Welcome back. We're up to episode six of the catch up series of The Lady Vanishers. This time we focus on episodes fifteen to nineteen of the original series. I'm Brian Seymour and.
I'm Alison Sandy. Let's get straight into it.
Our investigations have recently taken Sally to Sydney, where she met up with me, did some interviews and went to the New South Wales Coroner's Court to speak with Anne Lambino.
Yeah.
Look, that was like a closed door meeting between myself and family and presidents cursons at the coroner's court. You know, it was all little daunting going there. I'm not going to it's not going to lie.
You know.
It sort of flooded back to me when my brother died because he actually went to the local current's court. I guess more more when he died, So you know, for me, I kind of bought that a lot of memories and thought, yeah, it was just that was kind of a bit a bit freaky and a bit scary. I guess to do that by myself. But you know, they are lovely people and they sat missing to me talk. You know, that was very patient with me and we
talked for about an hour and a half. So it's nice to know that finally I have people in the South Wales police units I guess who are helping me and has got my best interest at heart, which is really promising. And you know, there's nothing to take away from the podcast that we've created because without that, I wouldn't have what I have right now and I wouldn't
be in this position right now. So you know, I'm eternally grateful to you, particularly Alison, because you know, without your belief in me and the story that I shared with you in that coffee that you I'm sure you thought it was going to be a five minute coffee over a year ago, you know, and here we still sit plotting a lot, doing hits. The investigation Sammy Grime.
You know, it's so passionate about doing the story and Sally and the team behind you guys who are putting it all together, and obviously the clues that I've got. You know, I become super close to them. We talked daily.
They just never give up.
I've never met.
People like these people.
In my life, so you know, for them and their efforts, I'm eternally grateful and.
Has been excellent at keeping Sally informed about how the Coroner's court operates and how long she can expect to wait. During a series of email exchanges in October, we determined that a decision on whether an inquest would be held from Marian may not be made until March or April next year. This was after Detective Senior Constable Gary Shehan had indicated to Sally that the brief of evidence he's required to prepare for the coroner may take longer than the usual three months.
He told me that the normal recommendation for a brief of evidence is three months, but you can request an extension, and that he said to me, clut out, I will one hundred percent be asking for that, as I need the time to.
Compile it, Dear Sally.
This is how Anne explained it in an email.
The coroner's decision on whether an inquest will be held is made after the coroner has gone through the brief of evidence and determined that the person is deceased. So yes, this could be six months if it takes that long for the police to file the brief of evidence with the coroner. The inquest would then be held. To determine the date place cause and manner of death kind regards Anne.
Just to clarify, an inquest is a court hearing conducted by a coroner to gather information about the cause and circumstances of a death or presume death if a person has been missing for more than seven years. They are only held in certain cases, for example, if the death occurs in suspicious or unusual circumstances, or if the cause of death is unknown. Anne Lambino posted a booklet detailing the coronial process for missing persons to Sally and explained.
State coroner Teresa O'Sullivan has carriage of your mother's case and she will determine if an inquest will be held after receipt of the police brief. I assume you would like a copy of the brief of evidence, so I have marked the file accordingly. If an inquest is held, a copy of the brief will be sent to you well before the inquest.
New Eyes.
When Sally met with Anne in Sydney, she found out some unexpected information. While Gary Shehan is still working on the case, he is no longer working alone. In fact, there's a new officer in charge, a.
Person who don't wish to be identified, who is working in the UNFELF Traumicized Squad in Sydney, who has been in touch with me and spoken to me at length and is hoping to meet up with me at some point so that I can thrown through what I know and what information i've them helps them look at as well, and looking at the information that we have in the documentation that we have and some of the things that aren't quite right, I guess they want to meet me
in person first. When I say, I don't even know who that is exactly, I don't know if there's a team of them or just one person, but they do refer to themselves as an oc SO, which is an
officer in charge. So I would hazard a guess that they potentially will take over the case because it's a whole new, new division and it sort of takes away from just being in a police station at Tweetheads by they it goes into I still don't really know, to be honest, I'm still learning about what it is and what that means for me exactly a month's case, but I'm hoping that we get to catch up sooner than later and then I can have more information.
In this episode, we once again reached out to mister Remichel in Luxembourg. Alison first spoke with his partner Marie.
Hello, I'm looking for Fernande. Please uh Tila, just looking for Fernande. If he's available, please Fernande. I know you understand. Fernande.
Is he there?
Please?
Looks six So.
Why what we do?
What do you want to.
Or seven am? Look, it's Alison Sandy. I'm from Australia. Obviously following up, we didn't want to knock on your door again, so we thought you'd prefer if we called rather than knocked on your door.
Yeah, what do you like? What do you want? What do you want us?
Oh, we just wanted to speak to finand because we had those questions, we sent him. That's all. We're just following it up. We want to rule him out so that you phone up.
To the walk to the June that we stay to the.
You don't know what to do to us, well.
We can undo it. I guess if we could speak to Finand we have talked to everybody else as part of this, he's the only one we haven't been able to talk to properly.
We have nothing to do with something.
He was never in Australia. He was never he can help you.
With the help of our sleuths, we tracked down Susie Kup, the teacher who came out from England on exchange while Marian worked at the Southport School in the nineteen nineties. The pair hit it off, and when Marian decided to embark on her overseas adventure, Susie Cooper was someone she intended to catch up with. But when Sally reached out to Susie in an effort to shake some memories loose that might help with our investigation, her husband said no.
However, we did chat with another man who understands very well the sense of loss and emptiness she'd experienced for more than twenty years. Mark Levison's twenty year old son, Matthew, was last seen leaving a Sydney nightclub in September two thousand and seven. Matthew's partner, Michael Atkins, went to trial for the murder and manslaughter of Matthew in two thousand and nine, but was found not guilty. For nine years, Atkins lied what was the turning point when they finally
started to take like? What treated the seriousness the year of the police taking car Matt's.
Second probably the find of the car that was the key. I think we went down the police station to that.
Again.
