Amy Nelson: Vindication | Ep 264

Take a look behind the curtain with a real whistleblower, an American patriot. Prepare to embrace the uncomfortable truth, because this program has no time for comforting lies. Here is civil liberties enthusiast, Second Amendment defender, and recovering FBI agent Kyle Serif. Well, hello my friends, and welcome to the Kyle Seraphin Show. Today is Thursday. It's March the 14th and you are here live on rumble.com/kyle Serafin. Where am I? I don't know, probably in

Lewiston ID right now. And I've got a fantastic discussion and a really uplifting story for you guys today. If you have not done so already, make sure that you consider hitting the like button at some point in time. And you can always follow us and subscribe at rumble.com/kyle Serafin. We're going to do our thanks to all the sponsors right up front.

And then we're going to get into a fantastic, exciting and I would say uplifting conversation with my friend and former guest Amy Nelson. Let's do it right now. Let's get started. Here we go. Patriot Coolers, guys, You know how to get them. You know where to go. Go to patriotcoolers.com. Again, it's Patriot Coolers with an s.com. The promo code is Kyle, it's Kyle. Use those four little letters to save 10% on anything that your heart desires. It's going to say Patriot, it's

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I'm bringing on friend of our program and wonderful human being, Amy K Nelson. Amy, welcome back again to the Kyle Serafin Show. Thanks so much for having me, Kyle. I'm so happy to be here. I am thrilled to have you on. Let's give people a little taste of where we started, maybe where it went. This has been a wild couple years. 2024 is the year of victory, it feels like. I think it is. I was looking forward to it and it's here. It's it's vindicating to see this.

It's we're still seeing evil happen all around the world, but decent people are seeing results so much faster than maybe we would have expected. Even though it feels like it's 1000 years, I just look back and two years ago I was working for the FBI today. That's wild. I can't even. I can't even imagine that. All right, give people a taste of your story, if you would. I don't want to set it up because you're the expert.

And then let's get into it. Yeah, so my husband worked for Amazon Web Services for eight years. AWS is a subsidiary of Amazon. Is where the Internet lives, because the Internet lives in big warehouses here on Earth, not actually in the cloud. He left in 2019, started his own real estate development business. He worked in real estate, kind of like helping source land where Amazon might build data centers or where they could work with developers who built data centers.

So he leaves in 2019, starts his own business. All is going well. I'm an entrepreneur. We live in Seattle. We have 4 little girls who are under the age of 6. So we're incredibly busy and happy. And then the pandemic hit and a couple weeks later we got a knock on the door with with by two FBI agents and our lives were kind of shattered into a

million pieces. My husband was told he was the target of a federal criminal investigation being run out of the Eastern District of Virginia, and the allegation was that my husband had committed a crime called private sector honest services fraud, which is depriving your private employer

of your, quote, honest services. And it wasn't really just the FBI coming to ask questions, which I don't think they really often do. They come with a point of view, and they had decided by that point that my husband had committed this crime and that they were going to convince him to plead guilty to those allegations over the next few months. The government seized all of our bank accounts based on these allegations.

In America, there's a practice called civil forfeiture where a local, state and federal governments can take your money based on the suspicion that it is related to a crime. They do not have to charge you with a crime or prove it. And it was. I mean, it was beyond. They seized all of the money out of my husband's business and personal accounts. They seized my bank accounts because we shared money. They seized my father's bank

accounts. My father was two weeks post kidney transplant and my husband and I helped him with his medical bills, so we were transferring money to him. I didn't realize that it happened as well. So it went even beyond your family? It did, and in fact, the most. The craziest thing to me is that I was a lawyer before I started my own company is that the federal government went into the client trust account of the law firm my husband paid to represent him and seized all of

the money he paid his lawyers. I mean, it was done to just wipe us out, like you have no chance to defend yourself, so you need to come in and plead guilty. Let's give everybody just a chance to digest what we just said or what you just shared. And and I also want to let people know if you want to hear this part of the story which goes long form. It's emotional. It brought tears to my eyes.

It's one of the few interviews I've done that that made me really emotional because it's so awful and it's and it's so relatable to me. We've got kids that are roughly the same age and knowing that my former employer was out there just ripping people's lives up, you always know that people get destroyed by investigations. Usually they deserve it.

There's a lot of people doing bad things and you hope we we kind of believe that the the the institutions are out there protecting us. This is your your story has been so close to people like me and Steve friend and Garrett and producer Phil when he started like we just, I don't know, I I I cheered when I found out the end of it, which is it's a this

this does end better, folks. But this is gut wrenching to know that your federal government the money that you paid went after Amy Nelson's family and these agents were being good Germans and they took everything you had and took your family, like all your family's money. How do you defend yourself when that happens?

I mean, so the the government was kind enough at the time, the federal prosecutors, to tell my husband's lawyers, that our family could have some money back to feed our little girls if my husband would plead guilty. And I remember hearing that. And just I I realized at that moment, I think fully that America wasn't what I thought it was. And my mother kept asking, you know, don't they care if your kids can eat? And I said, mom, they is our country and apparent, no, they do not.

The point is they don't want our girls to eat. And then two weeks later there was an FBI raid. And we talked all about that before Kyle. But that was really terrifying. But you know, what we did to survive is we we sold everything. We sold our house, We sold our car, We liquidated retirement, we borrowed money, We raised money, and we worked really hard. My husband and I are both entrepreneurs, and we just like, we just worked, right?

So we said we're gonna just keep making money and do the best we can. We ended up moving in with my sister in California, all six of us with her husband and her two kids. And then we went to Hawaii to live with my husband's family for a year. So we are just dragging little kids all over, you know, the place during the pandemic, moving them from schools, losing

childcare and working. I ended up getting a job with a public tech company, a remote job, and then I got fired on the 5th day because they read an article about the civil forfeiture. Didn't ask me a question, just fired me. It's a liability. And and so I I kind of also want to put some perspective on this. Number one, This is why I have like not sympathy for you. I have empathy for you. I have lived this whole story and that's why that's why it brought me to tears, because

I've also done that. I moved in with family and sold everything. I know exactly what that feeling is and it's a terrible feeling. The second thing is knowing that these people just went out there and did what is easiest, and you can't even blame them. They just read what was happening. They're like, oh man, I don't want to get involved in any of that crap like that. Sounds terrible. It's why we love the story.

And my audience has been following the story with Steve Baker. The Blaze hired him in spite of the federal government coming after him. And I know you've probably seen some. There's something so brave about corporations that are doing that, and that's why this year is so special.

That's why it's so uplifting. I don't want to keep interrupting you, but I I keep wanting to add like these little these little tangent jumps like this story touches so many other these themes that we keep seeing in this in this podcast. I, I think I, I, I agree with you. And I think it is like that is, you know, when the federal government comes for you or when someone with power weaponizes the same thing, because that's what happened here.

You know, Amazon had actually accused my husband, my husband of a crime to the DOJ. They had an intent. They went in, they, they made multiple pitch presentations to the DOJ of like why they should charge my husband with this crime. And they had a concrete financial motivation worth hundreds of millions of dollars because of an action they'd taken. But let's. Go down that if you don't mind,

because here's the thing. We've gained a a significant audience since the last time we've had you on and I want to give some justice that I at least want to whet their appetite to go back and listen to the story. Amazon lobbied the DOJ to take a criminal case. People just handle how crazy this is to crush your family and their their goal was to save $100 million or more.

More than that and and I think two things to start with, like I have to skip to the end before we get to how this all happened do. We I like. I like making people just like, sit there like this. No, but I just want to skip to the point of this, that people, if you people believe me because you believe me, Kyle, because you've lived this story with me. But you know, my husband was never ultimately charged with a crime.

The DOJ returned the money it seized from us, and in total it had seized $7,000,000 from businesses, investors and families. And it returned all of that to like 100 people, which is unheard of when the DOJ takes your money like they're not, they're not apartment to give it back. But more more importantly, you know, my husband wasn't charged, but the DOJ had obtained federal criminal guilty pleas from four men, four other men who Amazon

had accused. And those men had all essentially pled guilty to kind of aiding and abetting my husband and violating his Amazon employment duties last a month. Two months ago now, the Department of Justice vacated those guilty pleas, which, you know, I read in an article when General Flynn's plea was vacated. No former federal prosecutor could cite to another example of that happening at the time. So this investigation ended in like a fireball of mess, right, Because Amazon had manipulated

the government. Essentially, Amazon had broken a contract with a real estate developer and the only way they could do that was if the real estate state developer pled guilty or was convicted of a felony crime. They broke the contract on February 19th, 2020. They had their first meeting with DOJ on February 20th, 2020 to lobby for these criminal charges. I mean, the paper trail is just dumb, right? And the I'll explain why I think that that part of it really

matters. But you know, they spent years trying to lobby for these charges to get out of the liability they face to this real estate developer for the contract they broke. And so they said that the real estate developer played my paid, my husband kickbacks, which did not happen. And they really like, you know, it was this interesting scenario, which I think happens a lot in the in the DOJ that, you know, people with access go

in and say XY or Z happened. And then the prosecutors and the FBI agents work backwards to fit the facts into whatever that person said happened, which is the. Exact opposite of what we want. Like that's not justice. It's not. It's it's ridiculous. And I think that, you know, you know, when we say Amazon lobby the DOJ, Amazon ended up suing my husband in civil court. And it turned out to be the greatest blessing.

It was terrifying when it happened because Amazon sued my husband after the DOJ had seized our bank accounts. So at this point, we're like, OK, not only do we have to fight the DOJ, now we have to fight Jeff Bezos in in federal court. But, you know, I mean, I guess they didn't Google us. We're like a whole family of lawyers. I'm a lawyer. My father in law's a lawyer.

My father's a lawyer. So. So we just, we did it. But, but I think you know, we the reason the civil case matters so much is that we were able to get discovery from Amazon and one of the things we were able to get was all of Amazon's communications with DOJ. And in a normal world, when someone accuses you of a crime, say you're indicted, you don't get to really see the communications between the accuser and the Department of Justice. And we got to see all of them. And they are shocking.

I mean just shocking. First, they're shocking in the scope Amazon met with DOJ over 100 times. You would like to think that it's. Something the a large corporation sent their lawyers to meet with our federal government. The prosecuting end 100 times when they are are not really the party at stake. Theoretically it's a violation of federal law. So the United States is the party. It would be United States versus your your husband. Not DOJI mean not not Amazon.

Correct, there's. No daylight between them, though, it turns out. None. And I think, like, one, one thing just to step back, right when we talk about Access is that Amazon Web Services like hosts all the secrets they secure, the secrets of the FBI, the Department of Defense, the NSA, the CIA in their Internet warehouses, their data centers. Like, I don't think there's a way for the US government at this point to exist without Amazon Web Services. And like that is a big, big

problem. The other side of that is, can Amazon exist without the federal government monies? Because we're talking about what, 10s and 10s of billions per contract? If you look, no one talks about this, but if you look at Amazon stock, right? Because everyone people forget that Amazon was not an incredibly valuable company for a very long time. If you look at Amazon stock, when my husband started in 2012, I think the stock was like $150.00 a share.

In 2013, Amazon got their $10 billion CIA contract, which like I have no idea how they got that contract. Does anyone has anybody ever written about it? And that was it. Was it called Jedi? Was that the name of the system? No, that was a 2019 debacle. OK, that was. Another one, yeah, for first one 2013 and their stock started to soar. It was that that did it. I mean I Amazon. Amazon is a retail store what we what we know and use doesn't

really make much money. But Amazon Web Services is the company's cash cow. It's what made them more valuable than gold. And I think that, you know, yeah, the the relationship is just so intertwined between the government and Amazon. And I think that's why, you know, when Amazon says we want to go accuse someone of the crime, they expect DOJ to, like, say, yes, Sir, what do you need? How can we help you? And that is what happened here.

