The Patriarchy of Christendom

John Knox , from the first blast of the trumpet against the monstrous regiment of women , one theologian , beebe Warfield , a contemporary of first wave feminist leaders , elizabeth Katie Stanton and Susan B Anthony , pointed out that feminism viewed the individual rather than the family as the fundamental unit of society .

Warfield wrote to Paul the human race is made up of families and every several organism , the church included , is composed of families united together by this or that bond . The relation of the sexes in the family follows it , therefore , into the church . However , to the feminist movement , the human race is made up of individuals .

A woman is just another individual by the side of the man , and it can see no reason for any differences in dealing with the two . Thus feminism's anti-family individualism also opposed male rule in the church .

Warfield concluded , quote and indeed , if we can ignore the great fundamental natural differences of sex and destroy the great fundamental social unit of the family in the interest of individualism , there does not seem any reason why we should not wipe out the differences established by Paul between the sexes in the church , quoted from Zachary Garris' forthcoming New

Christian Impress Book honor thy fathers , recovering the anti-feminist theology of the reformers . A few years ago , a member of my church out in Ogden happened upon one of those decorative china plates that your mom and your grandma probably collected and hung on the wall .

This one , which turned up in an antique store on our historic main street , featured illustrations of three church buildings on the front . The reason it had immediately caught their eyes is that one of the churches was instantly recognizable as our own church , the historic church building we purchased about eight years ago and enjoy meeting into this day .

They bought the plate and gave it to me . Now it sits in my office as a reminder of important lessons . Here's what I mean by that . Some of the first Protestant missionaries to bring the gospel to our area in northern Utah were the Methodists who arrived with Reverend G M Pierce by railroad on June 28 , 1870 .

Reverend Pierce conducted the first Methodist service right there in the terminal Sounds like my kind of guy . For generations they labored in the rocky soil of Mormon country , ultimately establishing several congregations and building three beautiful church buildings one in Corrine in 1870 , one in Salt Lake City in 1906 , and finally the one we now own in Ogden in 1929 .

It's a truly beautiful church building gray brick , stained glass windows and a towering bell free standing there at the top of the hill at 26th and Jefferson At its zenith in the 1950s .

The congregation which met in our building had more than 400 families and attendants very significant for a railroad town like ours , in the only state in the union never to enjoy a majority Christian populace .

The church grew so large , in fact , that they had to purchase several adjoining lots , ultimately building an entire educational wing and fellowship hall onto the building , along with several other renovations . The plate , which was commissioned in 1970 , celebrated the centennial of the minister's arrival to the Beehive state .

So you might be asking how did we end up with this building ? Did they finally outgrow it ? Did they build something bigger somewhere else in town ? Well , no See .

Right at the zenith of their growth , as the nation around them grew more liberal on key questions of human sexuality , along with the sexual revolution , their denomination began sliding towards liberalism as well , beginning with the ordination of women . It wasn't long before all sorts of things were tolerated in their organization .

Sure , you couldn't technically affirm gay marriages , but after all , jesus befriended tax collectors and prostitutes , right ? So we really are being like the Lord in welcoming our LGBTQ plus brothers and sisters , aren't we ? And it is as predictable as it is ancient a story .

We could trace all the way back to Revelation 2 and the church at Thyatira , when Jesus , the one who walks among the seven golden lampstands , strode in . What did he have to say to them ?

Quote I know your works , your love and faith and service and patient endurance , and that your latter works exceed the first , but I have this against you that you tolerate that woman , jezebel , who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrifice to idols .

I gave her time to repent , but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality . Behold , I will throw her onto a sick bed and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation unless they repent of her works , and I will strike her children dead .

And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart and I will give to each of you according to your works and to the rest of you in Thyatira who do not hold this teaching , who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan . To you I say I do not lay on you any other burden .

Only hold fast what you have until I come the one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end . To him I will give authority over the nations and he will rule them with a rod of iron , as when earth and pots are broken in pieces , even as I myself have received authority from my father and I will give him the morning star .

He who has an ear , let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches . Revelation 2 , 19-29 . Much like the church at Thyatira , there were certainly faithful Anzellus brothers and sisters in the midst of the congregation who labored to raise that beautiful church .

On 26th and Jefferson , there were those who disagreed with the denominational leadership and even fought the swift current of liberalism sweeping their church away . But ultimately , as the years wore on , those who would fight lost .

And rather than seeing the lost converted and discipled , their attempts to pander to the culture only made the church grow emptier by the year .

Finally , with the building in disrepair around them , the Lady Pastors at the helm decided to sell , to liquidate the inheritance and try to scrape out enough money to build a modest metal church out in rural Marriott Slaterville , 20 minutes out of town . They're still there today .

Their website features invitations to such liturgical wonders as Pause in the Pews Sunday , a Bring your Pets to Church offering sure to attract a revival of the dying congregation . You might see 15 or 20 gray heads still there on a Sunday , but you won't hear the fusses and squeaks of children .

Every time I look over and see the centennial plate hanging on my office wall , I think about God's covenant . I think about blessing and curse . I think about the God who keeps both aspects of His covenant , both the blessing and judgment .

I think about an ugly metal building out in rural Marriott Slaterville and the elderly women pretending to pastor it , frantically searching for ways to keep the lights on in a church whose lampstand is all but extinguished .

And I think about those faithful saints who labored , brick by brick , dollar by dollar , to build the church that now rings again with the singing of saints every Sunday in Ogden , utah , along with the shufflings and fidgets of an army of infants and toddlers .

I hope that they praise God from the great cloud of witnesses as they see that the things they built in faithfulness weren't wholly lost to the covenant breakers and cowards of later generations . God still blesses along covenantal lines . He blesses and he curses .

