Bob Owens - Lone Duck, Breeding Ethics, and Training Methods

He gives a good intro on himself and how you can find him and if you haven't heard of him I suggest you look him up . He's a great dude friend of mine . In the industry .

We definitely have some different thoughts on training methods and we sort of work with different styles of dogs , but we also have a ton of unity on being fair to dogs , on uh , on training in some ways , on what . What makes a dog a good dog . Uh , it's a really fun conversation .

Uh , I've wanted to do this for a while and , honestly , since the podcast he did last year where there were some things said that I thought maybe he would want to clear up uh , and he did , and he did a great job of that . So this is a fun one . It was super fun to do . Very grateful to Bob .

He does have his own podcast , so super grateful to him for hopping on mine and hope you guys thoroughly enjoy the conversation .

Look , if you're out there and you're wanting to learn how to train a dog , if you have a new puppy or you have a dog that's just got a lot of potential but it's hanging out at your house highly suggest you check out Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy , where my friend , josh Parvin and I really lay out all the details on how you can become a better dog trainer .

Even if you have no idea where to start , no idea what to do next , no idea how to solve problems , we will handle all that for you . Check it out Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy online . You can Google it . You can check us out on social media . You can find us all over the place . All right , here we go . My interview with Bob Owens . Welcome to the Lab .

A Cornerstone Gundog Academy podcast focused on all things gundogs , good times and the great outdoors . I'm your host , barton Ramsey . All right , everyone , I'm here with Bob Owens . I have to make a confession .

The other day I was driving down the road in Florida when I thought to do this podcast and I just passed a Bob Evans restaurant and that's what reminded me . I said I need to do a podcast with Bob Evans and then I was like , wait , it's Bob Owens . I don't even know a Bob Evans . So that's why I texted you . Mashed potatoes was the reminder .

That's awesome . Throw some gravy on it , bud . I'm really glad to have you on the lab . I've been on your podcast . It's been a long time but it's always been a bunch of fun and we've always had fun conversations , so I was super excited to have you on .

I've got a lot of listeners on here that may have no idea who you are , so I'd love for you to just give a quick background , bob , on where you live , how long you've been into dogs and like what your sort of role with dogs and your podcast is in this world of the gundog hunting industry .

Been training dogs professionally now I think I'm going on nine or 10 years and it has always been a passion of mine to be around dogs , like the four-year-old kid doodling in school , a German shepherd and a police officer , or a beagle and a rabbit , or a Labrador and a duck .

And I got hooked on the TV show back in the day called Ducks Unlimited's Water Dog TV .

The day called Ducks Unlimited's Waterdog TV , and I don't know if you've seen it or not , but it really embodies what I stand for and that's the unspoken bond , the relationship we have with our dog , the memories we make with our dog and the friends we go and do it with .

And so I built a t-shirt and hat company called Lone Duck Outfitters the world's foremost gun dog supply company is what I thought right and it formed into Facebook and Instagram .

And then , I think 10 or 11 years ago , I got an opportunity to go and be a young dog trainer for a friend of mine in South Carolina , and I quit my day job as a salesman and went and did it and I haven't looked back since .

So train dogs , uh , compete in hunt tests and field trials as well as just train your good hunting buddy , steady singles , doubles , run blinds , do their deal . Um , we have a small breeding program , we do the podcast , we have YouTube and I'd like to share my knowledge , as well as guests like yourself .

Share their knowledge and experience and stories with people so that the folks who listen can take that information and build their dog themselves . Um , I love training dogs , but I can only train so many in a day , so let me arm other people with information and entertainment and education .

Yeah , as everybody heard my first few episodes I didn't grow up hunting at all , so it was like , you know , you get into something when you're like college age and you go really hard into it . You know you're like , oh God , I have a little bit of the resource and like , tons of time , I'm married , no kids . You know it was , it was .

But you're like , oh God , I have a little bit of the resource and tons of time . I'm married , no kids . It was a good time for me to start . So , yeah , I guess I've been training about 15 years , but you have a lot of really , really awesome , valuable experience . And I was thinking back .

The other day I was talking to Bethany telling her that we were going to do a podcast and reminded her who you were . Did we physically meet for the first time in Vegas ?

He had just come back from China visiting his suppliers for Dakota decoy political here and he had a little bit of the you know and he was he . He was like I got this thing . You know Bill I don't know if you know Bill or not . He has Dakota decoys , one of my favorite people . He's like a grand , perpetual granddad .

And Bill's like I can't get over this dang flu man . And like six months later I texted him . I was like , bro , you know what you had , don't you ? You know , go get tested for the antibodies . He was like , oh , I'm free as a bird man . I'm never getting it again , he knew .

So I think that shot that was like the last hurrah before the world shut down .

My buddy owns a bar here called the blue canoe . If you ever come down first place , we'll go . And he just basically gave the middle finger and said we're open . And they thrived . I mean crushed . I mean crushed , I mean you drive by and the whole town's completely asleep , no cars , and then their parking lot's packed , you know .

And he I think that'd be the most people now like oh no , I'm good , you're not locking anything down . I had friends whose wives were lice hauling their groceries , you know it's just yeah , god bless her , but my sister dead yeah just crazy . Yeah , I'm still now .

I see , uh , I had someone kind of checking me out at a register the other day and they were wearing a mask and and the little shield , you know , and I was like I wanted to be the guy . I don't want to be that guy , but I wanted to be like hey , you know , we we moved on .

I don't know if anybody told you , but yeah , anyway , well , I remember meeting you there . It was a super fun trip . Uh , another mutual friend of ours was there and I remember that guy had some hilarious comments when he'd had a couple drinks and basically said hey , you know , I'm , what do you say ?

Something along the lines that I really thought you were a real douchebag , but now that I've met you , you pretty all right . Yeah , yeah , yeah proceeded to lose a lot of money at blackjack . So it was , that was a great trip . I had a good time . Ah , me too me too , whatever yeah and then then it was can't go home and can't leave your home .

Uh , let me ask you a question

about that . Lead into that . You do have a small breeding operation . We've talked about having pups and I'm guessing several of the pups that you do breed come back to you for training . Do you notice any stuff during COVID ? Did anything change in that world for you , or with puppies or puppies going home or anything like that ?

Um , my knock on wood was not affected . With training dogs , like we all worried that you're going to get let go from work and no one was going to have any money and so we all kind of were like this isn't going to happen and then one dog gets picked up and another dog gets picked up because people were losing their jobs .

I luckily didn't have that predicament . From a training standpoint . We we do do obedience here as well as gun dogs and competition dogs . I noticed more poorly socialized dog than ever before . That's where I was going . Yeah , I figured that's where you're going it and I think that they're still that it's like kids .

Man , well , I don't know about your kids because you do homeschool right . My friends that are teachers have said that group that was like in elementary school that are now in like middle school , junior high are socially different , sure . So it has affected everyone . And it definitely affected the dogs .

I mean , they were nervous to be pet by strangers , they were nervous to go outside and touch stuff like just weirdos .

But we did social distance , puppy go-home day Like , hey , I'm going to put your puppy in a playpen in my yard , you're going to , I'm going to put your paperwork on the table , you're going to drop your check in this box and you're going to get your . Or I'm going to put four puppies in there , you're going to pick yours , take it . I mean crazy , right .

And then the demand . The demand was insane and we all had been kind of convinced that we might die , you know . And so I get , I get the fear at that point . But the demand for puppies was why we were telling a lot of people no , we were like hey , look , hey , you live in a condo in Chicago . A Labrador is not a good idea .

I know you're working from home . What happens if you go back to work ? You know what happens if that all this ends and anyway , the demand was wild and it was yeah , and obviously this , this podcast , is run by Cornerstone and the demand for that was insane , too Cool , we were already online and I think what happened is a lot of a lot of dudes .

I mean , in a very traditional household you had a lot of dudes that were normally going to work eight hours a day and they ended up staying at home and they were like dude , my dog is an ass .

And then my wife was like I should homeschool and our kids are super social because of the activities we do outside of school . So it just made sense for us and we we love it . But yeah , we had dogs coming back 2021 through , really just last year . That man terrified , it was like you didn't , you didn't .

I tell everyone hey , in the first hundred days , try to introduce this dog to a hundred people and 50 new places and you know new sites and sounds . And everyone I'm sure everyone asks you the same question what do you want me to teach the dog before it comes back for training , or what do you ? What should I teach the dog ? When do I start obedience ?

And I tell everyone , if you bring me a puppy who doesn't even know his name but he thinks that everything in this world is the most awesome thing Ten times over , having one that knows 50 commands but is terrified , that's right . Yeah , I couldn't agree more . It's tough .

It's tough to do that because people I mean you probably remember your first time training a dog . You know you get a smart one and you think this is the next Kobe Bryant and you're like I got to teach it everything . You know I was running a season test with an eight month old . It had no business being there . You know what I mean .

Like I didn't know anything . The dog knew very little , you know . And I look back and I'm like what , what was I doing ? You know you're in a massive sprint race .

Is it still playing ? Is it got good line manners ? Is it enjoyable to train and have around ? Cause a lot of them get test wise or high , strong or worse . And then there's that diamond in the rough . But being a dog trainer , there's that diamond in the rough . But being a dog trainer , there's a lot less diamonds , a lot less .

