Welcome back to the Lady Vanishers the catch up series, Episode two. I'm Alison Sandy.
And I'm Brian Seymour. By the time we reached episode four, people were starting to take notice. We'd amassed more than one million listeners and many were sending in information, ideas and potential leads.
As you'll hear from the following snippet, it was around this time that we started to encounter difficulties accessing information.
Just a quick update ahead of episode four, which scrutinizes the reasons why and how Marion vanished as there have been many developments since the start of our podcast, not the least of which is a looming legal battle involving Marion's daughter Sally and New South Wales Police over just how much information Sally is entitled to under freedom of information laws. The matter is now before the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal, with a hearing scheduled for
late June. You'll see by this episode just how conflicting the information into Marion's disappearance is, and it's becoming increasingly clear that finding the truth will come at a cost. Now onto the rest of episode four, it was a pivotal one, so we're going to replay the bulk of it.
After checking with a friend in Customs and thanks to a helpful bank employee, Sally determined that someone had returned to Australia through Sydney Airport on Marion's passport on August and for weeks afterwards, large sums of money were drained from her bank account, mostly at Byron Bay. Sally canvassed the tourist town with Marion's photo without luck. CCTV wasn't as prevalent or as sophisticated in nineteen ninety seven as
it is today. There was no security video near the Barn Bay atm or Bank branch where Marion's money was withdrawn. But years later, Stanley would recount in a twenty ten police statement her dealings with one of the bank tellers.
Showed him a photo of mum and I recall him shaking the photo and saying something like that rings the bell. He took the photo into another room to show the manager. His body language was different everyone else's. I'd showing the photo to that day, and when he came out, he took a photocopy of Mum's photo and asked me what he wanted me to tell her if he saw her. This struck me as being quite strange, and I got the impression that he knew something about mum that he wasn't prepared to tell me.
On October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven, Sally first reported her mother's disappearance to police at Byron Bay Station. The officer logged the matter as an occurrence, not as a missing person's matter, and if you look through the police files on this case, there are two dates as well as October. The date of the occurrence is also listed as August the second, nineteen ninety seven. That was the
day after Marion's last phone contact. But Sally is adamant she went to Byron Bay Police on October the twenty second, nineteen ninety seven. It wasn't long before she got a call back. The following is from Sally's twenty ten police statement.
In a matter of days, I got a phone call from Byron Bay Police. He had told me that he had located my mum and she didn't want anyone to know where she is or what she was doing. I think I asked him more about where she was and how he found her, but he told me he couldn't give me any more information because Mum had indicated she didn't want contact with anyone. I was absolutely slob aghasted and quite upset.
But unbeknownst to Sally at the time, no authority had actually seen Marion in the flesh or spoken with her face to face to verify that she had really been found, and there was no official police record of the phone call taking place. Unhappy with the way police were handling the matter, Marion's father, Jack approached the Salvation Army's Family Tracing service to try to track her down. This is an excerpt from the notes he gave them.
Some details of Marion's disappearance. Pay particular attention to the dates departed Brisbane twenty third of June nineteen ninety seven, reincreased second of August nineteen ninety seven. The last posted from Tunbridge, England was dated thirtieth of August nineteen ninety seven.
So Marion's last postcard was sent four weeks after she apparently arrived back in Australia. This had Jack raising questions.
Did she leave the card for someone else to post? Was it Marion who arrived back on the second of August nineteen ninety seven. There's been no unpleasantness in the family and the behaviour's foreign to Marian. Did Marian come back from England?
He mentioned the money that had repeatedly been taken from Marion's account and expresses disappointment with how police were handling the case.
I asked what identification had been made. They said that the bank's security had contacted Marian on the phone and had been told that she didn't want her whereabouts known. They said that the bank security were like police and they were satisfied with their identification, and that if I wanted to probe further, get a private detective and start at Barron Bay.
At the time, the Salvation Army requested a thirty dollar fee for their tracing services. On February twelve, nineteen ninety eight, Betty Brown from the Salvation Army Family Tracing Service sent a letter to Marion's father confirming his inquiry had been received.
Please be assured of our interests and concern. Your inquiry will receive our best attention. May God bless you yours, sincerely, Betty Brown.