What we we we weren't told is that they had already found Matt's car. Matt's car was found on the on the Thursday morning MM and the ground staff at the Park of Settlement had located the car and as unusual said car there for all those days. So it was brought to the police and yeah, and they realized
it was the car blowing the mat. So they opened the car and found a receipt in there from Bunnings MM. When the Bunnings at uh tarran point and saw Akins walking at at twelve o'clock on the Sunday MM empty handed walking out about twelve out seven with a matic and cloth tape as per the receipt that was in the car bearing his fingerprint with thumbprint MM. And that's when it got serious. That's where which we did we weren't told. They told us Arthur is longing to be
with the detective. The first interview they said, look, we can tell you now you couldn't see before case tend to what you were saying. If I met car this morning, how long after after you did send the Sunday This is a Thursday. The Carols found that that morning on the Thursday. But initially they thought, you know, a young gay guy. That's our best guess that a young gay he's on a vender somewhere. You'll be right, that's we
first thought. How are they were approaching it not more seriously because he was gay, because he was young, because all those reasons.
So it's funny too because they've made assumptions on my mum as well, being that she was a fifty one year old woman who was married and divorced three times, so therefore she obviously wants to go missing because of those factors. And that's what when you're reading the Freedom of Information and transcripts, it's constantly brought up, Oh, this woman was fifty one. She was obviously wanting to move
on and have a new life for herself. Like, I don't understand why assumptions like that can be put into a series this matter, like a missing person's came.
It's a better detective, say, don't make assumptions. Look at the evidence with that to.
You, never assume, because it makes some ass out of you and me you know, it's it's not something that I do lightly. I like to base my things on facts.
You need to. We had the earlier police missed so many things. I mean Gary's team in the end, Yeah, they found on Matt's phone that there's already had years prior. They would go through things again. Atkins only grew matha for drugs. I ever tried drugs or ever tried jollies and I'll share, I'll look after you and coaxing and teaching.
You right right right?
How interesting?
Yeah, that's so much. It was located on the phones on the computer that was overlooked initially. If only they had like we have now iPhones well Jair tracking things on that we've been just so amazing back then of course with them other with their mobile phones there, so those things have been a gods.
And all the while the Levison family pushed for a coroner's inquest into the case.
Yes it did wears down a what But the thing is, we never even considered quitting. And that's what the authorities came to realize near the end, that she's just this time because they're not they're not going away.
But what we found was which worked well quite for a while, I get gone, drag out, hit him again and don't think out shit and rather how are your pest just right?
Okay?
Again?
And I didn't really worry about it too much because he doesn't work on Mondays.
Atkins had been the last person to see Matthew alive. He said the young man died from an accidental drug overdose, but in exchange for legal indemnity, Atkins finally provided information about the possible whereabouts of Matthew's body. He drew a map that led to extensive excavations at the Royal National Park south of Sybney.
So on this eighth afternoon where we had listened to on the crane or warrant and probably about four minutes of digging time of the tobacco's going. Why they take this set to the commercial operator. Let's pull that palm there even thinking of the pumps out the round and I saw it in the bucket of the back hours of the faith that looked nice. Now you are just joking with the immedis they called Garrio with Then we got him, We found him.
New South Wales police have located human remains following an extensive search in the Royal National Park for missing man Matthew Levison.
When they found Matt, we're just talking scullull remains, but Matt wearing a morgod she and he's Morgan, a plastic weathering the words. So they found a G the A N R, M and O. So they've word Morgan and two edged darts. So we knew was Matt straight away. How did you feel? Mixed emotions, elated and poor failure. She always had in her head that glimerous of the smaller small hopes that just maybe he's out there as good.
That confirmed across he was, and but I was just just believed that we found them, it could get out of there and bring him home. Yeah, and in the next few days it was like excavating a mummy, you know, they had paint brushes and game. That happened so carefully.
There's some parts there that are missing and we think most likely they've disturbed that in the first dig and not seeing what's what's in the soil and they were missing out al caa fema that's a solid bones that's in the first dig, and did not realize it was there, not seeing anything.
Wow, that's even crazy too. And they've got it and they didn't find femur in it.
So yeah, they had the forensic people there. They were there the whole time, but they were going through a big sieve, going huge sieve, and they were going through all the soil that they dug up and were digging up. And that's still finding more and more small bones there. How many days all that? Eight five eight, So with twenty one.
Matt's remains were found in a shallow grave beneath the cabbage palm in May twenty seventeen.
They'll now be sent away for further forensic analysis. However, police and family have waited several years for this breakthrough.
That palm is now planted in the Levison's yard and last year.
To us, one more thing is is it ever? No? Never, because some prints our will let you get back to normality. Now now there's a new normal. The old normal has gone.
For the wood now in my house talking to me about things.
That's what we thought to us. You know, we were helped by saying people through our journey, when you're trying to give back, it's therapeutic. It helps us to code. And we lost so many friends. People who don't know what to say to you. We will see what we call friends change aisles in the stupermarket what to voice. But we've gained some new friends.
Yeah, I've said that too, Like you know, out of if you're looking at the brighter side of a sad story. The amount of people I've met, like yourself and so many Allison Brian likes.
The list is huge.
Of all the people who are super close to me now, like I've got like Allison's on my speeder Vryan's constantly texting the solution that I'm working with their like my best friends now.
Episode sixteen began by looking closer at the incoming passenger card that Marian supposedly filled out herself upon leaving the United Kingdom in nineteen ninety seven. It's date stamped the second of August Brisbane Airport and includes the following details her new name, date of birth, country of residence, occupation, marital status and flight details.
We sent away copies of the passenger card and postcards written by Marion to handwriting experts to determine if there was a match.
The first expert we consulted advised this.
On an initial inspection, it appeared that the letters, etc. Are predominantly a cursive script, whilst the passenger card is upper case lettering, which cannot be compared. The small amount of uppercase printing in the letters etc. Also appears to be insufficient for a useful comparison to be conducted with the passenger card. Your sincerely, Stephen Dubadat, Forensic document Examiner.
From this, we still don't know if it was Marian. If it wasn't, who was it was she traveling alone? Could Marian have really married while in England? If so, did her new husband travel back with her? This document holds the key to so much, and presumably New South Wales Police is trying to find out the answers to
these questions too. Now they have an airline and flight number, detectives should be able to locate a flight manifest listing all the passengers, possibly including who was sitting next to Marian, and they can also potentially access the archived CCTV footage from the airport to confirm whether this was really her coming through the arrival gate.