Those ages were far later than I think a lot of people anticipated I mean we were talking about , I mean , for my guys that train with Southern Oak , for most of them , especially guys like Wally , putting an HRCH on a dog is not a really tough task . I mean it's not easy . Don't get me wrong , I'm not downplaying the title at all .

Usually by two we can have that done . And then there's some that's like , hey , this dog just needs some maturity . I think a lot of pros are wising up and saying , hey , we're going to spend just a year just working this dog before we ever put in a test . I appreciate that . I think for the longevity of the dog it's better . The ?

So taking the time to build it properly so you're not rushing certain steps or pushing too soon during critical maturing timeframe of the process of learning how to handle a test , how to handle water decisions , how to handle multiple marks intelligently and not get frazzled .

One thing I talk about with folks , and we're talking about today with a couple guys that came and trained , was perceived pressure . I've got a really nice master dog that I I guess hindsight 2020 I probably pushed in certain aspects around water because she can do it and I feel good about her , but now she's perceiving this stuff looks really hard .

She can do it , she has all the tools in the tool belt , she understands how to handle and how to do everything . But but when you do like a big , big setup , she'll look out and be just a little bit more nervous . That's perceived perceived pressure . That's not that's not on me necessarily , other than I maybe did that too soon .

But you know , perceived pressure on a young two-year-old or 18 month old dog of like Holy cow , this is overwhelming . Yeah , man , rock their confidence for a little while and like now , I'm in bandaid mode of how do I , how do I simplify for her to get her back where she was a month ago or six weeks ago ?

Put George , is it Moody Uhody as a guy down here , and the guy I've mentioned him on the podcast , I actually talked about him when I had Kippy Kemp on here and Bill Billups is his name . He's a doctor , he's bought a few dogs for me , great guy , and he's got one of our pups doing .

He didn't do any derby stuff but she's about to start running qualls and he would always say you know , she's doing great . Every time he calls me I'm like here it is , here's the call , hey , we're washing her out , you know , I mean she's British dog , I mean she's .

I mean both parents imported , one from Ireland , one from England , and we don't breathe that they're not . And we don't breathe that they're not . We'll we'll get into a little bit of that in a minute . But genetically speaking , they're . They're not raised , they're not the . The history of that type of work is not there .

So , uh , but he , he would always say you know well , the real test is going to be the water blind . You know , and it's , it's going to be .

Does she get up there at the line and see what's in front of her and want to go , or is she going to see it and be intimidated and that perceived pressure that apparently , from what I am learning to understand , that's what , that's what gets a lot of dogs and keeps them from getting any blue ribbons is , hey , I'm they , just not .

They're going to crumble when they look and see how big a job this is . Yeah , for most people you're not ever going to be running anything that huge . Anyway , but for the , for the enthusiast , for those into it , it's , uh , it's crazy . That's a good segue . Let's talk a little bit about about genetics .

Tell me about the dogs that you breed labradors I know you do you deal with , is it pointers ? I don't remember what else . You have something else there ?

She had one that passed away at birth , then didn't have another one , and I had to go to cornell and have a emergency c-section and one didn't make it . So she only had two . Yeah , but I'll keep

a female . I love grouse and woodcock hunting . It's . It's like a vacation from even just duck hunting . Like duck hunting . Dogs is still semi a little bit of work . Work , right , feels like it . Um , and so to go to grab your gun for an hour at the end of a day and just take her for a walk in the woods is a vacation .

But I wouldn't say I'm a english cider breeder .

I love my labs , but they are , they're a job , you know it's , it's always work . So tell me a little bit about , genetically speaking , your , your Labradors and , um , just the , the lines that you've sort of gravitated toward with training .

But I breed American labs but what I hold to my standard is super friendly , outgoing , hardworking , good looking , healthy , happy dogs that have the capability to accomplish whatever is in front of them , a master hunter , qualified all age .

I've got one that I bred that's running in opens and derbies and stuff like that , but also that a puppy from that same litter could go to a family that likes to go hiking and camping and has a lake house and it'll retrieve tennis balls . So to have that good mix that we all kind of strive for when we talk about a Labrador . What makes a Labrador special ?

They're , they never meet a stranger , they love other dogs , they , you know you can stick your hand in their food bowl , you know things like that . So when I I I do have a male , but he's he's only maybe 16 , 18 months old now . So you know he's TBD on being a stud dog .

But my females all are that way , or they get moved on to another family and the males that I pick have the qualities that I just spoke about . You know they . If it's a jerk in the airing yard like any ounce of it , I don't , we just don't need it .

Um , if they're really overly dominant , I kind of don't want that because it pushes into the puppies , then most people can't handle it .

Not that I want a submissive wimp that can't handle stressors in life , but I just don't want the one that you look at and go man , that's going to be tough for somebody to handle as their first dog , and they've got a two and a four year old kid at home .

So I really love the idea of that balancing act of extreme athlete , loves their job , intelligent but also never met a stranger , loves people , other dogs and all that stuff . And obviously we do all the health testing and make sure that we're producing , to the best of our ability , a healthy animal for these people .

I know that from previous conversations and just you can I have people all the time that'll call and they'll say I've , I've got an american lab and I guess I just got lucky because it seems real British . You know what I mean . And I'm like well , you probably just had a good breeder , you probably just had somebody like you that cares .

And look , I'm not trying to say , don't get a British lab , it's obviously what we produce . But there are American breeders out there that care about the temperament of the dog outside of what it does on the line . I do think there are American breeders out there that care about the temperament of the dog outside of what it does on the line .

I do think there are a lot of guys out there that only care about what a dog does during the 10 to 15 minutes it's out of the hole in the trailer and the rest of the time it's train wreck . And you I mean , look here's , here's my thought . I'd love to hear your , your thoughts on this .

You can have a dog who has a master national plate , who has even a grand hunt , retriever champion title , especially have dogs that have hrch master hunter titles , who are really not fun to be around , and you can I would agree with you , but in what aspects , aspects .

So I would say vocally um , I would say we can get into the discussion about off switch , but just absolutely wired right , just just too much for most people . Um , dominant , you know ? Um , tough on birds , tough on birds . I think there are a lot of things that I'm not downplaying . The tests , I think the tests are good for what they do .

I just think that there are some things that they do not evaluate . I mean realistically . If you're running a , the Grand may be different , master National may be different . As far as the evaluation of line manners , but I mean the dog has to hold it together on the line for how long ? Three minutes .

you know what I mean yeah , not , you mean like from bird going down to being done and walking , I mean from walking out of the holding , blind to walking off the honor bucket and you can talk to the dog most of the time and and some tests , right , uh , you can .

So , yeah , so I mean , when you're talking about breeding dogs for people who are going to go duck hunt and they're going to sit in a pit , blind , off of a you know south carolina flooded compound , you know corn compound , and you're going to shoot ducks for 20 minutes and you're going to have a one hour lull , right , you can have that , that master hunter .

That's just absolutely wound tight . But then you may have one that's just an absolute specimen of a dog to be around . So I'm not saying , hey , the tests don't measure anything . I think they measure trainability really well . I think they measure marking ability Well , I think they measure the dog's ability to handle and those things .

But I think , as far as just general overall demeanor of a dog , you can earn a lot of titles with the dog . That's really great , and you can earn a lot of times with the dog that I personally would not even want to have around the house .

But I will also push back and say that a good judge will not pass a dog that is overly vocal , like a little whimper here and there , okay , but if it's barking at the line or healing outrageously in every series , they won't pass it . Like if it's out in creepin and every series it gets worse and worse .

They're just going to say you know , we're really sorry You're , you just didn't hit it . Um , and so I think when you get to the grand and the master national level , that stuff doesn't fly . Sure , I agree with that . I think on , I'm going to go , gonna go , I'm just gonna throw a number out there because it doesn't really matter .

But 70 of weekend tests , that stuff shouldn't fly in excess , right in excess . If it's a tiny bit here and there I would agree with what you're saying , like little things slide , but overall it shouldn't .

So I think the hunt test really should , at the end of the day , provide an understanding of a dog that's really well-trained , with a lot of effort and on its end and the owner's end or trainer's end getting to that level , yeah .

But I do get disappointed when you watch either a crack head that you wouldn't want to hunt with , you wouldn't want to train , you don't want to have around passes , and I also hate the ones that like walk to every bird and take 20 minutes to do a four minute test because it just doesn't have it and they pass to it .

That truly devalues the ribbon that I get and my client gets and what they get , and it's like there still should be some standard of that crack head . No , you need to either go back and train or that dog you know just has reached its capacity and that is what it is , and then same with the dog who's a dud . Is that master level work ?

Is that HRCH level work , where they walk and dilly , dally and p seven times on the way to get a bird and seven times on the way back because it really just doesn't feel like being there . Yet they get the title and are getting bread because they've got the title . So yeah , it's tough man . I think they it .

No system is perfect , it's's just not Right , but it's pretty good .

We've got Arden , which I'll bring up a little later in the conversation , but he's in the 500 point club with hrc . Um , we have , I mean , I think wally last year , made up 16 hrch dogs like we run them . We run more hrc and that's a really geographically . That's the reason for that there's we have more clubs . Um , we've got arden's also a master hunter .

We've got , I think , eight or nine master hunters in the kennel . Um , rio , my stud , who's here that I , he's kind of my , the one I hunt the most with I . I imported him from england with no titles and and , to be transparent , the guy I bought him from just said , hey , he's a little too hot , he's a little too much to run over here .

So I think you'll like him .

