Ep. 393: Summer Mailbag 2024

Yo, somebody talks TV new meddle add a strong style fab Son, you're gonna ring the ball water you go over the top like talking about Slone. It's the laps fan man number one in the ring. Forget about Osada with a real king of swing when the bell goes hang and the kick like men throon in the corner with its rash like stick. Even Jerry King and sake off the crowd nodded in his head like a Teve low Brown were getting low down, goat even higher, flipping you on your head. But you're no

cool driver sitting morenage and dragon spits fire. Give you more shot than when their tree tires dropping more truth than the con of sniper. Bless you with a coconut Roddy Piper jacking JP he like j y d drop the cupcakes and got the brain. Bove means the best podcast from the start to close. Cloud If y'all benefit this flass about time as we look out onto sunny shores and deep humidity. Boss, are you ready yes? If you love the sun? I hate summer. I hate it. I hate it, okay

more than any summer. What a bummer thing. It's it's the worst. It's so it's so hot. I I you know, like the my daily schedule is completely thrown out the window. It's it's miserable. It's the worst, Like I got no time to do anything because I'm driving everywhere and going to fucking you know, low end theme parks and shit like that. It's so true, like people act like summer is a time of leisure, and

I guess if you have enough money, it is. But for the most part, for most of us, yeah, if you got enough money that you don't have to take your kids with you and you have them like in a kennel, right for for for a couple of weeks. Yeah, it's a vacation, right, or you have somebody who has their own house and the property take care of the kids and white polos or whatever. But for most of us it is twelve times yes, the packed schedule it is.

It's summer. What the fuck are you doing about it? It's summer. Are you gonna make it worth it? Are you gonna make it picturesque? Or are you just gonna sit in the ac like some kind of loser. Right, that's I'll ac loser, right, And that's where that's where we naturally want to go, but Summer says, no, you suck. If you do that, get out there and suffer, right, Get out there and suffer. No, and do it in a tank top please? Yeah,

right, exactly. And there are a lot of things I love about Summer, but I know it's a trigger word for you, so I hate it. This is our Summer twenty twenty four mail bag, folks, plenty of mail and feedback from the best listenership in all of podcasting. It's been piling up as we've been casting pretty long and pretty hard about all manner of subjects. The random draws, if you will, in terms of the shows we've been picking, have taken us on some and I've seen some question as

to how the like how if they're truly random? They are truly random, I swear to God random. The question is, if we wanted to have this kind of serendipity, we just wouldn't draw the shows at random. We just put whatever shows we wanted to exactly why the pretense of pretending to do a draw. If we want to pick the shows, we still sit in control, yes, but it's it's it's been remarkable how how much alignment there has been with what is sort of you know, in the air, in

the atmosphere, in the wrestling discourse. At the same time, we pick a show like Agreed at the tail end at the four part Vice WCW series, and it's like this is this is really strange. And of course, as we announced at the tail end of the show, if we haven't made it all the way through greed yet living dangerously two thousand ECW style with dusty roads still squarely, it's great in focus somehow some way coming next. Fucking keep me, keep me happy. Yeah, I think it wasn't too long

ago that I insisted you add ECW to that little hat you have. It wasn't even awesome. It wasn't an insistence. It was just a you mentioned it, and I was like, all right, and I guess I should do that. And now I regret it. So we're going to keep doing this the paye. It will continue a pace. It's working really well, but we are no, no, we are starting to feel that itch to bring back the traditional hopper. It's it's starting to present itself. Will it

spread? How quickly will it spread? Well? We need calamine lotion. Those things still to be determined. Here to be determined, but keep your keep your hand on your wallets, okay, because the time might come when we're done just you know, drawing names ourselves and it's time to go back to the Solar System and get them in the spot because it's been too long. And in that spirit, here on the Feedback Show, we're going to mix it up a bit. It's not just going to be your written letters

via of course Patreon and the lapsed fan at gmail dot com. How about

some real time feedback? How about it? The heavyweight Champion of TLF Solar System members, Tom is back in the spot because Tom started corresponding with us as we rolled out our TLF tackles who killed WCW series and goddamn did he have some shit to say And we tuched some of it in Tom and we talked a little bit about it. But I just want a table whatever you've got on your mind, because there's really a lot to think about now that

that series is in the books and everyone's had their say and had their crack and we've done the interviews and stuff and did greed. Where are you at? What do you feel needs to be said holistically about this? This resurgence of discussion about WCW's demise. Yeah, thanks for having me. First of all, I really do appreciate. This is really annoyed me in a weird way, Like I think part of it is this is kind of righting my

wheelhouse and then my backgrounds in history. It's been twenty four years or whatever, twenty three years since the end of WCW, so you can actually start to talk about these things historically. I've worked in the TV and film business for a long time, and I really do think this is a TV story in the end, and beyond that, you can also, as you know, as the stuff becomes like longer than two, you can start to revise

history. And I think there's a lot of revisionism going on about like the death of w CW and especially sort of like this push that I think and

I don't. I think the show is actually pretty good. I think that there's been some sort of like there's almost like real time revision going on about the show, because I think people are like, oh, I thought you were going to come to some real conclusion or have some sort of you know, big reveal at the end of the fourth episode, like Seagull was gonna be like, yeah, it was me all along, or like sort of in a Vince way, Can I stop you there? Because this is becoming

a real pet peeve of mine. On documentaries, It's never going to happen. You're never going to get that, with the exception of whatever that show was, and god damn it, I always forget the HBO series with the murderer at the end who walks into the other walks into in the bathroom that he killed or or whatever. Right right, that has what you're looking for, But most people that seem to want this out of shows didn't see that. The thing is, I feel like, you know, if you know,

if I what what has happened? I feel I feel like is that which the James there? Yeah, there have been there have been a number of different you know, documentary forms of media. I say that what you just talked about, as well as like that initial season of of what the

fuck is the show? Serial? You know where they have and even there's this show this this this true crime podcast that my wife and I listened to on a on a long drive one time that was like, you know, there was some kind of you know change, it caused some kind of change.

That ship's rare. It's so rare. And the thing is the reason why they become so popular is because they're rare because something this like in the midst of millions of documentaries that are produced on a on thousands of subjects, this one actually came to a true conclusion, whereas most documentaries, unless you're doing some kind of historical one, they don't come to a new conclusion because

you know, the likelihood of that is is very very rare. The story is being you know, revisited, it's not being reinvestigated, right, and that that's but there seems to be like this appetite for documentaries to have a twist ending, like of course a non documentary film, Well, now that you've done it, now that you've now that that people now that it's actually

happened, you know, now people like you need to do that. You need to have some sort of history cloaking down or some kind of weird closure at the end that that that you know, remained satisfying, which it isn't. You know, It's it's annoying to me because it's people running away from the fact that life is never that satisfactory in terms of the explanations. Of course, no matter if we know this that that that's a testament to the

length of our catalog. Like no matter how how many hours we spend and how many rocks we overturn, and how diligent you can be about answering the unanswerable questions. You know, it's it is not a failure if you don't satisfy your own hopes and dreams as to what really is going on in a

situation. You know, people start rooting for outcomes. That's true. Yeah, absolutely, And I think that that this was a really like to be honest, like, if you want a fairly enjoyable I don't know, three and a half four hour oral history of the last days of w CW, watch the Vice Show. It's pretty good, like I mean in that regard, you know, and I think that the thing is is that it also but there are limits of oral history too, Like everybody there has an agenda.

There's only so many as you know, was gone over over and over again in through your interviews. There's only so many minutes that they can cut together, you know, how long long as nash on that you're seventeen minutes and most, which is a lot by the way, if you're if you're you know, over three and a half hours. But it's like we're not gonna get not enough, of course you're not, you know, like, but I will say with that said, and I know it's like everybody accuses

me constantly of sort of kissing your guys ass. This is not this is not hard. Let's do it well. But look, there is the death

of w CW is in the archives. You can go to I dis I did over the as the this you know developed or went over the last few weeks, I've been listening to all the WCW episodes from basically Hogan on in order and if once you get past starkad ninety seven and like how the nWo should have ended and all the stuff that you guys did there, once you get into ninety eight, you can get a pretty good sense of how WCW died totally by one. And you guys are trying and look, advice,

advice can't do this. This is like hours and hours and hundreds of hours of podcasting right to try and triangulate all these different sources, all the lies that these people have told and be like, all right, well here you're saying this, But here you're saying this, and now you're saying that Meltzer's an idiot. But here you're talking to Meltzer and giving him your whole plan.

So which is it? You know what I mean? Like, you guys are triangulating all this stuff, and I think Greed, funnily enough, really actually brought some conclusions that I had not I you know, I had not thought of before into the light. I e. I think that WCW, the entity died, not the television show Nitro. That's different. The ENTITYWW died in those last two months when Eric could not communicate to the people at Turner that he had to deal with that he had an actual plan to

relaunch this show. I think that that was the where that was, honestly, the final death knell happens between January when they signed that agreement in March when they're like, holy shit, I don't think this guy has a plan and I don't necessarily trust that there's enough money here for them to keep this going. And as part of this deal, part of the insanity of this deal, we are giving over to this company ten years of guaranteed programming on

Wednesday Night that has nothing. By the way, that that contract did not specify wrestling. They could put anything they wanted there. That's what Brian Dala said. Yep. Yeah, So if that dies, if WCW dies in two years and Badal could be like, hey, we're gonna put this thing that we're developing, this you got to put it on. I mean, he could have done whatever he wanted till twenty eleven, you know what I

mean. So I think that when you put it in that context, and that was really done with greed, Like I think that you guys really got even more than the last night. There was other stuff that came out and greed and sort of the interviews around the last episode and stuff where I was like, oh, that's interesting that the entity itself and I'm not this is not really blaming Bischoff. It's like, this is just but I just don't think. I think, honestly, the level that Bischoff is put on is

that he was actually a competitor to Vince mcmam. And we can make fun like Vince was not a competitor to Ted Turner, that joke that like he was like competing with Turner, but he also was not competing with Eric. He wasn't. Eric was a show runner of a show that was fairly successful for three years and then was not successful in his last year as the showrunner

of the show. Like most show in the history of television, right exactly, And if you'd taken into Accounty show, every show that got canceled but was a hit at one point has the exact same story. That's WW It's

no different than television, Joe, exactly, every television show. I don't understand why wcw' and I've said that is not treated as a wholly owned television production company by Turner Vince McMahon's WWE, which he I think Vince understood from nineteen eighty five on, from after the MTV debacle and trying to find and then when he makes the deal with NBC and stuff, I think that he understood that at its heart, yes, he was a wrestling company, sure,

and he had the merchandise and house shows, et cetera. But at its heart, when he went national, he was an independent television production company and he was selling his television show. And to this day, to this even though they are now you know, owned by different a different ents, t they are selling their television property. And yeah, the money's different. I e. Now all their money is guaranteed money, and back then they

weren't really getting paid a lot of money to produce the television show. They were, you know, doing the fifty to fifty deal with advertising, et cetera. But in the end, that's what Vince understood and Eric never did period. And I think that that's the real story here, is that these are just television companies. They're different, and that's it. Like I mean, it sounds like I know that we want to make wrestling. That sound

like wrestling is different. But in the end, it's from an executive standpoint, and I believe me, I've felt with a lot of television executives. I don't exactly love a lot of them. However, with that said,

I can understand where they are coming from here. In every way, there is no world where you could possibly argue the WCW should have been on the air past nineteen ninety three, and then when it was saved by Turner, fine, But when there's Turner's not there and so you don't have an executive who's in your corner, there's no world where you can keep WCW on the air legitimately into two thousand. You just can't. The ratings are really falling

off and there's no money there. And I think that part of my issue with all this is it comes back to like two things. It's like and and sort of howes cable television worked, I think is like an important thing to understand in nineties television. Nineties cable television, obviously, commercials were still the most important way selling. Advertising was still the number one way in which

these channels made money. And so that's where you get the comments about the demo and all that BS and the and hey, the demo absolutely mattered. Then. It doesn't matter as much as it does now, but it did matter a tremendous amount then for sure. And the demo they were getting the demo fairly well. However, if you look at when WWF was getting super hot, well, who was their main advertisers. Let's say Snickers, the Stride, step ware, d Yeah, these types of things. It wasn't,

you know, it wasn't. They were not getting high end luxury items cars, mid level clothing like mall clothing at the time, Gap and Anna Republic, et cetera, Old Navy even they weren't getting those orange juice, Like orange juice is huge, Like orange juice is considered a luxury item. So if you can get orange juice to advertise in your you know, to buy thirty seconds during your show, that's considered a good thing. Well, to be fair, I mean, Kevinak told us this, they did try

to get oj that's true. But the with that, like, but the other way that they made money and how they started making a lot of money and what became the most important thing by the time, like TNA was around, was carriage fees. So yes, that's paying you to have their exactly to be able to add Yeah, and that's where the rating whatever it is, how many people are watching is the only thing that matters. I e. If three million people are watching and three million of them are over fifty

five, they don't care. They're paying more for that because they want to know that those people will remain subscribed to cable and that's really all it.

So that's you know, they pronounce path the day there is cable company, right, So in other words, like you know that that's why in the seventies eighties, Turner's one of them, there were these multimillionaires made in local cable because there's this proposition all of a sudden where it's like, wait a minute, yeah, we do have to pay TNT a carriage fee to be able to carry their signal, but we can charge people so much more for

cable than we have to pay. Yes, yes, yes, sorry, And you start bundling all that together and giving people no choice but to buy the whole bundle. If you want an ESPN, you need a million other channels you're never gonna watch, And people, for their whole lives have wondered, why the fuck do I have all these channels that I don't want and

why that's why carriage fees, carriage fees, carriage fees. Everyone wants a taste, and it's like, you know they're carriage fees exploded in the two thousands, Like that's really and that's why you got like you went from having sixty seventy eighty channels in nineteen ninety nine to five hundred channels by two thousand and six because cable companilies were just willing to pay anybody that put content together.

Because you could argue that even if it's an extremely limited audience, it's the kind of audience that will stay subscribed to cable and so let's to matter. And again that's to this day when people will be like, oh, the majority of the people that watch Raw fifty years old or fifty five, whatever it is, it does not matter to them from a carriage for USA. For the reason why USA was like, oh fuck, we're losing Raw while we're buying spacked out because to them it's worth it because they could not

lose wrestling. That's really one of the few things left that people watch on USA on traditional on traditional cable consistently and therefore and they can still get their carriage fee, which has been cut in half. I mean even you know all the whenever you don't have a channel, all of a sudden, it's a it's a negotiation about carriage fees. Right when you see the Crawler.

When you see the Crawler, like DirecTV is going to stop carrying this local affiliate, or you're not going to be able to see the NFL this year, that's all that is. That's we want to pay we want to pay less. The cable company wants to pay the provider less than they used to for the programming, and the person who provides the programming has to tell themselves that it's worth as much, if not more than it ever has been worth.

So they go to the mat every time, and they always make up in the end, because the cable company or the satellite company is going to lose a hell of a lot more if they actually don't carry the NFL, for instance, or actually don't carry fuck your local news. So and the content provider knows that. So it's just a game of chicken, you know, it's just like where's this going to come out in the wash? We both have to pretend we can't afford it. We both have to pretend we're

insulted by the offer. We both have to mobilize the customer to get all paranoid and scared that they're going to lose this channel. But in the end, you're going to lose a whole hell of a lot more if you actually

effectuate the severing of that tie. Then if you have been tripped again, indeed, yes, and with that like a good example, that is like Verizon dropped Access TV, so like t and that's why they've and a lot of channels are a lot of cable priders, I should say, did if I've dropped Access TV over the last two years, and that's why they've thrown TNA onto the app, like their weekly show is now on the app, in part because Access TV highest rating thing was in fact, what was New

Japan really, but it was wrestling that they couldn't sell adverts off of TNA and New Japan that we're getting one hundred and fifty thou two hundred thousand viewers that well, and they wanted twenty eight cents per customer, and Verizon was like, we'll give you twenty two cents per customer, and they were like, no, no, we can't know twenty eight and they were like, no, that's our final offer. And in fact, because you didn't take

it, will just drop you. And no one is complaining that they don't have Access TV because they're like, Okay, what do I lose here? I lose some movies that I can now get on demand all the time, and I lose you know, wrestling, and that's about it, you know what I mean. So if I'm not in one, not one of the

very few. And that's why where from a carriage fee standpoint, your total number matters a lot, and then wrestling it matters tremendously because in the end, no matter how many times, like they would talk about like Raw or sorry SmackDown, I should say one Friday nights often for Fox won the demo won the total viewership, et cetera. If they wasn't sports on, they

pretty much were winning that. However, they got canceled. Let's be find as you said the last time, actually, Jack, they got canceled. They didn't get you know, oh no they're dropped. No, no,

they got canceled. They got canceled because they because Fox doesn't get any carriage fees and cannot sell advertising based And it's not just that people don't watch other stuff that watch wrestling, and they don't get carriage fees because they're a network broadcast over their network, right their network exactly their network out broadcast over the air, so they can't get carriage fees for it. So to be honest, like the day they would talk about how wins the Backdown was on Fox

Sports one, the number would be pretty bad. In fact, aw was beating them a lot of times when it would go to Fox Sports one. However, the carriage fee, they would get a carriage fee for that week that they covered it, and because Fox Sport which one, didn't have anything that seven hundred thousand people were watching, they would argue that if we put it on four times a year, you got to give us a bump of this amount of sense because it is sense per customer to have that four times

a year, and we'll give it to you. We'll guarantee you four times a year that if you you know, if you give us three more cents per customer, and they did because Fox Sports one has a few other things that people actually watch, and one night every three months they'll have wrestling that'll jump up to seven hundred thousand people. So it's like so it's a real and so cable system can say, okay, like, well, we'll pay Fox Sports one three cents for every customer that subscribes to us, subscribes to

cable through us. And part of what makes that worth it is that four times a year, the people that have us for cable are going to be able to watch SmackDown. That's part right, And they'll come over to us, and they'll come over to us, they'll remember the Fox Sports and what they'll do, if you notice, they'll do a lot of local they'll do a lot of they'll do a lot of advertising for whatever they actually have on their network during those nights. They're not going to sell it. It's not

worth it to them to sell. It's always been the Achilles heel of wrestling. The Achilles heel of wrestling is that even if it's the top rated show on cable, which it was through the Attitude era and those salad days of wcws talked about in the documentary, even if they're top on cable, they

were made number one on cable with the USA and Raw. They get to your point in the tail end there or several of Fridays where there was no competing sports, they could be the number one show on Friday night primetime and all of television, all television. You can advertise every single show on Fox that you have during SmackDown, you can advertise every single show burn notice all that shit on USA during Raw wrestling. Fans don't give a fuck about these

shows. They don't give a fuck. It's not like selling Seinfeld during NFL and it makes it worth the bajillion dollars you have to pay the NFL or whoever the huge network hits over the years have been sold off of sports exactly. Yeah, And I think that that's and so in this period that we're

talking about, right at the end of WCW's commercials were still adverts. Selling average was still the most important part for cable for all television, but with cable two carriage fees had not exploded as they did a few years later they were about to. And I think that's there's a couple of things that I think when you look at the number that WCW sold for one of the things to remember that people kind of gloss over. They're like, how could it

go for like nothing? It's like, well, let's try to remember what people were buying at that moment. They're like, oh, but they were buying all the IP. Vince had bought up all this other IP before and he couldn't take any advantage of it. And there was no way that you could start a WCW channel in two thousand or two thousand and one and think that anyone was going to watch the old stuff. They weren't go look at time they would have the best of WTW on. During those periods, no

one watched. They got some of the worst ratings in cable and so there was no way to kind of like monetize that stuff. And we're at a point two. This is a little bit off track, but it ties into the same thing where yes, DVDs are about to explode, but they aren't exploding in March of two thousand and one. The highest DVD selling DVD player in two thousand and one is the PlayStation and you can't get your hand the

PlayStation two. You can't get your hands on a PlayStation two. If you remember, I'm sure you guys remember, at that time was very difficult to find PlayStation two's that was considered not only the best DVD player at that moment that you could buy commercial DVD player, it was also the hardest to get a hands of, and it was the most it was the most installer base.

DVDs don't explode until two thousand and three. They peak in two thousand and four and sort of plateau over the next course in the next five years where they're selling an unbelievable amount, but until about the end of two thousand and eight, Just like video business, it's exactly exact trajectory and you can't so no one at WCW or at Turner, at that moment is going to be like, oh, yeah, we got to hold onto the IP because eventually we're gonna be able to sell these you know, old WCW shows for

nine dollars a pop or twenty dollars a pop if it's a Star Kade or whatever, and people are gonna buy it. They can't. They're not thinking in that way, like, oh, the IP itself was like you'll hear like Flair be like I would have gotten five million dollars together, and what would you have bought? You would have bought nothing. No one had any interest in what they were Like, there weren't. I don't think there's this huge line of buyers for this entity. At that point. It was really

really really damaged goods. And you could say it was damaged goods because of the Turner exact. I'm fine with that, but at least admit that the number of the time, while still probably really too low, probably wasn't that low compared to everything else at that time, because it was very hard to figure out who the hell was gonna monetize this because no one What were you gonna do? Were you to sell figures based on when you had no show?

What were you gonna do. There was nothing to it. So I think that that's like another issue that goes along with this, like the moment. With this moment, there was just no You couldn't sell advertising on it. And at that point the numbers had dropped so much that the carriage fees weren't worth anything. You couldn't go so turn then think of Turner versus USA.

Even T and T had first run movies and as you were pointing out when you were doing the ratings of their first run movies on Turner did really well, extremely well. People for you know, think of it is like this way is like DVDs were the time when people started really buying huge collections of movies, right, I mean I don't know. I probably owned a bunch of VHS's, but not like twenty movies on VHS, thirty movies. I didn't own like hundreds of DVDs, which eventually I did. That wasn't

a thing. So you were still rental market and if you weren't renting the movie, you were waiting until it came out on TV. And Turner had stuff that the networks weren't showing. They were literally showing the first time that you could see it besides PayTV, HBO, et cetera was on Turner, so they had that, and they also had the MBA, which was doing

worse ratings admittedly game to game than Nitro, but a hotter property. During the Jordan years, they could they could sell much higher end advertising off of And yeah, they could go and get a good carriage fee based on just being in business with what at that point was Michael Jordan. That was who. They weren't in business with David Stern or whatever they were in business. They could argue that they were in business with Michael Jordan, who was very,

very hot. So those they already they had really good programming that was not WCW. So the idea that they were like, Okay, there's this entity that we have and we've owned it, it's just a it's just another show to them, and and the show can be canceled. And so yeah, selling w CW is a different matter for sure, and who they sold

it to different matter for sure. And Yeah, as a wrestling fan or whatever, I would have loved had WCW to continue to exist in some form or come back in some form, not under Vince's ownership, because you know, not under the monopoly. However, looking at it from a television business standpoint, at that point, there's no world that you could justify keeping it just none. It just didn't There was no value in it at all,

and there hadn't been for a while. And I think two of the things that like, really I'm you know, and please feel free to cut me off at any time. But you know, two of the things that really like frustrated me were just these ideas that it was like, creative, you know, is subjective. It's like, no, shit, creative is subjective. Of course, it's subjective, like, but the creative was not suggest like I think the outcome, the outcome is objective. Did anyone give a

shit? Did anyone give a shit? No? No, No one gave

a shit about your angles. They Randon Tartakoff, who ran NBC in the eighties and who was always annoyed about Saturday Night's made event at a I saw this recently that a USC before he passed away, he was at a USC, you know, giving a USC talk and they were saying, oh, you know, while you had all these hot hip shows, you were doing Saved by the Bell, and you were doing Saturday Nights made event and all this stuff, and he was like, hey, you know, he's like

look, he's like hey, in the end, the number is the number. And that's what he was saying, is that as long as the Saturday Night's made event, as long as saved by the Bell, as long as the shows that he didn't necessarily love on his network were hot, we're getting we're drawing the number to justify them. They stayed on the air period. It didn't matter whether he liked them or not. That's why that's why ww was so strong in the portfolio at a time when they had no support in

the corporate chain. Yet you know, Nitro just kept going, Yeah, Bretziegel got it line. They played that clip of him on c Span or whatever talking, you know, really defending wrestling in front of an audience or an auditorium or whatever, of laughing television executives laughing at him because he's he has no choice but to position wrestling favorably, because without those those numbers at that time, he ain't shit, you know, he ain't shit in cable

JP. It reminds me a little bit of other shows where it's like, you know, Seagull decries on on the series. You know how how pathological the wrestlers are and how sort of unmanageable the cast of characters there were WCW were from a you know, it almost like a talent relations standpoint. But that's every TV show, right. It becomes a hit, and eventually the stars become total head cases at the negotiating table. It's yeah, it's no

different. I mean, you know, there are so few there are so few, uh, I mean, because it comes around, here's the thing, it's such a it's funny. I'm actually I'm actually reading a significant amount about this actually in preparation for next cinemat believe it or not, because it all comes down to value and how somebody perceives their own value versus how somebody

else, you know. And and then but but the problem is it becomes a clusterfuck because then you know, the producers want to want to do the power play, or the executives want to do a power play, and like, you know what, I can fucking do this show with nobody. You know, I don't have to have you on there. They know that they know they know better, and try it again, and they try it again with with complete unknowns. Who nobody cares about. And then it's a fucking

it's a ship show, KUEEWI, there you go, shit show. Nobody knows Ellen. Ellen Poppio has ABC by the balls. It's simple. You're not going to replace her and still have Grays and Abby You shut the fuck no. I mean that's the thing, like you you there comes that moment where where an actor or performer or whatever realizes their worth and does the producer executive whoever recognize and and agree that that worth is is substantiated? Like you

know what, it's it all comes down to Hogan versus Vince. Every single fucking, every single fucking you know, any any kind of of of of of battle between you know, between performer or and and executive comes down to who created who? Did Hogan create Vince or did Vince create Hogan? You know that kind of tht. Jay Z once said, everyone's saying they made me, Okay, then make another me. That's right. If that's the

case, where's the next one? Yeah? And you guys, you know point out really well throughout the thing is, it's so much of what people wanted to see. And again, I give Bishoff's a lot of credit for that was Hogan they wanted after a time where they obviously in ninety four ninety five didn't necessarily want to see Hogan. Hogan's kind of having a breakdown over the fact that they might not want to see Hogan anymore, but they also

don't really want to see wrestling. It's not like they want to see Brett. It's not like they want to see Nash, it's not like they want to see Sean. They don't want to They're out, and all of a sudden, Hogan turns heel and they want to see Hogan again. And it's not DX or Kent, Nash and Hall or all the other bss now given

as like, oh no, that's what was hot. No, no, no, what was hot was Hollywood Hulk Hogan, and he was hot through and then Sting kind of was hot as sort of the foil to him, and people were watching, and he was hot through ninety seven early into ninety eight, and then all of a sudden end of ninety seven early ninety eight, people started to look and there was someone else they wanted to see, Stone Cold, Steve Austin. That's it. That was the star, and

Vince didn't have that for years. You guys have talked about it. JP's talked about it ad infinitum, trying to find where's the next Hog, Who's my next Hogan, what's the next Hogan? Whatever? From ninety two to ninety eight, Vince is essentially on this long, insane search for Hulk Hogan, and his Hulk Hogan is Steve Austin period and that became and in the end, what's what I find really interesting is that Siegel talks about how he's like, I asked them what's next? They didn't have an answer, and

they get so mad about this. I mean, that's the entire job. Every pitch that I'm in, every meeting that I've ever had, is like what else do you I could go in for one thing and they're like, what else do you have? Every day you have to ask, you have to be able to answer that, and you might really not know. I have pitched things on to pitch episodes of a show on the fly? Did I had note? Like, I was like, all right, whatever, I'm gonna just get it. Hopefully this is gonna be the dumbest thing that

anyone's heard. Sorry, that's like and you know, that's like, honestly, that's something that that I remember being taught in film school, Like at the very beginning, it's like, if you ever get a meeting for any kind of if you get a meeting to pitch one of your one of your ideas, make sure you get three more lined up to just back it up. And that's what it makes me like to like hearing that whole thing What's next, because that's exactly what you like. That's I mean, that's anything

on television, that's any creative idea. If you rest on the same thing forever, then you're fucked. You're not gonna you know, you need to have something else to build on. And especially once Siegel says Goldberg is what

was the next thing you better have? Like, if you're executive, he might be wrong, it doesn't matter he she They might be wrong, but if they tell you it's like the number one Like if you ever like hired you rewrites, they always tell you, well, all you gotta do is listen to what the execs says and verbatim right, exactly one idea that they have to the script does. If you're wondering how to get good grades in school, it's the same thing. Listen to that son of a bitch and

give it back to them. In their own words, they they they sacrificed a lot to be up there as a teacher, and the last thing they need is some punk bitch acting like they're smarter than them, even if they are. You have to make them feel like they have good ideas. It's that simple. And they keep saying, and this is and this is one of the most frustrating things that I've seen for twenty years now. Wrestling is different. Wrestling. It's bookers, not show. No, it's not.

It's not even if they do, even if I don't understand the business, it does not matter to them. They don't care. You're it's it's bottom line. Only if you're not delivering, it's over. I mean, they talk about how Bonnie Hammer basically had to beg to keep Raw on the air in the middle of ninety seven because they're like, well, this is kind of an expensive show now, and we think we can replace it for much

cheaper with a lot and it could cost us a lot less money. And she was basically like, no, no, no, we we're doing its transition. Until the transition happens, let's not let's keep you know, let's basically toe the line because she knew Barry Diller was coming who was loved wrestling, and that as soon as Barry Diller took over USA, they had protection. But there was basically they were almost off the air, like that's the thing is that people, but they end up blowing up a barrier going to

TNN. We didn't they end up having any blow up with him. Well long term yes, but at the time he comes in ninety eight. He comes in in ninety eight, which is a lot words, which is always like like I think Bishoff always like Chafe sedid it because he's like, well, Diller allowed basically took away standards and practices from them, like that's Diller, and it's like it is like, but USA has also had silk stalkings on guys. It's a totally different network. It's not TNT. Yeah,

like what know what you are? You can't you can't do what they can do. But it doesn't mean you can't have effective wrestling. You just did it. You just did it. Yeah, Yeah, it's yeah. I guess they think that WWF has to be very tame, But the fact of the matter is there was a lot of lude Steve Austin stuff going on when

the nWo is at its absolute hottest. You know, yeah, it's not like it's a direct line of like as soon as they started showing middle fingers and ultra violence and going really crazy leaning into Russo's direction that WCW lost overnight. It took a long time of beating that drum. It didn't have to do as much with the fact that it was Lewede. It had to do with the fact that it was being executed wonderfully for the moment. I mean it was it was you had, you had a concise, focused, focused

storyline that you know. That's that's what made it different. That's what made it. You know, you didn't have a million egos all, you know, trying to join the nWo and and and you know, belittle everything else. When you think about Sable, right, Okay, yes, her almost being naked on TV weekly worked, But what was Sable really about? Why was it more than just major guns coming out there trying to titillate It was her power mombing Mark Mayer at Wrestling at fourteen fully clothed or at least,

you know, not not not wearing revealing clothing because that that was. That was what you could tell yourself. This nudity or partial nudity was leading towards It was that fundamental, Like if it's not leading to a moment on a pay per view, it is not worth doing. It is not worth doing, or it doesn't it be a paper you just whatever you conceive in your

head is as the mega card, the supercard. Yeah, the craziest sex and violent stuff that Vince ever does is an O two O three and no one is fucking watching desperate bid to keep that edge, desperate yet desperate and you know he is. He's doing insanct and he's doing it. I mean the owner of the company is doing it. Is the is the you know, that's where we you know where you guys have so definitely gotten into his

id. But like it's it's like he that that stuff is not that was not why I think that's the thing is like it wasn't really like Russo and you know which kind of that that like was the reason why people were watching

it. Again, they had a huge star and despite all of his injuries and everything else and what he could do and what he and his limitations, they centered everything around Austin it's like and to the point where it's like, to this day, it's like, had they got basically Bishoff felt ass backwards into a huge star and I know, yeah, they didn't. They didn't have him lose. They didn't have him lose. I get it. I get it. For a long time they didn't, but eventually they did.

