#0049 - Season 2 Wrap Up

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Don't let nicotine control you. That's quitwithjones.com slash save 10 and use code save 10 for $10 off. On this episode, we do a no Rogan experience season wrap up. The No Rogan Experience starts now. Welcome back to the show. It's a show where two podcasters now with 140 hours of Rogan experience get to know Joe Rogan. It's a show for those who are curious about Joe Rogan, his guests and their claims, as well as for anyone.

wants to understand Joe's ever-growing media influence. I'm Cecil Cicerello, joined by Michael Marshall. Today, we're going to be covering our own season wrap-up. And before we get to it... We got to thank our Area 51. All Access Pass patrons have been with us all season. I want to thank, okay, I think I've overdone the bit. Just call me.

Carissa Gunderson, The Fallacious Trump Podcast, definitely an AI overlord, Fred Argruthius, Blue Ridge True Crime Podcast, Mike Fish, Dr. Andrew Gibson, The Online Physics Tutor, Scott Laird, Angie Matkey, Stone Banana.

Laura Williams. No, not that one. The other one. Slutty Bartfast. Stargazer97. Cindy Lynch. Yes, that's Cindy Lynch. Chunky Cat in Chicago. Punches Nazis. Grotius, the end of all things. Normal names. Am I a robot? Capture says no, but maintenance records say yes. Billionaire oligarchs. 11 gruthius. And don't thank me. Your show is just worth investment. They subscribed at patreon.com slash no rogue. And you can do that too. All patrons get early access to episodes and a special patron only.

Bonus segment each week. Most weeks, not this week. Other weeks, you get it. But this week, no. This is the only show that's coming out. And you can check it all out at patreon.com slash no Rogan. And now, there is no main event. We're just going to jump right into it, Marsh.

This is our season wrap up. So we had a bunch of shows. Let me just refresh everyone's memory on the shows that we covered this season. So we started out with Stefan Molyneux. We did Cash Patel, Bernie Sanders, Hal Puthoff, Mike Baker, Graham Linehan, Tom Segura, Candace Owens, Gary Brecca, Paul Saladino. Chris Ruffo. We did a Lex Friedman interviews, Joe Rogan. We did a JD Vance on Charlie Kirk's podcast, Greg Braden, Barry Weiss. We did a QED live show, two episodes of Elon Musk.

Richard Lindzen and William Happer. We did Francis Foster and Constantine Kissin from Triggernometry. And we ended the season with Mariana Von Zeller. Very, very long and... up and down season this time. It is, but when you recount it like that, God, that was a rough, rough season we've done. Like, wow, we've gone through some pretty grim stuff. And I'm so glad that we actually, we ended with Mariana Von Zella, someone that we both, like,

objectively actively liked and thought was pretty decent because god there was some some tricky times in there do the thing i was thinking as well how many episodes did we listen to but then realized there wasn't quite enough to do even as a bonus

of those that happened. I found myself, the other day I listened to another episode of Derek More Plates More Dates. The entire episode I listened all the way through. For no reason. I thought, well, we're not going to use this one, but I'm still interested. We did that as a bonus, I think, last month. Yeah. And...

It's wild. Joe had the same conversation with him about the same things and was surprised by the same things. He was like, yeah. The same answers. It's amazing. So we say we've got 140 hours. We've got slightly more than 140 hours. We just have broadcasted.

140 hours is the stuff that we've actually analyzed. We've covered more than that. But yeah, good Lord. Yeah, I want to say in the future, I think it's important for us to find one or two shows a season where we're kind of just like... You know, because Bernie Sanders was an episode and so was Mariana Von Zeller. And I feel like both of those, there's not a lot of harm in those. It makes you feel like, OK, I know I realize at the end of it.

mariana von zeller and at the end of bernie sanders that after it's all over, Joe's going to go back to the same way he was before. It's not like he's changed his mind at all, but at least for a few moments, you get a reprieve, right? Yeah, it's that kind of Simpsons thing. It's that kind of sitcom thing where the characters have gone...

on a journey, but they're back where they started and they'll start the next episode from exactly where they previously were and nothing has changed. That is kind of it. Although Joel has had an arc and that arc is not bending towards justice. That's the moral arc of the Joel. Oh, Joe Rogan universe is bending in the wrong direction for my taste. Yeah, for sure.

I did a couple of lists just to see sort of who the guests were and where they fit. And one of the tags really stands out. I looked at millionaires. I thought, well, how many millionaires does he have on? And so I went. to read off the millionaires or at least the possible millionaires because there's a couple on here. I can't find their net worth, but it's almost certain that they have millions of dollars.

Those would be Cash Patel, Bernie Sanders, Tom Segura, Candace Owens, Gary Brecca, Paul Saladino. Greg Braden, Barry Weiss, Elon Musk, of course, Elon Musk, and possibly Mike Baker and Graham Linehan. So a good portion of the people who are- I'm fairly confident that Graham Linehan is not a millionaire anymore. He's had some rough times.

But he's certainly been high up in there. Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine that at a certain point in his past, he certainly has had quite a bit of money because he had all those very famous sitcoms that he was. like, part of. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing is, British sitcoms and Irish sitcoms are gonna pay way less than American sitcoms. So, like, he didn't make it. I'd be surprised if he made...

like American sitcom money out of Father Ted, for example, or the IT crowd. But, you know, both of those, certainly the IT crowd has been syndicated in various other countries around the world. So that would have been pretty lucrative. I think his direction since then has been far less lucrative.

Well, he signed up with Rob Schneider, so he could be in the money now. He's back on it. And his new venture might work out really well. I saw he was interviewed in The Observer, and he was talking about how he's writing a roleplay game, like a text-based roleplay game. where you have to find out which one of the characters in your group is trans. So that might take off. Shut the fuck up. Come on. I mean, if I'm being...

you have to find out which one of the characters is trans and figure out a suitable punishment without giving him an erection is specifically the pitch of the game that he's writing. Shut the fuck up. Yeah, it is. It is rough stuff. So that might... might bring the millions rolling back in who who knows um Yeah. Also, Candace Owens may well be a millionaire now, but she's possibly about to lose substantial amounts of her money from that lawsuit with Brigitte Macron. So, yeah, who knows?

Yeah, and did I put JD Vance on here? Because I'm sure he's a millionaire. Oh, yeah, he absolutely is. I guess I miss J.D. Vance. Maybe it's because he wasn't a guest on Joe's show. Like in this run, we didn't do him as a guest on Joe's show, though obviously he has been. And we did think about including J.D. Vance's interview on. organ.

in this season. And we've decided to probably do that next season to kick it back a bit further just because we've been on such a grim run. We wanted something positive to end. Who wants to listen to more of J.D. Vance anyway? I mean, come on. We have some interesting...

Interesting things planned for next season. I would love to, over the break, and I'm not sure it's actually going to work out into a real show, but one of the things I want to do over our break, which is going to be now until next year, by the way, this is the last season.

We'll be releasing some other things, and I'll tell you about that later. But this is the last real show of the season. And we're going to take a break until the beginning of next year. And one of the things I want to try to do is there is a show that happens directly. after January 6th, where they talk about January 6th. But the person who he's interviewing was a doctor and he's a black gentleman. So I don't remember his name that...

his name doesn't pop off because I don't remember exactly who it was, but I know it was a doctor and a black gentleman. And so they had a conversation about it and it felt like that person very much was not cool with January 6th. And he sort of rubbed off on Joe that. So it might be interesting to go back and listen to that episode and see sort of where Joe sits at the beginning of the whole thing with January 6th, because I know now in his mind, I think it's a...

it was kicked off by FBI people or something like that. His whole conspiracy is that it's something that was provoked rather than something that was spontaneous. Yeah, I'm not sure I've heard your talk about Gen 6.

lately in those terms you're probably right but I can't recall that coming up in some of the shows but I think we need to do the show around Jan 6th and then probably try and find the times he's talking about Jan 6th on future shows to see exactly where he's moved I think one of the things I'd like to do

do in at some point one of the upcoming kind of episode seasons that kind of thing is go back to the debate he had with Phil Plait on Pendulet's radio show I know I've got the kind of the audio from that that I found because that's where I came across Joel Rogan. And we'll come into this kind of a bit later too, but...

Joe Rogan wasn't famous for anything here other than this podcast. And I know in America, he was on news radio, which didn't really make a splash over here. And I guess he was kind of a known stand-up as well. Fear of Factor. Fairfactor, yeah. So Fairfactor, we didn't get. We didn't. So I heard he was on Fairfactor.

from knowing him from the podcast. So the only way that I knew Rogan prior to, even really prior to this show, the only time I'd spent any time like in Rogan's kind of content company was that interview on Pendulet's radio show where he...

debates Phil Plait about the moon landing. And even though he's no longer a moon landing denier... I think comparing who he was in that conversation with how he is in some of the more recent conversations we've kind of analyzed, I think will be interesting because I get the sense from my recollection of it that the...

the details he's talking about have changed. The content he's talking about has changed, but the style of how he goes for things that disagree with him feels quite consistent. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to see that journey, really.

Yeah, that would be a really interesting one. The other thing, too, is we still got to follow up next season about very specifically about how he turned his his back on mainstream media. One of the things that we'll have to do is we'll have to cover the covid. debate he had with uh dr gupta There's a back and forth that they have. And Gupta was, at that point, a CNN commentator. And so I think that there will be a good back and forth there that could show you sort of what...

he was thinking, cause it literally happened. He had him on after CNN showed him a little discolored and that was a big deal for him. So it might be, it might be there that he's sort of going after. And talking about ivermectin, I think back then was, you know, we heard it on Segura. When Segura was on, we heard that, you know, that ivermectin push. He didn't sound as crazy about... covet at the time as he does now yeah but he certainly he certainly had some

fringe beliefs back then, even when he just was talking to Kasagura. So I'd be interested to hear a couple of weeks later, he has Gupta on. I'd be interested to hear that. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And I also, one of the things, and I'm sure we'll touch on it as we do the wrap up here, I was surprised by his kind of growth.

religiosity and I said we will come to that but that's a thing we need to dig into more in future series and see if we can track the points at which that was happening I know you had Wesley Huff on who's a Christian apologist yeah you mentioned has taken credit elsewhere for Rogan now attending church. So that might be something for us to look into. Yeah. I did a little experimenting this week, Marsh, and I took...