And I'm like , no , I think we all , pretty much like everyone that I know , uses treats , yes , and they may not use a clicker , but they , they use their voice and and it's , it is what it is .

And then from the other side , I think people think that , like us , cornerstone guys like take a clicker to the duck blind , like I don't my clicker's in my shop for puppies , you know what ?

She's amazing and in her career she's made up , I think , nine field trial champions in maybe 12 or 13 years , and I have one of them here . But their system , there are some things about it that that's why I keep importing dogs . People ask me why don't you just start a Southern Oak line and just keep it going ? Which Robert did that ?

Mike did that , like a lot of guys have done that , and Mike still imported . They all imported too , but they kind of started like they're like this is our line and we went on and on . And I'm not I'm not knocking it at all , you know me , I'm not knocking anyone . The evaluation is so thorough in some ways Like the time on the line .

You're on the line . For a long time I've been on trial where they walked 20 minutes and didn't shoot a bird . The dog has to heal . You're not really allowed to say anything except a quiet hey , heal . And if the dog's unruly they'll say hey , bob , put your leash on your dog . Thanks , bud . If the dog makes a noise , obviously you're out .

If you shoot and the dog creeps , you're out . But then it's a live hunt . So you shoot a bird and it sails 250 yards , they're going to send you . And if you shoot a bird and it lands 20 feet in front of you , they're going to send you . And the dog's got to be steady for both .

And so it's kind of luck of the draw , more like a spaniel trial in that way , like you know the way that the shot is going to be . You know you want a lucky shot , you want the 150 yard shot . You know it's like , uh , the shot that kind of sails a little and it's like that's going to look cool but I'm not going to fail .

Um , but then they , they don't evaluate a ton of handling you'll . One of the things that drives me crazy at British trials is you'll hear , you'll hear someone blow the whistle four times to get a good stop and oh , yeah , you know , blow it . And I'm like , eh , like that took that dog a second to get wowed up . Now it's a hundred yards out there .

But you know , and an American hunt test , you just seen that dog pop around or that had gotten a refusal , you know , and that's also a no collar thing which we can talk about that . But you know , you , you don't get as crisp of a stop in general at that distance .

So you'll see some stuff where I'm like , yeah , this is the IGL and it took three times to get that dog really wode up , you know and and . But they want you to put the dog in the area of the bird and tell it to do its job , go hunt . And I love that because for duck hunters that's a thing .

Right , if you're a duck hunter you're never like hold on , he's three feet , let me stop him and give him a little . It's like , hey , I want to see that dog dig it out of the cattails . The lacking part would be some of the trainability . Right , I've just learned for the most part with British genetics .

The stuff that's really important to me is going to be there and I can train the rest right . I can train better casting . Like they don't really do angle backs a lot . You don't see a lot of that . They kind of handle on a grid , back over , back over . I can teach a dog to do an angle back that that's a trainability thing .

Would you rather have a better blind running dog that looks because it looks sexy , right , when you get a dog , that's just boop , boop , boop , it's so sexy . Or a better , marking dog ? The answer is marking dog all the time , because you can continue throughout that dog's life of getting the blinds better . That's training . You know .

Leaving your side , that's an obedience task , right . If you do what I say , you're going to leave . If you stop when I blow the whistle , that's great . When I put my hand in a certain angle , you take that angle to the best of your ability . Like that's all training .

Yep , god-given talent is marking ability knowing where the birds are going to be and using their nose and finding it that's , that's natural ability . We can train the rest .

I told her , I said this this dog could , this dog could mark a fruit fly taking a dump at 200 yards . You know , it's just pinpoint . It's like , dude , you remember I thought it was actually 10 yards over there and you stepped on it . You know , and when you see him do the stuff that you know you can't teach , it's like , oh yeah , that's the nice stuff .

The Ferraris for me are what I I generally everyone likes . I had a dog that you probably remember . He's up by you now he's in delaware , uh , named red um he's the , the father of addison's pup we were discussing before we recorded . Uh , chevy , and he's the dog that everyone saw and wanted . I took , took him to one of those Eukanuba dock dive .

I took him to Max Prairie Wings for Wings Over the Prairie Festival and they had a dock diving thing set up and my buddies were like you should run red . Well , what's funny about those is , if you go watch them , most of those dogs are not steady , they're just throwing a dummy , they're just making them run . And I was like , can I making him run ?

And I was like can I , can I make him wait ? Because he gets real amped about a blind , you know . And they were like sure . So I was like , all right , well , I just walked out and like tossed the dummy out where he couldn't see me .

I had him sitting at the back and I walked back and lined him up and I was like go back and man , he , he won the whole thing . He jumped like 23 and a half feet . It was wild , but he was the dog that everyone saw and was like that's what I want . Yeah , that's the ferrari . And I was like , well , ferraris are cool , but you need a minivan .

You're just duck hunting . What ? seven weekends a year , and I think a lot of people think they duck on a lot more than they really do too I know this from when I tell people how much I get stuck on because it's my part of my job , right , and it is . I mean , there's a photographer there .

I really resonated when you said that duck hunting feels like work . I love shooting ducks , love it , but I'm always with my dogs and it's all . It always feels a lot like work the few times I've gone where there's not a single camera and there's just one buddy and our dogs and I'm like , oh , this is great . I never feel this .

But yeah , when I tell people like how much you duck , I was like last year , I don't know 82 days and they're like , oh , my God , you know it's it's like a mind blowing and you know they're big , big duck hunters but they hunted most . I mean I think it's cool If you hunt 20 days , you did a lot of duck hunting .

They're going to be a house pet training buddy , maybe hunt test buddy , if you like , doing that in the summertime to extend your dog season . But in the grand scheme of things , all of a sudden you're going to go out on Saturday and the old wifey says , nope , we're going to this and you're stuck going to that .

So it's hard to to hunt as much as we all want to and our dogs would want to . And so I think the Ferrari is fun to train , fun to run , if it has a mind in between its ears and can handle that kind of stuff . Um , yeah , I think to double back real quick on what you were talking about with vocal tough on birds da , da , da , da .

So because of my job I've gotten to train a ton of American labs , a ton of British labs , a ton of English labs . I'm sure volume is probably leans towards the American labs , but I've had vocal of all three . I've had tough on birds on all three . I've had ugly , you know , like not good looking out of all three .

And so I think what I wanted to hammer home on a point is reputable breeders looking at what they're producing , what they have produced , what they do with them , and making sure that that's a dog you'd want to own , not just on looks , not just on color , not just on a video of them splashing into the water , whatever it may be .

And , by the way , I'm trying to sell dogs too . So like we're both trying to sling dogs to people . But I also I've got a litter right now in my living room . That's not for everybody , right . That's not for the . The camping family that you know sits on the couch in netflix six nights a week . The other puppies they are .

But like I had to tell people no on this letter of two left . But those are dogs that need to go to someone who hunts a ton , trains a ton , hunt tests or field trials a ton and knows how to handle a dog , that's going to have some giddy up . Or else , if they may become vocal , they may become all these negative things .

I think a lot of that stuff is how they're raised personally . But then you got some tendencies that if they aren't , if they don't go unchecked , it's going to suck . Um , but I think when you do , when you buy from someone who gives a crap and we all give a crap I mean I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus . They don't care about their dogs .

But to your point , and how I care about myself and think of myself is I'm not trying to produce a dog I wouldn't want to own . I would expect that any puppy out of any litter I produce , I would pull one out of there and say this is my next hunting buddy and training buddy and competition buddy .

If I'm not producing that , then I shouldn't have bred the litter . Yeah , yeah .

Right , it was just drama , which is , it's obvious , I'm into . I'm into the wakeboard community with my son , I'm into heavy into the jujitsu community . Here there's drama everywhere you go . It's not just anything . I used to work in the church world lots of drama . Go , it's not just anything . I used to work in the church world . Lots of drama .

It's everywhere . It's a human , sadly . It's just a characteristic of when humans get together . But I'm friends with a lot of American lab guys and , I think , a lot of the British lab guys . They don't understand that . I think they're like , why ?

I'm like look , there's a lot of people that just want to really breed nice dogs and I've seen some really , really , really bad British dogs and I've seen some really nice American dogs . I haven't seen a ton of nice English dogs . I've seen some okay ones . You know , don't get me wrong . I've got friends that are listening to this are going to hate that .

I said that and I have a bench bred , full on show , bred Springer Spaniel , in my house and I tell people , as far as intelligence goes , he's a beautiful dog , he's great .

But I will say this I have some people , chris Row , they train them to a high standard and they run tests and I really appreciate the folks that are trying to still maintain a standard of working ability . Right , that's cool .

And for those of you listening that don't know the difference , like when Bob and I are talking about that word , we mean Labradors who have a pedigree full of titles that took place in American field games . So it would be AKC hunt test , hrc hunt test , akc field trials , srs titles , nafta , whatever it might be . The titles were earned in America .

So the breed has an American provability . I would say British dogs and these terms . I feel like this should be defined more clearly for a lot of people . But British dogs in general are the same as what I just said , except the titles were earned in Great Britain or Ireland .

So you have the Kennel Club of England , which includes England , scotland , wales and Northern Ireland . You have the Irish Kennel Club , which includes the Republic of Ireland . They both have field trials , the rules are very similar and they both have working tests . So if a dog has the titles earned from those , that would be a British lab .