And once he lost because they like, you know, they built him up as he couldn't lose, and it was like a weird MMA style thing like Alvarez did a good job of kind of detailing it was it was over. They stopped building the company around Goldberg, and once you do that, it's over. Like basically, you can't you can't do it. Like I think, honestly, I think if Sean would have, if Sean doesn't get hurt and Sean's a problem as they're building the company around Austin in you know,

spring of ninety eight, I think that Vince would fire Sean. I think that that's where he was. I think he understood what the gravy train was and he was not getting off of it. I think Vince under like Hogan, didn't get off that gravy true, and he didn't look at Gift horse in the mouth, and that's very rare and wrestling, because you know, there's so money agendas, you're on, you're on the road, you're at

TV every week. It's so easy to get someone in your ear consistently to get you to second guess what's in front of you and lose track of you know, sticking with something that's working until it doesn't work anymore. You you almost preempt yourself. It's really tricky. It's hard to do. I know it's hard to do, but that's that's how you judge a great promoter from a substandard one. And when were down, Vince found the gold. Vince found the Vince found the beat to play and he played it. W Study

couldn't do it. Bescheff couldn't do it. No one over there could do it. After the initial pop worked, after the initial angle, Angle stayed it, they couldn't find anything else. They couldn't do it. And yeah, absolutely, And I think in the end, like Vince just understands how he understands the television business really, like, like to the point where I was thinking about it tonight beyond like because he's fucking psychopath and obviously a sick,

sick man. But for all of that, that guy should be in the Television Hall of Fame for sure. Yeah, that bullshit thing that exists. I mean, that guy has a He understood television and he understood how

to deal with all these executives. He dealt with Eversaw, he dealt with tarked Off, he dealt with Bonnie Hammer and Barry Diller, and he had these long relationships with these people and based a lot of them, you know, according to Dick ever Saw, they never had a deal, and like to the point where when they're putting the main event on the Friday night show in eighty eight de Andre show, the targetof's calling him being like, what's the deal? Like, what is your guy's deal? What do we pay

them? He's like, oh, it's a handshake. And he's like, you are on a handshake deal with the thing that's been on our network for three years. And Eversaw's like, yeah, you're a psych we can't do that. But the point being is that it's like Vince really got it. He got what he had to deliver, he got what they wanted. He understood how to deal with television executives. He understood how to speak their language, And I really think despite this so ironic, it's ironic. That's because

was supposed to be the guy they brought it. Yeah, he's supposed to be the guy they brought it up. Speak language, because it really became apparent to me in the Nitro book when it's detailed how Turner had all because I had always thought, I think a lot of you know, wrestling fans who like this kind of crap, always thought is that Bischoff had convinced Turner

to give him primetime. No, Turner gave him primetime. So in the end, Bischoff had no idea how to pitch for that type of thing, whereas McMahon, because he's an independent television company, had to pitch to get Raw on the air. He had to pitch to do it. And I understand that they had a show already, a prime time Raw is a different entity. It is a different thing, and he had to pitch and explain what it was going to be, what it was going to look like.

Am I presenting? What is this? And they had to be like, all right, I mean he's done, all right, And wrestling was not in a good place when he's putting Raw on the air, at all, and they believed in what Vince was selling. But I don't know in the end, after the nWo if anyone really believed what Eric was selling. And you have to be able to And I'm not saying, look this is I'm not saying that I could do it. I'm just saying, if you look, I was, you know, thinking about it. Like they basically had,

Eric was the showrunner and Sullivan was the head writer. The first like sort of two years of if you take the booker and the promoter, all the bs, forget that, let's just talk in TV terms. Very quickly Bishoff and Sullivan were the show runner and head writer, and then it was ninety seven. It seems like Bischoff was a performer, the showrunner and the head writer for like the whole year. After Sullivan you know, goes home with all the drug shit, and then Eric of course burns out. Of

course you're going to and slowly but surely starts relying on Nash. And somehow, somehow, Kevin Nash becomes the showrunner of a cable television show, What every He watched a lot of Larry Sanders, he watched, he watched Larry Sanders show. He did so he really I think he really was like, oh, this isn't hard. I think that I think that he really thought that he could do this, and he become and for about eight months he

is running that show. He's running the show, and for a little while it seems that maybe Sullivan was maybe the head writer, but mostly I think Ash was the writer of the show, was the showrunner. So he's talking two executives. Kevin Nash think of long haired nineteen ninety nine Kevin Nash in meetings with T and T executives, not Bischoff. Kevin Nash. Bischoff is in Paris. This is Kevin Nash, okay, And when Bischoff comes back and he has gray hair, so he is not a person who's going to

go in and do very well in Atlanta period. It's is not It's all true, you know. I think one evolution that's important to point out, and Dick Cheetam has talked about this, is that before the Turner Time Warner merger posed to the a Well Time Warner merger, there was a Turner Sports division and it was accounted for alongside WCW was alongside the Braves and along with

the sports it was in the sports division. Yeah, right, and so in Jim Hurts era and Kip Fry's era before Bischoff took over, really Watts, there seemed to be a corporate mentality that wrestlers contracts are akin to professional baseball players contracts, and we respect this sort of like guaranteed money structure. And what happens is I think after that Turner Time Warner merger, I think it was ninety eight. I think it was ninety six. Yeah, whatever

the hell, Time Warner. Yeah, suddenly it starts to become entertainment. It starts to become Brad Siegel's remit. It starts to become why wrestling if not movies. Whereas before when it was in Turner Sports and before the Time Warner merger, there wasn't a consideration of putting those two in the same category. It wasn't do we do we put Wizard of Oz on instead of the Braves. No, we we have our sports and that we have our movies. And all of a sudden, all of a sudden that you know,

there's a couple of changeovers. Harvey Schiller leaves, there's that that Bill Bush into Regnum. You know, for a lot of the time in terms of like christening Bischoff is the guy you know, we know uh that that there was a lot of different moving chairs and people trying to position it around the time Bischoff got the job, But it was Bill Shaw really who said, all right, like, we're gonna we're gonna lean into making this a television

show. We're gonna lean into speaking the language of Turner television and entertainment instead of or sports. And all of a sudden, the hiring of Bischoff makes sense. But he worked himself and reshoot because he took this thing that was kind of not being held to an entertainment standard and more of a sports standard and turned it into just another television show. And I think what people to cry about w W used to buy, especially longtime fans like Chris Zellner who

we talked about, is that it wasn't another television show. To them, It was a sport. It was something that had a different reason to exist and fought for different economics than scripted television did. But you know, Bischoff gets the job because he's pushing it more in the direction of thinking about it

like not producing a scripted television show. Although of course it was, but more of like a shiny floor game show like production with a closed set, and like, you know, the economics of that and the mentality of that, and the psychology of that, and the commercialism of that, and that ended up being I think kind of their undoing because all of a sudden they're being held to the same standard as any other show that comes and goes, as opposed to you know, the Hawks don't come and go, the Braves

don't come and go. Perhaps they go to another station, but you don't cancel them in the same way you lose them, whereas you cancel WCW. Yeah, and once and once you I think that the big and it is it's one of those things where it's like a chicken or the egg thing of like, there's no question they are not They can't be WCW as we know it, or the Nitro era of WCW without haulk Hogan, No, no question. However, halk Hogan's contract, as you guys have talked about in

detail, is outside of the purview of the wrestling it is. It's with Turner Entertainment. So the biggest star actually has a movie star style contract, including the fact that he had movies that they have to put on, yes, that don't get any ratings by the way, and that they can't sell any app based So there, you know, so all of a sudden he isn't there. They are by giving Hogan that deal, they have put them

sell into the eyes of the entertainment business. Part of this, and that in the nineties was a much more competitive and hardcore at Like, it's funny because Tony Kahan this weekend wants to be compared to sports. Why does he want to be conspared to sports? Because his demo then it matters for sports in a different way that would matter for entertainment entertainment. He's killing it in

the demo, but in sports he'll get more money back. Then you want it to be in the entertainment group because you get more money for your show. But and yeah, I know they weren't spent, they weren't given enough for the show. They weren't they were a wholly owned company. They didn't view it that they were paying them in the same amount of money to put on the show and to have that roster. They didn't view it that way.

But like they put themselves. Bishoff put himself in position to win by dealing with Hogan and to lose by not being able to continue to have like you had to generate such high ratings, such high revenue that it became, you know, a near impossibility, and so it's like, you know, like to keep to keep that up on that level. And then once you kind of, once it's clear that Hogan might not be the thing anymore,

you kind of have to drop Hogan. But that was an anathma. So I think it's like, you know, you know, ninety nine, maybe the thing is like you don't get rid of Russo, or you don't bring in Russo at all, you get rid of Hogan. That's a hard thing to do. But you hand much in the same way of like the idea that Vince might have been been handing off a bit of a poison pill in

a in a disgruntled Brett Hart to them. Maybe you hand off a disgruntled n you know, hul Cogan to Vince and see if he can do anything. Were there in that direction. But I think that's the point is without Hogan, bishof has no idea what to do. That's not it's not only anathema, it's like, actually, what what what do you mean, Like, how did what do you mean a WCW without a whole Cogan? Yeah?

Right, yeah, you know what it becomes. It becomes that word salad from that magazine and of we read in the game where it's these like broad sweeping platitudes where it's like you can sink your teeth and nothing. He's saying about what this w CW is going to be, what it's going to look and feel like, because it's just like, yeah, I wouldn't just put Hogan. They had a handshake deal with like that's the other day they had it, Like you said, they had a handshake deal with the Vegas

venue. They didn't even have a Vegas But this is this show has put to launch in seven weeks. Your ta telling Jamie Kellner that he doesn't know where he's shooting, where they're shooting the show, he'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about? No, cancel it every now? I would think, so are you out of your minds? Like they didn't have they didn't have anything. They had nothing. He did not have. He could not even tell them whether Hulk Hogan was going to be there. I

don't know if that's just maybe he's just bullshitting the magazine. I don't know, but it sounded to me like he was, like, I think Hulk's going to be there, but I'm not positive. I think they had to reset all the contracts. Yeah, yeah, I think they had to. I don't think they could really sign anybody for sure until that deal has to

consummated and they knew what the number was. Yeah, these guys are sitting home collecting checks whether if not working, So you have to come to them with checks before they start working, and that will be and you have to pay them exactly, and you have to pay them these absurd things because most of them are going to sit at home as opposed. And yeah, they were gonna get they weren't. I don't think that Bishal was going to bring

you know, Nash back. Maybe it would have, but I don't know at that number definite was and I don't think he was going to bring all back. Just the number was just too insane, Like I don't I really think he couldn't afford it. But you know, obviously he had to have at least like sort of a six pack or eight pack of guys that he could depend on for the early big bang ratings because it's like, there's no

there's no way to do that. And so that's why I think in part that that ending part of like the what why w CW died is that the IP really wasn't worth that much at that moment, and they weren't really sure that he could deliver, and W didn't mean anymore than calling it World Ride Wrestling All Stars or TNA didn't mean more than that at that point that WW. And here's here's the thing, right JP, we talk about this and

people always pretend not to notice it. It wasn't WCW that blew up as the nWo, right, It got to the point that they were going to fucking rename Nitro n W Nitro until they actually went ahead and did it, and it was such a goddamn ratings disaster that they never floated the idea again of having an nWo show in a WCW show. But Bischoff was so taken and so smitten with the nWo as the calling card for the whole thing that he totally whiffed on the psychology of the only you know, WW needing to

come back was the thing. And because they never did, the loyalty to those three letters meant nothing, right, because that's the thing, you know, if if, if, if they actually had booked a strong WCW against the nWo, you know, WSW might have actually meant something. But because they did everything in the heart and minds of the actual decision makers, Bischoff didn't know. WSW didn't mean something to him. nWo is his baby,

not WW. That's my my feeling on it. You know, I think I thought the other day about the Luger title win in the Palace barber Hills, August nineteen ninety seven, when he puts Hogan in the rack. Yeah, that's the sting finish right there. Everyone runs in the ring w CW. Hoist's the guy who finally thrown Hogan And don't forget you know, Luger. The nWo tries to run in before Luger puts him in the rack and he throws Hall over the ropes and he knocks Nash out of the ring.

It's so perfect. And they did that and it undid it, and it's like they can't they they're not going to move on. They don't see it. They don't see this as the pivot point. They don't get the pivot point. It would it would be like Austin beating Shawn Michaels at Wrestling May fourteen and then losing the title in May uh and then never getting it back. I know he lost it to Caine for a day, but his rain

actually stopping. Yes, yea within two months, absolutely so, and then never yeah, and then basically dorm it, you know, and acting like it's so funny. You know, it's so funny too, because and and and Luger was so fucking over as a baby face. Yeah, that's how hot the program was. That Luger himself was like the fucking yep, the Messiah at that moment. That that's how hot. Dethroning the nWo as a concept was that it made Luger matter more than I think he ever mattered in

his whole career. Agreed and agreed and maybe matter more than Sting at that point, which is a little bit worrying. But again Bischoff holding back, like you do wonder whether it should have been, like you can like if you're really he's like, okay, when he first talks about the nWo, he's like, oh, I think we can run this for six months. I wonder if we can run it for and then all of a sudden it's like, well, it never is gonna end. By early ninety seven,

it's like, well, no, we can run this forever. But you do wonder. It's like, should it have been Sting that comes back at Bachel's the Beach ninety seven, puts Hogan in the rack and ends it essentially there, and then they have this run like you guys have talked about before. I always thought it was really brilliant where it's sort of like everybody else who's in the nWo gets kind of kicked out. It's just those three guys, and maybe it's the three guys versus the original three guys of Macho,

Luger and Sting at star K ninety eight seven. And then that's the final end of it, right, and then you take them off TV for a time, and so it's not it so do you It only goes for like a year and a half even at that point, like I know that it just but but once you get into a series thing where you're splitting the nWo into factions that like, and so it's NW wolf Pack versus nWo Black and White and it's w CW and the nWo present. That's that's that's a guy,

I'm sorry, whose storytelling acumen is gone. He doesn't have it anymore. And so that a story of those logos. There's a reason I've spent it all this time talking about the logo changer. And that's a really good. One time I never really picked up on was when they switched from the WW logo to the WW slash nWo. That was that just reeked of desperation. That really ill focus. Yeah, it was like the storytelling and going

and to be honest, so he takes a break. But the thing is is that and this is where you know, you can definitely blame the execs. The execs had no idea who to get to run that show, and so they you know, Bishoff recommends Nash, So Nash is running it. That doesn't work. Bishoff comes back for a little bit. They're like to Eric go home, and then all of a sudden, you know, they

bring in Russo. Russo cannot run a show obviously. You know, there's many, so many details, including the great interview you guys did the other day which detail how nuts Russo, what really was Russo should not be a show runner. Maybe can be a head writer, but he should not be a showrunner. They did that, they get rid of Russo, they try, you know, they're like, Okay, let's get Eric back so he can run the show and Russo can be the head writer. Maybe that'll work,

doesn't They don't? You know, they have the weird Sullivan running the show over two months. That's pure insanity. They obviously did not care at that point about anything that was going on. And yeah, so like the execs had no clue as to what to do with it, and that's got Yeah, they never wanted it, et cetera. But to be honest, I mean, that's so many times, Like there's been so many shows that have had two good seasons and died. Didn't it be fair to WCW.

Even the craziness of network TV back then, Network TV at its height. I mean, I remember the first season of the OC famously did twenty seven episodes. Twenty seven episodes, so insane. I still can't get over it. That's a lot they do. How they get away with that? They did basically specials and all this. Yeah, they it's one of the longest season, Like one season runs it's a one season run that harkens back to like the you know, the sixties essentially, and so they did twenty seven

in the first and then they were done. They essentially had no good storylines for the rest of the time that that show was on the air. But WCW two Be Fair has to do fifty two of those. I get it, Like they have to do they're doing two super long seasons or three traditionals now shows or eight episodes, so you're you know, that's like it's like six seasons of TV in one, you know, in one year of wrestling.

I get it. I get that. I don't know. I'm not saying that it's easy to do. I'm not saying again, that's not a knock on any of these guys. However, it is unfortunately your job, and especially once WCW gets very expensive to run, it's very easy to replace because it's just you can't draw the revenue in because it's expensive. Like if once you're given two hundred and fifty thousand dollars contracts out like there you know nothing, and then you know, the big guys are making a tremendous amount

of money. All bets are off you know what I mean, Like, it's just it's a very expensive you know, when you start to live, they're like, uh, what's going on? Like this, how much is this thing that's costing us? Yeah, it's time, but what's what's the number? And then yeah, okay, O get three point one? Still good whatever whatever, it wasn't drawing at that point, it's it's drawing under three point hs. Then you know, uh, thunders drawing under twos.

There's no money in it. There's just not And then you can't rely on the carriage fee because the number is having less and less and less, so you can't even justify it with that. And that's it's very easy to see how Nitro got canceled. It's very easy to see how Thunder obviously got canceled. Yes, I admit it's harder to see how WCW got sold and gone.

But again it's it was, Yeah, there's a television product. It's just because a television product, there's no payview revenue to speak of year over year, there's no live gate to speak of year over year, and that's what people are thinking is still salvageable at the end. They still think there's a WCW live arena business and a pay per view business that should carry on longer than the television show dujore because wrestling lasts so long based on those revenue

models. But WW made the intentional choice we are not going it didn't work underheard, and they said, fuck it, we're not going to count on live event ticket sales as our primary bread and butteron And that's why only Anderston never worked in that organization, because that's the only pro wrestling structure he really understood. He didn't have any idea how to lean into the economics of television

that tastes the mentality of people who run and spend money in television. And then when they did that, what do you know, they ended up in a category with every other show that got canceled. And we think about fondly now, you know, twenty years later or thirty years later, whoever min numbingly far away it's been. But we look back, we say, yeah, that was a hit television show, and that's what it was. We remember the ties. But Tom is, please go ahead bring us home.

Yeah. My last thing was I would say that you guys first instincts were right about who killed WCW. Vince and Jim Hurt or sorry, Jim Murder. Jim Crockett, Jim Crockett, those are the two people. Jim Crockett selling it and did the sports idea of w CW one s and for all, despite what they wanted. And so when people think of like, oh, that's what I want, that's what they're really thinking of, and there

was only moments of that. That's next over the Turner owned one. They loved Crockett so much that they thought turn if they could just replicate it just right, it would be hot wrestling again. And I'm not sure I was trying Vince. Yeah, and Vince because Vince understood television business and that's what they were in. Everybody in there was competing in the television business. And that's it. Very good. Well, Tom, always a pleasure to have

you in the fold. Different flavor to a mailback episode. I love that we hit one of several uh triggers for you on this w CW topic. We're obliged to do it. We're obliged doing if everyone's talking about WCW, like you know, we've we've done too much work, Like we got to step forward and be like, hey, guys, we kind of try to answer all these questions already. What do you think about this? So, yeah, you've answered all the questions. It's all there. I tell I'm

telling people go back listen to the archive. I think the conclusion of actually the laps fan is that Nash killed WCW. And that might be true too, So there you go. It could be. There's probably some truth. Man. I don't think. I certainly think he contributed. He definitely contributed. Kevin Nash did not resuscitate w CW. We can. I'll settle on that that's true. All right, Tom, always great to hear from you, Pal, talk again, say so much. All right, Yeah,

it's Tom and the spot boss. That's right. So, I mean I think that's about enough on WCW. I don't know. Maybe more well, I don't know. They keep doing fucking specials like this. Yeah, we'll see. It brings a lot more up, you know, and people. Yeah, you know what's great about it is it's like it forces people to remember the little looks and cranny memories that contradict what people are saying today, like this idea that Stu Snyder was walking around saying he knew Fusian was never

going to get the deal, saying that to people. And now let me tell you, let me tell you everybody. Everybody knew a deal wasn't going to happen in hindsight. I think it's true. Yeah, everybody did. Do you know any Do you know how many deals that I knew weren't going to happen in hindsight? And I could tell everybody exactly. You know, everybody knew it now, but they didn't know it then and they don't want to admit it. Yeah, it's uh, there's probably more there. I

don't know. I think that Unfortunately that Jamie Callner has passed away. I think now everyone's going to blame him even more aggressively because he can't speak for himself and won't want to. I mean, he had the chance here, and you think you think he killed himself to avoid it this whole thing. No, I think maybe he said You think maybe he said, you know what, fuck it? Well, they're not saying Mabe did kill them.

Maybe he's like, you know what, this fucking I don't want anything to do with it, you know what, don't treat me, just let me go. I think that's why latched fans are particularly well equipped to handle a subject like this because we're not we're not trying to leave unsaid the idea that we're wrestling fans, right, and that's probably why w CW went away. And but we're not afraid to constantly keep in mind the place that society holds

us in. Yep, you know, you get it, you get you get vulnerable to tricking yourself into speaking the language of television and feeling like you know how things work based on studying wrestling. And that's fine and good, But you're a wrestling fan, and that's the consumer that they're trying to appeal to when they carry wrestling on their stations, and that's the consumer they cut bait with when they cancel wrestling. Yes, and that is not a hard

consumer to cut bait with. No, Okay, it's just not. We're we're easy in that regard and kill us. So we're breaking open the mail bag. And if you remember the last time we did this back in the spring, as we do sort of these sort of quarterly, our good pal Christian Hollister had done sort of an omnibus death toll for ten years of TLF. Remember that longest. Yes, yes, I do. It was long,

and that was a great note to end on. He had sent just a quick update shortly after or around the time we had gone on the air, and I'm sure this is longer now. Jimmie Kellner among them, but I don't remember exactly who twenty twenty four had included at the time. But we do have Virgil, we have only we have Paul Butchervershawan, we have Jackie Crockett, a Cabono, the Undertaker, Toby Keith, the country star who wants who superlex Jeff Jarrett in the first TNA show, and who actually

was in conversation for years about buying TNA. So yeah, that's always that's always playing out. But we want to turn now to in other words, Christian keeping coming, because that's just a great blood ole pulse check, you know, we do. I like that. I like to you know, it's good to remember. It's good to remember, uh, you know, how many people have died since we've started doing the show. That's important.

It's so it's so it puts everything in a perspective. When you really see that list laid bare, you're like, oh my god, like they're you know, I know, it's weird. It's not that they died. It's weird that when we started TLF, they were still alive and we were talking about them like they they still could have new things to say, you know, like the idea that when we started TLF that Roddy Piper might say something we hadn't heard him say before, or Dusty Rhose. Right, it's just

like it doesn't I don't know. It just seems like they've been dead the whole time. Yep, I know, I know, it's so true. It's it's quite some when we get people writing and saying, I spent all of my thirties with you, so let's see if we can spend if they

spend their forties with us, it hurts. It hurts. It hurts ship me and I spent our thirties, my thirties with us, and we love to get missives like this about kind of what it's like to watch the passage of time as a wrestling fan, and who unlike the canceled television shows of your like we talked to Tom about, you don't forget about the people that impacted you on the wrestling screen quite like you forget about people who were on

you know, some two season hit television show. Right, they're still around, They're still in the sauce. You still hear them, see them, So they're still on the sauce. Well, it's this next email from our pal Nate, or as it's written, some person in the great city of somewhere had the following relative to the great Missy Hyatt. You have it, Oh, I have it. Sorry, I didn't even hear it. Come in my bad greetings, code chairs. After a brief scare, I'm able

to confirm firsthand that Missy Hyadd continues to live among us. Let me explain. Having taken a shore excursion to Cosmel during the latest Jericho cruise, I had the question mark pleasure I suppose of being on a shuttle bus right behind Missy Hyatt and her goofy ass boyfriend. It's not nice. Well doesn't mean it's not true. I really wish I could have gotten a pick of this guy to send with this. The bf's wardrobe was actually so atrocious that it

took me several minutes to notice his ridiculous face. See what we've done, See what I've done. Specifically, it's all about faces, ruining faces, faces are completely completely. They determine, all right, not only you know, they determine if you go into this this section of society or this section of society. All right. Faces can break you, and they can make you. Yeah, they can make you, you know, but man, I mean more often than not they break you. So and the people wonder

why we're an audio only podcast. I know you damn right. He dressed like a guy who thought the fresh Prince of bel Air was ice cube. Oh God, that's quite a that. Wow. I can only imagine the hilarious levels of disdain it would spark from me. Uh, Anyway, that's not the point. First of all, Ms Hyatt, who insisted on wearing high heels to the beach, fell down almost immediately upon reaching the resort. As she stood there bleeding, you think she do you think she bladed herself?

You know, you can never make you think you think she tripped on purpose in order to get heat and color. Oh, it was summertime, so she got heat. And they're down in Mexico too, So on this summer mail bag. She's sitting there bleeding. She and her boyfriend, who I nicknamed Triple K. But why would that be I don't understand. Guy,

looks like it's like this all backwards. Just debated about how to clean and dress the wound without having to pay any of the stacks, and I don't know what they ended up doing, but eventually Missing had her shin wrapped

in gauze. I'm always so alarmed when I hear those stories slip out from wrestlers over the years about how maniacally they had to try to prevent an ambulance from picking them up because they couldn't afford the hospital stay, and how they wrestle with like broken bones and they just heal in place and because they just can't afford to go to the hospital. Like folks. Well, I mean there is, there is some you know, it depends. I mean my friend Mikey, you know, he's epileptic, and you know, I mean

it's different. It's not like a broken bone. He's not like also working on a job. But you know he doesn't like he he can't stand it when he when if people call an ambulance. Of course, no, I'm not saying I'm not finding fault with the person for not calling the ambulance.

I'm finding fault with a business that people can't afford to go to the hospital if they get hurt, and they get this engendered thing of like, you know, no matter what, even if you fall on a cruise, let's let's first the first thought is, let's k fabit so that you know, we don't have to there's no bill at the end of this thing. Well, what's ridiculous really is that you've got to You've got a business that where they can't afford to do that, and their job is to put their body

in harms way. Correct, That's what I think about any fucking Yeah, that totally is ridiculous when you think about any professional athlete that needs to you know that that puts there. And honestly, you know, in many ways there are not There aren't many athletes who put their their bodies and harms way like a professional wrestler does. No, you know, no even try to

preserve your body. You try to prevent it from writing. I mean, you know, but like, yeah, you guys doing you know one one one little slip off the top rope and you could end you could land on your head and break your neck. Yeah, I think you know, other sports it's like even MMA, it's like the spectator is satisfied if you go out there and and try to avoid injuring yourself. Yes, right, that the spectator expects that of the athlete and respects that from the athlete. That

they wow. Not only did they do it, they did it with such style that nobody even touched them. They didn't have to grit through it. They did it, you know, with a plumb and it wasn't it wasn't knockdown, drag out. They didn't get hurt or anything like that. And people respect that. They respect when a fighter can go out there and not have to they of course they respect it deeply. When he fights through hell and gets his face destroyed and still wins a fight or fights work, they

respect that too. But it's not like it's not likely no one's going to come to see you if you go out there and execute in a way where you make no damage or you take no offense on you and you score over and over again. Whereas in wrestling, no one satisfied unless you're putting yourself on the line. No one satisfied unless you're risking injury with everything you do, which is no one's going to come to a wrestling show if you wrestle a match like you would wrestle it if you got paid to win, as

opposed to pay to entertain. And so that's what's perverse about it. It's like a circus act, you know. It's like these guys and women can't make a living. No one's gonna come to see them unless they put their fucking lives on the line all the time and throw themselves willingly into into high risk scenarios as opposed to get paid to avoid them and still succeed. They get they get paid, they get paid less to put themselves in hum's way,

and when they get hurt, they can't think of anything else. But how do I avoid going to the hospital? Ye? What a business? How do I avoid paying a doctors? Brought a business? And what a society that It almost makes you wonder why, uh, why there's no union for these guys? You know? I wonder too about like wrestlers in the UK, you know, where where healthcare is is socialized and covered one hundred percent or Canada, do they have the same hang ups? I doubt it.

I mean, I'm sure there are some level of bill, but that's that's a place to practice this craft where if you get hurt, you can go to the hospital and not go fucking bankrupt. But that's it's a whole other story. But it's so it's so pointed in the wrestler lifestyle in particular that when when you said that, as this email just jumped right out to

me, that whole train of thought. Yep. Uh after lunch, I was walking back from the pool bar with uh drinks from my wife and me and I recognize a pair of volleyball sized implants as belong to miss You could recognize the implants. That's they're kind of small. Actually I would have figured they're more basketball signs. But okay, who was lying on a chair pool side? In her? This is also like a what a weird? She was weird lying on a chair? But she never that's stupid, that's that's

rude for her. Okay, but you're gonna say something else. This is again this is one of those weird things. It's kind of like, you know, in no other think about this too, in no other not that at least that I know of. In terms of the entertainment business, in terms of athletes and stuff, are there any public you know, outings like this for like it's you don't do this ship old timer's. You know, if they're not huge deals, they'll do autograph signings for like charity, they'll

do like card shows. But to like mingle with the fans for a week, that's more. That's more like comic con like ship. That's more like fan fantasy. That's that world more than it is the sports. But that very that doesn't even happen there. I don't know, you know, like you know, they do they do, have no, no totally, but like this is like this kind of interaction because this is not even convention. This is I bought a ticket on a cruise. Granted it's a wrestling cruise,

but and these people are here and we're together. We're together. I don't know how long these cruises last, these Jericho cruises, but like a week, like yeah, so, I mean you're you're like, it's so weird to me. It's so weird, like the the in both ways and in the amount of that that that that wrestling you know, wrestling wrestling stars or you know, feel comfortable being around this many people, and they don't, by the way, they don't, I mean just do it to get

their poems greased. I mean, look, she's but she's like, if you don't feel comfortable, and I'm sorry, you don't go laying in the let me let me get you know what, You're right, I don't mean they don't feel comfortable. I mean they they have to be noticed, sure, because if they're not noticed, they're nothing. That's what teach you. And so they do this because they have to get noticed, not because they want to be around these fans there, but there are still listen. But

the thing is, this is the thing. There are actors and athletes who need to get noticed. They ain't doing this shit, yep, like they're not. They're not because I mean because I mean, on a flip side, the fans for the most part, are wrestling fans are very they're respectful. You know, they don't necessarily you know, you know, you'd think in a in a situation like this with any other level of celebrities, there would be trouble going on. People would you know, bombard them with something.

Granted, I'm sure they'd have a ton of security as well, but I don't know. There's something about this that is such a unique, bizarre thing to me that really it's only wrestling in these, Yeah, like you'll you'll you'll stand in the buffet line with a wrestler and not say a word to them, and then you'll go like two three hours later and pay to get their autograph and they were just standing right there and you didn't say a word to them. You chatted with your friend about Oh my god, that's

whatever. That's true. The thing the one that I always can't I just because it was I think it was because of my first experience really in that type of environment, going to Shambourg and like seeing that. The one that I always think of, it's the one that always gets in my mind is just seeing animal walking around in his fucking face paint, Like there was something about that that really like this is this is weird and on a whole different

level, it's like this is bizarre. I know, like people talk about like why you're a wrestling fan, like do you think it's real? Like, oh, do you like the action? Do you like the acting? And it's like, yeah, I can explain why people watch wrestling in that way, but there's more to it. When these kind of things happen on the tail end of your career, when you're not even active in the ring anymore and you're still going to these places, Like what's that about? You

know? Yeah, I mean there's a deeper, deeper level of concern, you know that. I don't think people understand. I think and I think the fan is just this damage, just the performances. Listen, Yeah, because we're the ones who go to this shit, right, you know, we're the ones who are like, oh, they're gonna be around guys who haven't seen wrestle in twenty five years. Okay, there's going to be a convention, uh, you know, at at the Sheridan next month and fucking

you know, not even in like a third tier city. Yeah, and like you know, the the bench from the eighty seven Lakers is going to be there. You want to go, no, like they you know, but Rick Flair's robe from a fucking one match that he wrestled in in h in Greensboro in nineteen eighty six is there, and I gotta go see that. It's like going a hockey convention and everyone's walking around with their replica Stanley cups like they just won the cup. Oh man, no one's doing that.

No one's doing that, no one, no one, No one carries no one fucking wears, you know, a fucking fake souvenir, a super Bowl ring around, all right, nobody fucking does that, but gotta walk around with your fucking championship belts. I mean it's like you're, like I pointed out, not to judge, but just to say, it's unique to wrestling. What's that about. That's why people are so befuddled by wrestling fan It's not just that, you know, they don't get that it's not real.

They don't understand like why people buy all this shit. You know, I don't really either, honestly. I mean I don't. I don't need and listening because time to explain to people that I'm not a fan that would buy that stuff. And I don't know what that says about me, but I just because because, you know, because what it comes down to for me is really, am I I buy it? What am I gonna do with it? You know? What are they gonna do with it? Well?