Just five weeks later, the Salvation Army Tracing Service sent Marion's father another letter claiming his daughter had been identified with drawing money at a different bank, and that she spoke of starting a new life. The family had assumed that letter was thrown out, and for more than twenty years they based their assumptions that Marian was identified on
the contents of that missing letter, missing until now. After episode one of this podcast aired, Sally's cousin living in Japan searched his family box of records and found the letter from the Salvos to Marion's father, dated March eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight.
Dear mister Wilson, just a short note to confirm our recent phone conversation and say that I have been talking at length to police missing persons, who in turn contacted the security officer at the Colonial State Bank at Ashmore at Southport, and after lengthy conversations, were able to advise that it was definitely your daughter Marion who went in and withdrew the balance of the money at Ashmore on the fifteenth of October nineteen ninety and spoke of starting a new life.
Yes, the letter does say nineteen ninety. It is difficult to understand how that could be a typo nineteen ninety instead of nineteen ninety seven, as the number seven and zero are not next to each other on the keyboard or number pad, but if it should read October fifteen, nineteen ninety seven, this letter is saying Marian went to another bank near her old school at Southport, where she could have easily been recognized, more than two months after
her elaborate efforts to vanish, and one month after spending weeks withdrawing money from her account at the Commonwealth Bank in Byron Bay. The letter goes on.
I do hope that eventually Marian makes contact again, as it must be distressing for you to be totally out of contact with her. We are returning the photographs loan for the inquiry. May God bless you, Yours, sincerely, Betty Brown.
So had Salvation Army investigators really tracked Marion down or had they just spoken to the missing person staff who claimed they'd spoken to a bank security officer who apparently confirmed her identity without any details as to how Ultimately. At the time, that letter was enough for Marian's parents and her sister didri.
They were quite sure that it was Marion, and they were sure that it was Marian because she'd actually asked them some questions which somebody who wasn't Marian wouldn't just known. They told my father that Marian was angry at Sally because she had an agreement with Sally that Fey would sell a carbon put that money in Marian's account, and Marian was angry at Sally because she was expecting that
money to go in and it had gone in. So my father decided, well, marry would He's the only one who knew about that, so I think he was reasonably satisfy good that they hadn't actually found Marian. And she said quite openly that she wanted to start a new life. She didn't want to have anything to do with any of her present family. You know, so from police descriptions and salveish Nami, she wasn't really missing. She just didn't want to be found. She just wanted to go off
by herself and start again and start clean. And she should have a right. She's fifty two or something at the time, she had a right to do that if she wanted to hurtful it is, yes, very and it was devastating for my mum and dad, but that's what she wanted to do. What can you do? You have to accept it.
Before Marion left, Sally had agreed to sell her mother's car if she could and deposit the money into her account. She says she sold the car for seven five hundred dollars. This is from a statement to police.
In a fairly short period of time, my grandfather told me that the family tracing service had located Mum and she said something like you can tell them to stop looking for me and Byron Bay because I am far far away and tell Sally I'm angry with her for not putting money in my account for the car. I had talked to my grandfather to work out what to
do with the money. She didn't want me to put it into her account if someone else was using her account, But on the other hand, I was feeling guilty and keeping the money from her grandfather told me to keep the money for myself.
Sally also traced Marion's Medicare and private health insurance receipts, finding out which medical procedures she'd had in the months before she went overseas. There was no major health issue that she could identify, although there is one irregularity. Marion's Medicare card was used in the small New South Wales city of Grafton on the thirteenth of September nineteen ninety seven.
A police check with Medicare has confirmed this. Grafton is about one hundred and sixty kilometers southwest of Byron Bay, which is where Marion's bank account was being drained around the same time. Salie can't recall her mother having any friends or relatives in that area. Believing her mother didn't want to be found and disappointed and hurt, Sally decided
to get on with her life. On October the twenty fourth, nineteen ninety eight, she married Chris Laden at the chapel of the Southport School, Marion's old workplace, but even though her mother had helped her book the chapel before her trip, she didn't show up for her daughter's big day. On the first of July two thousand and three, Sally's grandfather, Marian's father, Jack, died. His health was failing when his daughter went overseas, and she was well aware of that,
but Marian did not attend his funeral. On July twenty and two thousand and one, Sally gave birth to her first child, Ella, Marian's first grandchild, but again there was no word from the brand new Nana. Then, on March sixth, two thousand and two, tragedy struck Sally's brother, Owen, Marion's beloved son, took his own life. Owen had his demons, He'd struggled with drugs. He was just twenty seven years old. Sally didn't know how Owen had been coping with Marion's disappearance.