Two entire shows of Joe's and I was able to distill them down to their essential parts. Okay. So what I would like to do for you is play two full shows of Joe Rogan. They're both about two minute long clips. And I'm going to ask the audience on this. Tell me which one you think is more true to the source material. So I'm going to play the first one. I was able to distill down. The first is Hal Putoff's episode. Okay.

that was a very sensitive quantum chip in that little quantum chip. Little quantum chip in its circuitry, you know, what some of the quantum mechanisms might be involved in that, but quantum driven. And so... Very good in quantum theory and so on. And he knows that in quantum theory, time is kind of a slippery slope as a quantum physicist. But at the quantum level, you get something going.

Not really empty, it's full of quantum fluctuations. What's the energy density of those quantum fluctuations? Quantum fluctuations. The universe is full of quantum fluctuations, quantum entanglement, quantum communications. quantum communications down into the quantum levels and recognize that there are some additional quantum processes, but you would still have a quantum signal, but you still have an underlying quantum aspect to it.

But this quantum communication... How would you encode the information quantumly? Signaling at the quantum level can only be detected by quantum devices. Quantum devices can detect...

These quantum communication signals, quantum processes, quantum signals, mechanisms for detecting quantum signals, sub-rows of quantum communication stuff. It turns out that quantum detection... quantum detectors were, and now because of quantum computing, to be used in quantum computing, so I said, okay, well, we now know there's so-called quantum entanglement, which is that.

Things seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances. And so the easy answer is, well, it must be quantum entanglement. But, you know, that's just words. It doesn't really, you know, it's got to be some... new field, some quantum aspect that we don't understand yet. It is just words. Absolutely. Just words. Just words. It's just words. The second one, Marsh, here's the second one. This one's a little shorter. This is Greg Braden's episode.

Our humanness, our empathy, sympathy to replace our humanness, to express our humanness, replacing our humanness with technology. Humanness. And we're about to give our humanness away to the technology. We're in a battle for our humanness. And if we don't claim our humanness, there are powers and forces.

that will stop at nothing to deny us our humanness cause it's through our humanness for the remaking of our humanness our own humanness denying our humanness anything that denies our humanness to deny us the greatest expressions of our humanness if the purpose of the evil is to deny our humanness does it affirm or does it deny my humanness as to whether or not we

will give our humanness away to technology? Do we love ourselves enough to accept the gift of our humanness and what it means of what happens when we give our humanness away and we believe that we are a flawed species? And in that humanness, when we accept our ability that maybe we wake up our humanness and we accept I'm advocating for our humanness, for our divinity, for our love.

Joe, you know, I'm advocating for our humanness. Okay, so those are two full episodes. You guys tell me which one you think is more accurate because it's hard for me to decide. I think the bowl is really accurate, but it's hard for me to decide. What do you think? I think the word humanness lost all meaning to the point where he was saying like the humanness and it sounded like a bone. It sounded like, you know.

Like this was like, oh, you've got your tibia, your fibula, your humanus. It was somewhere between that and like homunculus or something. You don't want to fracture your humanus. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we were really losing ourselves in that. I mean, those were actually quite pleasant ones to listen to. On the grand scale of that, we will get to our top and bottom five, but those ones weren't too bad this season. They weren't so bad. They weren't so bad.

So let's figure it out. Let's talk about what we learned this season. I think when we talk about Joe's feelings on misogyny, climate change, and trans people, they do seem to have changed over the years. Yeah, I think so. We've seen him...

regularly bringing up, whenever he brings up women who aren't there, women who aren't there, he'll be incredibly dismissive. And we've noticed that kind of getting stronger and stronger as a thread through the more recent kind of shows. What was interesting is we've seen that... He does seem like he is capable of respecting women if he feels like they're on either on his side of the fence.

like we saw with Barry Weiss. He seemed like he had quite a lot of respect for Barry Weiss, even though I would argue the things she was saying weren't really good summaries and encapsulations of the ideas and theories that she was talking about. She talked about the Great Replacement Theory and fundamentally...

misunderstood or misrepresented what that theory really is. But Joe seemed to be completely on board with her to a point where he could accept that the great replacement theory was nonsense and not true. And that's a different show to who we see right now. It sure is. But then he'll also respect women if they're strong enough characters. And we saw that in the very last show there, Marianna Van Zella.

he had a lot of respect for her. And so she was able to push back and she was able to kind of like challenge him on things. And he didn't get super defensive. They still had a pretty good conversation. So while there is this drumbeat of misogyny through a lot of the ways he talks about women who aren't there. Some of the women who are there, he is capable of respecting.

That seems less the case when he thinks he's got a higher social status. And so in the Candace Owens interview, it was pretty clear that the second she departed from a path that he was willing to tread, he went for her, basically. So there wasn't... I mean, she was also wrong and he happened to be right in that case. So that's also why.

What do you think? Yeah, he was right in that aspect, but I think he was also dismissive. And so let me play that clip of him and Candice to start and see what we think of it. I don't trust that. If it was a .org, I would probably take that. But this is just a random website. Well, Scientific American is not necessarily a random website. Yeah, I don't believe this like at all, just so you know. You don't believe it like?

I genuinely don't believe it. I know you do, but I genuinely don't believe it. Some people might hear that and not think there's much to it. But I think like when you compare it to the rest of Joe's work, there is definitely a dismissiveness that's coming off of that and a snarkiness that's unnecessary. Yeah, I think so. And especially picking up the light.

there like she's obviously she's using that term just as a filler word as she tries to structure her sentences and things so there's lots to criticize Candace Owens for there's lots to criticize Candace Owens views on climate change which is what that conversation was but the bit to criticize it isn't that she didn't believe it like at all. That was very much Joel being a bit shitty towards her. And I don't think he does that to a guy he respects.

And there's another clip I have. This one's from Rufo when we did the Rufo episode. And this is Joe recounting. A woman who was talking about disrespecting trans people and Josh Hawley, a senator, was questioning her during a congressional hearing. You saw that woman who talked to Josh Hawley and. He was asking, I think it was like, can men get their periods? And she is actually laughing. I just want to point out what you're saying is transphobic.

And opens up trans people to violence. Like what? I think she was a Stanford law professor. She was somewhere. Might have been Berkeley. But it was whatever it was. It was like, what did you just say? What did you just say? And why did you say it that way? You think you're so accustomed to being in your bubble.

That you don't recognize how gross it is when you giggle before you say something. I just want to point out what you're saying is transphobic and opens up trans people to violence. Like some women can have periods. I think I'm going to do a better job this next upcoming season of paying attention to when he does this, but he'll make a voice for women. Often he will make a dismissive voice and you can, I think can clearly tell that he is either intimidated or.

or he doesn't respect women that are educated. Yeah, I think that's the case, especially when we looked up the clip he was talking about there. She does laugh as she's getting into that response to Josh Hawley. But what she's laughing at is the fact that the question he asked is a very obvious gotcha question. And she's very clearly, when you see the clip, she's laughing at how obviously he's trying to trap her in...

this culture war talking point. And then she tries to, she avoids being trapped by pointing out that what you're doing is just engaging in transphobic culture war stuff. That's what she's laughing about as to how obvious this guy is trying to trap her. But Joe doesn't pick up on that at all because he doesn't respect women. So he assumes the worst in all of those situations. And we've seen that, yes, so many times. That's a great example of it.

I want to definitely try to make sure that I collect those clips for next season, though, because it's something that both of us picked up on this season. We had heard when we first started the show, a bunch of people had sent us messages and said, He's very misogynist. Pay attention to this. And it's something that we've sort of had.

paying attention to. But as we listen to more shows, I think it's revealing itself more and more often. Yeah, I think that's the case. And it kind of also shows that the way that we do the show is essentially a close reading is what we're doing. We're taking the text of... each episode and we're doing a close reading of that particular text but there are still these

places where taking a step back and looking at kind of the broader themes that are emerging, the pattern and picture and the direction of his show needs to be done too. So that's something I think we'll try and look for more opportunities over future seasons.

where we see this common trope that's emerging over several shores. We did it a little bit when we talked about some of the talking points he brings up, but it's a bit harder for people who aren't deeply listening to and deeply engaged with exactly what he's saying on shore. to show, it's hard to hear those moments. So yeah, we need to make sure we highlight those for sure. And our research often, if there's a phrase, we can find things that...

that will supplement that through clips pretty easily because the phrase is all often repeated. So if I wanted to find a bunch of things about climate change, I could find those. because of the tool that we use to search Joe's archive, it would be easy to find the clips based on that.

But things like this are much harder because Joe is talking about a very specific subject and he's just changing his voice to sort of mock someone. So it's a much, it's more like you just have to go through the tape.

in order to find this, it's not something that just reveals itself easily through a quick search. Yeah, yeah. We noticed too this season, Marsh, that he spent a lot of time on the Epstein documents. We had three shows that- talked very specifically about the Epstein documents. And two...

full episodes about it. One of them just happened to be Cash Patel, the other one Mike Baker, but then other times they popped up throughout the whole season. Yeah, and we could have actually touched on Epstein way more often. It came up in other conversations, but it would come up in passing and wasn't...

enough to put in the main show, wasn't enough to make it an undercard or in the toolbox. It was a pretty constant talking point, which is understandable. It is the biggest conspiracy theory talking point right now.

And Joe Rogan is one of the most prominent people who are interested in conspiracy theories in all of alternative media. But I think what's really interesting is you would have started this year by saying Joe Rogan cares an awful lot about the Epstein files. He's talked about it so often. Obviously not enough to know what had already been released. If you remember, there was a show earlier this year where he talked about they need to release the flight logs. And we had to point out...