They walk around with it, acting like to the champion of the world. Me. I'm like, I wouldn't do that, as we know, and like, hell, I didn't even bring that aw a belt to fucking you know, WrestleMania after right, it was so generously given by the afrementioned Christian Hollister. Yes, indeed, even like they have those deals to do the belts for the major sports. But if you ever see a fan with one of those, Have you ever see one of the athletes holding one of

those, it's a laughline. It's like a he holds it. Yeah, the wrestling in wrestling environments, it's dead serious. When you have one of those things, it's like, whoa. It's like you pulled up with a fucking sixty eight Corvette or something. WHOA, check this guy out? If you fucking like, if you fucking made fun of a guy for walking around with a championship bilt, that's kicked exactly or at the very least, you'd

be a pariah at these things. Right, What all you're doing is wondering the same thing that ninety eight percent of the world wonders when they see it. You know, it's hard to explain to people that that not all wrestling fans get that part of it, you know. And this is kind of in that same category of like, you know, wanting to share a cruise boat with wrestlers. You did what well, Also, it's like also it's like, but on the flip side, it's like Chris Jericho wants to share.

I mean he's you know, obviously doing it as a business venture, but still he's like he's wanting to share a cruise with fans. Yeah, I know, it's the cruise thing. Remember the aw A cruise when we did Life and Death, there was like reference to it. Memphis did one. I don't know, there's like some business model and the crew thing where it's like all it is is really it's a convention on a boat. Though it is. It's the same exact day Jericho started doing this, after the

you know, the star Cast conventions. Everything took took hold him was kind of doing well. So like instead of people checking into a hotel and going to the ballrooms to hear panels and to you know, have meet and greets, they can just do it on a boat. And they had a ring in there, and they even take a dynamite on the on that ship the first year. There are a lot of practical measures that I understand. It's still fucking weird. I have to agree with you. I never want I

never once enough cruised, you know, and I've liked it. I'm not against cruising. I've had fun on cruises, but I didn't. I never got the wrestling cruise. I never felt the pull to go to it. I mean, I've never felt the pull to go to any Listen, if we didn't go to go to those wrestle cons and ship for lapsed fans, I wouldn't. Yeah, I wouldn't fucking go. I'd never I'd never go.

I have no interest in those things. I I I. Yeah, like I value the entertainment that the wrestlers have provided me, but I don't I'm not going to go there and buy a fucking autograph from some Also, I also have no value. Like, to me, autographs are so not valuable. They don't do anything for me. I know they don't. Like I remember as a kid it was something different, like there was something about it that I was like, oh my god. But now I'm like,

who gives a shit. Everyone's got something signed by their mom, you know. Nice. So what was what was Missy doing besides laying on a chair? I didn't I didn't assume she was telling the truth. Lying on a chairpool side in her bikini, about six inches north of the aforementioned anatomy her tits her basketball tits was Missy's face, her mouth slightly a gape, had fallen to the right side and troops slightly forward, like she just fallen asleep

after Thanksgiving dinner. So and your point is nor any other totally North's next the sky is blue. I was really hoping that, like, you know, her her mouth was you know, he said, like a gape, and just by the crack of her mouth it was drool just coming out. That'd be fucking amazing. However, unlike Uncle Joe passed out after stuffing two pounds of turkey down his gullet, eyes word wide open. Let's get that

fucking mail back, bitch, you know about it. Besides Na, she was making this sound haig and no one, no one seeks medical attention for it. Just Jericho Cruz hasn't even taken off yet. It's still anchored, and it's already gotten to this point. It's not moving. Oh God. I saw that my tracks about two feet in front of her, noting her

unfocused eyes and believing I had just discovered her untimely death. I stood there for about five seconds, wondering if I should feel for a pulse and possibly start just compression That is the problem with looking like you've been through some ship in life is you can never take a nap in your car without someone calling the fucking ambulance. Exactly. You listen, you you look like you've been harmed or that you or that you're dead in there. Yeah, like you

know, that's the thing. When you've got a weathered, beaten face like hers. Come on, I can't. I'm sorry. Look, the amount of work she's had done in her face is like and her aging process as well. It just is not done done well for her. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, missy, but you should know better Vitunately for her, she's a real one. She cast stones too, so she's got to be able to take it. She's she'll talk plenty of shit, exactly. And you

know I gave her some money at one point. I got her fucking nudie video there was with Sonny back in the day, such a you know, you know there there was After after watching that one time, you really the way that they all are and the way that you can see that they are and they're just not well. None of the women in that video were well and it's just not fun. The second time, you know, you go back, and she's got like you really can't, you know, and I try to, you know, I'm like, okay, you know, like

this is I mean, what's the watch. It's just a fucking just stripping. It's like a poon in a fucking strip club. But you know, but like it's like, you know, but then when you look, it's like they're they're just not well and you can see it in their face and and you're just kind of like, I don't think I should have this video.

Oh that's a riot. That's a riot. So true. As I moved along, Miss Hyatt's open eyes remained unfocused, and I don't think she had even noticed me stopping right in front of her lounge chair to check for her for signs of life. I can't say for sure if she normally sleeps with her eyes open, like some kind of soul is ghoul? This guy's bringing it. He's fucking bringing it. Okay, have you ever have you ever? Have you ever fall asleep with your eyes open? No one's told

me I have. I don't know how I would know. I'll tell you, well, I'll tell you what I think. I don't know if I have or not, But I think I have one time, because I vaguely remember being in a weird place of dreaming but also seeing what was right in front of me and not moving. It was very bizarre, And then kind of woke up and I was like, Oh, I'm looking at this exact same thing that I thought I was dreaming about, but it's like right here. It's very bizarre, but anyway, some cool, but I, for

one, preferred to thing. She was rendered into such a state of waking, of waking unawareness by some fruity tropical drinks artfully paired with some other fancy gimmicks from the Fanny pasture. Who knows, Maybe she actually did see me check to see if she was alive. Maybe it happens all the time, or maybe she just thinks I was checking out her tits. I was not.

If I were a funnier guy, this email would have done better justice to the strangess of believing the soul of an iconic NWA personality from the nineteen eighties nineties had just discorporated before my eyes. Alas, I'm just not that funny, Oh pretty damn funny. But I suspect the world class whad from the Coaches will go along way to overcome whatever deficiency. I haven't matter, consider it done. Path. Yes, Lastly, I wish for all members

of the soul system a life filled with real peace and fake violence. And may the Warlord have mercy on your filthy souls and justice's case. This makes it way back to that circle. I shall remain anonymous this time. Yours truly some person from the great city of somewhere. I fucking love it so much, fucking amazing. I mean, that's what we're here for, to have a place for thoughts like that and missives like that to land yep.

You know, if you're ever in a situation is wrestling fan where you're like I am, I need to get out of this situation. This is not enjoyable. Just think, well, actually, it'll make a hilarious letter to TLF yep, that's right, and then proceed, yes, and then send it to the lapsed fan at gmail dot com please, so when that fucking mail bag gets cracked open again, we're in business and as we always do when feedback shows, we need to thank the people that have joined us at

Patreon dot com slash the lapsed fan. The thing that makes this the envy of podcasting. The thing that makes this hum the difference between own podcast and ten years of relentless pounding. That's right. It's the support of fans on Patreon. We know you're there, You vote with your wallets, and ain't nobody going to throw us off course or give us the sense that we're lesser than or that we're we're hitting a ceiling or anything like that, because the

support is there and we don't need any third validation. We simply do not. We just keep casting for those who keep proving that they want it. It's a beautiful thing. Folks like Liam McGrath stepping up and joining that executive producer here. Thank you to Liam, Thank you to Joe, TOI de

Tolvey for recently joining us. Travis writes to us, I apologize in advance for the possible rambling nature of this email, but I wanted to reach out to you guys to let you know with a podcast and the effort that you guys have put in is meant to me. I know I titled my email TLFX testimonial, but I don't need this to be read on the show. If you guys would like to for some reason, you're absolutely welcome to share this. I've been a listener since the late summer of twenty fourteen. Wow.

Wow, fucking that's old school pretty us day one, so I'm probably one of the longer tenured listeners of the show. I was a twenty one year old who was in college and an Observer subscriber and found you guys through the clips that Brian and Dave would play of the main's journey on Observer Radio. I heard Dave talking to someone who seemed very knowledgeable of the business, and I knew I needed to hear what this was all about. Little did

I know that I just discovered the soundtrack of my twenties. That's right. Immediately, I knew that this was my kind of show. Four hour podcasts signed me up my boring part time job the college led to me killing tons of time, and with you guys in my ears, had made the day go by so quickly. Boss. We are here for boring jobs. Absolutely

without boring jobs. We ain't shit, damn right. I was a lapsed fan in my own reguard watched from twenty oh three to seven, and I was catching up an Attitude era and Slash Golden era wrestling through the WW network, so the depths of research that Jack would undertake was extremely impressive and much appreciated. I enjoyed the first episodes of the Main's Journey, but what really

hooked me was when lapsed. Vince was conspiring with Patterson to get Brett Hart back to the WW not because of financial reasons not to let bygones be bygones, but because he wanted to have Sean put Brett into the sharpshooter. Vince wanted to ring the fucking bell, and he wanted to drop Owens bones from

the ceiling onto Brett. I mean, that's I mean, I still have to stop myself when I hear that that we that we that we put that out there in the anniverse, that that we uh, that that that that that little that that little uh. Those are the leaps of faith all the way, honestly, that the little joke that we had from college. Fucking I mean, those are the leaps of faith that there are so many times over the course of these ten years, like can we should we tell that

joke? Like that's that's not for everybody, man, and like we found out that like you know, no, I mean, we know you guys do it in a in a spirit that's not you know, strictly designed to offend, right, and so people are with it, man, like, that's that's one thing. Every time we've like taken a risk, people have been like, yep, that's yeah, that's that's who I am too. I I can't help it. That's what I think is funny too, almost ten years late. And it's not just that. It's not just that image.

It's the absurdity, right eat, absurdity for humor to work. It's the absurdity of the fact because again, if you picture it in your mind, not about that being funny, it's about Vince doing it. Right, you think about that he was able, That Vince was able. Number one, this was because this is back in you know what two thousand and two

when we first came up with this idea. So the likelihood of Brett Hart ever coming back was so right, you know, that was absurdity too in there, right, the absurdity right there was that Brett Hard you know, there's no way he's ever come back. And then the absurdity that that Vince was able to talk Brett into letting Sean too. I know, like that already is a non starter, like right there, top it all off, the fucking bones of so vincing man either himself or hired somebody to dig up

owen Heart's corpse. I mean, look, okay, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say. Besides, it was said, you know, and then you decided to put it up because he's that fucking nia party. Just take away, take away the emotional resonance of a being Owen and you know, everyone being very sad about what happened to him. Just like make a make up a character in your head like that. Mister Burns would take the brother's bones, like you know, just to get

it back and back at somebody. Just disembody it from your feelings about Owen, and you might be able to get to the dark, huber place that we were then. Almost ten years later, and I still look back on the moment I first heard that he writes and smile. I laugh for a solid five minutes and look like an absolute lunatic to everyone around me. But I couldn't dare tell anyone what I was laughing about, because how can I possibly explain that scenario to anyone? Yeah, you heard me, fucking fumble

around trying to do it in the past ten minutes. It's not easy. JP's impressions and it's work on all laps characters. I've been an absolute masterpiece. The research that Jack puts in for the main show and the research that JP does or the Cinemat episodes are nothing short of amazing. You guys had been in my ears NonStop for the past ten years, through jobs, relationships,

moves, and even my wedding. On the morning of my wedding in twenty twenty one, I actually listened to an episode of TLF while preparing for my wedding. You guys help me call my nerves and anxiety in that moment, and I'll be forever thankful. For the past six years, I worked in the oil and gas industries and accountant, which means I spent a large portion of my day with my AirPods in. Naturally, I had TLF and Cinemat on a constant rotation in my ears and other orifices. I recently got

laid off and it's been one of the hardest experiences of my lifetimes. Of

my life. Rather, I won't make you guys suffer through the agony porn that many members of the Solar System are keen to send you guys, So I'll just leave at it saying that things were not going well aside from my wife, one of the only other things that got me out of bed and got me through the day with TLF, which I know sounds like a ridiculous thing to say about a podcast, especially a podcast involving people that I've never

met and probably will never meet. But the laughs and the smiles that you guys were able to give me got me through some of the darker days During my unemployment. I dove deep into journeys, starting with the Funker, than moving on to Sandy Shores for the World Class Journey, and most recently, I just finished another word listen of the TNH Tour. Despite a financial hardship,

I couldn't bring myself to change my Patreon subscription. I feel that the work that you guys put into this project and this source of happiness should be

rewarded properly. Again, apologize for it. It's probably a poorly written and rambling email, not at all by the way, Travis, but I start at my new position on Thursday, and I felt compelled to reach out to you guys to know that the work you put in is appreciated and has helped people in ways that you guys probably never could have imagined when you started this project ten years ago. Well, that is correct. I know you guys both have family, so it's very much appreciated that you take the time to

make a podcast for all of us degenerates. You guys are fucking amazing. Thank you for being the soundtrack of my twenties. Thank you for re kindling my love of wrestling, and thank you for ho Commania. That's a shoot, brother, Yep, that's a shoot, and what a strange thing to bond over. But you never can tell, so true, you never can tell what line that comes out of our fucking mouth sometimes is going to be the way. Oh my god, Matthew McKinney, thank you very much for

the pledge. We appreciate the support. My friend Willie Thompson, welcome into the Patreon in our circle. We appreciate it. Kaypeope. We know who's such a great supporter out in Hawaii. We always love to hear from him. I think there's a letter in the bag once again from him this quarter, and we want to thank you for recently upping your support William Webbrights on

Patreon. I just spent five days in the hospital getting pumped full of antibiotics and steroids for an infected knee, and tilef was there for me, filling my ear and my rear. So much of that over the decade, so much of that, so much of that shit, literally shit. Alexander Bogden, thank you very much for your pledge adx ad X three. I always love to see that big bump up all the way to our elite tier,

ladies and gentlemen, the mother of all teers, the Moat tier. It it's a pretty penny, but it sends a strong signal to your coach. So this is this is forever worth doing. Put you puts you on a different on a different level, if you will. Yeah, literally, and that spirit, as we like to do when we convene for the mail bag, a quick rundown of the honor roll of folks that as we record this aren said tier and are willing to signal that it's worth a premium. I

think on par with no other podcast. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I know there are technically tears at this level with the other pods, but are not sure it's as well populated, so we need to thank the elite like Abel Lettier at Adam Graver and Ada eighty x three and Aiden Kevelhan and Alan Smith and Andy Toff and Austin King Sliver and Austin Tyson and Blake Downing and Brad and Brandon Kaiser and Brennan Moe and Brian Blake and

Brian Hinz and Chris Harris and Christopher Creva and Chuck Piacio and cold Stone, Steve Austin and David Cammonester and David Style and Dennis and Dominic Carrera and Hal Cogan and Intern Matt and James Irwin and Jim Rocco and John Francis and Justin Davenport and Kevin Millis and Christopher Craig and Louis Perez and Mark Daper and Martin

Ferguson and Marty Longhurst. What about Mike Hornecker and Monty Davis Junior, Nathan pedro Rios, Pete Cosey, Peter j Panico, Peter Rustling, r Ronaldi, Robert Holtzhammer, Ryan Baal, Sam Fairbanks, Scott Galler, Scott Michael Ferry Sean McGear, Stephen Laird, Tom, that's Nasio, Tom, Travis Vernon, Somosa, William Murphy, Zach Madris, Zach gollaher zvs Choir and that's the elite, that's the Mote Tier and Boss. They have been treated

to the most wholesome of sessions between you and Maria Sorrow. Oh yes, indeed, so Mamia every Monday for the Mote Tier, only recently celebrating. Tell him about it. The one hundredth episode, one hundred episodes and the big one it was Kobashi versus Joe. You were there and it was the first time well I think it was the first time at least that I that. I think we maybe watched one match before as a warm up one,

but the first time you've been on wreussell Mamia. And then we also showed me getting chopt by Kobashi and I'm I'm absolutely loving some of the comments, by the way, that but some of them someone saying on purpose, my mom said that about me getting chopped purpose. Yes, yes, she's like, you know, she gets that that extremely horrified look like what what and does she or does she not say? He hit you right in your neck chest did save my neck chest. Oh man, that's that's just phenomenal.

Most recently, though, I will say we did do U. There was a Hulk Hogan versus a job or match from w Championship Wrestling that was dropped. And you know, every week, every Monday, you can enjoy everyone morning, you can enjoy watching a match with me and my mom. So very hashtag lapsed away to start your week. If I do see some of myself and yeah, it's it's what it sounds like. Man, it's getting back in the living room carpet with your family in the room wondering. Oh

Jesus, it's wrestling time for the little one. Okay, well what is this all about? Oh? That looks so foolish. What is that? How does that even work? What are the rules? But that's the point that the parents who over time ask so much questions that you realize they're actually kind of into it. Yep, actually kind of into it. But it can create that distance, Like the only reason I'm watching it because my kid

I would never watch it. They're they're they're nervous to to to have this go around a little besides this little area, I don't want people to know that right. Let's not talk about this outside, okay, don't don't tell your father about this and this is We'll leave it there. Brother, that's correct too. Well, Scott, want to thank you for the increase in pledge. Thanks for that bump pow, Chris Hide, and we appreciate uh the recent increase in denomination as well. Joe Gavin, thank you for your

support. Same to you, Gerrik Taylor. We want to say thank you to play Mark and Gilbert writes to us hell of CoA chairs. Hard to believe it's been ten years, but I've been a fan for all ten found the podcast when it was on Wrestle's Own and have followed Jack for years before that. Jack remember Lutfi, of course I do. My good bet let vie. I would call in in the triangle choke, that's what we call the Wrestling of THEMMA show. And then to downloaded Jack's rewind on the dog,

the shirt dog that is Jack MMA used to be better. Give me an Iceman or t us gsp bj Anders and silver Brock listener over to Poria Drick is due to Plasus and Pennington. Yeah, well I don't know I understand what you mean. I do it's just a real sport though. That's the thing about MMA, like it used to be better. Sure, but like you can't blame UFC for like what the fighter, you know what I

mean, how the fighters evolve that book? Not really. I mean, yeah, they can book for fan friendliness and to put you know, personalities together on grudge matches. But it's become such a top ten kind of game, you know what I mean, like with rankings and stuff. Sure, it's not overly it's not overly prescriptive like boxing is in that category. But I don't know, I just I don't. I don't think of it in the same way. And that it's like you can't. It's not creative decisions

that made it better, you know, it's a kind of movie. I have had my run ins with wrestlers throughout my years, he writes, but they don't fit a specific episode, so I wanted to share some. I dated Eddie Guerrero's a niece my senior year in high school. Uh oh wow. When he was in the we One of my best friends once approached her and said, hey, your uncle does steroids. Huh. But when the wrestlers came to town, some would stay with her. She once famously housed

Sting in Luger. I met the Rock at a Taco bell stone cold at a Waterburger, had a beer with Mark Henry, and saw the Undertaker at a softball game. Over the years. Wow, my dad was a painter, and one day he said, we got a new guy at work and he used to work for one of those fake wrestling shows you watched. Oh my God. Asked my dad if I could tag along and he said yes. I meant this Carney when I tagged along in my Okay, I met

this Carne when I tagged along with my dad. He hated the w B and said Vince would run it into the ground, but WCW that was where he watched. I asked him who he wrestled. After a bunch of bullshit, he told me Dusty Rhads ended his career with an elbow to the ribs. I went home thinking that Carney was a fucking loser. He used to be a carnee bashed my beloved WB, and now he is taking orders from my dad. I laughed, thinking you went from wrestling Dusty Rhodes to now

being my dad's bitch. Okay, recently asked my dad who that fake wrestler was used to work with. Was it Wahoo? He said no. He would ask my friend where the funks lived. They didn't know who I was. I don't know, he said no, he didn't remember, but that Wahoo McDaniel went to school with his dad. I currently live in Austin and asked my plumber if he was part of the Rhodes family. I used to

live close to Amarilla and would ask my friend where the funks lived. They didn't know what I was talking about, right, They didn't Legends of Amilla. Right, No one cares. Sorry for the rambling, but the experience. I know the CoA chairs will love. I've been in the Undertaker's house due to the nature of my work, said would losing him and other celebrities as a customer. I will say this, he is truly every bit Mark

McCool and not Mark Helen. Maybe more stories to come, Yes, yes, yes, hashtag TLFX much, Eyes on the ground much, God damn it, we're watching, and God damn it, we're listening. Shelse KF thank you very much for the pledge. Hal Cochin writes, did I hear right that Larry King qualifies for under the cinemat if so that's the Ghostbusters one opening JP was looking for. Did Larry King qualify? How I feel like I remember this? Did he qualify? I mean, what was the reason?

I think it's probably because Shawn Michaels did the Larry King parody skin around the Hogan program in two thousand and five, and then of course Larry King interviewing Vince Larry King interviewing wrestlers all over the place. Yeah, the huge interviews you came, like Jericho after the Ben Wah thing or or eating up

to Uh, we did it for Nicky Rourke. Well, that and the the fucking documentary there beyond the map, very black on the mat when we had blouse teen and three people who weren't on the fucking documentary talking about the rest one. This Jericho is here, wait here for the full hour? Chris? Is that your real name? When you're in there? You really hurt each other? Right now? What parts of fake? What pots are real? Alright? I thought we were talking about my book. Yeah we

are. But you know, but what a guy in the face does, he is a get mad? What part of your book is fake? What part of your book is real? Well? Erry, it's one hundred percent one of the two. I won't say which one, so I can't really divide it up that way, Robot, thank you very much. So, yeah, you've been looking for a way for Ghostbusters one. Maybe that's it. Yeah, that's it right there. Yeah, Rus writes on some of our live calls, which of course to available to our patrons every month from

the VIP tier ten dollars a month and above. We watch modern WWB so you don't have to you got money in the bank coming up expertly programmed on Independence Day weekend. By the way, what a fucking bunch of Moreash Berlin, Spare Christ, Summer Slam and all these these four time of year mega shows, Boss, the Supercards, the Big five four. There are going to be two nights going forward. Maybe they'll do it for Royal Rumble two. Yeah, I think they will. Actually it's starting to look like that.

I mean, I personally I think Bash A Berlin should be four days. I actually a week along Dash in Germany, I think, I mean, is that usually what is that a tour? Right? But I think yeah, I think I actually think a five day WrestleMania with five four hour shows would do the trick. We go to our next question for Nick con Jack from I don't know Investment bank X, Please ask you a question, Nick, is it time to consider WrestleMania being a thirteen night event? I

know it's two now, why isn't it thirteen nights? Have you guys considered having a WrestleMania every month making it a monthly thing? I mean, you did WrestleMania Backlash that one year, so it got me thinking, you can just put WrestleMania in front of everything. What about WrestleMania SummerSlam? I mean, just the absurdity. Just let it sit there for a minute, WrestleMania

SummerSlam. So I'm goone drafted up. Let's see how it looks on the idea board, on the vision board, but on one of the I believe this is on one of our live calls. Root comment The Roman versus Cody match reminded me so much of the Sting Triple H match, where it might be hype in the moment, but you think about it again and it does not age well almost instantly, especially while after Sting did post WWE and ultimately was a failed attempt to make you think about Triple H. I guess this

is what we can expect from these big WWE main events. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I look back on the match still feeling like it was Cody, but it's very hazy. It has a lot to do with a lot of other things than Cody. Let's listen. Listen. The thing is, it doesn't matter who wins the match. The architect is Triple H. It's so going down. There's such a civil war with him

in Rock like coming. I swear to god, I cannot wait. Cody is like firmly convinced that Triple H is like his ally and this thing and now the power play happened and Cody got crowned and Rock Roman didn't happen, and Roman's coming back around, and when he comes back around, then Rock's back in the sauce. And there's going to come a time whether they have

to do Cody versus Rock. They've teased it the night after WrestleMania on Raw, they teased it, and that's going to be a fascinating showdown battle of wills over who really runs ww yep, yep. I think Rock wins the championship. Oh my god, Cody got the crossroads lined up. Yep, Rock spins around rock Bottom one two three, Yeah right, he already pinned them clean a mania, it did, And tell me that wasn't part of this fucking chess game. Absolutely. How about this Cody? All right,

the wind's blown in a certain way. Cody gets his moments. But what about night one? Yes, well, how should night one finish? Should it finish? I don't know. With Rock getting the one two three on Cody, the first first match in like fifteen years, I think we're going to look back on that one is much more rich with significance and meaning than we can appreciate it. Hearing which it happened. The overdrive beats everything is the user name of our next page. IOP. We want to thank him

or her very much for the pledge. Brian Blake is all over as a film buff himself, great member of the Solar System, all over the cinemat series, on the James Bond series, and it's just been such a wonderful tour of films that I know I should have seen and never would have thinken the time to watch, but to be able to watch them with Boss's handholding from a research perspective, and to be able to call out the pro wrestlers

that are involved in these movies and get a deep background sketch of them. It's just been tremendous. And on the show about On Our Majesty's Secret Service, Yes, which is what our fourth or fifth cinema I forgot I was somewhere around there. Yeah, he writes, great work. Director Steven Spielt Soderberg rather is also a big fan of this particular Bond while not being a super fan of the franchise. He wrote about the movie on his blog in

twenty thirteen and called the best Bond film. Wow. I don't agree, but I think it's pretty good and definitely more toward the top. And he links us up. So what do you think, I mean? Update? First of all, update people where we are in the Bond journey, And what do you think about On Her Majesty's Secret Service? Well, we are in the midst of are We're in the midst of our Roger Moore era. We've we've kind of got over the hump with that, with just finishing moon

Breaker, so no surprise is coming up. Next is For Your Eyes Only, which has got a very Actually I really thought it was going to be more of a run of the mill type of show, but there's a lot of interesting stuff that's happened happening in there, and it kind of took me, took me aback when I was like, oh shit, like there's there's kind of a lot of stuff to kind of talk about that I really had

no fucking clue. But so, yeah, so we're there, and you know, we're we're I believe we're we're at our halfway point too in regards to the whole journey. Still got a ways to go for sure, but it's it's it's been it's been wild, it's been great, and it's it's really it's been eye opening for me even and I also had not I've seen a good number of of the Bond movies, but i'd never seen all of them and the ones that we're missing, uh I have seen, which is

kind of lucky on my end. But yeah, it's been great and uh so it's kind of weird. Like on our Magie Secret Service, I feel like, is is it? Is? It? Is it? It's Actually it would be a great Bond movie. I think we talked about this. It would be a great Bond movie. And maybe one of the best all around for me. If it wasn't George Lazenby as James Bond, well that is a huge standout about it. Yeah, George Lazenby really really hurts the the the status of that movie. Yeah, it's a good, it's a

it's very good. He just is out of place and and he just does you know, he can't he can't he can't do. He can't hang. He can't hang. That's the bottom line. He can't hang. You know who can't hang is aceax Kowloon, who dropped a sick pledge on our ass since the last time we updated you, and want to thank him for his counsel and support. For sure, absolutely, Steven writes to us. Lazenby

is Bond's version to Goldberg. Thinks he is the greatest despite a lack of talent compared to others, and has only been booked going over so far. That's good. That's actually pretty good too. I'll take that. That's funny. How about a good Cliff, our good palcliff with an email entitled how TLF helped me make some friends? Hey, now, all right, that's nice. You have it. It's rare. I got it here it is, dear, dear co chisels if they're of TLFX. I think I finally

need to share this story. Back in twenty seven, I went to my friend Taylor's bachelor party in upstate New York. On the way there, what was what was I listening to your review of SummerSlam nineteen ninety. Anyway, when I got to the house where we were all staying, I realized I knew nobody except Taylor and his brother in law, who was completely shit faced by the time I got there. The rest were his high school and college

buddies. I started introducing myself to everyone and sat down next to two of Taylor's college friends, Mike and Andy, who were playing cards. I joined in. Now, normally, when you're trying to break the ice with new people, you start off with some generic questions like what do you do for a living or where are you guys from me. On the other hand, I did something that no self respecting person would do. I broke out in

lapsed Steve Austin, Oh my god, help us. I don't know why I did it, but regardless, every sentence began with, well, goddamn son, what the fuck can you imagine? Oh god damn son, what fuck shit. Mike and Andy thought I was hilarious. They had no idea what the lapsed fan was. They thought I was doing a funny impersonation of Steve Austin, and I was. It just wasn't my impersonation, of course it was. You don't have any exclusive dominion on it. Well, no,

but like you ever do that like I used to get. I used to get uh, I'll never forget. When I was in high school, my I didn't I try to do an impression of of of Robert Niro to my drama teacher there, and he said, you're not doing an impression of Robert Nero, You're doing impression of this guy doing his impression Robert. I was like, oh, yeah, shit, you're actually right. I am doing that, Like that's exactly what I was doing. That's funny. Anyway,

I just kept talking like lap Steve Austin the entire weekend. I got to a point where some of the other guys in the house were getting annoyed with me and were saying, man, stop. However, if I've learned anything from the laps fan is to keep doing something people don't like until they start to like it. So I just kept going, God, damn son, I ain't I ain't gonna quit being Steve Austin. And that's the bottom line, Coach stone Cold said. So eventually they came back around and started

laughing again. When I left the party that Sunday, one of Tyler's it's awesome. Give me hell yes, Steve, Hell yeah, I shouted back, This is not where the story ends. Five months later was Taylor's wedding in Costa Rica. The only two of Taylor's friends from the bachelor party that were at the wedding where Mike and Andy. As soon as they saw me, they yelled Steve, So Steve. I don't know if they knew my real name, but I didn't care. These guys thought I was awesome.

More Steve Austin or the TV version of Austin doesn't matter. Of course, I broke out and laped Steve Austin during the five days we're in Costa Rica, and of course I was a hit by the end of our time there, and he came to me and said, Hey, I'm getting married at the end of the year. You want to become my bachelor party in September. Hell yeah, I replied. Two months later, Taylor and I were flying up the Buffalo for Any's bachelor party in the daytime. Part of the

party was at a public park. We drank eight played canned jam. I don't know what canjam is? I don't know what can jam? Is? There the usual. When our time in the park was done, Andy came to me and said, Steve beer bash. I stood in the middle of the crowds, cell phone recording me a bud light in each hand. Cliff I said something in lapsed Austin's, smashed the beers together and poured them all

over my face, barely getting any beer into my mouth. All the guys cheered, and he walked up to me, shook my hand, smiled at me, lean in and whispered that was the only reason I invied get that pain. I don't know if he was kidding. I didn't give a shit if I was being used for my lapst ill was an impressions, so be it. I've been used for worse things. It turned out he was kidding, because we remain friends. I still talked to him Mike to this day,

and it was all possible because of TLF. So thank you for friend to mania. I think I need to see that video, by the way, so that needs to be sent. So get that again on that. I mean, We've certainly heard of people bonding and making friends because they both listened to the show, but I've never heard of someone leveraging some of the show's kind of IP to make other friends. Yeah, that's new one.

That's a new one. Like the people who aren't really fan, who aren't fans of us to like to be able to to modify an impression to suit your needs, to suit your needs, that's money. Yeah right, that's fucking hilarious. Fart Donovan, thanks for the pledge, Brother far Donovan dash Mark, thank you for the pledge. I'm not sure how you want to be known, but there you go. Austin, our good friend, writes JP. I just left a movie theater after seeing The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare.

Oh yes, I don't wish to spoil anything, but highly recommend it, right, he said, highly recommend you look into the true events that inspired this film as well as researching Operation Postmaster. Perhaps you into this, he says. The fact that this guy Richie film is released in the early days of your carnies are forever. Journey is yet another proof point that lap Serendipity is alive and well. Brother. So we don't know anything about that.