Yeah, hello, Cliff Hobden.
Fortunately we had more lark with the second handwriting expert.
I was the former commander of the New South Wales Police Document Examination section. I've written curriculum on handwriting comparison. I've been giving evidence for about twenty years without my evidence ever being challenged on the basis of my expertise. So I made the comparison, and my opinion is, or would be for a court that the specimen writer wrote the questioned handwriting.
However, he qualified this.
All opinions that are formed by way of a subjective process have some degree of error. I mean, that's why there's the Court of Appeal for when magistrates and judges make subjective opinions. And what applies to handwriting opinions is you cannot present it to the court as one hundred percent accurate.
While it's not an exact science, Cliff is very comprehensive in his analysis.
You assess the specimen by looking not just at letter designs, but other features such as ratios, connections, the way that a person might deviate from writing their handwriting in a perfectly straight line, the size of the handwriting slope. And in addition to all that, the fact is that we all write a handwriting slightly differently according to the skill that we apply or because of the circumstances of how of the use of the particular pen or the surface, or all kinds of other things.
Sally thinks at least some of the incoming passenger card was written by her mum. Definitely not all of it. But if it was Marian, could she have made that flight and called Sally from Tunbridge Wells as she claimed in the conversation she had with her daughter on August first. Our helper in the UK, Christina, says no. Checking with a plain spot of friend, she found the schedule for Cathe Pacific flight c X one zero three, which departed
Hong Kong at eleven pm on August the first. Accounting for the transit time and the flight time from London, Marion could not have been in Tunbridge Wells when she spoke with Sally and been on that flight, raising more questions did Marian lie about what she was when she made the call?
If so, for what reason?
We know that New South Wales Police is in possession of.
This original document.
We first requested a copy of it late last year, but we're denied access under the Government Information Privacy Act or GIPPER, our freedom of information laws.
We then took legal action in July.
The matter was heard in the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal or ENCAT. We've waited months for a decision.
Then we were.
Advised one would be made by Friday, the thirteenth of December, but that did not occur, and upon inquiring again as to the reasons for the ongoing delay, the following Monday, we received this notification from the Registrar.
I refer to previous advice about when parties could expect publication of the decision. In this case, I apologize the decision was not made available on the thirteenth of December twenty nineteen as estimated. Registry will advise you as soon as the decision is available.
And more good news, our other GIPPER request has yielded results. This is the one for documents produced since November last year. Our previous request only included documents that went up to November twenty eighteen. On the third of December, the Information Privacy Commissioner or IPC ruled New South Wales Police makes a new decision.
The review of the agency's information and decision concluded that its decision is not justified. The reviewer recommends, under section ninety three of the GOPA Act that the agency make a new decision by way of internal review.
In other words, the new South Wales Police's decision not to release any documents on the basis they are connected with the active investigation into Marian's disappearance is being disputed and that partial release at least should be considered. The review also looked at the public interest in the case and found that there was no adequate explanation as to how access to the information could potentially prejudice or hinder an investigation or the enforcement of the law.
In episode sixteen, Sally and her daughter Ella took a trip to Sydney to meet up with the new police officer in charge of Marion's case. So this is the new South Wales Police headquarters. This is basically the mothership for your the investigation into your mother's death. The first time you've been here. How did the meeting go with a new officer in charge?
Really, Well, we've been here all day, so it's been a very big day. I think I've talked to the leg off the chair, but feeling extremely confident. They are very good. They're starting from scratch, they're going to look into every single thing, and we just were sort of joking about it. Then I just said to them, we're leaving no stone on turn and they're like, you vetch your So the new oice is completely dedicated to our case,
which is great news. She has her own little team as well helping us, and I'm feeling really confident that we're going to start digging deep and looking into it the way its sugar been done, you know, twenty three years ago.
So that's really good news.
Can I get a high five?
How does that sound?
Does that sounds pretty good?
I think because you've lived this your entire life, haven't you.
Yeah.
Well, I'm just glad that the podcast and everything that has finally led to something and that all of the effort hasn't been for nothing and is finally eventuated into, you know, getting this new outcome for it, which I think is great.
How proud are you of your mum for pushing it this far.
I'm very proud, very very proud.
She's worked very hard to get here.
So I think it's about time that.
It gets to stage, because yeah, she just had a plane stage thing.
Oh fantastic.
I'm so happy to hear that. I'm so thrilled.
That's fantastic.
Did you get into the detail of things like the passenger manifest for the flights in and out that you're muntok No, we.
Didn't really get into the nitty gritty of the information. I've just really touched on what I feel is important and pretty much they already had that information anyway from the phone calls that I've had, but I just put it into an easy email documentation dot point kind of situation so that they've got it. And they were just loving that because it's all, you know, in front of them. And I just said to them, you know what, this has been going on for twenty.
Three years already.
I don't want to sit here and just sit here and go, Okay, well you guys, good luck. You know, I'll let you do your thing. I want to be able to help as much as I can because I have a lot of information and I have a lot of detail that I wanted to share with them, you know, like errors in the freedom of information documentation, things like that.
So we've done all of that today, and what about things like persons of interest And I'm thinking about mister Ramichel in Luxembourg.
Was he brought up today?
He's on the list.
So they're eager to find out and look into all of the questions and the information we've uncovered about persons of interest.
I would think so based on what I've told them today, given.
The nature of a police homicide review that was done on this case and now this new officer in charge, was there any discussion about the forensic aspects of this case and testing DNA against remains that sort of thing that didn't come up today.
Not yet. They've told me. They told me that the balloon of bone was negative, which was the other day.
That was the bone from a woman found in the mid nineties in the Ballina region.
Correct, Yeah, so I specifically asked for that bone to be tested against my DNA, which threw a negative result.
But that's good.
Yeah, it is good. He ticked that box off. You know. That's what I say to people. It's not all it was about being negative. It's about me being able to say, well, this is something that needs to be investigated. Okay, let's tick it off and go right, we can move Yeah, that's right.
It sounds like this initial meeting couldn't have gone any better.
Is that the.
I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of who we've got on the team and I'm really happy that we're at that point. I think, you know, it's a really great feeling to know that, you know, not only have I got you guys, but I've got them now as well. So I've got like this team of people fighting for answers and you know, everyone working for the same goal at the end of the day.
