be a WO mouthpiece, but it just wasn't something he was comfortable doing. So I guess to be the mouthpiece of the nWo just wasn't a role. Debis had just found God and all that too.
There was that I.
Remember, right, it came out about you know, Jesus saving his life and all that shit. So so maybe that that played into it too, So it didn't end up happening. But that's kind of the the lot the dynam dynamism of what's happening at the time in WCW around World War Three. Here's Bishoff on his podcast talking a bit more about it.
Well, I mean there was a dual purpose. I think my role in the nWo, at least on paper, and I think, you know, trying to be as subjective as I can or objective as I can. I think I did a pretty decent job and it was a necessary role. nWo needed their version of Gene Oakland, which is really all I was. But I was the president of the company. The underlying storyline is the outsiders nWo were coming in
to take over WCW. What better way to take over WCW than to, you know, have the owner or excuse me, the president of the company betray the very company he's president of inside with nWo. So I think from a storytelling point of view, it made sense. From a functional point of view, nWo needed their gene Oakland, and that's really what my role was. And I think moving me away from commentary, the only way that that role would have been effective would be for me to leave commentary.
The other part of the and I'll be honest about it, is, you know, doing commentary while.
Yeah, was tough.
Yeah, there was a lot of other things going on that needed my attention.
So it was.
It was kind of a necessary move in some respect.
Yeah.
So he also kind of says that he was getting tired of, you know, announcing on Nitro while backstage a million things are happening that kind of require his sign which I can see is it got live and more dynamic and live every week, and all the things that happened with Nitro is they did all kinds of experimental stuff and risky stuff. One thing that doesn't get talked about a lot in this context at this time period
is that Gene Okerland's WCW contract had come due. He had made his last appearance in I think November of ninety six. Obviously he's on this pay per view, but that was kind of like a return. He had been kind of in contractual limbo for a little while in late ninety six. It wasn't clear if he was going
to resign with WCW. So my kind of theory is that what happened is they're all sitting around trying to figure out what they could do if Gene Okerland leaves WCW, and they start talking about, well, maybe Bischoff could be the stick man, be the Oakreland. Not for the nWo, but just you know, he'd have to be the Oakreland of WCW because Oakland was going to be gone, right, So it wasn't just a question and he'd done that job, you know, he had done the Genie Oakerland backstage interviewer
job before at WCW. And then I bet what happens is not I bet, but I can imagine what happens is as time goes and it becomes clear that Jean's sticking around, someone says, what about if you were the nwo's guy that did this, and it goes from there, but no one seems to mention that, you know, gene Oakerland When Eric Bischoff says he was going to be the NWOS Gen Oakland, that at the time they would have been discussing this, Gene Oakland would have his status
would have been up in the air anyway. Yeah, so that's going to be part of it. And another part of dealing with the heal, Eric Bischoff, is that it kind of makes the WCW higher brass. I'm talking about the Turner executives looked like morons because if yeah, right, if like you just said, the guy who runs ww turns on the group, shouldn't you fire him immediately?
Yes?
Why would he be allowed to continue as WCW president if he did this? It kind of boxes in a Harvey Schiller in his Whole Division here, Beschoff talks a little bit about that dynamic.
It did create some.
I don't want to say chaos, but there were different opinions of it. You know, I think there were Internally it was like, Eric, are you going a little too far with this?
No?
I mean, really, you are the president of the company. Do you think it makes sense for you to take on this particular role? Might be a little too much. There was a lot of that. Harvey Shuler was a little concerned about that because I was literally the guy, you know, when we weren't doing nitro, right, we weren't at a pay per view.
I was.
I was the guy out an airplane meeting with advertising executives, or a meeting with potential sponsors, meeting with the head of EA Sports, for example, and walked away with a ten million dollars check hand when I did. But it's a little challenging to play a character like I was playing and then put on a different hat and go out and conduct business in the real world without creating a little bit of confusion. So there was some concern, but it was worth the risk to me. Really didn't
understand wrestling. You've got to remember that there were a lot of people, including you talk about people in a North Tower that were concerned.
You know.
I would go back to the scene where I fired Randy Anderson in front of his wife and kids, and I looked down at his kids and tell your daddy, he still fired. You know, I actually got a phone call from Harvey, who was concerned because he thought, or people in a North Tower thought that I actually really
did fire Randy Anderson on national television. I thought it was going to be a pr human resource nightmare because even people within Turner became confused as to whether or not I was really the president of the company acting in such a way, or if I was the president of the company playing a character. So you can I have to assume that if people with in Turner Broadcasting were confused, people probably outside of the company might be too. And that was Harvey's concern. But again, Harvey was a
great dude man. He was a good leader. He expressed his concern. He wanted to make sure that I knew what I was doing and that I was prepared for the fallout if there was any. He laid out his concerns, I laid out my position, and I carried on Harvin's That's right. I mean, let's be clear about that.
Harvin.
Remember Harvey Schiller, he would actually kind of do what we were just suggesting and come on television. First, they did JJ Dillon. He was like the commissioner who'd come out as the guy above Eric's head and funck with him but not fire him, kind of like resolved to torture him instead of fire him, and they had Schiller
himself come out. He was later replaced by Brad Siegel, of course, and that's when a lot of things change to WCW and kind of tongue lash Eric Bischoff as well as for Tony Shavanni.
He loved this angle. Do you know why what I'm on? Nitro?
Oh?
Right about that?
Right now Eric is no longer in the announced position, and we go on to think if Tony Shavanni as the indelible voice of Nitro, And that wasn't the case for the first year of the program. He was just the second hour announcer, and now the whole show is his, even when it expands to three hours. So that was that was a plus for him, as he's talked about on his podcast, and he thinks eventually, actually a bit of overexposure hurt him too much, because it hurt him
a bit because he was doing too much. But yeah, that's that's that's a Shavanni's perspective on it. Let's also remember well, I should also note I should say that Bischoff said on a podcast with Conrad that this was this heel turn was planned two months out. So yeah, that puts me pretty much right where they were worried about Gene Okerland in his status and whether he wou returned.
So he's out there doing interviews now. And not only is Hulk Hogan out there trying to figure out how to navigate the public as a heel, Bischoff's got to worry about that too. And here's an article that I'd like you to share with the Solar System Boss where Eric Bischoff kind of tries to wear a new skin in doing a media interview. This is from the posting courier, Oh Boy, Mike mooneyham over in Charleston, South Carolina.
This is from November twenty fourth, nineteen ninety six. So I believe World War three day. Indeed, here he is as a heel doing a press interview. WCW Executive vice president Eric Bischoff took the NW angle one step further Monday night in Florence. Bischoff's done the Monday nitro audience by joining forces with the Hulk Hogan in the New World Order. The move sets up the nwo's upcoming quote takeover unquote of Nitro's First Hour, which will feature Bischoff
and Teddy Biassi in the heel announcing roles. Ww's philosophy of rapid fire hotshot angles, however, has produced a dilemma with his latest development. How will Bischoff, long acknowledged on areas WW Boss, ever regain his credibility as a legitimate executive. Why isn't he fired by WCW owner Ted Turner. Those these and other important questions may never be answered as WCW continues to look for short term ratings victories over
the World Wrestling Entertainment. But make no mistake about it, Bischof's main real life rival is WW owner Vince McMahon. W CW, behind the expanded two hour Nitro show in the successful NW angle has thumped the WWE twenty three straight weeks in the Monday Night ratings war. The credit, in large part goes to Bischoff for his aggressive style and risky but successful initiative to go head to head
with the once dominant WWE. Ironically, Bischoff once interviewed for a job with the WWE, but McMahon maintains that he never even remembers Bischoff. I really don't know him, McMahon said. I'm told I met him when he came up here for an audition as an announcer. I don't even remember that Bischoff. However, an interview earlier this year often offered a different account of that meeting in June of nineteen ninety. I was down there for an interview and audition and
talked to Vince for probably half an hour. If he doesn't remember it, perhaps he was engaged in some of his admitted chemical activity during that time.