When a people stand with courage and zeal against the errors and temptations of the day , the Lord delights to bless and multiply them . But when they give way before those errors , he chases . And if they will not turn from loving their sin and rebellion , even gives them up to apostasy and the terrifying curses that come with it .

The errors and temptation of the day come in manifold forms . In one age it might be this temptation and in another that . But one thing doesn't change Before glory every age will have its temptations . So why did I tell you about 19th and 20th century Methodists ?

If what we're doing this season of the King's Hall is to talk about the first Christendom , what do they have to do with it ? Well , because one of the great strengths of the first Christendom is also one of the focal centers of weakness in our own day .

One place they stood strong happens to be precisely the point of attack in our modern day A place not only of attack but of successful attack . A place not only of successful attack , but what can only be described as total conquest .

The first Christendom , obeying the Lord and His teaching in Scripture with near universal consistency , affirmed a patriarchal vision for society Father rule in the home , the church and the commonwealth .

We , on the other hand , have given way before wave after wave of feminist attack on the same , ultimately allowing our homes , churches and commonwealths to be overrun with loud and brash women .

We have allowed whole denominations to fall into ruin , trading the hard fought inheritance of previous generations away for a seat at the plastic table of cultural influence , only to find that the pagans hate us anyway , no matter what we give them . We've lost the godly rule of fathers , a loss attended by devastating cultural costs . This we must reverse .

The church must reclaim the ground which was ceded to feminism and its ruinous consequences Collapsing birth rates , rampant promiscuity , child sacrifice through abortion on a Stalin-esque scale , the ruin of homes and attendant destruction of children , the dismantling of marriage as an institution , and more .

On this issue there can be no peace , no ceasefire , no slackening , no quarter given . This is not ground we can afford to cede to the enemy in the name of coalitions and greater causes , because to cede this ground would be to give way at precisely that point in the wall where the enemy's attack rages with singular fury .

So join us in this episode of the King's Hall as we consider the cultural cost of losing father rule and how to recover it . The King's Hall podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world .

I really saw and heard from people over and over again about what God was doing in so many congregations across the country to bring revival to these ideas . Patriarchies hated , but I had so many women especially thank me and say we need more of this .

Yeah , and we had a broad representation of Christian leaders in this broad camp that we had Dr Joe Bout and Douglas Wilson . We had a then right response Joel Webb and Homeboy Joel Webb and me and you and Ben . It was an addition to that Baptists and Presbyterians and Anglicans . I met Anglicans .

I met just a huge sweep of the traditions , but all here together gathered around these ideas of a culturally and theologically maximalist Christianity aimed at building Christendom . I can't imagine that conference happening with a thousand people in 2010 or 2008 .

The apocryphal Luther quote came to mind when you were reading the cold open about the guy who will fight all the fights but not the one that matters most . And here we are fighting . You know , these fights are central , as you said . We'll jump into that in just a moment , but first we want to give a quick plug for our own conference .

Brian , you've got some exciting news for our most legendary of King's Hall fans .

That sounds narcissistic because we were all one of them , but you know , you guys judge on us but great speakers as well that we were able to come and we did that in our church last year and that really limited us on space . We had a max cap of if we get 400 people in that room it's pretty much standing room .

Only this year we were able to secure a great venue , just walking distance , actually up the street , a historic building in our city on the foothills of the East bench , beautiful brick building , and we have over a thousand seats that are available in this venue and hundreds of you have already signed up .

But we've got lots of room and we've heard from some folks at the conferences came up man , I'd love to come but I can't afford a ticket or I can't do this . So we just wanted to say we want you there . It's the most accessible conference we've ever done to families and we want you there . If money is an issue on the ticket price .

I can't pay for your Airbnb , guys . I'm sorry , dan can't pay for your Airbnb , eric certainly can't pay for it , I'm just kidding .

I would love to see as many people as possible show up . We're building real , practical building Christian boroughs applying these principles , and it's just going to be a great encouraging time .

We'd love to see I don't know , I'm predicting at least 10 weddings Come out of this , brian .

We've done a lot of historical research and when you look at everything , father Rule was not only universal in almost every sphere , but one of the things that's interesting we'll get into some guys who were defending it PB Warfield , others but it's really interesting because there's no major work on why patriarchy is important , simply because people assumed it .

So this was one of the interesting things that I found was even CS Lewis . In Mere Christianity he pointed to male headship as the universal rule and central to Christianity .

If you start tinkering with God's order for the home that's the engine of reproduction and in the cultivation , for society , if you start tinkering with the church and the household of households , if you start tinkering with the Commonwealth and how it deals with laws concerning marriage and the public order and who ought to be leading and who ought not to be leading

in the Commonwealth , you're talking about things that , by definition , cannot be peripheral . They are centrally important . You cannot seed this ground and have anything beyond a one or two generation sputtering sort of thing , because this is the engine of transmitting everything .

Where does the rubber hit the road on this ? So point number one this one is especially well laid out in Zach Garris' book , masculine Christianity . But patriarchy simply means father rule . So of course today we have a hard time even conceptualizing this .

But Scripture talks a lot about father rule , which comes from the Greek word for patriarches , which is from Arco , which means to rule , and potter for father , and as Zach says , quote it describes the practice of men providing for and protecting women and children , as well as men leading in church and society .

So in its simplest form , patriarchy means that fathers rule in home , church and society . This one seems pretty straightforward , but I bet with a lot of modern evangelicals you couldn't even get out the door with this point , dan .

There's a narrative in Scripture , obviously , but one verse that we would commonly point to in , say , like marriage counseling , because oftentimes if you have disorder in a marriage relationship , there's typically an abdication or domination from the husband and there's maybe a lack of respect or submission from the wife or domination from the wife .

