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Dan: Hi, I'm Dan Erkes. I'm a senior editor for The Lancet. It's the 200th year anniversary of The Lancet, and as part of that, we're shining a spotlight on multiple areas of health. This podcast is focused on research around health, specifically the relationship between a young and more established researcher.
Today, our two guests have a unique mentor mentee relationship that we will explore further. Our first guest is Laura Marcella Aguirre Martinez. Laura Marcella is a 25 year old Afro Colombian physician and a member of the Youth Advisory Panel of the Lancet Child and Adolescent Health. My second guest is Lida Osorio.
Lida is based in Cali, Colombia, where she teaches epidemiology and clinical research skills to under and postgraduate students at the Faculty of Health of Universidad del Valle. I wanted to welcome you both to the podcast, and I guess we'll just jump right in. The first question will be for Laura Marcella.
I was just wondering, what is your current role, even though I said it in the introduction, what is your current role and how did you arrive at this point?
Laura: Okay. Hello, Dan. Thank you very much for the invitation. Hello, Dr. Lira. I currently work as a physician in the clinical unit of CDA Incorporation in Cali, California.
As you say before, and my main focus is the clinical evaluation and follow up of patients with Leishmaniasis, a neglected skin infectious disease. And further, I support the attention of patients with sexual transmitted infections and research projects in both areas, as well as a projected malaria. I participate in academic activities, in courses.
And writing up manuscripts and administrative tasks as well and others. So it's like a, like an integral job and a great formation of a program. And about the second point about how I write to this at this point. Okay. So I think I got this far, thanks to God, to my family, wonderful and inspiring people like Dr.
Lira and Dr. Yoni Garcia too, who always believe in me and encourage me like to. Pursue this path, so also thanks to various national and international experiences. That made me expand my view of the world and considering research as well.
Dan: Toledo, what is your current role and how did you arrive at this point in your career?
But also, how has your career changed compared to how you initially envisioned it or where you initially started?
Lyda: First, thank you, Dan, for the invitation. And it's an honor to be here in this podcast and sharing with Laura in person. It's like a dream come true that we can share what this relationship in terms of mentoring and next generation scientists is being and I hope is inspiring for the generation of researchers that I am in a very privileged position because I am a, um, I'm employed in a public funded university in Columbia, which is something that very little people have the opportunity to have, and it gives economical stability.
I have also the privilege to meet new generations of students of medicine and other areas of health, and also meet people like Laura, who is very passionate, excited, had many ideas. It moves me in my own interest and try to encourage them and give them some advice. I think it's an honor to do that.
I can pursue my own research interests in a very open and academic environment. I'm multidisciplinary, so I can approach many different areas of research within my university and also internationally, so I'm very pleased with my current position. I didn't envision this initially because I thought that teaching was taking time for my research.
And I didn't know how to teach anyway, so I envisioned my stay like a full time researcher in Colombia, always in Colombia, because I wanted to share what I've learned here with and produce knowledge that will improve our quality of life here in Colombia. But I had the opportunity to apply for this job at the university, and I saw it as a way to have economical stability.
So for researchers, it's very difficult around the world to have this economical stability, and this position gave me that. And then I fall in love with teaching and I love that to do an hour or two and be able to have both research and teaching.
Dan: That's great. It's it's funny cause I feel like I'm similar where I'm in a scientific editor for the Lancet, which is one of the leading medical journals in the world.
But my background is I am an immunology basic researcher. That's what I did my PhD in. So I never really thought I would be an editor, but it's always funny how, I'm Career paths end up maybe in places you weren't expecting for whatever reason so I guess back to Laura Marcella given where you are now, where do you see your career and your research going and how do you want to build it to get to that point that you're hoping for?
Laura: To be honest, if the path are changing continuously for you, for Dr. Lita, you can imagine how is it for me. It's every day I'm asking me to say the same things that you just asked. It's like I certainly have a position in this moment. I have like a. Now, but easier if we talk again in two months, or I don't know, six months or a year, maybe my decisions were different.
I don't know. For now, I would like to do a master in public health. I would like to do that only in global health, starting next year, when my fellow It's done, it's already done here and hopefully a clinical specialization after that. I see myself continuing my learning and working in infectious diseases, specifically in neglected tropical diseases and STIs.
But with a special focus in the impact of these conditions in mental health. as well as in social health. So I think stigma and discrimination can affect significantly the quality of life of the patient. Yes. So I also have this interest and interest in social determinants of health and like new ways to, to address them.