But I was there.
He was there. What is clear is that McMahon didn't know Bischoff, then he certainly does now. Bischoff, key behind key talent hirings and innovative measures, has been the driving force behind ww's phenomenal success during the past year. The forty one year old Eric Bischoff is candid to the point of being brutally frank when discussing the opposition the nonsense of perception of reality that Vince mcman, a guy who has admitted using steroids to try to beef up
what was otherwise a scrawny, frail little individual. I think when he wakes up in the morning, he looks in the mirror and sees that eighty pound bird face punk that nobody wanted to play with, and he has to deal with that every day. And the way he's trying to deal with it with is trying to create this perception. And I just hope people are smart enough to see through this nonsense and deal with Rich War. This was war Bischoff's views on the other assorted issues and personalities.
Bischof's future in the business. I'm pretty happy where I am. One of the neat things about w W is that I can stay here and grow this business in ways that no one is even thinking about. I've gotten offers to do other things for more money, but it's not the money they keep that's keeping me here. It's a love for what I do, and also the people I work with. Paul Orendorf, Kevin Sullivan, Jimmy Hart, and Arn
Anderson stand out in my mind a lot. The booking is one thing, but the thing that I've grown so attached to is the people in the office. Craig Leathers David Crockett, Tony Shavani. There are people there there who have been there since nineteen eighty nine, have suffered through the reigns of Bill Wats, Jim Hurd, keep Fry, and Dusty Rhodes and others. Bishop's vision for the future. I don't have a wrestling background. I understand wrestling. It's not
rocket science, despite what people think. But I've always looked at wrestling as one of the purest forms of entertainment on the planet. I've always looked at wrestling as just the tip of the iceberg. WCW is not a wrestling company, Oh god, Oh my god. Our mission statement says that we aren't action based, oh character driven entertainment company. Fucking hell, and that means a whole lot more than a whole
lot less than wrestling. Yeah right, I know Vin snick Mahn talks about them being an entertainment company, but we're actually executing my vision. Bishop's response to critics who claims he's using ww as a springboard for more lucrat positions. When people say I'm just using wrestling to get somewhere else in turner, that's bullshit. There's nothing else I'd rather
there's nowhere else I'd rather be. I have more freedom of WW than probably one percent of the people at my level of turn want to work somewhere else in Turner, I'm not working somewhere else than Turner, and I wouldn't want to work somewhere else other than the Turner. The competition between WW and WWE. I love competition. I like
having someone to fight with. This would be a really boring situation if it were not for the opportunity to beat the incumbent, to prove to the world that this guy everybody thinks is a genius is basically an insecure person who was in the right place at the right time and quite frankly, took some very big risks and were good risks. But he's not the genius people think he is. I love it.
I love it so much. I mean gloves off, and Vince was not ready for that. Vince was not accustomed to being called out as the owner like that. I mean, not newspapers.
You know, I believe that, you know, we as a as a as an entertainment organization, have the obligation to
do just that. Entertainment and the personal attacks of one Eric Bischoff I don't know what his beef is, but I can tell you right now that as an individual who has prospered in the field of entertainment and on a global level with global ramifications, that I do believe that with global ramifications, that we will continue to strive to do exactly what we do best, which has put smiles on faces in and around the world great response.
Talk about a clap back, I mean, that's basically like Eminem's closing wrap in eight mile. That's how much of a a mic drop that was global impact wherever you said global consequence. But at the end of the day, we can thank Bischoff for forcing WW to change and you know, laying that groundwork for the heel Vince.
Again, we didn't know, None of us knew that the end of you Want a storyline was going to become. When it became, we thought it was a pretty cool idea. We thought it would last six months or so, three four, five, six months. We thought it was a hot angle. Obviously, Hogan turning was a big deal, but none of us saw it coming. And then as it got bigger and bigger and bigger and more and more powerful, more successful
crowds were going up. Television ratings were going up, pay per view by rates were going up, merchandise was flying off the shelves.
It was like, whoa wait a minute. We didn't see this coming. How do we keep it going?
How do we continue to build this? So I would say to answer your questions succinctly as I can, probably about two months it would be my guests, because we did have to plan. We did have to think about, Okay, if I do this, what happens next? How do we handle broadcast? How do we handle certain things? What's the role really going to be? David McClay says, why is it that nobody really talks about how you came up with the heel real life boss persona a year before Vincement ran?
Oh, I don't know.
You know, revisionist history, you know, bullshit, dirt sheet, narrative, biased coverage, all kinds of reasons.
But it really doesn't matter.
You know.
It used to bug me a little bit, but I'm over it.
It's just another example of the things that WCW did first and did better. Then eventually the wwe had to follow our pattern.
You know.
Somebody asked me recently, very recently, what am I most proud of. And that's a hard question with regard to my career in wrestling, and particularly during the Monday night work. And there's a lot of things, some of them really little, some of them probably don't mean anything to anybody but me, and some of them very big. But at the core of it, I would say it's because I forced WWE and Vince McMahon to change the way they did business.
And anybody that knows Vince McMahon or worked for Vince McMahon knows that that's not an easy thing to accomplish. And not only did I get vincemicmahon to sell and to react when everybody told me for so long, you know, Vinch will never sell anything. He'll never acknowledge the competition. It's not the way Vince McMahon does business. Well, it wasn't the way Vince McMahon did business until I forced
him to change. And I'm proud of that because it made WWE a better place, a stronger company, a more successful product in the audience benefit as a result. That's why you saw vincmacman become the evil boss that I had done a year sooner. That's why you saw the DX in the Attitude era, which was nothing more than a derivative, and I'm being behind of the nWo and it was nothing.
I mean, look at he forced him to go live each and every week.
All of those things were things that I did and I was solely, in many respects responsible for. And it's not because on a personal level, I was proud that I've forced Vincent Man to react to me. I'm proud because I forced them to react to me, and it improved the industry. That's what I'm proud of. It made it a better product. It made wrestling during the Monday Night War era probably still today the most talked about
thing in the wrestling industry on an ongoing basis. It's the reason why there are there's an nWo merchandise out there that is some of the top selling merchandise in the wrestling industry today twenty five years after the fact.
All of that was because.
Nitro changed the industry and forced the WWE to change their approach, and I think everybody benefited benefited from It's not an ego thing. The industry is a better place as a result of it, and I'm very proud of that.
Certainly, the hell off was some of the groundwork for Vince. The Vince thing is weird because he was the He was the actual final boss, you know what I mean, you didn't have anybody above him.
Who wha whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
You can create this kind of you can believe more when Vince went nuts trying to stop Steve Austin, but he didn't. It's not like one night Vince like kicked the top, baby face and the balls and joined a heal stable.
Well.
Also, I mean there is a difference, Like I think people people have always wanted to hate Vince nick Mann, you know, I think that's especially in the in the in the in the nineties. Throughout the nineties, people really really wanted to hate Vince pick Mahn. So it's a little bit not sure they had hatred for Bishoff. You know, he talks about the dirt sheets and stuff. Right, Well, I don't think he had enough. I mean, yeah, dirt sheets might have had, but but fans didn't. Fans I
don't think cared nearly as much anything to him. You know, he was just like right right, Carnival Barker guy on Nitro, Yeah, yeah, he's not like he could be annoying, but he wasn't. I think people had some deep issues with Vince McMahon. Yeah, that helped make that be a much bigger deal than Bischoff turning joining with the NW. I do wonder two because when Vince joined, when Vince turned on on Austin and became a heel, they had already done, you know,
a year plus worth of television. That made it abundantly clear to the people watching that the announcer, Vince McMahon was the actual boss and owner of the company. Right.
I do wonder if the average WCW fan that was watching that Nitro even knew that Bischoff was more than just the ww announcer and that he was the owner.
