Wayne Cordeiro on Leading on Empty (Encore Episode)

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Well, in today's episode, you're gonna hear a throwback , uh, because Laura and I, if we haven't had him already or anxiously awaiting our fourth child, and so December's gonna be a little busy. And we thought a great way to end the year would be to share some of our most popular conversations that we've had over the last few years. And my conversation with Wayne Cero is definitely one of those.

Uh, if you don't know Wayne, he wrote a , a extremely influential book that impacted my life deeply called Leading On Empty. And I got to interview him right when I was going through a really tough season. If, if you've been with me on the podcast for a while, I had a mental breakdown in the fall of 2020. And reading Wayne's book, leading On Empty and talking to Wayne about burnout and leading on empty was so, so helpful.

And , uh, when I have leaders come to me and tell me that they're struggling with burnout , uh, and they feel like they're leading on empty , I always point them to this conversation with Wayne and , uh, and recommend his book as well. So I think this is gonna add a ton of value to your life. But before we dive in, just a few announcements. This episode of the L three Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Barong Advisors.

The financial advisors at Barong Advisors help educate and empower clients to make informed financial decisions. You can find out how Barong Advisors can help you develop a customized financial plan for your financial future by visiting their website@barongadvisors.com. That's B E R A T U N G advisors.com. Securities and investment products and services offered through LPL Financial member FINRA s sipc , Barung Advisors , LPL Financial, and L three leadership are separate entities.

I also wanna thank our sponsor, Henny Jewelers. They're a jeweler owned by my friend and mentor, John Henny. My wife Laura and I got our engagement and wedding rings through Henny Jewelers and had a wonderful experience. And not only do they have great jewelry, but they also invest in people. In fact, for every couple that comes in engaged to their store, they give them a book to help them prepare for marriage. And we just love that.

So if you're in need of a good jeweler, check out henny jewelers.com. And with all that being said, here's my conversation with Wayne Cordero . Wayne, thank you so much for being willing to do this interview. And why don't we just start off with you just telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

It'll be an overabundance of underdeveloped leaders in places of leadership, and that's when the apostacy begins. So , uh, I really do wanna disciple up young men and women who know the word of God and are committed , uh, to see the kingdom of God advance in biblical ways.

Some ended up, well, some not so well, but he was, his assignment was permeated with discipleship. So some people see me as a church planter when an actuality church planting is a result of discipleship cuz you disciple up leaders and they need to go somewhere, they need to do something. So church planting is really a result of actually a different kind of , uh, desire and passion, and that's to build up leaders.

And I want to kind of get into both today, but especially in the world we live in today with Covid and the year that we've just had, I think so many leaders are dealing with leading on empty . And can you just start off just telling us about your personal story on why you wrote this book and what your experience was?

He's a fruit inspector. He talks about that with the fig tree . So I wanna make sure that I'm bearing some fruit. And in doing so, you everything you start, you gotta run, you gotta manage. You're the president, you're the pastor, you're, you're the top dog on everything. You start. And , uh, if you're , you're innovative , uh, in somewhat of a prolific way, you can't pass off these things fast enough and you don't want to because you can hand it off to somebody that'll destroy it.

And I've had that happen three times as some with some of the ministries that , uh, we began and they no longer exist today cuz I've passed them off too quickly to people that weren't ready. They had character flat spots and ineptitude in certain ways, but they're nice people. And I found out that nice people don't necessarily , uh, fit , uh, in every case. So , uh, I was just overwhelmed and , uh, not nefarious, not because I was malevolent or didn't do what Jesus wanted me to do.

It wasn't due to sin, it was simply because , uh, we were innovating and, and , uh, doing ministry. And I remember , uh, Doug , I was taking a jog before a conference that I was to speak at in California, and lo and behold, I find myself sitting on the curb on the street crying and my hands were shaking and I looked at my hands and I said to myself, something's broken, but I have no idea what it is or how to fix it.

So when I finally went back to Hawaii, I met with a psychiatrist friend of mine who's a wonderful Christian, and, and he said, basically, Wayne, your serotonin level has been depleted. You were running in your passion on endorphins, on excitement, on joy. But then when too many things start to pile up, now you've gotta manage, you've gotta do hr, you've gotta do taxes, you've gotta do problem solving. Now you're moving from your passion to something that is not in your wheelhouse.

