A TLF Special Report: 'The Smashing Machine Review'

It's the lapsed fan wrestling podcast with Jack and carn S e O and JP sorrows.

He's a lapsed fan and all my years and wrestling.

You never seen anything.

And it's the laps fan name like the one in the ring. Forget about Sado. He the real king of swing when the bell goes in and the kick like me throwing in the corner but gets lashed like stick. Even Jerry King can take off the crowd nodded in his head like it. Steve low Brown, would you get low down? We go even high up?

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And pos you know sometimes class we need a palette cleansers. We're in the middle of the complete Hulkogan. We're bombarding people and we know we're about to hit him even harder than they could ever imagine. As the story of Hulkoguan unfolds. But you know, sometimes sometimes duty calls. Sometimes the solar system says, you know what something's happening out there, be it in wrestling or at the box office, that just requires our immediate attention for us to clear the

Does the Smashing Machine featuring the rock count? Yes, yes, it absolutely does. I mean this is the this is the next Iron Claw, basically is what it is. You know, it's the same We're in that same vein where we're trying to create, you know, dramatic and award worthy combat sport picture motions.

Yes, we're we're making film about the psyche of the combat athlete and leaving more unspoken than said. It's the Smashing Machine, and your co chairs have both seen it independently of each other, and our guest today, LAPS fan

This is your nineteen ninety one WWA.

But it's not quite in the special spot.

My special spot is November two thousand and two to like early early two thousand and six.

But yeah, it's it's there. Like the Smashing Machine. That's the thing too, Like I don't know.

How to look at this film because like it's a dramatic motion picture, but to me, it was just like, Okay, are you guys going to screw up one of my favorite documentaries of all time?

Yeah.

That's one of the great perspectives that you're going to bring here is that you know the documentary before the film. Boss has never seen the documentary, never.

Seen it, ever heard of Mark Kerr before Boss, not before the Rock was going to play him.

Okay, perfect. So we've got both sides. We've got someone that knew as much about Mark Kerr as one could ever expect, and someone had never heard of him before. And I'm somewhat in the middle. I mean, certainly having seen all of his fights and everything and having seen The Smashing Machine several times.

So this is going to be good.

This is going to be I think a really appropriate TLF treatment of this attempt by Dwayne Johnson to take his MMA mark Them and turn it into an Academy award.

I think it.

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Does it does it go in your ass?

I would recommend taking it orally I do. I do worry about compaction if we're if you're taking this down through your mouth and we're going up your ass, that's kind of I don't know, there's gonna be there's gonna be kind of a h.

There's just another opportunity. Who's going to come with a solution for that. Still waiting for the lube guys to come through. I know, I know you're out there, all right, all right, Okay, so we got to start where we got to start. JP saw the movie Everyone Wants to know. Top of my thoughts go, I'm I'm gonna say this. So I did go see it with a friend, okay, and and I did it with a reason. I went to see it.

I was going to go alone, but then I I I had some I knew somebody who was not busy, and I said, why don't you come with me to see the movie? Because I was like, you know what, I want somebody who's not in invested in the rock to watch this as well. Yes, And the first thing he said, when if we walked out of the theater, there's no way he's winning an Emmy. How unfair. And the fact that he said Emmy just also blew my mind. Emmy right, Yeah, I I, I mean, there are a

If you could describe what it is you saw him do that he'd never done before, well, I mean.

You've never really seen him like try to take on the persona of somebody. And again, I don't know, Mark Kerr, I don't know. We've seen him at the end of the movie. Spoiler alert for those not that it's a big deal. It's not even a spoiler. It doesn't do anything. It's just like you see him, you see him in the end in real life. And okay, so I guess in real life the guy does sound like Vince Vaughn as the Rock was doing, because that's what I thought

Yeah.

Sorry, that's that's what we inadvertently do every tangle time. That's what I look at and I see. And also then he shaves his head and he looks like Batista. I was like, you know, it looks like like current day Batista with the big eyebrows and like, you know, his face is weird now Batista's and it just was. It was hard. But I want to say so there are compliments here because he gave a very subtle performance.

Yeah, that was that was try hard a twenty four like let's juxtapos blah blah blah blah blah.

It just didn't.

They just didn't. And you know what, trying hard that's what it felt. Not even it didn't try too hard. There are movies that you see that tried way too hard. This was almost trying hard enough to act like we're not trying well. I think what's fascinating in a couple of fronts and return to TJ. You know TJ.

If you've seen The Smashing Machine, one of the things that strikes you is that this, to JP's point, is probably so breakneck of a pace and flies through things that you know the viewer might want some more meditation on because it's it's damn close to a frame by frame remake of the documentary. It's unbelievable.

So to be fair, I called it my favorite documentary. I haven't watched it in twenty years. I have a copy of it on DVD. It's one of the so like when Fight Pass launched, I got rid of everything. I got rid of all my Pride DVDs, my UFC DVDs, and I kept like a handful of DVDs that I was like, probably can't replace this one, and The Smashing Machine was on that list, and I wanted to watch it. I wanted to watch it before I went to go

Dollars for a DT player. No, no, no, okay, okay. Yeah.

So the things that stuck out to me that I recall from the documentary, uh, we're very gripping because it was like, uh watching something that lived somewhere deep in my brain but I had, you know, horribly uh misremembered it. But then again, I'm watching the rock uh act out these memories in my head. But yeah, I think when when you said JP, that's like, why does this story need to be told? It was such a groundbreaking documentary for the time, like it came out in two thousand

I totally forgot it was on.

What's funny about that is I got it like a week after. Uh it premiered on HBO. In the eBay sale was canceled because they had some sort of piracy goddamn piracy of people get that joke, you know, enforcement there, And uh, I still contacted the seller. I was like, Hey, I don't care if eBay doesn't give me shipping insurance or whatever.

Can you just send the damn VHS? I need it?

And uh so, I haven't seen it a long time, but you know when he asked the Pride doctor backstage if they have anything harder? Uh that was really gripping the shot. I don't know if it really looked like that. I remembered it much differently, but.

I remember a dialogue just quickly.

It's him asking the same question, but he doesn't have that smart ass remark to Emily Blunt.

About oh, look, age, I guess they're just an advil. Just have to take adviil. He doesn't. Yeah, duy, Dwayne takes it a little further.

There isn't that much shift follow up after, but he does kind of roll his eyes because because the Japanese doctor says you need certification to get that, and he rolls his eyes and they cut away fast. But it's actually I laughed out loud in that scene when Dwayne makes a joke about just a couple of advil and like, you know, what the fuck is this? You know, like, I'm not going to get high here, doc? So is it kind of like is it basically a beat for beat like remake of a lot of it is?

Yeah?

I mean the parts that that really stuck out to me is like, Okay, this isn't in the documentary is a lot of like the domestic stuff at home, you.