English lab could be from either , but what you and I think are both meaning is a showbred dog , so a dog that's bred for confirmation mostly , which I think those guys have done a great disservice to the breed in a lot of ways .

The American and the British weren't too different , but the English it's like well , yeah , you know our british labs are far more similar to american labs than they are to showbred english labs .

it to you . We're going to post it as part of this podcast release . Yeah .

I think it's a trained trait , and one of the things that I love about breeding dogs is how easy it is to influence . Right , I'm with you If I don't like the dog and I don't want to own the dog . I love about breeding dogs is how easy it is to influence , right , I'm with you .

If I don't like the dog and I don't want to own the dog , I'm not breeding it . If someone calls me and says , hey , I have people that have American females that want to breed to our studs and I'm fine with that , I don't have any problem with it . It's a Labrador right .

The only thing if it see your health test and your dog has some titles and whatnot , that's great . But people will call and say , well , one of the things I don't like about her is X , and that's the reason I want to use one of your studies is to try to breed it out . I'm like well , I understand what you're trying to do , I just don't think it's the .

How bad do you not like X ? Because you're going to get some puppies with it , right , you're going to have , if you have 10 puppies , you're going to have three or four that are really like mom , three or four that are really like dad and three or four that are really a mix of the two . That's my opinion .

If you have something about a stud dog that you don't like , it shouldn't be a stud dog that you don't like . This shouldn't be a stud dog . That's an easy variable to control right , that's why I haven't had one god , like they got it . That's why I import almost all of mine . I'm like , hey , I need to know everything about this dog before I get it .

And I've imported four for big money that I bred one or two times and said not out of here because it just wasn't what I wanted to produce .

Or we noticed some things about the dog that we were like , no , this is not what we wanted , so we're , we will definitely weed one out if , uh , even if it came over here with big titles , I had a irish championship winner that I just after a few litters said , no , that's not not what we're going for . Um , but you know , the damn people are .

People love their dogs , they want to breed them . They especially if they have a female , they want to carry their line on . But for us , like if that's a dog you wouldn't want to own and hunt over , and if there's a eliminating fault , if there's something about that dog , you're like I'm trying to breed this out , just don't breed it .

The quickest way to get it out is to remove it from the genetic gene pool . Yeah , so British and American dogs , we don't have to go into that necessarily , but I want to hear about your experience with pressure and we'll get into a little bit more of it right after this . But just pressure as a part of your training regimen , what does it look like ?

Give me sort of your rundown of the definition of pressure , how you're using it in training for productive work with the dog and if , have you seen a difference in how certain dogs handle pressure ?

I think that I don't know , man I . I think that that is just more false than than true nowadays . I have one British lab right now that is like three for three at master . She's a little bottle rocket . She can handle collar pressure extremely well , like doesn't give a crap . Physical pressure , or that perceived pressure , is more sensitive to it .

So I'm I'm sensitive to it as well , but collar pressure , no biggie . I think american labs in the last I'm going to say 10 years , have become that as well . I think that they have become so smart , and this is maybe why british labs are that way too .

They're smart , they don't want to be in trouble , they don't want to do wrong , and then they take it a little bit to heart when they perceive it the collar , collar pressure is is very similar , because collar pressure and I think you want to talk about this , so maybe we will , maybe we won't , but collar pressure is is no big deal when used properly , at the

right time and had been taught properly . The dogs don't give a crap . It's humans that make it a negative connotation . The dogs are just being trained but , like prong collars , some people hate them , some people love them . Uh , you know the harnesses that go over a dog's snout . Well , you yank the crap out of a dog with that on us .

Now it's going to suck . It's also a gentle leader and it sounds really great in marketing . So you know what I'm saying . Like it's all . It all can be used in a negative . I don't even want to use the word negative cruel way . That's a better word , yeah , cause negative .

We're talking like negatives and positives , of punishment and pressures and this and that . So let's not use negative . So in a cruel way , my foot can be bad or it could touch them just gently and it changes their behavior and their thought process .

And that's a beautiful way to talk to a dog , because dogs understand physical corrections , because that's how their mother and brother and father talk to them . So a little touch on the butt could get them to just tweak just a hair to look over here , or maybe not look over here but change their mind frame .

Okay , um , but I think that a lot of dogs with that intelligence are trying to do the right thing and so perceived pressure or physical pressure or things like that are a little more tough on them than the actual work .

Slash collar pressure , um , and I've trained , I've trained a bunch of southern oak dogs that I mean I don't train them any different , I just train them like a labrador and they don't they handle collar pressure . They handle if I'm doing you know a healing stick for you know steadiness . They don't care , they want to go get that bird just like anybody else .

So I think it comes down to the dog in front of you . I don't care , care if it's . I've got a Springer Spaniel right now in training . It's the dog in front of you . How is it reacting to what we're doing , the task at hand ? How do I maintain a positive attitude ?

How do I make sure that it learned something so that , like you , can have a positive attitude ? But if it's still doing wrong , that ain't right . If something , so that , like you can have a positive attitude . But if it's still doing wrong , that ain't right .

If it's doing really well and you've got to be a little bit more strict with it , okay , what does it do a month from now ? Do I not have to that way anymore ? And it maintained positive attitude and it's doing it more right More often . Cool , we're learning , we're growing . So , um , I use the collar , I use a healing stick , I I use a choke chain .

I'll sometimes use a prong collar because you can be pretty gentle with it and it gets the desired result . And you know , check cords and treat training . I don't do a clicker , like you had mentioned early . But , like you said , like the q and the clicker , it's just they . You teach them how to learn , you show them how to learn .

You repeat that a boatload of times until they do it pretty well . Then you overlay some sort of pressure . Maybe it's the leash upward , lift on the leash for a set . But it's a ground , good dog , you know pressure is released . Uncomfortable , comfortable and praise . We do the same thing with an e-collar . The dog understands the task at hand .

I've built the understanding . Then I overlay that understanding with collar stimulation . Dog understands how to turn it off . It's not intimidating , it's not fearful it shouldn't be . I also feel that it builds some resilience . You know , like compulsion training can build a little resilience when the going gets tough .

They've overcome things in the past that were tough and they'd gotten better and more confident in it , and therefore they're able to tackle more challenges later on . Um , and it's not because I'm making them do it . I may have made them do it before , but it's not because they're fearing the fact that I'm making them do it .

I may have made them do it before , but it's not because they're fearing the fact that I'll make them do it . It's the fact that by being made to do it , they realize they could do it and now they can do it , nothing in their way , if that makes sense .

Um , going back , I agree there , there , I don't want to throw any people under the bus at all , but I do think for a long time british labs were imported as washouts um , and that when you go there , yeah , when you go over there and watch trials , there are some heavy trainers over there . There are some trainers who use a lot of pressure over there .

There are some that don't and there are some that are successful at both . But when you go over there and see the dogs that are successful , you're like , oh , that's a dog I'd want to own . And then when you see some of them that came over , especially in the 90s and early 2000s , you're like , oh , that's a dog I'd want to own , right .

And then when you see some of them that came over for , you know , in the , especially in the nineties and early two thousands you're like , oh , that's not . I mean , I think that's why they got a bad rap with so many American trainers is because they just would crumble at anything , right , just terrified of their own shadow .

Um , so yeah , I see a lot of soft American dogs in training . I see a lot of soft British dogs . I see pressure per se having effects on both . I don't think there's a massive . I don't think the gulf of difference is huge . I want to talk a little bit about compulsion training .

I definitely want to talk about force fetch we mentioned you did a debate on force fetch . I don't want to get too much into that . It was one of those moments where I feel like I'm not a force fetch guy . I do feel like I have a deep understanding of force fetch and I don't think that it's a bad thing at all .

And I don't think when it's done properly it's a bad thing . I'm not a compulsion guy but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing . So I'm going to just kind of summarize where I stand with it and then I'd love to hear your thoughts

on a little bit of it . So for me , particularly with British dogs , which is what I deal with 99.9% of the time , what I deal with 99.9% of the time they have been bred Ray , you know reared , socialized , train and handled two titles without compulsion since , you know , 1912 ish .

So you have 110 , 112 years of field trials and there have been a lot of developments in the training right . The training is much higher standard now than it was then , but those dogs weren't bred in an environment where compulsion training was used was used .

So I do think you have some British dogs that can handle the compulsion really well and I think you have some that wash out real quick because they cannot handle the pressure , especially if it's not done properly , if it's done hastily or I think that it comes down to being a good trainer , whether it's an amateur or a professional that can read the dog in that

situation , right ? So that takes , I think you and I would agree quite a bit of experience , knowledge and maybe even some things that you can't teach .

There's a level of handling and training dogs and I'm kicking myself in the foot for saying this , right , because this is brought to you by Cornerstone Gundog Academy , and I think this is where the statement you made that you apologized for came from which I understand your sentiment .

There are some things that you just can't teach when it comes to being a dog guy . There are some levels of reading a dog and being able to read dogs that you can't teach . It just comes with natural inclination and a lot of experience . How many dogs do you have in training right now ? 34 .

Okay , so in a week , the amount of experience you get at the line with a dog is probably what the average Joe is going to get in maybe a year , yeah , the amount of experience , and even more so because he's going to have one , two or three dogs , so his experience is going to be limited to those one , two or three personalities . That's right .

You got 30 plus , so you have to . You have to switch . Uh , uh , you know , flip a switch constantly Like , okay , well , now it's this dog . I can't do that . I got to switch it over to this . So the the experience for a pro trainer is that a whole .