And so we point to Ephesians 5 , and this is starting in verse 22 . It says wives , submit to your own husbands as to the Lord , for the husband is the head of his wife , even as Christ is the head of the church , his body , and is himself a savior . Now , as the church submits to Christ , so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands .

And obviously it goes on and there's more details about the husband's responsibility , loving the wives and everything like that . It's not just a one-sided thing , like wives just carp long , obey your husbands and everything , including sin .

But for some reason in evangelicalism in the beginning , with first-wave feminism which I know we'll talk about at a later point you see the old temptation of the women's desire to rule over her husband . That was part of the curse from Eve , from God to Eve , and she would rule over her husband .

We see that rearing its ugly head in the 19th century and then at every subsequent wave , like you mentioned , in the cold open . We've seated ground to that . So I think that that's really where we are right now , broadly speaking in evangelicalism . It was just overall confusion as to what is Ephesians 5 say .

It's certainly a problem in the family , but I think the one that and we'll get into this more but I think the one that really ruffles people's feathers now , because it's sort of an idol within the camp , if you will , is the society part .

It was also quite honestly to me years ago that was the one that was most foreign coming out of , like a middle of the road , complementarianism . What do you mean foreign ? Well , like when I first started reading Zach Garris and thinking about this , is you know , even before Zach , reading the church fathers in Westminster , I was like whoa , hold on a minute .

They're saying that women are not to be leading in society .

And so it actually was challenging at first for me to think about that , and I think it is for a lot of people . That's a really touchy subject in our own circles .

It results in the state of affairs where , if you do normal historic patriarchy , like Zach Garris' book that we're publishing , lord willing , not too long from now , honor thy fathers recovering the anti-feminist theology of the reformers with receipts , you'll see some intramural debates between Knox and Calvin and Bullinger and these other folks about certain finer point

details . But if you just take the patriarchy of those men that William Gooch , the Puritan , even if it was a consensus view .

Yeah , even just the things they all agreed on and asserted it today in the most charitable , loving , gentle way , people would immediately have the instinct of putting the word hyper in front of patriarchy and accusing you of being a reactionary red pill , manosphere , hyper-patriarchalist . And why do they do that ?

Well , because , first of all , they're ignorant of our tradition . They're ignorant of even the Protestant tradition , let alone the Eastern and the Roman Catholic tradition and prior so to them .

When , again and again , if you just read the most boring , plain commentary in the Westminster Confession of the 10 Commandments , you get to the 5th Commandment , the 7th Commandment , you get to these Commandments , what do you see Like ?

You see words like inferior and superior used in terms of hierarchy , that the husband and the hierarchy is above his wife in station and office , that the ruler of the nation is in the wife is above the children .

The wife- is above the children , the pastor is ruling over the congregation , which is what the word Paul uses in Timothy when he says a pastor who rules well ought to be so apparently . That's something that is not only good , but it's good to do it well .

Jesus did come to give his life away and he wasn't going to lord it over as the human rulers do , but he asserted authority and led with courage and he corrected them .

So all of these things that are just baseline assumptions of the first Christendom , they are not only alien , or not only are we ignorant of them today , we're hostile to them , even in the quote conservative camps . So that's why men like us often get immediately labeled as hyperpatriarchalists , to which I always immediately say what do you mean by hyper ?

Because we also correct against authoritarianism , which would be things like in collapsing of the spheres , that a husband is serving communion to his family or that a husband is arbitrarily refusing permission to marry to a worthy suitor of one of his children , like of his daughters .

We're also not and this is something that I think is really important we're not doing the typical complementarian thing where we're continually just saying an apology tour for all of this . We're saying no , no , no , no , no . Our fathers asserted these things gladly , having done well , they are for the good , they're deeply good of women , children , society .

And you see , it actually turns out pre 1960 , on the whole , it wasn't women in this camp being treated like dirt , they were the glory , as Doug says , they were the glory of their husbands , not scrapers .

What you'll see is that as soon as you start asserting , not just on paper but in practice , the principles of ordinary Christian patriarchy , people will immediately try to conflate you with some horrible evil group that did horrible evil things that none of us would say you should do .

Eric , you have a lot of experience speaking about complementarianism versus patriarchy and I think for most people the assumed position is complementarianism because they hear patriarchy and they think all those horrible things that you said , brian that the wife has no authority over the children , that she's just like in a prairie dress , barefoot , just filthy , being beat

by her husband , is kind of like that's patriarchy or some sort of Islamic style patriarchy which is horrible .

I would encourage people to read the introduction especially , and what you find in there is they say we are anti-hierarchalist , we don't like the language even of fathers , so they want to say they have a responsibility . Mary Cassie , and commenting on it , will say something like this men have the responsibility to serve , not the authority to rule .

So , even looking at this and there's a number of problems with it , but I think what was going on in 89 , it's interesting to me that the first many points that they outlined Piper and Grudem in that book is they talk about how glorious singleness is , and I don't know if it's Piper or Grudem who wrote it , but they say look , we look around the country , we

see egalitarianism taking hold . We see that there are more single people than ever . Let us just reassure you single people , like Jesus was single , paul was single . Now we have major problems with this . Christ marries the church , so he's not single forever . Paul was probably a widower .

Man rules over creation and , as older commentators would say , the reason that Adam not the Lord , adam names Eve is because God is allowing him to take a rule position . So this much is clear .

Even William Goode will say things like Brian mentioned superiority and inferiority , which would make a feminist head explode , but actually many people in our camp Goode will say that a wife is in submission and ranks lower in the hierarchy than her husband , now equal worth before God we all agree it's the inferiority and superiority of a brigadier general over a

colonel over a private over it's on down the .

So God made the man not just to arbitrarily be in a position of office superiority , but also he fitted him for that role in her , for her role , such that it would be contrary to nature for either of them to attempt to invert those roles and it would lead to destruction . Just like any other time you controversy God's nature and design .