It was something they didn't talk about, but suddenly Sally wanted to find her mother. In two thousand and three, Sally got back in touch with the Salvation Army's Family Tracing Service and sought help to find her mum. She's kept all of the correspondents.
April fifteen, two thousand and three, Dear missus Laden, thank you for returning your signed application form to the Family Tracing Service. We want to ensure you that every effort will be made in our search.
For three years, the Salvos carried out extensive searches in Australia and overseas. They encouraged Sally to do an interview and a story with Woman's Day magazine.
Sally's story, Where Are You Mum?
Seven years ago?
Thirty year old Sally Leyden's mother married.
February seven, two thousand and six, Dear missus Leyden.
But eventually the Salvation Army had to admit defeat and.
To indicate that unfortunately, so far, all of our searches have proved.
Negative, Marion could not be found.
In two thousand and seven, around the tenth anniversary of Marion's disappearance, Sally contacted the Australian Federal Police Missing Persons Unit. She spoke with the then team leader, Rebecca Cotts.
I was working back late one night actually, and I took a phone call and on our one eight hundred line, the free call line into the Missing Person Center, and it was Sally. And Sally introduced herself and wanted to tell me a story about her mother and who was
missing to her and her life. So we spoke for quite a few hours that night, and I think, if my recollection's correct, I probably spoke to heruntil about eight thirty that night, where she had explained the entirety of her understanding of the story of her mother's her mother's missingness, and what she had done to date, and you know,
every sort of bitten piece of her recollection. So we struck up an immediate rapport in that few hours She was very poignant, had a lot of detail around what had happened with the case, but was adamant that she didn't think enough was being done around where her mother was.
Obviously, there's so many missing cases every year and you can't look in them into the level that you did with this one. What made this one different?
I guess in my position at the time, cases that I did have the privilege of dealing with, I did tend to get very involved with because I felt that the better I knew a case, the better I could represent a family in the media, and the more I could understand what had happened. Sally was a bit different, where everything about her and her case, as far as her mother's concern, was very detailed, and she kept such great records on things. I guess she was very presentable
the case. It seemed so obvious to me, and the fact that she was able to articulate.
It very clearly made it easier for me to.
Not just want to get involved, but easier for me to see that there could be an outcome to the case.
I guess.
So when you say it was quite obvious, can you explain what your take on the case was.
From the detail that Sally was able to present.
It seemed fairly obvious to me that this was an adult going missing of their own volition, which happens very regularly, where somebody chooses to walk out on their life because there's issues in their life they don't want to face, so they can't face and things like that. So it's not illegal, obviously in Australia go missing as an adult or to walk out on your life. So I felt very early on in the piece that this may have been the case.
With her mother, Rebecca said that Marian's case will be profiled for Missing Persons Week in two thousand and seven. Sally agreed to front the media campaign, but at the very last minute she was dropped from the project.
After speaking with her.
Initially, I had gone to my coordinator at the time and sort approval to go up to Brisbane and meet with Sally because I felt that there was a really good story here and possibly something that could heighten the profile of missing persons and the issues around people wanting to walk away from their life. So I went up and I met extensively with Sally face to face, and I definitely agreed with her that there was a situation here that I felt we could really support, get behind
and raise the awareness of that. After coming back to Canberra, I then presented to the States and Territories case that I wanted to promote for Missing Persons Week, that being Marion Barter, and was advised by New South Wales Police that we couldn't follow through with that for investative reasons. Those reasons were never followed through or conveyed through to us.
What it seemed to come down to was that ten years earlier, someone claiming to be from the New South Wales Police told Sally that Marian had been located. Sally received the following email from the AFP, the Australian Federal Police.