And that's the stunning and shocking, like, literally it's what happened. Like there are, you know, we there are emails where you know we see the Amazon ask the DOJ to seize my husband's bank accounts and just emailed over my husband's direct deposit information that he gave Amazon as an employee without a subpoena. They just sent it. So Amazon had records. They voluntarily provided it so that they could show DOJ what the target. And then they told DOJ the

priorities. I remember you sharing some of those like the actual script there. And it was like, these are our priorities. This is what we want you to do. And then DOJ was like, yeah, I got it, OK, 100%. Who was the attorney that represented Amazon going over there? Because I think that's also a good, fun part of the story for

people. Yeah. So the attorney that represented Amazon is a man named Patrick Stokes. He had been a former federal prosecutor executor in the Eastern District of Virginia for a very long time, and he was seeking criminal charges in the Eastern District of Virginia. He's now works in private practice for a big law firm in Gibson Dunn that represents Facebook and Apple and Amazon, all of them.

And he, you know, he went and lobbied his former colleagues, as far as I can tell from the paper record I've seen. Amazon hired Patrick Stokes to do this. And like you can't tell me that relationship doesn't matter. Or they could have used any of the thousands of other lawyers they've used. You know, previously they had, they hired Patrick Stokes and he quite literally phoned the US Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, who he

used to be a lawyer with at DOJ. His name was Terwilliger. And then they roped in at the time, the deputy criminal Chief, Jessica Aber, who is now the US Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. And they just off to the races, you know, it's it's wild. I think, you know, I am a lawyer and I'm also a researcher. I'm an investigator at heart.

And the one thing that I know to be true, because I used to also be very involved in politics, is that relationships matter deeply and you want to figure out who the players are. And I did that very early on. And I was like, holy shit, this is nuts. Like all these people know each other. And they work together. And it's just, but like if you didn't know the system and you didn't know to do this, like you wouldn't have any idea. I mean, there's a very crazy part of the story, Kyle, that I

don't think I've even told you. One of Amazon's other targets was a man named Casey Kirschner, and he, he had no money after DOJ wiped him out. And he was the special Agent Josh Josh Huckel who was the FBI agent that worked on this, which is public information. He called Casey and said, I can get you a public defender because they wanted Casey to have a lawyer, because they wanted him to plead guilty, They. Wanted to stand up. Yeah, yeah, You need a lawyer to to navigate that process.

In case he did not plead guilty, of course. And the public defender sent an e-mail out to private attorneys saying I'm a public defender. I have this case in the Eastern District of Virginia. I need help pro bono, help free legal help. Private lawyers often do that. One lawyer responded, and his name was Fry Wernick, and he worked with a firm called Benson and Elkins in Washington, DC, smaller office of of a big law firm.

Amazon's general counsel for ethics and compliance used through Omar used to work at that Washington, DC office of Vincent and Elkins, and the lawyer who applied, Fry Warnick, used to work for Patrick Stokes at the Department of Justice. Amazon's new lawyer, Fry Warnick, did not disclose that to Casey at all. And Fry Warnick said that he's had one phone call with Casey and he said you have no defenses, you have to plead guilty. Whoa, Let's just breathe on that.

The the, the amount of conflict of interest and corruption that has existed across the entire spectrum of your case is actually really staggering to me. The thing that I think is most powerful about your story from my audience who probably did not or does not or has not voted the way that you did and didn't think about the world that that

that you see, that we see. Look, I love, I hate your story because it just, it destroys the credibility of the thing that people who work for the government have done. They've sold themselves out for a government pension. And all the people that said yes, in your situation, that should have looked at it and been like, Nah, this is bullshit. I'm not going to do it. I refuse that, that that was an option along the way. That could have been a DOJ. Finally, someone said it.

And I I don't know exactly who said it, but somebody did, and I applaud them. But it was far too late. Far too late. The the overwhelming smackdown that that that exists when the the judge vacate is vacates perfectly good guilty pleas that were you know negotiated by attorneys is incredible as you said no precedent. This is more than one. This is not just General Flynn and a political this is little people who get squashed by the government on the regular basis. This is what they do.

Let's talk about your political history where you came from like because this disrupted your faith in the same way it disrupted mine. We came from different angles. We all have a common enemy. The common enemy is big business and big government. Saying human beings that that are supposed to be the ones that are served don't matter. I. Think yeah, I I mean I yeah, I agree And I, you know, yes, Kyle. I spent my entire life as a a card carrying Democrat.

Like I believed in the Democratic Party the way a lot of people believe in a faith or a religion and I also have my faith. But I I believed in it deeply. I as a child, I, you know I spent time in union halls. I was knocking on doors. I was a bundler for Barack Obama. I worked on congressional races for Democratic candidates. Like I I believed, you know, I I believed that the government was. And the reason I was a Democrat is that I wanted to help people

who couldn't help themselves. I believe that the Democratic Party was was very good for children. It was good for the elderly. It was good for, you know, people who who who had less than less than I did. Isn't that the historical position that the Democrats tried to stake out anyway, though? I mean, I don't think that was. Yeah, I mean, it was. I think we. Used to disagree about like the reason or or the methods at which we help people.

But I don't think conservatives or Republicans, and I'm not a Republican either, so it doesn't matter. But like Republicans didn't say, well, those people don't matter or they just said, well, there's a better way to handle it, which is private. You guys say that the better way to handle it is public. That's a policy disagreement. Yeah, it is a policy and and that's what I have learned through all of this, right. And I think there's like so much

power in that, is it? Most of us want the same things, right? It's just how do we get there? And then I now believe that just the media and the government tries to distract us from actual solutions with a bunch of BS so that they can actually serve the interests of the people they're interested in serving, which are billionaires and big corporations. So. But like it's. And and you've used the term that I've not heard anyone else use.

And I continue to. I'll credit you every time I do it. But like, we're talking about an oligarchy. Yeah, we live in an oligarchy. Like it's dumb to say otherwise. We live in an oligarchy because, you know, we live in a pay to play system. We, our politicians, need the political donations to win. They spend an enormous amount of the time they are with that we are paying them to govern. They spend that that time out raising money that is every politician.

And so you know they serve the interests of the people and companies that donate them the most money and like of course they do. That makes sense right? Like they're they're benefactors and and I mean I think also really importantly, aside from our dumb campaign finance laws which have created an oligarchy, you know, we allow our politicians to inside trade, which I just get angrier and angrier about. Like everybody is a multi millionaire in Congress and it's and they didn't go there as

multi millionaires. And I am so angry about it because it's just it's ridiculous like they go there to get rich and then they get out and then they lobby and it makes no sense and nobody's helping anybody. Like we have no practical solutions and now the government doesn't even govern like no party. Like what the this the Congress has done in the past few years is like basically nothing, right? Except fight and then, yeah. Might be the best thing

considering how bad they are. I mean, it's true, but like it's it. It is true on the one hand and on the other hand, like you look back to the government that existed when we were kids, you know, in the 80s. Like the parties talked, they negotiated, they got things done and it just operated a lot better than it does now. And I don't want to keep paying for them. And it's just, it's ridiculous. It's so upsetting. And, you know, I think we just allow it.

And then and then we fight culture wars, some of which are important, some of which I think are a big distraction from the fact that like, you know, we yeah anyway. And then you look at our tax. I could go. I'm not. I'm not kind to people that dress up like women because I love women. I think women are really important.

I'm raising several little ones and and I know you are too, and so we may not even agree on that position, but I don't think that trainings are the biggest danger to my children, I. Don't, I don't think about it a lot like, I mean, I certainly there I like and I think there's like. I mean it it goes like you could go on a whole rabbit hole there because. I do think it's distractionary and and and when you said that the first time I was like, I'm

100% on board with that. The other thing is, is since that time I've actually had some guy, and he's a guy with like earrings and a gauge nose ring and all the other weird things that people do when they're confused about what to do with their life. I don't hate this guy, by the way, But he took over and he was. He's teaching or he's teaching the class that my girls were in.

I pulled him out of a YMCA gymnastics class because you had three beautiful little girls and some of them have piercings and they have little tattoos, whatever. But they're like little girly girls and they're teaching little girly girls how to do gymnastics. It's a hands on thing. You know, they don't know how to do back bends. They don't know how to do forward rolls. So they're doing that. And then you got some dude in there who's confused.

That same guy in in our childhood in the 90s would have been like, he would have been wearing black lipstick and he would have had a really fat girlfriend wearing leather from Spencer's gifts. He would have, I just know what he would have looked like. And then and then and then if you had been in the early 2000s when I was in college, like he would have been like with some really gay looking guy and they would have worn little tiny matching outfits and they would

have been obnoxious then. And now he's wearing whatever he's wearing, sweatpants with glitter and nose rings and tattoos behind his ear. He's that guy. He's an empty vessel. That's like, he's confused. So I don't hate him. I hate that the culture did that to him. But he's not my enemy and and it's a that's a distraction. I just went like, OK, you don't get to teach my kids now. I can't go to the YMCA. That sucks. I gotta go find like a cheer

camp or something like. It's yeah, when I think they're like, I mean, I think there are things like there are definitely important conversations to be had. Like I have four daughters. Do I want people who have male genetics to be competing against them when they're in 6th and 7th grade in sports? I don't. I don't think it's fair like, you know, but like, but and that's a conversation that should it come into my life, I will. I will think about it and deal

with it, but. Like, yeah, when it comes to you, you'll figure it out because it's 'cause you're well. Here's the other thing. You have to have good priorities. Your priorities are family, your kids. We've seen this over the last couple years if we've been watching your story. So yeah, you'll handle it. I I handle it too. It's like, and I just don't go to the YMCA. Oh well. Meanwhile, Jeff Bezos.

Meanwhile, Jeff Bezos is over here not paying taxes and making billions of dollars off of all of us and weaponizing the Department of Justice. And it's just, you know, and The thing is so many people are when my husband, you know, ultimately the reason I believe the DOJ vacated the guilty pleas is that Amazon's lawyers just lied about Amazon's employment duties.

And there's a whole problem with the statute that my husband was accused under because it essentially allows a company to say what is a crime, which isn't how criminal law is supposed to work. But like, they, they really quite literally lied about what my husband's employment duties

were. And the judge in the civil case that Amazon filed ruled that he said that this isn't these aren't what Carl Nelson's employment duties are at all And the federal criminal guilty pleas said the false employment duties and so but OK so great. So we we were able to fight. We were able to a have the constitution to do it which is something else. Right. I mean that is like I could throw up. There were a lot of days I wanted to throw up.

There were days I didn't know I could get out of bed because it was so terrifying for so many years for 13179 days and but like so there's the constitution for it and the constitution of like the people that love you. Right. Like we put our parents through hell. We didn't. The government did. Our elderly parents, you know, our our family members like it.

You know, my 97 year old grandmother is praying the rosary every day, like hoping that my husband doesn't go to prison for something he didn't do. So I think that's. That's third world stuff. That's Banana Republic. One of the one of the things, I don't know if I I had this catch phrase in my head at the time

that we spoke last. But one of the things that I've gone out there, and I've said it a lot now, is that the the country that I grew up in would invade the country that I live in. I've seen you say that. I like it. Here's the thing. Arresting journalists, out weaponizing government to go after political opponents, financial opponents, people who are inconvenient to the big businesses. Like that's literally what the Banana Republic is. The Banana Republic is run by a company.