Yeah , obviously I mean everybody would know this that if a husband fails his wife and his kids , it's going to have catastrophic effects . All you could do is look at just secular surveys and you could see when there's an absent father or abusive father or a father who's abandoned his family . It's catastrophic on the family .

Well , how much worse is it then if a pastor abandons his role and sins ? I mean , the effects are multiplicitous . Just like a politician who , if the president , all of a sudden went off the rails and became absolutely nuts started attacking his own people , for example . What would the effects be ? It would be massive .

So all that to say like that , men have been equipped by God for certain responsibilities . He's given them the abilities to match the responsibilities .

One thing I will say , having read , especially reading , zach Garris' book Masculine Christianity you know , dan you talked about it's not so you can lord it over people Once a man realizes what his God-given responsibilities as a ruler of his home are .

I walked away from that book sort of in a shocked stupor because I was like I have not taken my role nearly seriously enough . All of this is weighing on me . You will feel the weight of what God's called you to do . It's not my wife's job to make all these decisions for the family , and so that really for men .

If you take this seriously and biblically , you're like whoa dude , I have to step up . It's not like oh great , go make me a sandwich , I don't be lazy . Absolute opposite of that . I do wanna jump into point number two . Patriarchy is about a multi-generational covenantal vision .

It's about embracing this sort of vision , and the reason for stating this is Abraham . In Genesis 15, . The Lord meets him and the Lord in calling Abraham to be a patriarch , which all of scripture , including the New Testament affirms , the reason for God doing this is he is setting a legacy vision that will become the vision for Abraham , isaac and Jacob .

So , really , when we're talking about patriarchy , we're about calling men to embrace this covenant succession vision . It's not simply hey , now you get to tell your wife what to do , do whatever you want . No , no , no , no .

We're saying you need to be carrying out that cultural mandate from Genesis one and you need to be tying that to the Great Commission and Dan . We talk about this a lot in terms of a man's mission .

That is the man's job , to embrace this vision and aim at generations downstream , not simply to say , great , I'm in charge , I can do whatever I want for my own sake . That's not what this is about . No , no .

So when you realize that you're in authority and it's not for your own pleasure , like a general doesn't lead for his own benefit , that's called a tyrant . You see this a lot in Rome , when generals would split off with the army and attack Rome Like it's for his own glory . So men don't have responsibility for their own glory . They actually exist .

That's your responsibility . You exist to give yourself up for others , and that's the pattern .

One thing that I think you talked about the covenantal vision , one thing that I was trying to put together and you guys I'm sure have thought about this already is that I think this idea of a covenant household , the covenants in churches and in the state and everything like that , is fairly foreign to the broader evangelical world .

Talking about the covenants , I think they would understand like , oh , there's the old covenant and there's the new covenant , and those are the covenants , and so I was wondering if maybe you guys could speak a little bit to what is a covenant and what does it mean in a family ?

Because if you don't have a covenant in a family , there is inherently no hierarchical structure .

So the reformers would teach things like that from the family issue forth everything in the church and in society , culture , and so all of that structure has to be covenantally thought through , and Brian can explain more .

They're both , but they're covenants .

And number five they include the one in covenant with God and their children , meaning that the obligations and attendant blessings and curses are typically passed on to the children of the one in the covenant . This is a feature of the covenant with Adam . It's a feature of the covenant with Noah . It's a feature of the covenant with Abraham .

It's , all of these , Feature of the covenant with Moses and Israel . It's a feature of the covenant with Ezra . It's a feature of the covenant with David . All of them include those features , including that dealing where the blessings of the covenant and its curses are passed on to the children .

So God doesn't work primarily covenantally with individuals as such , but individuals within covenant frameworks of families which then become nations and all these other things .

So that's really important , because what that means is that , as a father , when I'm faithful to the terms of the covenant meaning I worship the Lord , I delight in his commands , I obey his commands to teach my children and train them up in the way they should go .

That we should expect that God delights to visit , that in those mercies to the thousandth generation it says of those who love him and keep his commands , and that he also visits the iniquity of the fathers on the sons to the third and fourth generation . So there's a covenantal logic .

I like how Pastor Wilson put it recently when he was talking about , like , say , a father with a secret pornography addiction . And it's not just the case that the child is more likely to use pornography because he might see his father doing that .

It's more the case that the father , as the head in his home , is saying in this home it's okay to look at pornography . Covenantally , he's opening a door in his household . So when it says that the father , that the sin are visited , it's not just talking about monkey see monkey do .

It's talking about a deep covenantal framework logic that undergirds the fabric of human society , from the individual to the family , to nations , to the church and everything else .

She said that Christianity was inherently patriarchal and Dan , that's also why she said she hated it and I hate it and I hate it . So , not surprisingly , cady Stanton published her woman's Bible , which deleted all references to patriarchal rule , which she saw as , of course , oppressive . But when we look at scripture , this is what we find .

On this issue , scripture is patriarchal . Adam was created before Eve and she was made to be his helper on his mission . Paul will say the same thing she was made for the man and not vice versa . I actually tweeted that not too long ago and people lost their minds .

Abraham was promised land and offspring and , given the covenant of circumcision which applied to male offspring , these promises were inherited by all the descendants , but specifically by his sons . I think this is interesting too . Romans 15.8 .

The apostle Paul includes Abraham , isaac and Jacob as patriarchs when he says Christ became a servant to the Jews quote to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs . And Paul , of course , using the Greek here , knows exactly what that word means is affirming it , and unapologetically so . So , and then finally , the Old Testament .

Elders , prophets , judges , priests and kings were all men . The heads of families were men . I love what Herman Bovingt says on this point . He says , quote the entire organization of the nation was along patriarchal lines . Everyone was divided into clans , families and households which were ruled by their head or representative , or prince . These were all men .