So I would qualitative methods about mixed methods. Currently I doing that and however, You say in the beginning, I'm passionate about a lot of things that Dr. Leal says before too, for example, about, about writing. So I see an alternative and valuable way to build global interventions in public health using tools like narrative medicine and medical humanities.
Okay, so I'm convinced that I will find the way, to mix my different interests and passions in the future like in, in order to develop interest in diverse research and public health projects. Yeah,
Dan: That sounds great. I think you have a good attitude towards it, where you have ideas in mind and you're pursuing them, but they're also allowing you to pursue them.
potentially branch off more in the future. So you're not necessarily pushing yourself further into one area. You're continuing to broaden, which gives you, I think, a lot of possibilities. So I guess going off of what you said and going back to Leda, what would be some of your suggestions to help guide Laura Marcella on this journey?
So you could answer specifically or more broadly, like, how do you builds? On a career, on a research project, on a teaching career, something like that.
Lyda: I think what Laura, the way that she has explored herself, I think that's the most important. It's not the content, but the passion that she puts in her words.
I think that's very key to, to build up your career in any area. So it's that. Pursue, keep that passion. Don't let it diminish. Keep that, finding that passion in what you do and you will do it. There are things that, that everyone needs, like guidance, studying pursuing in spite of the obstacles, being prepared for the opportunities, but I think the most important that is that you remain open because there are so many opportunities there.
You don't have to have that fixed work. Or even let some opportunities escape because you are fixing something or you remain open. Also in the ideas of research as well, it's not only your career, but what areas of research and how you can combine different ideas, et cetera. So it's very important that the feeling that you have about what you want to do in the future.
Something that I want to share is that it was very important for me. Like in my mid career was I learned something about a cycle. But I thought it was very powerful. I like Cycle, I like Biological Packers. Finding something that I can apply for research skills it was very useful. This cycle is learn, share, and learn.
So I love that, and I would like to pass on my inheritance slogan, something like that, as a researcher. It's yeah, keep learning. Learning everything that you can. It doesn't have to be a single topic, like you just said already, how many interests you have. Just learn. Whatever you want to, you remain curious and learn about it, but it's also important to share that knowledge.
Doesn't have to be formal teaching, but that you're sharing. You are very generous to others with what you have. And also in that process, receive that feedback, and then you learn from that process too and then keep. It's sharing that new knowledge. I love that and that has been very powerful for me.
Dan: Thanks so much. I don't know. It's really cool to be on this end and seeing you to have this conversation because everything you're saying, Lida, is coming from this mentor relationship. So as Laura Marcella progresses through her career, she can always come back to you for these types of advice.
And it's really great. It's rare. That you have that and it's so important for, developing and moving in a direction you want to move in. So I think we're going to, we're going to shift just a tiny bit, same area, just shift a bit. And I think we're going to talk more about generational differences that we experience because we're all different generations, right?
So I guess to Laura Marcella, how do you think the landscape of research or medicine differs for your generation of younger scientists and clinicians compared to previous generations? Thanks. Okay,
Laura: so yes I talk about, I have certain talks about it, of course, but I want to start having a voice in research or in academia or in this type of spaces like this podcast is a great way to start answering this question.
This question, for me, for example, being in the advisory Lancet, having a voice, having a proper way to express my thoughts and my ideas and my opinions about the digital agenda, for example, that is fallible, and I think that is new, that is like a noble approach, to the new generations, to my generation.
It's not like the common way to do the things in academia it's a new way. So I think the voice is something different for our generation. So this is like the first point I have. And I have a few ones more, like, sincerely, I think as young people in academia and research in clinical settings, we have strong challenge happening every day.
Technology is advancing very fast, and with that, also the gap between the low and middle income countries and the ones with high incomes, yes? Like in terms of education and financial terms and scientific development, like this gap is increasing. That, that is truth for me. So education is a human right, but in Colombia, as well as in most of the countries, millions of children and adolescents cannot even read.
It's nice to talk about research and academia, but we are just like a few of us lucky people often make it to, to the university, right? Like to that professional career. So we the few ones were being motivated in pursuing academic and clinical careers in medicine, but the truth is we have to deal with a lot of problems, like in the context and in this path, like lack of financial support.
like racism, like social inequities, like violence in the streets and even inside the universities, inside the hospitals, like all on working days, etc. So I think for this generation those shovelings are big and those shovelings make even harder to achieve the goals, so I think there are a few differences, of course, but I just want to say that like every day in the world, it's more technological ways to perform procedures.