Know, they don't have they don't have cameras when she takes the gun out, they just have Mark sitting in a chair describing the incident, and they they they show a picture of his gun, but they don't they weren't in the room when she tries to shoot herself.

I mean, it's just see that to me right there, it's like, why are you covering beats of a story that's already been told? Like you should be covering the beats that haven't been told yet. I know that I get it. You know, I've never seen the documentary. I don't even know about the documentary until this this movie was announced.

But I.

It's like, almost in a weird way, what they should do is and maybe they will do this, but you shouldn't do it now, honestly, because people are gonna watch the documentary and people are gonna watch the movie, although maybe they won't because it did so poorly in the box office, but people are gonna watch and they're gonna say, well, wait a minute, it's the same fucking story. And like I was saying, why don't you re release the documentary with the home video version of of the this movie?

But it's I can tell you real quick, JP, they are doing a re release. I don't know if people know that. I don't even know if I was supposed to say that. I had a warm conversation with Mark the day after I saw the movie, and I'm supposed to interview him tomorrow.

I don't know if that'll happen.

He said he didn't have time to do the interview with me when we talked, but then we talked for an hour and a half, and I.

Was like, why do we just about right? Yeah, but that's an mma fighters right there big time to be fair.

I mean, that's the thing too.

You guys probably know this. You've done some interviews lately. Like the idea of what an interview entails these days, it's much different. Used to be just jump on the phone. Now it's like I got to get a backdrop because we were doing video. And it's like, I can see why he didn't actually do the interview that day, because I talked to him while I was in his car the entire time.

But right, yeah, I don't know.

So it's interesting that the documentary piece, I think, you know, it's obviously become rarefied. It's hard to find on DVD, and and if you and if you've seen it, you have definitely the perspective you're saying JP that you know, it doesn't really it doesn't really make sense that you would want to recreate it so faithfully. Now, I will say that I purposely did not watch the documentary again before the film because I didn't want to just be distracted.

Yeah, so it's interesting.

I have a deep history with Mark that I didn't really even realize until he and I started chatting. One of the first interviews I ever did in MMA was when he's supposed to fight Wes Simms in Colorado. And I didn't ask her about this, but like this, this would be a story I would really like to know about, because like his career carried over, you know, much longer

I don't know what happened. Uh, you know what happened.

Yeah.

That's part of what.

Made this led not to interrupt you just quickly. That's part of what this documentary legendary too, because after it came out, Mark did a series of things. We're like, oh, I know what's going on there because you saw the doctor.

Yeah, like he thought in Pride. After this and basically got d d ted and knocked out. That that was the joke. I get, not joke, but like the guy that he fought I.

Think his name was Yoshihisha Yamamoto and yamamotos and I ddted him would really kersh on a double leg and knock himself out.

On knock himself out?

Yeah yeah, but like yeah, so, like I have questions for Mark, and I was upset that I wasn't in the last scene in the movie because after Mark finished his last pro fight, he Shannon Rich, who no one knows, but I encourage people to look up Shanne and the cannon and Mark's manager Ken Pavia, gave me a ride back to the hotel after Mark got beat up pretty badly by King Mo. And it was in a yellow Hummer.

I like that I didn't realize it was King Mo that was his last fight.

Yeah.

He had one of those long tail ends to his career where it's like, okay, Mark, like it's really you really ned to start? Uh, JP did you know anything about Pride, Like what did you think of like the essence of this Japanese fighting.

I do remember Pride, actually because I remember, I mean, you told me about Pride, honestly, like you you briefly educated me on on on on Pride. And I think the depiction of the fight scenes like that that whole world besides the well, I'll tell you what I you know, I don't know. I don't know MMA as well as you guys do. I I've seen my fair share of it, I tell you. While I do appreciate to a degree like that there there was an essence of I like the way that it was shot. I liked the way

Before, like films like Warrior, TJ and some others that have tried to portray MMA on the screen. And I know what JP's saying, it it's hard. It's hard to make fight scenes in a Hollywood movie look like a real fight in an octagon. And I did feel like there was kind of a disconnect, like kind of the the way the guy's head snapped back on punches, the way there was who a lot of wind up to the punches. What did you think of the depiction of Pride fight scenes in.

This Yeah, I mean I didn't hate it. I expected it to be that way.

You know, when when I watched movies, you know, I come from an MMA point of view, and like, I understand that things have to be over the top for you know, entertainment purposes. When I critique fight scenes in movies. It's more when it's like a martial arts sort of thing, it's like, well that doesn't work, You're not going to do that. But like you know, like not everything can be on Boch. Like, I think that's a nice mixture

But I didn't like who they cast there.

So you know, Rick Flair, how do I say, Rick Flair and Harley Race and the Iron Claw.

Yeah, like those guys actually have like scenes.

I'm just upset that a guy who gets beat up in twenty two seconds doesn't look like the actual guy.

Well, no, what I'm saying, the guy, the the actor that Iron Claw didn't look anything like. I mean, they looked all yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But those are iconic guys like Paul Varlins is I don't know, I can't think of a mid card jobb er enough.

To beat Ralphaularlins actually did an ecw angle with Taz. We've talked about that before, That's right, Yeah, of course he wrestling fans might remember his his look, and he did some like shoot style wrestling matches as well.

But but yeah, you're right.

I mean, the guy that that Dwayne beats up in this movie is supposed to Paul Varlins looks like a guy selling you the big Green egg and hardware store.

Yeah.

That wasn't even the worst casting job in my opinion, though it really bothered me that in the I think it was the ends and in a way fight for Kerr. The referee is Gary Copeland, who's commonly referred to as Mini Brock in the MMA community because he looks like Rock Lesnar but only five for four.

I encourge you to google Gary Copeland while.

He was a Pride ref in the movie, the only time I can recall an American being a referee for Pride. You know what, I know that's your laugh. I know that's your laugh to seeing Gary Copeland right now. But my insecure I'm too much of a hardcore is driving me crazy that I'm about to make a reference that nobody gets.

But I mean, is that is that not mini Brock totally? Is it could be?

Like it could be it's Brocks, like uh, you know stunt double.

It's his munchkin, is what it is? Right, he's not very tall.

I've got a bunch of them, like in a river under his mansion like Ompalompis or something.

But that really turned me off though, Like that really turned me off because there was never an American ref in Japan for Pride other than maybe Matt Hume. And I think he did the Hoys Graciehiko Yoshieta match the second one because there was controversy in their first meeting. But like, I, oh, by the way, JP, you saw this with one person a friend. Yeah, I saw it with one more person than you. But we were the only three people in the entire theater.

There was one other person. There was one other person with us. There was three people total.

Okay, so we saw with the same amount of people in the sense that was probably other moviegoers.

Three.