And then I would say , is the scripture patriarchal ? In the new covenant , zach makes a really interesting case that Jesus really is the fulfillment of the great patriarch . He's fulfilling the promise to Abraham and he's not , as films portray him , this long-haired hippie . He is , in fact , short-haired , like most of the Jewish men of his day .

He's exercising manly authority . All the promises were about a man , and so it's not surprising that the leader of Israel would be dun dun , dun a man , dan , yeah , dan . So how about that ?

That whole world was foreign to me and I didn't know where to go to get help . The thing is , I missed decades of opportunities to build inheritances for my kids and to take care of my wife and me in retirement .

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I mean , that's pretty much it , the Deuteronomic Blessings , but I think this is so important as we talk about this because it stands in contrast really , the way that the woke CRT mainline evangelical establishment , the Gavin Ortlands of the world , have painted . Jesus is really with a pink highlighter . He's meek and lowly , he's gentle .

They want to highlight all those and really never talk about the fact that this guy built a whip of cords , went into the temple , cleansed it . Read Matthew 23 . Jesus is not in soft speech . It's a chapter of curses , covenant curses on the Pharisees . This guy goes head to head with people who want to kill him . This is- .

That's why later it's called in Revelation the deep things of Satan , the synagogues of Satan . Covenantally , there really is something where they've apostatized from the covenant , They've rejected their father and they've made their father the accuser . They made him Satan . It's still all the way down .

You find this covenantal logic in the entirety of the scriptural story .

So fatherhood is like I mean , I don't know how many times it's mentioned in chapter one , but like every other verse you've got father , father , father , father , father on repeat and you see that structure all throughout Matthew's gospel .

He's the , not just a father of a house or father of the church . He's a father of the cosmos . Yes , right . This is why , in Isaiah , it's not conflating the persons of the Trinity when it says that Jesus will be called everlasting father . Yes , correct , he's a new Adam , he's a new father of a new humanity .

It's not confusing the divine office or the divine person of the father with the divine person of the son . It's demonstrating Jesus' office as a covenantal father , a patriarch Of a new cosmic humanity .

So again , modern feminists are gonna say things like gender roles are merely cultural . And when Paul was speaking to the church , well , it's a one-two step . That's interesting .

They're like we don't believe in God or the Bible , but by the way , we know what Paul was really saying yeah , okay , like I said , so the New Testament authors , including Jesus , they're gonna root these teachings in creation . First , timothy two is a really good example .

People will say well , no , no , a woman , it's not her nature that prevents her , it's just God arbitrarily said no , I don't want you to teach or preach , I have it if you want me to read it .

And so that's what you're talking about being rooted in creation .

Men and women have different bodies , minds , personalities and dispositions . Men and women have different natures . From these natures flow differing functions . So , brian , one of the things that we've heard was a comment that was made that went something like this I could preach a better sermon than most men in America .

And when you read this understanding , I think we should hear that , like Dan saying I could nurse children better than most women in America , we should say something like I really wish you had not said that . I've never said that I used Dan for a reason .

Men ? Who did he appoint to be the doctrinal bulwark in the home ? Men , fathers , raise up your children in the discipline and understanding of the Lord . Who did God raise up to be the bulwark since society ? Men ? We'll get to this , but particularly when it comes to preaching , think about all of the things that go into the nature of the man and woman .

Men tend to be more pugilistic . Women tend to be more consensus building in terms of their nature . These are observable things . This is natural theology . You can observe them , but you're seeing the fingerprints of God's design and creation . So imagine a woman trying to preach her way through . Preach the church through something like 2020 or critical race theory .

What is she going to be tempted to do ? Well , she's going to be tempted to do everything Dr Rigney has been talking about in terms of emotional sabotage and weaponized empathy . She's going to be very prone to deceit on the basis of weaponized empathy oh , but shouldn't we care about this group or that ? Don't we want to love this group or that ?

And so she's going to have a very hard time saying no , the man who was gathering sticks on the Sabbath was right to put him to death . That's not a feminine tendency .

It's just to do . This is why all the egalitarians they love to say things like women were the first ones to preach the gospel and they're talking about the women from the tomb going and telling the apostles that Jesus was risen . I'm sorry , there's a reason . The text does not say they were preaching , because that's not what a sermon is .

A woman did not get up and say you crucified the Lord of glory , because that's not how God ordered nature . That's not how God ordered his offices . It doesn't work . It's absurd .

And we can say the same thing about women . This is why that God actually gave them a womb and breast . They are nurturers . Her whole nature is crying out for this .

What this is really saying is it's not career , it's not political office no . It's not to be the governor of South Dakota no .

And then here's the curriculum To be workers at home , to love husband and children , and then don't fall into these sins that you're prone to fall into . And we hear that and we go . That must just be a starting point .

There must be so much more that Paul intends for women to teach , Because certainly , like it couldn't just be that Well , the just in there is doing a lot of mischief , Because when you look at what it looks like to be a worker at home , do you realize that's what Proverbs 31 is describing ?

Beatific , this , yeah , the beatific vision the beatific vision for a home . If you're embracing it in all of its glory , it is laughable to say that you would be sitting there doing nothing .

It's something you can cheerfully give your life to every drop without ever running into the edges of it not being big enough .

Because women are told this lie , that what they need to do is go out and they need to become seminary professors and teach theology and they need to start doing systematic theology , bible studies , and that they need to start getting careers and going in cubicles .

And then you start businesses and they need to be political officers and they need to be political commentators and they need to be journalists and they need to be all this other stuff . And it's like you have a deracinated view , a rootless view of the home . It's not rooted in the thickness of God's creation of these covenantal units .

You don't realize how large and vast and interesting and intricate and glorious this task is .