The company says, hey, these are the problems, go crush that revolution. They're screwing up our workers and they did that to you. They they Banana Republic themselves. Like we didn't make them do this. No. Well, The thing is like, it's not just us. If you take just solely the example of Amazon, over 75 Americans have been indicted for federal Amazon crimes in the past five years. And it's like, what?

Wait, what? Like why are we using our taxpayer resources to like criminally regulate Jeff Bezos marketplace so that Amazon has gotten the DOJ to indict third party sellers, vendors, seller consultants, employees like landlords, business partners. They're like we don't like these people. We're gonna crush them. And you know, there's, you know, I think people do a good job when they don't want to believe someone of just de platforming

them or delegitimizing them. And I don't know Michael Sanchez who's Lauren Sanchez's brother? Michael Lawrence Sanchez's Jeff Bezos girl fiance. Right. But when under the belt picks of Jeff Bezos for leaks to the Inquirer did. You say under the. Belt. Yeah, under the belt. I don't want you know. Pantsless. Yeah. Cancels pictures and Bezos for like leak to The Enquirer and Michael Sanchez, Lauren's brother got blamed for it and I don't know what happened.

I know nothing. But you know Michael Sanchez and copies me on a lot of interesting things and he because I've, I've been fighting publicly against Bezos and Amazon anyway. He has, you know, he's sent, he has this recording of Jeff Bezos where Jeff Bezos talks about how he might sue the National Enquirer just to bankrupt them for fun. And, you know, that's the kind of personality that we're dealing with, right? As somebody who's like, I will just crush you through the legal

system. And when the person with that personality has access to the FBI and the DOJ, like, it's pretty terrifying. That's movie villain type stuff though. We literally see those in 80s movies that we used to be like this is what real evil looks like. People who can really just go, I'm going to call it, you know, And then we saw like, it's it's Gotham City. It's it's all of the worst sort of cartoonish corruption. It is. I mean, like in my mind, I think of Jeff Bezos, like Lex Luthor,

right, with the ball. Like, you know, it's just, yeah. And I think that one thing I would. They would sue you for that. One thing I think is happening in 2024 to talk about the year is that Americans of all persuasions are starting to say things or see, like Jeff Bezos isn't our hero, right? He's not the hero of this American story. Like his dad gave him hundred, like, you know, half $1,000,000 to start Amazon. And he did. And Amazon is an arbitrage play.

Like it's, you know, like Amazon makes money on kickbacks from people who sell on his platform and from the government and then they don't pay taxes. It's not, it's not a gritty, wonderful American story. And and it destroyed thousands of small businesses. I mean, it just wiped them out.

It's not the riveter toe. You know, it's not like it's like my start up. Yeah, you know, so it is like you you just, and I think that people are starting to realize that these billionaires are not our friends and they don't care for us and they actually don't want us to have the information we need. They don't want us to be successful. You know, some, some people. You know, my husband was incredibly successful when he went out on real estate and started his own real estate

development company. And you know, for Amazon to come after him, it was like, no, no, you can only take the salary we'll give you once you want to go off and build your own company. Nope, no more slots available for entrepreneurship in America. Like, you're done. I mean it just it makes no sense. So this is the thing. And and This is why I think there, there's such a big divide in this country between, like rural and urban areas. And follow me on this, if this

makes sense to you. The reason why people are so unhappy when they live in cities and why they're so cutthroat is because the pie's already been divided and you're fighting over whatever leftover slices are. That's an inherently sort of left wing sort of position to be in that there needs to be fairness. We need government. We actually do need government when there's a ton of people.

And that's why people in the rural areas are like, no, no, there's tons of, like, America, Have you been to America? There's lots of it. And if you only stay in the place where the pie has already been divided and you're fighting over scraps, then you want more government to be fair. It doesn't turn out to be fair, but that's what you want. And then if you're out there in the world where you're like, no, no, no, we own a ton of land. I used to go shoot on on USA

property. If you look on the maps of The Who owns the plat, it says property of the United States of America, like all of us own that land and you can do all kinds of stuff. You can camp on it. There's no rules. You just go out there and put your RV and then you just stay there if you want. Yeah, it's like I think people, a lot of people want to be told what to do because it makes them feel safer. But the point is if someone tells you what to do, someone

else is making up the rules. And like, the rules are always changing and you don't know what they are. And like, just go, go make go live by what you think is right, Right. And. And yeah. And I think, yeah, I don't know. It's I I hear what you're saying. I think it makes a lot of sense. Like, and I have lived in New York and Seattle and then I have lived in more rural places. And I've spent a lot of time like northern Minnesota where there's no one, no one's up there.

And it's beautiful. And people are much nicer to each other because they're not fighting. They don't. They're not looking for that thing. So there was this Joe Rogan podcast I listened to and I can't remember the guy's name and I'm, I'm sorry, I can't give him credit for the idea. But essentially, he said there are two basic types of societies that exist. One is agrarian and one of them is herding. Have you heard this before? I have heard it before and we are mostly in a herding society

at this point. Which means that we are very tribalistic and that we are very punitive and we're really aggressive. But the reason that Western society exists is because we invented agriculture. And then when you have that physical land barrier, you need a government to come in because it's the one that's the third party. It doesn't care who's right or

wrong. It just says you've outsourced justice to me and now I'm going to make sure that you haven't moved the marker stones or stolen this. But if it's about like things that we can't track, we're all mad about that. We all feel like we're being conned anyway. The the idea is, is that people who actually live in rural societies tend to be like, OK with law and order because it's further removed. It's not in their business. It's disinterested.

We want a we want a government that's not interested. Our government is interested, though. Oh my God, they're so interested. And I think, like I was thinking about this the other day because I was talking with somebody, you know, and with with our society and with people, with businesses like infinite, like infinite growth is not possible. Like at a certain point a business can't grow anymore or we'll kill ourselves trying to make it grow and working people to the to the bone.

And I was thinking about that in a way. And I was thinking about the DOJ and the FBI and, you know, when it, when the FBI started, way back when in the, like, the precursor in the 20s, thirties, you know, it was never meant to be this massive organization, right?

And and now it is. And like, not only, I think is an organization that tries to make itself necessary by doing more and more and more and more and putting more people in prison for wild things, right, that like 100 years ago we would have been like, wait, what? Like, that's not a crime. And but, you know, they're so punitive and they're so, like, they just want to be necessary and they want to keep growing. And I'm like, why does the DOJ keep needing to grow bigger and bigger? Why?

Right. Like, what is the purpose of that? Just to be a hammer? Like, is the world a nail, I guess. DOJDOJ is government like all governments, all good government agencies. Growth is the goal. It exists because it's always existed and and you've you've probably seen this you've driven through Oregon, right. They they won't let you pump your gas there, correct? Yeah, correct. And I asked a guy in Jersey one time who did the same thing and it blew my mind.

I was like, wait, what? So, But I know they do it in Oregon as well. There's a couple of states where you can't pump your own gas. I said, why do you need to pump the gas when I could do it now? By the way, that used to be the standard in like the 50s and 60s and 70s people actually, they had self-serve and then they had, you know, full serve, which I remember the end of that, which is weird. Yeah, I did too. We were. We were little kids. We saw like the end of some of

these things. That's the benefit of that analog childhood. We fell all the time before people were on their phones or the Internet. Beautiful. Yeah, it really was. He was so much better, this guy. I said, why do why do people need to pump my gas if I can do it better or if I can do it for myself? And he said people need jobs. That's why the DOJ has to exist. People need jobs. That's not a good reason. Dumb like that is not a reason

for something to exist. Like, I actually really liked Vivek Ramaswamy's proposal about the FBI. Because one of the things like when you have big corporations or just powerful people who can who can get access to DOJ and have them, you know, hunt people down it. One of the issues is that like, you know, Amazon went and said all these things to DOJ for. Here's a here's a simple example. They said that they had overpaid inflated prices for land by like 10s of millions of dollars.

And the FBI and the DOJ and the prosecutors were like, OK, OK, thanks Amazon for telling us that they didn't check. They didn't like, check what land prices were and they didn't check comparisons like this is all public information on Google and they just didn't check it. They just took what Amazon said. And they don't know that, like, land that can be used for data centers is far more valuable than land that can't be. You know, it's like, because it's like gold.

It's like gold land anyway. And so one of the things about the FBI is like you're asking FBI agents to become like experts in these in these different fields that they're tasked with investigating. And in some instances I think that's OK, but in a lot it's not and. They're not experts. Let's just go. Let me just go on record and dispel anybody's idea. You know, people get assigned. The old joke at the FBI Academy is how do you get assigned to that field office and that

particular task. And the joke is that there's drunk monkeys throwing darts at a board. They took a guy like me. My background was paramedic military. I'd done outside sales. They're like Chinese counterintelligence. That's where you're going to fit. And I'm like, like, I don't speak Chinese. I don't, I don't care about Chinese.

I'm not interested. Well, it's like this is like agent, agent, Huckel said to someone once they, the FBI agent on the case, like someone had talked about like in commercial real estate, there are like rebates and referral fees that people could call kickbacks, right? Like, this is like, they're perfectly legal.

And Huckel said to somebody, Well, I asked my brother-in-law, who's a broker, and he said, no, I'm like, oh, so you OK, so you're you asked your brother-in-law, so OK, send my husband to prison because your brother-in-law who like, what Bob. Bob just said Nope, that's not a thing. Yeah. I asked the guy. What? We're doing, yeah. I went down to the diner and I was like, hey, can you do this thing? And he was like, Nah, so that was it. That's the that's the worst example.

But, I mean, that's exactly how it works. My buddy, who spoke fluent Russian and lived first in Siberia for two years, was sent to the middle of nowhere to work on Indian crimes. That makes no sense. No, it makes no sense. It's like they have resources, they have accountants, they have capabilities. They took producer Phil, who has a background in accounting and

they made him an auditor. That actually makes some sense, except the auditor is supposed to be like a retirement gig and nobody wanted to do it. So rather than take people who have the most energy and are most willing to go out and learn new things and do the most aggressive type stuff, no, they don't take experts in the field and have them do it. So your case is just another example of mediocracy masquerading as prestigious and competent. And and it's it's incredibly dangerous.

It turns out to actually have real think about if your family wasn't made of lawyers. Think about if your family didn't have the ability to to stick through this and have that courage of conviction, you would just get crushed. Your husband would plead. Yeah, yeah. Or or he we he would have been indicted and then we lost the trial. Because once you get indicted, the chances of like it's it's much harder. You're not winning an E You were an EDVA, correct?

Yeah, which is like. One of the top three soft seats for government to go bring prosecution. It's DC. It's EDVA. It's Southern District of New York. You're losing. Yeah, I mean, you're just like. I mean, you're. Surrounded by government people. Yeah, and the jurors are former government people and they're like, well. Everybody.

And the and the the adage is like, Oh, well, the FBII mean, if I could give you a penny for every time I've heard the FBI just doesn't show up at your house if you haven't done something wrong. And I'm like, yes, they do. I guess they do with Amazon, sun sun. Like, I just, I mean, I laugh about it now, but it was the most painful experience. And, you know, and I think, like, we all have heard, you've heard my story a lot, you know, and someday my husband will tell his story.