Uh, and so , but you still have to do it. It's part and parcel of everything. Now, 80% of my energy was going to this area that was not my wheelhouse. And I had actually shifted. So now, instead of running on passion and excitement and my endorphins and serotonin because it was filling my tank, now I'm doing something that drains my tank. And I had no idea when that switched. So now I'm running on adrenaline, I'm running on duty, I'm running on, I gotta get this done.

So now I am leading on empty. You can't just say I'm done, I'm outta here for a year. Uh , you just can't do that. What would happen to the church, the people, you know, they'd go nuts. So you have to lead on empty. And lo and behold, Doug, it was a year and a half after that that I actually had a heart attack. And , uh, so I was flown to Stanford Medical and they put three stents in my heart.

And so still today I've gotta take a , an injection self-administered injection every two weeks to keep my heart clear. So how old are

Um, there's a fear that, hey, if , if I took off several months from work, you know, I don't know if I'd ever go back. Like, I , I feel like there'd be such a void . I mean , can you just speak to that? I'd , I'd just be curious what you learned from that. Yeah.

So it'll be nice to take a year where you stem it and reverse it before you come back, but that's not always the case. But if you can recognize, realize it have , be in some counseling and , uh, in a advisory group so that they can watch you. Cause often I say it this way, you know, the eye cannot see the eye. Uh, if you need something's wrong with your eye, you gotta have someone look at it for you. So that's where , uh, a rescheduling, a rebalancing of your life comes in.

Uh , but not a lessening of the passion. It can't be a lessening of your call. Some people just bail out on their call and go from an a plus a disciple to a C minus disciple, and they think that's what God wants. He does not, he wants you to stay as an a plus . And that includes balance. And that's what I have to find out.

Uh, you know, how do you tell the difference between, Hey, I'm just tired as a leader, versus, Hey, something's gonna end up not in a great place if you don't change something.

And so I went into a , a clinical depression. I had to have medication to get me back out. It was a pretty bad slide in , into a deep valley for me and found myself, you know, cringing on the floor of my office in a fetal position, crying. And , uh, it was just too, too painful. But , uh, Doug, you have to remember that even though it's a tough season, do not be afraid of it. If I could give you a pill or every pass or a pill or lit a pill to avoid that, I wouldn't do it.

Because you see, your plate might be this big and you're operating here and you gotta be able to find the edge of your plate or your potential , uh, your capacity. So what is it? And if we're so afraid of the edge, then you may live your whole life way beneath the potential that you really have, and you'll never find what your potential or capacity is. And the only way to stretch your muscles is stretching, is bring it to a fatigue.

So if you're a weight lifter, you know that there's a thing called , uh, you lift and do reps onto fatigue, muscle fatigue, then that's when the smaller cells break down . Bigger ones are built, stronger muscles result. So there's a plate that you have as if I can do that , uh, share that. And you gotta get to the edge of your plate now when you feel the pain of it, that's when you need to make some adjustments, not before. So don't be afraid of the pain. Do you have children, Doug?

But you have to allow pain to be that , uh, point of communication by God or your psyche telling you you need to readjust, get a bigger fit , um, reschedule, do something different. So I would say do not be afraid of pain. Uh , when it does speak though, you need to start listening. And so tiredness will be , uh, resolvable and rectifiable with rest. Burnout is rectifiable by healing and rescheduling and balancing.

So there's a big difference between sifting and burning out.

I believe you go away every summer for a month or two. Uh, now what are some of those rhythms of rest you've implemented that have made a a difference in in this season of leadership?

So the next morning he called his team players together and held up a football and said, we're gonna start all over again. , this is a football. And , uh, sometimes we as Christians get involved with complexity and complicated ministry and strategy analysis, et cetera . Uh , but really we need to be professionals at the basics. And when you are, God really starts to bring in the rest for you. You don't do it.