Dear Sally, I would like to confirm the details of the discussion you and I had yesterday regarding the decision to withdraw the use of your mother's story for this year's launch. We cannot utilize the story for National Missing Persons Week two thousand and seven due to the current
sensitivity of the case. I explained yesterday that we need to respect the privacy of both yourself and your mother, given that it appears that your mum has been located by New South Wales Police, and that at those times your mum had decided not to resume contact with your family. I also wanted to acknowledge the hard work and amazing dedication you've made in trying to locate your mother over
the last ten years. I hope that the current investigation gives you the results you've been waiting for so long to achieve. I'm also hoping in the future that other media opportunities may arise that would be more suitable to your story. Please let me know if you think this is an option for you. If you require any further information of the details surrounding your mother's case, you can contact the new South Wales Police officer currently responsible for
the investigation. As always, both myself and the staff of the unit are available to you for whatever inquiries or advice you may need. Kind regards.
Sally was extremely disappointed and sent an email back to the AFP on July twenty third, two thousand and seven.
Hello, I am very sad to read your email. My family, myself, and my mum's many friends still this opportunity of hope, a great chance to locate my mum and hope to have her come home safely. I was very surprised by a phone call from one senior comfortable from Missing Persons, New South Wales on the eleventh of the seventh to hear that it is their opinion that my mother is not a missing person just because she apparently said she
didn't want to be found ten years ago. I say apparently, as the questions I was asked by the Senior Constable have led me to believe that New Southwest Police have no records of who it was who took my report at Byron Day ten years ago or who called me to advise me that my mom did not wish to be found. Due to this, I will be a requesting full documentation from New Southwals Police Missing Persons in it to show me evidence that my report was handled correctly
ten years ago. This doubt arose when I was asked several times by the Senior Constable did I remember the person who took my report or who it was who called me to say that they had found her, of which I cannot recall after ten years. The Senior Constable then said quote, I need to find out who took the report and who told you they had found her, being strange to me.
As I would have thought this would all be on record. I also found it strange to be asked again of my mother's details, of which I gave in my report ten years ago.
Incidentally, now, six months of hard planning trimarly phone calls, emails and planning around having a baby to come down to camp Or Sydney and Melbourne for the launch of Missing Persons Week, I now have been pulled from the launch to the matters within the New Southwest Police. I'll be asking the Senior Constable why this is the case. I do thank you very much for your help, Sincerely, Sally Laden.
Sally's email to the AFP was then forwarded to the New South Wales Police.
Dear, I've been asked to make sure that you have all of the information that attains to Sally Layden's case file information. I received this email on Monday, kind regards.
What followed was an email trail between the two agencies. We've acquired the correspondence through a Freedom of information application. Many names and paragraphs and the documents have been redacted, so it can be a little difficult to follow. This is what we've managed to glean. On July twenty seventh, two thousand and seven, an inspector in the New South Wales Missing Persons Unit responded to the AFP.
Thanks.
It appears as though Sally is seeking a scapegoat for this issue. I'm led to believe that only as recently as in the past months, her mother was spoken with and refused to make contact with her daughter. What was done is totally correct. I await her submission.
Then, on Friday, August tenth, two thousand and seven, the following email was sent from the AFP. It's not known to whom, as the names and email addresses have been blacked out. It may, however, be an internal email for someone else within the AFP.
Following on from receiving this email, I've phoned to try and clarify some of the information he had, as I knew it was incorrect. Some of his comments were as follows, as I have been informed by her mother was located recently again and doesn't want anything to do with her family.
The next two points have been blacked out entirely.
Then there's this, after several other completely inappropriate comments. I let know that Sally's mother had not been located recently and that maybe the information he had received around this was incorrect again.
A large section comprising several lines has been edited out before The following.
Has made many inappropriate comments to Sally, such as the New South Wales Police are trying to fix what the AFP can't do. Another reducted section. Then hope this helps you. Good luck with your confrontation.
So what does this all mean? Was the AFP at odds with the New South Wales Police on this case? Why and has anyone really ever located Marian? If so, who did, when and how.
With the advent of social media, Sally found a new forum. She set up a Facebook page called Missing Person Marion Barter and detailed her mother's case, appealing for anyone with information to come forward.
Missing persons Marion Barter, aged fifty one years old.
There were plenty of messages of support from former students, acquaintances and even strangers.
I'm devastated.
She was my choir drama teacher at Springwood Public. I remember her so well because she went above and beyond the call.
It was through a message posted to this Facebook site that Sally discovered Marion was not on the national Missing Person's list.