I'm so happy to hear that sound.
It's so good.
Fingers crossed that they are and follow through on the hopes that have been generated today.
Episode sixteen also saw the start of a petition by one of Sally's online supporters, Jen Marsh, calling on the New South Wales Police to put up a cash reward for any information that may lead to Marian or finding out what happened to her. And we were pushing for another more substantial search of an area at Armadale in northern New South Wales. If you remember, the only call ever made to crime Stoppers linked to Marian's case directed
police to Armidale. However, the date of when that call was made is, like many dates in the police report, unreliable, but we do know it was not acted upon until twenty ten, when Detective Gary Sheen took over the case. The person who made that anonymous call to crime stoppers about Marian and the potential whereabouts of her body has never been found.
But by episode sixteen, we had found out much more about this pilot. He was the father of a boy in Marion's class in the mid nineteen nineties, and we discovered was eleven years younger than Marian and used to work for the airline Cathe Pacific. We also learned that there was nothing to suggest there was anything more than a mild flirtation by Marian. While she has been searching so long for the mother she lost. As a result of this podcast, there is something Sally has gained. Her
relationship with her dad Stewart has strengthened. She caught up with him on her recent trip to Sydney. Of their original family unit of four, there were only the two of them left, and they're making the most of it.
Initially I didn't get too involved. I just thought it, let it go along. But now it is having an impact on me because it's impacting Sally, and it's frustrating because you think, Okay, how.
Does it feel being part of something that millions of people now following, How has it affected you?
Look?
I just hoped that I can help Sally, and that's what people said, Well, why are you going to let Channel seven interview and said, because I'm supporting my daughter.
In his initial interview for this podcast, Stewart was angry, and his comments about Marian drew a lot of criticism.
There is still.
Anger there, especially when he remembers things like his daughter's wedding.
I was in the wedding car and Sally was looking around every tree to see if her mother was there. And I get upset thinking about that.
That wedding day, I mean marrying, had organized the chapel at TSS for christ and Sally to marry in. Why was it so upsetting seeing your daughter looking around?
Well, she's looking for a mother and she was really really believed that her mother was hiding her. And when she didn't turn up, it was like it must have gutted her. That affected me.
How did it feel seeing your daughter have to go through that on the biggest day of her life.
I was upsetting.
He was upsetting, but his anger is mellowing as he learns more about how much his daughter Sally has suffered over the past twenty three years and the trials she has.
Endured quite stressed, Like Dad has been quite stressed about me doing this, and he gets upset and he cries to me on the phone a lot. And you know, I think in that heat of that moment, he focused on what was driving his upset, I think, rather than thinking about the positive sides. Because he's told me many times about what a great relationship you have with Mum, and I've quite often said to him, I think they were too similar.
Do you miss Marian now? Still in a way?
I look, I look at photographs and I think, you know, there's a photograph of her standing at the front door at ligand the Macquarie Road, taught your friend and I can remember that like it was yesterday. The last time I saw Marion was at Sally's engagement party with Allen was with me. She took Owen to see his grandparents up at Colownbra.
Yeah that photo, that lovely photo, will be all together.
And yeah that was that was it?
And did you get on with Marion's parents, Jackie?
Oh excellent.
Matter of fact, I've got Christmas cards from Colleen just read like until she died and calling the Stuart Browner Squire and she'd put really nice notes in there, and she actually when I was up there? When was that? I was up there and there but all the girls, the sisters were there, and Colleen pulled her to one side and she said, do you know where Marian is? I said, I don't know. She told me she really missed her.
If Marian did know that Owen had taken his own life, how would that have affected her?
Do you think I'd say that would have destroyed her?
It was Marian prone to going down and making large cash withdrawals? Was she very savvy and financially.
I'd never experienced that.
What about in terms of her knowledge of international travel and identification documents? Was she a master schemer? Because, to believe the police version, she was an elaborate schemer.
I I don't believe that.
Why don't you believe that?
Just the way Marian was. Marian was a bit hair brand in a lot of ways, but she wasn't.
She wasn't a schemer. Do you think she could have pulled off what the police station had?
Absolutely not.
So what does that then mean? Where does that leave us?
There's a link somewhere, and we've got to find that link.
It's been a while since our last road trip, so I head off south of Wollongong, three hours drive from Sydney to the tiny town of Jambourou. More specifically, it's iconic pub, The Watering Hole there is run by family members of Marion's first husband, Johnny Warren, Australia's soccarou Great, our first ever World Cup football captain, and there's plenty of memorabilia on display in the pub. Johnny's family have been great supporters of Sally's. Like her, they want to
know what happened to his first wife. Sally and her daughter Ella came along too, and we caught up with Johnny's brother Ross, his nephew Jamie, and Johnny's former best mate John Economus.
Can I Gang, h.
Could I Ross?
It's December second, twenty nineteen. We've been doing this for more than a year now, Sally, more than a year. Jamie, When did you first hear about the lady vanishes?
Oh?
Gee, it must have been a twelve months or so ago. Now. We were contacted by Allison and Allison explained what was what the situation was, and we said, yes, we're just so happy to be able to help and whatever we can do to help, we.
Will What did you make of it when you heard what we were doing.
It was an incredible, incredible thing that you're doing. For somebody to be wondering for all these years, you know, where's my mum?
What's happened to my mum?
It was just a fantastic thing that you're doing. And for me to put myself in Sally's position and the family's position, it was just incredible that you're doing something on this scale to be able to find out what's actually happened.
Here we are reunited with the family of the man your mum was married to.
First.
Yeah, Jamie, can you tell Sally and Marion's granddaughter Ella what Johnny was like?
What do you remember Johnny?
Yeah?
Well, growing up, he was always somebody that I looked up to. He was a massive hero of mine. But he was just he was a lovely, lovely guy. He was very friendly, he was very interested in what you were doing.
He was very humble.
Obviously he was he was a soccer superstar, and it's somebody that's that I wanted to be like Uncle John. But he was somebody that you could just meet and within five minutes of meeting him, it'd be like you'd
known him your whole life. I've witnessed that on many occasions throughout his life, observing him, that he'd run into somebody or that they'd say, oh goody, you're Johnny Warren, aren't you, And they'd start talking and you know, within a few minutes it was like they were long lost friend. So he was just a lovely man and and somebody who you know, we all respected and looked up to greatly, and he was highly He was just such a valuable part of our family and a very special man.