We just know that have you watched that film? No, I have not seen anything. Well, keep Austin in mind when you do, like Cliff keeps Austin in mind whatever he does. That's too damn right, Stephen Wrights. Remember we were having some dialogue about why it would make Sergeant Slaughter a heel in eighty four to be a drill sergeant or in the Earth before that. Yes, it could figure it out, like it's he's a military hero. He doesn't change his character yet all of a suddenhen he confronts Iron

Cheek, he becomes a baby face. It's like, why was he a heel before? He was the same guy. And there's been a lot of helpful color that's come in from the Solar System about that. It's it's full metal jacket, is what it is. Like the drill sergeant is a heel, right, I mean I guess, but I mean, yeah, yeah, he's a heel. I suppose Steve writes to it, he's kind of the best part of the movie. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't mean it's

not entertaining. Yeah, but for a lot of people who came back from Vietnam or whatever, right and are populating wrestling crowds in the elite seventies and early eighties, Yeah, I guess that does make sense to see a drill sergeant. It's almost like seeing. It's almost like seeing like Vince is the overbearing boss to Steve Austin, you know, it's just an asshole, right, Everyone you've ever known who's occupied that role in your life has been an

asshole. So, Steven Grossman writes to his following up on drill Instructor's Heels, I just watched a nineteen eighty four Prices Right episode where when the marine who gets called up tells Bob he's a drill instructor, there's a notable boo from a segment of the crowd on the fucking price is right. Okay. It doesn't get any more mainstream Americana than that. Yes, yes, that is the pulse of the nation right there, and Bob notes. Steve writes

that it probably came from retired marines. Drill instructor equals instant heel in nineteen and eighty four. There's your Rentel. There's your color? All right? All right? Would you say so? Rad Logan, thanks for the pledge. We appreciate the support on Patreon. Same to you, Harry Aiken, Thank you very much. Vernon Simosa writes, is it weird? My favorite part of a recent episode of Wrestle Mamia was Mama sorrow coughing and JP saying

drink some water and her trying to power through. Yes, do you remember this? Yeah, well this is not this is not exclusive to Wrestle Mamia. No, she powers through normal thing where she just like she starts, she gets a fit of coughing, and the last thing she will do is drink water or like try to stop talking. It's like Vince uh with sneezing, you know, Yeah, I mean she just like keeps fucking keep going even though she's like choking on her own saliva. It's like, I don't

fucking get it. But it reminds me of a stop one of my favorite Beavis and Butted episodes where they're they're so dumb, you know, they're so stupid. These two they're sitting on the couch and they start choking on nachos, and instead of doing anything about it, they're turning purple. Instead of going somewhere seeking help or anything, he just goes this sucks and tries to

eat another one. What sucks is not that he's choking. What sucks is he can't keep eating nachos, right exactly it, I mean what sucks is that he can't stop eating right essentially, all right, Steve writes to West north By Northwest. M extremely loose connection, he says, But Larry Sherman plays a Cabby in north By Northwest and was later w W Hall of Famer Donald Trump's publicist. I don't think that counts. No, nice try though, you want north By north You got me excited. I want that absolutely,

Well, why do you want it? That Hitchcock? Fuck, that's it. Just Hitchcock about Hcock all the time. Carry Carrie Grand Nash on the series says, it's like the hits, like the old Hitchcock. You know, it's doesn't count just because Nash says Hitchcock, you know, does that mean the fucking the entire Larry Sanders show qualified. Yeah, that means if there's ever a lacina in a movie. Yeah, right, exactly. H Vipin Tiwari, thank you very much for your pledge. We appreciate the

support. Sam Fairbanks, a longtime supporter of the show, commenting on our Unforgiven nineteen ninety nine episode, Right, So, I remember taping this and I stupidly had the volume two low when I said it going. Consequently, to even watch it, you had to have the volume on the TV almost on full, and it had a really bad hiss on the audio. My only abiding memories are Steve Blackman being outraged at finding Valvenus's sex toys. It's

funny to be outraged about them. That's pretty funny to be pissed off that he has sex toys. He's funny about what are you mad about? You were his mom, Davy Boys last main event before he went down the Fuchdin

Jeans Road, and the infamous Kennel from Hell debacle. Bad shows make great episodes of TLF, and he notes because we talked about how the blue barred cage is used in the Al Snow boss Man matches, I thought that was the last time, but sand points out, I think the blue bard cage was used one last time in a match between Edge and Christian during their two thousand and one feud. Really, I don't know how easy that is to verify. I didn't even bother a look yet, but let's see, that's

interesting. Cage Match two thousand and one, edgend Christian Cage Match two thousand and one. Maybe there's folks in the Solar system remember this. Yeah, I can see, I can see the barred cage, but it's black painted black. And they did do that, they did do the thet because Steve Austin and McMahon. McMahon, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that doesn't quite count. Stephen writes Stephen Watts, Very Blue has exactly we're talking about

the end of the Blue Cage era. Stephen Watts, Right. I can't decide if Helen Hart is horrified at Davy becoming a second Stu or gleeful that Diana is now trapped in the same self imposed hell she has been with Stu. Well, I think both. Is that ye I was gonna ask what your thought was, I think both of Matt Actually, I think there's there's a lot of yeah, there's there's there's it's it's not fun, But at the same time, she's glad to have other people suffering. I see,

doesn't it doesn't make it worse that others suffering from a similar melody. It'll never put it that way. Never. It doesn't make it worse, doesn't you know. It doesn't directly help her, she doesn't bask in it, But it doesn't make it worse. But it provides, it does provide some little bit of entertainment, some kind of you know. Yeah, see, you thought I was a fucking drunk, But no, you're right down in

the ship too. But love that ship. We always talk about, Baker, love to see people, you know, fall, rise and fall. What we really love to see is to see someone who said they would never do something do it. Yes, to see someone who says they would never be in that position in that position. Yep. You better watch when you

use that fucking word never. You better watch when you use that fucking word never, yep, because you are incentivizing anyone in your shot to watch like a hawk for the rest of your days on earth, for the day and the moment you give in on that principle, and it will make them feel very self satisfied in that moment because they knew, yes, because they knew you were a failure from the beginning. They knew you weren't a strong as

you pretended you were. Yep, there's nothing American like coldon that shit than to see someone fuck it, go back on their word or go back on their their stance, especially if the stance had any air of judginess about it. Oh it's on now, baby, Yes, I'll be watching like a

hawk. I'll and I'll make a little note to self when you betray that, when you betray that stance you thought you took, Cliff writes to us relevant relevant to Unforgiven ninety nine were Of course, we spent a lot of time talking about Vince McMahon short lived WWAF title win on television, and that led if you were called boss to a dialogue about you know how the title used to change hands a lot on television back then, and it hasn't so

much since you were trying to place the last time the ww world title the Big Belt changed hands on free television, and Cliff did point out that it wasn't just that night that Roman speared Vince on like a late December twenty fifteen episode of Ron took it. The results so Kevin Owens Universal title win on Ross Aptember twenty sixteen. AJ Styles winning the title on SmackDown. That's right. That was on SmackDown November twenty seventeen. I think he took it back

off of jenneral Mahal. Then Carmela SmackDown Women's title smacked Down. That doesn't count. That's what we talk about talking about the WWE Men's World title. Dagon Brian ww title smacked Down twenty eighteen probably doesn't count. I think that was the lesser of the two. When Brock beat Kofe for the belt, that counts. I think kind of, Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That was on that first SmackDown on Fox. Yeah, and he fucking buried the shit out of him. Yep. He mentions a Sasha win that

doesn't count. Nikki win, that doesn't count. Biggie winning the title counts. That was in Minding the Bank cash in. That does count. That happened un raw in September of two thousand and The reason the women's doesn't count is because you know, it's not what we're talking about. Well. Also, the women's belt up until more recently was more of a television championship, right. It was a belt that would change that could easily change hands on

a on a television episode as opposed to a a pay per view. It's true, it wasn't as uncommon. The thing about what made it so such a big deal was that you think about for years, Yeah, like before like when was the when was the first time that a w the WW championship in the modern era? Like, so February right, So think about from Hogan winning it at Madison Square Garden at that house show televised house show was

a televisor just videotaped when who beat Who? Hogan beat Cheek? Oh those televised Yeah, in New York. So since then because I guess, well, I guess it would have happened. You him losing the belt would have been it. But again that's four years in between. And then after that, do you count Brett winning it on a taping sure as opposed to a pay per view? Yeah, so then you have the flare, sure,

the flare of savage swing non pay per view. Yeah. Okay, but still like we're talking about a handful, like we're talking about we can count literally on one hand. I was talking about in particular about the live weekly television era. Sure, how often if they sharch the world title on a weekly post post the launch of Raw, you know, is what I was talking about. Yeah, well even then. Yeah, so ninety three, Yeah, the first time it would have changed hands would have been would have

been Brett. And that was such a a crazy thing. It was the last thing I thought in ninety No, in ninety seven. Yeah, Sid beating Brett, Oh yeah, that was I I never like, I went that match wanting Brett to lose because I was so I was like, oh, here he goes again. And when another fucking title word, and and then it was one of the things that really solidified my fandomm'm Steve Austin. Yeah, that was huge. When he came out of cost Brett the belt

and when he came out and waffled him with the chair loved. Sid actually won the championship on TV, Like it was huge, and that's what led to the whole thing where Brett shoved down Vince remember that on Raw and said this is bullshit. Yep, yeah he was. It was the first whiff of like, as we covered in our ninety seven journey, it was the first whiff of fans cheering when Steve brought Injustice to Brettheart's doorstep. Yes,

they wanted that. They wanted Brett to eat shit for some reason. It's tremendous and for them to pick up on it and eventually like run with that and what that meant about transforming the nature of what a WWF top babyface was.

Yeah, and being in a position like we talked about with Tom earlier, to have really annored their choice, but to lean into where the heat was there and just fine, you know, if Steve Austin's going to be our top face and all the ramifications that has for how our top faces have to carry themselves and you know how not wholesome they're going to be, So be it. Oh yeah, And thus a boom period on par with no other emerged. Mick Wisen, thank you very much for the pledge, my

friend. We appreciate the cake. Rob writes to us, speaking of surprisingly good Mark Henry matches, because remember there's a pretty good Mark Henry Delo Brown match and unforgiven. Yes, yeah, that was a little scene stealer there, it was. He had a match at one of the Brian Pilm memorial shows two thousand and one, I think, with Hugh Morris, where both guys busted out a lot of impressive stuff for a couple of really big dudes.

Robb says, I edited a bunch of the documentary interviews on the DVD set that came out three years ago, around the time the Dark sid episode had in that whole series of shows might make for a good episode of the cast someday. That's interesting the Pilm memorial shows. I have not seen that Mark Henry match. Maybe one day I will make the time to watch it. Philip Bain writes to us, I love this sheer amount of time and effort on the Unforgiven show that went into JR and JR saying the word stay.

Yes, how they animal got to the bottom of that. We put it after the Solar system. No, people think it's maybe JR. Just putting on a different affect to his voice, as if he's commanding a dog to stay in the old southern twang. But it sounds like Michael Hayes and me. But why, I know that's the question once he I mean was he? I don't know. It's probably not Michael Hayes and miss my point,

but I mean it's it's weird. It's a weird thing, the weirdest, like almost it sounds like it's coming in from another frequency, you know. Yeah, like you listen to radio station and you cross like a low frequencies thing and it takes over for a second. That's what it sounds like to me. It's almost like like fucking exorcist possession, you know. So still wait for clarification. I don't know. JR is in tough health these days, but maybe someone can get the question out to him and play him

the audio and see if you can run Yeah fucking sentence? Was this you, JR? I don't know he won't totally won. I don't know if I even if I don't remember saying the time, I might be able to hear the thing and say, oh, yeah, that's that's a voice I do you know what I mean? Yeah, I've always ever dine on a wrestling broadcast per se, But when I was, you know, trying to channel a certain type of scene or person or point in time, I would use that voice. Maybe that's so awesome? Is that what you do?

You? You do that kind of thing to make me feel uncomfortable or it still bothers me to this day. That's stay what was that? Stuy? Brother? I'm not going anywhere, bro, One day I wasn't even moving what why don't you stay hating jeep B. Thank you very much for the pledge, he still says it. How did I move on? Nick Nicky writes this on Patreon. I posted in the Terry F finale about how I was working on unionizing my workplace and my personal lap Serendipity is the pay per

view with the referee labor dispute getting a deep dive. The week that we march on the boss and get recognized, you boys are getting another motor wants me negotiate and get our raises because you helped me brush this through simply by being in my ass while I'm on the job. Tremendous. Hopefully you guys, I would love to love you know. You get people, you know say wow, you know I've noticed you've really uh you've really up to your your your game here at works? Like, what uh what you been doing?

Well? I got a podcast at my ass. Okay, fired exactly right to hr they go right, ted Teddy writes Teddy, and Teddy gets to the point on Patreon he were recently the pain is the point embrace. It is pain is the point embrace it, and I ask you to maybe just quickly boss, maybe for newer listeners, and maybe in the spirit of TLFX, can you just extrapolate quickly why you responded so affirmatively to a sentiment like that. Why is the pain the point? Because we can't evolve as

as a species if we don't hurt. Evolution is pain, right, Evolution is the idea of evolution requires things to happen that didn't happen before. It requires you to do things that you didn't do before. That's that's it. It is essential to life. Pain is the only true constant. Wow. Because what happens if you try to avoid pain? Oh, you get hurt worse if you try to avoid the pain of doing things you don't want to do. That's the definition of pain. Oh yes, it's going to come

down on you tenfold easily, So don't ignore it. Accept it. What is the pain anyway you name it? Wow? I think the pain is obligation. Uh huh, that's one of them. The pain is like things that you would never choose to do that you have to acknowledge. You are powerless to not do lest you destroy something or someone. You must do it. It's the pain. How it makes it. The pain as you can is you can't opt out, and it's annoying and it can be very frustrating,

but it's life. Well, yeah, there's a lot of people following a lot of influencers who're telling themselves there's a way around the pain. We're telling themselves that the level of maturity they're at it, you know, nineteen years old can basically be a steady state for them, and they can earn a lot by making content and that seems like a relatively painless existence, right, I mean, you're going to the club anyway, why not just interview

drunk girls outside the club and ask the questions about dis right. But that's trying to avoid the pain. Yes, the pain inherent in the reality that until you're doing something to earn money that hurts a little bit, that puts you in a position to do things that you otherwise wouldn't do, you're not really on track. It's fooling yourself. You're involved in a temporary, ephemeral exercise. That could be wrong about this, but I think I think unless

you're feeling pain, you're you're not doing adult things. Does this make sense? Oh? Yeah, absolutely? Embrace the pain. Embrace it, Blake, right, make it your friend. Well, look, he recognize it as a necessary precondition to getting what you want, Recognize it as okay, well, here's the pain, here's the thing that stands in the way, here's the thing that makes it difficult. And of course anything worth having is worth working for, right anything? Oh you know what I mean? You

know that goes. If it was easy, everyone would do it, Jimmy Dugan, hard is what makes it great. Very similar sentiment being expressed here, very similar. It's just about being able to recognize the pain as necessary as opposed to something that is to be decried or belly ached about. Life is pain. Wrestling fans know this. Wrestling fans know this. Oh yeah,

oh yeah. Spend most of your life free time watching this fucking foolishness, and you can't even talk to anybody about it in your real life because of how ridiculous it is. That's the pain, right, yes, Blake writes in an Unforgiven episode subject lind Oh and then all it says in the body of the email is die And I'm sure you said this, die. Can you forgive me? Or am I unforgiven? Die? Die? Can you forgive me? How am I forever unforgiven? It's a great question.

It's a great question. It's the only question over to Hawaii we Go and our headline weird Unforgiven ninety nine moment. Oh boy, here we go. This is it. I wasn't going to email you, but when you brought up the weird moment between j R. And King where it seemed like somebody took over the feet and said stay, I had to tell my own stupid story about this. When I was about twelve, I would go to my local Blockbuster to rent wrestling tapes. Occasionally they would let you buy them because

they only had one copy and nobody rents them anyway. Ain't that the truth? I asked about Unforgiving ainety nine, and they let me buy it. I already knew of the kennel from hell Match, so I wanted to get this tape. I watched it the whole thing and remember hearing the stay moment. But I kept going because I wanted to finish the show. But as soon as it was over, I rewound back to the moment because I wanted to show my mom. As it was late at night, I stopped the

tape went to bed. When I woke up, I wanted to turn the tape, but it wouldn't play. Yes, I ejected the cassette, and when I went to pull it out, something the LAPS fan doesn't do by the way, the tape had gotten snagged and broke, rendering the tape useless and forcing me to be stuck with this weird moment in my head without any way of showing people. To this day, I will say to my dog the phrase down boy, stay followed by guy this day, he would say

it because of that moment. It's been so long that I forgot where it came from. Oh, that's amazing, that's what we're here to do. Yes, indeed, and then the greatest podcast ever unearthed it, bringing me down back down memory lane. Sorry for the long email. That's not long, it all due, but as you guys represent that wrestling fan friend that we all long for, I feel the need to share my experience about the stupid throwaway thing from the show. Take care, and yes, there are

actually about six locations of the Dunks in Hawaii. Wow. My wife enjoys the coffee and a good Boston cream donut. Every other day. I go for glazed because I'm a basic bitch. Legitah, listen, listen, all right. If you like the glaze, the only real thing you can do to make yourself feel more satisfied is get a fucking bow tie. Oh interesting choice. The bow tie is one giant ass glazed donut. That's all it is. Is that your choice? So? What what's your usual donut choice?

Yeah? Oh, I'll tell you what. You know, I love that. If that's there, I'll get it. It's not always in stock, but if that's there, I definitely get it. But I also really really enjoy It's kind of an odd choice, but I love Duncan's blueberry donut. Sure, it's so good. Break cake donut. Sure, yep. It's one of the few things they've added to the menus that sticks and isn't yep, like a season then yeah, it's it's great, Like it's only one like it's I often have like a craving for that. Well, I

recommend the coffee roll. Oh yes, I can have a coffee roll most days. Okay, it's like a cinnamon roll basically, but I mean, but also it's it's again, you know what it it's a glazed donut with cinnamon it is. Yeah, that's what it is. And it harkens back to why the word duncan is in the title. Anyway, you would dunk that in coffee. That's what made it a coffee roll. It doesn't taste

like coffee. It just pairs beautifully with a hot cup of coffee. Right, and you know exactly you want to be an adult, that's what you do. Yeah, if you want to be a bitch, go on to be a bitch. You have like the the new you know, triple Brownie, you know, explosion right with watermelon in it or something? Right?

All that poor ship Dulton rights, we move up in the catalog Halloween Have a eighty nine DearS co Chairs was listening done Forgiven ninety nine and was pretty excited to hear Halloween Have Like nineteen eighty nine was being chosen in the next victim of the Lapse treatment. Have watched the full show always enjoyed the thunderdomee cage match between Flaar and Sting and Verse Funk and Muda. It's very fitting.

This episode was chosen as my final sop for the season with Monster Jam in Philadelphia at the link and this show took place at the Nut of Funk Philadelphia Convention Center. Whenever an episode from ninet eighty nine and to BAWCW gets the LAPS treatment, it always makes me happy knowing one of the most underrated

years in WCW gets talked about. Nineteen eighty nine was the year that the company should have taken off to new heights with the Flair Steamboat rivalryed Terry Funk coming in, Sting's bigger rise to stardom from eighty eight, and many different things the company did before the end of the year, But as everybody knows,

by the beginning of nineteen ninety it all went to shit. I always wonder what the company would have been like had they kept the momentum after the Bash going into Starcaid, had they not done that tournament setting that's so big on that Star Kid Memorial tour. When you get to that Star k eighty nine and it's like a theme tournament deal the Iron Tournament. Yees so stupid?

Yes, so against what made n Toba worth watching In eighty nine, plus head Sting won the world heavyweight title at Wressell Warre instead of the Bash, had he not gotten hurt Can't Wait to hear this. One guy's going to make my trip to Philadelphia even better. Well, I hope it did. Carlton Glad to be of service, Cliff writes, nothing is more terrifying than falling asleep to TLF in my ears, oh, only to be awoken by the raspy, hallucinogenic whispers of Davy Boyce Smith. Oh God, I

want to consider that one talked about an unforgiven ninety nine. How like there's a referee brawls. They're doing the referee job action as mentioned, Yes, and Mike Kyota really starts tuning up Jimmy corderis like for real, hitting him really hard, and Scott Michael Ferry the home. He points out, if you want to hear Kiyota explain why he went so hard on Jimmy corderis it comes up about forty five minutes into the July twenty six, twenty twenty three

episode of the ref In It Up podcast where Kyoto was the guest. He actually starts apologizing before Jimmy can even get into the story and said that he didn't know what he was doing, but was told to lay the kicks in so they didn't look like shit, but didn't. I didn't. I can tell you right now, I never never. Can you come on? Can you come in please? All right? Door shut all right? I want you to kick the ship out of Kimmick Cordaires. All right, he's a

scab. Wow, it's just a storyline. It's it's not really shut up, he's a scab, referee crossing the line. I want you to kick the ship out of him. I want you to beat him within an inch of his life. Why why you want me to do that? Boss? I don't even understand what the point of that is. He needs to be donal lesson? Why is that? What do you do wrong? What he did wrong was wake up this morning? Right? Right? Like? Do I have to explain? Wait a minute, Mike, do I have to

justify to you? Do you need to be taught a lesson as well? Do you need to meet? Do you need me to remind you that if I tell you not to wake up in the morning, you better not fucking wake up. I mean you mean to say it's not enough that I say he has it coming. And that's not the end of the discussion. You, somehow are entitled to a greater explanation than that that that's your position. I don't require allowing you to have an opinion. I don't think that's within

your job description. And I mean I brought opinion on anything, right exactly opinion. Listen you you you don't have an opinion. You don't have an opinion about anything. Mike. I gotta tell you, I brought you in here expecting to use you, you know, as as a helpful partner in the and the chopping down to size of one Jimmy cordiras. But as I sit here and as I hear you carry on like this, I must confess I reconstituting what my mission for the day might be. Let me miss some

Mike. Have you ever been on the receiving end of nunchucks? That's all fame right there now, Vince, I can't say I have what do you mean someone hit me with him or something? I mean, yes, I mean someone taking a pair of nunchaku. Brother and dude, Brother, Terry, this isn't about you, brother, That's not too far from what I mean. Brother. Are you talking? Are you talking to Ichi bond Hogan Son or non Chaku Fatu Son, Terry? I don't know what the fuck

you're talking about. All I'm talking about is I'm going to take a pair of a nunchucks that I keep under my under the first thing I give in mind, where does he keep them that I keep under my belt? Why under his belt? Not on his belt, but I keep under my desk in a drawer. And I'm going to beat you with him, all right, And here's the here's the kicker. This is the kicker. This is the part that you're really going to enjoy. I command you not to defend

yourself, just like Jimmy carneris. That's dude, that's a line for the ages. I command you not to defend yourself. What's funnier than Mike Yoda getting beaten to ship by Vince McMahon with nun chucks Mike Yoda not being allowed to defend himself during such He's been totally canned, not even like and but that means he can't put his hands up, he can't try to stop the things from hitting him. He basically just doesn't keep his hands it aside and

let this weapon hit him wherever. Vice the Germans it's appropriate. I can't believe you ticket there. I did not see that. Have you ever been beaten by nun chucks no bet on the receiving end. Oh shit, so that's good stuff. Thanks pal, Matthew Gunn, thank you for the pledge. I appreciate that solid twenty bucks of support. Mike Reynolds, thank you for the pledge. Josh writes on Unforgiven ninety nine your co chairs. I've

been a huge fan of the show from the very first episode. Love hearing your takes in all the classic shows from when it undaddle used to be better as I'm around the same age and become a fan around the same time. My dad told me at a very young age that wrestling as a bunch of fake bullshit. So I so I wasn't a fan through most of elementary school.

I started checking it out from time to time when my friends at school kept blabbing on and on about some upcoming match between hul Cochan and this Ultimate Warrior guy. Their excitement got me excited. By the time they started the build up for Survivor series nineteen ninety, I was an addict for life.

I would wake up early on Saturday fucking morning to catch the first hearing of Superstars at six thirty a m. I had become absolutely hooked, just in time for most of my friends to decide they were getting too old for this shit and didn't want to talk about it anymore. Yeah, that that hits home. That's many of our trajectories, I suspect. Yeah. Yeah, you're the guy that's still watching it. You know, Oh my god, what's wrong with you? Watch that? Jesus Christ? How old are you?

Did you do? You say you watch it Saturday? You just watched the WWF on Saturday. They're still on TV. Wait wait, you have it on your you have it on your DVR. You host a podcast about it. You give guys money, they pay you and you do what? Oh my god? Now when you go like to conventions, do they like want to take pictures with you and stuff like? Gee? Wait, you watch wrestling with your mom and recorded people pay to listen to it? How

much do they what? That's t LFX. That's what we're doing. When I saw that you were doing a deep dive for and Forgiven ninety nine, I had a feeling it would be running my first email to you guys, as this was the first televis show I had ever gone to live. Previously, the only wrestling show I had been to was a house show in the Litle Community College's gym, headlined by the Big Boss Man versus the mounting in the Big Blue Cage that my father had taken my sister and I too.

I have no doubt that my dad was ashamed of this path his son had gone down, but he was a good sport and bought the tickets to old doubt one of the happiest memories of my childhood. Even though the Kennel from Hell is not remembered quite as fondly. I always thought it was cool that I saw Big Blue at both of my first twelve shows A first two shows.

Rather, I have no problem admitting that Unforgiven nineteen ninety nine is an awful show, but going to a live televised show a pay per view in the middle of the editordero was a huge deal to me, and I would buy those tickets again in a second if I could. Just being there was exciting, because in the days before the event, I had to deal with the very real horror that I may not be able to go at all.

At the time, where I lived was about a three to four hour drive away from Charlotte, As Falvenus was so eloquently mentioned a hurricane had hit North Carolina a few days before the show and a ton of roads in that state were closed. My friends and I were still teenagers in nineteen ninety nine and had no phones to know of every road in our route was even going to be clear? Think about that, boss, that's crazy. You don't know

if you're going to get free passage. Yep. We left early in the morning to ensure extra time for any possible to tours, but we got as far as Myrtle Beach and traffic stopped for the longest two hours of my lush Jesus, Is the traffic going to start moving in time? Even if it does, Are all the fucking roads going to be like this? Stone cold Steve Austin has guaranteed that there will be a new champion tonight, and I'm

going to be sitting in this god forsaken car. God was smiling on us that day, and we made it to the Charlotte Coliseum with plenty of time to spare. During your deep dive, you mentioned that the crowd was turned away from the ring during the XPOC versus Y two j match. Remember this, boss, They got a chin lock on everyone's turned away. Yes, right. My seats were behind the hard camera, so I had a perfect view as some hick held up a giant sign that read eat more Beaver.

It's amazing what can distract a crowd, and it's amazing how we find these little things, you know, people who were there, Yep. All the other hick thought it was the most clever thing ever and started channing eat more beaver whichever remember correctly you could hear on the VHS release. Since that time, I've been to dozens of w W shows and have seen some pretty memorable moments, my favorite being when Daniel Brian cashed in his money in the bank.

That moment itself was cool, but even cooler was what happened immediately following. Our seats at TLC twenty eleven were in the first roun near the entrance. Basically we were sitting damn near on top of the pyro and yes, it was hot. After the cash in, some prop guy was walking by taking the briefcase to the back. My wife shouted down at him to get his attention. She asked him if she could take a picture of me holding

the briefcase. Into our extreme surprise, he obliged. The actual briefcase proof attached. I see it. That's cool. However, since since September twenty six, nineteen ninety nine, whenever conversation comes up or people are sharing stories of great wrestling moments they have seen in person, first WrestleMania's epic title changes, debuts of characters that will go on to lead legacies that will last forever.

I have to hang my head in shame and admit that the most memorable wrestling moment I probably ever see live is the kennel from fucking Hell's right. That's right, keep up the great work. I have not noticed JP eating into goddamn microphone in a while, for which I've been really grateful. I'll just give it a minute. Any chocolate covered pretzels or anything, boss, nah, and don't have anything. All jokes aside. I'm a huge fan

for what you do and greatly appreciate it. With my job, I usually am in the car for eighty percent of the day, So I welcome a seven hour podcast about a time when wrestling was so exciting. I would wake up before dawn because mister Perfect is about to wrestle some local gas station attendant and I cannot go on with my day until I know what happens yep, yep, Josh, I feel you man. That has gone forever, Yeah, gone forever yep, never come back ever. And we need to thank

faster than Chuck for joining that EP tier. He's faster than Chuck apparently, Boss Chuck Palumbo. Perhaps I think that I thought that that's what I thought of first right away. Got to thank Alan Smith for bumping up into that lade Mote tier swinging his big dick around. That's deeply impressive and appreciated.

Thank you very much for joining the tip top tier. Happened Smithy Anthony writes at Unforgiven ninety nine, listening to the Unforgiven pot at work currently and when you guys talk briefly about Kevin Kelly and fully doing the commentary for the Ken from Hell and realize that, oh my god, this was my first cell

match. Oh god, I'm sorry. When I was younger, I got the Fully Hard Knocks and Cheap Pops tape and from the Vault HBK one, but I watched Foley's first Thanks for the blast from the past, guys. Can you imagine that's your introduction to the concept I don't. I mean,

I guess that's awful. We do lose sight of how privileged reward. It just happened to be watching every week when they came out with that concept, so we could see it from the very beginning with Michaels and Taker, because if you see all that stuff in reverse, I'd imagine it's not as electro vine. No, I would. I mean, honestly, I would imagine if you if you didn't see, if you didn't see uh what youman call it, uh, Michaels and Undertaker, then there were I don't think there

were any really good cell matches. I mean, I know that there was the spectacle of King of the Ring, but I don't think you would have the concept of what a hell a cell match could be if that was even your first, if you had never watched one before that. Yeah, I feel like you'd almost have the wrong idea of what excited people at first about hell and a cell. Yeah. Yeah, it's really just it becomes more about like, oh, what you know, who's going to die? It's

a spectacle. Whoras, of course the Michael's match was a spectacle, but it had that sort of war games settle a fewed grit to it. Yeah. Well, and also it was excellent and it told a real, a real story going the whole way. It wasn't you know, it wasn't just the two stunts and then call it a day. Yeah. Bran Schmitz, thank you very much for your increase in pledge. We appreciate the support. Same to you, Lee Salisbury. Welcome to the Inner Circle. Marcus Crouch,

thank you very much as well. Cliff makes an interesting remark or observe they had the referee strike at unforgiven ninety nine. We remember this, of course. Yes, this may be untieing to the nineteen ninety nine Major League Baseball Umpires Association mass resignation. That would make sense, which, according to a link he provided, was a labor tactic used by sixty eight MLB umpires,

including sixty six members of the Major League Umpires Association. They were unable to strike because they had a labor agreement in place, so fifty seven of them formally resigned by orchestrated letters. I don't know what why that would catch the attention of the wrestling business orchestration in an attempt to force negotiations for a new labor agreement. So I always appreciate what's going on in the zeitgeist that

may have informed these seemingly random creative inspirations these wrestling companies get speak. Speaking of orchestration, did you happen? Did you watch any of the Boston Pops concert over the fourth I did not. I mean, have you seen any image of Key Lockhart in the last year or two? I would I would love for you to do it for me. I mean, what did what did you see? He just I mean, yeah, he'sn I gotta give him that, he's sixty four, but man, he just looked like he

was about to just fall apart. His face is so like droopy and his I know, it's a hot day, obviously, you know it's a hot it's a hot night, but man, he's the sweat just was just absolutely inappropriate. Like he just he looked like he was the person who was having the least fun on the fourth of July. He probably was. Probably we know him and his misery, I know, I do, I do. I mean, he's like he just looks old and and just just a shell

of his former shell of himself. It's coming up on his version of these final two Roger Moore Bond Films. Indeed, indeed he is. I heard there's some caked up makeup coming. There there is some cake makeup coming. And you know what, what do you expect when you get like a fifty six year old man playing James Bond? Teddy, thank you very much for the ep level pledge. We appreciated Andrew Brister coming strong into that mote tier. Look at you maya good longtime supporter. Always good to see cash on

the table. Thank you so very much for all you do. Christian Hollister, same to you, a Day one Solar System member as you know around these parts. Rus, thank you very much for your pledge to have wrestling gifts is back in the spot. We want to thank you once again. Oh no, russo not that I can detect yet. Rus is the kind of guy that would you know, pay for your Patreon under a fake name just so we could like like passive aggressively respond without mentioning it in like a

like a vague tweet. You know, those those operators can be Vernon Somosa. Thank you very much. Welcome to the mote tier. My friend Jeff writes, I'm forever grateful that fake fighting never came to my small town in time as a newspaper journalist, I would have definitely been my turn in the office of that added. Yeah, no small part of like scar tissue from me in that character. You know, sure, that's part of what's going on there. It's just like the deep anxiety had causes when you get these

completely arbitrary missions. You know, Oh, I can imagine just come back and say it's fake, like because the editor, the editor doesn't want to show their hand and basically the editor doesn't want to acknowledge that the only reason you're doing the story is they have like a personal hang up about the subject. You know, they can't because that's not there's no integrity in that. So they have to like manufacture newsiness to get what they want in the paper.