It's interesting because she says what happened to women when they were no longer part of this flourishing , productive household . They were valued less , she said .

exchange for some kind of commodification sort of exchange . Her value is near nil , because one man can go and use the right pickup artistry and nonsense to get 30 women a year in his bed .

Compare that to the cultural value and I'm talking culturally or not , before God in terms of the Imago Day , I'm saying culturally the value in a Christian society of a woman , a godly woman who will be the mother of my children , the keeper of my home .

You cannot even compare those two values and that's why it's such a degradation and a shame when you convince women via feminist lies to devalue themselves in this way and permit it to happen .

He will say things like well , yeah , you know , the man is the head of the household and I suppose if there was a tight break decision that you know , maybe the woman should defer in her career to , I guess , come home and be with the children . Like you can tell , they're embarrassed about it .

They're still willing to talk about women in careers while married , which is like a full scale operation outside the household . That , to me , kind of typifies part of the problem is that we've actually got to look in the camp and say no , no , no , no , no . You don't understand the glory of motherhood and the glory of this Oikos despot .

They apply them and they bring treasures where ? Into the home . I think it's a Into the home . They put them in her hands .

He said feminism is that mixed up and muddled idea that women are free when they serve their employers , but slaves when they help their husbands .

When you look at the money in your bank account , that money is not for you , like you , use it wisely to serve those that you're responsible for .

It's this promises to you and your children and all who are far off . So , and also in Ephesians , when Paul says , hey , this deuteronomic blessing that came along with the 10 commandments of honoring your father and mother , that you live long in the land , paul is affirming the covenantal pattern in the new covenant of the old covenant promise continuing Children .

honor your parents , because God will do something good for you if you do . There's blessing that comes along with obedience to this covenant . A lot of times we wanna collapse everything to its spiritual essence and fail to recognize that God works through immediate works . He works through means .

So covenant nurture is a means through which he accomplishes his covenant blessing . So it's not just you have election up there and then everything else is collapsed and there's nothing in between election and the ultimate blessing of the covenant . There's a million different covenant streams and blessings and threads .

It's this big tapestry of the spiritual and the physical that's all woven together by God and you can't tug on the physical thread without also tugging on the spiritual thread .

So this is where I would say , like men are primarily out there fighting the fight on the society facing end , women are fighting the fight of building the culture behind you , and so if you don't have that culture behind you and if you don't have mothers and homes , then I mean you're not gonna build Christendom .

She's in her kitchen serving him a glass of warm milk and saying take a nap now , dear , before putting a tent state peg through his head . It's not that passage , by the way , feminist is not an example of why we should have female John Wickes .

That Tolkien points out is a mistake .

So when we look at women in society and you can go out and she can get a job and make 80K a year , 180k a year , 380k a year , whatever it is , and putting a value on that and saying , look , how valuable it is for me to be in the workforce when fundamentally misunderstanding what a covenant family is and what a mother is and she is responsible for with

her body , that God is equipped to do this , to grow and to feed immortal souls , immortal souls . Cs Lewis has this great quote about how you've never met a mere mortal and you are making more immortal souls .

And she was like ladies , listen , I hear all of you and you're talking about how , when you come home , you can't spend enough time with your kids and you're like how much time do you spend ? And these ladies tell me two hours . And she's like two hours is a lot of time . She's like here's what I give my kids on a daily basis .

All they need is 20 minutes . And I was like this is disgusting and you're never gonna get a good culture out of this . No , I do wanna move on . Point number six Men are made to be courageous warriors and workers . This comes from Genesis 2.15 .

Men are put in the garden to work and to keep so , to be productive , to provide for their families on the one hand , and also to defend the perimeter , to be warriors . And this is interesting , I think , particularly because in our culture we wanna reduce masculinity to the spiritual only .

But it is actually quite clear when you read the commentaries and look at the Greek in 1 Corinthians 1613 , when Paul says to act like a man , it's actually clear that he means something like physical courage , boldness or even taking heroic action . Being a man unlike our day was actually pretty clear . It was clearly defined , sorry continue .

People are so quick to rush and say masculinity's not beards and working out guys and you're like , first of all , no one said it was . But secondly , those are actually hallmarks of maleness and what it means to act like and God did that , not me and what it means to act like men .

Certainly it's more than mere biological maleness , but it's definitely not less .

He said I was basically raised by my mom and he says what that taught me was that being a man , masculinity had nothing to do with actual competencies or physical things , and I was like that kind of explains why the theology there is so problematic and why it's been pietistic .

In saying , yeah , people lose their minds , because what I'm trying to do functionally in recovering biblical masculinity is to say things like man , you should have some strength , you should be actually have some skills with a firearm or with your hands where you could actually defend your family . And then what they hear again , this is people in our camp .

What people in our camp here are . Oh so the only thing that it requires to be a godly man is to lift 400 pounds on your deadlift and we're like no one's ever .

And I would put it under this category of part of the protective role of husbands and fathers is to guard the sexual purity of their women and so , pastorally , we have to warn about this . The father in the garden yeah , the father in the garden is the first one to be like you need more clothes .

And the only mechanism for holding it fast , for putting a big pin through it so it can't move anymore , is prophetic yelling some of the time Like you have to live it , you have to do all of that . But you also have to have men who are willing to go up and absolutely blaspheme the gods of the age who are trying to do that counter-discipleship .

And that's a pastoral role . Because I love my wife , because I love my daughters , because I love the women in our church , I refuse to stop talking boldly about different ways that demons want to destroy them , that are very popular today . We just won't because we're not gonna be like , we don't wanna be cowards , we don't wanna give way before the demons .

Why would I do that ? And then Christians are the ones often who stand up and they become useful peons of the demons by saying like they basically say well , you're attacking women by doing that . Well , no , no , no . The women are being attacked and I'm telling them don't believe the demons , ladies , because it will not go well for you if you do .

