The Catch-Up - 5

This is the Lady Vanisher's catch up episode number five. Hello and welcome back. I'm Alison Sandy and.

I'm Brian Seymour. This time we look back on episodes twelve to fourteen. There was quite a bit of waiting for us during this period as things slowly started to move forward in this case. While it seemed to take forever at the time, there were some significant milestones along the way.

One of those was when Marion Barter was finally placed on the missing person's list. Here we stepped back to episode twelve.

A police review of the investigation into the whereabouts of a Queensland teacher has determined that information will be forwarded to the coroner and the case reinstated as a missing person case. Despite exhaustive inquiries in Australia and over sees, detectives from the tweed Byron Police District have been unable to determine her whereabouts. As part of the review, it was recommended Miss Bartby reinstated on the National Register owing to the unique circumstances of this case.

Needless to say, we're pretty thrilled.

I'm yeah, I'm quite elated. You know, I have a tear in my eye, and it's yeah, it's a big sigh of relief, you know, like it's just something that I have been fighting for by myself for a very long time, I feel, and you know, it's it's a very sad story, and it's in a very intriguing story, which most of our listeners on the podcast have I've also said, but my hair is standing on my head

Although just to clarify, Marian is not being reinstated on the National Register as she was never put on it. She was only ever on the New South Wales Missing Persons list from two thousand and seven to two thousand and eleven. She will now be on the Australian Federal Police Missing Persons Register. In addition, New South Wales Police are confirming they have never located Marian and they are

One of our biggest endeavors has been helping Sally Leyden take her mother Marion's case to ENCAT, the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal. ENCAT is the place where ordinary people can go to sort out disputes on just about everything from tendency issues to building works. In Sally's instance, she's seeking access to documents pertaining to Marion in the

Hearing was set down for one day June twenty fourth.

We are now a record in proceedings Leyden, the Commissioner plus Police Force.

We have an audio recording of parts of the hearing and will be playing some of its. Remember we are seeking access to the police file. It's up to the Commissioner of Police responsible for denying us that access to prove that was the correct and preferable decision. After some general housekeeping, the hearing begins.

The applicant is Miss Sally Leyden, miss Layden's mother. He's a lady by the name of Marion Barter and Miss Barta was reported missing to the New South Wales Police on the twenty second of October nineteen ninety seven and she's never been found. The New South Wales Police Force conducted an investigation into Miss Barta's disappearance and that investigation

During the course of the hearing, Marian is referred to as a person of interest or POI. Also you'll hear talk of cops events cops. COPS stands for the Computerized Operational Policing System. It's the system used by New South Wales Police officers to record jobs on the internal police database. Our and Sally's lawyer, rico Ynjaichik goes on to outline the story of Marian's disappearance and explains what is known of the police investigation into the case.

Thanks to Sally's application for a coronial inquest, New South Wales Police are taking some action. In an email dated the fourteenth of July, a New South Wales Police media spokeswoman wrote.

This, Hi, Alison Detective Senior Constable Sheian will soon meet with senior investigators from the Homicide Squad to conduct a case review. This is a routine review to determine future direction of an investigation, but I am told for this case the Homicide Squad will discuss their recommendations with the coroner as her honor has expressed interest. I've been assured that we will be advised of the outcome so we can update you when it's appropriate to do so.

Then four days later, on July nineteen, we receive the following statement from Police.

New South Wales detectives have reviewed the police case looking into the unexplained disappearance of a Queensland teacher. Marion Barter was aged fifty one years old when she was reported missing by her daughter living at Byron Bay in nineteen ninety seven. Detectives from the Tweed Byron Police District have explored numerous leads in the case, including Marion's activities overseas

So the police have sought advice from the coroner, which is good news for Sally because if this leads to a coronial inquest, all of the evidence must be laid out on the table.

This investigation has established that part of the problem for Sally is that her mum's disappearance did not receive the attention it deserved early on, including Graham Childs, the police officer who took the initial statement from Sally Leyden at the Byron Bay Police station on October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven, and marked the incident as an occurrence. He's now retired and when we visited his house he was away, so we left a poster of Marion in his letterbox.

Several days later, Sally and I managed to reach by phone. Hi Graham, Alison Sandy from the Seven network.

How are you well? Thanks, that's good.

I'm joined here by Sally. Hi Graham, Hi, you would have seen the poster we left. We came to visit you last week.

Ah, it's all coming into place now, told us.

After the initial report to police, nothing was noted in Marion's case file for ten years. It was two thousand and seven before Marion was placed on the New South Wales Missing person register, and that was only after Sally had contacted the Australian Federal Police. The lack of action has been almost as baffling as Marion's disappearance itself. We hoped Senior Constable Graham Childs would be able to provide some clarity.