Eric stop, Oh yeah, that would be nice. It's all a fraud. Eric Hodges, thank you very much for your pledge. Christopher Reader, thank you very much for your support on Patreon. Damon Ivy, thanks for bumping up the support that you see warranted. This This from an atom two on Patreon. He makes a comment underneath the carnies or forever diamonds are forever Yes, you're right, So this film works as a deranged animal to

the WWF early nineties sex scandal. Oh Rory Hodgson viewed himself as James Bond and then two obviously queer coded Double O seven villains or Pat Patterson and Terry Garvin. There we go. Did I not make a reference to them? And maybe I did? I don't remember. Mitch Gee, welcome in to a high level pledge elite circle. We appreciate that support in that denomination. We talked about the Ruse Sneakers the WCW had an endorsement deal with in eighty

nine as part of Halloween Havoc ninety eighty nine. Do you remember that? Yes? I did put the zippers on them. I mean, I try not to, but you know, I have to remember things. I have to them well them Sometimes they just bury themselves in my memory. Fortunately for us, more than one member of the Solar System remembered this particular line of

sneaker and had personal experiences with them. Philip Wrights on Patreon, My brother had a pair of Ruse with their odd pockets for smuggling juice and rigs. No doubt come from what I can tell, they were no they were only big enough to hold like four dimes. I don't know what the fuck complete with WW endorsement stack of dimes, that's for sure. So this guy had the w c W ruse prominently featuring the Steiner brothers. It's actually kind of

funny because the WW ruz. That's hilarious ruse. Oh yeah, it's the ruse in general. It's all a ruse featuring the Stiner brothers. Even even as a child in the early nineties, I thought this endorsement was as odd as it was cool, though I was familiar with the talent thanks to my factually questionable and dull as dishwasher to play WCW SuperSlam card game, copy of which I gifted to Jack and JP for Christmas twenty three. Yes, this is that Phil bringing us that Super Slam card game boss. Oh yes,

that was that was a weathered box that did it. One of one of these days we got to actually get around to playing it. That's probably some that's some fucking uh Patreon ship right there. That's a great idea, a doubt, I know. My friend John Bouchet on the Chart of the Territories podcast has made quite a thing out of doing the Gordon solely uh trivia game for in a podcast format, and that's pretty cool. Yeah, that's something

else we've received courtesy of of the intrepid members of the Solar System. And look a look at him, look at his face, look at him? Why what what do you want to build a case against him for? I mean, he looks he looks engaged. Yeah, he looks like he's engaged in some kind of pornography. Not at all, he looks he looks so much better than you are describing. Yeah, this guy such short shrift. He's he looks like he's about like look at his mouth is hanging open.

Yeah, well that's just the moment they caught him in the in the photo, he's just uh, he's awful. It's an embarrassment. There is someone the Boston Pops, Okay, like John Williams never looked like that when he's gone to the Boston Pops saying it looks like he's trying to hold on to like he's dyeing his hair. It's a little he's hold on dear life is

a little who's that woman screaming with the microphone? I don't know, I have no idea Debbie Gibson or some other great Boston exponent with Donna Summers. So that's the ruse. There's more to come, as she could. Oh yeah, he's to ex calhoon. I had a red, a pair of red and white ruse. The pocket was completely impractical, meaning that the entire shoe line, name and all was built around a disappointingly useless gimmick. But I still knew for certain that when mom bought them for me being new,

they'd make me run faster. That's right, of course. Do you remember that era where faster, stronger and whatever else where sneaker companies were literally trying to sell you in the idea that if you bought these, let's say, Rebock pumps, that you would actually have increased performance of course, that you could fly almost. I fucking, I fucking buy I had my, my, my, my, my pair of pumps. At one point. You bought into it. Absolutely. I thought for sure I played better basketball.

And when you when you pump those things and they hug those ankles, you you were in a different headspace, weren't You didn't hug shit? Such a joke, fucking bullshit, Like like I remember, like I like I don't know what I expected, but I can imagine that I felt. I wanted to feel like, I don't know, Superman after I pumped those things twice. But it's like, okay, it feels like a shoe, look like anything. It was so fucking but when you press the release button, it

went. Yeah. That also happened when I when I passed gas. So uh, our good friends Steve and Jillian on the last live call did what they always do, but we didn't get to it. You were indisposed anyway, but that's that's no excuse I didn't get to it. They'd like to drop a quarter in the lap lapsed jukebox during live calls to get some renditions from the boss man. Uh, what did I? What do I need

to do? Because during modern w B pay per views, of course, there's always down time for your coachers when we're delivering live calls to the Solar System via Areon, and so this was their requests. It's it's obviously a bit belated, but we hope it suffices. Jillian Wrights, it's been about a year since we've done this, and we might be a few mimosa as deep as we get ready for the show. But in the spirit of Andrea the Giant, we thought we'd throw a quarter in the lapsed jukebox to get

lapsed Andre's singing Maudis's porcois to celebrate all things French. Hell, maybe Dusty will want to join into Oh God and again. This is just another example of how enterprising you can be, where if you have the sort of one off bit of appreciation for us, you can just drop a digital tip in the jar. Just tige the lapsed fan at gmail dot com or PayPal yep, send it our way like they did, and let us know what the sentiment is behind the extra vigue that's right for those fucking chairs. Are you

in a position to deliver? Boss? I am in as I guess yeah, Okay, we're gonna have to a good start. Ah yesh ship, we're Dusty Hello. Even when he's singing a techno song, he's like he's locked in a basement. It's just pain, that's all. All the Saint Fans. Graham a wonderful member of the Solar system. Always good to hear from him, and I want to appreciate his support on Patreon. Gabe MacDonald welcome in appreciate the pledge, Logan writes on Halloween Havoc eighty nine and now

Vira. You remember boss, how the Turner Home Entertainment folks were feeling ambitious in those early days of WCW pay per views and actually tried to help them promote it by bringing some celebrity star power to the table. Yes, is Logan's recollections. All right, here we go, hey, co chairs, after your Halloween Havoc eighty nine episode, and I needed a write in with

something I've been meaning to share with you guys for a while. You talked about Elvira a bit since she was in the commercials for Havoc eighty nine, and in twenty twenty one, she released her autobiography, Yours Cruelly Elvira. I recommend the book. It's an easy read, but it's still a funny and in depth detailing of her interesting career. I write to you for one passage though, which is relevant to last week's episode. At the end of

chapter twenty three, page twenty twenty, she writes, heights quote. Soon more appearances came my way, a third guest bottom on The Tonight Show, a presenter at the MTV Movie Award, MTV Awards, sorry not Movie Awards, MTV Awards, a host of Monday Night Football, a guest starring spot on the Magical World of Disney, and even co hosting even a coosting job on TBS's Halloween Havoc Wow, where I got to rub elbows with the likes of wrestling legends Rowdy Rody, Piper, Jesse Ventura, and Hulk Hogan.

Yeah, exactly, that's what happens. I don't remember them being in a crocket in eighty nine, or I do, Actually I do. I thought it wasn't that the wasn't it staying in Flair versus Hogan and Piper? Would? I mean, yeah, she meets those guys throughout her career and just like stuffs them into this one story. Well, she probably doesn't remember WrestleMania two versus Halloween havocaty nine. Yeah, well that's probably what she's thinking.

Oh yeah, it's probably one fucking thing in her mind. Like she doesn't I'm sure she doesn't know the difference between w WE and WCW. I don't know. It's just weird to remember Wrestlminga too is Halloween Havoc. I think she again, I think she remembers both things as being the same event, Okay, and I don't know, I mean maybe actually, and given her character, she probably I'm not surprised that she remembers Halloween havoc over WrestleMania.

Yeah, she's all gothy and showing her tits and shit. Well, she was representative of a particular moment in time. Yeah, that's true. So thanks for the dispatch slogan, Jesse Harrison, thank you very much for your support. We appreciate you throwing some coin at us via Patreon. Same to Cyrus the Virus, who recently uped his pledge to get a taste of that cinemat action A Ray Sanson, what's that? I said, Yes, Mike Pulin, thanks very much for that mote tier level support. Unbelievable stuff.

Zach wants us to know boss that, butware of dog still gives him anxiety. Oh I'm I'm not surprised that's it should wrot, he said. I watched all WWA pay per views live that year, and I was losing my shit when the feet dropped. Of course, being pretting internet at my house, at least I had no idea if it was just an issue for our box or what. I watched the screen hoping it would come back for what felt like hours on end until they came back on for the main event.

I recorded every WAFTV show and pay per view when I'm on my VCR, and was meticulous about not including dead space or commercials. So I, of course was sitting there the entire time, my finger hovering over the record button got Do I remember that? Man? Remember your VCR skills? Oh? God, yes, absolutely, you would hit I remember hitting the record button and then hitting the record again to pause recording. You didn't stop, yep, because if you stop it, it tended to march back two or three

seconds and clubs. Of course, of course, it causes an immense amount of problem. Did you ever try to edit commercials out of your recordings? Absolutely? Absolutely, I always did. I always tried to. What I would do is if for some reason, God, I can remember the fucking clicker I used to use too, so I would try as soon as the screen went to black, I tried to pause. If I happened to go a little too far, what I would do is try to rewind it.

I'd play it, I'd stop it for a second. I was always horrified at this because I was always convinced that whatever I was watching was gonna come right back right before, like way faster than any other commercial break in the history of time. And I would play it back and then pause it right when it and then i'd you know, try to get it as close as possible to showing no commercial interruption. Wow, so that it was just like a black screen. Yeah, rarely worked. Rarely worked. That's like,

damn it impossible. You know, it was so hard back then because there was always like a moment of delay, and I just you know, if it wasn't done completely right, you know, you'd you'd like you'd almost have to start recording again right as the last commercial was ending to starting your baseball swing in a batting cage before the ball even comes out, when you're in the ninety mile an hour one exactly exactly like you got you gotta be you

got to hit it. You got to start acting where it's going to be, not when it's already there. Yeah, And you couldn't always count on a straight second of black before they came back to or out of a commercial at all, not at all. And again you didn't know you could. Only you could only guess as to what the last commercial was going to be, right right, You never really knew. God, that's so high stakes.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was like the you know, and then and then you get to sit there and you every time you watch that tape and you watch that failure of really getting the proper amount like just black to coming back, which there was also that little glitch anyway, there was that little tape glitch that happened, which was also very annoying, like you never got it perfect, oh like seamless, like fade out and fade back

in. No. I brought it to the story before. One thing I used to do is I had a lot of rap tapes, a lot of swears on them, and if I want to play them, you know, around my parents and car or something, I would try to dub them to another tape and hit fast forward over the swears. That's really funny, you know. And it was. It was hard. It took many it took many, many attempts, and I didn't always get it. But it's it's

similar to what we're talking about here. Yeah. I was so like Zach, so meticulous about recording pay per views in the mid to late nineties or anything wrestling related, and I had to like label the things the same, and I would break the tab so that no one could tape over. Remember you could take the little black tab off. Oh yeah, absolutely, yep, I definitely do that. I mean what, I chew on them sometimes, but I spit them out. I mean, you know, I remember

I was so there. There was a song do you do you remember song? Mister Wendell? No, do you remember that by arrested Development Maybe mister Windo, Yeah, mister Windo. Anyway, I Kiss went Await, Kiss went o Wait had a version of this. I mean, I'm sure other radio stations did too, But Kiss went O Wait had had a version of this song that involved like it was just an upbeat. It was a total remix of the song with with kind of more like dance pianos and whatever.

Like. It was very it was very upbeat versus the the original version of the song. It was a little more melancholy. And so I loved this new version, and so I wanted so badly and I tried to find like you couldn't find it in stores. You couldn't find this remix, And so I wanted so badly to get this. So I would sit by the fucking radio, yes, all right, and I had a tape ready to go. I was actually, this was what I was gonna do, okay,

because you could do this back then. I was going to My plan was to tape over on the on the on the the the the professional cassette tape that I had. I was going to tape over the version on on the fucking professional tape with this remix, so that whenever I listened to the the the album, I would have the remix in there. Except I didn't know at the time that to record over tapes it had to cover the little things,

the little tabs on t did tape on top. So I'm sitting there waiting for it, and then it finally hits probably waiting for like an hour by a fucking radio to get this one song, and I keep trying to press record and it won't go down, and I'm freaking out, like why is this happening? Why is this happening? And then I realized a wait, like why do my other tapes record these? And I said, oh,

they have these fucking tabs, so fucking pissed off. Yeah, those those honestly were lessons you had to learn the hard way when we were guess exactly, but what what what a fucking discovery it was? I mean, oh then it was. It was a game changer after that because you could repurpose all these useless tapes that fucking Columbia House or whatever would send to your house too, exactly. So I never you know, it took me until I'm going to say, like five years ago for me for me to able

to be able to find that that remix of the song. Wow. I tried like every now so it would happen every now and again, you know, like I forget about it obviously, and uh uh, you know, all throughout high school. But then when when the Internet became a thing, I would, you know, oh you know what, especially when Napster was a thing, Okay, I was like I would have gone the hunt for hunt. I'm a hunt. Could never find it, could never find it

at all. I've download so many fucking versions of mister Wendell and was all the same goddamn original song. Unreal. I'd go on YouTube, you know, like like when YouTube became a thing, I would go on you know, try to like every now and again, just like huh, you know, I haven't looked for that in a while. How was he even find this fucking version of the song? Never never ever found the version of the song. And then I don't even know how I stumbled on it, but

I did eventually find it. I was like, holy shit, Well, holy shit. Used to be that simple, you know, you were allowed to have those kind of missions, you know, and just to pursue them in your own solitude. You know, you didn't put a message out to a message board or a Reddit forum and get it solved in ten seconds.

You just had to wander along into your discovery one day. And for Zach, he's sitting there trying to keep the integrity of his No Dead Space v VHS collection intact during the outage that was the Beware of Dog pay per view. So he's sitting there, finger hovered over the record button, not wanting to resume recording until they got the live feedback from the arena there in South Carolina, and he writes, I did not go to the bathroom, get

a drink or avert my gaze from the screen for one fucking second. How could you I mean that that that feed was out like an hour and a half I did. I left, As I talked about in that episode, I left the house for a little while and came back in and was like, what still not on? It's unreal. You can imagine the stress, Like, Okay, now I have to press it to press it, look away, not look back. I'm actually so related. Didn't I didn't have to go through that on that. This wasn't this was not This was not

a pay per view that would have been good for you. No, the way this played out, I imagine I would have gone through a lot of trauma, so much uncertainty as to whether it's actually a problem on your end. Yep. God. When they announced the replacement Beware of Dog Part two, that was pretty cool, And it was super cool when they later showed pictures of what happened when the lights went out, having all those matches more or less than the dark. I can't remember if those pictures were on a

TV show or in WWF magazine. It was on Aazon raw. They showed a quick clip of a Austin and Savio in the dark. I know that. Side note. I went to the raw taping for everything leading up to the show in Sioux City, Iowa. The angle with HBK and Bulldog involving Diana was very confusing and random to me as a thirteen year old. Not quite as confusing as seeing Golddust groping an unconscious Undertaker after mankind put him out.

It could be my memories inaccurate, but as I remember it, Goldust was legit trying to locate the Bone and the Bone Skull Crew that night. This would be the last time my dad's friend Martin dagged along to a WWF show. Yeah, So we talked about that bit in the episode, about how those reports that when they taped that episode of raw. Of course it never made air, this part of it that Goldust actually was feeling up the thigh of the Undertaker, and it's got to take advantage of the fact that

because he's dead, he can't quite do anything about it. He had to lay there dead. And I asked Ach about that. He came back. Yes, actually, I do one hundred percent remember that it was actually Goldles licking his way up the Undertaker's thigh. That's insane. And when I said that to him, he said, yes, I do remember that until you confirmed it, though, he writes I had chalked it up in my head

to my imagination. Oh wow. The overall segment that occurred in felt very long, and Mark Callaway had it to lay still the entire time, the good old days. That's it. That's all right there, Fluke Jones. We want to thank you very much for your pledge on Patreon. My friend Rob wants us to know about another podcast that we've inspired. It's great to hear from members of the Solar System reaching in and definitely definitely cool to see

and we wish him the best in that endeavor. It's really want to give him shout out. It's really cool to see what he's working on there and how Tia Left can play a role and inspiring that content. Ben, what are they doing? It's that I just had it. Let's see it's Marvel related. Oh cool? Ye. But Rob's out there if anyone wants to reach out, I'm sure Rob Holden podcast Google will get you where you need to be. But he can. He send us so many messages and now

I'm having trouble finding it. Let's see podcast you inspired? Brother? Oh, I'm getting nowhere. Sorry, back to it, let us see here. Now I'm all off my game. There we go, all right, Chad Lindquist, thank you very much for the pledge. Constant supporter in our corner. Roland Salaurent am I staying that right, Saint Laurent, thank you

very much. Damien Thorn, thank you for the pledge. As always chatter about Miami of Ohio when we were talking about Brian Pillman, probably at the eighty nine Halloween Havoc Show, like why would that be the name of the place, But Joseph Rousso points out Miami of Ohio is named after for the Native Americans that populated the area, right, I've always want my cousin went to That was always funny thing for me. My cousin went to the University

of Miami in Ohio, and I was always like what the fuck? Like why why is that? It's just so confusing. It's so confusing, Like you know, Northwestern is in Chicago, right, It's like, how is that in the northwest? Right? But it's of course, you know, in the founding of the nation, before there was much settlement past Illinois. Good time for that shit? What it was the northwest of the country.

It was very bizarre, is indeed, Kirk writes to us, writes on Patreon and this is relevant to I think be aware of dog as it is. I was eight years old. My dad and I ordered this show and had no idea where there was a blackout. The screen was just blue the whole time. It kicked back on for the main event. Afterwards, I went outside to shoot hoops and tripped chasing after a missed shot and broke my wrist. That's tremendous the things we were. That was probably the son now.

I broke my wrist two summers before that, jumping in onto a hoop that was like nine feet tall off the hood of a car, and I tried to grab it with both hands but kind of came up short, so just grabbed it with one and I swung off the rim and couldn't hold on with one hand and came crashing down. How did it feel to be an idiot so bad? And like your hand feels like so numb that yeah, it feels like you're touching someone else's hand when you touch your own hand because

you lose that feeling. Yep. Matthew of Madison, thank you for the pledge, my friend. We appreciate it. That's a good point. Cliff asks brothers. You can't post this stuff while I'm at work. How am I supposed to explain to my superiors that I soiled myself because a cast just launched itself right into my cinnamon ring? Well, I mean just say that and see what happens from wrong with that. Beware of Doug and Vengeance.

This one from our friend Jeff Boss. If you could, you could be so kind to regale the solar system, I will do what I can. Gentlemen, thank you for your recent through two recent episodes that tell the stories of me going lapsed but getting sucked back into the sport of kings in the mid nineties, I would always lapse from wrestling in the summer. Summer was

for playing baseball. I don't have any memories of Beware of Dog, but you mentioned how this show took place around the same time Scott Hall went to WW. I hadn't really watched much wrestling at all in ninety six. I had pretty much weaned myself out of wrestling when I went back to school in the fall of ninety six. But I hear kids talking Razor moaning Diesel are on WW, and even better, they're going by their real names Scott Hall and Kevin Nash. Then I learned that whole Cogan is a bad guy and

he's team with these two. Needless to say, I had to learn more. It only took one conversation with the quote wrestling kids to get me fully reinvested in the fake fighting Again, your Vengeance podcast brought back similar memories. By ninety nine, I was also playing basketball for the school, and really at the time wrestling was strange, the ministry stuff, that the gross out stuff, And even at fourteen years old, I knew Russo wasn't for me.

Here's another pay per view. I think he means unforgiven. Yeah, I was. I was coming around to that. Yeah, Vengeance is a two thousand and one development innovation. That's post nine to eleven. Literally, I got a nine to eleven email right here, so it's gonna be great. Here's another paper view. I have no memories up. But again, if it wasn't for my wrestling friends, you'd be twenty dollars poor every month. In twenty twenty four, I got to think, and why did I

watch? Why did I watch? Again? If I didn't watch any nine wrestling at all, But it's the SmackDown video games for PS one. I had a friend who owned the game, so when he fired it up, I learned about all these new guys in the FED. Chris Jericho is in w and Alley. Who are these Dudley boys? And why is it so awesome when they throw guys through tables? The Hardys look goofy in retrospect they look they always just look goofy. No retrospect there, but as a fourteen

year old in two thousand, they were cool as hell. Eddie Guerrero was there too, and redacted. I had no idea who Kurt Angle was either, but fuck I was hooked when I saw this motherfucker throwing Germans and locking ankles. I really appreciate the way, after ten years, the Lapse fan can still connect me to my childhood and help me make sense of who I was then and who I am today. Wrestling's power over us is crazy,

isn't it. I love these two episodes because these are completely random, shitty pay per views no one thought twice about a week after they happened, and your research and relentless pursuit of the story tells us a lot of important shit happened here. Love the casual no any format you are going right now and can't wait for what's next. Jeff, Yeah, you we're distrapping ourselves in pal They have no idea what's around the corner. No, not at all,

Gummy Davidson, thank you very much for your support. We appreciate the pledge. Christian notes on our hellomeon habitcaty nine show. I don't know if anyone ever noted this, but the Robin Green character portrayed by woman was based on who do you think, uh, oh, Robin Gibbons ing Ning Ning. That's correct, very good, Robin Green being a play in the name Robin Gibbons Christian Wrights, who by nineteen eighty nine was seen as a gold

digger who was only after Mike Tyson's money. Many people swore she was the reason he fell off and ended up losing to Buster Douglas, who just happened to be for my hometown of Columbus. Yes, Robin Gibbons. She was a star of television right stage screen. Yeah, she did some stuff. But of course she accused Mike Tyson of was it physical sexual battery? I think both was both. I think it was some kind of domestic abuse something

like that. Yeah, that was some definitely a flashpoint story in the late eighties. So good call out there. Leave it up to wrestling, you know, to see that and go that's heat sure and see her as the heel. Yeah, oh yeah. Carlos Mascarenas coming in with such a bold and vainy mote tier level bledge right out of the gate. It's important to remember she was the problem. God it comes Carlos celebrating greatness, he writes to the Chairman aka the real two dudes with attitudes. I used to think

I knew what a wrestling podcast would or should sound like. I was right until I heard the way this the motherfucking TLF podcast is, was and always will be. Replace Ringo and George with actual talent and John and Paul with chair shots to the ego, and you have my exact opinion of what true greatness really is. John Lennon getting shot is just a shooter hitting an easy target. Meanwhile, the LAPS Fan podcast shoots all targets at will and drops

the haters like a bad dungeon of doom gimmick. Yes, I've never been afraid to express my love and or devotion for anything or anyone, and as such, I want to say that you have my undying support forever and the interest of redundancy. Here's some shit you already know. You're the best there is, was, and the very fucking best there ever will be. Holler. After being a freeloader for four months, Rationale kicked my leg out of

my other leg, and I saw the fucking light. The content that you two deliver on abashedly and with passionate fervor convinced me to choke slam a fifty spot through a work table with shoot, goddamn intentions. I'm proud to do so. Yes, based on the passion and work that you both so easily show every single time, I can't imagine what a four to seven hour podcast would require. The research and show preparation has always stood out to me.

You're truly exceptional. I loved King of the Ring ninety five, the show I first heard you guys murder. Holy shit, that was the second episode, wasn't it? Ah? Yeah, I think it was. The Lap's nation always has a love story and connecting experience, and I'll make mine very short, I stated, stared rather at the television set when I was five and thought I watched what wrestling taught me, only to turn forty and listen to what wrestling was still teaching me, and with more love and detail.

The real megapowers are Jack and Jpak, the guy who mispronounces his surname, and the dude who lets Vince McMahon make periodical voice takeovers. I worked fifty four hours per week on average in Colorado Springs, the city Goldberg dropped Pike's peeked down several feet the night he took a stop side to the head before he speared Ron Breese and finished Raven for the US title. Yeah, that

was a big night. I was at the World Areada that night, April twentieth, nineteen ninety eight, and I've never been more grateful for wrestling nostalgia since finding your podcast and humbly joining the lapsed fan Patreon. Thank you for truly for all you do for us listeners. Believe it or not, it extends further than just the content. It's brotherhood, it's a listening fandom. Most importantly, it's a way of life. Agreed. You've heard testimonials much

better than mine, but I hope you understand they're all true. You make life better. That's why we can't stop listening ever lapsed since ninety nine. Thanks Ja and Jack Carlos, Well, thank you Carlos. This is pretty much why we do it right there. Yeah, I agree they were just bullshitting, and people come back to us and say, this is what it means that you share that bullshit with everybody. That's a sustainable model as far as I'm concerned. Zach writes Jr. Saying Stay is the breakout drop of

twenty twenty four so far gets him every fucking time. Shane Sinclair, we want to thank you for the pledge. Andrew Mackinson, Thank you very much for your increased vig to your fucking chairman. Jeff's back with mora scar tissue from his newspaper reporting days. He writes, as a former print newspaper reporter myself, I obsess over the lapsed editor. I imagine that these nineteen eighties

and nineties newspapers he touched down on were pretty blue collar. The editor was a local guy who held the city accountable but still love the city he covered, So while he wasn't looking to bury anyone, he thought integrity was important. His reporters felt the same, so they thought it was kind of fun to have wrestling in town, but they had to let the public know they knew it wasn't real. Yes, then I imagine this nutcase commando type dropping

like a nuclear weapon. He cares too much. That's the issue. Hitting, hitting the editor and reporter, hitting them, hitting them he does. He does commit acts of He strikes them. He strikes indeed, brandishing a weapon, tearing apart their cheap offices, screaming at their readers, just the general chaos that he causes over the course of a few days before jumping out of a helicopter and lands right in the center of town as he yells for

them to all fuck off. Yeah, in this scenario, I picture John Candy, he writes as the original newspaper editor and Mike Haggerty is his reporter. That's funny. Definitely can see Candy as that well meeting local guy. Yeah, that's very funny. Fucking ay, that's really funny. William Webb has a good question, is a community can we agree on the phonetic spelling

of bulldogs asp I think that is becoming an important sound to TLF. I would say there's the It definitely starts with an H. That's what that's what we can do. H A A A G H is what I would like A Really I think of more O's in there, like he could be It could be that too. He's so deprived of like oxygen basically, you know what I mean, He's so he can't breathe in without having like crack in it. Oh yeah, exactly, They're right. That's the thing. There's

just constant crack going on. Why why did we do this to ourselves? I mean, Summer Slam ninety two was such a core memory. Now all I think about is him smoke because he ruined it. That's why you ruined it. It is his fault, isn't it? Fuck him? It is rest in peace ruined it. David Melson, thanks for the pledge. Welcome to the Executive producer tier. We've course covered WWF European Rampage in Milan, Italy in nineteen eighty three with some of the most money commentary you've ever heard

from Dan Peterson. The most Italian of names, of course, a fucking the most fucking you know, mill America Italian I've ever I've ever fucking heard in my life, like Domino's Pizza Italian exactly. Yeah, James writes into us subject line ww Italy co chairs. I can't give you any inside on WWF in nineteen ninety three Milan, but do have an Italian wrestling recollection for you, and this is probably the closest they'll get to being relevant. I

wrote in during the Bruno tribute that my grandparents were huge Brutal fans. By the time they arrived at America, Bruno was already WWWF champion. I'm not sure if they were fans before, but they were lifelong fans, and since my parents worked a lot of nights and weekends, I spent a lot of time with them, watching mostly wrestling and boxing. A few times my grandparents took me and my sister to Italy to see the country, visit family,

et cetera. I remember my Italian family asking me about what it was like, as you do with a kid, and I would tell them wrestling, among other things. Nothing out of the ordinary, just friendly conversation with extended family. A few years later we visited it again and I had already started my obsession with reading wrestling history and learning about the different promotions. By this time, I was a teen and also had the knowledge that former w F

jobber. Salvator Blomo was a big star in Catch Brother, Salvator Blomo in Catch Boss. Yeah, I can, I can, I can picture, I can, I can. I can picture sal Blomo as a as a catch talent. That's that's what the girls said in his high school, that's for sure. When I asked my family if they remembered him, their response was essentially, no, you still watch that stuff? Yeah, yes, yes, you know that's just fake, right, what's the matter with you?

Well, Bruno was real, but mmmm. That is when I learned that the shame of being a pro wrestling fan is in fact, pause international shame. Ring the bell, Robert Hayes, thank you very much for your pledge. Eric Holman, Welcome to the executive producer to here, Tony Fernandez, thanks for the vote of confidence in your increased pledge. We appreciate it. Wal to figurero Well, Welcome into the executive producer here. Zachariah Rariya,

thank you very much for your support. Trevor Thomas Shiro want to thank you very much for the cake. Same to you, Brett Robinson, welcome in. Thanks for deeming us worthy. Michaelson points out a mistake I think we made on the Beware of Dog show. He writes, the first time take her face mankind and TV was in your house. Seven good friends, better enemies, not King of the Ring ninety six. I always think of King of the Ring is their first collision? Really they wrestle at that show?

Is he making me correct something that wasn't even wrong? That happens too often? Good for right now here, because I'm very curious. I don't recall that at all. I remember being gold Dusty wrestled on that show. Umm it is. Yeah, it was dark match, so it doesn't count. No, I'm sure they wrestled more times than that if you count house

shows. Dark matches don't count. On a nice try view, I appreciate the effort, but no, Peter Tavares, let me let me say this, like wrestling always says, if it didn't happen on TV, it didn't happen, right, Well, it just you know, how was I didn't know that in a pre internet era, it didn't air on television tonight ninety six. You know, Peter Tavares, thank you very much for your pledge. We appreciate the support. Same to you, Jeff Poppus and Amelia Za

don always appreciate that support. Jason Penitext, thanks very much. Welcome to the VIP tier. Ben Oddsley bumping up that support to get a taste of Under the Cinemat and all that awaits him in the Executive producer tier. Indeed, Timothy McCarty pointed out something that Vince said not too long ago that I think is really pressing it. Just one quote and so man on coffee quote, I think you said this, I always have a pot going. Just

think just how you just think about that across the generations. You know, ye think about Vince as such as he was in nineteen seventy six. I was a pod going Canary jellow suit hosting his dad's TV show, Sanka on Tap. Oh, yes, I mean, come on, the guy always he bruised like he wouldn't believe. The guy believes in coffee. Yes he is, definitely. Yeah. Some people believe in in God, some people believe in whatever he believes in coffee percolation. I'll say, in college,

I also believe in coffe. What a different kind? John Coff God, No, you believed in the three largest on when it was time to get your paper done on rough nights. On rough nights. It was definitely three three larges from the fucking the Sea store down there. That's how you would do it. Man, last day of the semester, I have four assignments that I haven't handed in. I'm not going to bed. I got four

I got like three papers. I haven't written one movie. I have to edit all the way and you know, and I also got to a study for a final that I'm going to fail. I still remember that one time you were like weaking your legs walking down the stairs in the dorm because you had hadn't slept in like three days. Yeah, I was like, there were that that was the you know, I remember one time, you know

it was it was one time before before this. You came to my house for like a couple of days in spring break, and I remember I had not slept in two days, oh, because I just had so much shit to do and I was in so I just was just killing myself, just devastating, just like so tired. You could scream yep, that's college. Yes, that's right, that's reality. Rich Moulton, thank you very much,

appreciate this. Aboard Ethan Bowman. Same to you, Sal Roma and Daniel Beasley and Matt Brown coming in strong in the ten dollars tier, and Luke Ashby pumping up his pledge. These are all folks who are here TOOFO near and dear to our hearts. Stephen wats or Palin Ireland rights. I always associate Roger Moore with childhood holidays. Also, he used to do ads on long haul aer Lingus flights for UNICEF. Oh yeah, sure, yeah,

well we're gonna get into his uniff tasting. Oh that's great and looking forward to that, encouraging you to donate spare change of unused currency to UNIEF. For years I was convinced James Bond flew on Aerlingus for missions more like cunnelingis Steve. Yeah, that's exactly right. He also rates that every what's that he said wrong Lingus. He also rates that every Christmas season in Ireland the National Broadcaster does a run of Bond films and it always is almost exclusively.