This comes from Deuteronomy 22.5 , in which we are told a woman shall not wear a man's garment , nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak . For whoever does these things is an abomination . Strong language You're an abomination to the Lord if you do these things . That includes you . Bruce Jenner , probably not listening to this show , but in case he is , repent .

So it's interesting . Not only does this include a prohibition against cross-dressing , but the text specifically refers to a woman putting on military garb , entering combat roles , this sort of thing . So women are not designed to give or to take punches .

This is one reason why they're not pastors , because that is part of the pastoral role of spiritual warfare and that sort of thing . But also , brian entering the agon and this is where we most recently have gotten in so much trouble is that we're saying , okay , look , women should not be in the UFC , pounding each other's faces in . Yeah right , got it .

Women should not be putting themselves in high . They shouldn't be playing NFL football . They would die . Okay , we're good there . Women should not be engaging in cultural pugilism and fighting the fights of that day . I wanna get your take , but first I wanna read John Gill . Let's hear it .

John Gill actually applies this principle not only to warfare , but actually to vocation .

He says this it being very unseemly and impudent , and contrary to the modesty of her sex , or there shall not be upon her any instrument of a man , any utensil of his , which he makes use of in his trade and business , as if she was employed in it , when her business was not to do the work of men but to take care of her house and her family .

So this is John Gill . I wanna hear from Brian Sove .

It wouldn't be fit a man to wear the garments of a woman . It wouldn't be fit a woman to wear the garments of a man , and military combat is trade . It wouldn't be fit her . It wouldn't be fit a nation to have a female ruler . In fact , that's considered a curse in Isaiah .

When you clothe yourself in such a way that accentuates , as a woman , let's say , all of your sexual features and reveals them or leaves just enough to the imagination in a tantalizing way , you're communicating something , whether you like it or not , that is speaking .

It's saying something about the vocation that you consider yourself to be in , and the only vocation I can see is that you're the vocation of a prostitute . You're saying desire this , desire this . And you're also saying it's for sale because it's being advertised in the public sphere .

Where this gets really controversial today , though , is when we start taking these principles out to their logical end and saying things . Like you know , there are women who I think are correct on many issues that I would have overlapped with that .

They might write things or do things , podcast about things that I'm like I would agree with the content of what they're saying , say against abortion or on political issues and going in , but what I would say is you need to step back from doing that .

That's not the proper vocation of a woman to go out and do cultural and theological battle in that way that instead , you have a vocation in its motherhood and keeping the home and what Paul laid out in Titus too , and so even there , even when it seems like it's not conducive to a coalition building or where you get in trouble on Twitter , like we generally

tend to do when we're saying no , we intend to be consistent with these principles all the way down , because the last thing I want to do in my church and in my ministry is to put forward a model of femininity other than the model of scripture and nature , and if I say , those are perfectly befitting roles for a woman to do , provided she's on my team .

Politically , am I telling the truth ? No , am I helping the women I'm serving ? And I'm talking about the adorable little ladies in first and second form at St Brennan's .

When we get up and chapel and they're singing in there , they're great I mean tremendous with giving them a great Christian education , want them to think well , read well , speak well , all these things you know , women of virtue and courage , and all these things . But I don't want to put before those young ladies as they grow up .

Well , pastor Brian thinks it's perfectly OK for me to be the breadwinner in my home via political journalism or via theological culture . Warring I would say no , that's , that's not the vision that I want to put forward , because I think it's destructive .

We have to evaluate like it's really hard to have like two full time jobs at the same time . As Lexi has said , you can't even be in two places at the same time , right , so you've really got to think through that .

And if you put that that's the equals in the equation , women should learn quietly , with submissiveness , and not teach or exercise authority over a man . Yeah , does that mean she can't teach at all ?

It's very broad and there are biblical reasons why you shouldn't be doing this . This is not something that we're making up as sort of like crazy , hyperpatriarchal , like oppressive . You know masculinity , beard wearing muscle bound . I wish .

We're talking about them in our home constantly and she's having . Just yesterday they were women in our house and they were making marmalade together and there's all these different skills and beautiful things and it's a broad .

I go out and I provide , I go out and I defend so that my wife can focus on my generations , my legacy , my name , for the glory of Christ , so that he might bless my family to the thousandth generation .

Basically that some women she felt were being very disrespectful and un-lady , like I know , I know , and that they were even older women and that they were being really really brash , especially towards like pastors and things like that .

Regardless of whether we agreed about the issue , she was commenting on the nature of how they were doing it and she said I'm being tempted right now to like go and like throw some blows out there . And I told her that you know you're right , from the examples you gave there , those women are . They're not operating in their role , that's in .

They shouldn't be doing that and also because we believe that principle , you shouldn't go right now and tweet angry things about it . Either Let us handle it or , if it needs to be handled , and she's the thing that it does like . Your point is that's protection . That means my wife does not need to stew on controversies on Twitter . That's not her job .

Does she have time for that ? No , she's . She doesn't have time for that . She's raising my six children . She's teaching younger women in our church and she's like all these things , so that's not in her nature .

I'm just not going to emotionally respond to it for the next 24 hours , and well and just do that . My wife cannot do that .

It's really interesting to me because when you see women in the conservative Christian camps who they want to have a podcast or a conference speaking tour or whatever it is , it always seems to end up with women , as Brian said , being brash and public and so pastorally .

One of the things that we're guarding against is I don't actually want our women , my wife , our daughters , to become that way , and the thing I have seen from practical experience here in Ogden is we generally do have women who are sweet , they're kind . They're not training themselves on a daily basis to be combative with their words .