I'm not sure if you remember. I know that Gary Sheen had told me that he had spoken to you back a long time ago, like twenty eleven, and asked you if you had the recollection of the case of my mum being a missing person, and he had said to me that you didn't have.

Thanks to Sally's election of it.

But I wanted to call you and talk to you, or come to you and see you and just say hi and just see if we could get a bit more information. Now that you're retired from the.

Police force, I've got to be really, really honest with you. When Gary Shan Rangy. I had just the vaguest of recollections. I can imagine twenty six years in the police force, and I've been out for sixteen, so it is a long time ago, and a lot of water has passed under the bridge and sent more. I'm more than happy to give you any information. It's not like I'm hiding secrets that I We're more than happy to give you anything. This only came up with me again a month or

But I.

Don't really I vaguely remember you coming into the station, and I vaguely remember that I think we contacted the Federal police or someone in relation to it. But really that's about all I've got. I know that's really terrible, and I'm really sorry I'm not able to give you any more, but I really can't remember.

I know it's a long time ago, and I obviously gas gathered too that there was a lot of things, but that obviously happened after that with you working there, and obviously trying to remember every particular person coming in is difficult.

Were you responsible for those sorts of cases or were they referred to. I mean, what was the process for.

What would normally happen when someone comes into report someone missing. Look, a lot of people talk about that thing. Oh I've got to be missing for twenty four hours. No, no, that's not actually the case it's about for me anyway. It certainly haven't dealt with a lot of missing persons that normally we would know the general duty follow would just be at the counter, would take the report back.

Detectives in those sorts of cases, unless there was suspicious circumstances. Would you put it as a missing person case or an occurrence? Because I think Sally said at the initial stages it was just listed as an occurrence.

Yeah, Well, all of those things were what we used. We used to go put on the occurrence pad, so anything that happened was an occurrence and that was just recorded as an occurrence and then determined from there. The duty case officer would have come in, had to look at all the things, the occurrences that had happened, and any cases would have been allocated to detectives or whatever

So she left Australia on the twenty third of June, and she'd been in contact with me up until the first of August yep, and then I came in to see you in the October.

So it was an't answer for quite some time, so well August.

To October, so two months she hadn't been spoken to.

Yeah, and in the scheme of things that would have been a long time. I would have imagined you would have told me at the time then that there was a long time between phone calls.

Sally tries to jog Graham's memory by recalling the circumstances that led her to go to police in Byron Bay and questions how he made the conclusions he did in his report, particularly in related to money drained from her mother's bank account.

I'm just trying to work out how how I got that information? You have got that information? Would you have gone like So's people are questioning this Graham and saying, well, maybe it was a local like it's a country town. Maybe he just walked in and knew the bank manager and he asked the bank manager for information. Or would you have had to go through a process through Commonwealth Bank to get that information?

And I'm guessing, and this is pure speculation, that it would have just been a phone call to the local bank. Okay, it would have been a phone call and they would have pulled up the records and had a look. And that's why it would have been quite Whether it be right or wrong, it would just be Ab'll just bring them Dave down at the bank.

So just to clarify, and the Currence entry is basically to report an incident with no investigation required. That means any missing person's report would have been done in retrospect, and that only happened a decade later.

I'm guessing by the fact that it's written off as occurrence only, so that to me that would have meant no further investigation at this stage, that there was the mum's come back into the country, or that whatever's happened, there's no suspicious circumstances. We're just recording it as an occurrence. So I'm guessing that that wouldn't have been a sign to anyone who would have been no further investigation From me, Well.

I can't see anything like there's on the freedom of information and documentation. It's got your that statement and then it jumps to two thousand and seven, so there's nothing in between that would.

Be right because it's an occurrence only.

I really appreciate your time, like it means a lot that you've actually talking to me, because you've been a key person in my mind. I mean, obviously Gary's been working with me extensively on this for quite some time, but you know, pretty much since twenty eleven. He's kind of said to me, they've suspended the case, closed the case, and his hands are tired and he can't do anything more. He has indicated to me that there's more to it than meets the eye, but that his hands are tied.

I would love to be able to say I remember talking to the mother and being able to pass that information, and I can't tell you anymore because you didn't want to have none of This is actually a very very sketchy sort of memory of it, and I don't know why it's not that. All I can say is that there's so many things you do in so many years, it just didn't stand out.

So would it be normal behavior if you are normal practice, If you ring me and tell me that you'd located her, would you have written that on the file?