And to add this to the information, this is easier every day than a few decades ago, if we compare, but the basic needs are still satisfied, immediately speaking, and the human rights violations are happening around the world, so it is hard to follow the academic path, particularly when you come from a vulnerable population.
So that is what I think about it.
Dan: Thanks. I feel like I have so much to say to respond, but no you're right. In so many ways, there's a stat I saw. So I live in Philadelphia, United States, and there's a stat I saw that something like 25 percent all Philadelphians are illiterate, which was shocking to me.
And it goes to this idea that we are in a privileged position and, it's not necessarily easy to get there. And there's all these things we have to overcome. But another thing that you said that really stuck out to me was your voice. And I just want to acknowledge the Youth Advisory Panel because I'm still the child the Lancet Child and Adolescent Health.
I'm still amazed. I think it's great that there's a platform for you to say what you want and help shape research moving forward. And it's really great that this Youth Advisory Panel is there to help you do that. So with that, I just wanted to turn to you, Lita. You can respond to what Laura Marcella said, but also in that, and you've said this before, so what in your career has shaped you and what advice would you give to Laura Marcella to to this next generation that she's in and some of the problems that she is facing and dealing with?
She has to overcome.
Lyda: They said that predicting the future is easy usually when the future is happen already, but it is difficult, which when it is in the when you haven't lived there yet. So it's these exercises, I thinking very cool, but I don't use that too much in, in how things are gonna be in the future.
It's, it's interesting as a good exercise, but I need beer for that or a coffee, a good coffee for the discussion. I think in terms of building a career in the current context is very changing. For myself for example, having a scholarship and being able to do my PhD abroad was key, was very important.
But for example, Currently you have online courses, you can do your PhD online or whatever training. Doesn't necessarily have that this issue that I had at my time, that was, they ran their kids to do that. They have the access to good universities, use good training online. But for me, that was very important.
And now I think the people is going to be more important to actually, to interact with other researchers around the world. People like Laura are more confident about themselves. She say, I got a voice. I can talk to the lens of people. So for that, my generation, I need it to demystify Europe or in US, or researchers or editors.
Because we have this cult that needs very smart people doing very smart things, and they are, but it doesn't mean that we cannot do it or we cannot talk to them directly. But the generation of Larry doesn't need that. They talk openly and they're very confident, most of them. I think it's very difficult to envision how that career is going to be in the future.
But I think the basics of what a researcher is, keeping that curiosity, having certain skills that is going to help to do the things more quickly. Yeah, skills that you need for your research. Networking, talking to different people, being able to negotiate the leadership that we have, and also that sensitivity to being a citizen of the world that Laura was saying, talking about human rights, talking about vulnerability, social determinants of health, to be able to have that complexity of the world in your mind, but at the same time, focusing in something that you can contribute to.
Doing high quality research. And don't lose that big picture. And that sensitivity, that humanity as a researcher is very important.
Dan: Yeah, I I don't know if I'm in the generation that had that same voice, but it is always nice that Younger people feel good speaking up. Cause I don't, I didn't always feel that way.
And I think it's really great. And again the youth advisory panel, the fact that you're even on it is extremely impressive. So you should feel really proud about that, Laura Marcelle. All right. So shifting gears. a little bit more. The last two questions are going to be geared towards both of you.
So we can keep it in the same format if you want, or you can free for all answer whatever you prefer. So I think a really important part of this talk or this conversation is a work life balance. And I know for me that was key in shaping my career. And why I ended up being an editor because I was much better able to have a work life balance, where when I was in research, I was very bad at keeping that barrier and it just, the work became my life.
So I guess, how do I, how do both of you handle work life balance being that you're at much different stages in your career?
Laura: For me, this is a hard question. I actually think that at a middle school implies sacrifice, like I sacrifice a lot, but still I used to do a lot of things, but now that I'm working in research, and in this clinical side too, I'm trying like to But the things in order, maybe.
I don't know, I think for Dr. Lillia it's easier to answer it, since I know her and I know she's a disciplined woman but until now I'm learning how to achieve this balance, for me, it is always necessary to make time in my agenda for diverse activities That make me feel alive, inspired, happy.