The more films. That's interesting. I imagine they're probably out of them all. I would imagine they might be the easiest. They're how because they're definitely more crowd pleasers, because they they can appeal to more audiences because they're definitely since they're generally cheesier, they're a little more fun, you know. Yeah, and like you can definitely get more families watching that. And I would imagine too that you know, they're probably not I mean, they're probably

all expensive to to get the rights to. I imagine all James Bond properties are expensive. But I don't know, I somehow get the vibe that the Roger Moore ones are probably on the cheaper end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wouldn't think. I wouldn't think the Sean Connery ones would would would come at a at a discount. Yeah. No. Trevor Hendy, thank

you very much for the support. Has always we appreciated on Patreon. Adam too writes Wes Anderson should write and direct a seventeen minute short film about Kevin Nash waking up in a Milan. In Milan, I like a Milan better ordering a cappuccino from room service and then hanging around the hotel desk just so he has the opportunity to give tourist directions. I sound like a Wes Anderson

joint to you. Totally does Oh my god, It's like he's you know it takes you like forty minutes to find out that his whole family was killed, like yep, and then you look at him the whole different way. Frank Otderbine, thank you very much for your pledge, Joshua fairly, thank you so very much for the support. Nico writes on Patreon. I hate to correct Brett. After all, he is my hero, and I thank him for letting me be that. That's fine. It's a really good line.

I thank you, Oh oh god, I thank him for letting me let him be that. That's a good one. If you go to a Brett autograph signing Brett, I just want you to know, I want to thank you for letting me let you be my hero. Sit. Thirdly, just stare at them. Smoked a bowl in a clue, But the song that reached number four in the UK charts was in fact slam Jam from the Wrestlingia album, not the song he featured on. It never been a right time to say goodbye? Uh So probably took credit for for a single that

didn't quite uh didn't quite line up with what ascended the charts. There now that can that can happen? Sure? Totally. Josh doesn't give a fuck. He wrote nine to eleven turned me into Bob Holly. Literally Jit Greeting's co chairs and the solar system. If you choose to read this on the cast, what we are Josh? Sorry, no turning back now. Yeah. Today I reached episode two ninety three of my Hike up the Ever Growing

Mound lapsed. I know this episode was from three years back, but I wanted to share my story from that day and some thoughts on the episode. In total. I grew up and at the time of nine eleven lived in Sarnak, a small town in the Adirondecks. That to me, right there, that's the sentence of a lifetime. I grew up in the time of

nine to eleven, So did I it? Just a grade sentence. That morning I woke up and for some reason, which I would later discover, I hadn't been woken by the music on the radio when I was late for work. So I hauled ass across town to the Burger King the fast Feod Joint not Jerry Lawler. The town seemed awful quiet for the time, but I really hadn't thought about it. I got to the BK noticed we had a radio on the counter, and I said, awesome, we'd get a

radio. And as I clocked and I saw the paper, and suddenly everything made sense. There was no music on, so I hadn't woken up, and why the town was so silent? And I was bissed. That's the subject line, partially because of the event and partially because two days later was my twenty first birthday and I had planned an epic party, one which definitely was not going to happen. Now, yeah, said on my twenty first birthday, I watched this SmackDown. God, I wish I had you guys

for company that night and never since. It truly would have helped. I find it disappointing. What sad? What? And terrifying? What that in twenty years as of when this episode dropped, we went from so unified as a people too is fucking divided in toxic as Brett Hart and Sean Michaels. That may be in poor taste given Brett's mom died on and because of nine to eleven. But no, sacred cows, right, what the fuck is he talking about? Brett's mom died because of nine to eleven? Could you

repeat to say that again? It's a word salad that may be in poor taste given Brett's mom died on and because of nine to eleven. She died in September eleventh, not two thousand and one. Maybe she did. I don't think so, Allen see Selen, Ellen Hot, Why you're looking me up? She died in November fourth, two thousand and one. Are you touching me? No, Ellen hat Bowsome. Maybe we made a joke about that that. I wouldn't put it past us. She that she caused nine

to eleven. No, I didn't say that, Boss. I'm totally with you. Josh Wrights. I fucking hate Bruce Richard. Here we go, good bitch hard instead of pritch Yard right, more than Jack hates laps Nash well nearly since Brute's bitch had actually exists, speaking of, I keep expecting Jack is going to hit the gunshot while Boss is in laps Nash mode. No, I wouldn't dare shoot on Big keV. I wouldn't dare. He's from Detroit after all. Sorry, he's been part of the mean streets.

Oh when Jeff Hardy in a room with the burger sums up what kind of asshole he is, Because you know he's just feeling like a burger. I'm just feeling like a burger, you know, I just feel like a burger. Have you seen any of these videos of him screaming in the woods. I cannot watch him. I cannot, I won't. It's it's just no nop. You're gonna classify yourself as obsolete, I I he does, I classify him as being obsolete. Well that's that's funny because he beat you to

it. Well that's fine. But you know what I don't. I don't, I don't not. Nothing he says counts to me. So fuck him, Jeff Hardy, bitch, you come on. He's given so much to the business, Oh my god, so much joy. He's such a fucking idiot. Why he's such a loser? Oh winner draw superstar carry retired eighteen years ago. Miserable. I gotta keep thinking things to say, Well, I find a link for you. Oh my god, why are you doing

that? I'm not doing anything. I'm just saying I think it's probably pretty important that I listened to him and look at his ugly face and his uh fucking stretched out ear lobes from his uh his earrings and ship and I just want to take scissors to and cut. It's pretty much it's pretty much over with TNA for them. Yeah, another another abort a mission. Oh my god? How am I coming up short on this? It's all I've been seeing story of their lives. Okay, let's see see if you can.

Can you give me any feedback on this? I don't know if it's gonna work. It might not work, but I appreciate any feedback you may. I'm letting of, letting down. My heart is done with breaking other hearts of human beings, open minds that close down, seeing me for who I really am, Dotsi's also gary, damn. I feel love consuming me. Something feels less humanly, mother than myself, mother myself in lighting, mother than myself, mother myself. Yeah. See, even the fucking wildlife is

pissed off at him, Like shut up? Do you see him trying to express what's inside? I don't know why you have to be such a hater about it. Nothing inside to express? You see the passion, There's nothing in there. He is completely hollowed out by all the fucking drugs and recoveries that he's gone through. He's worthless. That's so unfair. That's so unfair. It's unfair. Like, what's unfair is him putting that kind of shit

out there to get responses, because it's absolutely atrocious. He's got as much fucking musical talent as as a as a as a fucking dead frog. Dead frog, Yeah, what a choice? A dead frog? Fuck A living frog wouldn't have been any better. No, but a dead one, all right, one that doesn't even have the strength or the ability to fucking make a croaking sound. Okay, that's better. I don't know. I get so upset about it. I thought you would have liked that clip. Well

you just fucking look at me. He just he's always hooded. He's yes, he always always has a very tight hood reminds me of And this is where I think it really, it really makes me feel sad, is because

here's a guy who who made it. Okay, whether I like him or not, Yeah, success right, okay, But here he is trying to do something and all that comes across is one of those fucking idiot guys who can't those those idiot fucking uh middle aged to elderly men who still think there's a chance at making it big something doing something like this they're still doing fucking you know, uh like brewery gigs and ship like that. And I'm not

listen some of them. Of course, A much love to those drivers, but like and I'm not trying to take anyone's not trying to But but you know what, there comes a point, okay, much like what Roddy Piper said to Vergil, there comes a point. And Jeff Hardy he's got no point at all. There is no point to Jeff Hardy. H have you said what needs to be said? You're satisfied now. I won't be satisfied

until I never know, Okay, then I'll be satisfied. He's not that offensive, he's completely just because he shaves like lines in the side of his face, just because again, just because he he needs to stay this like the same attire, the same look, the same style that he had twenty five years ago. Just stop it. Except the fact that it's okay to change. I knew I was minded for gold, finally got it. Except

that it's okay to change. That's all he's been saying all these years about Jeff Hardy, Folks, through the entirety of TNH and all of his travails. That's all it came down to pretty simple. Apparently not, Holly cautiously writes, relative to the WWF in Europe, I actually believe. In Spain he was known as Randy the Gaspacho man, savage good spots O maham with the with the topass rope elbow drop. We have the best listeners ever on the top his rope. Oh fuck, that's amazing. That is tremendous.

David Barrant with a fucking home run. This probably was my favorite one of the whole time period. In the mailbag he just wrote, he wrote, Dan Peterson drips balsamic while calling matches. Damn fucking right he does, speaking of balsamic drips. Dude drips balsamic. Yeah, some people, some people sweat. Yep, he fuckings he gets it, rains buckets, he drips balsamic. He gets dark vinegar coming like he's fucking ultimate Warrior in nineteen ninety

two. There's more to it, exactly, like exactly, but instead of that being some mysterious good, it's balsamic vinegar. Yes, Adon Peterson rips balsamic while calling matches, looking like Rudy Giuliani's sweating hair die while committing crimes. I was just brilliantly observed. We don't hear a lot from him, so just to air drop that when yeah, my day, Ryan writes,

I'm not gonna lie that Jerry Lawler Christmas sounds fucking awesome. No family to deal with, sign me up. Oh yeah, you say that now, Yeah, exactly say that now, and then you know, you realize that at four point thirty it's time to put on your pajamas right and act like you're a child when you're you know, seventy years old. Well, Jeopardy's done, must be bedtime. Sanna's coming in the morning. Oh, that's the thing. Like he's gonna take it. You know, he's gonna do

his own Santa gifting. You know, I believe that Jerry other puts trees for himself under the tree I do. He does, he does, and you know what he and he acts surprised when he wakes up in the morning, Santa came. He'll say to nobody to himself. These are facts sitting here waiting for the problem. Will it arrive the only time will tell. Brendan Lloyd, thanks for the pledge, Appreciate the aboord, my friend. It's always uh, it's always deeply. It instills a great sense of gratitude

in us. Brian Sours, thanks for the pledge, we appreciated. Joe tell Ovi, Ted Toll, the rights for Telly Steiner would be a way better name for bron Breaker. So awesome, Like that's like we never would come across that, but it's just they're out there. They're one day we're going to find him. If it's been set on a wrestling show, we're going to find him. And for Telly Seiner is way up there. JW writes on Patreon about the Rouge sneakers. I recall the first one I got

super young, early eighties. The pocket was close to inaccessible. I think it loaded horizontal. Oh my god. The later one was more of a pocket for an adult it would be useless, but I had payphone change in mine. One was Velcrow when one was Zipper too. Don't really remember which was which. Who put those on the market? Soap bizarre? Jeff Wright's God, these lawlor stories make me think I need to check in on my

unmarried friends and family to make sure they're doing okay. I would He also wants us to do a recurring Kevin Nash Raids the Rick Steves Guidebook podcast. That'd be fucking great. Jerry Zegarelli, thanks for the We appreciate it. Welcome to the VIP, tre Brian Sowers, thanks for the support. Same to you, Max Griffno, we definitely appreciate it, don't all rights. How am I supposed to go into living living as per normal in a world

where for Telly Steiner now dominates my consciousness. It's a great question. I struggled with it myself. We talk about Mama sorrow a lot. Scott writes to us a subject line my mom, Oh my God, right around Mother's Day this year, my mom. Indeed, Greetings co chairman. I just randomly thought of the interview that you did with Fred, the wrestling fan that went on Wheel of Fortune a couple of times at least I think his name was Fred, Yes, it was Fred. That episode feels like it was

so long ago. I remember talking to my mom a day or two after hearing that episode and telling her some of the behind the scenes details that he dropped. She's a huge Wheel of Fortune fan, so I figured she'd be interested. I told her that you guys asked all the questions that she'd probably ask if she met someone that had been on the show you got a kick out of it, and asked me to send her the podcast, oh oh, so she could listen later. I told her I would, knowing that

I could just never send it and she'd forget all about it. I was right. It's funny. I'm just now realizing that I've written you guys about my maha a couple of times in the past. The last time I wrote to you was during the Scott Hall tribute. I talked about my mom taking me to the Hogan versus Goldberg Nitro, and us witnessing a bunch of redneckcl slurs at at Scott Hall in one of the Georgia Dome parking areas. Also,

fucking that's Scott Hall. Okay, yeah, Like I also wrote to you about the time my buddy and I were crouch chopping at the neighbor's dog. So my mom got a call telling her that we had been whacking off in front of the animals. Can I I'm hello, Hello, I just want to tell you I saw one of your friends. I saw your son and one of his friends. They were masturbating on animals. Are you okay? With that. Yes, is that what you've taught your son to do? Yes, I have. I taught him how to jerk off in front

of fucking animals. I wish that I was sharing something more like that this time, savvly. My mom passed away a month ago. She had been battling liver disease for the past nine years. She was put on a transplant list, but eventually turned into cancer. Sorry man. After two more years of treatment, she was finally declared cancer free and thus moved up the list

for her liver transplant. She had the transplant and right before Thanksgiving twenty twenty three, and I've been recovering so smoothly, but she suddenly just started having trouble catching your breath. After about six months, she was put on oxygen, but after a few weeks they intubated her and put her on ventilator because she just wasn't getting better. My sister was convinced that my mom could hear the people around her while she was in her medically induced coma. She talked

to her a lot while while she was like that. I brought up the idea of playing music or something for her to listen to when we oh, I have a bad feeling about this when we couldn't be in the room. This led to a later conversation with one of my cousins, who joked that if I were ever in that situation, he'd put some AirPods in my ear and play the lapsed fan for me. Mom said on that ventilator for a week. Before Organs reached the point of no return, the family came together

and made the decision to turn off live support. When the time came, my sister noticed that it was actually time for her for Wheel of Fortune to start. She played that night's episode from some app on her phone and placed it by our mom's head. We figured she'd appreciate us letting her listen to one last episode. It wasn't until later that we realized she couldn't actually see

the puzzles, so it was probably really frustrating, but I digress. I hoped to someday be able to afford the mote tier on page Tran and Wrestle Mommy sounds so fucking funny, and every time I hear a clip, I'm reminded of some of the insane things my mom would say in reaction to pro wrestling. The last time she ever watched wrestling with me was about a year ago when she showed up at my house while I was watching an old w c W pay perview. I pointed to the Hollywood blonde I pointed, pointed

to Hollywood blondes eara. Steve Austin said, do you know who that is? She said, Oh, yeah, that's Rick Flair. Conversation. Okay, I'll say this. I I was dreading that that he while she was in the coma, that he might have played that episode for her, the Wheel of Fortune ship. That would have Yeah, that might not have worked. No, it might not have work, but you know what, maybe it would have Anyway. I'm sorry for the novel, but thank you for

everything. You guys do. Love your parents while you can and force them to watch sports entertainment bullshit more often. Scott, sound your your mama sorrow stuff, you know. Inspiring? Yeah, inspiring. That appreciation for the moms out there definitely was a mother's day to remember. As we dropped the one hundredth episode of Wrestling Mommy did we did Technica nineteen oh two. Thank you very much for the media pledge. We appreciated. We've talked a lot

about you. Know that WWF European Tour and just the WAF European tours of the Hasbro era. It was tough because you know, there wasn't a lot said about these shows in Italy or that particular show in Italy. There's you know, broad stroke stuff about the tours that people remember. We conveyed what Brett says in his book, for instance, about a lot of the tours, and he has some great memories. But our pal Zach thought, you

know, maybe we can dial this thing up a bit. Brother, Maybe we can hear from somebody who was on the road with WWF at the time and who just has a way with stories and who may have in fact replicated his Beverly Brothers match at European Rampage. Oh get they Jack, how about bloody hell, you're looking great, that's thinking Colonia wearing mate smells like bloody rotten sidings which would be laying in the sun for five days. Can imagine that, mate, And you know what that smells like? Mate w w

in Prairinching Hall of Fame, the here but like Luke a mate. Before I gone any further, This shout out was booked from Zach Volk your mate. He must love it for me to do this shout out to you anyhow. He's asked me if there's any stories from the Europe to in nineteen ninety

three. Well, mate, I'm pretty blank on those weeks. We were going to Europe twice a year, maybe three times a year, and then and then at that time, and I I remember I remember one of nineteen ninety two and in the Wembley Stadium in England when Davy Boy, the British Bulldog, Davy Boy fought Brett Hart. That was for the title match, and that was a big show and we were on that. That was in

the Wembley Stadium, the old Wembley Stadium, and it held me. I think we had ninety six thousand people there, something like that, four hundred and ninety six four or ninety four six, some ridiculous number. And you know, to get a stadium that full, it takes hours and that and we were the first match, yep, butch Me and Jim Duggan one of three, a whoa, a yay and a whole so brother. When it was our turn, you know, after the people were still coming in after

about three hours. It takes maybe it's three or four hours to full the place up. Anyhow, we went out there and we got in the ring and we matched around and put a head under the second of the top rope and I did the world butchered theda and dug it in the hole. Well, we ended up doing that for nine minutes, keeping going around the ring. That whole arena was doing it. You know when you listen to English or Europeans soccer or football, European football, all the people singing, the

audience, Well, that's how it was. And it didn't stop. We had to stop and start doing a match after about nine minutes. And everything we did in the match, and we didn't do much because we didn't need to do much. Everything we did, the people were screaming here the place when it was alive. Mate, that was one of the loudest sounds I ever got from an arena. Yeah, well I ever heard. And Dougan will say that, and of course God blessed, but he said that he

was saying that before he passed. Yep, it was the loudest and I think it was a great, great match. We got plenty of comments on that match from a lot of people just for the three characters in the Ring us three characters. And also that night the road Warriors were against I can't re move and I were against. But that's when Hawk dropped about nine Sohmers must relaxes down his gullets, and the boy he went aol. He went

missing, missing in action for nine days after that. I think we had a couple more shows in Europe, in England or Europe, and then we headed home and we never saw Hawk for another week. He got hooked up with the Hell's Angels. Oh there anyhow, and then matching the at the Big Show, they went to rings. They went to the Ring on Harley's and the Big Show. Port got with the motorbike gang. I think it was whatever gang it was over there. He got with him and he didn't

leave them for nine days. He just partied with it. Hope would go am I a quite a bit. And of course Marty's in Eddie another one. Doesn't matter where you were in Europe on the last day, he would never turn up. He'd be parting from the night before and then and then next minute you'll see him. Back in the States, and the office always kept your passports, so I guess they had a border whatever they did. I don't know how they got in baggage started. But Marty was one for

Gone Mi I a nearly every year pre and tour party. Mary Mary jennetties. Yeah, they were great. They were great tours over there made bloody great tours. Good times, especially in Europe, different countries in the in Europe were great, great times. We were new in a lot of bloody countries and the reaction to everything was wild. Now getting back to the Hongy

necklaces, it wasn't a Hongy necklace. A Hongy is when we when two Maoris were the original how many necklaces they were in ninety they rubbed their noses. That was the meeting of the Maori when they met each other, going back into the eighteenth century in nineteen nineteen, early nineteenth century, when they meet they rub noses and and uh and the necklace is a Tikei necklace here

it's a replica. Yeah, going back to the ages the Maori's it's what would they say, and as an ancestral police anyhow, it's from their gods or who they believe their race. That's what things around the neck and it's handed down usually the ticket is handed down from a family member to the next generation to the next generation, and they say that the ticket gets more power

as it goes from generations of generation. But they sold around New Zealand and all the stores and uh and the airports as a necklace, you know, a leather a piece of leather usually holding them with the class and the tickie readily made out of greenstone, the stone greenstone, but a lot of them are carved out of wood. About if you go and look at now tickeys and you can read about it, what the what what the story is on them, the older the older Maria's well, now they're in the eighth cast,

you know, the ones that are bred there in New Zealand. Now they're about eight eight percent married. But the original ones going back further, that was very The tikey was a very important part of the end ancestry, the family line, right, that's any other And the funny part is about the hongy. When we had started doing that on wwe the nose rub you know as a greeting, people thought we're head butting and they would come up to us and bars, especially going to the ring. If you lean over

the barrier to rub their hand. They're trying to head butcher and if you're anywhere else outside, they come up and that they were told it was a meeting. It was a way of meeting, but they thought it was their head butt instead of a nose rub boy. So we stopped doing that bloody hongy very soon after we started because people were giving it a boom. Fuck.

Our head was all swallen up here. The bloody barsnd jack. Just a little stories there about the butchwaggers in Europe and and the hungy what have at day. Well, it's right, I mean, what a ride fuck is he talking about it? He was asked about the necklaces that they wore in like ninety five. They were like these wooden carvings around their neck and

apparently they have maory significance from the tribes of New Zealand. The hungy h O n g i is a traditional Maori greeting in which people press their noses together, and I guess they decided to try to do some of these ancient moory things at a certain point as bushwhackers. I don't really remember this, and they would like go to touch noses with the fans as the greeting and that's inappropriate. They thought it was like an invitation to head button the bushwhackers,

so they stopped doing that pretty quickly. Yeah, he went in a lot of different directions there. I mean he went in pretty much every direction, but the one we wanted, well, we didn't even request it. That's a that's our pal Zach doing us a real solid there. But you never know what's behind door number one or two or three over at the cameo. You never know. Certainly your co chairmen are up on cameo available to you for your party favorite needs, right, Boss, you've had any whacky

requests? Lightly tell you you know, I've been very I have to admit I apologize to the ones of the last couple of weeks or a couple of months. Really, I've been so bad at getting to them. It's just been just kind of crazy trying to get everything. You know. I've said it before. I'll say I hate summer. Summer sucks because just the schedules are just completely out of whack and and I just you know, I have no time for anything because I'm grabbing my kid everywhere. So it's it's terfaul

obviously. So Yes, if you're out there and you sent a request in and didn't get it responded to hit us back. Yeah, well we'll get there. So, yeah, it has been a while since I've fulfilled one, but there is one in the the there's one in the chamber right now. Very nice. Let's see what the request is. Oh, it's for So it's for it's for this person's boyfriend. And I guess they made them a huge wrestling fan and with the help of us, and so they apparently

they want this is what the request. I don't know what the request actually is there, but I wanted to thank him for being so awesome. We love Terry Funk, Vincent Hulk Cogan. Interesting, okay, so are you asking that? Is that what you want? You know? That's fine, we'll get it done. Yeah, she must mean our versions of those people. Yes, I mean, I I know, I know. But like usually there's like a request what to say call my boyfriend a fucking asshole or

something, you know, for his birthday. He'll love that, you know something. Usually you know, tell them I don't know whatever, So it's it's ah, but yes, well, well you know what, always think of something, so it'll happen. We are the people the cameo creators had in mind when they created the concept, because I'm always so tickled to get random cameos from wrestlers, from members of the Solar system who think that would be funny. I mean, Zach has a lot of credit for h from

coming up the idea. You know, it's it's a regular part of cinemat as well as the main shows these days. We just had Diamond Ellis Page on the Greed Show, for instance, just sitting there waiting, you know, because all we really want are ten minutes at a time with these folks anyway, Right, to do a three hour interview with these motherfuckers costs about the same as you would at a wrestle con too, So yeah, it's

fair. It's a fair exchange, Vanessa writes to us. Carney's boss are forever all right, Vanessa Rollins brother, please please don't anyway, dear coach chairman, like a normal father, my dad had no interest in watching wrestle with me as a kid. Yes, thank god for that. Father watched wrestling from Marigo all the time. He would scream and yell at the TV. But you know it's fake, right, How do you watch this shit

right. He put up with it, though, He bought me shirts and pay per views and generally tried to be as supportive as a sane adult could be of a child sadly lost to the sport of kings. One thing we did watch together was James Bond movies. Uh oh. We had the whole collection on VHS. We watched them over and over. We talked about which Bond was the best. He loved Sean Connery. I loved Roger Moore, But twenty years ago this year, while I was still in high school,

he passed away from colon cancer. My deepest sympathies. After that, my love of Bond faded. I watched only a couple of the Daniel Craig movies. They were good, but my heart just wasn't in it anymore. Enter Carnies are forever right. Much like Jack, I've never really been a movie person. I think you're not a movie person. You're a movie person. When I was saying that watching those oh yeah, I mean there's movie people, and then there's like going to Emerson and like, oh yeah, I

mean like, no, I'm not that kind of movie person. No, no, no, no, I wouldn't say that I love movies, but I I never I'm never the person that's seen all the movies you're supposed to see. Yeah, of course, yeah, I understand. It's why I love cinemat Yeah. The excuse is to check these boxes. Oh yeah, I've had enough years to watch these movies on my own record, and I haven't, so I never would have otherwise. Yeah, I actually get some

you know. Actually it's funny some of it. Sometimes there have been sometimes where I've had movies that I've actually bought and I've never watched them. Yep, And I'm like, oh, well, this actually qualifies. It's just throw this in your effect. It's a beautiful thing we have going it is actually is the understanding among my friends is that if you're going to ask me if I've seen a movie, just to sue my ab and then proceed with

your story from there. Exactly. So I forked over my hard earned long greens to upgrade to the EPT here a while back, to become more con conversant. Is that's absolutely in film. I appreciate it when people are you know, people are much more intelligent than I am. In certain just a word, she knows, that's all I just don't know. It's a word. I don't know. I've never heard conversant before, capable of conversing on a subject. I am conversant in it, I guess in film and film

history. And when when Carnier Carnier, Carnie's type of Carnia. Yeah, yeah, that's uh, that's what they call it in France. Yeah. Started. I was curious would draw me in more than other films, considering my history with them, And dear coach here, I write to you to inform you that I sit by my phone with bated breath, Yes, watching for notifications. Yes you do. Twenty four to seven seven eleven South. Oh my god, that's great for the next episode of carneiz are forever to

come out. I say this with nothing but the deepest reference for the work you've done for the past ten years. I haven't been this anticipatory for the next episode of a podcast since season one of Cereal. Wow, the trial of all of his life came closed. But this is un controvertible. Damn God, lover. These are big words for me. I need it,

I have to have it. I don't know if I have words to relate the excitement I had during the final scenes of Honor Majesty Secret Service, knowing that both I and JP were hiding a dark and terrible secret for Jess. Yes, oh god, that was hard. That was hard. It was hard preparing that episode making sure I kept any reference of Tracy getting whacked. Yeah. Yes, very artist, fuck very challenging. I don't know how

I'm supposed to hear someone speak German around me good five. Yeah, I don't know how I'm not supposed to see a white Catholic el Dorado and not immediately call it a bit of obio? What mobile? A pimpmobile? Yes, thank you for stuffing my arm. You know, I know, I know after ten years. I know, after ten years, it still catches me off. Dard when people phrase it a certain way. Cliff said cinnamon hole before, right, like, thank you for stuffing my holes with knowledge.

Get it up the fucking knowledge. Come on, got it up there for all these years. Thank you for creating something. The Grinch with the Christmas tree sact by exactly. That tree is knowledge, all right, and Vanessa's hole is the fucking chety. Sorry Vanessa, but you started it. I blame you. Thank you for being something that in this time of malaise

invokes in me excitement, joy and anticipation. Thank you for Holcomania, and thank you for Carnie's r Forever see Boss, the work you're doing means something to people. I appreciate that and lovely to know it is always Ken Canew writes, I did a forty I did a year abroad in Spain and used to love watching raw. I'd be condensed to a forty five minute highlight show

interspersed with random vignettes if wrestlers dubbed over good. I did a Broaden New Year in Spain, but I did more than one broad actually did more than abroad on Laurambla. Were you born a rumblin man? Vince in Barcelona? I do appreciate Barcelona. Oh shit, Vince gets blown on the on the

Brambla. Oh yeah, in between like vendors selling like keychains. Yes, uh, it'd be condensed to a forty five minute highlight show interspersed with randam vignettes of wrestlers dubbed over by the commentator he'd called triple H tree play tree play tree, playych cha yach cha yat yay. Wow, that's tremendous and at the end of mister Kennedy doing his microphone bit, he'd say Gracia signor

Kennedy. Also, they would never show the first entrance, so whoever came out first was a de facto jobber, nice collar sendor Kennedy, Kennedy. There's some color on WWA European broadcasts. Stephen Wats writes, I must confess that seventeen year old needed buy a double cologne during the Quantum of Solace promotion. Oh wow, I didn't know they had one during this more modern era.

That's crazy to not result in the murder of any woman. Also, is it too early to name Roger Moore at the MVP of this journey? No, actually, I'm I'm gonna come out and say it. I think he is, that he is the hero of this of this journey. Yeah, well, I don't know what's to come. That's the thing. I mean, I know a little bit. I just don't think. I don't think anybody else, because because here's the thing, no other James. We're

not going to be with any other James Bond this long. There, you know, we don't have another James Bond for literally seven movies we don't have a James bond for all of their movies, right you now, like it's it's it's much more sporadic. He he just has cemented himself as as a treasure to the point where, you know, normally at this point into on this I kind of want to veer off from the main person and talk about other people, but I can't because everything he fucking says is amazing. Yeah,

he's money. His autobiography is tremendous, It's so funny, it's great stories. You know, He's he's really he's I agree. I think I think he is the He is the hero of the Carney's journey. Yeah. Yeah, he's got a remarkable mix of yeah seriousness and unseriousness that Milton read. You can't possibly spend enough time trying to unpack it, you know, not at all. But I let this be fucking proved by now that if you're not on the executive producer tier and you have any a scintilla of Cinophile

in you, you're really missing out. Yes, let these letters and these testimonials serve as evidence that the Carney's forever Carneys are forever journey happening right now under the Cinemat is certainly worth your dollar. Sam Gafchack, thank you very much for your increase in pledge. We appreciate it. Stephen Prescott, welcome in, my friend, and thank you for the support. Cyrus says this co chairs of Grace Sis with Under the Cinemat episodes on Predator and The Running

Man. Yes, the time has come for the Arnold and Jesse trilogy to be completed with the nineteen ninety seven Warner Brothers cinematic masterpiece Batman and Robin. Yes, on a list, for sure, on a list. It's there, it'll come. Are you looking forward to it? No, Joshannon, thank you for that huge pledge. Up to the mote here, my friend. We really appreciate that vote of support. Great to have you in the Solar System. The Joel Schumacher Batman's are just awful. Yeah, that's anyone

says. That's why I asked. Yeah, yeah, they're dreadful. I can't stand him. Jesse's in them? Is that right? He's in one of them. He's in the one with Schwarzenegger. He plays like a news broadcast or something in Batman and Robin. Okay, we're generally considered the worst ever. Oh god, yeah, it's absolutely, I mean it's it's it's dreadful. The franchise was dead for eight years because of that, you know, until they fucking completely redid it. That's amazing. Yeah, it's awful,

Clooney Batman, it's just like not okay. Mike writes this on our ten year lookback interview that we did. Congrats and happy anniversary. Thank you for dropping a look back, really good insight and it's ever always good to hear the three of you chat. I help contribute to the Hall of Fame for TLFX, Thanks Mike, and with International LATS Day. Thanks again earlier this year. I'm still working on what I want to say an audio forms part of TLFX, but wanted to take the time to drop this message.

Yeah. Reminder, still taking TLFX testimonials if you want to reflect on what the cast is meant and get your audio up here on the main feed if we deem it worthy. The lapsed fan at gmail dot com is where to send your audio recordings. I'd love to hear from more of you, he writes. Your friendship in chemistry is with lots of us fans of fake Fisticuffs wish we had or wish we still had. By listening to you, it's like being part of a conversation with like minded friends who never existed or are

two out of touch to understand anymore. You treat fans like equals and within reasonable, allow, within reason, allow us to contribut. Hearing an email read out in the show for me personally was very cool. I've never written into or called into a show before, or felt the connection to a show like I have with TLF. Here's to at least another twenty years. So glad that it's become financially viable for you. It is so well deserved.

You allow us into your lives and create the illusion of friendship in a way that no other show could illusion. It's a good one. Hey, we learn to work everything else as lifetime wrestling fans, right, That's true. I was enjoy hearing about your families, your Christmases. I was generally so thrilled when I heard JP had Linda koj Oh King of the Jews, and that you had been able to collaborate with Dark Side on that podcast. Lots

to express, but the above is all I got right now. Like Jack said, you just do a podcast and have never claimed to try to help people with issues. But it's not a work for everyone, and not all stories are fake. My life is better thanks to TLF. Since twenty twenty, life has been rough and one hundred percent. TLF has been a saving grace time and time again. You let us get to know you, but on your own terms. It just works. Mike. Thank you, Mike.