I had a lady private message man and said, I've just looked at the missing person's list and your mum's not on there. I went, what what.
Do you mean she's not on there?
Way, I went on there and sure enough, she wasn't on there.
Sally says she contacted Rebecca from the Australian Federal Police, who claims Marion was possibly never on the register.
No, so she.
Wasn't on our register to start with. So Sally was asking for her mother to both be uploaded to our national database, but also then be promoted and seek media attention to raise awareness of her missingness.
As a part of our protocol.
I then contacted New South Wales Police to seek permission to be able to do that, Like we would with any missing person's case. The AFP doesn't own those investigations nor the rights to promote them. They have to seek permission from the owning investigative team. With that, New South Wales Police came back and said, no, we couldn't promote the case. We couldn't add her to the database for reasons best known to the investigators.
Would you have liked to have been able to keep pursuing it.
Yes, I was obviously very handstrung by the fact that our team were not police officers, and we were not investigators. I just would have loved to have been part of finding those answers for Sally, as I think at the very least that's what she deserves. I did find it really frustrating when I couldn't then follow up with a lot of things, because I felt that there was answers that could have been sought from different avenues. But ultimately I think Sally just deserves to know.
Either way.
The thing is. Sally specifically had the police file changed from an occurrence as it was listed in nineteen ninety seven to a missing person case in two thousand and seven. An email we acquired through freedom of information proves this. It's dated July eleventh, two thousand and seven, and it's from an officer in the New South Wales Missing Persons Unit. All names apart from Sally's have been reducted.
It states on.
Twenty two ten, nineteen ninety seven, Sally Barta, the daughter of attended at Byron Bay Police station in regards to her mother. Police at the time created an event as an occurrence only and not as a missing person. From the sixth of the seventh, two thousand and seven, has been recorded as a missing person and is being investigated as such. Senior Constable.
Sally says her mother, Marian was on the missing person's database. The person who decided to remove Marian from the list.
Gary sheran On, Detective Senior Constable at Moron by detectives.
When was she removed from the database or delisted as missing from memory?
It was around twenty twelve and it was at my instigation. There's certain criteria for missing persons for them to be on the database, one is that they are in fact a missing person and in order for them to no longer be a missing person in that circumstance, there are two things that can occur. One they can be visually cited by police, which would then remove them from the database.
And the second one is that in all the circumstances that are known, that is, whether it be through evidence, information or a set of circumstances, it's the belief of investigators that she doesn't fit the criteria of being the definition of a missing person and that there are.
No fears held for her safety.
Now, after having done the investigation that I did, I found out about her movements coming back to Australia and her unusual behavior in what I believe is trying to remove herself from the family, but there's been nothing to suggest that she is in great fear of her safety. And I know that Sally suggests that maybe that did happen, but there is nothing to suggest that has come out
in evidence that that is actually the case. So I instigated a report to the Missing person's Unit, and the manager of the Missing persons Unit concurred with what I had to say, and as a result of that, she was brought off the database. But that doesn't mean that I haven't been doing work on this. I mean there are some things in your career that stick with you, and this is one of those cases. Sally's a lovely lady.
I've met a family, I've met a kids. If there's a chance that I could do good for Sally and try and find her mother, then that's what I'd like to do.
Over the years, there have been a number of New South Wales Police officers connected to the matter. The first Senior Constable Graham Childs, who took Sally's original report in October nineteen ninety seven at Barron Bay. Another Senior Constable, Stephen McAllister, from the Missing Persons Unit Detective Shean has looked after Marion's case since two thousand and nine.
Well, Gary, how.
Difficult has this investigation been.
It's been an unusual one in that normally jobs that I do, we have offenders, crime scenes, things like that.
This one has unique.
It's nature and that it's gone on for such a long time, and it's been very very hard to try and work out what has happened. So I know that Sally has put a heart and soul into trying to find a mother, but it's been very difficult because of the passage of time, but also it's a different sort of investigation to what I normally do, So it has been it certainly has had its challenges.
When police initially received the missing person's report here in Barren Bay, how long did they think it would take your colleagues to find out what had happened? Based on what happens with most of these cases, the vast majority people are found within days and weeks.
Yeah.