Yeah? I'd like to think I would have, but I may not have. And that's not to say that I didn't, but I mean I don't remember it. I can't imagine, and I'm sorry this is awsommation because I can't imagine what you're going through, so that I would imagine I would be the only one that would do that, to be honest, I mean, and you're right, I am a good guy and I was a un a decorated policeman, you know, so I thought ex policeman. So I took

Well, I don't know if that was the case. I mean, I guess do you remember actually ringing somebody or speaking to.

Somebody that No, And that might seem really hard to believe that. You can't think that I wouldn't remember that. But I mean, through the twenty six years, if I was shot out, stabbed, or was bitten by people with aids, a lot of those things at the forefront of my mind. And please, there's no disrespect in this at all becau. It's one person coming into the station making report of a person that I've recorded as an occurrence only, So

We appreciate like from your point of view. I mean, there's only so much. Remember it was a long time ago. It was twenty two years and you know it was in the whole scheme of things in a place like Byron Bay. I mean you've seen it grow from. I mean back then it was probably still a bit more of a sleepy, sleepy town, was it.

Well, when I went to Borron, but there was sixteen police here and we used to close the door at eleven o'clock at night and go home. There was no police in Barron after eleven o'clock at night, so you know, very different. Now this is about sixty five or seventy odd police there and very different, very different town, you know. So I mean we used to come in and open

Some fantastic news we can tell you about. The new South Wales Police is establishing a new properly resourced missing persons unit. One month after the Lady Vanishers debuted, it was announced they were disbanding the old unit, which had failed to properly investigate dozens of long term missing persons cases. Now they have announced Project Aleathea to form a new unit of seven detectives and four analysts, along with state of the art technology to properly handle cases like Marion Barter's.

Dear Sally, thank you for your email.

She received an email response from Registrar and Lambino the next day.

New Southals Police have advised they are preparing a report to the State Coroner for her decision on whether she will take jurisdiction in regards to the suspected death of your mother, Marion Barter. I understand this report is almost complete and we'll be far with the State Coroner soon, although an exact date has not been given. When the State Coroner receives the report from police, to accept jurisdiction,

It generally takes up to five business days form the state coroner to make and advise of her decision. We're not sure how long we'll have to wait, but we're confident we will have a decision from the state Coroner's office soon.

This investigation is like unpicking a tangled web. So many bits of seemingly unrelated information that need to be pulled apart and pieced back together to make sense, and all of it is a bit mixed up with misinformation, typos or sloppy note taking in official documents, or comments from people who can't quite remember that throw us the wrong

We've made a couple of trips to northern New South Wales for this podcast, and in recent weeks we've been back to Byron Bay again, Alison, Sally and I all drove down from Brisbane. There is someone we've been looking for in Byron Bay, someone who we thought may remember seeing Marion Goody good looking for Brian, Alison, I'm Sally Brian.

Do you remember me walking and showing you a photo?

I remember you.

Do you remember her well when when Bill first said it to me to look at it a way?

Maybe you know what I mean?

So what happened?

Brian Cox worked at the Commonwealth Bank in Byron Bay in nineteen ninety seven. We found him with the help of a man named Bill Peters, who was the commercial manager at the same time. Brian was at the branch when five thousand dollars was withdrawn every day from Marion's account over three and a half weeks, and he would probably have been there on the day two months later when Sally came in with her mother's photo looking for her.

Let me give you a recap of what happened back then.

See if that rings any girls, because I walked in with that photo or something similar and walked up to the counter and guy serves me there was nobody else in there that was in the old offender. And I walked in and I said, I do have six CTV footage on the ATM and my mum's supposed to be in the UK, and I've just abound about five thousand dollars in comout here count every day.

For three and a half weeks from the Bay branch.

And the guy who I was talking to took the photo of his hand sugar and sent him a little back when what I've seen. The manager's office came out to the photocopy of the photo and all come up to me and my partners appoted a lot because I see her I don't remember that. I'm just saying I feel like the person who did it would have been would have remembered that happening.

That's not a normal thing happened, I guess to day.

And so what would you what would you think.

You were a supervisor there, someone came in every day taking it five thousand dollars would not flagged or.

Personally, I think if it was me, someone's taking five thousand dollars out every day. Yeah, started asking the question five thousands a lot more money than correct.

So we've done the equation.

That's okay, half for today.

Yeah, you did definitely start asking questions, okay, and so get that sort of money every day.

Remember this, who would have have been recorded to the opposite visor?

You know who that was?

Jeff Smart?

Jeff Smart?

Is he still boat?

I found out today that he passed.

I didn't know that, yeah today, Okay.

I haven't seen.

Jeff since.