And well I knew because his his name came up with the Crows what it was. Yeah, I knew there was that there was more to meets the eye with him. When because I remember seeing you know, executive producer Eric It's interesting, or executive vice president of whatever it was, what the fright you was the executive.
Of That's that's that's a good point. I never thought about that. I just never watched the credits back then. But or paid punch attention. Well I needed to. I needed to to get the whole thing on tape.
Oh so you're sitting there waiting to press stop. That's huge too. You just time that.
You had to time that perfectly, Like if you got a second of the next thing, it was a failure.
Oh, I'd be fucking miserable, Like, oh, you.
Wanted to start on black screen and end on black screen? Yep, so that so that the next show could like just pick up. And it was like, see, God, never was the case.
Never was.
I never stopped trying. I tried to the day I fucking stopped the truth.
Yea.
So as far as like you know, the kind of business transformation is talking about it, it was a real thing, of course. WW year over year stats we have here when from an estimated average attendants in November of nineteen ninety five of two thousand and seven fifty by November ninety six, thirty six, a forty six point eight percent increase year over year in their live attendance, to say nothing of the gate, which was up one hundred and ten percent from an average gate of twenty four thousand
bucks in November ninety five to fifty thousand bucks. In November of ninety six, house shows sold out one from zero to twenty percent, and the cable television rating bumped up ten percent, not as much as you might think November ninety five two point zero November ninety six two point two, but still going in decidedly one direction.
The pay per view haul also up.
The nineteen ninety five World War three did a one point one to one million dollars in overall revenue. The nineteen ninety six World War three did one point three seven million dollars in overall revenue, with a point five to five by rate in ninety six compared to a point four to three in nineteen ninety five, So we're looking at twenty thirty percent increases year over year. Ww begins to climb. WWF is also improving in ninety six. Big and important to remember, of course, ninety five was
the absolute doldrums for them. Doesn't get much worse than ninety five, so to say that numbers were up in ninety six isn't saying all that much. But it's looking
pretty good. The TV ratings, though, we're we're kind of getting hit from ninety five to ninety six, as they went from an average cable rating in November of ninety five of one point seven between average cable rating and November tow eighty six of one point three, which is Meltzer notes at a twenty three percent decrease is an all time low monthly average for the promotion cable, So they are definitely feeling it. It's not like both ships are going up and nitros going up a little more.
It's that WWW's going way up in WWF's going way down in rating, So there's no no games you can play to try to pretend that that's not the case. But some REVERER series was up for them year over year as well, so bright spots. I guess on both sides of the ledger. As form World War Three, it goes from and its short existence, a one point one one million dollar haul to a one point three million dollar hall. By nineteen ninety seven it's one point eight
four million dollars. The wiring continues to climb and by ninety eight, the final World War three, which was the cold revenue year for WCW two point eight million dollars, no ship making one point one million. On World War Three, the first one to two point eight in just four years.
Well, it's it's the only one. It never went never went down. That's amazing. We mentioned Sting. He was in a weird place too, mentioned Gene Oakland. One of the reasons the Observer reports that this whole angle with the Sting is going on where he's showing up mysteriously in the white paint is because apparently Sting had a specified amount of dates that were max in his contract, and ww ON had a few dates left and they needed him for some major house shows, so they had to
get him off of television. So you know, necessity is the mother of invention. Yeah, I don't remember who suggested it.
Yeah, you don't remember who suggested it, because the whole reason you did it was because you fucking maxed out his contract.
I don't remember who. Who's the disident, Yeah, just like.
He can't remember why they took the TNA title off Van Damn so quickly when he's because this contract had reached the maximum dates and people weren't paying enough attention.
Now that that's too much for me.
That one of the great, one of the great gimmicks everyone wrestling, and particularly the Mondy A War's era, Sting happened because they didn't have dates on him anymore, so they needed a storyline reason that he would not be at Nitro every week full of stuff. But yeah, the history of WWWW website and the ww section does have Sting working a television taping. They went to Disney MGM as they used to do for you know, three four nights of taping and they would tape syndication for like
two months in just those days. So November seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth of ninety six there they were in on the tenth and I think other nights as well. The results aren't really in for those tapings. These were the free tapings opened to park goers. It wasn't like people were taking very close notes on winners and losers. They were just randoms walking into the park. Occasionally though, someone would you know, go in who was a fan and send results to the newsletters.
And we do have that. On November tenth, nineteen ninety six, okay, at the Disney MGM studios, Sting wrestles and beats Hu Morris on these tapings. Watch exists on tape find it vault now now is it that number? Tenth ninety six Sting is Wrestling Boss three months almost three months after fall, bro, I need to see it. What's he wearing, what's he doing? Yeah, it's his mannerisms. What's his finish? What's his music? That's a question. What still a man called Sting? Well, let's
talk about it. What's what should see his music be? That's one piece we didn't touch. I've seen his music should be. Oh shit, did you have like a slow violin idea or something?
Yeah?
Well, oh yeah, I did have kind of like a classical music type thing, something very very different. Or I was thinking that it could be like, yeah, like a violent version of his theme. You know, that could be kind of a question, you know.
Of course, he had this heel track that he had created in case he went heel against the Rock and that back to back Wrestling Ania series they did, which was an idea that was being considered, and I guess it got leaked this and I don't know, I listened to it. I guess it sounds like it's just like a more aggressive rap. It's not like a departure from the rap theme, which I'm not saying it has to be, but I do.
Feel like the rap. I feel like the rap is going to be too close familiar.
Yeah, okay, all right, that's established something else that's going on in this whole vein of like you know, Hogan turns heel and has to still do media bishof turns heel and still has to do business deals. Sting has to pretend to be a fucking recluse and he still got obligations based on when he wasn't a recluse, including this appearance here. This is from October second of nineteen ninety six. Sting races the nWo Threat at the All Pro Bumper to Bumper three hundred. Okay, this is what
Stings up to. Wrestling Action hits top speeds at the racetrack on Saturday, October fifth, as former World Championship Wrestling w W number twenty nine car driven by Elliott Sadler becomes a new Sting car with a signature face paint design at the Busch Series All Pro bumpered of Mumper three hundred at the Charlotte Motor Speedway. The new number twenty nine Sting car design will be seen for the remainder of the Bush season season. This I think is
the black and white Sting. They changed the car to look like the new Sting. This radical look is a defiant challenge to the Kyle Perry Kyle Petty driven number forty nine Champion Motorsports Monte Carlo sponsored by the New World Order that will compete at the Busch Series All
Pro Bumper of Bumper three hundred. The NWOL led by Hollywood Hulkogan, along with the Giant Kevin Nash and Scott Hall, have threatened World Championship Wrestling with a hostile takeover by challenging WCW superstars Macho Manraady Savage, Sting, Lex Luger and Rick Flair. Sting, who will be in the number twenty nine pits on race day so he showed up at the Charlotte Motor Speedway to make a promotional appearance as Sting after becoming the Crow Guy in October. Yeah welcomes
the nWo challenge. Bring it on hard and fast, said Sting. The Numberumber twenty nine car is out to win the race. Beating the nWo will take care of itself. W SEW superstar Marchumin Ready Savage will also be at the October fifth race representing the number fifty seven slim gym car
driven by Jason Keller. The number twenty nine WCW car has experienced solid success in ninety six with two Busch Series victories at the Goodies three hundred and Daytone and thirty eighteenth and the Hummingbird fish Finder five hundred K in Talladay Go on July twenty seventh. Diamondridge Motorsports and World Championship Wrestling are a powerful tag team on the
NASCAR Busch Series circuit. World Championship Wrestling, where the Big Boys play, produces in markets, television program markets, television programs, and live events featuring wrestling superstars, and is operated by Turner Sports, a subsidiary of Turner Broadcasting System Incorporated. WCW programming can be seen in ninety four percent of the US television households each week on TBS superstation TNT and in syndication. Howry l language use couple big fucking thumbs
up up there to the press release. Big fucking thumbs up to the Alan Sharp press release. Alan Sharp, by the way, the WBPR agent who also plays the lawyer in the Nick Patrick Chris Jericho stuff. Yes, in between guys, so you know, reading the riot Act of Chris Jericho for various misdeeds.