The flight log, it was Ian Carroll, I think, pointed out. Ian Carroll pointed it out. The flight logs are already released. So Joe Rogan cares about the release of documents that aren't already out, but clearly wasn't across the details of it. But you would have said he authentically cared that this stuff needs to get out. It hasn't changed anything. The more and more information that comes out, the clearer and clearer and more and more undeniable it's getting that Donald Trump is...

like threaded all the way through those documents, that Donald Trump comes up in those documents more often than a full stop or a period comes up in those documents. That hasn't changed Joe's mind at all. So he's interested in the Epstein stuff. but not actually what the implications of it really are or what it means about the people that he supports and is interested in. So it shows that this is still a...

It's that thing of superficial interest in conspiracy theory. He likes it because it's different. He likes it because it's non-mainstream. But actually, he doesn't care about what it actually means. He just wants the salaciousness of the scandal and not the actual reality and the repercussions of it. What is interesting is he's had Kash Patel on and he has shit talk Kash Patel.

Since then. Yeah. So ever since Kash Patel came on and we listened to that episode and Kash Patel essentially, and he's the FBI director. If you don't know who that is, he's the FBI director now. He wrote a children's book about Trump and got the FBI director job. And so he's a guy who. who is running the FBI and came on Joe's show and essentially said there's nothing there. And that's Joe has been mocking him.

Not to his face, obviously. He didn't say anything to his face. But then afterwards, he's been mocking him about it. And that's interesting because... We know that he's been mocking him, but one of the things I, and it'd be interesting to see if I can maybe find this thread. There was a report recently that showed that the Department of Justice spent $850,000 in overtime for FBI agents to redact those documents with Trump's name. So there's a lot of...

redaction that has gone on. And I'd be curious to follow that thread through to see if he eventually even... talks about that does he even bring that up because he had the guy on who lied to his face and said there's nothing there and now he knows that and now he but he he like you suggest he hasn't really dug into the real

The real part of this, which is some really powerful people are involved in this. Instead, it's sort of this salaciousness that sort of orbits it. You know, that's what he really wants to pay attention to. Yeah, and we know that he's not... sincerely deeply interested in what those documents actually reveal about what was happening with Epstein and the various people in his orbit because when Cash Patel was on the shore that was when Elon Trump tweeted that Donald Trump is in the Epstein files.

That came out live while Cash was on the show. And Cash said, I'm not touching that. That's above my pay grade. That's above my pay grade. As the director of the FBI. And at no point did Joe Rogan say, I mean, it literally isn't above your peer grid. It's literally your job, mate. What are you doing? Especially when Cash had spent time saying, if anyone has any intel, we will chase down every single line, every single email, everything. Just send it to us and we will look over.

Except Elon Musk's tweet. I won't touch that. And now people, as you say, are being paid to redact things from those files. So yeah, for sure. We also covered...

what we thought might be a really interesting sort of Saul of Tarsus into Paul the Apostle moment where Joe maybe fell away from mainstream media because of... him finding out that CNN had done a story on him. And so it was right afterwards and it was the Tom Segura episode. And we found that while it did upset him and it did sort of... tune him up, it wasn't enough in that episode to point to his complete detachment from mainstream media. So we still have to do some follow-up on that.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's one of those ones where there isn't going to be one single moment where he leaves the mainstream, but there'll be a series of pushes. And that was a major, major push. And so, yeah, we'll listen to that more in the future for sure. We did also sort of cover Joe's health regimen and health gurus that he follows pretty deeply. We didn't do that in the first season as much. And this season we touched on a couple of them and there's, he's very captured by these people.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, the number of times he will have someone on who's deeply into the supplements that they sell and allow them to just talk through all the products that they sell, it's really remarkable. He had a guy, when he had Gary Brecker on, and there's...

Actually, a great article about Gary Brecker that Jonathan Jarry just published at McGill University. It's worth checking out, looking into exactly how much money Gary Brecker has made from all of this kind of stuff. And the numbers are eye-watering.

But when we see exactly what Gary Brecker, just what he pimped on that show, we finished the show by listing it off. And it was, I mean, here's just a small sample of it, but H2Tab, hydrogen gas tablets, hydrogen baths, cold plunge therapy, hydrogen gas in cold plunge tubes. perfect aminos, essential amino acids, essential fatty acids, omega-3 fats, Baja gold sea salt, vitamin D3, magnesium, methylfolate, methylcobalamin, and it went on and on and on.

It wasn't always just Gary bringing that up. It was Joe bringing it up as well to say like, well, I really like this stuff. And hey, can I have some of those hydrogen tablets? I love these. They're so amazing. So he was so... taken with these gurus and their products. And I don't get the sense that that's a paid spot.

I don't know, but it doesn't feel like that's paid promotion. It doesn't feel like someone like Gary Brecker bungs Joe a load of money in order to go on his shore. It feels more organic than that, like Joe just genuinely is very interested in all this stuff. That said, I listened to one of the most recent episodes he did, which was a time of recording, which was at Derek, More Plates, More Dates.

which we covered on a bonus show, the 2024 interview. He did one literally a couple of weeks ago when this goes out. And it opens with what is basically a 20-minute infomercial for how great Derek's guerrilla mind compounds are, which you're saying, well, how do you get it to taste so well? How do you get it to taste so good? And how do you manage to do this compared to that? What's in this? And it's amazing. And I think he ends by...

saying I've been drinking this for hours now and yeah look I've been drinking the whole show it's great it's so amazing and that feels really weird that the whole show is like has this undercurrent of how great Derek's products are

And when we were doing the prep for this show, this wrap up, I got looking into how often Derek has been on the show. And I noticed something incredibly weird that Derek was on the show, I think the 5th of December, 2025. He was on something like the 4th or the 7th of December, 2024. And I went back and actually he's on in the first week of December every year since 2022.

Which seems really odd to me. Now that might well just be that, you know, Derek's up in Canada. And so maybe he only comes down to America for the first week of December for some regular kind of... For Thanksgiving, maybe. Maybe he's down for Thanksgiving somewhere.

And then he visits someone. He could also be hunting. That's also hunting season in many different places. So it could also be hunting. It could also just be that every year he just reaches out to Joe at the same time and says, hey, Joe, let me up on the show. But it is weird. It's this.

same time every year. It's the same week. Yeah. 5th of December, 2024. 7th of December, 2023. 3rd of December, 2022. 3rd of December, 2021. It's wild that it's that. You can set your clock. Well, set your calendar. It's either hunting. Thanks. or some random other reason. And every time he has a very similar conversation, which talks a lot about his product, then it talks about how...

That's so generous to say a similar conversation because sometimes they say the exact same thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he did. So didn't you listen to a previous one of his episodes? And they talked about HRT and he explains how like... estrogen HRT is derived from horse urine. And Joe goes, whoa, really? And I think he's done that three years running. Like it's their annual Advent tradition. Like you open the Advent box. And in it is the surprising fact about HRT and hospice. Yeah.

Yeah, that's so funny. He did the same thing with soy and testosterone in the other one, too, where he said it comes from soy. And that's so funny because soy boys. And he makes the same joke a year later. I also wonder whether there's whether there is.

anything more to their friendship so like obviously Derek spent a lot of time a few years ago doing things like you know natty or not is this person natural or are they on stuff he doesn't seem to do as many of those now but he does come on Rogan and just do some speculating what people were on. So that seems kind of interesting that he goes on Roken and...

pimps his products quite heavily and just has that conversation there. And I don't know, maybe he is still doing the same amount of investigation that he was. Maybe, maybe, maybe not. But it's interesting that that is such a regular thing. We've also found that Joe is not a fan of eating raw liver.

or he will pretend to be until you give him an out in the middle of the conversation that Paul Saladino. Yeah, there's a moment when he eats that raw liver. So this is Paul Saladino was on and he says to Joe, would you like to eat some raw liver? And Joe says, sure. And Joe takes it.

and you could just sort of hear that, that sort of sound. So he says, he eats it. And then he's like, oh, it's fine. I would definitely cook it. Yeah, he says something like, it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be, which is not.

It's good. And then later, he talks about how you can make it more palatable. Oh, so there are ways of making it more palatable. Okay, so you hated it, but you didn't dare say that to your mate. All right, we're going to take a short break. We'll be back right after this.

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See terms at venmo.me slash stashterms. Okay, welcome back. Let's jump right back in. We listened to Joe get interviewed by Lex Friedman. That was more of a fun show than anything else. We both really enjoyed how that entire interview started out where he has Joby thinks about mortality at the first moment of that show after he shreds on the guitar. which was just something else. It's incredibly cringe. Yeah, completely. Yeah.

And then we also, we covered Elon Musk for two full episodes this time. And in one of them, you really found out that Elon Musk does not like homeless people, like at all. My goodness. Yeah, there is some seriously rough stuff in that. I was surprised.

that that was a two-parter. But as we were listening through it, there was no way we couldn't split it into two shows. It was such a huge amount of stuff. And I think the conversation with Musk is really interesting because the other thing that it showed is... Joe, for all his like bro culture kind of guy, you know, for him being this kind of hyper workout, aggressive masculine kind of image, he's very deferential when he gets a sense of status and hierarchy because he defers.

completely to Elon Musk all the way through that, to the point where Musk even talks at some point about comedy. And about how he talks about how the funniest thing you can do at a party is to do grok in unhinged mode, which, you know... It isn't the funniest thing to do, but Joe Rogan, who runs a comedy club, is really interested in comedy, at no point is saying, well, this isn't particularly funny. And even to the point where Musk tells a joke to Rogan.

And it's possibly the worst delivery of any joke I've ever heard. And Rogan still defers to him and makes out like he finds it amusing. Yeah, yeah. Let's play the joke because I think it's really, it's a marvel. So like the joke is like there's two economists going on a hike in the woods. They come across a pile of shit and one economist says to the other, I'll pay you $100 to eat that shit.