But, like, I can't imagine being my husband. I can't imagine living through what he survived. I mean, he was the one who had to think about being taken away from his four little girls. Yeah, he's got an open invite here anytime. He's always got, you know, whatever platform we have is his too. Yeah, he's a he's incredibly strong, incredibly strong.

So are all of the other men that fought, you know, And then and the other thing is, it's just AI think, you know, I saw yesterday that Senator Menendez, who's indicted for honest services fraud, same crime, same crime. He's a Democratic senator. He's been indicted in New Jersey and I think one of the reasons DOJ indicted him is because they're going after Trump and they needed to like pretend they're being balanced or something. I don't like, I I now look at

all of this. I'm like this is a game. It's a game right, with people's lives. And he, Senator Menendez was indicted and one of the the the person who allegedly paid him bribes. One of those people has pled guilty and people are like, well now now Menendez is going down. And I'm like I wish people understood that it is like a game of checkers and that a lot of people plead guilty even though they believe they

committed no crime. Because if it's like a group of people being accused, the prosecutors will be like, well if you plead guilty you'll get you'll get the best deal, right. We'll we'll we'll send you to prison. We won't send you to prison or you know you won't have to forfeit millions of dollars or you know it's it's a game.

Right. And, like, and they make things up. And I I there's, you know, lots happened that I can't say publicly yet, but I can say publicly that I received a phone call out of the blue a few weeks ago from one of the people central to Amazon's allegations that was really revealing about how this process worked and the manipulation and the corruption in it. And that story will eventually be told. But it it it's AI think there's a lot of coercive plea

bargaining. And a lot of people are in prison because, you know, they just get stuck in this game, like the simulation, this video game. You used to have utter faith in the government being the solution for this stuff. You've obviously moved from there. Where? Where has it taken you? I mean, where has it taken me like? Well, I can say it's taken me into my family and my faith a lot more and that like that is what I hold to be hold dear and like know that there's the most

solid foundation in all of that. But I just like, I'm very skeptical of the government of both parties, of the of the entire government because I think that it exists to protect power not to protect its people. And we have just lost our way. It's. Like an ice cream cone, right? It it has a tongue and it has ice cream, so it licks. And it gives you I, I look at through our our, our history of a different lens. Like I look at Ruby Ridge.

I grew up not knowing a lot about Ruby Ridge but thinking that Randy Reaver Weaver was like some cuckoo guy right out out there in the woods who got his wife killed. Well, that's not true. Like, I mean that's a hot like, that's not true. And it's shocking to me. Like the narratives that we're told like Randy Weaver was a guy minding his own business and like you know like the whole sawed off shotgun all, it's just dumb.

Like people lost their lives over this dumb thing when like why can't Randy Weaver just live his life? Why can't his family live off grid? Why can't they, you know? Who's he a threat to having a shotgun that's three inches shorter, by the way? Nobody. And I'm pretty sure they're not going into Chicago and the city and having standoffs with all the people there with illegal guns. You know that listening to you say that in my head, I've got that picture of God. Who is it?

It's it's a. It's like a a GIF or a GIF. Yeah, I get a. GIF and it and it's oh who's who's the guy that's in that that now I'm doing my wife's thing where I can't remember the name I I hate this by the way he's he's going like he's going like yes. Yeah. I should say it's like what is that guy's name who he was in Good as it gets. You know what I'm talking about. Anyway, I heard. You're talking about I can't remember who that. It it's a famous actor just going like yes, you're red.

Yes, it's Nicholson. Yeah. Yeah. And he's doing his classic thing where he's like, yeah, he's like look all crazy and and it's like you're coming down the rabbit hole where all the the red pillars are. I know, but but I don't think you and I end up in the same place where a lot of people do. Yeah, my. Answer isn't go ahead. I want to know your answer where do? You end up people you want to do in.

The place that I stand right now is turn back to all the people I was aligned with before and say you're being lied to. And it doesn't mean you have to go be in a different political party. It doesn't mean you don't have to, like, kind of let go of your core beliefs about the world and what you think is right. But like, you're being lied to. Stop just swallowing it because it's bullshit. And like you, you play into it. You give them more and more and

more power. It's like nobody on the left will look at January 6th, even to the point, if you're talking about protesters who stood outside the Capitol, who did not go in, who did not walk into the Capitol, who were there because they supported Trump, because they had questions, you know, which is like, that's what that's what our country encourages, right? Like. That's literally the protected speech that we have.

Right. And so and and and you can't engage with a lot of people on that question of like why are these people being put in federal prison for years. And and like they're just like, Nope, not having that conversation. Like the narrative is that like, these people are evil and they're bad and they're trying to overthrow the government in a revolution, which is like were they like, you know it's like and but like no. Like, you know it's like you're like what?

And so you know, I just like and I'm, I'm talking about people outside the capital, right. Like, I'm not going to like walk into the minefield, but I'm just talking to people. Like, anyway, it's just it's you can't have a conversation with people because they're just like these are the media narratives and I'm going to accept them and I'm going to give this power and it takes away all the power that we have as people. Take take this one for a second Ready Randy Weaver.

I'll I I agree with you. Not a problem in the way that, you know, he's been villainized on one side, he's been lionized on the other side. He may have been white supremacist, by the way. I don't know. I know he was a I. Don't even know. But like, that was a claim lawyer and my I was the 1st Amendment lawyer and the guy that I went to work for Floyd Abrams, like a lion of the 1st Amendment the first day I went

to work for him, he said. Here's the thing I got to know, are you going to be willing to defend the KK KS voice as much as you are? The ACL use? It's like 'cause if you can't, you can't work for me. Yep, that's AOG liberal position that is currently a white ring, a right wing extremist position now allegedly because our Overton window has shifted so dramatically in those years, in your career, in your career time as a professional.

Yeah. Like we're talking about as adults, Yeah. And it, yeah, it's just it's so disturbing. So hear me out though. If we agree that Amy Nelsey Nelson Amy Nelson and Co Nelson family was unjustly persecuted and prosecuted by DOJ because of corporatism, because of oligarchy, because of all these evil things and you say those are not legit prosecutions. And then I also go Bob Menendez has been hounded by DOJ. Is he corrupt? Maybe, I don't know.

I also don't trust where that where that allegation comes from. Now he might be very corrupt. That's real possible people having gold bars and jackets. That's kind of weird. I can. I can say that in my experience, I don't know anybody that does that. That doesn't mean that you're wrong. You're allowed to put gold bars and jackets. Yeah, you're allowed to. There's all kinds of weird things that I do. I stash guns all over my house. There's places that are safe

that I know about. That's my thing. Other people think that might be crazy. It turns out, America, you're allowed to do that. So if you're going to undermine, and this is the problem, we this is the 0 sum game, This is the no piece of the pie to share thing that I think that you and I both see very clearly. Just because we want to agree with it doesn't mean that it's true. And just if you're going to say that DOJ does illegitimate things, all of it should be in

question. If you're going to say that drug convictions are evil and there's mass incarceration, which I don't know if you sit there anymore or not, but let's say that that's the case that you hold. If you say the federal government comes in and wrongly goes after a bunch of black people and says and throws them in prison and uses all the apparatus to crush these people who have no money, you can't turn around and say, but it's also really good at getting these really evil Trump

protesters. You got to just say that if it's evil, it's evil and all of it is suspect. And then we take them case by case. And that's what I that's where I stand, right? Like all of the people. And like we need to, like we need to question everything. Like what I I started down this path and stopped. But like, one thing I like that Vivek Ramaswamy had suggested was that we dismantle the FBI and then we put those agents into other agencies where they

would fit, right? Like if it's financial crimes, have the SEC deal with that or the Department of Treasury. If it's, you know, like if it's the border, like if it's the Homeland Security, I mean, we have the whole Homeland Security have them do. I hate Homeland Security. I hope that I do. I do too. I think it's ridiculous but like, but I think it's an interesting proposition right of like you know take it out of the of the put put it in other agencies that already exist.

But I mean listen I do. I do stand. You know I now think that everything the DOJ does is suspect. I don't, you know, I, I and I look at like, look what they did in our case where Amazon walked in, was able to get all these meetings and try to put all these people in prison. They destroyed businesses, destroyed families. And then the Olympic gymnasts go in and like dozens of them and say Larry Nasser raped us and they're like and the FBI is like, eh, because do children

and women matter? No property matters. Property and billionaires matter. Do you know the worst thing is that the special agent in charge of that field office, who supposedly personally was going to handle it, ended up getting a job with US Olympic Committee. Which is exactly how it works. I know that. And I was like, I'm surprised. I don't know if you've watched Dopesick or like, it's about the opioid epidemic. And the guy, this isn't just DOJ, right?

The guy at the FDA who ended up, like, approving this very bizarre pain designation for Sackler's drugs. He went and worked for Purdue Pharma. For the Sacklers. Like, you know, it's like he left and wouldn't work for them. Like it's just on. The surface dumb. You don't even have to go digging, you can just pick them up off the top of the the ground. Well, and this is the point, like at the end of the day, where I am too with DOJ is, is this. And I will stand on this hill

for the rest of my life. The Department of Justice is fully aware that it was lied to by Amazon's lawyers. Whether that falls on the feet of Gibson Dunn or Amazon's lawyers, you see Omar, Matt Jordan, Dennis Wallace, I don't know. I don't care. I don't know who lied. Someone lied. The Department of Justice knows this.

The federal judges know this. This is true, and nobody at the DOJ will do one single thing to hold accountable the people that lied to it, that forced it to waste hundreds of thousands of taxpayer hours in dollars that made a mockery of the system. No one will hold them accountable. And if that's and. There's no one who can. But it's like, but I believe someone at DOJ could say we should there are crimes, they could be charged. With yeah, of course. But they're not.

What I'm saying is there's no one outside of DOJ that actually has oversight on it. So it's the old who watches the watchers argument There's no one that can do it. There's no independence. You know, this is the this is the insane impotency and and that that that rage scream that people have and I see on the political left too.

Look, there's a lot of injustice in the world and we hate it, But there's no easy answer to it and it's not use the like well, we just need to capture the government and use it for our weaponized purpose. That's the opposite of what Americans do well. I know. And people are like, well, people like my family's story, a lot of people will be like, well, we don't care about these rich people problems. Like, first of all, my husband

and I worked very hard. We paid our way through like we were lucky enough to have our parents pay for college. We both paid for grad school. We worked incredibly hard. We built great careers. They were taken from us. And we haven't worked our way back through scratch and claw and we're like that. But like, here's what I say. Don't care about the problems. You know, that that people in

the upper middle class have. But what I'll tell you is this Civil forfeiture, which was a big part of our problem, primarily impacts people that don't look like me. It impacts black people, brown people, immigrants. And so, like, if you want to change that, you should really amplify my story, right? Because this is a great and easy story to understand about the abuse of civil forfeiture. But like, nobody wants, nobody wants to do it because it's

terrifying to them. I've been told by reporters that the reason, one of the reasons our story hasn't been like on the front page of a lot of newspapers is because it's so clear that DOJ was weaponized. And they don't want to give credence to Donald J Trump's arguments that the DOJ can be weaponized. And unlike then once again our then our media is like the whole thing is dumb. They're all our enemy. No, they're all our enemy. All right. You open the door for the the

Trump stuff. I want to talk some of it because anybody who watch the podcast know I I actually have people comment. In fact today's show they they comment. They're like why do you need to say that you're he's not your favorite? It's like because he's not my favorite and I'm honest and I don't care if you don't, if he's your favorite, he's allowed to be your favorite. I'm not saying you're wrong. You could have an opinion. Guess what? And I do. And I'm very opinionated.