A lot of times we put our energy in doing what God should be doing and we slack on what we should be. So one of the things I ne knew I needed to do was get back to just daily devotions to make sure we do a thing called soap, where scripture , observation, application, prayer, and , and we use a life journal every morning. I had to get back to that. The second is to take Sabbaths during the week.

Um , so now I take Monday and Fridays off, so I'm doing this from home and um , cuz it's a on a day, that's my day off. But , uh, I used to work, work five days a week and then preach on the weekends and keep right on going . And I can't do that. It's just too much. So I have to understand that I'm human and frail. I also now schedule , uh, breaks. Just in fact, I was talking to my wife Anna , I said, honey, we're gonna get away five times a year.

I don't care if we just go to a state park down the road and put up a tent, but we've just got to get away. So we were planning that just the other night. And so we gotta schedule our away times , uh, before I have to because there's a big difference between isolation and solitude. And let me give you the definition of that. Isolation is, let's say this is a plus 10 and this is zero on your energy scale, and this is a minus 10.

A lot of times our energy goes down to a minus 10, and then we just gotta get away from everybody. Just gotta get away. I don't wanna see people. So I isolate myself and I go from a negative 10 to a zero, and then I think, whew , I can get back in the ministry now. But you're going in at a zero , on the other hand, solitude is plus 12 and you're down to about an eight and you need to fill up. And so you get away, read some books and joy, you know what fills your tank.

And you then come back at a 12. So that's called solitude. It's a plan to getaway. And Jesus did that. It says, an early , um, a long while before day, Jesus would go to the garden, spend time with his father. He wasn't at a minus 10, he just scheduled that in and he had a time of solitude to make him even stronger. Most of the time, Doug, we don't do solitude very well. We do isolation. Uh , I was, I paddled carbon fiber canoes in the oceans. I do ocean , uh, sports.

And uh, we were doing a race from the island called Molokai to Oahu. And it's over a big , uh, pretty rough channel. And it this time was in a six man canoe. It's a fiberglass canoe. And six of us are paddling. We're racing with a hundred other boats and we carry what we call a camelback. Uh , it's a backpack with water in it and has a tube that comes over here. And the coach said to me, Wayne, every 15 minutes take a drink. And I said, but what if I'm not thirsty?

He said, no, no. Every 15 minutes you are paddling hard , you take a drink. I said, but what if I'm not thirsty? I can keep going and , uh, because I have to grab the tube, put it in my mouth, take a drink and then keep paddling. I'm gonna lose two strokes, three strokes. And he said, every 15 minutes. And I said, why don't I just wait till I'm thirsty? And he said something I'll never forget, he said, Wayne, if you wait until you're thirsty before your drink, it's too late.

Your body has already gone into dehydration and a drink will not redeem or restore that, it will start to deplete your system and you'll have lactic acid build up and you'll be done in an hour. Never forgotten that. And the same is true with isolation or solitude. If you're just waiting for isolation all the time , uh, it's too late, you're already going into spiritual dehydration.

So learn the difference between solitude and isolation and get up there into this portion here and do what Jesus did. It'll keep us healthier.

Sometimes I just go and get ahead, like with my sermon planning, I'll throw it out another two months and think through and, and instead of just putting down titles and making it sound like it's, you know, interesting to people, I really pray over each of them . I just take more time. And when it's done, my heart is so much fuller because I did that. And those retreat days are, well, I tell you , they're worth, they're weighting gold.

And uh, that's the thing of the whole book is basically we have to go through seasons of suffering in order to be influential and to be who God calls us to be. Do we really have to suffer? Especially yeah , no , about this whole principle.

So , uh, Peter says it in this way, he says, and let those who suffer according to the will of God, keep entrusting their souls to a faithful creator and doing what is right. In other words, he's saying, let those who suffer according to the will of God. If he says there's a way to suffer that's according to the will of God, he's probably inferring that there is a way to suffer that's not according to the will of God.

It makes you harder, more contrary, little bit more bitter, maybe prideful, and you don't learn anything from it. It just makes you a little crustier. But I've gotta learn how to suffer according to the will of God and keep entrusting my soul to a faithful creator in doing what is right. So yeah, when you suffer, you grow a lot. And we hate it. We hate it, we hate it. I wish God's goal for my life was convenience and comfort, but it isn't, it's likeness.