Of course.
This is also nWo World Tour Day's Baby WCW versus nWo World Tour and n sixty four changed to Everything the Prey concursor to No Mercy in so many ways.
Oh for sure.
I remember playing WSW Versus the World on PS one with a Stark ninety six hype on.
In the background.
I remember that Nitro wow I trose before Stark ninety six and I'm another TV we had in the living room. We had the PlayStation on which we rented, so it was like vital that you get as much time in playing as you could. I believe WW versus the World with that's amazing nitrol on in the background behind me. This is from the Business Wire, also from this time period.
I remember seventh, nineteen ninety six, Nintendo signs THHQ as newest Nintendo sixty four member World Championship Wrestling Stars to be found on N sixty four. Nintendo of America Thursday announced that THHQ Inc. Is the latest member to join the team to develop or publish video games for the company's mega hit Nintendo sixty four home video game system.
Well over one half million units of Nintendo sixty four, the world's first true sixty four bit home video game machine, have sold in the United States since its debut on September twenty ninth, selling a new industry record, setting a new industry record, you believe n sixty four came out in nineteen ninety six, Like it was way after that.
God, well, not way after that, because I was definitely playing in high school and that was ninety eight or something. But in sixty four, No, yeah, it was like ninety seven. You need it? Do you remember getting excited about it?
Umm?
No, no, because you know, my mindset was I'm not going to get it. My parents are any going it for me?
You know.
I never fucking got Yeah, never got the new thing.
You know.
I was always you know, Nintendo came out and what ninety five eighty five the original Nintendo. Yeah, I got my Nintendo right before the SNS came out. It's like, you know, I was always the very fucking end of the of the road before I got a new incredible and yeah. So but I do remember that, I I forget it was for my birthdays when my mom they gave me a PlayStation PlayStation one and I liked it, but I was like, you know, if it's all the same, can we bring this back and get an N sixty four?
And we did because I had all my friends were playing gold Mine, you know, and GoldenEye was the fucking thing, like everyone was doing that, and they didn't have that on PlayStation. Was only on N sixty four, and I really wanted to get GoldenEye, and so we did. We brought it back, and you know, I got the N sixty four, but I and the first wrestling game I got on that was Attitude. Oh my god, Yeah, claims coming back? Did you hear that? Worse? I did hear
that Jeff Jarrett is involved in financing it? Somehow? That's insane as coming back? Why? I don't know, like what does that do for anybody?
But I know I can tell you that ww VERSW World Tour is a huge reason why nitro ratings started blowing up and why WCW's business started going through the roof, because people were discovering that WCW was a hot brand and had the best wrestling game. It wasn't just necessarily the case that WWF was going to have the best marketing collateral. All of a sudden, maybe ww was worth
looking at. I remember friends down the street, and one guy in particular was like, he did not believe me when I told him that this nWo that everybody was talking about was not a WWF angle because he couldn't wrap his head around the idea that WCW would do the highest thing in wrestling.
Nobody could, unreal, nobody could. That shit's fucking you know, he can't be. It can't be. There's no other wrestling federations all out.
No, it's just getting started here right around this time, just reving up the video game side. Well over one half million units of Nintendo sixty four, the world's first true okay, have been sold since debut Setember twenty ninth. Many stores still earned short supply of the product as consumers wait for new shipments to arrive. Thhq's game for the n sixty four system will be an exclusive version of World Championship Wrestling, one of the top ranked syndicated
television programs according to October Nielsen reports. The game will incorporate signature moves and voices of wrestling superstars including Nature Boy, Rick Flair, Rick Sting, Lex Luger, the Giant in Hollywood, Hulkogan. THQ has been a strong supporter of Nintendo for many years at Howard Lincoln Sherman, Nintendo of America were thrilled
to have them join the Nintendo sixty four team. This license confirms THHQ as a select publisher of games for all game console platforms, said Brian J. Ferrell, President and CEO of THHQ. Our success has and will continue to be based on publishing strong game content for hardware systems with an established customer base. World Championship Wrestling, our first release for the Nintendo sixty four, is another example of our commitment to enter a new market with a major title.
World Championship Wrestling, a subsidiary of TBS Incorporated, produces eight hours of original television programming each week broadcast What's this?
What's that? I heard? Eight hours and multiple We are writing this year down right down numbers and we get it, write down market stats. What we have is we provide colorful characters in a multitude of platforms across varying countries in about say, we put it in maybe five thousand languages.
A multitude of characters that we produce a multitude of characters, not television shows it's the characters. We produce the television and just follows on naturally. But at its heart, what we do is create those characters.
That, oh, you know, the television is created with a sense of pride and dignity that I think translates into an outcome that is visible and viable from a multitude of individuals watching television, watching entertainment, watching vehicles that create characters, tell stories, and they love it to integrity. You say that they have integrity? Is that what he said? I said, well, you know, I do believe that I have integrity. So
how many countries worldwide? I believe we are currently in eight thousand.
WW as it says right here, broadcast throughout the United States and more than twenty five countries worldwide.
Oh no, no, eight thousand. Easily we have you know, we are.
What we do.
Is what we do exactly, and what we do and we do it better than what anyone else can do. In a very diplomatic, dimatic diplomatic sense. Yeah, I mean, I mean eight thousand countries has to be diplomacy involved. Yes, yes, we we we involved diplomacy when it comes to producing entertaining.
Telephone As somebody who didn't get the sn E S during its you know, height of relevancy, did it? Did it hurt to see the Royal Rumble on the shelf with Hogan on it? It hurt to see money?
Well, I got the Genesis later though later if I got the if I got the Nintendo in ninety one, I probably got my Genesis in like ninety four. Right like when I after I got the Genesis, Segacy D came out, it was it was paid until you got
that Genesis. Yeah, absolutely, listen. It was awful because I wanted you know, they had the uh, the Royal Rumble with Hogan only on That's what I wanted because because that's why I I when when it came time that the Hogan was only on the s n E S four, No, the Genesis version, right, so that that that right, So when it came time and I was able to get
an upgrade, I wanted. Yeah, I wanted the Genesis because the Royal Rumble game for Genesis had Hogan in it, and as opposed to the the and the and for that matter, the uh, the Super WrestleMania game for Genesis had Warrior in it, Christ, which was different than both of course I didn't get the natural disasters, you know they were in and the Super that's right, exact amazing stuff. So you know they're given to you. You remember these things. It's so fucking much. Oh yeah, I mean, and then
this is the reason why I fucking took them. I needed I needed Hogan and it was hard to buy Raw. When the Raw game came out, that was hard to buy, Yeah, because Hogan wasn't it because he was in the other company at the time, to be Super Brawl. Oh that what They didn't have Hogan in it either, exse that came out before. No, I didn't even know that existed. Honestly, I just like I later on my sixteen bit game system era. Man, good luck ever getting back there.
You can't.
That's the whole that's the whole.
Fucking combat, you know, like all these games breaking the mold. Every two months something came out that broke the mold. He just scrambled to find a friend who had it.
And oh yeah, i'd you rented out.
You'd go to a Blockbuster or eight weeks in a row wouldn't be there, fucking hell, and then it would be and that would be the greatest weekend of your life and that's gone.
You have it.
And then I rented I rented King of the Ring. The only the only, yeah, I rented the was awful. The w King of the Ring game terrible play. That was absolutely awful. They had like the.
Other one that had the ring at like a if a perpendicular angle, like you were looking at it like it's a diamond instead of.