I'm an opinionated guy. I'm super judgy, too. My wife keeps telling me she is, too. That's why we get along. You know, we, we'll just sit out there in our front window and watch people. Like, what are they doing over there? You know, like the classic thing that you get to do when you're married. You get to have a partner in judging other people. You're nice to them, but you're like, what are what are they all about? Like, why do they make, why do they drive a Tesla?

Why do they have that stupid Mercedes out there that they've already wrecked? You know, that kind of stuff? So we see Donald Trump doing his thing. I don't think you were a Trump voter in 2016. Is that correct? No, I was. Not OK. I wasn't either. But not because I hated Trump. I just. I also hated Hillary. I just saw them both. And I was like, these people are both awful. It made me laugh that he won. I see Donald Trump do that now. You've seen the DOJ come after you.

You've seen DOJ really tip his hand and then also apparently cooperate with the state or the you know Fonny Wills prosecution out there in Fulton County. You've got Alvin Bragg up in New York you see two different federal district where he's indicted in. Does that change your opinion based on what you've had go your whole family go through about him as a person or these these cases?

I think that Trump has been targeted from the minute he won by the Department of Justice probably by the ciai mean he's been targeted like, right. Like I I think he's been targeted and I think that happens to people. And it really happened to him. And I I think it's bananas what

DOJ is doing to Trump right now. I think it was really stupid politically for them to do it because it just like added to the legend because they just can't comprehend that people would really like Trump and a lot of people really do. Have you met those people like Trump? Yeah, lots of people. I mean, I live in Ohio, like half my family is deeply Republican, right? Like it always has. Been I'm really saying that is because there are people that like Trump and we've met them,

yeah. Well, I know. And people like, like, you're like my friends, some of my friends in Seattle and New York, like just can't imagine it. And I'm like, well, people like I know a lot of business people that love Trump. Like very smart business people who love Trump, right? Like, I know tons of people who love Trump. And I think, like, it's so transparently political what Jack Smith is trying to do.

When the G, when the DOJ made the argument that they had a right to a speedy trial, I was like, OK, we have jumped the shark here. The right to a speedy trial is the defendant's right in America. It has the argument the government. Has a right. TOJ has never once argued for a speedy trial, ever. When they're prosecuting someone, I mean, what? Like, oh, it's mind blowing. It's. It's the opposite of the technique that the government uses, which that will drag you

out until you quit. Because we could do this forever. We're the government. Right. We. Literally make the money that we that we print it. You can't. You can't outspend US. 13179 days investigating my husband right like never charged Donald Trump like and they I think they waited so long because they were hoping he wouldn't run which again I'm like were you paying attention are you based in reality or are you based on what you want reality to be. He was always running.

He was never not going to run, he. Had to re adjudicate 2020 yes that had to be done. And even if you are a person that likes the political left I don't know how you can look around and go whatever happened with COVID whatever you believe about it the wildest thing happened in anyone's lifetime in modern history. We shut down our economy You now see that the people that was like the the 20th surgeon general of the United States.

I've I've I had him on the show the other I showed pictures in the other day Jerome Adams he's wearing a mask in 2024 on a plane saying people need to follow my example. That dude bought into it and he can't let it go. A lot of people got broken by Donald Trump. Like I said, you didn't have to like the guy to know that real people liked him. A lot of people lost their damn minds. A lot of them. A lot of people lost their minds. I have all my mom will get mad if I talk about COVID.

But like all I can say is I had a business that was based on density right? Like a small business. My business model was Co working. It was based on how many people you could fit into a space and my business was worth $60 million that I built. 60 yeah. Yeah. And it was based on and it was based on making the most out of space that was commercial real estate. So that actually plays off what your husband does, I imagine, right? Yeah and yeah, and it was just decimated.

Destroyed And how long? When did you start the Riveter? I started the Riveter in May of 2017 and I built it to a company worth $60 million in 2 1/2 years. While I had two babies, I mean, I worked. And let, yeah, let me just, let me ask this, that was super easy, right? You didn't have to even do anything. It just happens on its own. Is that what people think? No how. Many How many hours a night did you sleep? How? Many. Did you sleep ever in that time? No, barely.

I would sleep like four or five hours a night. I mean, I was, I was in it like I at my husband. My husband is super amazing. And when I wanted to start this company I was going to like start a small business and my husband said if you're going to take the bat, Amy, swing it as hard as you can. So I went for it and I did it and it was my business was completely destroyed by COVID, like my company was for, I guess.

Fortunate that we got two PPP loans, but like the PPP loans were a Band-Aid that they couldn't keep a business built on density alive during shutdown orders for years, for years, right. And so, you know, I yeah, it was just, it was devastating. And then like there were a lot of people who made a lot of money off of COVID and like that. Isn't it interesting that the biggest companies were fine? We had the culling of the small upstart, the sort of the yappy dogs that were able to come and

challenge some of the big dogs. Yeah, yeah. That's what happened. I mean it's just and it's just I I don't know like all these things and it's just I I read something on the Internet the other day that like the CDC is like COVID is now like the flu. I'm like, oh, OK, thanks now thank you. Like after all, like after all of this, like it was, I mean deep breaths.

But like you know, the then the one of the main problems I think is what they did is that when there is a virus that has a very high kill rate and it spreads through the world, no one is going to listen or trust the government. They did. The boy who cried. Well, we literally learned about this as children. They blew it, right? They blew it. And so and and my husband's. Because of Donald Trump, I think in many ways. I tend to agree with you Kyle, on this. Like I think.

Like as a non, as a non Trump. I'm not a Trump or die guy. Everyone knows this about this. I watch the show and like people get mad about it, but like I don't have to be. I want to be a clear minded person. You can objectively see the media lost their mind, The intelligence community's lost their mind, The governmental

apparatus lost their mind. The deep state, which is just the administrative state, just a bunch of people that know each other, that work in government, they lost their minds. We need to stop calling it the Deep State because it sounds so like conspiracy. Like literally just like the guys. The guys that know each other that are in charge, like it's like it's the guys that know each other during charge, like, right. Like it's. It's administrative. I I always tell people like everyone.

When you say Deep State, to me it sounds like a sexy term. Like, just not, not in the way that like EG and Carroll says rape is sexy, which made me want to puke. That was like the most nauseating thing. Like, have you heard that by the way? I didn't. Hear that? Oh, yeah. She was on Anderson Cooper. She was a total creep. So that Lady, she said. I think people think rape is sexy. And you're like, that's the nasty.

Like, as someone who's investigated rape crimes and treated victims, it makes you want to puke. No. But Deep State has sort of, like at this, like mysterious kind of like it. Like, like dark state, Like, like something fun and interesting and mysterious. Like, like my X-Files poster behind me. Like there's a bunch of dudes that are smoking cigarettes in a room together and they're making the plans and they're doing the TV stuff.

That's not the Deep State. The Deep State is like a dude who's got like a a crappy old coffee pot and it's got burnt coffee on it. There's a stain on his desk and they had government funding for new desks, but somebody else got it. Who made more money? That guy who has fluorescent lighting from the 80s in some crappy building that has black mold? They're the ones. But they all know each other.

It's it's Jim Baker from Twitter who's been there since the 90s, and DOJ then goes to Twitter and of course he does whatever the DOJ says. Like who? Who do you think his friends are? Who are the people of? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. One thing I noticed the other day on LinkedIn is that the new general counsel of Norfolk Southern, a train company, former federal prosecutor, you know, the train company that derailed former federal prosecutor to protect the train company.

Like, why is a former federal prosecutor the general counsel of a train company? Do you have experience in the train industry IS? He like a Is he a logistics lawyer? No, He was a prosecutor. Like, no. Nope. Right. So anyway, but like, I I here's what I here's what I think about Trump and COVID. Love it. But for COVID, Trump would have, what, been reelected in a landslide. I wouldn't have voted for him, but he would at that, you know, at that time, for sure. No.

But, like, he would have been reelected in a landslide. A landslide. That is the truth. Yeah, they did everything. That much is the truth, right? Like he would have been. You don't even have to get into contested election theories to know without that insane Black Swan out of nowhere event and they pulled out of the chocks and the the casualties. And here's the thing. The only casualties of getting rid of Trump was everybody who was a small business that got decimated.

And all these people lost their faith in institutions and complete destruction of like there's a guy named Amarillo Slim. He's a a famous gambler and has all this folksy wisdom. And he says you can you can shear sheep many times, but you can only skin it. Once they skinned the sheep with COVID.

They did. That's a that's a very good way of putting it. I think it's a very, it's just like there wasn't even like what you can tell now is there wasn't even there was no rational thought of very smart minds of like what do we do here? What is the smartest thing to do here? And it is like, I oh, man. So I, I, you know, I don't want to really get into Israel and Gaza. But like I studied national security studies in college. Not an expert, but I learned a

lot about war. And like Israel was attacked by a terrorist organization who continues to hold Israeli hostages. And Israel's going to do everything they can to get them back. Right. And that's war and people are going to die. Lots of people, Right. But like Israel did not start this particular act of aggression. They did not, you know, like in, nor can we stop them if you want. Everyone's like Biden needs to call a seize for him like Biden's. Not the President of Israel,

anyway. Right. Yeah. Israel kind of does it's own thing. That's why it's still Israel. Otherwise, there'd be no Israel. So crazy, but but like I bring it up to say, you know, it's like when I talk about was there, like we cannot have a conversation in America of what is the proportionate response when there is a, when there is a virus that could kill some people. We aren't allowed to have that conversation. It's like, no, shut everything down, right.

Wow. And this is something I'm passionate about, like we have here in Ohio, we have, like in Columbus, OH, we have the highest rate of maternal mortality in the country. You know, for certain populations. Like, no one gives a shit. Like, no one's like, oh, stop everything. How do we save these babies and these moms, right? But like, in this instance, we just shut everything down to save. I don't know. Like I don't think we did the proper analysis.

It's, I always say that there's a lot of first order thinking, which is like how do we stop this thing in front of us. But there's no second and third order thinking like what are the effects of that downstream? That seems like a very OK, I'm going to, I'm going to get into this. This is good. I have a female on to to talk about it. There's a male instinct towards rationality that says, OK, yes, that's really important. But also can we look at the following effects?

There's a sort of rationality which we kind of attribute to the male side. There's an emotionality which we need both. I I would not argue that either one is superior. There's an emotionality that says but but don't you feel terrible that this is happening And those two things in a marriage work really well as a balance. My wife will come to me and say we should give money to this cause and I go why this cause

and not other causes? Is there a better way to give the money is just giving it directly to the person versus giving it to a family? Like are there better ways to accomplish this and we temper each other out. We make a good decision based on the feeling and then also the sort of the thought and sort of that that cold, you know, evaluation, analysis, that's how it's supposed to actually work

for a lot of stuff. I see the left as being a very feminine version that that emotional driven, there's a lot of energy. There's a lot of activity, there's this is so bad. But when I look at things like that and then I compare it, you just said Israel, I can do the same thing with opioid deaths. We can do the same thing with gun deaths. Do you care about Chicago? That seems like a real problem. Why do you care about my AR15? Who cares? It's never hurt anybody.