That's a really nice letter. I like that a lot. Actually, that's really really solid, Paul. Ten years have lapsed. Thanks Paul. Here we go greeting purveyors of phony pugilism. Ten years ago, my wife and I moved our family to be closer to our parents. Around that same time, I started to get it back into wrestling through seeing a random gift on Twitter of arn Anderson's spine busting Ricky Steamboat and the memory of wrestl War

ninety two rushed back. I play spinebuster will do it sometimes, right, boss? I? Yeah, for sure, he did. There are nobody does it better. Tremendous torque on that thing. He gets it, he gets it, and it lands. I've been listening to podcasts for a while at that point, so I wondered if one for wrestling existed, and a cursory sarch led to a show with a cool logo that looked like the old

Raw logo. First episode SummerSlam nineteen ninety one. I remembered that show decently, well, let me check these guys out, love the chemistry between Jack and JP, and then JP at the end of an episode announced the next episode was Royal Rumble nineteen ninety one. That was my show, and I was hooked. Yes from there. I remember driving to work one morning and

almost getting a wreck because laps. Jim Barnett couldn't help himself but respond to Brad Armstrong's objection of the IRAQ demand gimmick with I'd rather go to a raqman with a perfectly timed like your brother. I con vividly remember Jack's laugh, and I've never laughed so heart at a joke I didn't completely understand. Insert one of the co chairs saying, oh, you didn't know an R road

duck. Fast forward it's twenty seventeen, you're covering Hollymen Havoc ninety eight, and I decided to shave while listening to Vince calling the cable company the day after the show to tell them WCW screwed them over when Vince told Patterson to write a script and put WCW on it while putting the TV exec on a

hold. Let's just say I got color. Oh shit. In short, TLF has been my constant companion for the last ten years, through rocking my youngest daughter to sleep, mowing the lawn, working in eight to five, flying home to see my dad after his heart attack, to the four hour drive home the following year after saying goodbye to him for the last time. To paraphrase Big Dust, I don't need it to look for another podcast. This is the podcast I need. I wish both of you the happiest of

anniversaries. And here's too many more. Here's to more deep dives, more cinemats, and of course more WrestleMania. Here's the lapsed fan man number one in the ring. Thank you for both seeing Himania Hokomania and perhaps most importantly, Freddie Miller all the best. Paul, that's a fan right there. That is sick, absolutely sick, letter floating, stupid, fucking idiot smile on his face and he just flies out of the window. Ract the man.

I'd rather go to a rack man like your brother. I mean, you want to talk about as stupid as it possibly could get on a podcast, so fucking pathetic and dumb that we just sit here, make those little puns and just giggle our asses off so someone can write an email like you folks like you goggle. Yeah, well exactly, Martin Ferguson, Thanks for

all the great support and for increasing your pledge. We were talking about what a bushwhacker was, remember that when we were doing the European rampage shows. Dan writes Dan from New Zealand Rights in fact, wanted to give you some clarification on what bushwhacker means, at least to us here in New Zealand. Bushwhacking is a practice of exploring and clearing paths and forests. That's exactly what I thought it was. Yeah, usually done with a machete and involving clearing

of large scrub and vines. So how is that a threat in wrestling? How are they bushwhacking? I guess that hand motion is how you cut vines and scrub. I certainly saw them cut through many scrubs on Saturday mornings, that's for sure. I hope this helps give some clarification as to why they were called bushwhackers cheers, Really not at all. It does mean whacking bushes. I got it. I mean that I'll take, but it means it

actually makes it more confusing as to what their gimmick was. I'm sure Vince just heard the term in association with New Zealand once and just absolutely had to see it on a T shirt on the bed sheets I had as a kid, Remember those bed sheets, man home, I'll be honest with you, I am definitely the king bushwhacker in bed, and I would like to see children's all right, that's enough, definitely enough sharing my bushwhacking in bed.

Everything to say about that pale? What more can you say? Coffee Murphy, thank you very much for that incredible vany pledge. Out of the gate right to the moat tier he goes, good a pot brewing. Lillian Mattis, thank you so very much for your increased pledge in the vote of confidence. We appreciate it. Shell's KF thank you for joining the inner circle and for your pledge. Same to you, Josh Wright, coming in strong with

a meaty pledge that we deeply appreciate. Jamie Keene saw necessary to increase the pledge, and so we see it necessary to give our thanks here on the cast. Jason Powell, thank you very much for your pledge. We appreciate the support. Christopher A. Karn if not to say clarn Welcome to under the Cinemat Interurn. Matt came right in at the fifty dollars tier, and for that we give him deep respect and admiration. Scott Arnold, thank you

very much. Welcome to the executive producer circle. My friend Michael wise Camp, thank you so very much for your support. Gary slack Jog great last name, slacking his way up to the bigger tier. Chris Barnett motoring all the way up to that moat tier. We appreciate it. James Milsom, thank you very much for jumping up to the execute to produce her tier. So gratifying to see people get in the front door at that three sixteen, and then over the years they go to ten, they go to twenty,

they go to fifty. It's just, you know, because it's not bullshit what we say about getting something out of it. Nathan, thank you very much for all your support over the years and for your recent joining of the Mote tier. Luke Polly writes in Primary school age, tell people I was named after Luke of the Bushwhackers because he was my dad's friend. Not true.

I also later on told people Kane was my uncle and I was going to bring him to the school sports today, but when the day came he called away unimportant WW business, wow instrument, Andy Low, thank you very much. Welcome to the Eptier, my friend Panda. Thank you for the cake. Same to you, Evil Fenrix, whoever you may be, Thanks for that cheese. William Lutz, thank you very much for your support. Same to you, Madeline Coppel. We really appreciate you joining us in the

inner circle. Sam O'Connor, thank you very much for bumping up your pledge to a generous denomination. Daniel Pearson writes to us, guy, I'm working. I'm from a Workington. Hearing it and Cockermouth and Carlisle on that cast is so bizarre. We must have talked about Workington, England on an episode of cinemat maybe or maybe in the European Tour set Diamonds are Forever featuring Tiger Joe Robinson. Oh maybe that would have been right. It says Cumberland and

Westmoreland wrestling is still a thing. No Yeah, it totally is. If you're wondering, like what the wrestling component of some of these James Bond episodes are. We're learning a lot about wrestling on the lawns of England, are we not? We are? I mean the the the Westmoreland Cumberland style is a very fascinating style of wrestling, involving just like some very interesting rules. Yeah, the rule set is what really gets your head scratching. Yeah,

without a doubt. It happens at the appleby Horse Fair every year. Still, I think Cumberland and Westmoreland wrestling sounds like a road trip. One of these days. I know I need to see this shit see ketches can on the Green Yep Tiger Joe Robinson giving a judo advice to women so they can repel attackers. I mean, women being told that, you know, they can't do it better than men at the end of it all, the end of it all truly something We want to go now to Brian and thank him

very much, Brian Condon for his recent increase in pledge. Deeply appreciate that. Phil says, fuck me, I'm actually crying at the Ultimate Warrior, asking Davy boy Smith if he knows a steroid dealer in full promo mode. This is vincea. That's good. That's our Saturday Night's Made Event episode where he and Davey both went away for g H. Shipman's thanks to Martin for buying the lapsed baseball shirt. I think he was the first one from chop

Teas. He's excited for it to arrive, and it's been a wonderful combination with our friends over chop Teas where you can get exclusive T left merchandise sort of off the beaten T shirt path, you know, baseball jerseys, hats and the such cool snapbacks of course, and some of the T shirts that were deemed a little too racy, racy of sorts and you know, bordering

that line a little too close. But of course our pro wrestling T shirts still rock and strong for you that want to wear the traditional teas that have so long been the flags to fly when you're out in public to announce your lap stom and now we get jackets to throw on top of it. Another kind of ethemera thanks to Chopped So it's a beautiful thing, Neil writes to

us y NBC dumb Saturday Night's main event and he's got more detail. Of course, that is a subject we talked quite a bit about, yes, in covering the final Saturday Nights Made event on Fox back in nineteen ninety two. Quite recently in the catalog. Here's some more color that Neil thought was relevant, and I would agree. Why don't you share it with the Solar system? Do you? Hello? Co chairs? It was amusing hearing Bruce

Pritchard's spin on YNBC dumped w programming. We had become so awesome at television and they were jealous. That's pretty much what he says. Yeah, when the true answer is much more interesting. I've broken it down to three bullet points in order of importance. NBC acquired the rights to air NBA games. If you want to have a one send answer for YNBC ditch wrestling, it would be NBC snatched away CBS's deal with the NBA. You think about nineteen

ninety when basketball was beginning to pop off. Is it any surprise that they want to be the network of Michael Jordan and not Hulk Hogan brother. In November nine eighty nine, NBC put ink to paper on a six hundred million dollars deal to bring the NWA to their airways more than triple which CBS was paying. The man who engineered the deal. Vin's his best buddy Dick ever saw Yes, his quote at the time. Now there's this. There has

been no competitive bidding in this decade for that contract. Neither ABC or NBC ever actively participated, so CBS has had it pretty much to him to itself. This indicates a forceful change in direction for NBC Sports to grab basketball after

losing their MLB rights the previous month. By allotting forty million dollars to promote NBA programming, was very clear they they were putting all their chips on basketball, thus leading to the golden NBC, NBA and NBC era with the John Tesh song, mm hmm, and they're getting it back, they are, It's coming back. Brandon Tartakoff leaves NBC to become chairman of Paramount Studios in

nineteen ninety one. Brandon Tartakoff was largely seen as the architect of NBC's nineteen eighties boom Cheers, The Cosby Showhill Street Bluesmami Vice, et cetera, and, in surprise exit from the post he had held for ten years, put NBC in a desperate scramble to pick up the pieces. As Boss knows, when a new network or studio ahead assumes their role, they are quick to

dispatch legacy projects in favor of their own ideas. Yeah, talk about that in a bunch of times, especially, I think of with The Princess Bride with William Goldman talking about how you know you get a new once you get a new regime in on a studio, they want to basically put every project

that was created by the predecessor aside right favor of their own agenda. I mean it's like also, it's like presidencies as well, Like in the country, they want to fucking executive order the shit out of everything that happened before. They can order the shit everything happened before, and and just be sure that if there's something they want to see see through that the people in a

position executed actually have loyalty to them. Yeah, right. Having a bit of a NBC since nineteen eighty one, ww Wrestling was on NBC for the entirety of Tartakoff's tenure and can be seen as a cornerstone of his programming strategy. While Tartakoff's air Warren Littlefield was indebted to his mentor in many aspects. He made it clear right away the network was going into a new direction. Is it any surprise that when Tartakoff leaves, that wrestling leaves with him,

which leads us to the new and BC. Yes. Within NBC in nineteen ninety one, there was an internal thinking that they had to move on from what had worked in Tartakoff's era. The Cosby Show and Cheers were winding down,

and their new primetime drama offerings had been wildly unsuccessful. In the ninety one ninety two season, CBS had finally dethroned NBC as the number one network after chasing them through the nineteen eighties, and NBC had very little to respond withww Wrestling was largest seen as in the rearview mirror with their other nineteen eighties off fens, and NBC was determined to move onto new shows and new stars

for their network. The w and Hulk Coogan had no place in this new landscape where Seinfeld, Friends, Friends was on a little bit later, but I see the point. Seinfeld, Friends, Law and Order, Will and Grace and Er would come to dominate primetime and Jay Leno would leave the Tonight Show in Late Night. Make no mistake, the W going to Fox was a major demotion from NBC. Fox hadn't acquired NFL games yet and was firmly the number four network off in a punchline when it came to jokes about quality

television. But my email sheds a little light on what the thinking might have been that sent the W to Fox from a higher profile perch on NBC. Yeah, that NBC deal was, that NBA deal for NBC was transformative. Imagine for sure, they leaned in big at a time when people were questioning the value of those rights, and they wrote the Jordan Wave and what an

incredible time for basketball that that was. And the return of the NBA n NBC with the theme song and everything soon of course, as yet not another indication Boss that it used to be better. That's I mean, it does kind of bother me that that you can put John tesh under one under it used to be better. But you know, yeah, I'll take what I can get. I just can't believe he came up with that song, But

all the power to him. He did the John John teshun Son Son Tons Tons and it's exciting it is, and it's a great time to be a basketball fan. But that's that's all very good points for Neil. I mean, you can't ever lose sight of the macro when it comes to these television stations that have wrestling on. Is kind of like a not an afterthought, but not a front burner consideration, right, It's about everything else. They're

thinking about everything else except wrestling. Teddy wants us to know that Helen's Reptilian reveal maybe do the kind of laugh where you're laughing so hard that you can't inhale or x and you just sit there, seizing in silence and wondering if this is the end? Yes, William writes the other night, my wife and I were making BLTs. Oh she was making Oh, she was making the bacon, and I was going to slice the tomato and bread. I had to leave the room for a minute, and when I came back,

she had already completed my task completely without any forethought. I said, oh, you already slight slizzed the tis. Oh my god, brother, it just fell out of my mouth. She looked at me and said, yes, But I don't think that there's a more perverted way to say that, ye right, that is what this particular podcast does. Already slizzed the tizz speaking of the Saturday's main event. Remember, as part of that episode, we were reading off with the top one hundred shows who were on cable and

just bathing in the memories. Jeff writes, the CoA chairs reading off TV shows is more depressing than the Mike von Eric Cotton Bowl show promo. I missed communal, predictable, regularly scheduled television. Now you should. People were happier and no one was an amateur TV critic or network executive. You just watch television. God, it used to be better. Eric Holeman, thank

you very much for the pledge. Welcome to the executive producer tear. My friend Paul writes, Imagine, due to the success of Iron Claw, someone makes a movie about the Heart family. Taking cues from that movie, The cast is encouraged to listen to a particular podcast. Then you go to see the movie. The actor playing stew just mutters about chicken and soup NonStop. The amazing and the blogs characters entire dialogue is ah die, crack and every

other every other syllable, every other word. For Brett Hard is aw Now, the brett Wan would be the flattest one if they use us as a as a guide. Cliff points out, relative to the Mega Maniacs on the last Saturday Night's main event, it's possible that Savage and Warrior were weorring yellow and red y because when I say Mega Megas were beef Cake and Hogan, you we're wearing yellow and red because they were both Slim Jim spokesman. I forgot about that. Warrior was, Yeah, they did. They put them

on one of those commercials I believe in ninety two. Really, I'm gona t see if I can pull it up. Slim Jim Ultimate Warrior. Yeah, it was do you want to do? You boys a bit bored? Stop? I remember that, stop into it. I remember him saying it that way. I don't remember shopping it. No, I don't remember that at all. It does have something to do with it, not a whole cocin dig that. We we had fun considering the possibility. Listen, it's

always about Hogan, Okay. Absolutely, My red slim gym colors alone are Hulk Hogan. Absolutely, here's a Brent. I just discovered your podcast several days go and I've been binge listening to all the original episodes, starting with the first one. They are pure gold. Thank you for the laughs in the nostalgia. I am hooked, Sorry but not sorry. Brent, welcome

in. Appreciate it a tool belt for Daddy, writes on Patreon. Excuse me, I was just listening to Davey having some sort of a breathing fit after asking if he won the trophy and laughed so hard I inhaled my food and almost died. This happens a lot. I think we may have lost one or two out there over the years. I do wonder, you know, there are something we haven't heard from in a while, and it makes me wonder if they if they did pass away. Yeah, someone said having

lapsed Vince read audio books would be a great revenue stream. We've thought about things like that before, but apparently some of these carnies with books would rather audible, just have AI read their books and pay them nothing than to yeah, or just not make money off of anything. Let us do something with them and share in the proceeds, Anthony, that's funny. They'd rather not

make money at all. Well, yeah, for money. Didn't see it coming, but here it is. I mean, there are so many audiobooks now that are read not by human authors, on some of these sort of marginal wrestling titles. All of a sudden, I'm noticing. I don't know where where that came from, but good luck, that's where we're headed. Anthony writes, I had a terrible day yesterday, the worst day. I went to bed at nine thirty because I didn't want to be awake, but

my brain wouldn't quiet down. I put a nearbuty in around ten thirty. The lapsed fan. Of course, the sleep timer turned it off in an hour, but I was still awake. I put it back on. The sleep timer turned it off again, but I was still awake, so I turned it on again. The last thing I remember was Helen Hart turning into a reptile demon. That is not what you want to go to pet Toolessly, I'll tell you that right now. For the first time, I laughed,

quietly, shaking the bed and waking up my pregnant wife. Are you okay, It's fine, dear. I just got lapsed. Oh God. Shortly thereafter I fell asleep. I've never written to you guys, just quietly enjoyed it since it all started. Thanks Jack and JP. You guys are the go to when I want to abandon the troubles of this life and enjoy the troubles of choreographed, monetized, athletic pretend entertainment. Yeah, I understand,

Matt. That's how we can be of service. Michael writes, good evening, This is going to be a bit of a stream of consciousness, but this recap on Warrior and satur In Nate's made of at ninety two really hit home for me. I grew up in a small town in central Ohio. Actually went to the nineteenninety two Survivor series on Thanksgiving Eve. Wow, he went, Wow, We've always been a fan of he was there. Back in these days, getting tickets was a bit of a pain in the

ass. We had to go to an independent music store in downtown in order to call in and order our tickets. The other complicating piece is while I still read the WWF magazine, I never had access to cable and the local Fox television affiliate would preempt Superstars of Wrestling seemingly randomly. The last time I regularly was able to watch Superstars of Wrestling was ready on SummerSlam I distinctly remember

Nails attacking the boss Man. So anyway, probably around the Septemer Nineteenninet two issue of WAIF magazine, and I remember the back of the magazine having a big ad for Survivor series Warrior and Macho against Flare and Ramon coffin match Betwe Kamal and Taker night Stick match between boss Man and Nails. And I was

in and it was in Richfield, Ohio. Now I was ten. I had no idea where Richfield was, but I was able to beg and beg until my dad finally gave in. He bitched about having a drive on seventy one to Cleveland on the busiest travel day of the year. Of course, what's better than a dad complaining about traffic taking you to wrestling. Oh and of course we didn't get in quite on time. Still remember hearing Crushes theme echoing in the arena as we were still finding our seats. That's stressful.

Sorry I am digressing. But the key to thing to know is the only thing I knew going into this event was from Saturday Night's main event, Heart was now the champ, which I was okay about, kind of happy to see a WT fifth Championship match at the show that I was going to see, and then at the end of the show, I heard Heenan saying something about there being a problem with the Mega Maniacs. I thought for sure that Ultim Maniacs. Yeah, he said Mega. Yeah, he said Mega too.

I thought for sure that was Heenan being an idiot. I was finally going to see my guy Warrior. As I walked through the arena, I looked at the merchandise Kiosk and saw mister Perfect with Savage Right. What the fuck? Perfect had always been an asshole. I didn't like him and definitely didn't accept this replacement. Nope, it definitely took the wind out of my

sales. You're done. After the show, I kind of stepped back from WWF until my family got cable in January of ninety four, the day of the Rumble, which I definitely talked my folks into letting me get I was excited when I saw on WWF magazine that Hogan won the title at WrestleMania nine. I rented it from the local First Choice Video. I would call the number every fifteen minutes to see if the asshole that rented at first had returned

it yet Oh the worst. That's awesome. I'm sure they hated me along with Final Fight for the SNS, but my love was not there. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to reminisce about a formative time in my life. And I love this podcast. Thank you for whole comania. Well, thank you, Michael. Glad to be of service. He puts his finger on something that I kind of remember, like getting back into something like watching a

pay per view after a year and a half or something. Yeah, like being excited that you're about to discover a whole lot of things that you know nothing about wrestlers you don't know you know that feeling? Yep, well, yes, yes, I do kind of The last time I could replicate it was sort of like when I started tape trading for Japan and all these wrestlers I would read about, but I hadn't really seen an action. There was

no YouTube to speak of or anything like that. It's like, Wow, I'm actually gonna sit here and just be like an assault on the senses of brand new things, brand new wrestlers, brand new moves, brand new form of presentation that's gone. Yeah, yeah, because I don't you know, It's funny that I do remember having that feeling, but I haven't had it in a long time. Amen to that, Miiley Ripley, thanks very much for the pledige. Adam B. Welcome to the VIP. Tre Aden Miller,

thanks very much for your support. Leif has some stuff for his boss on Brett and Virgil and kind of where he found the great verge around the time of bread. That's a title reign in the Saturday Night's main event. We covered all right, um yeah, in the aftermath of Virgils untimely passing Rest and Peace and Tlef's coverage of the November nineten ninety two Saturday's main event.

It's natural to speak of that random Brett Hard Virgil Superstars title defense in positive terms, and from Virgil standpoint, I obviously understand Brett's work was such that it made far less talented people than Virgil look like a million bucks, So it's no real surprise that that was a good match. But for twelve year old me, still reeling from the jarring announcement that Brett had been hot shotted into the world title, it actually felt like an inflection point where I

could not take the whole thing seriously. To be clear, As a fan starting out a few years prior, I made it about thirty minutes into watching wrestling before my mom casually passed through the room to inform me that the whole thing was fake. I never really doubted that what she said was true, so I understood almost immediately that it was all work. Still, even armed with that knowledge, you think in markish ways, planned or not, the

wrestler who's dominant is more impressive. The one who catches beatings on a regular basis is tough to get excited about, And that irrational construct informed my opinion about Brett for a number of years. See, I was a big Heart Foundation fan. They were my favorite tag team as a new fan. I love the music, I love the heart Attack finisher, but it was the Anvil. The Anvil who really impressed me. After all, he was the

one who got the hot tags to bail Bred out of peril. He was the big man who could throw dropkicks when you wouldn't have expected it, and in interviews, his laugh provided more personality than any words Brett could offer. So I basically accepted Brett as an acceptable tag along. I didn't dislike him at all. But in my backwards, young mind, it was anvil carrying the team and Brett coming a long for the ride. Safe to say, given this mentality, it was difficult to accept his big mega push as a

singles wrestler after the animal disappeared. I did not like him as much as mister Perverton didn't accept him, didn't accept him. Wow as icy champ. Wow swapped the belt back and forth with Roddy Piper. I felt relieved. I felt relieved when the British bulldog took him down. Oh my goodness, you got a hot take on Brett because it felt like they were pulling the plug on this relentless Brett push. I was young, I'm stupid. I did not possibly realize that losing a strap could simply be a sign of a

wrestler's push actually intensify to the next level. When he was randomly brought out by me and Gin a few weeks later on Superstars as the new w champion, I just about fell out of my chair. I couldn't believe this had really happened. With despair, I accepted my fate. This man was going to be a top wrestler for a very long time. I tried to suppress my frustration and pretend that I was okay with it. After all, I was THEWW superfan in my friend group. It always felt like my ability to

keep my friends interested was hanging by a thread. So I didn't feel that I could afford to be negative. So I watched as Brett gave match after match where he conceded an impossible amount of offense to underwhelming mid carters. How could I take seriously the notion that this was the man He's dominating nobody. He's barely surviving all comers like a heeled champion, but he's supposed to be the conquering hero. How much longer can I pretend wow that this isn't crazy?

So I kept up a good face. A friend at the school mentioned that Brett would be defending the Belticainst. Virgil that weekend. Channeling my perpetual state of denial, I said, Yeah, kind of weird for Virgil to get a world title shop, but Britt will beat him less than two minutes. Did that happen? Of course not, he dominates nobody. I just hadn't accept that Virgil got a bunch of offense and looked roughly on Brett's level in my living room. The result wasn't to feel that Brett that the Virgil

overlooked, that Virgil looked great. It was to feel that Brett looked like an absolutely pitiful excuse for a WWE champion. That's fascinating, yep. And I still stand by the notion that it's bad booking to have never let Brett ever dominate anyone. That seems absolutely crucial, crucial to putting someone over as the very best. Frankly, I'm amazed that Vince ever brought into this model of just putting on good matches without trying to make his champion the herculean.

Anyway, after the Titanic battle with Virgil, I was done pretending Brett. Pretending Brett as the top guy was a joke which I started acknowledging to everyone I knew. Hating Brett became one of my primary fixations as a wrestling fan for years. Thankfully, rather than putting them off wrestling, it merely amused my friends to know how incredibly angry it made me every time Brett narrowly escaped with another win, and that was practically a weekly occurrence. I was eventually

to outgrow that feeling. Come WrestleMania twelve, he was clearly the cooler persona than newly minted painful baby face Sean Michaels. So I got behind Brett, worked myself into a shoot and actually became a Brett fan on that basis just in the course of a couple of months, and it stuck for the long haul. Just wanted to put in my note that where Virgil understandably saw that matches a beautiful moment in time, in this youngs fan mind, it was,

at least for a few years, a breaking point. He gave Virgil offense fuck you, we're done here? Wow? Yeah, I mean, do you think it was necessary when they went with Brett to have him just completely wipe the floor with certain guys? It didn't bother me as much. Honestly, I didn't even think about that really, that he didn't do that, because Hogan would give plenty of offense to people too. Yeah. And

also look at Savage. Savage to me was one of those guys. I mean, he's what made him such a great babyface was that was his heel. I mean, his selling the way he would sell it was unbelievable. He was he is and always will be one of the best. And that and that was what made it, you know, gave him that uh you know, he because he always like he was about to die, and that's what made his comebacks the more, you know, important, and the they

felt bigger. It's interesting because you wouldn't have had I mean, you have Hogan working all these opponents all over the place, but they tended to be ones of like, you know, more daunting physical stature than Virgil Visa v. Bread, I mean virtual almost bigger than Bread. But I mean with Brett, it was sort of like, you know, he was so cunning

and skillful. It was never that he could dominate an opponent. It was that he was the best at pulling the rugout from under an opponent, luring an opponent into a predicament where he would get the victory and he would pull it out. He'd find a way to win. Butere Brett's you know, I don't know, I think it would have been kind of awkward for Brett to just start steamrolling people just because he had the strap. Yeah, I don't think that would have been a good idea, at least not early on.

For sure. Is the champ, you know, with like the exception of like a Goldberg play or a brutal play something like that, the champ kind of has to sell, you know, you kind of have to you kind of have to give the people when you're the champion more of a show than just you running somebody over, like it's an opening match thing. That's

more of like when you were establishing yourself. But when you're already established, you should know your character well enough that you can sell without sacrificing a tremendous amount of you know, believability. At the same time, I get it, though it was kind of jarring how right out of the gate instead of building, instead of wrestling like a well honed challenger that was built up and

was like top ranked. Then you could see him giving more offense. But he was just like he was having a tough time with Papa Shango and Virgil like immediately, and that was perhaps a little too quick, but they wanted to make him that fighting champion did it. He also did that early on, like when when he was I remember, I remember when I would see him when he when when I first started watching in the fall of ninety one, it used to I was like, oh my god, he's like he

let jobbers beat him up a little bit. Yeah, he would get the off the jobbers would get offense on him, and I'd be like, Brett Hart's weak, He's not strong, right, you know whenever Jobbers got offense it made me feel very uncomfortable. Yeah, that's true about the baby Faces. Yeah, and while Virgil was kind of a job where he wasn't it's not a Dale Wolf getting offense in on Prett. You know, It's not one of those nameless jabrones, right, Leanne, Thank you very much for

your pledge. I guess the rule is if you had an action figure, you could get offense in on Brett. Yeah, that might makes sense. As we were talking about the death of WW, Christopher Cree, a long, long time Rock Solid member of the Solar System, rights in about licensing fees. He says, sorry, just jolted out of bed thinking about this. Totally normal. You all raise this point with Brian Alvarez, but he

really and disappointingly because I love his comment to he brushed it off. If modern wrestling evolved into a business model totally reliant upon licensing fees, and Brad Siegal noted that the licensing fees turned a broadcasting paid WCW were deliberately suppressed. It strikes me that we've then rather conclusively established no less than seventy five percent of the liability for WCW's demise. But Siegel also noted it wasn't his call.

Surely there could have been no more than two to three people above his pig grade with authority to do so, and they're all identifiable for public securities filings. In the Hogan Discovery, I feel like episode three is the ultimate

setup for the massive swerve. While he gets into the ending there, but yeah, I mean, that's huge that Brad Siegel basically says in that episode that what they were paying WCW was not at all commensurate with what a network like T and T would have paid a content provider like WCW in that market in that time. It's not just that the business hadn't evolved yet to be a sort of licensing first model. It was more of an advertising based proposition.

But still, even if I heard Brad Siegal's comments right, even the going market rate in nineteen ninety six, seven eight, what you would have paid for the kind of ratings WCW was doing was nowhere near where Turner Broadcasting was allotting them in this sort of like you know, almost like this phantom license thing, because it was all within the Turner family. The money, you know, like on one side of Turner paying the other right. But

if they paid them, many were commensurate. But they would have been paid if they shopped the rights around. And you know, USA or I don't know, another network like Fax bid for Nitro. The kind of money they could have gotten, it could have been. It could have transformed WCW's budget. I thought there was a very pregnant pause from Brad Siegel in that point. He very quickly kind of had to look at the ceiling and be like, all right, well that wasn't I don't totally shoulder the blame for that

state of affairs, even though I don't know. That look in his face tells me he totally does. That He could have served to improve the situation and chose not to. Sure, Scott Gallagher, thank you for your pledge. All the way up to that mote tier, we appreciated logan rights.

Andy Albeck's entire life, his experiences, his successes, his failures, his trials and tribulations, yes, it all boils down to him being a stock Russian character and called Nosferatu on some Patreon show fourteen years after his death. You never saw it coming. No, carnies are forever. You're damn right, Rob Strathman, Thank you very much for your pledge. Thank you, Austin right. Sorry, JP. But what the brich British folk in that

book are failing to mention. This is when we were talking about that ninety percent marginal tax rate. Yes, yes, that caused what was it Connery to flee? No, it was, well, it caused Corn to flee too. Everyone was fleeing at that point, but we were I was reading specifically from Roger Moore's book, and that book are failing to mention are that those super high taxes are only for the dollars earned at very high levels.

In nineteen seventy four, or five years before Moonriker was released. By what I can find, the highest tax rate was seventy five percent, not ninety eight or whatever, and only dollars earned above twenty k would be taken at that rate adjusted for inflation. That's well our two hundred and fifty k today. The top rates were super high at one point in like the fifties and

sixties. But again only rich folk had to worry about that still though, I mean, let's look, I'm not saying that that it's not a lot of money, but if you're making okay, i mean, you know, looking at looking at his movies, he's making you know about you know, roughly a million dollars a movie. Okay, at least a James Bond movie. So that means that seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. What did you say, he's a twenty k? Actually, well he said two hundred and

fifty k would be the the equivalent today. Yeah, okay, so that's

even worse. Actually, So if he's saying twenty thousand dollars was the was the mark, that means nine hundred and eighty thousand dollars was taxed, even at seventy five percent, that's ridiculous given the choice to like just go somewhere else and not pay it, you know, right exactly, The top rates were super high at one point, like he says, commoner's paid somewhere between a forty to fifty percent if anything, because people making below a certain amount

paid zero taxes. What you read we're rich. Celebrities like Sean Connery bitching about having their income cap that a very high amount so the UK could pay more debts back. There was a reason that US house, the US flourished and dominated the world economy in the fifties. One. We didn't get our ship blown to bits too. We had a very high marginal tax rate, top end was near seventy percent. Love you guys, but the economics part about tax exiles was off the mark. Brother, that's a yeah, that's

a that's a sore spot, that's a trigger stuff. I'm not I'll be the first to admit, Yeah, absolutely, you know I'm not an expert on that, so I appreciate the the clarity on that. I have no idea, but it still just sounds like sounds like bullshit to me. Honestly, you could understand why they did it. Tom ad a Nascio comes in. The UK's tax rates in the nineteen seventies led to a huge amount of tax exiles leaving the country. The Rolling Stones album Exile on Main Street refers

to their life as tax exiles in the early seventies. Very funny. The marginal tax rate was eighty three percent for everything over twenty thousand pounds according to the Bank of England, twenty pounds in nineteen seventy four, the equivalent a bit of over one hundred and eighty three thousand pounds. Now they also had an over ninety percent tax rate and all investment income. That's key I've attacked you can't come tax rates. Of course, you have Tom from seventy four

to ninety if you want to really dig into it. Other famous tax exiles from the era Sean Connery, Michael Kane, David Bowie, John Berry, Guy Hamilton, Tom Jones, Kat Stevens, Rod Stewart, and many many others. Yeah, it's pretty much the entire fucking you know, we're in that. In that episode, we were talking about how more or less everybody who was working on the goddamn James Bond series was was a tax exile.