I don't know is this is the second time I've been to a movie theater since the pandemic. The only other movie I saw was Top Gune because I thought I had to see that in the theater.

Yes, but maybe Matt and A's are just dead now. I don't know.

And the worst part is I had to ask the two people why they came to see that movie, and like my social skills were not firing.

Because I walked in the theater and I sat.

I sat next to them because it was like a sign seating and I wanted to take my rightful seat, and uh, they said, are we in your seat?

We moved. I was like, no, you're good, and then I just looked at them and went, why are you seeing this movie?

And I.

Need to add contacts and why I'm asking in the wife of this couple, she did not want to be there. It was very she did not want to be there. But apparently there were two retirees and they just go see a movie every Wednesday. So that was the one that they decided to go see. But uh, yeah, Gary Copeland, like I almost wanted to like look at this couple and be like, that's terrible casting, but I digress.

But yeah, that's I'm glad you mentioned that. I forgot all about that. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and was like, Okay, that's uh, that's a fun decision. They they go through the thing. You know, I didn't realize that this would make for such a strange moment when you do a fictionalized, dramatized for of the documentary. But MMA fans know that the Pride two thousand Grand Prix Tournament does not end with Mark Kerr

Boss.

Were you like thinking, this's got to be the end of the movie he fights his friend because I they went there and it's like people are not going to be happy with how it turns out, because the thing is, it's it's not the first time they mentioned it in the movie.

I mean they they mentioned it several times in the movie that there that like you know, imagine if we got you know, no No Da and I was like, oh, okay, so this is something that's going to happen, and we may see the the the a friendship dissolved right in front of our eyes, and I was like, okay, this is this could be good. But then it doesn't happen, and it was kind of a letdown, you.

Know what's funny about that? So I was not an MMA fan when the Pride Gram Prix happened. I don't even know if that was really a storyline. Could Coleman fight Kerr? That tournament was just so jacked up and messed up to begin with. I mean because soccer robas in the tournament, he fights Hoyst Gracie.

But that's the only match. You made him a tournament jack. You made him in my No Mercy game. Oh yeah, yep for that reason.

Yes, so soccer Rob is gonna fight Hoyst Gracy in this tournament, but they're the only match that has unlimited rounds that could go on forever.

Right, Wow, how is that fair?

Because you had to make all these special rules to include Hoist because he had.

His you know, was ninety minutes long. Everyone else us maximum twenty ninety minutes.

It's total legendary shit. And that's so funny is films like this make you think that the main thrust of interest was Mark Kerr and and Mark Coleman and the Americans and everybody was there to see soccer Robba. Everybody was there. That's why it was such a phenomenon. And they don't really do what Dave Meltzer pointed this out. I thought it was a good point, kind of like how The Iron Claws struggles to get across how big of a deal the Von Eric's really were in Dallas.

But yeah, that was also kind.

Of strange real quick. I wish the film would have gone in a little bit more on maybe the interesting ties that I don't know how to say interesting ties that Pride had because like, this is a company that

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's sending down so like a language barrier, but it's it's not a language barrier, it's a fuck you barrier, you know.

I mean around this time, the owner of Pride, like a couple of years before this, like, was found in his office hanging from a noose.

Yeah that was that was k One. Wasn't it wasn't Oh that was k One.

You're right, right, but but but here's the thing. They all kind of run together. To me, the business was basically ran similarly.

Yeah, well went down. It actually collapsed. Pride collapsed and lost a television deal because newspapers and magazines in Japan started to publish articles about that. And the thing about it is that everybody knows it in Japan, but you can't confirm it. Once it's confirmed, everyone has to has to run away from it and wipe their hands clean. And therefore Pride was dead. One thing you do remember, boss, was when UFC bought Pride. I remember you're saying for some reason, you remember that.

I do. I do remember that. And because wasn't that It wasn't that Mike Mike crazy? Was that? Wasn't that around brock Lessner's kind of two thousand. Yeah, didn't wasn't that the right? Wasn't that the the unification match? Didn't he have that unification match? Wasn't it the Pride former Pride Championship and the UFC Championship that was being combined?

No?

No, no, they were because crow Cop was coming over as part of the purchase and they were making the deal. Came before the purchase, before the purchase, and I think it of Noghera, whom.

I think, uh, no, Ghara came after. I think what you're thinking of is Quintin Jackson. He fought Dan Henderson. I think that was after the purchase, and uh the worst part is the UFC kind of dropped the ball on that it was. The event was called Champion versus Champion, But if you were a casual MMA fan, you wouldn't know that Dan Henderson was there. I guess they called it middleweight champion. We call it white heavy.

It was it wasn't a heavyweight, right.

So when I'm when I'm looking at this on Emily Blunt Boss, I'm glad you brought her up because in the documentary, I mean, Don is a strong character and you get a lot of the same vibes, but you know, Emily Blunt take takes it to a whole different level in terms of like just she's not the she's not the star of the documentary, but she is like very much the star of the movie.

Yeah.

And I'm trying to like figure out, well, what is it about what she did that that that that you really appreciated. And I'm trying to figure out if that's her channeling the dock or going beyond the dock.

I mean, it's it's it's a how to describe it. It's basically I saw her just being open. She was just open. She was open to receiving whatever was happening in the scene. Yeah, and she was then using it and she was reacting to it, and she was you know, it was a behavior thing, you know, her behavior was

Got stressed that awkwardness of being in the room when he's trying to be a fighter.

You know that.

That's one cool thing about Smashing Machine is it really showed you, like how impossible it is to pretend that anything else comes first besides fighting and the drugs you need to take in fight.

Right real quick on that point.

And this is my biggest takeaway, and this is something that's taken me a very long time to understand about. It's martial arts. It's the most selfish sport in the world. You have to be inscredibly selfish. And I felt like this movie actually drove that point home. And that was one of my biggest takeaways was we're not talking about the sport today in this movie because it's changed so much.

I think they articulate that towards the end, but.

The idea of what this sport is, I thought that that got pulled pretty well in the movie, you know, just sort of depicting the struggles in that moment where she's in the locker room.

I trained for a very brief time. I don't know anything today.

Anybody up the street could beat me up, but I will say that when I did train, I had a trainer that said, you know, there's three ways that you can lose in the sport, it's t ko submission or a decision. But what he wanted to drive home to everyone was you can also lose by submission due to girlfriend. And that was that was something that became like, I just thought about that in my head when that scene's playing out.

Yeah, that's this movie gave us a first glimpse at that. I remember thinking as a wrestling fan, lifelong wrestling fan and knowing the struggles of pro wrestlers when it came to you know, royds and painkillers and everything. That's that's a problem unique to wrestling in that because it's fake, they can't take injury time, you know, and they have to constantly be these comic book superheroes that recover faster than fast enough to stay on the road and stay earning.