Look, the report was made a long time before I started work at Byron Bay, so I don't know what their expectation was, and it's very very hard to say, you know, I can't speak for others that went before me. In general terms with missing persons, from my experience, I can say that each one is unique.
They are all very very different.
Some are sold within a matter of hours, some are solved weeks months, Some are never solved. Some people want to be found, some people don't want to be found.
Although he's never seen her in person, Detective Sheen believes Marian is alive and has a new identity. He investigated the fact that Marian's passport had returned to Australia on August nineteen ninety seven. That's the day after she last made contact with Sally from England. That passport expired in two thousand and seven and there has never been any attempt to renew it. Detective Shean also discovered that Marian had changed her name by deed Pole before her trip overseas.
She traveled under the new name Florabella Natalia Marian Ramichel, a married housewife from Luxembourg.
Once I started looking at what Sally had told me about a mother wanting to go on a holiday to England and then basically from there not being seen or heard from again, I found out that there were things that Sally didn't know about And I'll just give you an example. When I started looking at her movements from leaving Australia, I found that prior to leaving, Marian had applied for a new passport in a different name, which
caught me by surprise. I certainly wasn't expecting anything like that, but it painted a picture of a totally different type of investigation, given that here I was with information that the family didn't know about, and it appeared to me as though it was something that was premeditated by Marian for whatever reason, and that she kept it away from her family so that they were none the wiser. They just thought that she was on a holiday to England.
As I looked a little bit deeper, I found that she had actually come back to Australia on the same passport.
So that is the passport that's in the new name.
That's Flora Bella Natalia Marion Rameckel.
That's correct, Yeah, Remichel, I think it's a pronouncement. I could be wrong.
She traveled overseas on that passport and she came back on that passport as well. The whole impetus for this job was I think Sally realizing there was some money being taken out of her mother's account down here at Baron Bay and other places as well. So once I knew that information, I started digging around a little bit further to see whether there was anything to suggest that Marion had in fact come back to Australia other than what I could find out through the passport movement and
incoming passenger cards. And I found that her Medicare card had also been used only a number of days after she had come back to Australia, and then started to dawn on me that the money that was coming out of the accounts was at a time when Marian was
back in Australia. It became more complex. It went away from the traditional missing person to a position where I believe that it was possible that Marian had deliberately done these things and decided, for whatever reason, that she no longer wanted to be associated with her former life and was possibly setting up a new life for herself. So it took on a completely different type of job once I got into it.
Florabella Natalia Marion Ramachel, Marian's new name Sally was stunned.
I'm looking at a.
Police report here, Sally from the fifth of May two thousand and eleven, an officer nasis He ran Chris and told him he had some news about Marian, that she changed her name prior to leaving on her holiday, and that it appears as though it was designed to assist her in disappearing.
What did you make of that?
I first I heard of that was what actually happened. Was the detective Gary Sheen ran Chris and said, I've got some information, but I want to actually come and see you guys to tell you, rather than tell you at the home. So he came to our house and he brought with him a piece of paper that had some information on it that he suggested we kind of have a little graze over while he went to the bathroom.
On that piece of paper it had my mum's passport details and it had a name change on there to some random name Flora Bella, Natalia Marion Ramachel and my mum didn't have a middle name, so she was just flat out Marian and I thought that was quite odd.
And the documentation also said that she was living in Luxembourg, status married and occupation was home duties and that she was coming to Australia for three days However, police have confirmed to me that Customs told them that the passport never left the country again, which is baffling to me.
A little bit.
So who is this Flora no idea.
I've never heard of the name Flora Bella in my life. I have no idea what that is about or who that's about.
Other family members and friends were just as shocked when they heard about the name change. As a result of information about Marion's name change and the return of her passport to Australia, the New South Wales Missing Person Unit determined that Marian could no longer be regarded as a
missing person. The case status was changed to located in October twenty eleven and suggested that Sally was informed two months later in December twenty and eleven, but Sally says she only found out something was up when she asked Rebecca Cotts from the AFP to check Marriyan in spile.
And she came back to me and said, there's something on the file. I can't tell you what it is, but I need to get authorization to show it to you. To give me a couple of days. So she came back to me a few days later and it had been authorized, and I got the documentation that had been released to me, and on that documentation it said that
they had located my mother. They located her in October twenty eleven, and that they informed me in the December of twenty eleven that she had been located, which.