So I think that's why you for those that don't know , bob made a comment on a podcast where essentially you can , you can restate it . I , I knew what you meant but you kind of said , without saying it , people can't do it on their own , they need a pro .

Yeah , I can just dig myself out of the hole because I've been there before , like sure , you know , that dog I was talking about that's a little nervous , looking out of water . I'm not nervous because next month during some of this rehab of I'll just I , I'll get her out of it , right .

But yeah , I felt awful re-listening to that podcast going , wait a minute , I'm supposed to be the guy that puts out a podcast and YouTube videos and a Patreon that coaches people how to build their own dog so that they can do it themselves and feel good about doing it themselves . I don't want to belittle anybody .

Yeah , the way I equate it is similar to what you're saying . There is a gift and it's like throwing a football .

We've all seen the person that , no matter how many times you tell them to put one foot in front of the other and throw , it's still going to be just slightly unathletic looking and awkward and can't throw a spiral yeah no matter how much their coach brett farve could coach him , and they just will always throw it a little wonky .

I thought the clarification was great .

Your apology was fine , but I didn't necessarily think it was 100% necessary because , I mean , I understood what you meant by it and I'm in an awkward position because I am one of the founders and owners of Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy , where we're trying to take people who have no idea how to train a dog and teach them how they can train their own gun dog .

I'm also a partner in the Hunt Test Guide , where we're trying to take people who don't know how to get a started title and get them to a HRCH or a master hunter .

So I'm on both sides of that , so are you . I think people can get better . I think people can go from I don't have a clue to hey , here's my duck dog that I'm really proud of . Yes , for sure . I think we would agree with that .

My thoughts on compulsion in general have always been hey , I don't think it's a bad thing , I think it's a dangerous tool to put in the hands of somebody who doesn't understand , who's new and doesn't know how to read dogs , and I don't think it's an absolute requirement for training a gun dog .

So with Cornerstone we elected early on , we're going to go a non-compulsion route . People call us a positive reinforcement only . That's false . We're not that . I mean you're training heel with a slip lead . You're not positive reinforcement . You know a slip lead . Throw it out the window . You know you're . If you're using a slip lead .

You're correcting a dog , you're using punishment . It's uncomfortable , um , but we were like hey , for the average Joe who's never had a dog , I'm not comfortable in this first journey teaching them hey , here's force fetch you have . You've done that and and done that , and I don't think it's a bad thing .

Clark and Lyle are going to be doing that in the hunt test guide with us , right ? I don't think that's a bad thing . I just think for training a gundog , start to finish , it's not a requirement and I think that there can be more risk than there might be reward .

Um , so I did a force fetch course , an online course , and I broke it down as far as I could and I sat and explained things and I had dog like I had one dog that kind of squealed , you know , during it and the only thing that I would change in my course is that I wish I showed a dog that did stuff like that from start to finish , because what I

did was I had I think it was 12 dogs , all different breeds , all different personalities , and I showed the different steps to go from day one to day you know , end , whatever that is for you and your dog , and no one got to see , you know , know one dog completely , start to finish .

But I also think doing one dog that has one personality doesn't show everything either trust me , I've experienced this chat , we've done .

If you feel this way , maybe take a deep breath like , or maybe the dog got a little nervous , and so I slowed down here , I sped up here , I praised here , I didn't praise here . You know , whatever I just I tried to make it . I had another boss one time say how do you make a peanut butter sandwich ?

And I'd be like well , you get peanut butter , jelly and bread and you got a peanut butter sandwich . He's like so I take my hand and pour the peanut butter out on the piece of on a loaf of bread , and I'm like okay , man , so I tried to make it so simplified that it was hard to get into trouble on it .

Yeah , and push a dog too far , too fast or not progress a dog , and so you're beating a dead horse . You know what I'm saying ? Like you should have gone two weeks ago . Sure Um , where were we going with this ?

What happens when things happen and they're not a tool in the tool belt to create an answer ? No-transcript , and it was done , it's not halfway done , it's not a quarter of the way done , it's all the way done . And that dog fully understands what I'm asking of it .

I'm not lighting it up , it's not a hand of god coming down , I just put a little bit of stem . He goes oh yeah , I got you . Yeah , just a hand . And then you repeat , and repeat , and repeat , and repeat and all of a sudden it's like non-issue , let's move on yeah , I , I don't disagree with you at all .

So you pinch the teeth to the jowl , yeah , and roll it back in and then , good , dog hold . You know that's probably very similar to you and that's a quick process for me and for my guys . I mean at the longest that's a two-week process .

If you have a really difficult dog , usually it's three days , right , and some dogs you don't really need much of it at all . It's just like a reminder and I'm going to fix it . Coming out of the water issue , with that dropping out of the water issue pretty quickly , I'm not going to stand in the water .

I'm not doing retrieve standing in the water beyond the puppy face , right Intro to water . Beyond that I'm not getting in the water . I don't have time to people in the UK . They're not getting in the water either , and over there you don't ever .

I can't think of a single time I've seen a no-go and I can't think of a single time I've seen a dog drop a bird over there . I don't think that they're 100% necessary for that and I think you're going to get no-goes from perceived pressure , right , I mean , I think that's going to happen .

If they haven't heard it or maybe this is the first time listening they're gonna go okay all right .

Um , I I , the easier example for attrition for me would be bad casts on a blind yeah , I mean easiest would be a drill like running a pattern blind or running a . Um , yeah , I give an angle right , cast , and the top dog turns and digs and goes the direction it wants to go beer , you know , veers off and scallops scalloping is .

It does turn right but then boom , veers left . If I give that cast an angle right and it scallops and goes to the left , I'm going to blow my whistle , I'm going to call them back to the infraction point , I'm going to stop them and I'm going to cast again the same exact cast . They do it again . I bring them back . No pressure , just here .

Well , you're going to still say no , but no , here tweet , cast again until they take the cast and then you let them carry that cast . That would be doing something over and over and over again until they get it right and then they go . Huh , guess I should have gone that way .

The dog didn't give you the right cast , or you're frustrated , the dog kept dropping the duck or whatever it might be that you're dealing with . You're frustrated , the dog didn't sit on the whistle . Um , but if you're going to use attrition for this , you're just gonna have to repeat and simplify . You know , repeat , repeat , repeat , simplify .

If the dog , if you , if you repeat it a few times and you're still getting the undesired result , now you got to simplify . Now you realize , and for cornerstone , we , we , we've really focused . We have a module called Dog Learns and we go through the four phases of learning .

So skill acquisition , right , and then fluency , so acquiring a skill , becoming fluent at the skill , and then generalization and then maintenance .

So there's a lot of times puppies are a great example right , you can have your puppy heal when you're walking around with a treat all around your house and then all of a sudden , you show up at the dog park and your puppy just goes wild , right , and they're like I won't listen at all .

Well , it acquired a skill , but it's not fluent in the skill , so anyway , we really focus on that and tell people you're gonna have to use a lot of attrition , you're gonna have to do attrition in multiple environments to get to what you're . What you eloquently said is the definition right , you can't get it wrong .

You've repeated it enough times uh , compulsion training , uh , or pressure I don't like using all the bad words to describe it . Pressure , even now , has this negative connotation and I appreciate you earlier removing the word negative , because when we use negative and positive with dog training , we're really talking about whether you want a dog .

With negative and positive , you're talking about whether you're adding something or removing something . Right , that's it . With punishment and reward , you're talking about I want the dog to keep doing something or I don't want the dog to do that anymore , right , and that's really all it is . Compulsion training for me is when you are using negative punishment .

So you're removing something the dog doesn't like in order to get the dog to do something . So really , it's negative reinforcement , right ? So , yeah , negative reinforcement . So you're reinforcing a behavior by removing something the dog doesn't like so you make something uncomfortable .

So the dog does it the right thing and you remove stimulation , you remove the thing the dog doesn't like , and so the dog learns how to turn that pressure off , turn that uncomfortable thing off , and so what you get is a solidified behavior in that and you don't really use that to teach , you use it to reinforce .

So you I would say you guys don't use people are like well , I don't , I don't need force fetch , my dog already picks up ducks . Well , the force fetch is the whole point is not to teach the dog to pick up ducks . If it's labrador , it's probably picking up everything . Right . If you've raised it properly , it's going to pick up birds .

If you've introduced , introduced it to birds properly , it's going to pick up birds . If you've introduced it to birds properly , it's going to pick up birds .

The point of force fetch is to reinforce this command to where it's like hey , I've learned that if pressure is applied to me , the way to turn it off is to follow through with what I've been asked to do . Would you agree with ?

Like I think that there are some dogs that don't look great during the compulsion stage because they don't look great . You know they .

They may have been spoiled , it may be their personality , it may be less finesse , but the ones who want to learn and the ones who are kicking up and taking names , they look just as good whether you use the collar or not , but they're , they're picking up on what you're putting down .

But two is it it is teaching them how to learn via the compulsion , via pressure , via how to succeed , right . But it's also teaching them and laying a foundation , which , if you're building a good house , you want a strong foundation . If you're not using a collar , you can still build a strong foundation .

But the point is in my , my program and a lot of the American style trainers program is that force fetch and compulsion training allows building blocks so that when we progress into T-pattern swim by de-cheating , just running blinds and stopping while on a whistle or changing directions on a hand signal and them blowing it off , whatever the case may be , we have a

tool in our tool belt that is instantaneous , clearly communicated and timely . Communicated , they go okay , it processes in their brain and they now know how to fix it .