And by the way, kids aren't dying from AR15 wounds. They aren't getting shot with two 2-3 and five 5-6. They're dying from like 9mm and 22 and three 80s and other crap guns that are out there in the world. That's who's dying. So why don't we handle effects in the order with? How about medical malpractice? Kills more than all those things, by the way, like like 500,000 people die from that. Are we allowed to talk about that? Or heart disease kills more

people because of bad lifestyle. And you know, we used to call it the trifecta in in emergency medicine, if you are hypertensive, high blood pressure, if you are morbidly obese. Right. And then what? What is the third one? Overweight, hypertensive and then diabetes? Yeah. So like, yeah, you're, it's all dietary. They're all lifestyle choices. Like we don't talk about that. No, we don't.

Nor do we talk about like the the food industry in America and the Pharmaceutical industry in America that want us to be sick. Yeah, I know. Like we had the worst outcomes for COVID and we have the most money and most medicine. How much sense does that make? It doesn't make any sense, right. And it's like in yeah it's we

have. I think it I personally think it all goes back to what I talked about at the beginning of this pay to play government right of like the government serving the interests of the biggest companies and the and the wealthiest people and what they want and what they need and maximizing shareholder value. And they kind of do everything

along those those ways. Like when the NRA was very powerful you know it had a had a very, very powerful influence in DC and like listen my my husband is a gun owner right. Like I you know I I believe in responsible gun ownership and and but like it's it's the lobbies right. It's it's just a lot like the Pharmaceutical industry. Like how much did they get away with right? And like how much money did they make off of COVID?

And what what I say to people too is like, you can't tell me it's not pay to play when this is true. It's like think about Amazon. They give equally to Democrats and Republicans. They don't. They have no ideology, like they don't care. They just want power in more government. Contracts, which equals winning. Yeah. And so all of these things, yeah. I I feel like there's an American position in the middle there. I don't know what that party is

called like. I call it conservative lower case CI. Call it because I do want the things that are traditionally in this country. I'm not mad at liberals. I'm not mad at people that disagree with, like where we should spend our money. Like, we could have that debate like you're not going to hurt my feelings. You and I could. We probably don't agree on a ton of things like that are in the social sphere all the time, but we wouldn't be mad at each other. Like I'm not mad at you ever.

Yeah, I mean it's like I, you know, I will, I will say and like this probably like won't resonate very well with this, you know, with this community. But like, one of the reasons that I was a progressive and had that line in the sand most of my life was to be productive rights. You know, and it's like, I believe, like, I don't want to go have an abortion, but I believe it's a medical issue. Right. And I didn't. I don't want people to, I just don't want people to vote on it.

That's my position on abortion. I don't want it to be a political issue. I don't want people to vote on it. Like if you were vehemently against it, I completely respect that and let you know what I mean. But it's like and of course, like, I don't think there should be any abortions after viability, all these things. But point being, right, like I

had this line in the sand. But like, I now look at that and I'm like, well, OK, then I need to not have that happen to my family if I care this way or like or if I didn't care, you know, let it happen. But like not have that be the one thing that I vote on all the time, right? Because then you're you let go of everything else and I think. Failure to have that ideological consistency across the board is

really, really hard. And yeah you and I disagree on abortion and that's OK like we're we don't have to be mad at each other. I don't want bad things to happen to you because of it. I want good things to happen and then I want to change your heart at some point or and and as you just said you don't actually believe in it personally for yourself. You believe it for other people. That's such a an interesting sort of thing.

We can do a whole podcast on the number of people that have taken on the banner of other people's problem and hey, that's a real discussion to have. We could have that. Yeah, And that's what people do. They could do that want is like safe reproductive choices, right? Like where, like people aren't getting pregnant when they don't want to. That's ultimately what everybody wants, right? Like you want people who don't

like. OK, so you and I would agree that if we could go upstream that we didn't have unwanted pregnancies, whatever that is more personal responsibility, better choice, we would agree on that A. 100 like both and that's the thing it's like. Everybody would. That's where you get, that's get there, right? Like get to that point, right. So you know, that's the.

The problem is, is what we've seen is that people have gone downstream to it to the point where it's shout your abortion, celebrate it like a sacrament, do all this ugly stuff. And people have good, good conscious and good faith like they shouldn't want that. That's not a good position to stake out. Hence the safe, legal and rare. I think you're probably still in that category. Yeah, safe, legal, and rare. It's a Hillary Clinton position, right? Like it's the, but you know the.

Clans used to be like the clans today would be right wing extremists. So I think that is true. I think about that a lot, right? Like I I do think about. That that's crazy. Yeah. And they were. They were like, they were the evil evil. But like, remember when Bill Clinton was president? Nobody. Like they were like, he's like doing bad things in the White House is, but the economy's good. Like the policies aren't terrible. We didn't have that much contention.

And see, here's the thing like going back to Trump that people like, when I think about like whether Trump will win like Trump, yes, I think Trump will win. And the reason is because people ask the one question that matters in every election. Am I better off today than I was four years ago? And most Americans right now will say no. The Uber wealthy will say hell yes for killing it. But like the most Americans

aren't. They've marginalized people that are even on the fringe, the theoretical people that they're even if you're like a like a a bleeding heart type who's full of compassion, like you're hurting the poorest people in America by bringing in more people that are poor at the border, that seems to be very salient. Like, that's just obvious. Cesar Chavez used to fight against illegal immigration like he's he's looking damn

communists. I dug into the border thing recently because I was like, you know, I always ask myself and like, is this like, because what I'll read is like, the right wing's going crazy over this. Is this really a thing? And I was looking at it and I'm like, wow, what is happening?

And like, I believe in like, more legal pathways to immigration because immigrants in America will, you know, have in the past 100 years have started some of those valuable companies are the most valuable innovations, right? Like, we need more illegal immigration in America, less red tape, less bureaucracy. It's like, impossible. But like, what the hell is happening? What is happening at the border? Like, what is happening? Like, I don't even understand. It's called.

Clower Piven. Are you familiar with that strategy? What? Cloward, Piven, that's what we're talking about. They overwhelm the resources. You got to bring in the federal solution to it, and that's almost always the worst. And honestly, the the the closest that the government is to you, the more accountable it is to you. And so even people that want more government should want it closer to them. So that at least responds to them. The federal government doesn't

care when you scream. They don't care about crushing you, as you found out. They really don't. They don't care. I think about it all the time. I'm like do like The thing is Kyle, is that ultimately I'm not 100% sure why like someone at the DOJ was like we can't do this and not only can like we not keep going forward, we have to unwind what we did which as you know. It's so hard to be somebody. At some point you have to realize, like, where are we right now?

I think I I think I know who it was and I'll say it out loud to applaud him. If it is this person. I think this AUSA, he's been in AUSA his whole life. His name is Russell Carl Berg, and like I think it, I think it was him. Was he like, was he recently brought on to the to the? That's why if you step, here's the thing. And I think he asked. Like the I think he asked basic questions about Amazon validation. It was like, brief.

Me on this case. And. Then when the answers are like, we don't know why we did that, like, do you have this information? Where'd that come from? They gave it to us. What about this? They gave us that, too. When that starts happening, I I see this the same way that that this recent Supreme Court decision comes down. It's 90 Trump. Not because Katanji Jackson Browne thinks that Trump is a good guy. I think she probably despises him. I don't like what she has to say.

She seems foolish about a lot of stuff, but like, that doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that the legitimacy of your operation is in question when you do batshit crazy things. They try to pull him off a ballot without a criminal prosecution. By the way, we have that statue. You can charge him with that stuff. Yeah, they don't do. Listen, I agree with you. And the one thing I will say about Justice Brown is that she's a former public defender.

And I think it is so important to have a voice on the court that was not a prosecutor because like in federal courts at the district level, some insane percentage of District Court judges are former federal prosecutors. Like they just believe anything the government says, right? And so I'm glad that we have that counter. I don't. I don't hate it. I don't. Like I said, there's a yin and a gang. There's balance everywhere that. It doesn't matter what you're talking about.

The Force. There's there's good and there's evil. There's dark and there's light. There's always a balance. And if without one we just have either, I guess we have just utopia, which doesn't exist. That's nowhere, right? We know that. That's what the word means. So if you don't have utopia, then we have this fallen world and it's got to have contrast and Shades of Grey and all the other things.

Like let's disagree, let's have good faith, let's all have the sort of let's have that same common values. I don't know if Katanji Brown has the same values, American values. I do. But I wouldn't put it past her to have them. I don't think she doesn't know what a woman is. I think that was a political posture. I think she knows what a woman is. I forgot about that She She. You can't be.

You can't be the first black female and not know what a female is. Well, maybe she's just like, I'm not stepping in this minefield, because that is, that is a dangerous thing, I think, where we are in America. We're doing loyalty tests. I mean, I have had a lot of people, 'cause, you know, I've been very publicly very progressive my whole life. And like, the first time when I went on Glenn Beck or when I went on Tucker Carlson, like, I

lost business, right? And people are like, how could you do this? I'm like, first of all, like, how does me going on with Glenn Beck mean that? I identify with everything that Glenn stands for, which, like some of it I do, some of it I don't, Right. He's a journalist, right? Like, yes, he's an, he's an opinionated journalist. Like, he brings an opinion. That's what he does, right? First of all, every journalist does FYI. And to think they don't is just

like a farce. But, like also, But I also say to them, like I'm, you know, Glenn is willing to hear my story and so is Tucker. And the thing I say to people now, like, isn't it interesting to you that you think these guys are conspiracy theorists? I was right. DOJ said I was right. And they were the only journalists, you know, because you were not a journalist at the beginning when I started this. But like, no. But like that, that had me out. That had me on.

You go where the where the microphone is. If you need to tell your story and people need to get, you can't do it by yourself. Fighting for your family. Would you be like, sorry, little girls, sorry my daughters. I couldn't go on Tucker Carlson. So daddy went to prison like, I'm not doing that. No. And I think that, listen, I agree with some of what Tucker says. I disagree with some of what he

says. But I think it's super important to have voices like Tucker Carlson out there questioning the status quo question, making people question, you know, everything. Because I don't think I don't see it happening a lot of places anymore, right? And like. Skepticism is a very American

position. I mean, I got into a battle with the Seattle Times recently because so the Seattle Times, like, barely wrote about what Amazon did to my family, which I think is bananas because my husband was like a Seattle employee. And there's over a million Amazon employees in Seattle and. Awful lot more money coming in from Amazon to. Seattle.

But, like, I mean, quite simply, Amazon tried to put my husband in prison for something a federal judge said my husband's employment contract explicitly allowed him to do, and we had to spend millions of dollars proving Amazon wrong. So weird. Anyway, so Seattle Times, I

guess it's like, not newsworthy. But they actually said to me recently that the last article they wrote about it, they said, well, like, the DOJ vacated these guilty pleas, but Carl Nelson could still be charged with a crime. And I was like, I just wrote an e-mail. I was like, what are you doing? Like, the prosecutor said, they're done. They said in a public filing. They said it privately, like, they're done.

This is over. And they were like, well, we think that the judge's decision in Amazon civil case made DOJ walk away and Amazon's appealing. So if Amazon wins, the DOJ could charge your husband. And I was like, so you're you, the Seattle Times. Your public position is that you believe Amazon can convince the DOJ to charge my husband with a crime through civil litigation. OK. I mean, at least you're open about it. At least you admit it.

Like, I don't know how many times I've thrown my hands up while we've been talking, but I'm realizing I've been throwing my hands up a lot because it's so crazy. So crazy. It's so crazy. But here, here's the upside. I I do think there's an upside one. Number one, I'm so thankful that prayers have been answered that your family was victorious in this. I know that it's still really raw because I can see it on your face.