I know that, uh, WrestleMania Challenge, have that steel Cage Challenge, don't know? Steel Cage Challenge was Regular, which, honestly the worst fucking steel cage match you could possibly have where you win by climbing to the top of the cage. You don't climb to the floor. You stand on the top of the Yeah, on the top of the cage, and you raise your arm in victory. It's so fucking dumb.
Oh.
Now I had King of the Ring for Game Boy. I didn't have it. Wow, even worse, even worse.
It's right, It's like they were like they were trying to get comfortable putting Brett on the on the cover of the game instead of Hulk, you know, right right right?
Was it?
Luger and King of the Ring? Yeah, I remember that Yeah, he was weird roster for King of the Ring if I remember correctly.
So one more thing about World War Three that comes to mind, and this isn't because the match itself that happens in Norfolk, Virginia is emblematic of this, but it's it happens during the time period, and it's probably the only opportunity we're going to get to look at this dynamic because it's the only pay per view match really that that would count for. It is the saga between Jerry Saggs and Scott Hall. Do you do you know or remember any of this?
Ah, I know a little.
I don't know, always touched on it before in the past. I'm not sure exactly in which context to tell you the truth, but some of this will be a little bit of a visiting. But I look more deeply into it because it was during this era when the Nasty Boys would mix it up with the Outsiders, because the Outsiders were WCW Tag Team champions and were working the Faces of Fear and working the Nasties and other tag
teams on the house show circuit. Something that's always so important to remember about those early nWo days that after Hogan turned heel and won the world title. Like the outsiders were just going to be like mid card guys. You know, they were important right, characters for sure, but when it came time to wrestle, their match was not
going to be the main event, right. They were just going to be the tag They were just going to be the guys that held down the tag team titles while Hogan held down the World Giant or whoever held down the US six held down the cruiserweight. It was never that Hall and Nash were of equal stature to Hogan as it regards the position on the cards. Crucial to remember that. So here they are mixing it up with all these WCW tag teams because that's how they
were slotted, and among them were the Nasty Boys. And there was an incident. It all starts, actually, now that I looked closely at it, on the same nitro that we just heard We're Bischoff turns Heel. At the very top of that episode, they jumped right into action and say, ladies and gentlemen, we're live here in Charleston and it's chaos. Hall and Nash have hit the ring and started attacking
people with chairs. This is during like a Luca six man tag match, and for some reason the Nasties come out as well, and Hogan Hall hits the ring and absolutely cracks Jerry Saggs in the back of the head with.
A steel chair. You know, there's a huge goose egg.
On Sags's head, and there was real concern that he suffered like a very serious concussion and like a career altering injury. And that was kind of you know, the first shot across the Bow and what would become a serious, a serious series of disputes and even a lawsuit involving these parties. He claims SAgs does to have suffered a concussion and a spinal injury in that in a subsequent situation.
So what happens here World War three is between that one nitro first fire across the Bow and the fateful January nineteen ninety seven WW House show in Shreveport, Luisiana where things got so out of control that Jerry Saggs beat the shit out of Scott Hall and punched a
tooth out of his face. Wow, Because he felt like despite the prior warnings about avoiding Jerry Sagg's neck and despite the prior instances where he was hurt like by a Scott Hall attack and then perceiving that Nation Hall were laughing about it backstage, although certainly a National Hall would dispute the characterization of them laughing at the fact that Jerry Saggs was hurt, but more laughing at kind
of the circumstance overall. But that led to SAgs getting really you know, harboring deep resentment and just straight up attacking Scott Hall. And it was kind of the talk of the business for a little while, and it caused Jerry Saggs to just sit out to try to claim career ending injuries and try to sue the pants off Scott Hall on WCW for this whole you know, workplace situation.
So we do see several moments, I don't know if you if you would agree, of course, at World War three it was Nation Hall versus the Barbarian and Meng and the Nasties and a triangle tag team match for the titles. Yeah, and do you feel like there are several moments in this match where these guys are just throwing way too recklessly and it's getting like really out of control.
Yeah, it did feel a little bit like that.
It had me like do a double take on like, is this the match that all this shit stemmed from? Because people talk about it like it was on TV?
Really it it?
It?
It also felt very sloppy, right, you know, And and to me, if it's sloppy, something's up, I think unless you're just really really bad. And the thing is, well, none of these guys are, you know, excellent workers. They're all seasons the typically I've you know, I've seen good and bad Nasty Boy matches, I've seen good and bad Barbarian mag matches. I've seen good and bad Outsiders matches, but I've never seen them really sloppy. And that's what I noted was that it was very, very sloppy.
There are several moments where the match kind of devolves into one guy cornering another guy and just throwing, and then two other guys get involved in just fists are flying like it's a bar fight, and it's pretty intense. But it also seems against type, like you're saying, for all these guys, it seems like something's a miss, like they're lost or something's going wrong. And it's interesting to know that there had already been that initial conflagration between
Scott Hall and Jerry Sag. So maybe we are seeing a little bit of live rounds being thrown. Maybe we are seeing a little bit of a preview of what was to happen in January at that house show that blew this whole thing up. But watch this one closely at World War three because I think you see a little bit of a hint at wants to come as they kind of test each other's limits a bit. And here we're going to go through it and what the
parties have said about it over the years. Here's Scott Hall in a shoot interview on RF video and he's describing an incident that I'm pretty sure is the aforementioned November nitro where that chair shot cracked SAgs in Duscott Hall as only he can takes us from there.
I mean you and Jerry SAgs and wcw In in the matter up.
Well.
One of the things that happened that started to out the grief was Kevin and I got paid real well when we came in and a lot of guys were there took pay cuts and not because of us, and we didn't know anything about it, but some guys were making like three hundred and fifty grand a year, and they came to and they weren't working. Back then, they didn't even run housees because they couldn't they couldn't draw, and so they said, we can't give you three fifty,
but we'll give you three hundred. So a lot of guys agreed to it. Apparently the Nasty Boys agreed to take a pay cut. And when they bitched about it. By the way I heard it was Terry chefs. So we had a hall of dash gin all the money. So right away we get heating. Wow, it's just I get heat anyway.
I don't care, you know, I like it, of course not, you know, but sciat.
Seeing because we're obnoxiously happy, you know we are. We're walking around smile and laughing because we getting paid and we don't care.
Who knows it?
All right?
So word again heat in other words, like everyone hates us. Okay, So that's necessary precondition Terry Taylor walking around. That's the way telling people they're making real money. So that's why they really pissed the Nasty Boys, at least to hear Hall tell it.
So here's some more.
We were told to hit the ring.
We're somewhere and they're wrestling some Mexican wrestlers and me and Ken are supposed to hit the ring and lay them out with chairs.
Go first and faster than cav So I slide in with the chair.
I straddled one of the Mexican guys who was down, and I waffled sacks with a chair and swing a chair.
I swim to me.
It's like, don't ask me to hit you with a gimmick because I'm gonna hit you. I'd rather not do it, or I'm gonna do it, and I'll take it the same way.
I don't.
I don't do that, I said it. So I hit him.
I didn't know that I potato them. He rolled out of the ring and he had his back like this, and I thought he was feeding me. I almost hit him again from inside the ring to the fore because I thought he wanted another one, because before we went out and I was.
Let make sure you lay it in, la it in.
So what happened was now he comes back and he's got a big goose egg on his head, and as he's like turning the corner and I'm sitting there talking to Ken, and I said.
Oh, Ken man, I said, I potatoed SAgs.
Man, I said, I am so happy because I guess he was delirious and I thought he was feeding me for a second one. But I didn't do it, And I said, man, I am so happy I didn't hit him again. I said, I almost hit him again. I was kind of doing a nervous laugh. And at that moment, SAgs turned the corner with a big goose egg and he sees me and kid going out, and he's thinking, they're taking my money now, they're taking the liberties with me. They got potato me on purpose, and he thinks it's funny,
is the way I perceived that. He perceived it because I've known him a long time.