And so suffering is sort of like when God is chiseling something out of your life. Like if you're a sculpture. And um , when Michelangelo was sculpturing Peter , uh, he sculptured peter out of this big, huge piece of granite. And when someone said, how did you know Peter was in that rock? Uh, or rather, David was in , sorry, David was in that rock, Michelangelo said , uh, I kind of didn't, I just started chipping away everything that wasn't David.

And sometimes God's gonna chip away stuff that's not Doug and it's not in the image of Christ and it bleeds. But we've given God permission to do that. So however it comes, the chisel might be in the hand of a wife, a pastor , uh, a coworker , an accident, and even a stupid mistake we make. But it's amazing who God puts that chisel in the hands of. And we have to make sure that we are looking at the chisel that God is guiding, not the messenger that's wielding it.

And so, one is to help the person to see the other side of the sifting, to see what's on the other side. Cuz often failure comes right before success. , you know, the darkest moment is right before the, the leaf breaks the ground and becomes a shoot or a plant. And sometimes we think we're done when we're just about to begin. And the devil Doug would love to get you to drop out right before victory is won that gives him the greatest taste of his cunning and his strategy.

And uh, right when is the darkest get ready? Cuz God's about to break through in a wonderful new way in your life. One is to help them to see the overall picture, and the other is find a coach that can handhold them through it. If they're not a veteran, if they're a acolyte or an apprentice , uh, boy, I tell you, the greatest friend you would have during this time, Doug, would be to have someone kind of hand hold you through it as to how you feeling, what's going on.

Here's what you do and, and why. So your faith not fail. I can't do it for you, but you can do it and I'm gonna encourage you all the way. And when you find a brother like that , uh, you found gold.

Because really now at I'm 68 , uh, right now, I basically , uh, teach out of my life experiences cuz I just have hundreds and hundreds of them to draw from at 20 years old, you have theories, you have concepts, you have ideologies. And we hear they're dime a dozen out there. And we don't need to hear another one that's in the name of Jesus to give more certification authority to your voice. Now just, just gain , just serve .

The fastest way to leadership for a 20, 35 year older is go through the servant sentence. Be a servant serve . Uh, Elijah did that with Elijah. We have people that I'm interning that are 20 early thirties. They think they've gained everything they, they need to know about ministry. And uh , you don't need to tell me because uh , you know, this is my area of expertise. And it's like, get real now . You don't have a clue.

And so what happens is God takes them through a sifting, a sifting of themselves. Ha they gotta get that out of there and stay as a servant. Be be grateful. And the second stage is start to , um, experiment with , uh, uh, what God has given to you. Uh, let's say you can do 10 things. You can, you can do this, you can do youth ministry, you can play a guitar, you can sing, you can do this.

But write , put those 10 things on a whiteboard and then ask yourself, what of these 10 things that I can do is God calling me to do with my whole life? Where's my bass camp ? Where's my home bass ? Is it playing the guitar? Does he want me to be a singer and a worship leader like Chris Tomlin for the rest of my life? Uh, or is that just part and parcel of my ministry but not the home base of it? It's not my camp. That's not where I camp. Okay, so what about this? What is a missionary?

I could do it be a missionary, can be a TV person. I could do this. Well, when I wrote all of those things down, I said, you know, where I land is being a shepherd, a pastor, I can do all of these other things, but this is where I'm gonna be. And this is about 30 to 40 years old. You start to really zero in what God's calling is. So then when it comes to pastoring anything with pastoring, preaching, counseling , uh, et cetera , critical thinking, be bold in that area.

These other things here, don't be so bolded. You know , uh, be a little bit more pensive. That stuff is optional, but what God's calling you to do, do it with all your heart and soul because that's what God is going to be watching you in. That's where he is gonna gift you, provide for you not in these other things. Over here. The devil will throw money out over here to get you distracted. And how many young men and young leaders are , uh, distracted and uh , you know, we say it this way, Doug.

What's worse, what would be worse than doing what God's called you to do somewhat poorly is doing what God has not called you to do excellently. Wow . So if it's not what God's called you to do, but you are a stinking good guitar player and singer, but he is really calling you to be a preacher, you better make sure that you do this one well, even if you do this other one poorly and never mix him up.