Nine Okay, okay, Jeff Smart. It doesn't ring a bell like I kind of. It was weird for me because it was like the person took to be then close the door behind them at the very back where I was standing at the counter, and the door being parallel to me and I probably mid center of the.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the old offices.

Yeah, so you remember what I'm saying, and there was a photocop.

If I'm looking at the back, there was a photocopy over there.

Yeah, okay, So what's the process like when that happens back? Then do you have to go in and do the door?

SIPs of five thousand dollars.

Wouldn't have been done through an agen.

No, when that's what the guy said, the counter too, and so would be and the ATP would have been like maybe four hundred dollars lucky, yeah, maybe less than that.

Yes, and so yeah, okay, and it's five thousand dollars for a reason that would be about but you take out daily pass with that sort of like.

Flags or something.

What was your floats back in those days? Do you remember, Brian, how much money did you have cash in the bank? Did you have withdrawals? We would have had a bit there, ten grand, twenty grand, fifteen.

In the cashtra ourself we would have had probably up in.

A thousand all right, okay, it's quite a bit.

But in the lock, the way and the safe we could have had anything because we have the beach hotel or all that bacon back then and everything was done manually, right.

We used to count the cash in the back safe and.

That was where it stayed, so you could have it with drawers.

Yeah, And would that have been if someone coming said I want to take five thousand dollars out?

Do they have to fill out a form?

I mean you have to see the idea, what's the process and.

Had to be performed with an identification, so every.

Single day and photo ID. Do you need a particular standard?

I would have been a card and then if they had a card kin like she could have just done it with her key, card and a pin.

I'm not sure they could have done card and in back then, I'm not sure.

So these days you walk in for your card and.

Hit the pin and put the key there.

Yeah, I think you've.

Put it back there.

So can I ask you another question? Because the lady rang me the other day and she said all the notes had have those numbers on them, and that the banks keep records for records of the bank note number so that when they when someone comes and gets them, and then they look at it against what that money has been using it. So if someone went and brought a car, for example, one money, they look at the numbers on their notes to trace them back. You guys

That I remember that a flag, even though it was a long time ago.

I serged you too, so well, something someone did it. Someone did it. That's what the police have called us.

But you reckon if you reckon, you would.

Have remembered it.

I mean that I remember.

Yeah, so Jeff Smarts no longer. Is there anyone else you can remember who might have been aware of something like that.

He was definitely a guy, and he was definitely I'd say he was taller than you, like from a memory, like, I think he was kind of off a bit tour the counter.

Talking to me, Brian, and I get that a lot.

Yeah, but you know, like I'm just saying, like I think from memory he had dark hair. Do you remember any guys working there other than I mean, Phil Peters told me he was a commercial manager and he doesn't have any recollection of it either.

And I I mean, I'm not.

I'm not a daisy cake. I don't expect people to remember certain things. But I really believe that the guy who took the photo out of my hand remembered, like he said, oh, that rings them out so even. And that was in October the money came out and going dark here.

Yeah, coming to face like that name, you don't recognize marriage for that photo would have looked like when I first looked at it, Yeah, that's roughly what you would have looked like on the left back then, it.

Doesn't lead the name doesn't.

Since that correspondence with the Commonwealth Bank, there has been a major development. We found out some significant new information. We now understand that Marion actually held accounts with the former Colonial State Bank, not the Commonwealth Bank. It was a financial organization which merged with the Commonwealth Bank in June two thousand, three years after Marion's disappearance.

We've learned that Marian's current two accounts with the Commonwealth Bank were inherited after it took over the Colonial State Bank in two thousand. Of those, only one had money in it. That raises the question that perhaps Marion or someone using her name instead visited the Colonial State Bank branch, not the Commonwealth Bank at Byron Bay, to withdraw five thousand dollars a day because there was no affiliation between

So what does all of this tell us? For a start, it would explain the reference to the Colonial State Bank in a nineteen ninety eight letter to Marion's father Jack in his initial dealings with the Salvation Army Missing Person Service. It would also explain why staff at the Byron Bay Commonwealth Bank can't remember someone draining five thousand dollars a day from an account there over three and a half

Actually a different bank for used to be up there.

Oh, I did it.

Essentially because it was flat so when you walked in, the counter was right there.

She knew exactly where the former Commonwealth Bank was situated and even the layout. In nineteen ninety seven, there was a Colonial State Bank branch in Byron Bay. The address was fifty six Johnson Street. That's where the current Commonwealth Bank branch stands today, which makes perfect sense since the Commonwealth Bank took over the Colonial State Bank. Interestingly, there was also a Colone Annual State Bank branch at Burley

In recent days, Sally and I have been back to the Gold Coast too, not far from where Marion used to live, to try to find someone we've repeatedly tried to contact by phone without success.