So for example, every day I spend time learning German from a few minutes to a few hours. I exercise several times a week. I try to be strong. In general, I try to disconnect myself, like work in the weekends when it's possible to share time with my family, with friends. And also, especially in this moment, I'm taking serious my career as a writer.
So I am working at nights and weekends in my first book. Short stories and that implies a lot of reading and more writing, but like literature, study different from academic writing. So that's a little bit hard, but I'm pretty happy about that, about this path too. So yes. But finally, I think I should improve my time management.
This is like a current challenge. And especially my sleeping hours that aren't still just a few. So yeah,
Lyda: that's it for me. I think it's interesting you then being the only man in this conversation saying that you find it hard. Yeah. Because then the, when we have this cultural roles, like you are the provider, you expect it to be like working all day or something like that.
For women culturally, we still have that burden. care, being the perfect husband, wife, being perfect and adult mother, et cetera. So it's very interesting that you said, for me it was hard as well, because I think that's not the case in many parts of the world. And then the, it's imbalance is, it's actually harder for women because of this cultural context that we have.
And actually for me, I didn't feel. That there was a problem quotes, because it was a nice problem to have until I, I was a mother and and I think it's has to do with prioritizing to be able to reach that balance. Laura, kind of activity, she's very busy. Like many young people, they want to do many things.
They want to tear the energy and they have to, because they have a lot of energy. And also they had so much knowledge, they know how they have to exercise, to eat well, to sleep, to study, build their careers and pursue their interests. So they are very busy, I think more than I was in my generation, but at the same time, I think it's prioritizing.
So when my son was born, I had to, my priorities change. It wasn't my research career anymore, the first priority that has been almost my entire professional life and even as a student. But now my son came first and actually my family. And that, I think it was a conflict because I thought that I wasn't doing any good to both of them.
I wasn't being the best researcher I could be. I couldn't be the best mother or his wife that I should be because I wanted to do both. And that takes time. And it's something that you reflect and then you understand when you're prioritized how you feel better. And until you find that balance, and I think that's finding that, that balance is the material, making yourself more comfortable in, in, in the environments that you enjoy.
I don't think some people choose one of them, right? Their decision is perfect for them because that works for them. Some of us choose to have both, and then it impacts both. I have to be honest, impact both because productivity decreases. That's not necessarily because of my fault, but the context, how much protection we have as women in science to have a context that favor, that we keep our productivity, keep the standards that we want to achieve, or to be able to do the way that we want it, when we actually have a lot of care to do and other activities as well, other duties in our personal lives.
But that, I think that's very important just to observe yourself and what, how do you feel better and prioritize, because sometimes you cannot do all that is that's the truth.
Dan: Thanks so much for that. And no, it's good. It's good to call me out too, because I'm definitely in a privileged position where I was able to actually, Make that choice of having more of a work life balance and like you said, I have a two year old and I'm still struggling to figure it out.
It's really hard to figure out, when to work, when to be a parent will I ever have time to have a hobby again type of thing. It's difficult.
Lyda: And have you found that working from home, is it is it healthy or actually preventing you from finding a better work life balance? So now we can work a lot from home and I see you are at your home, so I love working for you.
Dan: It's helped in that I get to see my daughter a lot because she's home most of the time. I take a 15 minute break and play with my daughter, but at the same time she will eventually go to school. Maybe working from home won't be the most ideal thing in the world, but that's versus something for me to figure out a couple of years down the line, but so far it's been pretty good.
And I do we do have a North American editorial team. So I do occasionally go to New York to see them and have meetings with them. And the hope is that I'll go to London at some point. But yeah, you're right. I am mostly at home at the moment. Yeah.
Lyda: Yeah. I think that flexibility in your employers.
I love that. Policies are very important for the work balance. And I will say the flexibility with yourself, the flexibility with yourself as well to find it. Yeah. Great.
Dan: And again, I feel like we've already answered this, but we'll just more explicitly ask. So this is again to both of you. So what is the role of an established scientist?
So what is the role that they play? say, has in the next generation of scientists. And from just the, from the conversation we've had, it's clear that mentorship is key, but I'm, I guess I'm wondering from both of you, what your thoughts are on this.
Laura: I will start saying I think there are established scientists should be an integral company in the scientific training of young people, interest in research.