They choose it again , that's up to them , but I've clearly communicated it and I've clearly shown you how to do it the right way , because I've built a foundation of learning through this process I like that , I like , I like that definition and I like that just explanation of how it works .

mean . I , when we announced that we were partnering with clark and doing the hunt test guide , the internet flipped out , which was funny , right , and I've had him on the podcast . I mean he and I are great friends . Yeah , people were like , oh my god , because we in their minds are like you're the positive reinforcement guys and we're not .

But what we realized and I'm taking a risk saying this what we realized was we were graduating people out of our program . That's not right , that's okay . People were like , oh well , I did Cornerstone , I got this gundog that I really love . Now I got this hobby I love .

I want to go run puppy hunting and I want to do it myself yeah and then we realized , okay , well , once they get to that neck , that the one there's a percentage I don't know what it is , there's a percentage that I don't know what it is . There's a percentage that gets to that next level .

And they're like I want to do more Right , I want to go deeper in this . And that's why we partnered with those guys to say hey , look , we need someone that can take you deeper .

We need , we need to go , and that's why you do what you do Right , and I don't think that's wrong , and I don't think that those methods are wrong and in fact I think that they're more important when you are running tests . I don't think de-cheating is bad for hunting dogs at all .

I de-cheat my dogs , I think it's a good thing and I do it through attrition . But I think some of the nitty gritty parts of handling are not super useful for gun dogs . Some of it , right , I think you would . I mean , there's a reason that the end of hunting season , our hunt test dogs are loose , right .

It's like hey , I go run a master test the weekend after duck season , you're going to be loosey goosey . You're going to have a mess , right , and but that's okay , and I , that's okay and that's not a fault . I think we would probably agree there . But again , for us it was like , hey , we're teaching these guys at the very beginning . I want them to learn .

I think dogs learn best through positive reinforcement . I think that reward-based training is the best way to teach them a skill . Right , I think you would agree , because I don't think you would ever use compulsion or force on anything they haven't learned already . That's correct . Okay , so you're using it after as a layer , as a layer Right ?

I also just think , when the going gets tough and they make bad choices , like there are dogs I'm going to say this , but I don't really mean it there are dogs that are just black hearted , you know , they're just going to , if they don't cheat that water , they're going to cheat it wholeheartedly , and they know better .

I've got some they're just like yeah , I know you want me to sit still , but that cupped up , mallard , just I've got some . That to me is where , like you got the tool in the tool belt , I can get my point across right then and there and I don't have to harp on it . But I don't think we're that different .

I think the perception that people have on the Internet and the marketing behind all of it is you're one way , bob's another and I follow him . So that's the way he's right and he's wrong . Another and I follow him . So that's the way he's right and he's wrong . No , I don't man , I think training a great duck dog is not rocket science .

It's a ton of fun and at the end of the day , we all want people to go out and do it with their dog and do it well and have fun . And the dogs have fun .

Like for you to take your dog and I don't care how you got there Like it's amazing that that you're proud of this dog that did whatever , this amazing retriever . Your buddies are so shocked at the obedience . All that stuff is amazing and everybody's going to hopefully keep going . Genetics plays a big part .

I don't even want to go down that road right now , but we sort of did . We did , but you , you understand it because you have a bit of a program online too , and sometimes it's funny , because I'm a breeder . I have a line of dogs that I really love . I breed those dogs . I'm a partner in Cornerstone Gundog Academy . I fully believe in it .

And then there's people that get in and they're having trouble and I'm like well , let me see the background of your dog . And you're like oh shoot , listen , dude , we talked about minivans . You can't show up to a Baja race with a minivan .

There's certain times where you bring a dog in and you're like , hey , genetically speaking , you're just going to be lucky to get a dog that retrieves a tennis ball out of this , like that , and I want those people to reach that dog's highest potential while simultaneously understanding dogs have different ceilings , right genetically speaking , which is tough .

I want to talk a little bit more about force fetch . Okay , um with you , we don't use it in cornerstone . We don't use compulsion training in cornerstone .

. So , like I have Noah Parsons , he's in Kansas . Noah's , to my knowledge , the only American to earn a field trial champion title on a British dog in England , which is really cool .

He's super , super talented , but he's the dog that's going to say hey , I know you said stop , but I see that thing over there and maybe you didn't see that thing over there , so I'm going to go . And then he has one that is a lot of perceived pressure . She's super soft and the pressure is all like right around you .

So physically speaking , you can't get on her Right , like if you correct her a lot , she's taking everything personal right , everything is an offense . Both of those dogs are going to leave Noah and go to Wally and Wally is going to use an e-collar on both .

One of them is going to get an e-collar because and the e-collar for one of them is essentially going to be a 300-yard long slip lead Right , and that's the corner . I have a blog . I've written , I sent you about e-callers like hey look , tweet , you don't stop . If you don't stop on a check cord . What do you do ? Right , stop the dog .

Well , that's it , don't stop . I'm going to nick you All , right , buddy ? Well , you , you can't just perceive that , that this is a bad place , and run back to the kennel . I know , you know how that goes .

100% Is behind me and now we start off and you might see , not that he did something wrong or while he is , you know the jesus of training , it's just the fact that dog gets a a week off and then a new person standing .

But like one day she's great , one day she's going to run to the kennel , this dog , and this dog needs so . And wally's very good at that . Finesse , right . So all that to say . Some of my guys use a collar . The dog I mentioned , arden 500 point club I think . He's 33 for 35 and finished tests and he's a master hunter . Never failed a master test .

If you put an e-collar on that dog and told him to go , he wouldn't move because he thinks it's a leash . He's never worn an e-collar , he would not . So he's . He accomplished all that without one Right and he's also an English field trial winner .

Over there you got to win a novice stake to run in opens , and the novice and open over there has nothing to do with it's not like pro and amateur . It has to do with the dog , not the handler . So , uh , he's a novice winner and has an award in an open stake and then came over here .

So all that with no collar , it's a and , as I'm sure you would agree , it can be done right . It doesn't have to be the , the tortoise and the hare like . It doesn't have to be a super , super long route . Sure , it probably takes a few more reps , but it doesn't have to be a deal where you spend so much time .

I do have that listed as a question for you later on . Uh , force fetch we got to get back to that . We rabbit hold , um , do you think that there are some long-term effects from force fetch on the breed ?

Yep , was it because of who he's bred by or was it because , you know , for the first six months he had tennis balls , stuffed animals , squeaky toys and a ton of fun bumpers in the backyard , and now he comes in chomping .

Yeah , I've , I have essentially have fixed it via and I'm not even done with force fetch , I haven't applied anything in the field but just from a couple sharp , you know , corrections on the table , because he'll get all excited like , oh , yeah , I get to put something in my mouth . Yeah , so I can't . I , I don't know .

I don't know what is dad and mom like , what is the grandparents like . I don't know the answer . I just know what's sitting in front of me and I know that , like a couple sharp corrections on the table of and to if someone's going , well , what did you do , bob ? I lifted sharply up , directly up , with my left hand on his flat collar .

In essence , you're choking the dog and what their brain does is go oh , this is uncomfortable , let me think about this and they stop thinking about chomping yeah as soon as you see their brain relax , you relax and then , they go chomping stops . So it's like an indirect pressure approach of they're thinking about something else .

They stop doing the behavior that you don't want and you reward that by relaxation and then you praise that .

I think you have to remove a lot of your personal feelings about these things . I think it's important to objectively approach them and say , hey , if it's such a bad thing , why are there so many really happy dogs winning so many titles that have been force-fetched ? It's so bad , right .

But at the same time , you can also , from the other side , say , why are there so many nice dogs that are gun dogs or hunt test dogs that have never been force-fetched , that are not dropping the duck ? We don't have no-goes a lot here .

The dogs that we have no-goes with are usually the ones that we've had to use the most amount of pressure on , and so you know , I think that's a fair statement , right ? I think you've probably experienced somewhat similar , right ? It's like , hey , sometimes and now don't get me wrong you can push through force fetch .

Yeah , um , I think that stickiness comes from from potentially genetics pre-pre-disposed is that the right word ? yeah , predisposed genetics yeah , um , as well as the dog's demeanor , like is it a super , um , dominant dog , possessive dog .

And then I also think it's pressure related , where dogs may not be super one way or the other , like I just described , but they've had so much like to get through a grand or the master nationals . They may have so much and I'm going to use the word pressure , but I mean training like so much stuff jammed down their throat to be able to accomplish .

Boys and birds under the arc , blinds , with the wind blowing towards them , this that you're just throwing so much information at them that they're feeling that , yep , and they , they create this behavior , um , and that we almost always .

, there .

He showed , you know , you gave a couple of the attritions , you gave a couple of the resends , but then there's that fine line . We're like oh boy , if I do this again , he's gonna get confused and go well , if I was wrong each time I'm not going . Then you got another predicament .

Every bird gets handed to the judge first and the judge does . When I say thorough , I mean they're feeling that bird and if there's chomp marks they'll pull the other judges . I've seen it . I saw it happen in October of this year . I saw it happen three times . They'll pull the other judges over and they'll say , hey , feel this .

They'll have a little conference about it and they'll either say , say hey , the bird was just shot hard . Or they'll say , hey , bob , thank you for your , your service today . Put your dog on a lead , your dog chopped the bird and they'll let you feel here's what we , here's what we see with this game . It was improperly handled .