Yeah. True. Now it was like what all the h the accountants who serviced entertainers were advising, I'd imagine, right, or certainly not discouraging so interesting. Interesting, Winkel, I don't know anything about all that stuff. Yeah, that was a great learning from the Carneizer Forever series, and it continues here in the me Back episode as you've come to expect. Jeff B. Thank you very much for the pledge. We appreciate it. GMB eighty

five, thanks for pledging upwards to that EP t R erosion. Patel, thank you very much for joining us. Alex Shwed, thank you very much for the support. William writes to us on Patreon. IM imagining a time where Cody loses the title and has to go through some hard times daddy and has to work second jobs to make ends meet. We get vignettes of him mowing yards in his flag coat, detailing cars in his flag coat, roofing in his flag coat. But one day, while cleaning out a hoarder's attic,

he comes across a rat's nest. Then it dawns on him, I know what I need to do. He goes out to his truck, takes off the flag coat, and puts on a car heart that is also made to look like a flag. But we can't see the back. He winces as he looks up at the house and says, we got this steady. As he walks up, we get to see the back of the car heart. It says Cotin's rodents Panda, thanks for the increase in pledge. We

appreciate that the extraminader and I've always wonted Codin's rodents. I heard the service is pretty good. Yes, Brandon Lynn, welcome to the EP tire, my friend. Thanks for the pledge. Trevor o'donald, Welcome to VIP status. We very much appreciate it. David Cammonester, a longtime supporter of that mote tier boss. He wonders, can we please get a Mama Sorrow inspired wrestling rink T shirt? Uh? Yeah, I've been trying to think of how to really do it. I don't know yet, but I'm working on

it. Okay, good as later. Thanks for the increase. Appreciate it. Dominic, thank you so very much for increasing your pledge to us. Trevor o'd donald, who keeps going, keeps climbing, welcome to the EPT here, Buddy Cody writes. Old men yell at clouds because a ring announcer adds some energy to things for once. Sometimes it didn't used to be better. Good lord, Boss, you can't be going in on Samantha Irvin like that. She sucks. What do you want? Old men yell at clouds

because a ring announcer add some energy to things. Uh, I'll tell you what I think added a lot of energy to things and didn't make it about him. So I don't see what she's not good. She's distracting. Lee Garcia put a lot of energy in things. She wasn't distracting. You know, it's there, There are there are ways to do it in that it doesn't take away from Like I don't I don't care about her, you know,

like the ring announcer. The ring announcer is supposed to be like the referee in a way, like you they they they have a job to do, but you don't want to take too much attention away, you know, make the announcement and then go away. That's it. It's it's more Michael Buffer and presentation than it is the others. Yeah, but even Michael Buffer, like Michael Buffer. But yeah, there's a there's a thing about Michael Buffer, like it's it's he wasn't even really showing off though in a way,

like it just feels like she's showing off, you know. Like that's where it really bothers me, is that it feels like she's she's showing off her growling vocal skills. Yeah, she's definitely doing that. Listen. She's got an incredible voice. She is amazing. But what she does is just like the thing about Buffer is that he's he's on a different level. His stuff is so campy and and over the top that it's on a different level. Like you can't you can't compare anyone to Buffer, really because it's so

it's so like iconic. She she's not there. She's not at that level obviously, and maybe some days she will. Maybe some days she will be as big as Michael Buffer, who the fuck knows, And I wish her all the other luck. I just I don't think her way of introducing wrestlers is appropriate. I don't think that WWE is necessarily doing her any favors by

hovering on her as much as they do before many events. Right, I feel like she I don't know, she's doing things that announcers used to do at ringside, And it's not like in it's not entirely her fault that she comes off as thinking it about her because they chose I've been really surprised they did this and people love it, so I guess, you know, I'm just disconnected from from their thinking and the audience's you know, appetite for it,

but I've been surprised by how much they linger and lean in and like make it about her, like annunciation and stuff. She's she's all of a sudden become a part of the matches, and it's like, that's not what their job is, at least in my opinion, not what their job is supposed to be. Yeah, it's something that growing up watching Vince's stuff, you know, we never ever were I mean, you knew Fink was was a booming voice, but Fink was like a narrator. He was like,

Fink was like the voice over what you were watching. He wasn't on the screen in those iconic calls. In a weird way, Fink was kind of our voice, you know, like he he when he would announce a new champion, it was our excitement, you know, like he was sharing our excitement with that. Well, she does that, I mean, her voice cracking when she announced Cody one and Philly. She does share she is the voice of our excitement. But no, no she's not, though, because

it's not it's not about cracking. It's not about represents not about being us. It's about it's about representing our excitement. Yeah, and when Fink would do that, I mean, listen, name me another Samantha Irvin does not give me goosebumps when she announces a new champion. Howard Finkel has done that. Yeah, that's fair. Howard Finkel announcing someone is a new champion has given me goosebumps before. When I went back and watched Wrestling forty on Peacock

after getting back from Philly, her announcement gave me goosebumps. All right, well, maybe I should watch it. It's it's hard to it's hard to know, like without watching it back, because she has to be a part of a moment that justifies that. That's the only one so far as far as I can tell, you know what I mean. I don't like how they do the fucking title match in the ring like that. I don't like

that. I don't like how the champion is like standing on two sides of the cage and they do the Bruce Buffer thing where like because Bruce is another example, where like the announcer is like right in the and the foreground. I don't know, I just feel like it. It doesn't enhance the right, it doesn't enhance the wrestlers or the tension in the ring. It just this thing you have to like sit through and it's it could be enjoyable,

but it doesn't. It doesn't enhance the the the anticipation of these two wrestlers clashing. You know, they should almost be face to face with the ref between them. While this is being read as opposed to Samantha Irvin between them with the spotlight on her would right, the wrestler is a kind of like a faded spotlight off to the side. They started I remember when they started

doing that. It was before her, but you know when they started like saving the announcement of who the wrestlers were until both got in the ring for a title match. Champion, Yeah, for sure those world championships up, which I don't mind, you know, I don't mind that at all. I think that's kind of the culprit Like even if it's okay and not like bad, Like if you took that out, she would not I think at the criticism she would get because she wouldn't be well, no, when she

when she announces wrestler's names, it's annoying. The heroman harangues range that whole thing, like no, like yeah, I just don't. I don't buy it. Yeah, she's very she's she's kind of like a sacred cow. I've noticed, like you can't like say anything about her. I don't know why people get very animated. It's like Sasha, like you can't. Although we kind of make fun of her sometimes, but an aw fan, there's certainly shitting on her every dutches of microph fucking. There's no sacred cows.

And and you know, if, if, if, if you need me to, I'm gonna go in harder on her. If that's what you're all telling me, exactly be careful, you'd be fucking careful thinking you're gonna throw us off the scent the one really all you do is exactly make make it more enticing. Doesn't compare here it is, she doesn't compare the voice of a generation, No voice of a generation. Luca Zalez, Lucas Hibden, John Price, want to thank you so much for your pledges and support of

the cast. Very much appreciated. Yeah, Zach's looking for long sleeved baby onesies TLF style. By the way, if you're listening, Dicky Bird adult onesies, Yeah, yeah, we could use some at this point. Considering how much we're whining. Wire Tap eight oh four. Thanks for the bump up to the eptier. We love it. Dicky Bird, just water iful member of the Solar system is showing us the way with some of this merch and also pledging generously on Patreon is as is only appropriate. We appreciate that

very much. Brendon Rosnew, thank you very much for the pledge, my friend, we love it. Someone wrote, this is our friends at the whole ball game. Notice someone on the Patreon asking about a playlist for the Funker matches that were covered on the Funk Journey. Yes, yes, Blake, I'm gonna get to that. It's tough because there's like this big master list of matches that were on the compilation we used for the show, but we didn't watch them all. We skipped some and it's hard to remember just

looking at the list cold which ones we skipped and didn't. But there's gotta be someone out there, right, Boss done this already that I would imagine so recorded to all the matches we covered on the lobs Funk. But yes, a message received, and I wanted to read this on the shows as a way to holding myself accountable. To go through the list one of these days. I mean we're talking. It was over like forty different discs.

Yeah, it's an insane amount of of footage really, and we did a lot out of order to like, we pulled the ECW stuff from like two thousand and six up to the ECW episode and then went back in time. We pulled a lot of the NWA title stuff to that episode, and then we pushed out some of the Japan stuff. So it's all over the place, but we'll get to it. Nile O'Neil, thank you very much for your pledge. You very much support your your support. John from Nashville.

Here's the theory. I don't believe it, but maybe worth reading this in a mail bag. Sure. In nineteen eighty three, Jim Barnett Leteorgie Champiship Wrestling to work for Vince. He helped facilitate the Black Saturday deal for Vince to buy TBS programming in nine in eighty four. In nineteen eighty four, later on the ratings fell, so Jim Barnett convinced Vince to sell the timeslot to Jim Crockett Promotions, and he used this money to fund WrestleMania one.

In nineteen eighty eight, Jim Barnett was gone from WWF but helped facilitate the sale of WCW to Turner from Jim Crockett and then worked for WCW into two thousand and one and all this is true. So my conspiracy is Jim saw the ratings drop in two thousand and nudged Brad Siegel in the right direction to want to sale since he was a ww senior consultant. Then he went to Vince and suggested for him to buy it since they were old friends and he

could get a payoff from Vince for helping. And he also went to Stu Schneider in WWF at time to broker the deal and convince Jamie Kalnder to drop WCW programming on TV since it was a ratings bomb and a loss, effectively allowing Vince to buy it for two to three million instead of way more. Thoughts, I think Jim Barnett's influence at that point, like post Turner purchase,

was much more muted than that. I do know Bischoff kind of resented him because he was still a senior consultant on payroll after Bischoff took over, and whenever Jim Barnette comes up in his podcast, he gets very kind of pissy about him exactly. I don't think he liked the idea that anyone but him was considered the link between the wrestling operation and Ted Turner. But Jim

Barnett's position in that regard way predated Eric Bischoffs. I mean, Ted Turner would lean on Jim and he was a powerbroker in Georgia where they needed, you know, they had their base of operations and needed those that kind of juice. And yeah, he was a guy that always knew what was happening in the wrestling space, so we could anticipate Chess moves, although only kind

of kind of gamed him out a little bit before Black Saturday. But Black Saturday was kind of Jim Barnett's revenge, you know, which you can't forget. And yes, he did go to WWF and help them engineer those earliest days of mega success in a very sly behind the scenes way. I just don't I never perceived him as being connected with the Turner hierarchy beyond Ted himself.

You know, the Ted relationship back to nineteen seventy two Georgia Championship wtcg all that, but I never perceived him as being someone that Brad Siegel would even know the name of. Let alone right, you know turn two for

facilitating a sale or Jamie Kellner certainly. I mean, Meltzer has said that when Jami Kellner got the job Turner and he used to talk to Jim Barnett before he passed away, that Barnett's immediate reaction was, oh, Jamie Kilner hates wrestling, so he knew the name, and Jamie Kellner's reputation preceded him. I mean, he basically started the Fox network, he started the WB network. He was an absolute power player in the television business, so wouldn't

surprise me if his feelings on wrestling were well known. As he talks about in Guy Evans Booke, he even negotiated with Vince at one point in time about potentially putting wrestling on a network that he's probably thinking about the SmackDown rights honestly, in nineteen ninety nine for WB. I'm not sure exactly what was he's referring to when he said that, but he was trying to counter the idea that he has this like total aversion to pro wrestling and can't stand it.

But it was, you know, he knew who he was. So that's one one degree closer than just you know, pretending to know this guy or pretending to have any influence with him to know who he was. But I don't know, I could be wrong, but I didn't perceive him as being someone that was putting deals together like he put like he sort of semi engineered the crop at sale to Turner. I just don't think he was in

that position anymore. Could be wrong. Wishing thought he's always the guy in the background, like, oh yeah, he's around like fifteen years later than you ever thought he was. You know, wwf was I still paying him as consultant towards the end, and he was like talking about John Cena being a superstar before they saw it in him. Yeah, he was like, I'm pretty sure he was paid to review their television, to like watch it and send in his thoughts and his notes until his until his death. That's

wild. I have no clue faster than Chuck writes him in the hospital and I just found out that my right testicle is going to have to be removed I'm devastated, to say the least, especially considering the litany of other tragedies I've gone through over the past year or so. Maybe too All about the hell was that maybe JP could have lapsed. Vince, tell me that my right nut has to be removed. That way, something good will have at

least come from this post. Take it away. He did, He did, he did have it done, and he did He's doing Okay, I did read that afterwards, Yes, he did follow up. Well, first things first, you're losing a nut and you're not really a man, now are you. A man has two balls two sacks to produce the juice of life. And what do you have? You have won? You're half a man. I don't know how I'm supposed to come and empathize with you.

You did this to yourself. You created this problem for you, and then you took the easy way out and say, here's the problem, let's deal with it. He said, here's the problem, let's get rid of it. I can't empathize or sympathize with somebody who can't take care of themselves. So maybe you deserve to lose a nut. Maybe you deserve Maybe you deserve to lose both be completely nutless. This is what he wanted, right, I sure hope. So when you asked laps of Vince to comment, I

don't think you could possibly expect it to go any other way. I can't imagine you being even worth just anything at all. Zo, go fuck yourself. You have no symp You get no sympathy, no empathy, no sympathy from Vince McMahon. Now that's breaking news. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Brett Hard. Yeah, it's very glad to hear you doing better. My friend is by lapsed Vince's feelings on the matter, And as a double bald as Vince may be, I think his his ultimate demise may indicate that that's

not all it's cracked up to be. Either. It's a good point, a good point. Being fully in out in that department might just end up putting you in a position to live in infamy as opposed to uh glory.

So keep that in mind. As writes, I know that Jack and JP are not fans of that far Ferrara, neither of I. However, Ferrara was one hundred percent correct with what he wrote in the article that's the WW magazine column we read on the Greed episode, Yeah, less is more, and it seems like Ferraro was finally starting to realize that it's okay to acknowledge when someone makes a good point, even when it's someone we don't particularly care for. Yeah, but you know what, for me, that is true,

and I'm going to do that for some people. But when some people who I can't stand make a good point, it doesn't feel authentic. And I'm sorry I read that article. It wasn't he was like it was a It was like a torrent of metaphors and like, oh my god. He said he could have said it in a paragraph, and he said it in like fourteen paragraph or probably thirty right, Like what the fuck if less is

more? Wisest column? So long? Right? Exactly? I don't know, it's it's kind of a joke to suggest that he actually had like a actually was anything but like the placeholder for Eric because he couldn't put you know, he wasn't interested in doing anything creative quite at that point. But yeah, I mean, if he was such a great counterweight to Vince Russo, then I don't know how some of that Russo stuff got onto w Ciby television

when they were working together. You know, he obviously didn't crack Whip Whip enough and they they ended up having a fallen out in TNA as well. And I don't know, I don't know. I think my problem is I don't really know what to assign to him. You can write it, you can write that in a magazine, but the television was pretty brutal, you

know, So I don't know whether blame him for that or not. But they were locking some things down, you know, they were kind of they were progressing certain things in a way that made it at least somewhat sensible to watch WSW television from week two. Everything wasn't so arbitrary. So I will give him that, But I don't know. I just didn't think it was. It was very inspired the way he Yeah, it's almost like he's forcing paragraphs, and I don't appreciate that. Yeah, Neil writes. He quotes

Scott Steiner from the great episode Atlanta's a good town. I think Alan's going down in history. Yeah, if you remember the context, and about Eric Bischoff, he says, Look, look, he didn't want to do everything he would have done in the w W relaunch he didn't ask to do everything he would have done in the ww relaunch, which I think is great insight. You can't blame for anything, Chris. Thank you, Chris, thank

you very much for your pledge. Welcome to the VIP tear. Paul writes, is it bad that I wished I lived Bischoff's life, lapsed Bischoff's life, or at least I've had a beer with him? There's a little bit of that. There's a little bit of like love when we go through all of his you know what I mean, cabin life. Of course, it's it's just funny that it's that's living that life. It's the life. The

life isn't the joke it said. It's Bischoff living it, you know, right, That's the thing about it, exactly, It's not the life at all. It's the fact that you you look at this guy and you think of him living that, and it's just like it's just such a it starts to looks like a hideaway more than it does a retreat. And I can picture it, like I can picture him like, yeah, it feels like he's in running away, uh witness protection. Yeah, exactly, it does,

it really does. That's a perfect example of it. James Majory got pretty inimitated about it. He wrote this on Patriot. He said, you know, bishof Southwestern rancher cosplay is an affection endemic among rich boomers and aging gen x, easy right in the cusp. They all crave the simple, old fashioned authenticity of life from a bygone era, largely created by hagiographic media depictions. The Turner Networks made their bones on here you go. Every celebrity

of a certain stature buys a quote unquote ranch. Yeah, that is that is pretty obnoxious. Yes, they crave the wild West from a John Wayne movie. But is a bloodless up a political aesthetic? No must see racial politics here, just tending the herd, drinking coffee by the campfire, on contemplating sunsets. Eric's cowboy costplays particularly rich as it is dependent on the type of massive bank roll that only a high level media career can provide about.

Only he can simulate rugged bankrupt, he can simulate rugged individualism and reclaim some relative animinity in Wyoming. But it's all paid for by reliving every embarrassing moment of his very public life on a podcast. And that's the old min irony. Eric wanted to transcend just being a wrestling promoter by acquiring all the nouveau reish affections, his perfect teeth, his expensive motorcyclist, his swinging lifestyle.

Without the requisite crossover mainstream success, He's as he ever was a classic of American striver hustling until he makes it. By now, he's nearly seventy, and the only thing he can do is look backward to either the nineteen nineties or the nineteen eighties. No, to either the nineteen nineties or the eighteen nineties. There we go. That was I stepped all over A pretty solid

ending sentence there from James. My apologies. Yeah, I guess you can like see politics in what he's doing, and I don't know he's he's he's definitely costplaying. Yeah, But I think I think that's the thing about the American Mountain West is everyone kind of is right, you know, because it's

it's hard to because you're so far away. I think I could be wrong about this, but you're so far away from a lot of economic vibrancy that unless you actually tend the land for a living, you have to have been wealthy to come there and buy an a state like that, you know what I mean, and not have to go to work, right yeah, oh yeah, you know, or go to an office. It's hard to see the jobs that would support that kind of a sprawling set up existing proximate to

it. So you it's almost by definition going to be people who made their bones and now want to retreat. I think it is kind of And Jim Cornette says that you know about the wrestlers that find religion, you know, you talk to God where no one else will talk to you, right right. It's a great recipe when you're not leaving much behind anyway. You're not leaving much behind in terms of like social interactions people would choose to have with

you anyway by going so remote off the grid. And I'm pretty sure he harbors like, you know, paranoia about like like a lot of people out there, you know, like the government coming to take is whatever the fuck. So there's a little bit of a streak of that in him too. But I don't know, whatever, have fun, but it is, it is. It is funny to have that like rancher, to want that Rancher life but want the fake teeth. That is a hilarious combination. Of course,

it's a tremendous combination. Ryan writes the recent Hopper poles seem as legit as anything wrestling. Oh yeah, this is what we're saying about people accusing us of working the poles there, Sean, I'm sure there's proof of concept pilot for reality series and Eric's life in Wyoming ten to two with easy. Two o'clock is a very funny time of day. That's all I'm gonna say

about it. Well, it's a very funn time a day to wrap things up, going take a shower, like to be coming, to be done, to be done, like you know, you know, I'm pretty much you know, I've done everything I need to do. I've gone into town. You know, I stopped by the by the by the brewery. You know, I had a couple of beers. Oh you know, was out, you know, I had I had beers at a bar that, like

I convinced myself, has been there forever. But I don't actually know if it has been like the guy that the people tell me, it's been here forever, but it probably got built in the sixties. Let's be honest. I'm probably get built two weeks ago. There was nothing here before that, nothing, So why would this be the one thing, like like fucking Stonehenge that survived. I would imagine that that it would be that if something was to survive and kind of that that that part of the of the country that

it would be, it would be something happened to do with alcohol. Yeah, yeah, well that's true. The booze has been swilling ever since, you know, murderers went west to claim lands and take lands from each other. Yep, adam too, writes Kevin Costner. Cowboy cosplay plus wife swapping plus name dropping la executives equals Bishop Philip Wrights. Two hundred and forty burritos in an hour would be an average of four per minute, or one every

fifteen seconds for the entire hour. Might be ambitious even for Dusty. It is hungry, I mean, I think so. But isn't that the calculation. Doesn't that how it penciled out two hundred and forty burritos? Is he said it was two hundred and forty burritos. Granted we only saw one tray

comeand right and forty. I'm just so glad we did that because never again can people say that like we're being unfair to Dusty by talking about him overeating, when him talking about wanting to have he booked himself doing it, wrenching, disgusting gas like that was all his you know, that's his idea. Yes to the to the asked to be smelly, to the music Vince made for him, right slave name. You know, God, that's something Cody wants to pretend didn't happen. Yep, does want to be reminded of that.

That run for for old pop. Will said. The funniest part is the fact that this idiot is supposedly from the mean streets of Detroit. Now he turns butter and as well ranch. But he certainly he certainly smokes meats. Yes he does. I said he smoked. I said, I definitely said he'd churned butter. He prefers that way goes out. He gets the fucking milk from his own cows and then he sits there. But he's got

like a he's got like a weird you know. The thing is he's he doesn't have like a like an old school wooden churn where you're something from like Sharper image, right exactly. Some it's it's electronic, you know, smart device yes, the Internet of things all over the ranch. There's like digital digital like monitors on his on his oxen like butter. That's pretty funny. That's a rich vein to tap how he outfits everything with technology. Of course

he's hilarious. He definitely has a coffee maker that like bruise based on like a barcode scanner inside. You know, yeah, definitely does. Oh, no doubt for a second he does. He probably has a like that lux one what is it called? You know what I mean? Yeah, like the cursive lettering. Yeah, yeah, coming to a kitchen near me if I have my wife by the way, so uh, I speak from a place of of knowledge, William says, to the question about dust eating all

those burritos, he eats them like Joey Chestnut. He stands over the pile and dunks them in big gulp cups of hot sauce and pretty much swallows them hole, chewing only occasionally and pausing to remark, who daddy gots them? Bubbleguts? Baby? So that's good. I'm glad that's cleared up. Matt writes on phobia, mirror phobia shot stays high. I mean, yeah, I didn't hesitate to send us the picture on X Did they Nope, they did not as they as they should have. I visited the phobia website,

he writes, as JP was reading from it. Whoever from a faculty that allows a man dressed like that into their school should be shot out of a cannon and into the sun. Doctor Seawn, No, it's not okay. Yeah, No, there needs to be there's some kind of monitoring. Yes, there needs to be much stronger monitoring on on characters like this. Brian Blake remarks, what, if anything, do people think Bishoff learned from his

three years in WWE and how did he apply it? Because it's almost eerie how his buying WSW plan seems similar to TNH falling on its face with focusing on old stars and Hogan supposedly mixing a young work rate at the same time. Yeah, that's part of why I think we are so jaundiced, is like we saw TNH, like we saw TNA. We saw what it looks like when he doesn't have the shackles that he talks about towards the tail end of his WCW career, and it was fucking awful yep, because it was

a complete miss and he had all the assets that he would have. You know, try to build a WCW round. It seems like I don't know. Man Hockeen Nights CT writes twenty five years after killing or canceled wrestling, so T and T could focus on building an identity beyond syndicated TV shows, movies, and sports. The channel pretty much broadcasts only those things. Yep, yeah, we love drama all right, Yes, indeed do the people

a little behind the scenes drama. Zach keeps coming with merch suggestions. This one's for you, Dicky as well. Over it chopped, we need the we don't need the TLF muffler. We're good to stop at fanny packs, the dustic election. I don't need chop t's to make TLF jeans with brown skid mark stains. Sure, the Dusty collection the Dustin's collection. And he says chiropractors are faux doctors in the same way pro wrestlers are faux fighters.

Very interesting. James writes the manifest Destiny Yeoman Farmer fantasy that Eric lives in isn't even sustainable. He's still on this is great. Isn't even sustainable. None of these celebrity ranches produce enough money for food to be self sustaining. Yeah, that's what I was saying, like, you kind of have to you kind of have to not live off the land, to pretend to live

off the land. That's why he's a fucking you know, he's a Hollywood want to be producer, you know, as he's and that that's that that that pays for his for his fanciful you know, rural life in the middle of nowhere where he can claim that he doesn't you know that he's all the high speed internet right exactly right, exactly, the highest fucking speed Internet, but the fastest fiber in the land. Listen door talking FiOS times three thousand,

actly right. He lives out the land to look like he lives out the land, not to live off the land. Look at my barn coat exactly and my truck again, and everything is smart. That is such a crucial detail. Everything he's got ring cameras, he's got video does on his own, okay, is like go out and hunt that I can see and fish. Yeah, when it when it, when it creates immediate sustenance. Great, yeah, right, of course. It was like he's got a

he's got like so many things hooked up to Alexa. His little microbrew, you know, micro crew beer. He's got you know, his butter churn, his his power point loaded exactly. He's got a you know, like even even like his garden. It's all timed through Alexa to be watered and soiled and whatever. It's so funny. This is the funniest thing in the world. I don't care what anybody says his forefathers. That's so funny. Oh my god, oh shit, Oh so many showers. I know.

None of these celebrity ranches produce enough money or food to be self sustaining. The substance farmer costplay. Like so much of the vapid lifestyle of the rich, it's only possible due to an unseen army of underpaid servants. Eric gets to stare into the middle distance at magic hour, coffee cup in hand. I love how offensive you find it that Eric drinks coffee and at the sunset. That's tremendous, Okay, while an army of foreign laborers do the real

work. Kind of like WCW shit, that's good, good stuff, man, Mike, writes Jack in response to the boss imitating Midwestern dad sitting in a Steiner recliner telling his kids to shut up. And I say, that's as ann arbor as it gets, he says. Mike says, this is on the money, signed in an arbor. Right, that's really funny. So that's good to know that my pull out of my ass fucking reference point

resonated. Zach writes, a very important point modern fans have lured and challenged all broken down old legends that you aren't shit unless you come back wrestle and get a craft a chance. You still got it. If you can't do that, then you're the shits and not as important as the legends that will go through this exercise. That's right, That's so true. Jeff Wrights, how is that Greed episode from that podcast you pay twenty dollars a month to

listen to? They spent over an hour breaking down Eric Bischoff's ranch life, So the best thing I'd listened to that month. John Brinkman, thanks very much with the pledge, same to you, im Hen two five to two. We deeply appreciate the support. David writes. From my understanding, having a scene where a match is on TV like Natural Born Killers is enough to qualify for cinemat Is that true, Boss, Well, yeah, that's how

Natual barn Killers was was eligible because there was wrestling on the screen. He says. If that's the case, I hope the co chairs do a deep dive on me Familia starring Jennifer Lopez, Edward James, almost Benjamin Bratt, Jimmy Smith set all, we'll do it. There's a match on TV about an hour and eleven minutes into the movie, The Mexican American Chicano Latino. Whatever the fun we're supposed to call our Selsia's days, it would be appreciated,

the Boss, the gauntlet's been laid down. Me familiar. That's a big list, isn't it. Oh, we'll get to it in twenty fifty one. Maybe I'll see what's that. I'm wondering what it's a what it's about? Polly cautiously says what we're all thinking and part on greed in part one, I want lapsed Bischof's Slow Ranch Life. Part two, I want

to chair at laps Dusty's Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, that spread sounded fucking amazing, and my innersnight is going to be woefully inadequate compared to the description thanks so what we're here to do. Ryan Schwartz, thanks for the pledge. Welcome to the eptire. My friend Luke writes, Bischof's fictional life actually sounds incredible. A lot of that coming in across the transom. Yeah. Justin Harmon, thanks for the media pledge. We appreciate it. Martin Zamora,

thanks for jumping up to the eptire. Same to you, Dorian Brown, enjoy under the cinemat. We appreciate your support. Ken Canal, thank you very much for the pledge. Same to you, Steve, and same to you Rich Molton. Longtime supporter. Andrew Hill, thanks for the meaty pledge. Do enjoy. My friend, this is JW. Can you imagine actual human investors listening to Bischoff's convoluted words. So, like we read from the WW magazine, I like to think the deal was canceled when they saw the

article in the wrestling magazine. The other conk the only concrete thing in that whole interview was mentioning Bill Goldberg and five other wrestlers who had worked for WCWE. That was some that was eye opening to read what he was putting out there in those those fertile days. All that is really fascinating. John Callahill, thank you for the pledge. John Kraft, big time Dick swing and write it to the moat tier. We love it. Grek Taylor, thank

you so much for jumping up to the executive producer tier. Arpi and Polo Dog went strong in the paint right up to that fucking moat tier. We love it. Hide the Ball in ninety two, thank you so very much. In Taylor Hammond just became a three sixteen member, and we thank you for that. We mentioned earlier, Nikki writing that the cast was played no small part in inspiring We talked about inspiring artwork, we talked about inspiring other

podcasts. We talked about inspiring music and other beautiful things. And Nick talked about how the podcast inspired him to try to unionize his workplace. Remember that one boss, I like that. We dropped that and he followed up on the tail end here to close this episode out with something that I think puts a bow on it nicely. I messaged at the end of the Funk Journey that the Funker was inspiring in our fight to unionize our workplace. I'm here

with the update that we've won our case. With the stat and the words of the body. I got my union. I got my union. When we sign a contract and the raise kicks in, you bet your ass. The co chairmen are going to get a taste. Hey, love it. You're in my ass basically the entire time I'm working. So if my pockets are going to get fatter than so are yours, I need to dive into that moat. And that, my friends, is the way it should be,

and in that spirit of TLFX and the way it should be. We've got one announcement here as we wrap up this summer twenty twenty four Millbag Edition, very special tournament is about to kick off. Yes on the feed, you've seen laps fan Hall of Fame moments drop in fuego on the feed, you've seen TLFX testimonials from so many of our insightful listeners, and you've read to heard us read through letters coming here on meal bag shows and other formats.

You've seen LATS transform access to the catalog. You've seen so many wonderful innovations from the best fans in podcasting, and this is one we're really excited to bring to you. The time is now. The time is nigh halfway through our ten year celebration announcing the TLFX games. Yes King of the Cast, Yes, King of the Cast. Put together by listener Russell, who's done yeomen's work on all this stuff, is our countdown tournament thirty two in

the bracket to determine Boss the greatest tlf character of all time. Thirty two entrees sixteen matchups really should have like a thousand, but you know, to keep it easy, I suppose thirty two is good. I would love to hear feedback at the LAPS fan at gmail dot com if anybody is missing from this list, if anyone should be taken off of this list, But in consultation, here are the thirty two we've decided on and keep it locked to our x account. This is all going to take place on X. We're

going to be posting matchups between lapsed characters and the full bracketing. We're going to post perhaps some insights and some thoughts from the the various participants. Maybe I don't know Boss, maybe some event center promos to come might need to have that yeah about their upcoming opponents. And by the time it's all said and done, you will decide which tlf character has entertained you the most over the course of ten years, and there's going to be some tough choices.

You probably already have your candidate in mind right now, but maybe it's it's a toss up between two and what if those two face each other in the

first round, who are you going to pick? That's right. So we'll use x's polling function to basically pull the solar system for a finite period of time on each of these matchups, and by the time we finished le breting TLFX at the end of this year, we will have determined not only are these great Hall of Fame moments, but the greatest lapsed character of the past decade. And now presenting the bracketing he has an audio form and coming in

visual form very soon to the lapsed fan's ex account. Are you ready, boss, I'm ready. In the first round, the British Bulldog versus Lee Marshall, Oh, good lord, good Lord, Sid versus Stu Hart Well, I heard Sid isn't going to show up though. Lanny Poffo versus Klondike Bill. Some of these are just funny just to read. I mean, you just think about it. Kevin Nash versus Fritz von Eric. Ooh,

that's tough. Andre the Giant versus Bob Coddle Vern versus Harley Wow. Jesse versus Oie Wow Jr. Versus Sean Mooney Warrior versus Vader, Kevin von Eric versus Terry Funk. Oh, my God, Flair versus Rod tron Guard Wow, Dusty versus Jim Hurd. That's a tough one. Jesus Loise, What are these folks gonna say in the spirit of the American election this year We've seen elections across the world, the UK, France, in this campaign, this TLFX campaign, what will they be saying on the hustings to get your

support? Savage Savage versus lapsed Hogan whoa mega powers collide? That's that's that's I mean to think that in the first round one of those two is going to be gone. Yep. That's what a good tournament does. Crazy lapsed Scott Hall versus lapsed Jimmy Barnett, lapsed Vince versus lapsed Patterson. And finally lapsed Lord Alfred Hayes versus lapsed Stone Cold Steve Austin. It's the king of the cast. It's TLFX games, and it's coming to an next account and

a podcast feed near you. Get your ballots ready and look forward and keep your ears peeled as well as your eyes for the cases that will be made across the spectrum, across the brackening. You know who you think is going to win as we read all those names off, But will you feel that way as the weeks turn and the winners and losers are decided and people you thought would go further? Don't tough decisions to come? But that's, of course the way it should be. As we soldier through ten years of lapsed

We'll see you next time. Announcement. As a t J to Santus production, its content is intended for private use only.