Hi Great from the maintenance department at Southport School.

This time we thought we'd try in person, and at last luck was on our side, although the audio quality isn't great. Greg Edwards, the groundsman from the Southport School who had been seeing Marion before her disappearance, and he was just as Sally remembered him. He's now sixty four. He's been working at the school for twenty eight years. Greg can't remember when he and Marion started dating.

Okay, so easier question.

Before she left, how long had you been not dating?

Oh, it was always it was stopping. And then she was your friendly again. And then she she wanted to go to a win him. That's intriguing and Bay, I must have been out of thought. That's interesting Byron Bay, you know, or something like that.

Was by something like that she invited that said said okay, So she.

Said, oh well, we may forget about and that's okay because she was getting very dramatic about a teacher's not doing what she wanted to do in this or something.

But he remembers when things started to fizzle. You guys weren't that serious by the sound of it.

Well, not not in the finish, because all the drama about ways of teaching, because it was brought in somebody in you who who was higher above her over here and at the prep school, and she didn't like that and that's just too much grammar. Yeah, I don't think the rama.

Yeah, but you were together probably about a year.

Maybe more than that, I think, Yeah, we went Quay, Norfolk. Yeah, it was probably more than that.

Yeah, but you never got in touch with her again after she up and broke up.

After we broke up, I must must have missed. I didn't mint sort, not that I was angry or anything awkward, so I just sort of kept away. And she saw me one day, I'm going out to England for a while, and I say, okay. She said, you've been trying to avoid me. I don't know, but I was, but yeah, And that's the And then the next I heard was she said to me one day, oh have you heard from Marian No? No, nod nowhere has And I just

Was talking that was that, Yeah, Gary, okay, he said, I won't.

Get a stakement off your day. I'll come back and see you, okay. Anyway, he rang me one day and said, oh, I'm coming up there this weekend and we're waiting to give Oh. No, worries, I said, but I'm doing a Comcada challenge. I was working on the Comcada challenge, so you know, if you work out a time, and he said, I don't worry about it, so I'll catch up with him. And that was I was like, that was it. He never Actually I was quite willing to give him a stake,

He recalled to me later, how I missat was the beginning of the end of their relationship.

I was just hanging out some decorative dishes on the wall for her and I broke one of them. She got, she got, oh you know, she was upset, but not not sort of ridicut gulous, the angry. Well, yeah, she was upset about it. So I went on that China Finders, and so I think I think we sort of started drifting. Yeah, not so so tired after that. Not that after that wasn't that didn't cause it. That didn't cause the business

Thing was in episode fourteen. There were more developments to report. First up a visit by the New South Wales Police, but not Gary Shean, who has been in charge of the investigation since two thousand and nine. On Friday September six to Inspector Glenn Brown visited Sally Layden's Brisbane home to take possession of material for DNA testing, Marion's old ballet slippers.

Thank you, Sally, You're welcome, Thank you.

No worries people.

Hi Glenn Allison, how are you very well?

So are you a new man on board or you just not necessarily you're possibly just a messenger today, but I am a new manager of the Missing Person's Registry fantasy.

I didn't know that.

Congratulations and for other reasons today, but thought I would drop in and try and move this forward.

Oh, that's wonderful. I well, thank you very much to that. And so will this be tested with all the unidentified that's great, every every the unidentified body we can get the.

Yeah, would be great.

And we're where to from here with the coroner and everything have we It's not.

Something I still need to make that very clear that this is an investigation conducted by tweet Hea.

It's not the missing Person's.

Registry at help.

So what's your role then?

I am the manager of that registry, but the role of the missing persons, Well, we might try and organize something in the future, Okay, if you're happy with that.

Yeah, I'll be happy with that. Sally spoke to Detective Inspector Brown for more than an hour.

Glenn has made the effort to come to my home and sit with me and talk with me about what's going on in the case. His purpose today was to come and get some ballet slippers that belong to my mum.

You'll be this he said, it would be against all the unidentified bodies. Now that includes a few bones that ever interesting. You can you tell us about those?

Yeah, Look, there is a particular bone that we have come across in some news articles that was found in Ballana. It was tested against Bromwen Whitfield is my understanding, who was a woman who went missing from Lennox Heads in the eighties. It has been tested against her and was proven to be negative. But I would like that bone to be tested against my mum, being that we have evidence that some activity was being used in Byron Bay and in Grafton. So Balliner is right in the middle

And lastly, any I guess new Leads or I mean I gather you passed on a lot of information to Glenn of Leads to follow up.