I can see the emotion there for me if like I, I I know that elation often results also in just sort of like meltdown moments where you're just like you're like what the hell just happened? Like it's like people that like imagine for folks that are not have never felt this. Everybody who's ever been in a moment where your car lost grip with the road, hydroplane or ice, and you're just spinning and you're literally in the hands that are not yours, you're

not in charge. It's Jesus take the wheel moment where it's like I'm flying across the world at a high rate of speed. There's an incredible thing at stake. It's my children in the car. It's the property of the value of the thing that I'm in my own safety. And then you stop and you didn't hit a guardrail and you went over like a bunch of stuff, but like, there's no damage to the car.

You didn't even, like, pop a tire and you're sitting there in the middle of the median or something going like, holy shit, what just happened? And you see and like, all the people that drive by you are really slow going like, holy shit, like, what just happened to her? And everybody can see it. That's the moment that you're in right now, I feel like, is that is that the face that I'm seeing? It's the holy shit. You're sitting there in the median and like, the engine's

still idling. Yeah, and I'm like, did this really happen? Did we survive this like that? Holy shit. And everybody who's around it saw it too. And they're all like, Oh my God, yeah. The problem is everybody else just drives to their house and parks and goes like, well, I saw that crazy thing today. Yep, back to my normal life. Yeah, And you're sitting there like my entire life was almost just gone forever. Everything almost just changed. I don't know how to pick up the pieces.

And like, I also still am somebody who seeks justice. And like, we're seeking justice, I know. Yeah, you can't. You can't not be furious. Your life is forever altered. Forever old. I mean, my kids, like, Ohio is a wonderful place and we live in Ohio now and my kids are growing up here. But this is not where I would have selected to raise my children. We were raising them in Seattle, where we owned a home that we no longer own and own and someone else is raising their family there.

Yeah, we worked so hard, you know, And you're just like, it's. Yeah, I mean, yeah, like, even though we won, Amazon dictated the terms of my life and they still do, even today. And I'm not. That's not OK. And I can't stand for it. I won't. So, and that's the best part about it for you. But no matter what, you will never be able to go down that same path, with that same carefree attitude, with that same sense of you. You'll never even be able to take risks in the same way.

No, I mean, it's really like we've talked about leaving the country and living somewhere else. Because I think there's there's a when you realize that at any given moment, the federal government can just walk into your life and take every take everything, it's it's just hard to feel safe. It's hard to believe you can build. It's hard to. It's hard to believe. Right. And so, you know, yeah, we will take risks in different ways.

But I but I will say, and I think my husband would say this like we'll never let what happened to us define our lives forever, right? Like the most important thing for us is to make sure that Amazon doesn't do this to anyone else and the DOJ doesn't do this to anyone else. And So what does that look like? Those are the two questions. What does what do those look like?

And then also like I want my daughters more than anyone to be compensated, whatever that looks like, because they deserve to be right? Like it's not a. And what a what a People might call it conservative, but it's just an American sense. It's a Western civilization sense. Women and children, They're the ones that we're supposed to protect. Once you've made babies in the world, your job is to protect them. That's your sole purpose. If you have to give your life for it, so be it.

There's a Western and and men do it over in front of women. That's what's always happened. There's nothing wrong with this this order of things. Well, and it's like, you know, it's like people. So you know this Kyle. But like 2 years into this, I started a TikTok because I felt like nobody was listening to me and I just like thought TikTok

was a dancing app. But I started watching and I'm like there's some people like talking into their their phones and putting videos up. So I started a TikTok and I didn't even ask Carl's lawyers. I was like, I'm just doing this, and I have 200,000 followers now who watch our story every day. And someone asked me, and it's like a lot of, like, legal intricacies, but people are interested in it. And someone asked me why I started the TikTok.

And the reason I started the TikTok is that inevitably my daughters are going to grow up and they're going to Google our family and what happened to us. And all I want is a record that they know that I did every single thing I could to fight. Because when I started it, I didn't know if their dad was going to prison, you know, And like, I was like, I want them to know that I I did everything I could to help their dad. And our memories are not perfect.

They're really bad, actually. We're really bad at looking back and trying to remember like where I was. I I literally like, we're doing this today on March 5th. So, you know, Full disclosure, we'll play this in a week.

I'm doing this on March 5th and 1-2 years ago today I was allowed to go back into the FBI field office because they changed the mask rules because Joe Biden wanted to have the State of the Union and not have like he didn't want to have people having to wear masks if they didn't want to and have people refuse. So he removed for a political reason that had nothing to do with me. I was allowed to go back into my office and then my office went oh shit, Seraphin's back. What do we do?

They thought I was gone Amy. I was kicked out from November 23rd of 2021 until March 4th of 2022. Imagine being gone from your job and then nobody calling you and no one asking like what happens. And then like the rules changed and I showed up with with no warning. I was like, I'm back. I sent an e-mail to my boss and said hey, the rules changed, I'm coming to work and he was like, oh, they immediately transferred me to another squad. They immediately started taking action against me.

They immediately were like scrambling because they thought they'd accidentally like, they thought they had done the thing from office space where they solved the glitch. And I didn't get a pay like I was I was Milton and I wasn't coming back anymore. I was down in the basement and like suddenly I just showed back up at my old desk and they're like my boss comes in and he goes, well, we've transferred you from this squad to another squad and you are now in a

national security squad. Even though you don't have to read and you can't even do the work, we put you there, so. So did you just like, walk? I mean, did you? What did you do? I just. Took my I just took my shit and I went to the new desk. I had everything at home already. I already knew this was coming, so I literally set up my new desk in a place and then for six weeks I had no work. They just sat me there trying to figure out what the hell to do.

Oh. My. God knowing they've done the wrong thing. But here's the thing that was two years ago that was really recent. You're talking about your story is 4 years. There are things that happened at the beginning that you can't remember. Our first interview, that emotion. You can't recapture it. Yeah, so your kids get to go back and see that video. As awful as TikTok is and TikTok

is awful. For whatever it's worth, it's Chinese spyware, but it's still yeah, it's a. Record and the and the other thing is like I'm and I'm really lucky for this is because I was an entrepreneur. I talked to journalists a lot and there was an amazing woman named Liz Brody. And then like mid 20/20, she was writing an article about one of my investors and she reached out to me on e-mail and we started talking and I was telling her about my company, the Riveter, which had been decimated.

But we were trying to pivot and the Riveter's still alive today, just does something very different. But and Liz at the time said it'll be really interesting if you pull off this pivot. Maybe we should like talk every three weeks or so and I can record it and then maybe there's an article down the road. So I have and about like two months into it, I was like, so there's this thing I haven't told you about that's going on in my life. And I started telling her all about the Amazon stuff.

And so we had. Liz has years of recordings of me at the moment. Contemporaneous recordings of your emotional state and. I actually can't listen to them. I can read the transcripts, but I can't listen to them still all these years later, I still can't listen to them because I'm like, that woman was in so much pain and I just want to hug her and it's, you know, me, Me. Yeah, me. It's you looking back yourself, going like I came out the other

end of this thing. Like I said, nobody else was in the car with you. Nobody else felt what that free fall was, just you and your husband and your kids. Nobody knows what sort of damage was done and then they're going to see the success, which is what you got, but it's, it leaves a mark, you know? It really does. It really. I mean, you've been through a lot. Like you lost the career that you loved and like you've built something amazing in its place.

But it's different. And like, you know, it's. Totally different. It's not even close. And here's the other thing, like, I don't know how, I don't know how this goes because this is, this is uncharted territory too. You, you guys, at least I see what happened with you guys as sort of vindicating.

I'm hoping that they took that they did the same thing that they took their ball and they went home and they're not going to come after me the same way that they but I still could go back and to start from your square one of the the door gets kicked open. I know I. Know I don't worry about it as much anymore. I feel like. I feel like we're on the swing. I feel like good is winning for now. Do you have that instinct? I do. I do. And I also think, like, I mean,

I think that Trump will win. And I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens with the DOJ when Trump wins. He's got it, got it right. I mean, he says he's going to I I I hope if he wins, I hope he does the things, some of the things he says he'll do in terms of like reforming the government. So you know.

You know, my my, my buddy Steve friend and I talk about the best thing that could happen is pulling the guns away from the FBI and making them just an investigative agency that has to go to somebody else for enforcement and has to go to somebody else for prosecution. I mean, that would be great, because I can tell you the scars I have from the FBI right in my home were the worst, right? Like it was worse than the civil forfeiture was worse than everything.

Yeah. Nobody knows what that feels like to see the door come down or people come into your house. The second thing is, is that I've I've advocated is that you get rid of all the special agents. I don't care what you do with them. Honestly, I just don't care. I don't care what happens to the prison guards that worked at Auschwitz. And I don't care about what happened to the cops that rounded up shoes and put them in the box cars. And I don't care what happens to the FBI.

There's some friends of mine that are in there and they're good people. They'll land. OK, I I got no warning. You know, I I feel like they'll do OK or they won't and that'll be fine too. But what I'd love to see is local cops or state cops with 10 plus years of experience and A and a great history of honorable service getting moved in, being accountable as federal deputies under Title 18 and Title 21 to enforce and do the investigations. And that way they also have

concurrent state powers. But that way they're accountable to an attorney general and state laws, not federal. And then they can bring cases and then US attorneys can bring it or not. I don't care. That would make way more sense. I think that would that would make good sense. And if you look back in the origins of the FBI like the first agents and the the people that really built the agency, the good parts of the agency like they were state law enforcement.

You know, like that's that was the background that they came from and we're very, very disconnected from that now. And so it's a very, you know, my husband always talks about how, like, when they were performing the search warrant on our house, he was, like talking to the FBI agents that were there. And he was like, so like, what'd you do before this? And it was just like, Wild and Sky was like, I was a bookkeeper

and I was really bored. And he's like, so now you it's like, so now you're an FBI agent with a gun in my home over my honest services. Like, it's like, it's like, what? I mean, it's such the drama, the drama of it, the drama of it, You know what I mean?

The like the, you know, I've told you this and this is still such a hard part but like when my husband would not plead guilty, the federal prosecutors kept saying that they were going to come into our home and arrest him in front of our kids just some morning. And when that when they came for the search warrant, that's what we thought they were there for because they did search warrant like two months after they told him he was a target of an investigation, which made no

sense. And after that, you know, we would get up every morning at like 5:30 and take the girls out of the house for two hours and put our baby monitor in our window that was attached to our phones. And then when we come back, we were just making sure they weren't there because we were so afraid that I just didn't want the girls to see their dad drag down handcuffs. They bring it up because the theatrics of this are so

ridiculous. Like, my husband was accused of depriving his private employer of his honest services. And they're like, we're going to come in, guns are blazing and drag you out of your house. Like what? Well, how does that make sense? Like, I don't like. I don't like Roger Stone. I don't like Roger Stone. OK. But like, he was like a 70 year old man, no violent history. And they like they sent frog men into the water behind his house when they raided his home to arrest him. Like for what?

Because it's a game. Like we don't live in a game, we live in the real world. And like that. Those kind of theatrics are ridiculous and I found out. That actually, we actually do live in a game. Yeah, I mean, it does feel that way. Like, those theatrics are just ridiculous. Just ridiculous. There's no way around it, anybody that gets exposed to this stuff immediately. I mean, I I'm guessing you have some sympathy for Steve Baker walking around for a misdemeanor or crime.

He's in, he's in belly shackles. He's. I mean, a. 100% I do, 100% I do. Right? Like, it's just, it's ridiculous and it's like he's putting on a very brave face and public face. But like, you know, that is a terrifying experience. Do you know what the difference is? Can I can I tell you the difference, which I don't know that I've discussed in any way? I I talked to George Hill, my friend the other day, who's a a former. He's a combatant.