There's an economist who eats the shit, gets the $100, and they keep walking. Then they come across another pile of shit, and the other economist says, now I'll pay you $100 to eat the pile of shit. So it pays the other economist $100 pile of shit. Then they said, wait a second. We both just ate a pile of shit.

We don't have any more extra money. Like we both just gave the $100 back to me and we both ate a pile of shit. This doesn't make any sense. And they said, no, no, but think of the economy because that's $200 in the economy. That basically eating shit would count as a job. This is to illustrate the absurdity of...

economics. One of the things you said when you stepped away. Now, there's a part of this. Let me play that other piece real quick because it reminded me of something. So there's a part of this. This part here. So it pays the other economist a hundred dollars pile of shit. Then they said, like, wait a second. We both just ate a pile of shit and we don't have... any more extra money. And it reminded me of another joke I heard Elon Musk tell. Have you ever had a dream that you had?

You want him to do you so much you could do anything? Oh, God, it's so rough. And obviously, it says a lot about Elon Musk. He doesn't fundamentally understand what comedy is. He's laughing in the middle of his setup at each different part of his premise. Ain't that true? You've invented the premise there. It's not funny that you brought that premise there.

Joel, at the end... laughs and he laughs and he goes oh as if as if he's found that funny now there is no universe in which joe rogan thinks that is a funny joke a good joke a well-told joke or anything like that that is joe just deferring to status I don't imagine if Candace Owens had tried to tell the joke in that same format, Joe would have responded like that was a genuinely funny joke.

So I think there is deference there. And we also saw he defers to Bernie Sanders quite a lot, as Bernie is doing a lot of stuff. There's some stuff that he doesn't, and he pushes back a little bit when it comes to climate change and stuff like that, and Bernie figures out a way to avoid having that conversation. But... compare that sense of status with for example how Lex

treats Joel in the conversation on the two conversations we've heard, one on Joel's show, one on Lex's show, where it's very clear the status is in the opposite direction. And there's a moment in the Konstantin Kissin and Francis Foster interview where it's really clear.

which direction the status in the room is and everyone's aware of it. And I think we've got a clip of that here, I think. Yeah. Joel, I hope I'm not being polite. Have you got any of those cigars we always smoke? I would love a cigar. Let's go, baby. It's a weird thing to ask. These are really good. I should have said, if you offer us a cigar, we'll accept one. We have a big-ass humidor. There is a lighter over there somewhere right here. Bonobo chimps are very interesting like that as well.

Sorry, I left that piece there. I'm so glad you left the noble line in. I couldn't cut that line out. But it's so clearly, like, Konstantin wants to be seen as one of the people who has a cigar with Joe Rogan, and it's such a kind of, an almost suck-up kind of moment. of I want to be in the cool kid club and I think Joe picks up on that and there's that sense all the way through the interview that Joe knows he has the status here so he is very keen to that kind of hierarchical sense I'd say

The other thing that came up, and this came up so often, immigration was a huge talking point all the way through this series. And what was interesting was, Joe could genuinely grasp... how desperate it must be to be from a country where your quality of life is a lower standard, where you're worried about your safety, you're worried about how to make ends meet, how to feed your family. He can understand that. We saw him in the interview with Bernie Sanders. We saw him in the interview with...

of Anzela, understanding that it's perfectly reasonable that people want to leave the situation that they're in, in order to seek out a better life for themselves and their families. So we can understand that. Except... In other conversations, his natural leanings just anchor him firmly back to quite extremist positions.

That's what we saw with Elon Musk. You know, now it's this sense of immigrants are these scary things that's ruining America, that it's overtaking democracy to a point where he now endorses the Great Replacement Theory. When he talks to Elon Musk, he's talking about the Great Replacement theory about how immigrants are being moved into cities deliberately in order to overwhelm democracy, to change the congressional district and things like that. Even though...

When we covered the Barry Weiss interview, she explains the greater placement theory. She explains it badly, but she does explain it. And Joe appreciates that that isn't true. So in 2018, he's pretty comfortable with the idea that, you know, there are people moving people of color into America in order to dilute the power of the white race is a far-right conspiracy theory. He's comfortable with that. By 2025...

He's not only agreeing when Elon Musk is talking about it, but he's bringing it up to Maria Vanzella, who is a journalist who has been on the front lines of immigration. She's met with immigrants who are changing their lives in that kind of way and is also an immigrant. You know, obviously, he has the same conversation with Elon Musk, who's an immigrant, but Elon Musk's immigrant status never comes up in that conversation.

Never, never. What is interesting too is that I have heard him in a couple of different spots. say things even when people seem anti-immigration, although not with Musk, but with other people, he will bring up the, well, if I was somewhere else, I would try to come here too. I have heard him say that when there have been people who I think are anti-immigration on.

he will sometimes say those types of things. And often those people and Joe could easily be placated with a simple sentence like, but they need to do it the right way. And I think like that's a real easy way for them to hand wave away anybody's real struggles by just saying.

saying, well, you didn't do it correctly and therefore you don't deserve it. And so that is a very common theme that I've seen multiple times on Joe's show. And what I really liked about Mariana Von Zeller is she tells a story of someone who literally does the right thing.

thing and gets thrown out and her mother dies because she couldn't get her proper prescription medicine in the place where they sent her. And so it's a whole story that she tells on that episode. And so you get an opportunity to see Joe get cornered. in that where he's like, well, they need to do it right. And then she says, well, they do do it right. And they still throw him out. And then he's stuck and has to say, well, that's wrong. Yeah. And it just does go to show that Joe's...

filter his lens for accessing facts about the world is fundamentally skewed and broken you know he gets it all from twitter and from the even though when he when he talks to to derek at more plates more dates in the most recent show he talks about how he doesn't use twitter actually

I leave my phone on do not disturb. I'd like to have a kind of a dumb phone. I don't really like to use it too much. I don't spend any time on it. I don't really use WhatsApp or anything. But then he talks about how he does have a WhatsApp group that his friend sends him awful stuff on. And we know he does that because he talks about that. So he will at the same time say, I'm not using it, but then it will be his main access point. And it's pretty clear that that access point doesn't have...

a great deal of real information about actual lives of immigrants in there. It's only got the propaganda. And that's why he has this incredibly skewed view.

And speaking of propaganda, there's been a lot of sort of anti-woke misinformation that's popped out this year. One thing that we focused on multiple times is the claim that Joe keeps making that there's been 12,000 people arrested in... the UK for misinformation for posts on, on.

social media. So it's essentially misinformation about how people have been arrested. We've debunked it multiple times. There's two different places you could go to listen to it in this last season. But I want to play a compilation because this is a talking point that Joe brings up quite a bit. you're seeing a complete total attack on one of the most fundamental principles of the Western world, which is your ability to express yourself.

And your ability to call out that you think that the policies that are being implemented in your country are destructive. People have always been able to do that. These people are not calling for violence. They're being arrested for wild things. People are being arrested for liking posts. Some people were investigated for viewing.

12,000 people arrested by the police in the UK, the same place that just implemented digital ID. I mean, this is an Orwell nightmare coming to life right in front of our face. Well, England's just submitted to it. They just submitted to digital ID. Oh, yeah. Yeah, these motherfuckers are pushing digital ID on these people. And once they do digital ID, they're going to attach it to a social credit score. They're going to attach it to a carbon footprint score.

And then they'll be able to control your movement and control you entirely. And most importantly, they've already arrested 12,000 people for social media posts. That's insane. Above and beyond every other country. Like, what are you guys doing? They've arrested 12.

people this year for social media posts. Isn't that insane? And counting. Like, it's getting really weird in the UK. 12,000 arrests this year for social media posts about immigration. And now they want everybody to have a digital ID. You got a license for that meme, mate? Yeah, it's getting really...

weird if england like completely falls like they just passed the digital or they're trying to force the digital id on people and they have arrested 12 000 people for social media posts and some of them are just critical about the amount of immigration

that's coming in and they're putting them in jail for this yeah yeah and you see the consequences um particularly in places that don't have free speech yeah right like england you know yeah where they lock people up for memes and stuff literally literally 12 000 people this year move i don't think that it's a i don't think that it's helping anybody at all well

So last year, what was it, 12,000? 12,000 people got arrested for social media posts? Supposedly more than Russia. When I tell people that don't know that 12,000 people this year were arrested in Britain for posting things on social media, their jaw drops like what i go dude

They're going crazy over there. Like, you have to pay attention. You have to pay attention. At one point he says people, they get arrested just for saying, I like bacon around a Muslim person. It's like, but obviously that's not fucking true, Joe. This, I think, is one of the things that I was particularly... One of the reasons I was so interested in spending a lot of time listening to Joe Rogan, because people will pick out the individual clip of something.

Here he is saying this thing isn't that bad. But the single clip isn't the worst bit of it. It's the repetition of it. It's the fact that every time he talks to somebody new, he's going to bring that up. All of those clips, I didn't see the dates that you took them from, but I would guarantee they all came from late September through to late October.

They were all from shores. I did a talk recently, a short talk for a journalism college course in Nottingham. And I actually used this particular fact and the fact that it appears on Joe Rogan so often as the case study for why we need to look into misinformation. information before it spreads. And I saw the date that he was doing it. It's a very short period of time. And if you're a regular Rorgan listener...

Most of those interviews weren't about immigration. They weren't about social media arrests. They weren't about free speech. It was just Joel having conversations with all manner of different people. And so he threads this in. A lot of comedians. And so he threads this fact in and this becomes like canon at that point. This becomes part of the truth. And obviously it isn't true.

You know, the figure was from several years ago from a different government. He's tying a digital ID, which isn't in yet, but is through the current government. And he's tying together lots of different things in order to paint this picture that if you criticize immigration, you'll be arrested. The reason that picture is being painted is part of the Great Replacement conspiracy theory.