Yeah.
My mum always spoke very highly of John and loved him very much. So he's always Yeah, every time I met him, it was, you know, it was just like he was a top blow.
So John, when you knew Marian, she didn't have any kids. Her and John didn't have any kids. Do you know if they were trying to have kids?
Yeah, yeah, they were whenever he was in Australia because he was touring all the time.
Yeah.
Well he had two marriages, you know, soccer and marrying.
Which one did he love the most?
Hard to separate them?
And was that something that you felt or can you tell me if that was something that really ended up becoming the main obstacle that those torn loyalties between his career, which was going game busters and his love.
For Marian, which you told us was very genuine.
Well, he was captain of his club, captain of New South Wales, captain of Australia. He had a lot on a lot on overseas strips. Yeah, yeah, it was a significant fact.
Did you think when they got married that they'd go the distance, that they'd stay together.
I'm the one that brought them together, you know, I'm the culprit. I'm the guilty one.
John.
How much do you miss your mate? How much do you miss John?
Too much?
Even now?
Yep, it's only fifteen years.
Any next question, you're very passionate about it. I love that he would love you for that.
Yeah, he would.
And it's nice to have matshit like that.
So okay, And that's the last time we got to speak with John Economus. He died in October twenty twenty one. In episode six, we also spoke with Australian journalist and businesswoman Itita Buttrose, who presented Marian with the Teacher of the Year award in nineteen ninety six. Just a matter of months before Marian disappeared. Remarkably, Eita kept a copy of the very speech she wrote for that ceremony.
It's amazing, isn't it.
I am said the function and I spoke at it. I've kept all the speeches I've given over the years, so I made one on file. And when I looked back, I thought, my word, teachers had it tough. Yeah, you had to me had a lot of resilience when your teacher then you probably still do. But yes, said your mother was a teacher at that time.
Ita is a legend in Australian publishing and journalism, a household name immortalized in pop songs. She has received numerous honors, including Australian of the Year, and was herself a pioneering single mother who rose to become of the Woman's weekly magazine.
Imagine Marion Barter receiving her Teacher's Excellence Award at the Hilton Hotel ballroom in front of hundreds of officials and colleagues listening to Eide bart Rose make this remarkable speech about the profession she loved and had devoted her life.
To ladies and gentlemen. Everyone has their down moments. I know I do. When I need a little inspiration, I turned to some paragraphs that one of my first editors gave me. They have stood the test of time, and they go like this. Last rewards appear at the end and not the beginning of the journey. There is no way I can foresee how many steps it will take me to reach my goal. I will perhaps meet failure at the southern step, and yet success will be there
hidden behind the last bend in the road. I will never know how close I am to it. If I don't turn the corner, I will always take one more step. If this doesn't work, I will take another, and then another. One step at a time is not so very difficult. I will persevere until our succeed.
Words from that speech so many years ago now seem applicable for Sally Leyden's journey today.
By episode seventeen, the long wait after our end cat hearing had finally yielded results. We'd acted on Sally's behalf at the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal trying to get access to documents about Marion in the police investigation file, which had been heavily redacted when we applied for them through freedom of information laws. While we didn't get everything we'd hoped for, we did get some new information.
I've been trawling through, and thanks to the released documents, we now have a much more descriptive case file, which reveals in part the extent of the investigation and clears up some of the past anomalies which we've been trying to grapple with. What they show are four periods of
activity on the case. Firstly in nineteen ninety seven when Sally initially reported Marion missing, then in two thousand and seven when Sally went back to the police because ten more years had gone by and there was still nothing from her mother. It was at this time Marion was finally referred to the Missing Persons Unit the MPU and
put on the new South Wales Missing Persons Register. More activity in two thousand and nine, and then again in twenty eleven, when significant pressure was placed back on Byron Bay Detectives to clear the matter up. It's important to note that the police file is also riddled with errors, and not just minor typos. For this catch up episode, we're not going into all the details of what we discovered as a result of the ENCAT decision. If you want to revisit, just replay episode seventeen.
We also spoke with forensic linguist Associate Professor Georgina Hetton to determine whether there was anything we were missing in Marion's final correspondence to family and friends. Perhaps there was something more in those postcards and letters that we weren't seeing.
I was asked to look at whether or not these letters that Marion produced might have been influenced in some way. So the question for me was, were there some ways in which I could identify in the language some indications
that Marian was writing under the influence of somebody else. So, in terms of the kind of thing that we do in linguistics, we would need some kind of method to analyze the language of the letters and to identify whether there's some difference between the structure and the use of language in that letter that was written, particularly the long letter that was written in nineteen ninety seven from England, whether there's a difference between that and the earlier texts
that were provided, which was mainly a text from a birthday card. So it's usually we're looking at things that the person writing the letter would not really be conscious of when they're writing. It's quite easy to manipulate your vocabulary, but it's much harder to manipulate something like the grammatical structures of your sentences. Most people are not really conscious
of that when they're writing. So those are the kinds of things that we're usually analyzing, and there are some systems for analyzing that kind of thing, but I've got to say it's not very robust. You know, we have a lot of difficulty in finding something like the equivalent of DNA or a fingerprint in people's writing. And I guess the other thing about authorship is if we think about Marion's letters, I mean, we're not saying that she didn't write them. We're saying that she might have written
them under somebody else's influence. We're not suggesting that somebody else wrote the nineteen ninety seven letter. You know, there's no doubt that she wrote it.
However, forensic linguistics is not an exact science.
The other thing that might have been useful would be something like some of the tools that we have for light detection. If we don't have a method that can distinguish between the linguistic features of the text, like I talked about, a sort of got medical features based on authorship, you know, is there something else that we've apply to the analysis to identify a shift between the writing in the earlier text the birthday card, and the writing in
the nineteen ninety seven text. So, for example, if Marian was talking about her plans for her travel over the coming months and the fact that she might be staying in England, but we know that really she was intending to come back to Australia almost immediately afterwards, then there's something not matching there. What she knows is going to happen, which is coming back to Australia, and what she's talking about happening, which is going traveling in Europe and so on,
they don't match up. So in one way we could say, well, perhaps there's the falsehood there. Of course, there's a few holes in that argument. One is, if she came back to Australia as we believe she did, she might not have knowned that was going to happen. She might have been writing that letter in nineteen ninety seven with no malicious desire to miss lead the reader.