Is all false.
No one informed you of that at all.
That's on an AFP document, which I find ludicrous and really hard to understand and fathom. I was never told that they located her ever. So the first thing I did was go back to Rebecca and ask her what that meant, and she said, you're probably best to go back to Gary. She and the detective and ask him. So I went back to Gary that day and said to him, can you just tell me what this is about? And he asked me to read it to him. So I read it to him and he was silent, and
he said, can you read it to me again? So I read it again and he said, I've never located your mother. I don't understand why they would say that. Let me get back to you.
Were you've initially excited, exhilarated even to see the words we've located Marion Barter.
No, I was confused. Because I'd always been told that they'd never found her physically at all. So I was really frustrated. I don't remember being excited at all. I was like, no, that's not right. So he rang me back a few hours later and he said they've spoken to me and they've told me to apologize because it's a typo. And I went, good, excellent, I'm glad that that's a typo. That was not funny for me. I thought that was really bizarre.
And that's a big typo.
That is a massive typo. Massive part of it was typedrong located. It's in capital letters. So anyway, he goes, they're looking into it, they're going to get back to me. So he then rang me. I had a twenty minute conversation with him on the phone, and he told me that they've explained to him that at the missing person's unit they have two boxes. They have a box here for people who are missing, and they've got a box
here for people who are found. And because the assumption is because there's a name change on her passport and because she sold her house, they deem that that is enough evidence for them to say that she's missing on her own account.
She's disappeared by choice.
There, she's not missing, so we have to say she's located. Telling me she's not located, So how can she be located, Well, we don't have another box for that.
He is detective she and again I would like to find her and then perhaps give her the opportunity to say whether or not she wants Sally to know where she is. And I think that's respecting both Sally's right to know, but also married or Floribella's right to have her own privacy. So if I could get to that stage,
that's what I'd like to happen. And even though, like I said, she's not on the database, it's still something that I will look at from time to time and try and get an ending one way or the other. Once I found out all the information and I was satisfied with my interpretation of the evidence that I had found, I actually went up to Sally's house and.
Spoke to her.
I thought at that stage that I had made it fairly clear to her that her mother didn't fit the criteria of a missing person, that I was going to take some steps to remove her from the database. Now if Sally thinks otherwise, and perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, and if that is the case, then I apologize, But it was my understanding that I had explained that to Sally and that's what was going to happen.
And what's her status currently.
It's a case that is still active because we don't close these sorts of cases. While she's not on the database, she still is a person that I think needs to be located if at all possible. So it's still an active case, but it's not a case that I'm working on constantly. When I get time, I have a look at it. And the reason for that is because there
is nothing for me to go forward with. It's very close for me to getting as far as I can through information through departments and things like that, So there's not a great deal that I can do.
But what I have done over.
The last few years is update the checks with all the government agencies to see whether the name has come up on any of the databases.
And if there hadn't.
Be, and then certainly would have been something I was talking to Sally about, but unfortunately, to this date there's been nothing.
So if Marian's not missing and she's not found, where is she there's an assumption that she's living a new life under a new identity, but how can anyone be sure? And there still remains the issue that no one has seen Marion in person since nineteen ninety seven. Sally told me when she first reported her mother missing just down the road here at Byron Bay Police Station in October nineteen ninety seven. About a week later, the sergeant or someone at the station called her and said.
We've spoken to her. She doesn't want to be found.
She says she's okay, and essentially close the case. But in the case file there's no record of that. Did you find any record of that conversation or that that indication that had happened.
No, I haven't been able to find anything.
And again it's very hard for me to comment on something that happened back in nineteen ninety seven, and I had no involvement with whatsoever.
But it's not in the file current that you haven't seen a note or an address or a record of conversation with Marian.
The first time that I realized that we well understood that Marian had come back was when I discovered it myself in two thousand and nine or twenty ten, whatever.
It was, Gary, I guess pointedly Sally would like to know, just in case it is the case she's decided to go missing. Gary, do you know where Marian is?