And they knew each other back from the AWA days. See, so you get that, like he's saying, like him and Kevin are like laughing, Man, I'm just glad I didn't hit him, you know, harder or anything like that. And Sag sees that and thinks they're laughing about the fact that they hurt him, which, of course, Kevin Ash Scott Hall wouldn't do that.
They wouldn't laugh about that at all. No, never, I mean, listen, there, they're great guys and they're very considerate of others or you know, they would never ever make forgot anybody very good. Here's Brian Knobbs talking to Hannibal about the whole episode. See if we can detect any overlaps or contradictions here.
You know, it was you know, it was what issue where you know, it was all done before cameras were even coming on. You really ain't even have to get hit that hard. So when he got hit, he cracked a couple of his vertebrae in the back of his neck, and you know, from then on, and Sag came back and he was there with Kevin Suloman and and Kevin Nash and out we're there and they were laughing, but
I don't think they were laughing about that. And then Sag took it because he had a big a I mean his neck, there's a big I mean goose egg like a sawtwaterback, So Sag didn't know how to take it, like did they do that on purpose? So that kind of kind of stirred it up. And then after that everything was calmed down to they put us back on the road again where we were supposed to wrestle. So that situation was totally w CW's fault.
But Kevin and.
Scott, I mean especially Scott. Scott's been friends of ours since way back Awa. I mean, we were good friends. He was one of the guys with Austin, Marty and Sean and you know Kurt, so we were all a little crew ourselves. So and Kevin never had a beef with him in my life. So it's all good, man. I mean, things happen, and you know, that's life.
He's a weft fand wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need their candy. It's the lapsed Fan. He's the lapsed Fan wrestling podcast with Jack and Carnaco and JP Soorro.
That's life.
So yeah, he's speaking the point that that chair shot didn't have to land that hard because they weren't even on TV yet. They were, however, filming it to show as what happened before we went on the air, and it's weird. If you watch that Nitro at the beginning, Hall runs in swings a chair and then they freeze frame it and you can hear the crack, but they don't show the impact. I don't know if that was like a decision made on the fly, like he just
really hurt SAgs. Let's show but let's not show it kind of thing, or if maybe when they went back and edited that episode of Nitro, if it wasn't freeze framed initially.
I think it was.
It's based in the commentary that you hear Shamanei and Zubisco doing. But yeah, it starts with total chaos as if like before cameras went on the nWo hit the ring in the match they had nothing to do with, and somehow Jerry Saggs gets caught in the crossfire. And Knobbs's point is, you know, if it's not going to be on television, why do you have to crack him that hard. I mean, it's not even like anyone's.
Going to see it.
But you know, all's good in the hood there as far as Knobs Knobs, they talk about him as just being like trying to reconcile and say, you know, this is a my deal and trying to say, like you don't want to come after me Kevin and Nash was like, no, it's it's on everybody. I'm coming after everybody. Because Nash gets really pissed off about this whole thing, and grabs a baseball bat and all that. When Hall gets attacked
in the middle of that match in January ninety seven. Yeah, so here's Kevin Nash on KFAB commentary is talking about it.
Hey, Suberry a friend. But there was a spot for Sean Waltman to come in on a run in and he was in Shawn's defense. He was blind, so the run in was misceued. And uh, there was also a ming and Barbarian were also. It was a six man tag match, so it turned into a cluster and SAgs did SAgs did something. SAgs threw the chair into the ring, and if I'm not mistaken, it was like a Brunswick bowling chair. It wasn't a folding Yeah, it wasn't a
folding chair. So when Scott you know, and the way they used to light back then, wasn't you know, some kind of a trust situation. It was basically the ring was lit and then outside of that it was sickly dark space. So to take an object and throw it from that light down to somebody, it was like once it came through that light and the chair hit Jerry like if this was the seat of the chair, it
hit him like almost like that. So he slid back in and I was in the corner and you know, and things are getting elevated in physicality and Ming's starting to lay it in and I'm like, I'm thinking, like like like starting to get pissed. And I said to him, I said, hey, easy, like, you know, like, what are we doing here? To me?
Yeah, to Ming, and you know, and now.
It's one of those situations of we have to So I'm trying to get loose from Ming and barb in the corner, and then sat our knobs peeled a barb off and I'm just turning to the referee and going, fucking deq it. You know, it's turned into it. It's like this is would be a DQ fucking DQ the match.
So in the meantime, SAgs comes under the bottom rope and I see him in Scott exchange and blows in the middle of the ring, and finally, you know, I got I went outside outside, folded at the announced table, came in and pick opened it up and picked the announced table up over my head and they all bailed on it. And I turn around and Scott is just pouring blood out of his nose and his mouth.
It's eesus.
I mean, I was living and I went in the locker room. I grabbed a bat, and I think it was Knobs or SAgs was sitting there, and I swung the bat like right above their head, like that far above their head. And I was gonna fucking mean, I was gonna kill him, and because it's my boy, and Scott said, no, man, He said, he thinks he's right, you know. He said, that's one thing about Scott, you know, he's just like he thinks he's right. So Scott went home, he had to get donal work done because he busted
some teeth and shit. And so then I kept the bat. And then the next night we were in maybe Alexandria or someplace else. I remember that Dugan walked the nasty boys in the back and I was sitting on a car with the baseball bat and what Doug looked at me and said, he said, I'm not a part of this. I said, fine, I get out a part of it. And I just looked the other two motherfuckers. I just just looked at him. And then Knobs, who wasn't involved in the situation, came up to me later and said,
any way, we've been friends for a long time. You know this is between those guys. That's about it. Man, Yes, that's the same. So then we went to New Orleans for Nitro and Eric was going to fire the Nasty Boys on the spot, and it was basically Scott's call, and Scott said no.
So there there, you got got real serious.
There is Nash the bat and uh and Hall has a bit of a same recollection about this, this generary house show.
So then now we're in some other town.
We're in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, stuff like that, and it's it's it's ming and Barbarian nasty boys and me and keV and a like one of those cluster six man.
Three three acting deals.
Yeah, and the finishes kid who'd wrestled earlier, are supposed to run down, throw us a gimmick. We're supposed to knock everybody out and keep the belts that kid got. He doesn't come down. So now it's time to go home, and there's no kid. So we're going, what is going on now?
It's really getting out of control.
So the Nasty Boys start throwing furniture in the ring, so they throw SAgs, goes stomping down the steps. Those are plastic chair in the ring. Go stomping back on the steps. Now I pick up the chair. You slew it in a ring yet, dumby, So I pick it up. He comes walking in, looks right at me. I got the chair like this, and I did like like Saboo does, like Kevin Salomon does. It's a plastic chair. He's looking
right at me. I think he's paying attention. So I pushed the chair at him like that and it hits them and it rattles when people go oh. By this time, now Ming is hitting me, you know, because we're the heels and now there are other two teams are like bayfas.
So Ming's hit me with working shots and SAgs is drilling me with live rounds. But see he's stiff anyway.
Yeah, I don't think I'm sorry. He's drilling him with live Jesus Christ.
Wow.
Finally look at him and I realized he's raging. He's mad. He's seriously mad. So I just pushed him away, like what's your problem.
He knocked my tooth out, even lost the tooth when he knocked it out into the fifth row, and it punctured my cheek, and you know, your mouth is so filled back to here that my face was like this and instantly, so I turned back around.
You know, now blah blah blah, it's over.
You know.
They finally get them out of the ring. I'm standing at me and keV got the staff or stay out. I turned around to Kevin. Kev's my face all messed up. He goes, what the F And I said, his SAgs.
Man.
keV goes marches back in the locker and picks up Stink's baseball bat and he goes say the word he's dead. That's your keV. He thinks he's right, man. He thinks he's right because he thought that I.
Was doing that.