Ninety six tracks as well.

Not know that.

I did not know that.

Yes, they were basically rivals for that Olympic spot in ninety six where Kurt won the gold and in the Pan American Games as well. So all of these guys were, you know, collegiate wrestlers at a high level, and that's a pretty clean sport, you know, say what you will about it. And and so I found myself thing, well, at least these guys, you know, yeah, they're brutalizing themselves, but they fight three times a year a ton of time to recover that they're not going to have the

And I don't know, TJ.

I mean, we've lost some legendary fighters and it doesn't end necessarily much differently than some of the sadder wrestling cases.

No, I mean, I think pro wrestling is still much more dangerous and harder on a person because of what you mentioned what they go through night after night, but the parallels between pro wrestling and MMA from a business standpoint are too numerous to even throw your way in an example. And ultimately, the men and women that sacrifice their bodies for you know, the sport, it's the same. It's it's not apples and oranges, it's apples, and it's just apples apples.

You know what I thought was strange shapy about the ending of the film. It's like you see Mark Kerr pushing the grocery card around and he's just a normal guy. And then they built this title up on the screen like he never made millions and now the guys make millions. And at the end, they almost wanted me to feel like this movie was about the explosion of mixed martial arts,

Well again, I don't know numbers but Kerr was in the one percent of MMA fighters getting paid at that time.

Right he was, he was fine, he was his six figures per fight, right, I mean, and I got that vibe. I mean it came across that, you know, there there are those there are times where where somebody, you know, you make a movie about somebody and you're trying to make them the person the subject of the movie more

Well, he's remembered because he led a camera film in shooting up right right right.

There's that, but also too, like I that that's my biggest takeaway, Like I like Mark as a person, I like Mark as a fighter. Sure we're not talking about Mark cur if it isn't for this movie. And that's sad because you know, right, he is a guy that is, you know, a part of the the story and how MMA got here. And I think that's that's probably why I feel as good about everything as I do, because in mixed martial arts, we don't reciprocate.

Uh, that's not the right word. We don't. We don't. We don't pay it back. We don't, we don't. There's no reparations for these fighters that gave so much.

Really and again Mark, I don't feel bad for Mark during the time of his fighting career because he was again probably one of the highest paid guys in all of you know, mixed martial arts at the time. But today, you know, he doesn't probably get a Hall of Fame nod in the UFC like he did without this movie, and he should.

He's a he's a guy.

I mean, you look at again, here's a parallel. The WWE Hall of Fame is basically the pro wrestling Hall of Fame. That's how it's viewed. The UFC Hall of Fame is the mixed Martial Arts Hall of Fame. If it's a UFC Hall of Fame, Mark Kurr doesn't belong in there. But if it's an MMA Hall of Fame, he does very much so, and you know, I'm happy that at the end of the day, you have a new generation of fight fans. I don't even know if fight fans are going to see this movie. Apparently not

Yeah, the UFC fanatic does not know this guy. They don't know this era at all.

And I just think it's good that, you know, in twenty twenty five we stop and at least, you know, pay homage to someone who was a very, very big part of that scene.

The Last fan wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need their candy.

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He was someone who you know, epitomized Mark Coleman, kind of did it first on Fry, kind of did it before that to some degree. And they share some commonality in terms of like the pipeline and who represented them and got them into the UFC in the first place. Is these these collegiate wrestlers of note and these tough

Of ranger Stott, Yeah, ranger Stott, Yeah, Greg, let's not sleep on the second whatever er something. Oh my god, it's so bad.

So it's like you look at those opponents, it's like, Okay, he didn't even you know, in the UFC at least if because for purposes of the UFC Hall of Fame data what has said, it's about what you did in the UFC UH in a bride. He did, he did well, but he kind of lost his most significant fights.

I mean, so let me just say real quick, the biggest accomplishment of Mark Kerr's UH career is he won the Abu Dhabi World Championships, which that was a huge.

Part of his hype.

Yep, he was a wrestler that figured out how to win a submission tournament. Yeah, interesting, okay, and he's really kind of the only when was that.

Two thousand one, two three, so after this the time win of the movie, I think it could have been ninety nine. Let me look that up.

I got I got it, I got it.

I got ninety nine two thousand and two thousand and one, and he won absolutes as well as ninety nine kilograms in two thousand and two thousand and one.

It was a super fight he won.

There's no one today that comes into Abu Dhabi with the skill set that Mark Kerr had and even probably wins a match, let alone yes winning his division and absolutes.

And at that time, fans were such marks for this idea that like someone can just come in not knowing any martial arts skills and bulldoze these guys who were able to convince people that they were tough martial artists forever because they only interacted with their own kind. And that was part of the huge appeal of like the first I don't know twenty UFCS was it's like, Okay, now here comes another specimen and we think that jiu jitsu is the way, but here come a bunch of

Two takeaways of what you just said, Jack makes me realize, Like one, wrestling is a martial art.

People don't like to call wrestling a martial art.

I think it's sure the most important martial art for any high level mixed martial artist. If you can wrestle, you control so much of a match it's not even funny. But the other thing is is like if I was just a layman off the street didn't know anything about this, I would be like, why is this movie about Mark Kerr and not the guy who wins the whole Dan Ran Prix, which when we talk about Coleman, I have something that I hope I can say. He didn't tell me not to say it, but we also haven't done

He almost a movie.

He's a movie. I mean, yeah, I got it. That's what I was gonna say. Like it actually seems like he's a little more interesting of a subject because I was like, well, here's this guy who's like they keep talking about him being old and that he's like coming out and like, you know, I'm like, that's the Rocky story right there. That's what people want to see.

Well, he he had just lost a bunch of fights. I think he lost three in a row, exiting the UFC and going to Pride.

And that's why you're so dramatic that it was in the tournament because he.

My favorite part of the movie is when Ryan Baterer does win the Grand Prix is Mark Coleman and tries to do his mimic the h celebration. That was so good because that's the thing too. If you look at Ryan Baters's performance in this movie. And then see the way that he celebrates, You're like, is that a bad take that they just actually put in? Why did he almost fly over the top rope and freak out? That is exactly how Mark Coleman celebrating his pride Grand Prix.

But Mark Coleman's a maniac.

Yes, total not He'll run into a burning building. Literally he did. He saved people from a burning building and almost died. Yeah, that he is. He is the movie for sure?

What did he almost killed himself?

Because I don't know how old he is today, but like he's incredibly fit and his body despite being you know, in great shape, Like he's an older gentleman who's been through a lot.

He can't stop working out. He got sober.

I think the way that he stays sober is by shadow boxing and posting it on Facebook, because that's all he does for hours, hours and like he's he shudn't even be thinking about fighting, let alone actually pursuing a fight with Vandalay Silva.