They're not using compulsion training , so that's going to be genetic right almost all the time . So they're trying to compulsion training , so that's going to be genetic right almost all the time . So they're trying to eliminate ever breeding that ? Does that make sense ? There's not a lot of pressure in the hold . It could possibly be from pressure .

Why does the dog chomp ? Yeah , I'm I'm guessing it's a genetic disposition to chomping with those dogs it .

But just that maybe that dog had to watch seven other dogs do these retrieves . It had waited longer than everybody else . Because of that predicament it was pent up . All of a sudden it gets shot . It's a closer bird and wham . It's not necessarily hard mouth , it just was hard mouth in that moment .

It's like , hey , at that point we're kind of done , right and so that dog's not going to be put in the breeding pool , hopefully , and that's a more natural way , whereas I do , I believe , through force , you can , I , and I think it's a double-edged sword , dude .

So I think you can fix those issues , but I also think you can really up up them in the breeding pool . Does that make sense ? You can ask some . I don't think that's . I think that's a , it's a catch 22 . I'm not saying it's good or bad , right .

Right , if that dog is the best dog I've ever seen mark a bird , totally easy to train , fun to train , good looking , healthy , it has everything and once in a great while he comes back with a bird , that's . I mean , I'm not talking crunched , I'm talking just a little bit of something .

I think it's good because we I mean , yeah , I think it's good for people to hear . I said on the very first episode of the lab podcast my goal here was to build bridges where a lot of people burn them down . Right , my goal is always to kind of bridge these gaps and help people understand . Hey , there's really probably a lot more in common .

Left it as a comment on an instagram post the day someone was ragging on a post on the grind about you know , shoot ducks in your own state , and I was like , hey , listen , people that come to your state and pay good money for an out-of-state duck stamp and a license , that's not the enemy .

Yeah , the people that hate duck hunting and duck hunters , that's who you need to be worried about . Don't worry about me coming and shooting 20 ducks in a weekend , like it's , it's . So I like , I like the the bridge building . Uh , I want to go to a couple more things . I know we've been going a long time . Are you good on time for just a minute ?

Um , I want to talk about the idea of being fair to the dog , because this is where I think a lot of people , a lot of trainers you mentioned earlier a foot right your foot can be a quick correction that's helpful or it could be abusive . Right , a collar same . And I think there are misconceptions about the collar out there .

I like training without one because I like the challenge . I was taught that way . I like attrition , I like the style of dog I have , which generally doesn't really need a lot of correction . I don't have a lot of boneheaded dogs . I've had a few and they put a collar on them .

So we don't really disagree there , other than for you it's like hey , I'm using it every time Cause it's simple . Right , it's that , that's the way I I correct , it's quick , it's easy , it's it's clear communication and we don't we don't disparage that in cornerstone at all .

Right , it's like hey , if you want to use a collar like a slip lead and use it like if we have whole courses on using long lines . Use it the same way , right ?

If you're using a check cord , it's not that different if you're especially like , let's take , for instance , stop into the whistle right , and that is probably a whole nother podcast worth of conversation . But it is interesting to me how electronic callers can be used as positive punishment and negative reinforcement .

That's a whole deal like using a collar to correct a no-go versus using a collar to correct a sit refusal . Those are two very different things and it's crazy to me the work it takes to get dogs to understand the difference . And that's where I do get nervous about first-time guys Like your timing , your communication . All that is so , so tough .

Well , am I working on no going or am I working on stopping ? I'm not working on stopping if I've got a no-go issue not putting them together in the same session . So if I go to T pattern and I've got a dog that no goes or pops , I just completely stopped doing a T pattern session .

Maybe it's like halfway through T pattern and I was going to stop it and cast it and this and that and like we're we're halfway through . But I get a little bit of that confusion and pop in halfway because he thinks I'm going to stop it at the pitcher's mound . Well , now we just got into a .

My T pattern session went from T pattern to in route force or a little force to a pile and just a bunch to the back pile and you're done for the day . Does that make sense ? So I'm not trying to do 10 things at once and eat the elephant in one bite . I have .

How many times should you send them to the back pile versus how many times should you stop them at the pitcher's mound and cast them ? Well , that totally depends on the dog , totally . Yeah , right , the general rule of thumb I'm sending two times to the back top pile for every one . Stop some dogs .

I can , you can stop them a whole bunch and their momentum never slows Some dogs . They need five or six run throughs before you stop them because otherwise they're gonna start popping on you . Like it's that those are intangible things that just you go to . You go do it with 30 dogs and you're going to learn a bunch , right .

It's like bro , we didn't call him , or Mike Lardy or any . Now people say , hey , I'm going to pay you a subscription fee and that gives me a 20 minute phone call each month with you to work through horse fetch T-pad and running blinds studying your dog , whatever the case , may be .

I just want you to give me like two minutes on what it means to you to be fair to the dog , because I think that this is where we really agree and this is where good trainers all agree . This is where Clark and I really agree , and both of us would admit there are times in our careers where we weren't so good at this .

You have to check your ego at the door and you have to take a deep breath and move on . Don't pout yourself and don't let the dog pout , but learn from that . None of us are perfect , but being fair to a dog means the task that I'm asking them to do is within their capabilities and or building on top of it .

So , teaching a puppy sit with a treat and I mean a puppy , a 10-week-old puppy does it great in your kitchen when it's feeding time and will sit for its bowl of food Awesome , nailed it .

Then you go to your friend's house and there's another dog playing and you're trying to show him that your dog sits with a treat and it doesn't sit and you grab it and yank it and sit it down . Not fair . That's just a stupid example I could come up with real quick .

But the point is , if the dog understands it and I've shown it to it time and time again . I've taught the behavior that I'm asking . I can then hold it to a standard and then I can push it beyond that standard .

When I start pushing beyond that standard , I'm going to let something slide in order to keep my progression moving forward , but I'm also going to have a set of standards that I will not let slide .

Yeah , so you know , if I'm getting a dog to run really long marks , I'm still going to hold them to being steady when they're of that age , right , but I don't know . I'm struggling with examples , but I , I want to push a dog I don't want them to stay simple .

I want to push them past their comfortability , but I'm going to be fair to that dog in that , for sure .

Expectations of them but I'm going to teach , I'm going to show them again , I'm going to teach them in new places , I'm going to show them again , I'm going to teach them in new places , I'm going to show them again and then , when I understand , that they understand , then I can hold them to a standard and uphold that standard .

If the dog doesn't like , let's say , on a whistle cast , if it can't see you or it's behind a in the woods , it's probably , you know , not the right time . Yeah , it Can't hear you . If I blow a whistle and this would be my British lab deal that whistle is kind of quiet . Yeah , it's running water and it's a hundred yards out .

It may not hear that beep . And now you've got someone that's pushing a button on them . That is not fair , cause I cannot determine . Does he hear me or is he blowing off my whistle ?

You know , you just make sure they understand what you're asking before you go to correcting and or compose .

Yeah , right , I know for certain this dog heard my whistle and knows to stop , but didn't . When you know for certain , then there's plenty of time for correction . Uh , that that that is the opportune time for correction . Otherwise it's like , hey , attrition , go back , let's simplify , let's repeat . And that is a fun thing to teach to people .

It's fun when you see the light bulb click , people learn to read the dog . But that , to me , is the task . I'm like hey look , I can explain to anyone how to run a wagon wheel Right , anyone how to run a wagon wheel right .

But when you line your dog up and it takes 10 steps out and then veers left away from the , the piece of the spoke of the wagon you were sending it , what do you do ? No , here I can give you instructions on what to do , right , yeah , but like it takes a lot . It takes a lot that that takes time to just learn number one don't blow your whistles .

A correction the whistle should never be a bad thing . I'm big on a verbal no , not a whistle stop . No , I don't like the whistle to ever be a bad thing . You're looking like that may be confusing for you . Do you understand what I mean by that ?

I'm not making the whistle a negative because you're not making the correction at the same time as the whistle . Yeah , tweet , you're stopping . No , no , that ain't what we're doing . Do , yeah , I appreciate .

So anytime that I'm going to have to apply some type of pressure , even verbal pressure , to the dog , I try not to use the whistle , if that makes sense .

So I'm going to have it be so simple that they can't screw it up and I'm going to back up , back up , back up , back up . If they do make a mistake , I'm going to stop them , I'm going to recall them and I'm going to move up . To simplify again hit it right , maybe .

Hit it right again and back up again yeah , so just attrition there just attrition there , because if I get into handling with them and they start screwing up the handling , then you're the whole idea of them lining . Something is out the window on a wagon wheel . I do not blow my whistle , I just know here yeah , okay , yeah , but that would be similar .

But I'm just teaching you and and I'm going to move to the side where it creates an angle where you're going to have to kind of go past one a little bit Right .

That's a fun drill and for me it's big that if you've taught it enough and you're going back to revisit it , or if the dog's through pretty advanced in the drill and you're running it and they know I lined you for the far one and they're running , they're like , well , that one over there to the right it's a lot shorter , and then halfway there they start

going that way , right . For me that's going to be a correction with a verbal correction with a no If I hit the whistle and I stop . For me , given the no at that point is confusing . I think some dogs may stop on that whistle and I and this is this is my philosophy from puppy hood on that's fine Again .