So that would be in the thirties and then the forties, I would say to them to start settling into , uh, doing their leadership very, very well. Uh , because by this time you're gonna need some refinement, some optimization. You got the basics down , wonderful. Don't lose the basics. But now you need to refine. You need to advance. And then by the time you're 50, start looking for disciples. And even if in the forties you can do that, start discipling discipling.

Because really if you think about it, David's ministry, when he , uh, had Solomon, David's greatest ministry would be in the next generation, not in his , he was to be now a veteran teacher, just like Moses on the hill with Aaron and her on one side, Joshua was in the valley fighting the Amalekites. It was like at about age 50, we need to make sure that we've got our hands lifted more than we are swinging a sword. And so at that point I would say start discipling like crazy.

Pour your life into young disciples and past that baton. I think when that happens, you'll have a full orbed leadership career that I think God would smile at .

Cause if you think about it, you know, in Matthew 13 and the parable of the sewer and the seed, there was four different types of soil. Only one soil produced 30, 60, a hundred fold. So if you look at it, it was a 25% success rate. Three out of four didn't make it. And yet he has a parable. But that's good. It's okay. But that one that made it for fruit, 30, 60, a hundred fold . So I'm gonna keep throwing seed out.

And even if I make mistakes or uh , uh, baton pass doesn't work, I'm gonna keep refining it and keep optimizing it. Just don't ever stop believing in people. Believe the best out of them. And whether or not they succeed, it's not your responsibility. Yours is to believe, disciple and send .

But Wayne, is there anything else that you would leave leaders with today on these two subjects of leading on empty and being sifted before we dive into the lightning round?

It will unbalance the ship, it will make it very, very vulnerable to the waves that bash against your side cuz you're almost tipping at that point. Uh, so keep relationships open. Don't burn bridges. Find a group of , uh, people that, and it could be only two or 3, 4, 5, but that you can have open, serious, ferocious conversation with, and they, with you. It keeps you balanced, keeps you human, keeps your feet on the earth even though we are citizens of heaven.

Uh, the other one was not really a piece of advice, but it was really a, an inspiration moment that kept me going for years. Uh, I remember in Bible college, I went into a classroom and , uh, the professor said, now I'm three, three months old in the Lord. And all I knew was the New Testament and I'm in Bible college. And everyone was like, saints and Cher Andshe in the class except me. And so the professor says, let's all turn to Jeremiah. I guess it was a devotional time.

Let's all turn to Jeremiah. And I remember turning around thinking, who's Jeremiah? And so the kids started laughing at me. One of the kids said, in your bible, stupid in your Bible. And so I thought, man, I don't belong here. I'm not good enough for this college. And well, the next class was taught by a wonderful lady. And she started off by saying, what's your dreams? And one kid would say, worship leader, a pastor, a counselor. And then she would say, do you think Cindy could be a counselor?

And we'd go, yes , Cindy , uh, you go get him , girl. And , uh, Billy, you think he can be a good youth pastor? Oh man, yeah , we're cheering each other on. And, and then she, she , uh, asked me and we had conversation. And then she said, just write your dreams on a piece of paper. So we all did. And the next day , uh, after handing it in, we got it back. And it didn't have a grade on it, but it had in read a note from her.

And this is what the note said, Wayne, I can see that the hand of God is on your life and God is gonna use you in great ways. She said, keep speaking, keep preaching, keep wanting to help people, keep believing in them. And then she ended it with this duck . She said, the kingdom of God has been waiting for you. I must have read that phrase 12 times before I went to bed that night. And , uh, it's stuck in my soul.

You know, it just, every time I wanted to quit , uh, her words rang back to me and , uh, she said, Wayne, the kingdom of God has been waiting for you. And that has been probably one of the greatest inspirational and defining moments that God used this lady to give me as a gift that would sustain me through the valleys of life.

He pastored three churches in eastern Oregon, Christmas Valley, someplace else, and someplace else, I can't remember. So we went to one church at eight o'clock and then we, he drove me to another church at noon after lunch, we drove to a third church and had an evening service. And he was what they call a circuit preacher.