Well, yeah, I explained to Glenn that we have at the Lady Vanishers an anonymous tip line. I spoke about a tip that we had come in from a lady who'd written to us in German and I have shown him that document just so that he could have a reader that and an understanding of what we were receiving. He took interest in that and just sort of gave him a bit of a brief overview of how the podcast is actually assisting us with gaining publicity on the case.

And did he have any I guess, any progress reports from his point that he could tell you.

He's only been in that role for three weeks, so he's very new to the role, but he's quite excited by it and he's hoping for bigger, better things. From what I talk of what we had been a conversation to David.

The reason Marion's ballet slippers have been taken for testing is because Selling has been liaising with the newly set up New South Wales Police Missing Persons Unit to have Marion Stean included on the National Criminal Investigation DNA database known as the NCIDD. After offering up the slippers for a possible DNA sample, Sally received the following response from Detective Sergeant Rachel Lennaz on Saturday, August twenty fourth, Hi.

Sally, I hope to cover off on a few questions for you. You are not on the NCIDD database. However, I am awaiting or apply to see if you are on the NCIDDIFA database.

The NCI double D is the National Criminal Investigation DNA database, which provides all police services and forensic scientists in Australia access to DNA gathered at crime scenes and during investigations to help solve cases. One of its key functions is to allow police to match genetic profiles from two or more unsolved crime scenes, linking seemingly unrelated cases. The NCI Double D hyphen I AFA database was launched only last year.

In relation to your mother's ballet slippers, I believe you have possession of the ballet slippers. Is that correct? We would like to collect the ballet slippers to ascertain if we can retrieve a sample of your mother's DNA. Your cousin, Prue that utilized the ballet slippers. We will need to get a DNA sample from her for comparison you've indicated previously. She is happy to do this, as indicated by easy DNA. The testing may result in the destruction of the slippers.

Another new lead came when Sally and her team of online super sluthes happened across one of Marion's former colleagues, who notified us of another potential love interest to pursue. Mandy Jennings was twenty four when she went to work in Marion's classroom at the Southport School.

I was hired as a teacher's aide in April of nineteen ninety five, and I'm not really sure what happened with the previous TA, because a TA is always assisting a teacher. I believe in the in the reception because it's full on with four and five year old boys't imagine.

I know they're adorable.

And so I answered an ad April ninety five and Luke Glover was my interview me and he was really, really nice.

I really liked him.

And one of the requirements of the job was to be able to play the piano, and I could play the piano, dear. I was so excited because I thought, how can you imagine getting a job where I can actually play the piano and help out and then him play with boys in the classroom.

And so when did you meet Marian?

What are your first impressions.

She was really friendly, she was like everyone's described her. She was like this Laura Ashley lady and you know, ninety five. So and she was classy and she was a great teacher. And I just was blown by because I'm American, I'm not going to and I'd only been in Australia for two and a half years, not even quite two and a half years, and so this is sort of my first experience being in an Australian school.

It was a big learning curve from me, very different from anything that I grew up with. Absolutely.

Mandy only worked with Marion the six or seven months before she had to quit suffering severe morning sickness.

So I was sick pretty much with all of my pregnancy.

So yeah, and it was so sad because you know, having to at the end of the school year and leave is not really nice to do to a teacher, and Marian was not very happy about that, you know, but it's fine because we're still friends after that.

So what about her relationships with the king's father's. Did you see any of that, Yeah.

I did, well.

I mean she was really friendly with all the parents and which was great.

I did notice there was a few, well one in particular, that she seemed to really take a shine to.

And no, it's not the pilot we've been looking for, but someone else.

I remembered very clearly that he was there at the school. And I don't remember where the mother was, Like I thought she was overseas. I thought maybe Marian told me she lived overseas, But anyway, I just remember she would blush when she talked to him, and she just really liked him as a mean, as a good friend.

But maybe I.

Wondered if there was more end she always seemed to really cater to him when you would come into class, when he was a really hands on father, which was great, And maybe that's because the mom was wherever I am. Yeah, so I.

Remember I don't know how allowed to say this, but I remember he had a very feminine name for a man. It's like Marian had said it in my ear and I remembered it.

We've been trying to learn the identity of a particular dentist linked to Marian if you recall, after Marian changed her name to Florabella Natalia Marian Ramachel by Deepole shortly before her trip, she also updated her passport. To do so, she had to have her new passport photograph verified and signed by someone she knew and trusted, someone who would officially claim that the image and Florabella were one and the same person, and perhaps who wouldn't question her about it.

So think about it.

Why would you ask your dentist to do something like that?

Who knows the dentists well enough to even ask him something like that? Well, she knew him? Well, I mean, this is just me saying that. I can be completely wrong, but I think if it's a dentist, she definitely knew him.

And you know, I think.