It's crazy.

You know. I don't pay attention to that stuff so much because, uh, you know, MMA is such a week in, week out sport, Like I don't really look more than two weeks ahead in time, but like Coleman is actually trying to do like bare knuckle fights and he he's crazy.

What did you think of the guy who did the Mark Coleman roll?

Boss? I thought it was great. Do you know that that guy has never acted in his life? I I, I, well, I looked him up after the movie and I realized that he was that he's a fighter, he's a real fighter, yeah, and that this is his first movie, and I thought he gave.

Where did this come from? I mean, this is this guy at MMA, Like it was kind of a joke, Like he had no personality at all. He was a great fighter, so we got a lot of opportunities. He was always in he was always in big fights.

But he was this dry.

You couldn't get a SoundBite out of that guy if you hit him with a taser. And then he's a fucking great actor. I can't believe that. Yeah, I mean he gave he gave a very like I I. He came across like a pro. Honest to god, he was, he was, I I. His face looks so familiar that I was like, he's going to be somebody that I know, Like I know this guy.

But I looked him up. I mean this will tell you actually too. I actually I didn't look at math and I looked up during the movie because there were times I was kind of like, yeah, okay, I got time to do something else here, and and yeah I was.

I was.

I was like, wow, this is fucking here. We get a little a little wundiicnt here, a little alex right going on here, you can put it that way.

I thought, I don't know, TJ if you would agree with this. But and I've heard a lot of other people say this, so I feel like I'm I'm on most people's page. Knowing Mark Kerr in his career and knowing what he looks like in this in the documentary. I don't know why Rock had to get that big, because he is way bigger than Mark Kerr was.

Yeah, I mean Kerr was a hulking figure. I mean, he'll forever be known as a smashing machine. But that was just one of his nicknames. I remember before it was called a specimen before he changed it, and like maybe it was just to drive that point across of like what he looked like compared to some of the

And I was gonna say that, except I'm gonna say just sorry. But like I remember one time I asked you, Jack, I said, well, why don't these guys look like wrestlers? Like, why they look so fucking because a lot of guys like I remember Lesner specifically going back to Lesner watch because he's like the only person I probably saw fight multiple times Lesner looked kind of flabby when he when he was when he was a mixed martial art artist. And I remember you told me it's because they can't.

Well that was one thing too, And I credit The Rock for this, but like he took a lot of the sort of idiosyncrasies and habits of Mark Kerr and you know, actually tried to.

Play those roles.

Like there was a point where he's doing a press conference and he says something and he has an ohio accent just like Mark Kerr does, and I thought that was great, Like I was, I was really impressed by that. It shouldn't be impressed by someone speaking uh, you know, oh high accent, but whatever. But the other thing was,

Yeah.

It was very elementary, so it's easy for him to mimic in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I guess the physique. The physique was crazy, Like I don't know, man, like this guy like you know, rock, Like he knows how big he can get. He saw it in G I Joe and he's you know, your or your whole life on a scientist, fast, Fast.

And Furious movies all the whole.

Well, he's gotten smaller, right like when he did this time he was.

Yeah, but like I just watched a YouTube video about like his shrinking size and people were talking about like that was the other thing too. The film doesn't talk about steroids.

Really at all.

It's all pain ca Yeah. Yeah.

In Kerr when he got knocked out in that Pride fight that I talked about, like, man, I know it's not in the documentary, but I would almost have loved to, you know, see that in like the PostScript of the movie, because he came back to Pride in February two thousand and six or seven, No, February two thousand and four.

Yeah, and he looked like he looked worse.

Than Hogan did when Hogan was off the sauce, you know what I mean, Like, it's just like, what's going on here?

That's not Mark Kerr?

Like he yeah, wow, yeah, for sure he he definitely leaned out. But you know, that's what I think is powerful about Mark Kerr's era is it's like we still hadn't gotten past the idea that the toughest guy looks like a bodybuilder. It was still alive. People still wanted to believe it, even if the earliest UFC's kind of spoke against that, and not until like Mark Coleman went down.

Yeah, but I mean we still see it though today the general public like, what if the Mountain fought Connor McGregor, who wins?

Oh yeah.

I'm not saying people have fully put it down, but the idea that anybody would have questioned Connor having a chance against the Mountain in nineteen ninety seven, forget about it.

Peop would have laughed out of the room.

Now it's like feasible because people have seen how how effective smaller fighters can be, but and just how ineffective massive fighters can be, and how kind of clumsy and foolish they can look.

But even the smaller fighters want to be bigger. I mean we talked about horses beat he beats soccer raba and then test positive, the poster child for being a smaller guy.

Even he got popperoids.

Yeah, once they make millions, they suddenly get those traps.

Did it?

Did it? Also? Did it bother or either of you guys watching the movie that a fifty three year old man is playing a thirty four year old man, because it's interesting because I don't think about it because it actually there were times where I mean especially I'm looking at some photos right now of of it's like if you look at if you look at the this is

Well, that was one thing I thought about like when you said, like the prosthetics and stuff on his face, was it that necessary? I actually do think it was necessary, especially in the latter part of the movie when kerr shaves his head, because I felt like, if if the prosthetics weren't there, when the Rock is bald playing Mark Curry, he's just.

Going to look like the Rock.

He actually to me the kind of did.

But sure he did.

But like without the facial you know, prosthetics, I think it would have been to the point where I couldn't suspend my own disbelief.

He just looked weird on a dead He doesn't, I don't think. And then but looking at Mark kerr Att at that age during that time, pered he doesn't look weird. But but but the Rock looks weird. He just looks like it. It looks again, he looks like the croc. Yeah.

You only times he looked like Mark Kurt to me and I could see the vision they rafter is when he's wearing a baseball hat in thee when he's got I was like, oh my god, that actually looks like

Struggle to look like that. But it's it is true. I think that the age difference, it's like even the even the I don't want to see wrinkles, but just you know, the patterns on the face, like aren't going to be able to look like a thirty four year old too.

Yeah, it's it's it is, uh, it is kind of alarming. Some scenes still, like what he has the Kangle had on backwards too, sipping the beard that looked like him too. They even recreated the bathtub in the fucking in the Smashing Machine that looks exactly like the bathtub and in the documentary.

Yeah, so Kerr told me that the house that they filmed in that were actually three rooms in a movie studio that they built, and they took photos of his room in stills from the documentary and tried to replicate everything that they could from those photos and from those scenes.

Is the rock?

You know, I'm a dramatic actor. Now it must have been incredibly hard. And I talked to Mark a little bit about this, but incredibly hard for him to actually see this he played out like he ends up marrying down in real life and they have a son together, and you know, they got divorced, and like, man, I just I don't know what it would be like to just sit back and watch your life, you know, play

That's a good point.