No, Unfortunately I don't, and you know, it would be great that I did know, because I'd like to give Sally some closure. One thing, one thing I do have to say, though, in regards to that, is that in situations like this, when people go missing and they set up new lives for themselves and it's not unknown for that to happen, I think we have to be mindful too of the privacy of that person as well. You know,
there are two sides to every story. In this particular case, I haven't been able to speak to Marian, neither has anybody, so we don't know what her circumstances are in regards to her deciding to do this.
I mentioned the phone call Sally says she got a week after reporting him I'm missing, and then the family tracing service story from my grandfather.
Have police, to your knowledge.
Ever cited or located Marian spoken with.
Her, Not that I'm aware of, certainly not. Since I've been involved in the investigation, I don't know what occurred. Prior to me getting the investigation. But there's been nothing that I've read that would suggest that.
If I had all the information you have, Gary, would I be able to find Marian.
No, I don't think so. I believe that Marian doesn't want to be found. I've done searches throughout Australia, in every state and every territory for things like drivers' licenses, birth deaths and marriages, medicare, settle link, the whole gamut of things that we normally look for for people who are missing. And I can't find a trace of Marion. That's not to say that she's not here, but I just can't find her.
And therein lies another problem. Marian's been removed from the Missing Person's List even though she has not been cited. According to Rebecca Cotts, the former team leader at the NASH norm Missy Person's Register, this should not happen.
So then what has to be the case for them to be taken off the list?
Ultimately, if the family decides they no longer want to promote. I mean some families go through the ring absolutely a torn about promoting and talking about their missing family member publicly. But typically if the person is located safe and well
or located deceased. That will bring them off. If a case goes unsolved, but there's a coronial and the coroner makes a ruling that the person there's no sign of life so issues an open finding and the person possibly deceased, it still doesn't in the case, so they still don't stop promoting it. It's only if physical evidence of the person living or dead is found.
When you say physical evidence, does that mean you actually have to see them?
They would have to be again AFP not being investigators. That would be definitely up to their state territory investigating. But they have to be on a shadow of a doubt, be happy that they've located the person safe or not.
What is without a shadow of a doubt.
They have to physically cite somebody. That's not an investigtive term. That is a generic term within the protocols of missing persons. For a missing person to be determined to be located or not, the person actually physically has to be cited or remains have to be found.
So when because obviously you ask questions when you couldn't use the case, what were the answers that you received?
So back when I asked me South Wales.
They said that they had investigative outcomes that prevented them from promoting the case.
Without surmising.
My only interpretation of that at the time is that they had located her and she had chosen not to go back to her family. But that was my opinion at the time. It was not informed through investigations.
Did you pursue answers?
I was outside of my rights to pursue answers. Not being a sworn police officer, I had no privy I guess to outcomes of an investigation.
Okay, so they didn't say to you, we've cited her. That's so that's no, no, and you couldn't find that out. No, okay, So what do you think then? Now has happened? Like, what do you what's your opinion? I guess, you know, twenty two years now, so what do you? What do you think or what are the what are the scenarios?
I guess I guess with my ongoing communications Sally, I think from her opinion and this is you know, through conversations, ongoing conversations, I guess Sally has come to terms of the fact that she may never see a mother again. Through misadventure, that something may have happened to her and she may be deceased. My opinion on the case, I think obviously there's something that's happened to Marian. She hasn't
just walked away from her life. She hasn't just walked away from everything she knows, because in conversations I've had with Sally, her mother would never do that, and she had so much to live for and loved her kids and her family. I guess somebody out there knows the truth. Somebody out there has the key to the puzzle.
Sadly, Rebecca Cottz, the woman who made those last comments, died in April this year at the age of fifty. She had been battling cancer for a number of years. Her insights and recollections have proven invaluable for this podcast and for Sally. You're not only regarded Rebecca as a friend, but was also grateful for her support and her unwavering belief that Marian did not disappear of her own accord.
And that brings to an end catch up episode number too. See you next time.
If you knew Marian or have any information about her or her whereabouts, we'd love to hear from you. Our website is sevennews dot com dot AU forward slash The Lady Vanishes, where you can also email us. Oh and if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series. It helps new listeners find us. Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and
investigative journalist Brian Seymour, producer and writer Sally Eels. Sound design Mark Wright, transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins, Graphics Jason Blandford. The theme and much of the music by Nicholas Gasparini at the Darkpiano dot com. This is a seven News production.
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