The analysis is further frustrated by the type of meaningful correspondence available from Marion at the time. If she kept a diary or something that allowed her to write in any depth, more educated conclusions could be drawn about her situation at the time.
One thing that I did find, I guess interesting at a qualitative level was that the text does show there's a bit of evidence about a sense of trepidation about the trip to Europe, and I don't think it takes it really a linguist or even a forensic linguist to identify this. She says, I'm staying for several days to have a good look and explore and a bit of
a rest before tackling Europe. You know, there's some it's that kind of odd way to talk about something that she would oessensibly be really excited about, you know, tackling Europe. Then again, you know, maybe she's just a little bit more concerned about traveling in a foreign environment. You know, home counties England there's pretty safe, whereas traveling to continental Europe might have been a little bit more threatening for her for just fairly innocuous reasons, not to do with
anyone that she was concerned about. She'd also been expressing all of these worries about having too much luggage and maybe that was weighing heavily on her mind, if you'll excuse the pun by the.
Sound of it.
Also, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that there was anyone influencing her writing per se, But we can see that her behavior or at least what she's feeling and everything is consistent in the two years separating those that correspondence. By looks of it, it doesn't seem out of the ordinary, that you know, with the way that she writes.
Several months elapsed between the release of episode seventeen and eighteen, as we were in a holding pattern while we waited to hear whether an inquest would be held. The police were provided another two month extension to complique there brief of evidence. And the COVID nineteen pandemic had engulfed the world and many cities and countries were in lockdown.
But our super Sliss Journey was still making discoveries. She managed to acquire a copy of Marion's outgoing passenger card, the one that was filled out the day Marion first left Australia for her trip overseas. Here's what we learned back then. This card also came via an application to the National Archives of Australia. It is dated twenty second of June nineteen ninety seven. Her name is written as Florabella Natalia Marion remical under current marital status. The box
divorced has been ticked. More interestingly, she's completed the section for a resident who plans to depart Australia permanently. It says she's been in Australia for fifty two years, even though she was three and a bit months shy of her fifty second birthday. And where does it say she was moving to? Luxembourg spelled incorrectly as lux ian Berg
after the word Europe has been crossed out. As for where she planned to disembark, she'd written England, but it's also crossed out and replaced with S Korea meaning South Korea. Presumably both lots of crossing out were done by a customs officer, as Luxembourg and South Korea appear to be in the same handwriting and it's not consistent with Marion's.
Without overreaching, we can conclude it was Marian on both the flight leaving Australia at the end of June nineteen ninety seven and returning at the beginning of August nineteen ninety seven. It was premeditated. Marian had planned in advance to go to Luxembourg to live. It was not a snap decision made during her trip. Marian did not plan to return to Australia, and when she did five weeks later,
it was only supposed to be temporary. You may recall from earlier episodes that Marian's passport never left Australia again, and as far as we know, it's never been located. The last postcard we have from Marian was dated July seventh and it was sent from Hastings. There was another postcard Sally received from London, but she can't make out the postage stamp and whether it reads July fourth or fourteenth, regardless, it leaves about three weeks before Marion apparently headed back
to Australia via Hong Kong. So what did she do in that time?
For those of you who don't know the UK very well, if you trace her steps all the way down to Brighton where we finished following where she'd had been, there's actually the tunnel just up at Hastings there and we do have a postcard from Hastings and the tunnel is where you go across to Europe. So I've had plenty of people tell us you can go in that tunnel without actually hating to go through customs or any border
security or anything like that. So it would have been very simple for her to jump across to Luxembourg and go and do what she supposedly said she was doing and getting married and living in Luxembourg. But that makes no sense to me that she'd be in Hong Kong flying back from Hong Kong two and a half weeks later. We know that she definitely went back to London because I have date stamp from there, but there's no definitive
in that two and a half weeks. We don't know where she went, or what she was doing, or who she was with.
For Sally, the discovery of the outgoing passenger card is bittersweet.
I was showing my daughter and she instantly said, so she wanted to go missing. She deliberately wanted to go missing because she said that she's leaving permanently to go and live in Luxembourg and changed her name. I said to her, that's an interesting instant take on your feelings looking at that, because it's my belief that the Nissoplast police particularly have looked at that document and instantly gone, oh, well, she deliberately wanted to go missing.
You know.
Even Brian said, you know, oh, she lied to you, and I said, well, she didn't lie to me really, because she did say to me when she was leaving that she had her shipping container that she put all her belongings into. And she had said to me quite clearly, if I decided to stay overseas and teach, I will get you to send over the shipping container to me. So there was always that thought process in the back of my mind that she potentially could be moving over
there permanently. And we didn't have a problem with that. I mean, I was already established, Owe was established, and you know we didn't. It wasn't like we were at school and needed our mum. She was an older lady and you know, self sufficient to do whatever she wanted to do in life, and we had to be accepting
of that. In my opinion, you know, I would if I said to her I was going to leave over and go and live overseas, I'd hate for her to sit there and make me feel bad about not wanting to go and fulfill my dream, so there's no right for me to do the same thing to her just because she's my mum. So there was always a take on that she might not come back, that she might stay there. But at the same time, I didn't know Luxembourg was in the picture. I had no idea about that.