The documentary comes out after they had been married, so there's subtitles at the end that tells you that or title screen, but it's before they got divorced. So it's like kind of not a happy ever after, but like okay, like he just wasn't. He wasn't he was made to choose this woman over fighting, you know. That's that's kind of what you come away with on the dock and now knowing that they got divorced, and he's kind of

Is real quick.

Getting getting back to Baitter in his performance of Yeah, Coleman, I was talking to Kerr about this in Kerr said, you know, Bader did a great job, but he said the best thing that he did was play a version of Mark Coleman that Mark Coleman thinks he actually is.

Wow, I love that, mummy. That's a great line. Ah, that's hilarious.

One thing I will say about Coleman's portrayal, as positive as it is. You know, the the scene where he goes to see Mark in his hospital room after he's overdosed, and he's you know, saying, I wouldn't have flown all the way to uh whatever. He says Arizona if I didn't care about you. Mark Coleman is did not fly to Mark Kerr. In the documentary, it's two random friends that they introduced to you from Mark Kurr's wrestling.

Days that fly to see him. Shit.

Yeah, And I think that that's kind of it's okay, because you want that's a powerful scene that you know he's in he's in, you know, in in on his deathbed, really in hospice and in the hospital, and you don't want to go through all the rigamarole of introducing these two news.

I'm gonna say you can do that in documentary because you can. You can very easily establish two new people who are just there for whatever reason because it's it's it's real life. But you can't do that for a movie without like wondering, well, wait a minute, why did you introduce them? And they're not going to fucking be in the rest of the.

Movie, right, And I think that definitely would have run that risk if they stay faithful to that. But I think it's I think it's the best, one of the best scenes that Bater pulls off. And it gets probably to the point that Mark's trying to make when he says, Bater plays the Mark Coleman, Mark Coleman wishes he was. It's like, yeah, Mark Coleman wasn't even their bedside.

No, that's in getting back of Coleman story, Like, I don't know what Coleman's home life was at that time, but like it didn't end well. I know that, you know, and and he's battled with sobriety and you know, uh pretty again.

I I just I would. I guess I want to see the Hammer that that movie. I want to see.

It has to happen. Yeah, it has to happen.

You know.

One thing I think too that the film reminded me about that that that smashing machine. The documentary hit me hard with because both Coleman's wife and Kerr's girlfriends say something similar when they both get into fighting. It's so new and so nascent, and there's so many overmatched guys that are that feel like tough guys, and we're in the UFC that a guy like Coleman, a guy like Kirk can just run training these motherfuckers and destroy them.

Well, I also love too that she said, Like there's a line in the movie where she says, I don't know how to like I don't know how to how to be with him. I forget sober because I all I know is how to take care of him. And I was like, holy shit, Like that's and that's that's not on the doc that's Emily Blunt yet that or the scripture that's like, but that's like but that, to me, is is a symptom of the disease of being the

You mentioned that JP and I I think that is incredibly profound that you think that way, because it took me a long time to ever think about that. And and one thing I will say is I think that women that fight are much better off than men in their career post their career, because, like I said, this

And sexist not making the fucking food.

That's what they say to me when I interview them, you know what I mean.

And I have husbands, a lot of them have correct correct But I will just say that, like I feel like the significant others, like I said, this is the most selfish sport in the world.

Uh.

To to go through that and then to have those ups and downs and changes, Uh Yeah, it's it's definitely hard. I mean, Coleman still holding on, you know what I mean, Coleman still wants to fight. He doesn't really have anything other than fighting. And that's the one thing I will say about Kerr, Like I don't know if it's because it's this far removed from his career, but like seems to be doing really well. When I knew the movie was coming out, I knew that, you know, we were

You know, isn't that amazing? Think I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, because anyone who sees this film would come away with the exact opposite impression of where they were headed. But that's not reality, you know, that's just yeah, it doesn't it doesn't work that way. That just the guy who who figures it out in his athletic career is going to figure it out after his athletic career too. And it's the fact exact opposite.

If you retire from mixed martial arts or get cut from the UFC and we never hear from you again, that means your story is probably good, you know what I mean, It's that's really true so many guys. I mean, when's the last time Coleman fought? Like it has to

Sounds like pro wrestling to me, it's very wrestling. I remember when I became acquainted with the vicissitudes of MMA journalism, I'm like, oh, I know what this is. This is like remember the guy who did two epic things and now he's in a dui and now he you know, got shot or now you know there's like a domestic or something and that that's how they ride off.

You know. I mean, and if what you're you're saying about Coleman too, it's like, look at that. He can't even get out of the fucking business, you know, the simenus and there's this is there. I even Dwayne says it in the movie. I don't know if this is in the documentary or not, but he talks about the the high and it isn't the duck too, and it's like that's again, it's very wrestling. I can see definitely the similarities between uh, Dwayne and Mark Kerr. That's part

His description of what he was doing in there. The scene of him in the doctor's office talking to that woman who's horrified that that's in the dock. He he does just drop everything and try to give her a very like calm and measured and polite case for why this is not, you know, the barbaric thing it appears to be.

So you know, real quick.

I'm curious if the documentary happens, if MMA was as successful in the States as it wasn't in Pride, because I think figures like Mark Kerr were very accessible to anybody here in the States because there was a disassociation

He would go cover of time.

Yeah, like he would be ma by everybody in Japan and then would come back to Seattle and just walk around and if anyone looked at him, it's because he was a hulking figure, not because they recognized him.

Yeah, that's the mystique of these guys going to Japan is a huge part of what you're saying. TJ absolutely get it.

If Kurt was doing this in the UFC, I don't know if that documentary ever gets made.

No, I don't think it does. I think, well, I think a couple of things. One if if the UFC was as big in the United States and this time period as Pride was in Japan, and they don't get that kind of access. First of all, right, yeah, I think, I mean, yep, yep, be right, because they're there the documentary crew and Smashing Machine is ringside shooting all marks fights. They're not using Pride's video uh us UFC's video, which they would never get permissioned for, I don't think later.

But it happened at a time.

This is important to point out, this documentary Kurt at a time when while these guys could make big money for a one off fight, they were still kind of like c D list athletes. This was very much an off brand sport and so low budget documentarians could really get access to the most famous guys, like around the Clock. There was one called Rights of Passage. There was one called Bad Blood about the Tito Wartez Ken Shamrock feud.

And that's the thing too, there's no real like Wrestling with Shadows documentary in the MMA scene.

Like that's one thing.

Maybe it's because no one was really interested, but the UFC was never cooperative with anybody about giving that sort of access to so like it's very that you ever see anything like this with the UFC's like official blessing the way they had it with Pride.