Shout out to Aaron he's dealing with the dog right now that we bred and she's super fun , but relationally she's given his wife fits right . She's just like you're not the boss , right'm gonna do what I want . Yeah and uh , it's uh .

She doesn't want to recall , right , and she like today she went and picked up a , she found a glove in the park and was like this is mine , I'll see you later . That's about as frustrating of a thing in life as there is you know it'd be helpful .

E-collar yeah , oh , I told him , as in the city the text , I said she needs an e-collar with your wife needs an e-collar . I don't disagree , yeah , 100 . Because he was like , well , she's fine . On the check cord , I was like you need an invisible check cord that goes 300 yards . I'm not anti-e-collar , I'm all about .

I know you , I know you're not , but I am about being fair to the dog , right , uh , and I am also about usually trying to phase an e- . Out . But I also , like I will agree with the guy you debated a little bit . I love a dog with no collar on at all . I just like that . Yeah , it's fun for me , okay .

So , like , for that instance , where were we with that ? We were talking about that dog , not , oh , okay . So here's the thing , when the dog finally does come back , you can't be mad . You can't be mad . You can't be mad anymore . That's a hard thing to teach people . You're so mad , your blood pressure is through the roof and this dog refuses to recall .

And now it's different if you catch them . But that's not a good situation for anybody , Right . But if they finally say , okay , I'll come back , you can't be mad , Right , you can't correct that running around behavior anymore . That's because they came back . For me it's the same with sit whistles .

It's the same with a lot of different things in the field where I'm like all right , look , I got to . I got to and I know that sounds like talking from both sides of my mouth because I'm not using an e-collar , but my my both sides of my mouth because I'm not using an e-collar . But my dogs take to heart my verbal corrections , right ?

They're in general a little bit softer . I like a little bit of a softer dog and I like a stern no . And they're like oh shoot , I made the boss mad , so I don't want to hit a whistle , get a good sit and then a no . Does that make sense ?

Do you stop and handle them or do you yell no , stop them and then handle them ? What do you or you like I stop and handle yeah , I stop and handle , so all right . So if they took that , whistle is telling them you're not going the right way . I'm about to show you the where you need to go next . It's not to me , it's not to me a correction .

Or , uh , you're not going the right way . I'm about to show you the where you need to go next . It's not to me , it's not to me a correction . Or uh , you're doing something wrong . It's a look at me . We got somewhere like we got to do something different . We have to change direction . So I don't .

And then , if I were to , I would not put pressure on that whistle , right , right .

Yeah , Like those are all the variables that I would run through in my head in 0.2 seconds , but I don't think that I'm that different from what you're saying on my pattern blinds and wagon wheel .

I give it a left back , the dog takes the left turn and starts to immediately scallop toward the shoreline . I'm going to give the dog a verbal no first . Okay , that's just me . As soon as I see the dog scallop , it's a no . And they know they're going to turn and look at me and I was like , hey , look , we're going to simplify this .

I'm going to recall you back to where we started . I'm going to give you the left again . But it's just a nuanced difference . I don't think it's a huge thing . I think that we're that's very much in the weeds and I think for first time , trainers like you're here . You know what I mean . But it's , it's something that you do need to teach people .

Hey , read the dog , understand your communication . Video yourself . Video yourself . Video yourself training your dog with the issue you're having . And then let's talk about the video and you're going to probably be upset about the dog's behavior and my response is going to be hey , here , here's where you missed your timing .

Here's here's where you said this and you probably should have changed this , like I'm sure you feel , this it's , it's it's a lot , uh , which leads to my next and could be last question . I just I know we got to wind down soon you mentioned in your your I , I dude , I keep mentioning your debate podcast . I can't remember what the podcast was .

It's not super important , but if people want to go find it , you can gun dog it yourself .

We have a five month minimum . Southern Oak kennels does cornerstone guys Like we're ? My expectation with those guys is you , you need 12 . It was 52 plus or you 12 months , but they're starting with a puppy , right ? You're're starting with a puppy , right ? You're probably starting with a six , seven , eight month old or something like that .

What do you expect to accomplish in four months with your dogs ? Like , what's your hope ? That seems really short to me .

I think it might take us a little longer . You know , you pay me to do a service . I'm going to give you a product that I'm proud of at the end . So give me some wiggle room and I'll continue doing the best job I can , but I bet you maybe one a year I've got to do that with . So when they go home they are .

This is my pitch when I tell people like over the phone right , they're going to be steady , they're going to be collar conditioned and through formal obedience , they're going to be through force fetch , they're going to be shot . You know , good with gunfire , good with decoys , good with boats , good with blinds , good with live birds , good with dead birds .

Uh , long singles on land . I want all my gun dogs going home comfortable , going out to 150 plus yards on land . I want them doing simple doubles like in the decoys type of doubles . I want them doing diversion birds , which is me and you are duck hunting . You shoot a bird dog , goes and gets it . It's halfway back .

I shoot another bird in a safe direction from the dog . That dog does not drop that bird and switch . It , delivers that bird to hand and then goes out and gets the other bird . It's in canoes . It's on MoMA stands and ground blinds . You're popping out of a layout , blind shooting poppers .

It's like oh my bad , yeah , yeah , um , so with it . Does not do hand signals . If they want a dog to do hand signals , let's say to the seasoned or senior level I tell that 12 months , okay , that 12 months okay , consecutive , they can do four months .

Take it home and hunt , come back for my winter trip and it spends spring , summer with me and it's doing land blinds and simple water blinds . Go , stop , come , change directions .

It's just not going to happen , right , and yeah , I love that . For us it's a five month minimum . We recommend six months and that's usually like you might get lucky and pass the season test . Yeah , you're taking lines out . You're taking a line out to 75 , 80 yards .

You understand a stop whistle , you understand casting , but you're not proficient and I love sending dogs home at that and saying , hey , go duck hunt this dog , take notes on everything and then tell us what's up and then give us six more months and we'll have you a really nice dog .

You know , for my guys in cornerstone I hope you heard that 12 months to get a dog to seasoned or senior level of pro training .

We take a puppy that we believe in it's breeding and you know , by the time it's 12 months old it's it's doing that same thing , but the first couple of months it ain't really doing a whole lot . It's getting pins , it's getting ducks , it's being raised properly , but you're not like it's babysitting . Babysitting but building it the right way .

When this puppy gets to six months old , we will have done the job that you could have done as best as possible Social , bold , retrieving , loves life , knows some obedience , but like mostly just like a really fun dog , fun to be around , good attitude . I'm building momentum in those months .

Right , I want this dog to be just rolling downhill , but you might call and say okay , so from eight weeks to six months I've paid you whatever per month , whatever , that is right , let's just call it a thousand bucks a month . So I've got $4,000 in training in this dog . What's this dog worth ? Probably about what it was as a puppy .

But some people just say , look , I don't have the time . I'm totally cool with that . Somebody says , I don't have the time to do right by a puppy . You keep it , bob , like you . You know I'm going to pay you whatever it takes . And that's look , it takes all all types , right , everybody's different . It's again .

For me it goes back to being fair to the dog . If you know you don't have the time , let somebody else do it . Um , but yeah , I mean that four month window of just getting a dog essentially to like started .

So like my finish , my finished gun dog program , that four-month program , they can walk into any junior test and be totally fine . They could do senior level marks . They just aren't doing the blinds yeah , I love that .

For sure you can take a hunting . Give us a dog for another six , seven months and you're gonna have a heck of a dog you talk to people you're hunting with and their buddies have ever hunted with ? yes , a hundred percent and look , the standard in the world in general is very low .

You , you and I and I hate to be that guy , but , like even with with cga , what I love is hearing people say dude , my , you know , my friends hunt with us and they're blown away by this dog . Well , most people having a dog , that you throw dirt clods out and they still go get the duck is like a standard and they just bring the duck to the shoreline .

Having a steady dog , mark a bird and deliver it to hand . That's . We live in a bubble , guys . A lot of you folks that listen to this and you hang out at hunt tests and you think that a seasoned dog is a standard for everybody . For most people , an hr dog or a senior dog they would consider a dog of a lifetime .

Correct me if I'm wrong you get to hrch or master level . All your buddies are talking about it . Now the hunt test world's different because you've you've had a different standard , you've been introduced to it , right .

But I love seeing people take their first time training a dog to a level where it's like , hey , it's steady , it's delivering a hand , it's stopping on a whistle and it's like , holy cow , this is . And I hope that they all get that bug and I hope they go further , right , I hope that that it's a , it's a hobby for the rest of their life .

It extends your time outdoors , your time with your , your family , your time with your buddies . There's everything about training dogs is , to me , just awesome .

We don't have much to debate about , maybe sports teams , you know , I don't know , it's just at the end of the day , look we , we like a lot of the same things and there might be slightly different routes to getting there , but uh yeah , for me that's far more in common than there is different , and I hope people get that out of this conversation .

I highly , highly respect what you do up there in new york , or was it south carolina where you go georgia ? I can't remember where you went , or georgia you do up there in New York , or was it South Carolina where you go Georgia ? I can't remember where you went , or Georgia ?

Thanks , man .

So if you feeling froggy and want to jump on that you , you know there's links in the bio to Instagram to learn how I do it so that you can teach your dog how you want to do it . But I appreciate you just having me on here , man .

I enjoy our friendship and camaraderie in our sport and I hope that it brings people together instead of them pointing fingers at each other saying you're wrong .