I had no idea that she had changed her name. And we've done some more research on the name as well. And if you actually are married in Luxembourg, the law states that you keep your maiden name. So she had married a ramchurl over in Luxembourg and had gone over as Marian Barter, she would have still been Barter when she was over there after she got married. So we sort of worked that out after looking and researching the laws in Luxembourg, and thought maybe it was the case
that she wanted to change her name. She wanted to be associated with her partner, her new partner, so therefore she changed her name before she left. But what doesn't make any sense to me at all is the fact that she took all her luggage with her. You hear Leslie saying one of her best friends who put her on the bus and was the last known person to see her. How much luggage she had and how they
were laughing about how much luggage she had. She writes in her postcards and her letters to us about how stupid it was for her to take so much luggage, and how she had store luggage at Heathrow Airport and she couldn't fit it in the car that she'd hired to travel around Sussex area and Kent while she was
exploring the UK. So to me, it doesn't make any sense that someone would take all of that luggage with them and then come back within five weeks after you've just ticked that you're permanently leaving and you're not coming back and you're living in Luxembourg. And it also doesn't make any sense to me that she went on a Korean Air flight, which is this is all new information for us that we were able to get through Geeper
and then through confirmed on the outgoing card. So she flew out on a Korean Air flight on the twenty second of June nine to ninety seven. She then had to get off in Korea. She then had to get on another flight, which we're not familiar with because once the understanding that I have and I've been told with Interpol is that they only keep records for your bound flight and your incoming flight. Anything happens outside of that realm falls under Interpol, and they only hold their records
for seven years. So it's unlikely that we will know what dates she left Japan to go to the UK and how she got to Hong Kong, because that is all a bit of a mystery for us, unless Interpol miraculously have that information, which I'm sure that oh I see will be all over. But it is interesting to me that my mum wasn't short of money, so I don't understand. And in my conversations with Korean Air, I
rang them and asked them the question. I had the flight number, and he said that's still a current flight number today. It's been operating for a long time, over twenty years. And he said it's a really popular option for people to get to Japan because they bounce over to South Korea and then they get on a different flight and it's only an hour transit to Japan from there.
But for the fact that she had so much luggage and she would have had to pull all that off the flight, go through baggage, go through customs, get onto a different flight wasn't like a connecting flight, so that would have been a real struggle for her. I would have thought so to go to Japan for a couple
of days and then go back into the UK. And the reason we know she was in Japan is because you might remember, I have a letter that's on the hotel notepad and an envelope from the hotel from where she was staying in Japan in Narita, So I kind of wonder about that sort of thing as well, Like is at her leaving little stones for us to track her and go I was here, I was here, This is where I was. I went to Sally's Craft in Alfreston and we were able to go there. We went
to the cat shop in Brighton. So it's like she's left a little trail for us and we've done heaps of work in trying to work all of that out as well and work out where she was and what dates she's from the postcards that we have. Lucky that I've kept some, you know, sad that others haven't kept theirs, because that would have been amazing information to have.
In episode nineteen, we could finally reveal the news we've all been hoping for Here's how we announced it. It's happening more than twenty three years since she hopped on a plane for the trip of a lifetime and vanished.
More than half a lifetime since daughter Sally last heard her mother's voice on the phone.
We are pleased and relieved to announce that a coronial inquiry slash inquest will be held into the nineteen ninety seven disappearance of Marion Barter. On August sixth, twenty twenty, the New South Wales Crown Solicitor's Office sent the following email to Sally Laden.
Dear miss Leyden in Quest into the disappearance of Marian Barter, also known as Florabella Remacle. I'm writing to advise you that the State Coroner has confirmed that an inquest into the disappearance of your mother Marian will be held, and that the State Coroner will preside over the hearing. At this stage, I anticipate that the hearing will take place in the second half of twenty twenty one. However, no formal listing arrangements have yet been made. I also confirm
that this information may be made public. I understand that you would like a copy of the brief evidence as soon as possible, and every effort will be made to make this available to you at the earliest opportunity. Yours, faithfully, Sarah Nija, Solicitor the Crown Solicitor.
For Sally. The announcement of an inquest is validation for never giving up on her Mum.
I've been told a few times, and we've spoken about that a few times, that it is going to inquest. But for me, in my heart, I wasn't satisfied until I got it in writing that the coroner was going to take it to in quest.
It is also a bittersweet.
I feel like it's a double edged swords. I don't know anybody that I've met who's happy or excited about going to in quest into the death of their loved one or potential murder.
However, knowing an inquest is now definite does strengthen her resolve.
This is my chance that someone is actually recognizing that my mum is actually missing. And when you've been dealing with what I've been dealing with, I've had Mum's family who have told me relentlessly that she's not missing and just leave it alone and let it lie. And you know, she wanted to start her own life. I've had the police and the detectives tell me she changed her name. She wanted to go missing. You know, she's missing on her own account. Yet no one can find her, and
no one can verify any of their claims. You know, only three years ago, I was pretty much knocking my head against the wall, thinking this is ridiculous. I actually don't know what to do because no one was taking me seriously and no one was listening to me. When I was saying that she's a missing person. I was just getting doors shut in my face constantly, and everyone was putting it in the two hard basket.
She's hoping this will bring me answers she's been seeking for so long, not just for herself but her family.
I feel if we go to a coronial in quest and they do everything in their power to try and find the answers and they still can't do that, I can rest myself and go I've done everything I possibly could have done to find her.
In episode nineteen, we shared the news of the inquest with lots of Sally supporters, including the Levison family. Think I wanted to let you know that we finally have the inquest.
I can't express my delight how happy in police Land for Sally and the family that they achieved. That that's been a tremendous acknowledgment of all the work they're put in and what it would mean now that the inquest unlike a court trial, the inquest is inquisitorial and not adversarial like a trial. And the big distinction is that the inquest is a fact on the exercise. The coroner is now tasked. We're finding if there was a death,
the manner and cause of death. And important as well is that the in the South Wales the Evidence Act doesn't apply, which means that unlike in the criminal trial, I'll use that as an example. You know, we lost a good quarter the time with the things arguing what evidence would bemitted to be heard of the jury and what wouldn't and that wastes so much time to list here with everything, it's open sight everything.
We also informed Rebecca CONTs, who used to work on missing persons cases with the Australian Federal Police.
Hey, there's one thing I didn't tell the other day because I wanted to let you know I am recording now, so I wanted to get your action without you already knowing. But we have a bit of good news. I don't know whether sales told you yet.
But I has been that on the back of my neck. Tell me you found it.
Oh God, I wish, I wish, but it's not that good it is, but it is still really good news. We are getting an inquest.
Oh well, that's the next best thing.
Okay, awesome New South Wales.
Or Queensland in New South Wales.
Yeah, okay, good.