OK, you're a combatant. You didn't know you were before this, but you were. You were always a combatant. Would you agree? Yeah, I would. I've just never been tested. But you're a combatant by by your by the type of disposition you have. You would be the kind of person that would engage. Many people have the ability to dis like their their instinct is to disconnect. Mine is to engage. I'm a combatant. You're a combatant. We're fair game, you know. What?

It's it's unfair that we were, that we had to engage here, but it is our nature to do what we're doing, what you and I. Are doing. Yes. I engage. Yeah that's right. That's I I dig in. Like, I didn't pick the battle, but I'm going to finish it. Kind of thing. Like, I didn't want him to have this fight. But OK, game on, will. Bill Shipley, who's been defending a lot of J Sixers, has that same combatant attitude.

He just published a piece over the Blaze called It's called Game On, and I'll read It, OK That's the way that that you and I are built. And that's probably why we get along really well also. We're very, you know, we see the injustice of it and even if we don't agree with the what justice looks like, we would at least want to have that honest debate. Right. But, but Steve Baker is not a combatant. Well, you know, this is, this is where it spills over. Yeah. That's a really good way of

looking at that. There's another target who I won't name in Amazon's investigation, who is not a combatant. And watching him go through this and like, he stood firm, but like he couldn't. He got up. He couldn't, you know, like fight outwardly because he couldn't. He was paralyzed by it, I think, in a lot of ways, you know. There's three things that happened in the sympathetic responses. There's three possibilities. The outcomes are fight, flight and freeze.

Two of them are active. One of them is passive combatants involved in either fighting or flighting. Because running away is a good strategy sometimes, and getting involved is another good strategy. But freezing is the most common thing we see in our and. And one it's non combatants all freeze. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's interesting. I I when this started, I froze. I lost 20 lbs and I couldn't

stop shaking. And my mother, who is like the strongest person I've ever met, she Facetimed me and I was sitting on the bathroom floor hiding and it'd been about 3 weeks and she just on FaceTime. She looked at me and she goes get up. She's like, this is not my daughter. She's like get up and fight. And I was like, I don't know if I can fight. She's like, I don't know if you can win, but I know you can fight. She's like, you got to go down swinging. Amy, what are you doing?

And at that moment, I just was like, OK, I'm in, right? But I think I was just it says a lot that it took me down to my knees because I am, I am like I am someone who engages. I'm a litigator. Like I I'm born to fight. Like I chose a profession of fighting. But like it it was so scary that I just, like, went down. People always think that, you know, if something bad happens to me, then I'll win. I'll, I'll, I'll. I got all this training and experience.

There's a reason why if you ambush Navy Seals, Navy Seals die, OK? These are people that spend their entire life with physical fitness and being combatants. That's all they They yearn for that battle space. Anybody who's ever trained around guys like this know what I'm talking about. But if you get caught when you are not in that space, there's Jeff Cooper. He's the father of, like, modern handgun technique.

He's a former special Forces guy, worked down in South Latin America a bunch and and South America. And one of the things that he talks about are the colors awareness. There's white, there's yellow, there's orange, there's red and there's black, and in white that means you're so blissfully unaware the world is beautiful, and then if something bad happens to you, you die. Yellow means you know that there's danger, but it's not near you, but you're aware that it exists.

And if something happens in yellow and you can't escalate, you die. Most people who are like you and me probably live in the orange, which means that we know there's danger and it's probably anywhere. But if it comes up, I'm going to have to escalate. But right now I'm like moderately safe. And then there's people who live in the red. Those people burn out. That means that there's imminent danger and the next thing that happens is like lethality or

attack mode. I'm going to, I'm ready to fight at all times. You can only live in the red for so long. And then there's people getting the black. They're overwhelmed by circumstances, They've been in the red, they've been fought, they fought too long and they and they basically get everything hits them at once and they just they're done.

And we've got a lot of people that are non combatants now that are living in like the red and the orange and it's exhausting if you're not built for it. And most people freeze and eventually some people are overwhelmed by circumstances they can no longer do it, they meltdown. I see a lot of people that made sense and stop making sense in the last couple years because they were like I don't trust anything. And now everything I believe is

true. And that's why there are Jewish space lasers that are melting down Hawaii or whatever other crazy shit people believe in. It's it's the worst thing that's ever happened to our society, in Western society, certainly in in recent memory, and we're all living through it.

I'm just really happy to see that your family, you get another shot at it and this is like the like the best news that when I saw it that that they had vacated like that's a total victory for you it. It was like I didn't I I I hoped for it. I believed it. But it was wild. And we found out about it on the public docket. Like it wasn't like the DOJ reached out. We found about it, out about it, as the public did, because God forbid they would reach out.

And like the kindness to tell us, they were doing that. No. They don't have that. What what color do you guys live in right now on that color awareness? Where have you gone from? Well, I'm in orange still. I mean orange. Like orange. Like I'm not. I can't live in constant fight. I can't live in red. I can't, right. Like, I have to like I can't enjoy my kids. I can't laugh. It's like I just refuse to live in red.

Like it's not. There are moments where I'm still triggered into red, like I was sitting. My desk looks out on a window and I get up really early in work because I work from like 5 to 7 before and then get the kids ready for school and take them to school and walk the dog. And I was sitting here and it was pitch black and a car drove into a driveway like 6:00 in the morning. And I just like, you know, and it was, it was Walmart delivering a package, 'cause I don't order from Amazon.

It was Walmart. But, like, but it was, I mean, I was. I was, I was panicked. And it took a much, I'm much more capable now of, like regulating back down, you know, like no one's coming to get you today. Everything is OK, you know? And they no longer like I used to. When I would go walk the dog alone, I would tell Carl where I was going, where I would, because it's what's scary. It's scary, right? Like Jeff Bezos hires former Spooks. He talks about it all the time.

Like these people are capable, you know, and they don't, and they're very angry at us. Yeah, and and ambushes are a technique that everybody is susceptible to ambush, that's what. That's why ambushes are successful. Yeah, I mean, like, I know how to shoot a gun now. Like, I learned that over the last four years. Like I I shoot very well, right? You know, like, I learned. Like these are the things you know, you learn. I changed. But I live in orange, not red. I'm happy to hear it.

We're going to get you one of our We'll get maybe two of them. The suspendables pins. If if your husband wants to wear it, yeah. I would love them. I was jealous. We were. You can't. You can't buy the black ones. We send those to people that need them. So we're going to send you guys some of those. But if you guys want some of the white ones, we'll get a couple of those as well, but. I was listening to Glenn back yesterday and I didn't know Steve was going to be on.

And I was. I was listening to Steve and I was jealous of Glenn's suspendable pen. So thank you very much. We'll make it happen. The Riveter is back up and running. Yes. So what we do now at The Riveter is we no longer have our Co working spaces that we work with women and professional women to help them tell their stories into the world. I believe storytelling can save your life. I think it saved my life. I you know, I think like you're a storyteller, Kyle.

It's incredibly important, and for women it can help you advance in your career or if you want to start a business, or if you want to go back to work if you've been out for a while. So we help women tell their stories. And then your Twitter following is still acceptable. It's nowhere near your TikTok, but I think that's where the battle is. The the battle's on Twitter for me. So there's. Your I love Twitter. Twitter is my Twitter.

Don't tell TikTok. But Twitter is my favorite because it's just like I like the it's it's it's written word. It's smart. It's interesting. It's. Snarky and cerebral. If people stop doing snarky tweets, we probably could cure cancer. But because there's so much cleverness out there. All right, I'm gonna throw your your handle up here. But it's Amy under score, K under score, Nelson and. That's where it is on all channels. So it's TikTok as well if

anyone's on the that platform. And did you see, I have to know, Kyle, did you see that Instagram and the meta went down today. It's Election Day and meta went meta. A global, global outage. We we don't believe in coincidences at this point in our lives, do we? No, we do not. I don't believe in space lasers either necessarily. Yeah. I don't. I don't either. But yeah, but yeah, I thought that was really, that was really interesting. I'm like, OK, so yes.

All right, we will play this in a couple days. And I'm so happy for your story and I really appreciate you being my friend and coming on and talking to us about it and sharing it and being vulnerable with it, 'cause I know that is a vulnerability and if people can follow you, all those places, all of our prayers for your family going on, and we'll get those pins your way home. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thanks, Amy. All right, folks. And that is our show for the day and I really appreciate you guys listening. Thanks so much. If you if that moved you, you should share the story. Amy's story's so good and I'll. I'll go join her on her TikTok. I don't want to, but I will. I definitely will. She told me we could go do something on a TikTok live. Good Lord, I'm going to sell out

to the Chinese here. No, I will do whatever it takes because this is one of those stories that we cannot let fall. And the persistence should inspire all of you. Really appreciate you guys giving her your attention and being a great audience and sharing that story. Continue to support her on Twitter and let's do something we're We're going to support the O'boyle family merch store too. Not really a promo, kind of an internal support thing.

The Dash suspendables.com. You guys can go to that website if you are interested in picking up one of our outstanding shirts, including the new Kyle Seraphin Show shirt. I don't know when they're going to start shipping. When you guys get them, somebody's going to have to send me a picture while wearing it. That's right, you have to tag me on social media at Kyle Seraphin. In order to do that, you got to go to the Dash suspendables.com. If you use the promo code Kyle, you'll save 10%.

If you want to pick up some of our suspendables pins, which are by far the most popular thing, you can wear them on your lapel, like I will be wearing tomorrow night in Lewiston or maybe, I guess it's Saturday night. Go ahead and get yourself some of those. If you order two, we're going to give you 3 anyway, so you might as well order three and it'll knock the price down and you'll see them for 30 bucks.

So that's the best way to do it. And an outstanding way to support FBI whistleblower, specifically the O'boyle family who's been through an awful lot still in that fight against the FBI. Yeah, it's not going anywhere. All right folks, So we appreciate your support there. If you are interested, you guys know how to get it. It's the don't forget the dash suspendables.com. Use the promo code. Kyle and I have not forgotten.

Here is a 5 star review. I've been remiss couple days here so let's do this one from Danny Moe going back in time a little bit. It says finally five stars. You were the first that I've heard. Making the point that the FACE Act should be used to protect pro-life reproductive health facilities as well and call attention to the fact that it's not that is not used for this, even though there are many cases of damages done to these

facilities. We need a running list of pro-life versus he said pro-life. But we know pro death prosecutions sought using the statute to include the total number of incidents reported. You know where you're going to find that Danny Moe that was kind of a wordy little one. But you know where you're going

to find that. You're going to find that at catholicvote.org they are actually keeping track of violations of the FACE Act that are not pursued by this Justice Department. Go ahead and check them out again. Highly recommend it. Really grateful for all of you. Make sure you leave a five star review If you were doing it on Apple, on Spotify, on iHeartRadio, you can do. I'm going to start looking for the iheart ones. There's got to be. I've been picking them up off Spotify.

We'll start doing some of those as well. Really appreciate all of you guys. Almost to 1005 star reviews in just over a year. Humbling. Honoured and I'm glad that you guys join us every morning. Hang out tomorrow, you're going to see another good interview. I don't want to spoil it. So we'll see you again in the morning. God bless you. Be safe.

See you soon. Thanks for listening to The Kyle Serafin Show, streamed live weekdays on rumble.com/kyle Serafin. Follow Kyle on Twitter, True Social, and Instagram at Kyle Serafin.