And they still have him today in areas that are very remote and on the way home after , um, being with him all day, and he'd been a pastor for 40 or 50 years, I said, brother Cook. I said , uh, what's one thing you could tell me as a young leader? One thing, if you could sum your whole life up, what would it be? And I was waiting for this grand divine kind of injunction that would come and transform me into some saint or apostle.

And , uh, so he tapped the steering wheel and he said, one thing, can I had a Texas accent. And I said, one thing. He turned to me and he said, you're young . I said, yes, I am, sir. And he said, you are energetic. I said, yes, I am. Well, here it is. Stick with your wife. And that was probably 40 years ago. Never forgotten that.

And so if you lean on them too much and then something happens, it dashes your hopes. On the other hand, people like Billy Graham or Mother Teresa or some of those , uh, from the past John Wesley, all of those, their stories have been written and, you know, the end of their story. And so then you can say, that's kind of like, I'd like to example or model my life after. So the books that I read would be those kinds of books.

And then of late , um, well not of late, but , uh, read , um, a book on a Abraham Lincoln , uh, called Team of Rivals. And , uh, I've enjoyed that. Uh, so there's so many, but those are the ones that I would say, yeah, take a look at those that are more ancient books that , uh, talk about missionaries whose, whose faith did not fail when they were sifted.

And it's the purity of spirit. And even as Peter said to the young women, let it not be in the breeding of care and the outer clothing, but let it be a gentle and quiet spirit in the heart. Uh, in fact, when Doug, when people say, Wayne, what do you look for when you hire people? Uh, character competence, coolness, trend , um, are they good looking , uh, athletic? No , none of those. Uh , what do you look for? I look for the way they think.

Uh, I watch the , how they think, how they solve problems, how they look at the world, how they interpret things that are going on in , uh, current events, what's happening at the White House. And I just like to listen to how people , uh, conjecture about it because it tells me how they think, not only in things of the world, but the things of God.

I said, okay, let me reword that . But , uh, and then I've been with, you know, people like Tony Campolo or James McDonald or you know, some of those, we are in the elephant room with , uh, TD Jakes and, and , uh, Steve Feick . And I'd like to just watch them and their human side. You have to be okay with their human side, otherwise , um, you have a wrong concept of reality. Now everybody has a human side and it's flat.

Even Elijah said, you know, I poured water on the hands of Elijah , uh, cont uh , uh, those that are commentators say that means after he goes to the bathroom behind the bushes, Elijah washes Elijah's hands. Wow . And yet he respected him, yet he loved them , yet he served them . And , uh, to me that is one of the greatest assets of any up and coming leaders, that when you see the flat spots of a veteran leader, does it make you disrespect them more like them less?

Or do you say, we all have a human side and I wanna see everything without condemning, without deprecating. I need to see it all. And didn't Paul say that, that I might know him in Philippians and the power of his resurrection? And it's almost like he stopped and paused and the fellowship of his sufferings being conformed to his death in order that I might attain to the resurrection of life. I thought that's how we need to see leaders from the bottom to the top and respect them still.

And what it does is it actually clears your head so that you're better here. Don't get a avocation that distracts you from ministry. Get one that inspires you from ministry. I ride horses and I , believe it or not, I shoot 45 calibers. I have , uh, it's uh , uh, called mounted shooting. And so we run our horses as fast as they'll run and we shoot 10 targets or 10 balloons and we have five shells in each gun. And it's just black powder, so there's no projectile.

But when I'm riding my horse that fast and he is running 35 miles an hour and I'm trying to shoot things on both sides and running him through a pattern, you can't think of your sermon. You can't think of a sad person that is bugging you, you better not cuz you would be one with the dirt. Uh, and I've flown off my horse several times, broken both legs. So , uh, it helps me to get my mind off of leadership and ministry to clear it, to give it rest.

And then when I'm back in ministry, I'm ready to go again. So get , uh, an avocation that you really, really enjoy and don't, don't go home to heaven till you do it .

Well, hey Lauren , I love you. We believe in you and we say it every episode, but don't quit. Keep leading the world desperately needs your leadership. We'll talk to you next episode.