But one thing is established scientists, right? And the other thing is, Mentors, like this great figure of mentor implies other responsibilities, I think, or other features. So it seems to me like this is essential to have mentors who inspire you by example and help you to structure your thoughts and ideas.
So I think it is easy to get lost along the way. And yeah, this by your motivation. And despite your hop, like it's easy to be insecure about knowing how to start patholo, how to start a new project or how to continue. But I just want to improvise here a little bit. And I want to tell you like a short story from Dr.
Lida and me. And I don't know, I'm not sure that. She had an idea of how much that, that meant to me in that moment, but I just want to share this. Dr. Rita, a few years ago, went to the library, to the public library when I had a presentation in poetry. I participate in a poetry fest, went to the library to see me, to see my presentation.
I was like, super surprised, of course. And that's so special for me. And I think that it's a great idea and a great I don't know how to say representation of what a mentor should be. It's she knows me and she knows that literature and poetry for me are super important. And she went to that space to see my presentation, like with two poems or something like that.
So I think that's a privilege. And I think that the mentor or the person like are. Being your company, your inspiration should know not just your, about your academic goals, but who you are, who you really are, like, in the middle of your heart what you wish, what you Want to do every single young researcher or young student should have a mentor in this position of being interested in knowing who you are and who you want to be, even when you are just like discovering.
Yes, I believe that established scientists and mentors should be aware. Of the current context, the full context of the students and the challenge, as well as like the importance of the mental health, the physical health of the young researchers, no matter what even the deadline when the deadlines.
In the way that things are difficult, like prioritizing the human being in there students in doing anything.
Dan: Thanks. That was a really great story. It's just like how far showing up can go to show that you care and that you're involved in someone's life. It's really important. So sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
Lida what are your thoughts here?
Lyda: I was very privileged, honored that she invited me. Okay. Bye. And I love it. That was a great experience that we have. And but anyway, I will say that as a established scientist, as you call it, then I think it's meant an older person with four more years in the area.
It's I've been very moved by the importance of diversity in science. Being inclusive and I have been more aware of the barriers that science have to many people let's call minorities or something like that, but the, I don't know the exact word that will work better, but people that have felt that they cannot pursue a career in science.
Initially it happened to me because of my, the background of my family, that it wasn't, and they weren't thinking that economically I could contribute more. to my family as a clinician, but less as a researcher. But they never made me feel that way. They were always very supportive and do what you want to, be happy in what you want to do with your life.
And that was key. So the mentoring of your family, Laura said at the beginning is key. And, but not many people have that, unfortunately. In our society, so we have to be as established scientists being more proactive in how we modify those environments to make them more welcoming to people that may feel that they don't know, have a career in science or whatever reason.
Economically, like I was saying, aggressive in terms of microaggressions due to race or religion or gender or whatever, for women. Remember what I said about having children, so women that want to have children, they said, no, I don't want a science in career because then I won't be as productive as I could be, or I won't be as a good mother as I want to be over a wife or whatever.
So we have to develop and institutionalize programs that make. That science environment in pursuing a career in science is more welcoming for people. Mentoring is part of it, but also it has to be flexible policies, as we were saying before at institutions. Also we have to make differences in terms of how we fund the research.
That will support funding that kind of research and other strategies that we need to develop to be able to just talking about how to be more diverse and inclusive and also in activities. Like you said, like the panel at the Lancet to be more inclusive as well, give voice to different people and different strategies to do that.
Sciences for all. Or we need more people to have diverse perspectives in science to improve it because it's so complex. We need diverse perspectives as well. And people that bring new ideas as well and challenge the old ideas and perspectives. And for that, I think we need to support more those environments that will be more
Dan: inclusive.
Great. Thank you. That was, i, that was a perfect answer. Yeah. I guess at this point I've asked all the questions that I have. Is there anything that either of you want to ask each other? If not, that's also fine.
Lyda: No, just give back our contacts and people that want to share ideas with us. If something that we have said resonate with them, we'd like to hear it.
Is this learn, share, learn cycle? And it is a great opportunity to welcome other people their points of view and their reaction to what we said. I'm interested. So thank you, Dan. And Laura, it has been an honor to have this time with you.
Gavin: Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of the Lancet Voice. This podcast will be marking the Lancet's 200th anniversary throughout 2023 by focusing on the spotlight with lots of different guest hosts from across the Lancet group. Remember to subscribe if you haven't already, and we'll see you back here soon.
Thanks so much for listening.