I was taking liberties with him again because Ken was going to kill keV walked in there and just swum the baseball that right above.
His head and said, you want to find out who's got stroke around here?
You?
And oh God.
So I go to the hotel.
We're all going to go out party bat Rouge that night, because this is a sweet little party town.
All the Mexican boys, Braver Stei On.
Hoovie and Cone and they all come in my room with keV and I'm sitting there with this my face was sow and I can't laugh as it hurts.
And they'll go, come on, let's go out, and and skew.
You ain't going anywhere like this, you know, you know, And they so Bishoff called my room that night and he goes, hey, hear what happened? You know?
My god? He goes, you know, he's fired. He's fired. I'll fire him instant, I said, I I'll fire him. I've known twenty years. Said he's got kids. I said, I don't want to work with it anymore. But I said, fire him.
And you know that was and I think what happened was he ended up sitting at home for a long time and he got paid. And I mean i've seen him since then, you know, And it was just it was it's just something to happen, you know, it was. And I didn't intend for that to happen to him. And he intended to hurt me, which is wrong. I mean, the way I look at it is, if you had a problem with me, you.
Should have took it.
You should have fought me in the locker room. Don't don't hit me live rounds in the ring when I'm giving you my body. I mean I'm leaning my face out there and he's hitting me with everything he has. And when you're supposed to be that man like you can lift their car off a baby itself. One thing I'm proud of this dude's hitting me with everything he got.
He can't even knock me out, still taking shots at him after all this making up and everything knock me out. I do love Scott saying he thinks he's right, and what I mean, I don't even know what that means.
That he thinks he's in the right for attacking me like that because I hit him with that chair and hurt him. He's paying me back. But it's this happens after World War Three, so it's hard for me to like watch this magic World War three and figure out if what I'm watching is like the first draft of what he would do to him in January and Louisiana or right if it escalates from there. Here's another perspective we like to get all uh, you know, Carosawa on
you here. Yes, here's a barbarian on the Wrestling Shoe Interviews channel show.
The deal was Nesty Boy was working some guys in the ring and Horror Nest supposed you know, you know, supposed to you know, slide in and in the field. So what happens Scott Hall great a chair, great a chair.
And hit the.
Sacks, says Cherry. Cherry in the bag of the brada. You don't come with the and hit the guy in the back of the head. You don't do that, you know, hit him in the front so he can protect himself. You and he hit him so hot, brother.
Man.
The thing swallow like a grapefruit, like a grape foot the bag. So they rush from the hospital concussion. So it peeled up the you know up the build them up and until we do the you know, the the day team eliminate show what happened?
Me and Ming?
So those four so those two guys, they tumbled team Scott, yes, Scot Scott all outside, Cherry and Brian of state up date. They beat They beat him up so bad, you know, I mean for real, not to work for real. They beat them bloody. I mean, so and me and Ming we are working on the big guy Kevin on the corner. I said, I said, guys, guys, guys, please please stop stop so so our pack, our our pack to them so but nest his face. He short the whole thing. I said, guys, guys, please stop, I do help you.
I said, what do you mean, brother? They beat here are so bad? Yeah, yeah, we were there. We were there in the ring with them, and we were there and there, and what happened The giant what's your name?
Paul?
Yeah, yeah, Paul, Yeah, he came and they gave it nasty somehow. He grabbed a baseball bed. He wanted to kill the nasty boy. So so me and Ming, Me and Ming we you know, we grabbed him. We talked to him. You know, everything was good, you know, finally they share a done and but yeah, well what a night, what a night? You know, the people start it's a big house. The people start leaving because they knew all this for real, so they start leaving, you know instead yeah,
instead of entertained them for let's start leaving. I mean they yeah, I mean, yeah, I like Scott, I like I like their love letty boys, but I don't want to see, you know, and anything happened, you know like that.
You know, I was with him until he said people left.
It got real. I don't understand then, Yeah, well does that. But yeah, there's barbarians perspective on all that went down. They were in the ring as well, and finally we hear from at least in SoundBite format here. Finally, Kevin Nash further on the KFABE commentary's interview about this, taking us back to the the aforementioned March ninety six night Pardon Me November ninety sixth Nitro where Hall cracked SAgs with the chair.
It was an incident that happened earlier with Scott had thrown a chair at him in another televis of that and hit Jerry in the head and Jerry we were like it was the next TV. Jerry looked right at JJ and said, I can't work man, my next bad and fucking JJ said to him, just fucking go out there and work, uh like, basically forced him to whoa. And I was I witnessed that. I mean I witnessed that.
And I when when all this shit went down and they sued and everything else, I said, you stupid motherfucker. I said, you put us in a lawsuit. I said, if you just would have went after the company, the guys that were involved in the incident, one of them would have said, oh, by the way, he should have never been in either of those two. Had he been pulled at that point with the neckidge, you can recount what you heard, yes, and I would have it would
have deposed me. I mean, it's a never fucked the boys, you know, sue the boys. You don't fuck the boys. It's the boys versus the promoter. That's the way it's always been. They broke the golden rule. I think fucking SAgs gotta fuck it, didn't work for fucking three years and got a twelve dollars settlement. You know, so nice, nicely fucking played match.
Nice nicely fucking played so point there is that part of the reason there was such a blow up about Hall hitting SAgs in the neck was not because it was an honest mistake, but because it was known beforehand that SAgs was having real tenderness in the neck and was telling people that he didn't even think he could go out and work with the neck problem. He was having, let alone take a blindside chair shot to the neck.
And so you know, it gets all legal about like, well, if Dylan told him he had to go out there, whose fault is it?
Really?
You know, there's all that wrapped up in it. Sas has never talked as far as I can tell on camera about this, but there is an interview that he did with a website called wrestlshark dot com that used to exist where he talks just a little bit about it, and he says Scott was different when he came down to WCW. I don't know if it was chemically altered. Everyone changes when they come out of that pressure cooker in WWF. It's stressful. Some of the guys turned into backstabbers.
Some guys deal with the pressure in different ways. We were doing a thing at a house show. I felt this blow to the back of my skull that way in the house show.
That was the nitro.
I felt this blow to the back of my skull and knocked me out at a concussion the whole nine yards. I was mad about it, almost the kind of thing. I was going to fight him then, but I let it go. JJ called me and said, we just need you to make the rest of these bookings. You're on the marquee. So we get into the match. I tried to stay out as much as I could. It got all screwed up because six Pack was supposed to run down and do something, but he never showed up suddenly.
I didn't know what hit me and went down. I'm seeing stars. I felt like there was a cut on the back of my neck, but I'm feeling back there and there's no cut. I look around and I didn't know who hit me from behind. I see Scott with a chair and he throws it in my face.
I go, that's it.
So that's kind of like what they leave out on the whole, you know. There was another provocation in the body of this match. The match where SAgs attacked Hall, there was another moment where SAgs thought, the son of a bitch hit me again in the back of the head. Jesus, I walked in the ring and just started hitting him with punches, knocked him out. It just happened like that. I didn't want to fight him, It just happened. Something was building up there from the first time he hit me.
Then it happened again. I heard this noise from the shower. Kevin Nash comes in the locker room with a back and he was saying, we'll see who has the stroke in this company. That was pretty much him telling us we were getting fired. At the time, they were practically booking, and I've just knocked the booker's teeth down his throat.
When we watch the.
Tape back, we see, oh my god, it wasn't Scott with the chair, it was Kevin Nash with the tag belt. So that thing, according to SAgs, that set him off to attack Scott halland knock his teeth out of his face was not another blind side cheer shot from Scott Hall, but in fact a belt shot from Kevin Nash. Thus why there was probably a bit of confusion when he absolutely went completely crazy there. So that's that's that. Hall has also said, you know, I think we heard it.