It was such a part of the magic, wasn't it TJ Like this idea that these American superstar fighters who you first heard about on UFC pay per views in America were going to Japan where every fighter you ever heard of, and even the ones you heard of just sort of like mystical figures in Brazil and Japan were all going there and all colliding and it's happening on a different time zone and results are trickling in just in text form and you had to wait weeks to

Well, I mean even after MMA blew up here to get Pride was sometimes difficult, Like they launched their Bushido series, which was like their their lighter weights, and in demand pay per view this was like two thousand and six seven. In demand pay per view didn't want to carry it, and the only television distribution they had at the time was Direct TV for that that event, and it was

That sport, that's John McCain killed, you know, something like that.

No, like non a, they called it NHB as often as they called it MMA back then.

Oh yeah, you know, do you know where the term mixed martial arts came from? There's two different stories, just like there is eight different people that said they designed the UFC's octagon.

But do you know Blatnik take credit correct.

Yeah, blad Nick took credit for it and sorted big doan McCarthy and the idea to call it mixed martial Mom did too, I mean she probably did.

I believe her.

The The only reason they coined that name is because they wanted to get it legalized and no holds barred doesn't sound great, but getting a license to be a mixed martial arts promoter and that sounds okay.

Also, also it's the name of my own personal property, tam faith In. The ultimate irony is there were always holds barred. Oh yes, like eye gouging and fishing.

Yeah, kerr by uh put in his eye socket.

That's That's the only fight ever. I think I could be wrong, the only fight ever, boss that is listed as a victory via chin to the eye. Just thinking about it, I mean, hovering over your opponent and you dig your chin and was eyesaw it till he taps out.

Fuck me and told me that was a result. I would have thought it would have been your rye of favor in his chin.

Or Vince's gin. Yeah.

Yeah, But and that was the thing for these massive wrestlers who were just like seeing if they could make fighting work at that time period was it was like there weren't enough rules yet there weren't. And they make a point about this they talk about I thought it was great that they actually included this in the film. I think the general moviegoers like who the fuck cares like what position his heads in if you throw a

You can just smash your head.

I don't remember if this is in the documentary, but Boss says it in The Smashing Machine, which, by the way, I just thought it was awesome that they had Boss play himself that he's got everything you.

To know about Boss.

The there's a scene where they're training and Boss says, oh, you get him down, and then once you're down, you just do whatever, And that's really kind of what the wrestlers were doing. You know, Like Boss was also just this incredibly scientific fighter ahead of his time when it came to, you know, coming up with disciplines and stuff. But like that was kind of what it was at the time. Like if a Kerr or a Coleman got you down, good luck getting up.

Yeah. Yeah.

And and the thing is they could damage you without having to learn ground and pound. Really they they could just head butt you, and they could just torture you with their chin, and they could they could knee you in positions that you can see guys anymore. Kerr need the shit out of people from side mount. That was the position he was always going for because he was very effective there.

What's funny is you can't even need someone in the head from side mount in modern mixed martial arts.

No, you can't.

You can't need munless they're standing in the head and it's it's huge. I mean, if those things didn't change, I'm not sure that so many of these wrestlers would have been gassed and sitting ducks for striking artists on the other side of a couple of takedowns to the degree they ended up being.

But that's all what if MMA.

Geek stuff. But you know, Boss, I think was great. One thing that's in the film that's not in the documentary, needless to say, is Mark Kerr rushing to the rescue with a sick hypodermic needle to save Boss.

Oh yeah, yeah, how funny is that to watch Boss pretend that that happened.

Well, they had to have something added there so they could not talk about Rika Rodriguez.

Right, who was training with Mark Kerr and turned out to be a total liability for his camp. He disappears. They talk about this in Smashing Machine a little bit. He doesn't show up for a particular trading session and Mark's badmouth in him. And they show Rico like dancing with someone pulling a top down and stuff.

And again this is my memory from twenty, you know, some years ago. But doesn't Kerr go into Boss's office and say, I think I need to ask you to beat up my friend.

Yes, And it's an extra it's an extra scene. It's not in the but yeah, deleted scene. You can tell that they were thinking about doing a whole side story about Rico, but he just ends up being a background character in the training scenes.

And Rico's story is amazing too, Like another movie is a phenomenal fighter balloons up to like three hundred pounds, not in the good way and still almost beats one of the top heavyweights at the time. But yeah, So I interviewed Kerr in July, June, maybe May, and I ended up put my foot in my mouth because I was like.

Who plays Rico in the movie? He's like, oh, you'll have to find out. I found out nobody.

Finally got it, finally got him back. Yeah, Rika, Wow, what a story.

So much of that comes rushing back when you watch this stuff. Well, I guess it's time for final thoughts, gentlemen. Rock has gone for it, boss, he has. He has sought a textured, deep performance. Man, Can I picture him watching Smashing Machine and the Gears turning in his opportunistic head. He he thanked everybody with radical empathy whatever that means. Do you have radical empathy for him? Despite the fact that you didn't do too well at the box office?

Did he? Did he do something special here? I think that audiences can expect just a great overall entertaining movie. Well that box has checked. How about others? It's a solid effort I can't deny that it's a solid effort. Yeah, if you came here.

Thinking we're just gonna shot on Rock's performance, you're gonna I'm sorry, No, it's not.

It's not justified. I I I I think it is good. I think it's very good. I think, especially for him, it is very very good. I also think he should abide by his own words and know your role, shut your mouth and just be you know, stop going for awards. I just don't think. I mean, it's just it's just not I don't know. Listen, maybe it is in the card down the line. I don't know. I don't think it's in this one. I'll be surprised. I would be surprised given all the other elements that come in, because

I found myself engrossed in it, and it's impossible for me to decouple my MMA fandom from the reason I was engrossed in it. But I did appreciate how it got at this kind of like archetype that we're seeing now.

There is I'll tell you what that is something because there were so many moments in the movie where I thought to myself and I mean, this could be a testament to both Dwayne and the director. But there were many moments when they were having their their their quarrels in in the home and I'm like, he's gonna hit her. He's gonna fucking wail on her any moment now, it's And.

The only reason he doesn't is because he wants to tell himself a story about himself, and.

Now he's not that guy. And that's a that's that's it. That is one of the one of the most effective parts of the movie is that it really I I I sat there the borderline horrified that that that it was gonna happened, That he was just gonna unload on her at some point, absolutely, and.

I did that's what most movies would do, and this didn't. And I think, you know, even though that's probably just a happy accident, because they were being so faithful to the documentary, and Kurr doesn't. Kerr actually is a little harder on Don in the Dock and a little more dismissive of her than Rock's portrayal, but he doesn't get

The end of the day of the guy than he does exactly exactly you think Don is telling the country that.

Emily Blunt played her in a movie.