If you're going to ask someone to help you, you're going to ask someone that no one would even think that you would be connected to.

Well, also that they wouldn't necessarily care that you're doing this, whereas next to Kim would and what questions?

I have questions. And also I think there's a period of.

Time that you have to have known them for you to do that.

And I mean I've witnessed people's passports and I know what they require quite a lot of information.

Actually, you have to know somebody for I think twelve months, yes, yeah, it has to be at least twelve months.

If you go to your normal dentist and you go, hey, I want to do a name change, and like they see you, what maybe twice a year, maybe once a year, I don't know, So it just it makes no sense if if she went to some.

Other dentist. But anyway, so yeah, so that's definitely.

Something that we need to pursue.

His name was doctor Hillary Knight, and fortunately he had no hesitation in talking to us. I'm investigating the disappearance of Marian Barter. Well, I don't know if you remember her.

Yeah, so I'm.

Familiar with I'm familiar with like the current stories that have appeared on TV. But she was my son who's now twenty nine. She was his preschool teacher.

Tsir exactly, well, speaking to a teacher, ade and she remembered you. I don't know if you remember her. That was missus Jennings, Mandy Jenny, So she was younger. And the reason why it piqued our interest because we found that you were a dentist and she had a dentist witness her name change. I don't know if you were, if you're aware of the whole story, but she changed her name in nineteen ninety seven, and we thought.

Well, yeah, so it would have been nineteen ninety five that I had anything to do with her, which was the year that my son was at school.

So when did she change your name? That's nineteen ninety.

Seven, yes, And we thought you might have been the witness on that, but it sounds like you weren't.

I don't think so. Look, I've been trying to rack my brain about Marion, and I've discussed it with my son, of course, who remembers it quite well. But I can't remember witnessing anything for her.

Yeah, because it would have been two years later. Did you only have dealings with the when she was teaching bo She.

Was a pretty social sort of teacher like. She organized a few dinners with parents and tea parties for the boys, of an afternoon. So she's very memorable. You know, she was a memorable teacher. And I've just been racking my brain if she ever asked me to witness something for her, would it had been like a passport application or something like that.

I suppose that would have had to have been witnessed.

Well, we haven't got the document. All we know is it was a dentist, so we thought it might have been new but maybe it was a different dentist. I mean, you obviously had a good relationship with her because she recalled you fondly.

Yeah.

So yeah, apart from that, I can't help you know, doctor.

Knight recalls Marion being unlike any other teacher he came across.

Oh great, Yeah, yeah, a little bit eccentric in what way? Well, for instance, having tea parties for the boys of an afternoon quite probably an just to look it out of the ordinary.

Yeah, but you know, she was very.

Dedicated and yeah, she was good son as a preschool teacher, very engaged.

Yeah, and bo remember so Finnly as well obviously.

Yeah.

I discussed it with him recently when something came on the TV just recently about the story, and we mentioned it and yeah, he said he thinks that Marion was one of his favorite teachers.

Wow.

Great, Yeah, isn't that nice? Isn't that you know, to be able to remember.

Back that far twenty five years ago? Like, I've got a hard job pulling memories back from that long ago.

You know, a few things sort of stick in my head.

I think you'd remember if you were.

I think so, I think so. But I think to get that document. Is there any chance of getting the document who actually did signers?

We're trying, and you know at this stage there might be an inquest, so we'll definitely get it then. Oh, I mean, I don't know if you knew the other pair, it's very well. But there was also one of the boys there whose father was a pilot as potentially someone that was a love interest for Marian. Do you remember any pilots and the parents.

No, I don't think it was any in those might have been a year after him.

Yeah, it must have been, but you wouldn't. Yeah, you probably only know the way. She was only there three years from ninety four to ninety seven, so Bo was there in ninety five. But there's anything else that jogs your memory or anything, And if it's okay. Also, if Bo would like to speak to us, you know, for the podcast at this aspect, just getting you know, the

Pieces and different pieces. Yeah, and with you, it's.

Great to get that clarification that it's very very well, it's obviously not you that was the witness because you would remember. And also if you only had really dealings with her in ninety five, it didn't happen until ninety seven.

So unless Yeah, and I've just been trying to think, I can't remember specifically, and I would remember, like if she'd ask me to sign a document, you would.

And I believe police may have even spoken to the dentist.

So right, right, you're the first person who's contact with me. And I haven't really spoken to any of the other parents at this stage because they don't have.

Anything to do with them from that, you know, that long ago.

You know, the only person I've really spoken to is though, you know, my son.

Also, we've finally been able to speak with Leslie Loveday. She was the former neighbor who Marian lived with in her final weeks on the Gold Coast before going overseas.