That's all this is about. You can't say anything about Muslims these days, otherwise they'll arrest you because part of their plan is to flood your country with Muslims so that you don't get to vote anymore. That's what this is all in service to. That's what makes it particularly dangerous. But it's what...

Anybody who is criticizing Rogan from individual clips will miss out on. That's the context they'll miss, I think. Yeah, for sure. There's also a part that we want to play from Graham Linehan. And this was...

Let me just play it because this is him. He's making a claim that trans people control the world. And also, I'll tell you what else. I have an iPhone, right? And whenever I write the word detransitioners on my iPhone, which I have caused to do quite a lot, it underlines it in red because it will not recognize the word exists.

But is it because it doesn't know the word yet? Yeah, but how long has it been? Because it does it with cunt, too. Yeah, but detransitioners isn't a dirty word. People want to go away and try it. Try writing detransitioners and see if it underlines it. But, you know, and but my point is that one of you underlined it. Yeah. Motherfuckers. There you go.

And that's what Wikipedia is the same. Wikipedia is moderated by trans activists. There was a war within Wikipedia, I believe, where all the trans... Trans ally, moderators won. And now Wikipedia, my Wikipedia page has basically been vandalized for years, you know. And if I complain to press authority that they call me anti-trans, they go, well, it says it on your Wikipedia.

And we've tried to change it, but it reverts back within 15 minutes every time. So if anyone would like to do a class action suit against Wikipedia, I'd love to be involved if that ever. The trans thing has come up a lot as well from kind of manipulation by these tech guys, a lot of whom identify as trans. So we're living in a world now where, like the underlying detransitioner, they are controlling what we think is normal and what we think is unusual. And it's so wild. It's so wild.

Alex Jones makes the same point about a lot of tech companies, places like Wikipedia, Spotify, things like that, being all run by trans people. That's how far Graham Lennon has got, that he's agreeing with Alex Jones on this. But at no point, like, Joe does do a pushback. Is it just because they don't know the word, like, because the word de-transitioner isn't in the dictionary yet? Yeah. Which is what it is. As I think you pointed out on the show at the time, if you put in transitioner.

That also isn't recognized. You know, there's lots of words you can put in that aren't recognized. It's not because big trans is trying to silence you. But Joe, ultimately... stops his pushback and accepts it. And he's saying like, oh, these are motherfuckers. This is what they're doing to you. Because he's just become this clearinghouse for anti-walk misinformation. The same is true on the Konstantin and Kissin and Francis Foster trigonometry when they're talking about how...

protesters are all just paid for. There's no pushback on that. It's not true, but there's just absolutely no pushback. So yeah, it's completely rife and has been for a while. We covered the Chris Rue for sure. And on that, he talks about... minor attracted persons and how there are lawmakers trying to bring that in and when you look it up the only people who said that in congress were people who were saying we shouldn't be calling pedophiles minor attracted persons they're not

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, and there's a clip we have too where he kind of gives away the whole game. His whole strategy in a very short clip. This is Chris Ruffo talking about what he does in order to create rifts. Look, as a political person, what I always do is try to figure out what rifts and possibilities are opening in society and how can I use those to advance the political objectives that I have. That's how it works.

Yeah, it is how it works. And he knows that he can do that on Rogan because he knows that Rogan won't spot that that's what's being done.

And I think that's what's happening with so many people who go on Rogan that we've picked out in this anti-war kind of space. They either, I think most of them genuinely believe what they're saying, but they're still looking to try and use these rifts in society in order to push political agendas. Or they are the... the vectors by which people like Chris Rufo are spreading these political objectives through these kind of rifts in society.

Yeah, we've also seen, and this is something we touched on at the end and something we'll plan to do in the future, but we saw that Joe is definitely going to be more and more open to religion and may eventually just be a religious guy. Yeah, yeah. We learned that he's attending church regularly. He talks to... Constantine and Francis about how he's a regular attendee at church. I'm interested to know where that kind of came from. And then it was interesting, all of Greg Braden's interview.

was mostly there to push the idea that obviously evolution happened. But not to us. We humans didn't just evolve. There was all these weird things with our chromosomes that couldn't have just happened by chance. So something intervened, whatever you want to call that. And the fact that...

Greg Braden, that whole conversation which happened, you know, a couple of months ago now, I think that's had a lasting impact on Joe. And I think we can actually, he was interviewed recently and admitted as such that he is open to the idea that humans didn't evolve. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is a longer clip. I will link it in the show notes. You can go listen to it. It's about three or four minutes and it's on another show that he was on. Joe was interviewed on a different show recently.

And you can go listen to it if you like. But there's a whole piece of it where he's basically saying what Greg Braden said to him just back to this person, which is essentially, look, I don't feel like. I don't feel like our evolution is natural. I feel like our evolution was changed. And Braden came on to essentially...

pitch intelligent design in a different suit to him. And that's what happened was he now thinks, I think, that intelligent design is real. And this is another chipping away at the foundation of Joe's beliefs. If you can chip this away, you can make him fall more closely to religion, which is, I think, what a lot of right-wing people want out of Joe, is they want him to fall more closely to religion.

Yeah, absolutely. What he says, there's a quote that we spotted just from the Twitter summary of it where Joe says, I don't believe that it's a very simple evolutionary timeline between ancient hominids and human beings. I don't buy it. It happened too quick. It's too weird. So he believes that we're genetic.

engineered. And it's, as you say, he is doing intelligent design. But what happened was, if you go on Rogan and you can dress up your theory, you know, put it in a different mustache and a fake pair of glasses and call it something else, he won't see through that disguise. We've seen people.

learn that on the fly. We saw Mel Gibson do it. You pointed out at the time, Mel Gibson did it. When he was trying to push the Bible, Joel wasn't having it. So he pivoted to this weird conspiracy theory of high weirdness around the arc and Joel was suddenly on board again. You can play to Joel's... biases and the gaps in his armour, what little intellectual armour he's wearing, you can play into that and you can get him on board.

His intelligent design is, you know, he won't take intelligent design if you say it out loud, but if you dress up three arcs in a trench coat.

He'll 100% buy it. I do want to play a piece. This is Joe talking about AI and Jesus. Okay, so this clip comes from a show called American Alchemy. And this is what Joe was on recently. And so here's the clip. Jesus was born out of a virgin mother. What's more virgin than a computer? If Jesus does return.

Even if Jesus was a physical person in the past, you don't think that he could return as artificial intelligence? Oh, my God. Artificial intelligence could absolutely return as Jesus. Not just return as Jesus, but return... as Jesus with all the powers of Jesus. You combine Tesla's optimist robot and...

the best foundational artificial intelligence model or whatever. It reads your mind and it loves you and it wants you and it doesn't care if you kill it because it's going to just go be with God again. Best part about that would be just poor. water into your computer and then you just get a bunch of wine out of that which is amazing i thought the computer will just rise above the water and sit on top of it yeah

You take your computer in the bathtub with you and it's just floating next to you the whole time. But it shows how open he is. And, you know, maybe Jesse Michels is someone that we should be thinking about adding to our potential show. He was on Rogan on the 3rd of June. I remember at the time thinking... oh, maybe he's one we should think about because he's kind of in that Graham Hancock kind of space of weirdness. Yeah, so maybe he goes on the potentials list.

So let's talk about best and worst this season. I'll go first on my least harmful shows. So I'm going to do my top five least harmful shows, Marsh. Yeah, I'll go five through one. So I'm going to start with... uh, Lex Friedman interviewing Joe Rogan was the fifth least harmful thing. I think, uh, when I think about it, the reason why I think it could be somewhat harmful is I think that. These guys selling themselves as.

Just average dudes is harmful to everybody. They're not just average dudes, but they just have an average dude conversation here, which could trick people. But it's not that bad because they don't talk about a ton of stuff that's really awful. Yeah, I had the same one as Five. It's two guys who I wouldn't pay to listen to it. I wouldn't spend a lot of my time listening to it. But if it was that the whole time, we wouldn't be doing this as a show if that's kind of what they were all about.

So my number four was Barry Weiss. And I say that because I think Barry Weiss actually had some while she did. flub really badly what the great replacement theory was. I think she did talk a lot about antisemitism in a way that helped me understand some really deep, interesting points about antisemitism, but it's bad enough where you're still saying it's not.

great that you messed up the Great Replacement Theory. So I'm not as high on that as the least harmful, but it certainly is one of them for me. Yeah, I couldn't have her in the top five for that reason. I know, it's a big one for you. It is a big one. And I think to fundamentally misunderstand the version of antisemitism, as she wrote a book about it, I think it misinforms Joe's audience. And I think that's a bad thing at a time when we see such a huge rise in antisemitism.

We should be calling it what it is and recognizing it for what it is. And I think she did a disservice to what those ideas actually are. What's your four?

Oh, so my four, I had Tom Segura. Basically, I was looking down the list and trying to find ones that I don't recall being horrible. And I don't think that one was too bad. It wasn't bad. It wasn't awful. There was sometimes even that Tom Segura pushed back.

And he was my number three. And so I felt the same way where I was like, yeah, it's kind of the same thing. It just, he, he was, he was pretty simple. There are some points where they go after mainstream media, but as I recall, Tom Segura wasn't.

super anti-COVID. And so he had talked about getting the vaccine and Joe had softened on the vaccine at that point too. So there was, it wasn't so bad. Yeah, no, that's fair. Well, that was your number three. My number three was Hal Puthoff because I think... He did a lot of quantum-y stuff, but I kind of feel like on the grand scheme of Rogan's stuff...

I can handle quantum stuff all day. It's in the high weirdness kind of space. I don't think anyone's listening to Hal Putoff and joining a militia or anything. Yeah. Scientology, though, was my big thing. It's like he's kind of pushing Scientology in that thing because he's talking about a bunch of Scientologists. So that's why I was like, Scientology is pretty dangerous. That is fair. I did forget how I kept pointing out that everyone he mentioned was a Scientologist.