There are so many outcomes well, things that have come out of inquests. There's been further investigations and everything. So it's a very exciting time. And as someone who's been a big supporter right from the very beginning back, you know, I'm sure as you know that everything will be laid out to bear.
Absolutely, and I can tell you now I've shared the posts as far and wise as I can every time there's been a new episode released and things like that, and I've seen the interest in the podcast and the amount of people that have logged on and had looked at and heard it grow expidentially, I've had people coming out of the woodworks that have heard me on it, that know me from previous lives and it's blown me away how far it's reached all across the world. So it's great.
Great And thirteen years after being removed as the face of Missing Persons Week, Sally Layden was invited to front the campaign for Missing Person's Week in Australia in twenty twenty.
I look when I got the phone call to say that Sally was or her mother's case was the highlighted profile for Missing Persons Week this year for twenty twenty. I nobody was more elated about it than me because it was well over due by at.
At least ten years, thirteen years, thirteen years. Two thousand and seven was your one, wasn't it?
So twenty twenty it.
Was unfortunately for me not be with the AFP and actually being away from Camber myself. I would have done easy to have been there just to morally support her. But I was so glad that I knew it and they were send her a message of support. Our profiles when I say out the Austrangeentil Police campaigns reached a massive audience now with social media, and you know that's profile of Marian and the information around her case will go far and wide across the world as well as
just domestically here in Australia. So thank goodness, although thirteen years too late, it was great to still get that folk.
It's on the cave.
Eight four hundred and forty two days ago, and this time she got to have her say on behalf of all of the families searching for missing loved ones. This is part of the speech.
The thirty eight thousand individuals that are reported missing to police on Australia each year, there are only twenty six one hundred that remain who are regarded as long term missing, meaning longer than three months. A smaller number falls into yet another category, which is that of plus fifteen years missing without a trace. These cases make up more than sixty percent of the current long term registered missing persons here in Australia. Many people tell me how they pray
and hope that I will one day have closure. Closure to those of us in the missing world is not always our reality. Rather, it's best described as ambiguous loss, a loss that occurs without closure or clear understanding. This is the kind of loss leaves a person searching for answers and thus complicates the delays the process of grieving and resulting in unre sol grief. Have you ever done a puzzle. It may have taken you days, even weeks to finish, but you get to the end and you're
missing that last piece. Frustration kicks in, then anger, before sadness or the realization that all your hard work you cannot complete your puzzle. You have failed. That is what
my life feels like. You come up with a new theory, you spend hours, days, weeks, months, even years putting the puzzle pieces together, but more often than not, you're simply left with the missing piece of that puzzle, countless hours mulling over every finer detail that could be the missing piece to what has been your biggest puzzle you've ever undertaken.
Under tight COVID nineteen restrictions. At the beginning of August, Sally and her nineteen year old daughter Ella traveled south to Canberra for the event.
Because it's quite daunting walking into a room and you've got ministers and commissioners of Police and Federal Police and Federal Plasee everywhere in uniform. But I will say that
all the people down there were absolutely beautiful. I've thanked Trish Halligan from the head of the coordination down there for inviting us to come down, and her staff like amazing, just such beautiful people, So it made us feel so welcome, and I was really quite honored to be asked to come down and be the face of long term missing persons because for me, as much as my story is what I've been telling as it's rolled on, I feel I can be a bit of a voice for other
people and if we can push harder, we will get answers. And for those people who don't have a voice, I'm trying my hardest to make that voice, not just for me, but for everybody who's in the same situation.
At the event, the Australian Federal Police Commissioner rhes Kershaw announced a three point six million dollar program to DNA test human bones in a bid to solve long term missing person's can These are bones that have been found fifteen or more years ago in various places all around Australia, but never identified bones which could possibly include Marion's. So with bones being tested and a brief of evidence coming her way, Sally feels like she is finally making solid progress.
She's even sent a letter.
To the new South Wales Police Minister seeking a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of her mother.
When I first met you, if you'd ask me what my end goal was, it would have been to get to a coronial in quest and have the best of the best looking at it and researching it and investigating it properly.
Someone out there knows something that's going to be able to finish every missing person's case. It doesn't matter how much time goes by or what happens. I want out there somewhere in those the key piece of information that set in to Silvy for these cases.
And that brings our catch up series to a conclusion. From episode twenty we began our Inquest coverage, which is very in depth. Episodes twenty to twenty five covered the first two weeks of Inquest in June July twenty twenty one. To be honest, a lot of the evidence from these early sessions we already knew, and a lot of the
witnesses we'd already spoken to. However, there was the announcement of a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward the information leading to a conviction over Marian's disappearance and six months later, that reward sum was doubled.
And then the inquest was set down for an extra week in February twenty twenty two, which became two weeks, and then even more days were added in April, and that's when things really got interesting and all of the dots started connecting.
Police had tracked down a man named Rick Blum, a man who lived in northern New South Wales, not too far from where Marion lived on the Gold Coast.
A man originally from Belgium who'd previously lived in Luxembourg and southern England.
A man with more than thirty one aliases, including the nand Remarkale, who he knew of when he lived in Luxembourg. In fact, he'd had a relationship with mister Remarkle's former wife, Manique Cornelius.
A man who admitted placing a lonely heartsad in the French Lucurier, Australian newspaper in nineteen ninety four by a man seeking a woman for a long term relationship or marriage.
A man who had a history of charming other women with access to large sums of money, A man who promised them a new life in Europe, and even took one to England, only to leave her behind, a man.
Who admits to having a relationship with Marion Barter in the weeks before she suddenly decided to quit her job, sell her house, and take a trip overseas.
The evidence from this Rick Blum and the other witnesses connected with him is compelling and incredible and far too detailed to sum up here. Episodes twenty six and beyond will reveal exactly what the police have discovered.
And it won't be long before we're back. We're counting the days until the inquest findings are handed down. If you knew Marion or have any information about her or her whereabouts, we'd love to hear from you. Our website is sevennews dot com that au forward slash news Forward slash the Lady Vanishers, and you can also message us here or anonymously at the Lady Vanishers dot org.
If you like what you're hearing.
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Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Brian Seymour, Producer and writer Sally Eels, Sound design Mark Wright transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins and Alie Sinclair. Graphics Jason Blandford. This is a seven News production.