When I swing a chair, I swing it. Don't ask me to hit you with something because I'm gonna hit you with it. I'd rather not do it, but if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it, and I'll take it the same way. So that whenever I see the outsiders mix it up with the nasty boys, I cannot help but think about this story in this history.
Yeah, I mean, that's that's the truth. I mean, Jesus Christ, and you know, like.
He says, they are Jerry Saggs, Hall and Nash were already making a reputation for themselves in WCW in the locker room as people that would throw their weight around, throw their salaries around, and throw their influence around. Here's
another snapshot of that from the same time period. WCW did a show in tupeloam Misissippi on October thirteenth, nineteen ninety six, and in the main event, National Hall beat Harlem Heat via dq Dave Penzer, in his recently released book with Guy Evans, Friend of the Show, talks about this night, and I think it says a lot about the outsiders at this particular point in time and kind
of how they were conducting themselves in WCW. I remember one meeting that happened after house show in Tupelo, Mississippi. Penzer writes a little backstory. First, I was in charge of overseeing the music for the show, and as we previously established, it was all triggered via cassette tapes. A lot of times the cassette machine was up in the sound booth near where the suites were located, and as
a result I didn't always have full control over it. Nonetheless, we typically had individual tapes queued up with individual entrance themes, so sting song would be on one tape, while another would have Randy Sabas just theme.
You get the idea.
As long as the tapes were round correctly, the sound guy just had to press play and the song went off without a hitch. Well, on this night, Kevin National Scott Hall wanted to come out to the Fuji song Ready or Not. Okay, they would come out to Ready or Not on house shows. I don't know if you know this as opposed to the nWo theme.
No, I did not know.
Later, when Hall made one memorable appearance in ECW, this is like a viral clip. He came out to Ready or Not.
As well.
As WCW didn't have an official license to use the music Penzer rights, we didn't have a tape with that specific song prepared. Instead, we had to purchase the actual retail album that Ready or Not was featured on the score and have the tape queued up in the right position. Imagine setting someone to the music store at the mall in Mississippi so they could have their song. That's just It was the third song on saide A. I'll never
forget it. Unfortunately, while I was in the ring to introduce Kevin in Scott's match, the sound guy put the tape in the wrong way. If you know anything about cassette tapes, that obviously meant that we were now playing side B the wrong side. Once you start doing that, it's not so easy to get your Q point back, especially in a live environment, and the sound guy had no idea year where the song was located. Meanwhile, Kevin and Scott were still backstage, refusing to come out until the.
Error was resolved. Refusing boss, refusing to come out until this song. That doesn't make sense. I don't see the problem.
In turn, that led to five of the most uncomfortable minutes of my life as I tried in vain to stall in the ring for time while simultaneously getting on a headset and attempting to fix it. At some point, I guess Sting finally turned to those guys and said, dude, just go out there. How long are we going to wait? We need our music.
Kevin and Scott shot back, Wait a minute, how long are we going to wait? We need our music?
Kevin and Scott shot back, you know what, Sting respond Sting responded, it's only two below. This is the yeah that would go on to be a thing, a phrase as Penzer explains in WCW to typify at the times. This is the reason, he writes, by WCW is where it's been, has been, where it's been, they said, you don't value a town like Tublo, Mississippi. For the next Nitron Monday, Era called a meeting with all the boys.
I want you to know, he began, that I brought Kevin and Scott in for more than just their talent. We've not had a history of being successful in this company, and for the most part, if we drew a thousand fans that was considered a good house, that can't be he continued. These guys have sold out Madison Square Garden and they come from a machine that knows how to do it right. I don't have all the answers, he said, but we've got to take from their knowledge to grow
as a company. That's all they're doing, Boss, They're just in parting home works in New York. That's all these guys are doing. They're not trying to stir shit up. They're not trying to be prima donnat. So everyone was just you know, everyone's just making a big y. Know how it works in New York as evidenced by the remarkable returns in nineteen ninety five when Kevin was on top. Yes, I don't have all the answers, he said, but we've just got to take from their knowledge as a company,
and Bishoff is get in liney. We got to be like WWF. You know, mister, I'm taking it to vince what we did in the past didn't work. In essence, what Eric told us had some validity. Kevin and Scott really did a lot add a lot to our company. They helped us in areas people wouldn't even think of, such as public relations or helping Zane Breslov with first day ticket sales. They provided a lot of assistance and
in that sense Eric was right. But then, of course, with Eric being Eric, he had to add a parting shot. And by the way, he said, if I ever hear it's only two below again, I'll fire that person on the spot. He's usually a very laid back guy. You could see the steam coming out of Sting's ears. I don't even think he meant the initial comment in the way it was received. He's basically saying, what are we going to sit here all day while they flip a
casseet tape? Back and forth at some point, as they say, the show must go on. But when Eric made that statement, I'll fire that person on the spot. Sting got hot. He left the room, and I can only assume that there was a conversation or two thereafter. More than anything, the incident underscored the fact that it was a new
day in WCW. The mainstays of the company like Staing, lex or Rick, Flair and the Four Horsemen had been used to doing business in a certain way, but now Kevin and Scott had returned from up north saying yeah, there's some things that could be improved down here. At the time, I think some feelings were definitely hurt, and the incident may have started some of the tension between the various factions backstage. Adding fuel to the fire was the fact that the nWo were getting cheered as if
they were babyfaces. In the meantime, though, it only served as for a popular joke at the bar. Hey, someone would say, if a guy was looking down, it's only two below. That's only two below. Indeed, it is only two tenser. So that is the table being set for a World War three. For the ages, it's the nineteen ninety six installment.
That's for sure. To deep dive this thing. Now, I don't know what a death toll would look like. You had a lot of names to go through. My friends there there are. It's not it's not awful. I mean it's bad, but it's not awful. Nineteen that's nothing out of sixty participants, I know, out of sixty's nineteen and you know, including everybody who's not even in the match. So there's very Todnight.
Yeah.
Randy Anderson, Mark Curtis, Bobby Heenan, Dusty Rhodes, Lee Marshall, gene Oakerland, Sister Sherry, Scott Hall, Ben Wah, Bubba, Bobby Eaton, Jimmy Graffiti, Oh my God, Johnny, Johnny Grunge, Eddie Guerrero, Ice Train, the Rene God, Tony Rumble, Mark Starr, and Pez that's nothing. Yeah. W CW. You know the surprising thing. W CW never really has a crazy ass. Yeah. I've always been surprised about the.
No adults died In two thousand and one was Jerry Sagg's lawsuit against World Championship Wrestling Scott Hall BACKUS, so he sued them all. The lawsuit was filed in November of nineteen ninety seven, so a year after this, and you know what, eight months after the January ninety seven house show incident. And it was in the courts from nineteen ninety seven till two thousand and one, till two thousand and one, at which point it was, uh, it
was dismissed. Nash made the comment that he got a two dollars settlement or whatever.
I don't know.
It's clear that it's dismissed as of August of two thousand and one, and the case file has been destroyed, so we don't have any more detail than that as to how it played out down there in Florida. But yeah, I mean, this thing, this thing would not die. They took depositions from Harley Race, Dory Funk, the position of Eric Bischoff, the company was deposed, Nash and Hall were deposed. Let's see who else. I don't know, if there's a way to well, I don't know. Bischoff's deposition may have
been canceled according to the record. I think at one point he was scheduled to do it and then they didn't. Steve Kern was deposed. Yeah, Dorry Funk is mentioned a doctor who apparently was the doctor who examined, examined, Jerry Saggs. Just man, well, those must be some depositions, man.
Of a lifetime.
I don't know what the fuck Dory Funk and Harley Race would get deposed for, but there it is in black and white. So yeah, that's the legacy of the SAgs haul Heat. And with that now behind us and the death toll rendered, we will take a break and come back. And when we do, it's the deep dive into your WWE Peacock archive. WCW World War three nineteen ninety six is on the docket, boss, and we're gonna fill these three rings up.
Let's fucking do it.