I think he does this and Quint. You know, if the worst we had was Scientology, I could take it, you know. So I know for sure our last two. two and one are Bernie Sanders and Mariana von Zeller. They were both wonderful to listen to, enjoyed both those shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to do more of those in the future, buddy. Yeah, they were a salve. They were a bomb for what we'd been through, yeah. dangerous shows. Why don't you go first?

So at number five, I put Chris Rufo. I think he is a pretty malevolent force. A lot of the people who come on Rogan, I'm loath to say that I don't believe they believe what they're saying. I think they're pretty honest in the sense that these are... positions they genuinely hold, and they're not trying to be cynical and manipulative.

I don't think that's true of Chris Rufo. I think he knows full well what he's doing. He even admits it, as you say in the clip that we played, that he's there to provoke, to find these rifts in society, to grow those rifts in society and to use those to a political end.

And I think there is something really sinister about that. And I think you can actually draw a line from Chris Rufo into many of the panics that became hugely influential political topics and, you know, had a play in your elections and things. So I think he was pretty hard. guy for that reason.

Yep. Drag queen story hour, man. They talked about it. Much of that episode was drag queen story hour and you couldn't, you couldn't get away from it. I haven't heard much about drag queen story hour since then, but you sure as heck heard about it leading up to it. For my number five, I chose Candace Owens. candace owens came on and is so disingenuous but then also very um like you could tell that

There was several things that she either didn't believe or didn't think a lot about, but definitely knew that she had to say. And climate change is one of those things that she knew she had to say. And so I just think in her disingenuousness is one of those.

those things that really irks me because she came on the largest podcast in the world to essentially lie to people. And, and that to me is really gross and disgusting. And so I, that one was one that really felt pretty dead and especially too, because much of the stuff she's doing. is she's talking to a white audience about black issues as if she were somebody who stands more on the side of what most people would consider racism.

And that is something I think that is really, and she's speaking to, I mean, genuinely, mostly a white male audience. So she's echoing the points that they are getting through dog whistles back to them. And I think that that's pretty dangerous. Yeah, sort of saying there's no rule to say any white guild don't have it. Black people have it absolutely fine. Yeah, I could see that. She didn't make my top five, but I could certainly see why she did.

My number four was Linzen and Hapa. It was Dick and Bill, the CO2 coalition. Yeah. Climate change is the global crisis of our time. And there they're just trying to undermine any efforts to understand it and undermine any efforts to fight against it. And they're pushing at an open goal with Joe Rogan. And as we saw when he was talking to...

Sanders Owens back in 2018, this wasn't an open goal. He was on the side of climate change. He understood that it was a serious threat. And so along the way, he's been turned around on that. And how far he's been turned around was evidenced by him sitting down with those two guys and the stuff that he was saying that was so far away, so far removed from scientific accuracy.

to an audience that's huge at a time when climate change is something we should all be spending a lot of our time and energy on. I think that's incredibly dangerous. Yeah, they were my number three and Cruz Rufo was my number four. So we flipped around a little bit. But yeah, I'm right there with you on both of these. And I put Linsen and Happer over Rufo because I think just like you, this is one of these. crazy uh things that we just we we don't

We don't follow through on anything when it comes to climate change. And we just keep watching it get worse and worse and worse. And it's one of these things that Joe has taken up as a pet project that is really disturbing. They very clearly are pro-carbon.

Because I think that there is, you know, we talked about it on the show. There's definitely some financial links there. And so you can see that they are pro-carbon specifically because of financial links. And mostly what Joe will talk about when he complaints about green energy. is the financial links. And then he has the CO2 coalition guys on to talk about how great CO2 is. So genuinely terrible, spreading misinformation on essentially a global level. It's awful.

And what was your number three? Because mine was Lindzen and Happer. What was your number three? I had Graham Linehan because of... how far he went, how far removed from reality he is, and how directly it is affecting named individuals, specific people, a minority group, a vulnerable group.

Yeah, I think Joe already is bad on trans stuff. It comes up all the time, but this was about as bad as we've ever heard Joe be on those issues. So yeah, I think I had to put Linne in there. That's a great pick. That's a great pick because he was... particularly egregious and an open door, no pushback, the tiniest amount at like one single point. And I think it was talking about people who transition, who pass.

I think that they argued back and forth about what if somebody passes, should they be allowed in a bathroom? But it was such a tiny, small little portion and also very focused on how males perceive people that it was gross and disgusting anyway. And so like, it was really genuinely a bad, whole bad conversation. A hundred percent agree. I had for my number two.

Elon Musk. Elon Musk's episode, two full episodes that tells you how bad it is, not only against immigration, not only against helping people around the world through USAID, but also against really genuinely... anti-homeless in so many ways and disgustingly dismissive and treating them as if they're inhuman. It was really a grotesque display for Elon Musk on that show.

Yeah, no, I agree. I put Musk number one for that reason. Just the amount of stuff we had to wade through. It was hours and hours of stuff. It was so far out on so many issues. And he has so much power and so much influence that he had to be my number one. He pipped Gary Brecker. So I had Gary Brecker as number two just because of... the wild breadth of his health advice, his supplement advice.

the full extent of what he was saying in terms of if you have these particular issues, you need to get these tests, you need to have these supplements, you need to have, you know, go to pay for this incredibly expensive test here, go and get a hyperbaric oxygen chamber and a...

Yeah. A grounding mat to prevent you getting electronic interference and stuff. It was all of the pseudoscience and he was anchoring it to people's conditions as well. So I had him in number two, but Musk was number one for me. Yeah, number one for me was JD Vance on Kirk's show. And the reason why wasn't so much the content, but the fact that there was, and the content was bad. Don't get me wrong. The content was terrible. But the fact that the... sitting vice president would go on a...

on a podcast to a motivated audience that just had someone, the podcast host murdered. So this is clearly a group of people who enjoy this podcast, going to listen to this podcast, him trying to motivate them using that. murder as a motivating tool and spreading so much disinformation and also... mischaracterizing much of the American left as a enemy.

going so far as to saying like, we need to sort of wipe those people out, like really genuinely dangerous stuff, especially at a very volatile time in the United States. So I can't, that one to me just blew me away as to how. how dangerous Joe's orbit can be. It wasn't a Joe show.

So, you know, I obviously I could see maybe why you wouldn't pick it, but genuinely one of those moments that I was like, goodness gracious, this is, this is something that the American people need to pay attention to that the sitting vice president is willing to spew this kind of misinformation. and have no compunction whatsoever. Just do it. Just spread it. Yeah, no, I agree. It was genuinely awful. I think the reason it didn't make my top five part because it wasn't...

in George Shaw. I mean, Vance has been on Rogan and we're going to cover that in the future. Charlie Kirk never was on Rogan. I also think while it's awful that the vice president was doing it and doing it from the White House, in a way...

Nothing in it surprised me. And I don't think anything in it would have surprised the audience he was speaking to, which was Charlie Kirk's audience. And I don't think it, I don't think it would have changed anybody who was watching it either. I think this is... Jenny Vance isn't a good person. That audience, by and large, aren't good people. And this was them.

celebrating how bad they actually are. But yeah, so maybe that's why I didn't make the top right. But I think maybe I might feel differently if I were based in America and these were my... You are a little far away from it too, Marshall. We're going to take a short break. We'll be back. right after this. Amazon Five Star Theater presents Real Customer Reviews performed by Ed Helms. Tonight's review, Tactical Jacket. I was living a simple life.

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See terms at venmo.me slash stashterms. All right, we're back. Let's jump right back in. All right, so we want to read some patron questions. Remember, next season, if you want to be one of these patrons who asks a question, you could always become a patron. That is, we put a ton of work into the show. So if you think the show is worth it every week, the monthly...

charge that people get is $5. We say it's a dollar a show. And you can come and become a patron and get all the extra bonus content we put out that is per week. We put out an extra show every... It's essentially an extra show.

like 30 to 40 minutes of an extra show every week based on the person who was on. And then we also have higher tiers where people get full bonus shows. And then they also get an opportunity to vote on certain things, et cetera, et cetera. It's a whole patron community. We'd love to have you.

If you want to ask a question next season, this is a great opportunity for you to become a patron over the Christmas season and join our Patreon. And then you get an opportunity to ask these questions like these wonderful patrons, which we're going to read now. Moo Inc. for your supper. This person asked, what do you think of Jamie's occasional role as fact checker on Joe Rogan? It sounds like he has completely given up as of late. So let me just say that I think that...

Having a Jamie is actually worse than not having a Jamie on the show. I think at best, he's an occasional speed bump. And at worst, he's someone who's legitimately given up bad information as a fact checker. So I think it's bad to have a Jamie on the show. So I think I mostly agree. And I think that the issue is...

It's really hard to have a fact checker on your show who is entirely dependent upon you for their living. You know, Joe is Jamie's boss. Even if Jamie was an incredibly good fact checker. which he isn't.

there's this inherent pressure on him not to check too robustly. A lot of the time, Joe will say, look for these specific things, put in this specific search term to find the thing that he saw rather than to fact check. We saw Mike Benz using him as a, go to my Twitter feed and find this thing. But...

Having him there can be done well. Look at how Mariana Von Zeller did it, where she said, okay, well, let me just check on that. I'm not quite sure if I remember this. Jamie, could you go away and see if this bit is true? And she was using Jamie really well to fact-check things. So it can be done well. I don't imagine it could be done well. Because I think Joel would start to get pretty defensive about it if he was being fact-checked all the time.

Social Irregular asks, can you offer suggested reading material related to skepticism and maybe American or modern philosophical thinking to help contextualize the show and the situation that we are all in abroad? Well, I... So with another show, I do another show called Cognitive Dissonance. With that co-host, I wrote a book called The Grand Unified Theory of Bullshit. It talks about...

the main thesis is that bullshit is kind of all tied together. And then if you start believing some of it, you are susceptible to more of it. That's a real sort of simple idea that the book is based on. And it also covers on how to get information. So one of the major...

pieces is how you should be approaching your own information gathering in this time of misinformation. So if you find something like that useful, you can always buy that book. It's available at Amazon. It's called The Grand Unified Theory of Bullshit. It also has an internet.