I don't think she's leaving the house for a couple of months, No, right, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure she is. She is disconnecting herself as much as possible from this movie. But if she was driven to drink because he was famous for six fights in Japan, can you imagine this? I mean, good good luck to I don't know what

Sure, right, I mean they're both kind of bad guys. Yeah, yeah, those those those types have a way of finding each other in a way at their worst. You know, not have to say that, dude. They're like that their whole lives.

No, no, we did not. That's the four of them. It's Dwayne, Emily Mark, and uh, I'm happy. I'm happy for that. I'm happy show deal. She's there. Yeah, that's great, that's great to hear.

I'm glad she accepts the reality of how she was. Well, yeah, I mean, what the hell, right, I mean, you went through it. Who cares if the best actresses you know, brings it to life?

I mean, and honestly, you know, fucking soak it in and you know, God knows, you probably get a couple of pay days out of it. Absolutely, yeah, And that's that's something they know how to find. So TJ found myself nostalgic for MMA back when everybody cared in which is weird because this is not when everybody cared in the States, but it's when everybody cared internationally. And uh, I don't know, how are we already at the place where, you know, the movies are being made about the good

I Mean the only people that ever reach out to me in social media are like, wow, I saw you come up with my timeline. What are you doing now? And I'm like, oh, what do you mean? I'm still doing the same thing I've always done, Like I stopped watching six years ago. Yeah, it used to be better.

Huh.

Well, which is crazy because they're still selling out buildings and doing record gates. It's just a new generation of fans that during COVID they made.

Yeah, I've worked in this sport full time, h for let's see here eighteen years and uh, most hardcorese today have no idea who I am, which just makes me feel special.

Yeah. Yeah.

And there's a period of time when we had to wait to see these fights on you know VHS.

Or was there was there MMA tape trading if there wasn't.

Oh yeah, huge, especially the stuff of Japan, like Pride was the biggest one, but like Shootout that was, you know, one of the biggest promotions over there. I mean, that's that's actually kind of what the guy who started the website that Jack and I worked for, Shirt Dog, was kind of known for training tapes to get shots and things like that.

Yeah, one of the big earliest draws to the site was that, because you know, the industry was so fragmented and no one really was gonna hit you with a copyright claim to make these incredible highlight videos, these music videos of the craziest things these fighters had done. And you knew these fighters through three four fights that they

It was just.

Jack.

Do you know what? Was there a Kerr shirt dog highlight?

I didn't see it, but I believe so that that rings a bell.

Yeah, I mean there, he would have fit this sort of mold for that, but like, yeah, I don't know, it's it's it's interesting to think about. Because you mentioned tape trading. There definitely was tape trading. It was just more done peer to peer on those sites. I mean well, I mean, dude, I destroyed a hard drive in at an entire computer because I downloaded Jeremy Horn versus Anderson Silva from South Korea.

So you know, it was those days.

Yep, yep, day long download, set it and forget it, and maybe you'd get one fight if you were lucky. After all that, while sixteen viruses always, every one of those sites would just attack your computer.

Oh, pop ups? Is this the download link? Oh?

No, the download link is actually hidden behind four pop up windows that you have to mix.

Out, and then then you would download the fight and would download, and you couldn't watch it because your computer just kept throwing random things and playing weird songs in the background.

You didn't have RAS or.

Needed a CODEC that you didn't have yet. Yeah, that's true. It was enough post internet because tape trade as we think of it in wrestling, as like seventies, eighties and like early nineties or Japan.

Yeah, Japan too.

Yeah, but I'm saying when people were interested in what we call tape trading, the Internet had evolved enough that you could probably download it. You're probably more likely to try to find a way to download it than you would actually have someone from Japan's centre VHS.

But I did.

Used to go to the Japanese video store in Boston and try to find the k Ones and the Pride, and I used to find them. They used to sell like the straight taped off television. Like used to be these big New Year's Eve spectaculars you could get.

Well real real quick. I think it was in two thousand and three on New Year's Eve in Japan. This is how big the sport was there. Eighty five percent of the population was tuned into one of three fight promotions that were on television nationally broadcast television that night. And now it's weird as Pride dies. You know, K one is kind of a thing again. I think I hear rumblings, but like combat sports in Japan, it's really

Yeah it was. It was, yeah, it was.

It was like a mainstream phenomenon. It was almost like it. Yeah, yeah, it was like a spectacle.

You know, there's I mean, Jordan Breen would always say it, I'm not confident with my Japanese, but I think they call it the kakatogi boom.

Kakatoki boom ya, kakatoki being the word for what we think of as mma, because I do remember going at a said video store and asking for kakatogi and getting that look like you're this fucking white guy I believe.

I mean, that sounds like you're in some weird porn.

And I was gonna say it definitely does. I was like, well, yeah, he just say kak I thought, well I did. I'll tell you this, you walked about shame and pain. I did feel more comfortable saying kakatogi than pududesu.

I wouldn't dare. I wouldn't dare tell them. I was a wrestling fan. I want to see the real fighting shame.

So yeah, here we are.

I'm just realizing. Was Lenny Hart not in the movie? No? Oh?

Is that the version of Jimmy Hart? Anyway?

Now, she was a ring announcer who did like this amazing, high pitched style of introduction that was so.

Hard to JP.

Like, look up Lenny Hart when you have some time, because she was larger than life, and I mean when you actually see what she looks like and what she sounded like.

It disclows your mind.

She was.

She was part of the tapestry of what made this more than just a sport. At the time, it was like this weird world, this kind of like video game with real people.

Uh.

That that's what hit me.

I'm like watching the depiction of these fights back then and I'm like, this like Street Fighter, but it's real fighters. But the way Japan set it up, it looked like it was brought to you by Capcom or something, and these guys were you know, choose your fighter, That's how they were presented. They'd come out in a big parade at the beginning of the show and you'd size everyone up and it was it was a time and uh the Wayne Johnson of all people. Bringing it back to

Absolutely absolutely see what you know. We got to get the We gotta get to the truth of the matter, especially after you know whatever happens. Uh, you know, next next winter, I'll bill.

Maybe we'll even interview Ryan Batter, who by that point will be an Academy Award winner instead of Dwayne Johnson.

Dude, imagine, imagine, okay.

Any one playing playing the image that a guy wants to be rather than yeah.

Right exactly.

Ryan Bater wins the Academy Award in the Rock Biopiic playing Dwayn Johnson. Maybe that's where we're headed. Things have happened, but thanks, thanks for listening, and do keep it locked for the resumption of the complete hul Cogan that has come being fast and furious to your feeds in a way that I don't think you're prepared for. So we're excited to relaunch that. And thanks for listening in on this interlude. This has been the TLF Special Report.

Wait wait, wait, wait you can't. You can't end it that way. I need you to thank me. I've been thinking about this since we started, so please thank me for coming.

Oh TJ, thank you so much for coming.

What can I say, but hey, you're welcome.