Marian was beautiful, do you know. She had never come over home unless she had a bunch of flowers and my mum was sick. She'd go in and sit on the bed and talk to her in there, and she'd always bring, like mom, a bunch of flowers. Not best friend, she had a couple of other best friends, but we were very friendly. So she was very good to me when my mom passed away. Yeah, and we got quite close.

But Marian had leased a house next to Leslie at Ashmore before buying her home at Marinda Court in Southport. When she was preparing to sell up, she moved to Leslie's home. Sometimes when Marian was at work, Leslie would go to a friend's Southport house to pack crockery into boxes for her. It was an enjoyable and convenient setup, and Leslie was not one to pry.

I'm not a person that delves into people's of fears and lives. Marian went her own way at home and I did my thing. We only met up at breakfast and dinner.

There was one night though, that Leslie found unusual.

She was staying at home with me. She said she was going over to stay at Sally's. But I said, fine, okay, I'll see you when you come back home. So that night Sally rang me and said could she speak to her mum to Marian, and I said, I'm sorry, Sally, Marian's staying at your place and she said, no, she's not here either, So where she went I don't know.

So where was Marion that night? And why did she lie about her whereabouts? Leslie never asked because it was none of her business.

Unless people tell me things. I never asked because I think your own life, it's your own privacy. You don't delving and say oh, what did you do this, or why did you go there? Or I thought she'd tell me if she wanted to. Well, she mustn't have wanted to.

So Marian had other nights out too, but these ones were to say goodbye.

And she come home from the parents' night out and she was just so proud because the parents were so proud of her. They give her like beautiful things that she took with and she said, they said such lovely things about us.

So while most of Marion's things were sold or put into storage, some things were left behind with Leslie, the sheets and donna from her bed, a desk and hall stand, which were collected by Sally, her brother Owen, and father Stewart. And Marian gifted Leslie with an ornamental porcelain chicken.

She said to me, you take that home because I want you to have that to remember me by.

The Marian spoke of her intention to ride the Orange Express and visit England to meet up with an exchange teacher whom she'd met in Australia, with the hope of finding work herself. Leslie has clear memories of the day she took Marion to the bus station so she could catch a ride to Brisbane Airport.

Oh was here, shout forward. It was the old it's where the worker's carb is. It used to be a bus stop.

They struggled with Marion's mouth of luggage.

Probably four ports and a couple of bays, because I can still see it. We're standing there. We were so early. We were just so early for the bus, and I said, you can't do anything because we got all this luggage we have to look after. And I think that when we put it on the bus, the driver looked this much just to oak it off. It was going to Brisbane, I know that, and we were laughing about it when she got on the bus, and that's what I remember last is her face at the window.

Leslie received a postcard of Marion's travels and presumed her friend was having a wonderful time.

The only time I got suspicious when when Sally rang and she said, Leslie, have you heard anything from mum? And I said no, and she said, well, I haven't heard from her. The last time I spoke to her was like and I haven't heard anything since.

In episode fourteen, we reported on an anonymous tip we received from someone who claimed to have had a relationship with a man calling himself for nand remarkable. We call our web slute. Joni found a personal ad in a French Australian newspaper in nineteen ninety four seeking a woman for marriage, listing a post office box and phone number not far from where Marion lived at the time.

We found only one f Remachel in the world who was the same age as the author of that personal ad. He also matches the self description in the ad. He is a former professional footballer and he is from Luxembourg. Marion's new name was Florabella Natalia Marion, Remachel Marion or Florabella or someone else filled out a passenger card returning to Australia after disappearing, listing her occupation as home duties, Luxembourg.

Anyway, this tipster claimed to know mister Remarkl. Whether it was a real one or an impostor we still don't know.

I was still very young bernamet fa Nando Marco in a professional context. It came from a wealthy family that financially supported him. Shortly after our first meeting he became a couple.

The tipster does not give a name, but includes information suggesting she did know Fernandre Michel. She also writes in German we are being careful not to reveal too much in animation to keep her identity secret.

I was an adviser on issues.

All this I believed because I had succumbed to his charm and his worldly lifestyle. I assert and experienced it myself that he has used his charm and his worldly behavior, his psychological knowledge optimally for the manipulation of other people. I could not believe I wasn't a man who had just used me to achieve his intended career goal.

It would be great if that anonymous tipster from three years ago could get in touch. They may have some valuable insights.

And that brings us to the end of catch up episode number five. Stay tuned for more.

If he knew Marian or have any information about her or her whereabouts. With love to hear from you, our website is sevennews dot com dot a you forward slash the Lady Vanishers and you can also message us here and if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series. It helps new listeners

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