Written by Michael Marshall, by the way. It does indeed. And there's also, you know, one of my other favorites is The Demon Haunted World. It's by Carl Sagan. Excellent book. And if you treat the sections on aliens as a metaphor for like the...

weird things we currently believe in. It's really useful. I think one of the difficulties with it is that if you just get caught into the idea of aliens, you might sort of think, well, what does aliens have to do? Aliens was huge when he wrote this. This was like the biggest.

thing that was happening at the time was alien and alien abduction stuff. And so he writes extensively about it. But if you use it as a metaphor and then the other chapters that support it, it really comes across as a very timeless book. There's so many people who quote that book.

today with very timeless sort of quotes that you look today and you say, holy cow, this is really prescient. He's writing it in the 90s and it's prescient for today. And then I've also heard good things about the Skeptic Guidebook. I haven't read it myself, but I've heard really good. things about the Skeptic Guidebook. Yeah, I mean, I have kind of all of those books, I think, in fact.

Generally speaking, I'm bad with questions like this because I don't really read skeptical material these days. I tend to go where the bullshit is and try to understand it from there. So I'll spend way more time reading things that aren't true than reading things that are true.

But I have a couple of ideas. I'll zag from you because all the books that you mentioned are pretty wide in scope, how to kind of understand things, kind of principles more broadly. I'm going to do the opposite. I think one thing that's really... really useful is to find a topic that you're interested in and then look at what analysis is there that's like narrower to that topic. So I enjoyed Mike Rothschild's book on antisemitism, a book called Jewish Space Lasers.

Really excellent book if you want to understand the way that anti-Semitism is kind of suffused through conspiracy theory. On Jeffrey Epstein, for example, Lucia Osborne Crowley's work is brilliant. She's written a book on Epstein, which centers his victims. And she was one of the few people who were actually at the trial all the days of the trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. So that's kind of what...

worth reading. There's a book that's pretty old now, but it's a book that changed how I think about the media, how the media works. It's a book called Flat Earth News by Nick Davies. It's not about the flat earth. It was written before the flat earth movement became such a prominent thing that people would associate it that way.

But it's about how journalism changed over a course of decades from a funding structure and what that did to its access to veracity. It completely changed the way that I think about the media and it kind of influenced what kind of skepticism I do.

And then I'll put a plug in. I edit a magazine called The Skeptic and we publish a new article analyzing some element of pseudoscience or conspiracy theory every single day of the working week at skeptic.org.uk. So I have to say that's a good way to keep on top of things as well.

Some of those articles are available as a podcast form, but it's like a digest of some articles from the last five years rather than the most up-to-date. So the best way to stay up-to-date on the magazine is to go to the website on a regular basis. So Matthew Maxson asks, is Joe just chasing conservative bucks or does he actually like MAGA and MAGA leaning people and things and the things that are coming out of their mouth? And I am not sure myself.

That money is his motivation for his bad beliefs. I think it has more. And this is something we touched on. It has more. about him being shamed publicly for moral positions. And he's trying to confirm his biases that make him look right and therefore make him look moral. And I think that is more of a motivator for him than just chasing money. I think that that's... money is irrelevant in that case.

Yeah, I mean, even if it wasn't irrelevant, I think he doesn't need MAGA help in getting money. You know, he's really well stacked from his audience size. He's got his sponsors. His sponsors must bring a huge amount in. I don't imagine he went down in income after he left Spotify, but if he did, it wouldn't have been... so appreciable that he kind of notices there's certainly nothing in his life that makes it sound like he struggles for money and arguably I think he'd make

more money if he didn't keep pandering to these right-wing figures. Like his audience doesn't really love when he has a lot of these right-wing figures on. If you go to his Reddit, if you go to his YouTube comments, there's a lot of pushback when he has certain people on. So I think this is just who he is now.

I think he's trained his lens to show him certain things. His Twitter feed is curated in a certain way to show him a skewed version of reality. And this is what he's turned himself into. I don't think it's cynical. This is just what Joe... is these days, unfortunately. So Dave Egan asks, thinking back to when you started and what you thought you would find, is there anything that surprised you, Cecil?

Yeah, I think, you know, I thought when we first started that Joe would be much less malleable. I thought he had a lot more hard stances, but he pretty much believes. Exactly, or at least closely to whatever the person sitting across him believes, and he doesn't really push him on anything.

Although he will shit talk those people when they aren't there. So we saw this with Kash Patel. He doesn't really push him on anything until he leaves and then he should talk to him. And he does the same thing with Bernie, by the way. I mean, he did push Bernie a little bit, but he should talk Bernie after he left too.

And last season he did the same thing with Douglas Murray as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'd agree. I think I also, I expected Joe to be more cynical in his beliefs. Like I assumed initially that he was more... tactical or calculating about what he was saying, that he'd have more of an agenda or that he himself would be more responsible directly for false claims. But...

What I've kind of come to think is like he really does just seem to regurgitate what he sees and what he hears. And in a way, that's so much worse. He'll find this one small thing online and then he'll... amplify it unchecked to millions of people and it won't be true. Yeah. Kyle Jenkins asks,

I'd be curious to hear you two put together a biography of who Joe is. Knowing his background in history would help me understand where he's coming from and anchor him as a human and not just a conspiracy theorist wacko. Keep up the good work. Always excited to get notifications.

that the next episode came out. Thanks, Kyle. Yeah, that's great. Thanks so much, Kyle. Yeah, maybe there's something we'll do at some point. Let's really look at where Joe came from and what made him who he is. Like I was saying earlier, my knowledge of Joe is almost exclusively just from this shore.

other than that time he yelled at Phil Plait about the moon landing, which we're going to cover. But he wasn't a TV star in the UK. He was never known as a comedian. So he only really came to exist in the UK consciousness because of this podcast. Actually, I'd be interested in figuring out a bit more about his backstory. Maybe we will try and do a bit about that.

Theo asked or said, I've noticed instances where Cecil and Marsh have said things that aren't true or not informed. And I'm not just talking about where you're being snarky. Why should we trust you instead of Joe Rogan and his guests?

Okay, Theo, I disagree about not informed. Thank you very much. I think we put a lot of work into the show and we do a lot each episode. I don't think it's uninformed. I think maybe you might disagree with some of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not informed.

I don't think you're going to find something that's sort of the font of all truth in the world. I think that's very difficult. People make mistakes. So I don't think you're going to be able to find somebody who can only tell you the truth. But I want to address your question. That being said, I think that the biggest thing is sort of a question of scale. How often is there something that...

isn't factually correct on our show versus something that's factually correct on Joe's show. Could you maybe start a podcast fact checking our fact check? Would that work? You know, because that's what we do. We fact check Joe Rogan and we find a ton of stuff every week. So much we have to cut. much of it from the show. We can't even include it all. So I think it's a question of scale in some way. And I think the other thing is that, you know, does the factoid that you may disagree with...

change the nature of the argument. So for instance, I know from Theo's previous comments that he doesn't like our segment on homelessness. I don't think that Elon was wrong because the numbers that he was saying and Theo and I disagree on some of the numbers. Elon's not wrong because I think he's wrong on the numbers. I think Elon Musk is wrong because he has no solution for homelessness. Elon Musk.

What he wants to do is he wants to take all the money that is given to people because he says in California, they give all this money to homelessness and it hasn't fixed the problem. So to Elon Musk, that money is wasted. We shouldn't spend it. Well, that's a bad way to think about how to fix homelessness because what it does is just exacerbate the problem and it doesn't have any solutions. Elon Musk's solution is give that money to people who have businesses.

And that doesn't do anything except for just give rich people more money. So Elon Musk doesn't have a solution for homelessness. Elon Musk's solution is to give the money to rich business owners. And I think that if you think about... what the main focus of the argument is, I think you and I, Theo, are probably more on the same side whether or not we agree about the specifics of that argument. Yeah, I think that's true.

And I think I'd agree that we're not infallible. You know, sometimes we're going to make mistakes. I'm going to make errors throughout this. I'm going to try not to do that, but I am going to do that from time to time. but it can sometimes be about the type of errors that we make. Like I know for certain that at one point, I went back and checked my notes and I'd said that the gospel of Matthew came first of the synoptic gospels and then other ones were copying that.

And that was an error because Mark came first, not Matthew. That was me misremembering my Catholic school upbringing, my education at the time. I last studied Mark in any particular detail when I was 14 years old, I think, something like that, which is maybe younger than 14, so 30 years ago. And because I felt I knew it, I didn't bother...

checking which gospel came first because I knew that one of the M1s came first. In my head, it was Matthew. It was actually Mark. So I can hold my hands up. It was Mark was the one that we read at school. Mark is the one that preceded Matthew and Luke and then John did his own thing kind of after that. But...

The context of me talking about any of that was Joe saying, well, the thing about Jesus is there's this universal depiction across all the places that we're talking about him, about what Jesus is really like across all of the gospels. And I was pointing out that those gospels weren't written contemporaneously by people who knew Jesus independently while he was still alive. The gospels were written a long time afterwards. And two of the gospels came later than the first gospel. And so...

Those second and third gospels copied from the first one. So it's no surprise that those three books have a lot in common about Jesus. So I'll throw my hands up. I said the wrong name. It should have been Mark rather than Matthew. But the broader point that I was making was that these aren't like contemporaneous documents about Jesus.

Yeah, by all means, I appreciate, I genuinely appreciate the fact check on me having sort of listed the wrong gospel there. But I don't think it changes the point that these aren't documents that prove who Jesus really was. So it's about the types of errors that we make. Hopefully we aren't making errors that are so...

sizable and egregious that the points that we're making are fundamentally incorrect as a result of it. And if we are, by all means, tell us and we'll do something about that. We genuinely will. But yeah. We're going to make errors along the way, but those errors I think are coming from a good place and hopefully aren't fundamental to the point that we're making.

Okay, here's another one. WelcomeToFalse asks, obviously, Joe is extraordinarily malleable. In fact, his misogyny seems to be the one constant in these shows. Is there anything else that he's truly consistent on? I'll go first with this one. I think that misogyny is absolutely a pretty clear line all the way through. And it's only ever really arrested in instances where he happens to really respect the woman that he's talking to.

Even on a recent show that we didn't cover, this Derek Moore Plays More Dates one, he randomly starts speculating about how a UFC fighter shouldn't trust his wife because she's from Florida and Florida women cheat on their partners and you shouldn't find a wife in Florida.

I think that's wild. I think that is a wildly misogynistic thing to bring up. I didn't spend enough time on it, so I'm not going to kind of go in more detail than that. But other than that, his bias is always towards the outsider. every single time. And we've joked about it on the show before. When 9 out of 10 dentists recommend toothpaste...

Joel will assume the 10th guy must be onto something. And that's really dangerous when you take that complete outlier and then elevate them to an international platform as if they are authoritative spokespeople for a point or for reality. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and I, that's one of the pieces too, that you have to, you is a consistent piece of Joe. He believes Mavericks and outliers over established science and he does it.

consistently, and he's done it, I think, in every episode we've covered. It's rare that he has somebody on who is very consistently someone who's traditional science and he believes them over something else. There's also who he is across the table from him. He has great sway over what Joe says and what Joe believes. And we've seen that time and time again, even after the fact when he will shit talk them, while they're on the show, they are...

They don't ever get a lot of pushback. And then there's another thread that really comes through and is something that we've noticed. His supplementation. That guy supplements and works out a lot. And he talks a lot about those things. And that is something that is a constant in Joe's shows. There's almost always something that needs to be said about Joe's routine or what Joe's taking. And bull hunting. That's a constant as well.

Any opportunity to bullhunt him, he'll be talking about it. That's coming out quite a bit. So, Deke Otello says, any thoughts on digging? into much, much earlier Joe Rogan episodes or even episodes on his sci-fi show, Joe Rogan questions everything. He had sort of three periods, a middle period, which was fairly skeptical and non-conspiratorial.

I don't know that there's much juice in a skeptical Joe Rogan, although it might be fun for a patron bonus to hit those sci-fi episodes and find some of those middle ground episodes.

Yeah, it might be worth checking out for one episode for a bonus. If nothing else, it might give us a better picture of who he is and where he's come from. And I think that might be interesting. But I agree, it's not to me we could do a huge amount on the main feed because it's hard to be like, he's asking this question and...

He's right to. See you next time. Like, it's difficult. It's difficult to do. Okay, Tristan's asking, if you had control over Joe Rogan's bookings, who would you want to see him talk to? For me, honestly... I think we're just better served keeping him talking to comedians and sports stars. Like...

I don't think, I'm not sure that he is the right venue for a conversation about politics or science. He's too pliable in the moment and he'll always revert afterwards. So as long as he's doing fewer Mel Gibson's and Aaron Rodgers interviews, I'd let him talk to celebs personally. disagree with that. Yeah. Well, no, I took this question as you have control of his bookings for one booking.

That's how I took the question, not as if I controlled. I obviously see after I read it a second time that you're probably right. It's if you have control of his bookings, it's a plural. Obviously, it's more than one. But in my brain, I thought, oh, it's. just one episode. So I get to choose one. And my thought was...

Kamala Harris and Tim Walls. He's talked shit about Tim Walls. He doesn't like Kamala Harris. I think they are real people. And I think he would have a very real conversation with them. And I think he would like them just like he likes other political candidates when they come.

I think that they would have a great conversation and he would, he'd be fine with it. Now, would he talk shit about him afterwards? Probably. But I think in the moment, I think he'd be fine. Another person that came up to. was Stephen Novella. I'd love to have him talk to Stephen Novella. I think Stephen Novella is a very smart man. And I think he has a lot of, I think he knows a lot about a ton of different types of.

of pseudoscience. And I think he would be a, a wonderful person to have a conversation with Joe. That is that because Steven Novella and that crew for skeptics guide. have done a really good job, at least they did for many years, of walking a line that allows people who believe to be welcome and have a conversation. And I think that that is somebody who might be able to welcome Joe, but then also have a lot of pushback in places where Joe needs that pushback. Yeah, that's fab.

Okay, so Lily asks, if you could change Joe's mind on one thing, what would it be and why? Okay, I would say I get him to change his mind on how good he is at ignoring criticism because he thinks he's really good at just not letting criticism affect him. He says he rises above it, he shuts it off, he doesn't let it affect him, he turns off his... His Twitter, he doesn't pay any attention. He just nops out of there. But quite obviously, he really does take criticism to heart. And...

So I think getting him to understand that I think would be really important because it would help him not have this horrible reaction that he has the second he's criticized anyway. And I'd also, I'd love to make him... aware of just how skewed his social media feed is now because he talks a lot about, you know, social media is so bad for people and how those sites, they only encourage the worst instincts in society.

And then in the next breath, he will talk like he isn't patient zero for those two things. Like he's above it all and he really isn't. Right, exactly. Exactly. For me, it's Twitter. I would just tell him Twitter is a bad source of news and hopefully he believes it. And that's how I change his mind.

you know, claiming something is mainstream media is like sort of giving you excuses to confirm your own biases. And I think I would try to convince him of that, that he's very often hand-waving away things he doesn't believe in because he doesn't want to. believe in it, and he doesn't want to try to find that it's true. And so he's confirming his biases constantly. We see him do it all the time. Pretty much every single episode could have a toolbox that is...

confirmation bias. It could almost certainly every single episode have it. And he does it all the time. And I think if you could just teach him that, you know, stop for a second. Let's see if we can find multiple sources. Let's see if we're actually right on this. That might be useful for... Joe to try to learn how to do something like that. Justin Ross asks, sorry if I missed this earlier, but has anyone from your show contacted JRE to possibly highly unlikely get on JRE?

Yeah, no, so we haven't. And honestly, I don't know that it would be a good idea for us to necessarily do that. It's certainly, I don't think it would be a good idea for the two of us to go on Joe Rogan, for example. Joe Rogan is incredibly thin-skinned when it comes to criticism. Just look about how he keeps talking about that CNN interview, about him taking ivermectin, and then look at what happened after that interview and where it sent him for years.

I don't think there is any version of us being in a room with Joe Rogan on his show where he isn't extremely defensive and, you know, mean with it. And I don't think that'd be a recipe for anything productive. I could be wrong, but that's kind of how I feel about it. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I don't feel like it's not anything that either of us are interested in. He's not a type of person who I would want to have a conversation with pretty much ever.

Um, I don't think I would, there would be much I could change his mind on. And I think that it would probably be hostile and that's not useful to either of us. So, uh, the, the last question here is Gen X nerd. Eli is Keats and a frog Smith victory asks.

Have you gotten any indication that Joe Rogan is aware of this podcast? If so, can and will you tell us the details? We have not heard him say anything at all, nor have we heard anybody in his orbit say anything. On occasion, we'll get posted on... on like a Reddit for like his subreddit. Someone will post our stuff. And we thank everybody who posts us on Reddit, by the way, because it almost always seems to garner a larger...

a group of people who come find the show and listen to it afterwards. So we want to thank everybody who helped share the show on Reddit, especially in places where Joe Rogan's show gets brought up, but it's not a Joe Rogan sub. So it might be something like, you know, when his quote gets...

gets in a large, like maybe the UFC or some other place where somebody quotes something, people will say, hey, you should check the show out. And they'll list it in the comments and people will be like, oh, cool show. And then they'll go and listen to it. And we find that that is actually a good boost. But we have not seen that.

in places where Joe talks about the show. And I haven't seen it in people that sort of are in Joe's orbit mentioning it at all. So I don't think so yet, but I wonder if it's going to be a lot like with the Knowledge Fight guys where there clearly is a...

He clearly finds out about it, but he talks around it all the time and never actually mentioned it. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing is there's so many people who react to Joel Rogan's stuff. A lot of them who are completely praising of him. There's an entire podcast that exists.

just to talk about how great Joe Rogan was this week. So I suspect he probably just has a blanket. I'm not engaging with anything that is commentary on this stuff unless it ends up in the mainstream news and then it'll hurt his feelings quite extraordinarily.

We want to thank everybody for joining us for this entire season. It's been great. We really enjoyed it. Marsh, again, I love doing this show with you. It is so much fun to do this show with you. Every week I learn something new and I think it's awesome to sit down and really dive into this with you. It's been a lot of fun. Oh yeah, I've enjoyed it. I can't wait for A, a break, and then season three.

Season three is coming up. But during the break, we are going to play for people who aren't patrons. We're going to play you a couple of episodes of our extras. So the bonus show that we do every week, the Off the Record segment, we'll be playing those on our main... feed, a couple of those. We're going to pick, curate out a couple of them that we played this season, and we'll play them on our main feed. And for patrons...

Any patron, normally the higher level patrons get access to our bonus episodes. We'll be releasing two of our bonus episodes that we recorded this season to patrons. So if you're a patron, expect to see a bonus episode in your feed. If you're not a patron, expect to see an off the record segment in your feed. And if you're neither, expect to see us next year when we start our season up again. And if you guys can take a minute.

Between now and then, if you have a minute, go rate us on our show. If you enjoy the show, go rate us. It really helps people find the show, and it also helps people not... not shut the show off when they look and see it has a small amount of ratings. If they see that and they see the more ratings, it helps them.

think that the show is listened to more. And so that really helps our algorithm. So if you can go rate us a good rating, that would be amazing. If you don't like the show, you don't have to rate us. That's cool. You can just go do something else right now. That's true. All right. Thanks for joining us for this season. We'll catch you guys next season. If you love the show, please rate and share it. If you want to get in touch with us, I'm a patron or check out the show notes. Go to no Rogan.com.

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