My wife is extremely well read , we have fascinating conversations about stuff , but I'm also not saying like , okay , great , take your intelligence , take your wisdom , take all that and go start a podcast and go start attacking politicians and God forbid attacking Christian pastors online . We're not going to do that .

That's how much we actually care about our young women and our young men is that we wanted them to know the great works of the Western canon and we wanted them to know theology , and they want .

We want to know about nature and about rhetoric and logic and all of these different subjects , that all of the fascinating world that God made Latin and Greek and we wanted them to be able to read the Bible in the original language . And so we're teaching our little's this right now , and in first grade they're learning how to read Coine Greek .

So that's how much we care about our women being educated .

Okay , you get offended , but then you're like oh so you just want women to be dumb and you want to be the dragon , their knuckles on the ground and like but no one said that , and you're just gother 2.0 , and you're just this , and you're well , actually , let's , let's , let's talk about principles .

Does not the apostle here assigned the home as the proper sphere of the Christian woman ? That is her kingdom , and neither the secular nor the ecclesiastical Commonwealth . Her duties in her home are to detain her away from the public functions . A wise God designs no clashing between his domestic , his political and his ecclesiastical arrangements . End quote .

So my point being here we are talking about basic , westman , syrian reform , biblical sexuality . This is not gothard , we're not quiverful .

Our primary task in all this , believe it or not , is not attacking feminists , it's not drinking liberal tears , but we are creating a culture of robust Psalm singing and feasting and worship and classical Christian education and homeschooling and deep learning regarding the word of God and prayer . Right , this is the ground upon which we are prepared to fight .

So , to quote Chesterton , he said the true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him , but because he loves what is behind him .

And so , gentlemen , I think that's really this picture of we're trying to create this culture that we love , and I think if people see it , generally speaking , they realize our women are a glory here , all these people .

That's all nonsense . It's just not true . It just shows that you haven't A done the reading and B you haven't seen us really .

This is what it means to be a king to be first in every desperate attack , last in every desperate retreat , and when there's hunger in the land as must be now and then in bad years , to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land . So again , a patriarchy that's marked by joy .

So , gentlemen , we've sort of gone through these nine principles of patriarchy . And , Brian , I think it's helpful at this point just for people to understand a lot of times when they see us on Twitter or they see a Brian sermon and they think , wow , these guys just off the cuff , just fired this bullet and they're just trying to antagonize people .

So what we want to say is no , it's historical , it's biblical , it's reformed . What we're really trying to do is assert our principles in the public sphere . Now the question is , a lot of people would say , okay , hold them privately , but we don't need to be putting them in the public space . So I want to get your take on why do we make it public ?

If there's one thing that you take away from this , it's that we really believe that in the project of faithful Christian living and in covenantal faithfulness and in working to establish the kinds of Christian culture that might produce a Christian nation or a Christian empire or Christendom right , that you cannot do that without faithfully living these principles and not

in a watered down complementarian way . What do you mean ? I mean out to the edges , I mean consistency to the edges .

As the saying goes , the fight is over that middle , and it's not really 20% , maybe middle 3% or middle 5% that maybe they go . They could be persuaded . Let's moderate towards that middle so that we can win those people , coalition build with as broad of a tent as possible and make real political gain and that sort of thing .

I'm saying that the principles that you actually live out , especially on these central issues , are going to be what you actually believe . You can have things on paper , but if you live out principles contrary to what's on paper , then those principles you're living out are your real principles . When you put those two things together , we think this is central .

We think this is so central that you need to live it all the way out and that therefore , we must live by the principles and actuality and not by some other set of principles , even if they would moderate a little bit and make fewer people angry with us .

It's the kind of thing where , when you start getting consistent with these principles because of the nature and the depth of the counter-discipleship that feminism has performed in our culture , like we've talked about , it really is the case that sometimes you're going to get pushback and people are going to say , hey , whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa .

You're not allowed to take that principle there . Calm down on that . You need to hold that one more privately , and this kind of thing , I think , comes up sometimes .

You sort of see the divide Brian's talking about where it's like I would never publicly assert that . Yeah , and I think for my money , I just got tired of it because I saw a complementarian conservative Christians losing that cultural war decade after decade .

And I was like well , you're losing because you're fundamentally afraid , or too cowardly , to publicly assert your principles , and that's why the culture keeps shifting further and further left . Meanwhile , the left is not afraid to assert their principles , no matter how insane they are .

There would be no Ogden Utah without Pastor Wilson . There'd be no St Brandon's Classical Christian Academy without Pastor Wilson . It was reading his book that convinced me we need to have a school 10 years ago .

When it comes to , like , say , the Ali Beth Stucky thing and maybe one of you guys can pull up his tweet because he tagged Eric , he talked about Ogden , he said some kind things about Ogden as well and we were at a conference together , had good conversations about some of these things and , again , like honor the man , very much thankful for him .

But also just to say like , but we can also disagree in still appreciate it and respect and all those things . Dan , do you have that ? Yeah , I'll read it Okay .

This is not to pretend that there are no substantive disagreements , but simply to note that the areas of agreement actually do far outweigh the differences .

Ali Beth has done an awful lot of good , and I think the best policy would be to let her continue to have at it Her warnings in that initial clip were quite reasonable Domesticity is a whole lot easier on Instagram than other places In real life . There are no filters .

But in the same spirit , the Ogden Gents are zealous for application and obedience and the modern evangelical world is allergic to practical application . You can differ with some of their applications but still applaud the spirit of application .

We should all be willing to grant that some women in head coverings are in bondage and that some dancing coeds are in a different kind of bondage . I propose a new acronym no enemies to the reasonable right and no enemies to the immediate left either , which is Neter and Nettle .

You know , for example , you might approach a husband and say I'm wondering why your wife wears a head covering , to which he replies well , she insists yeah , that was pretty dang funny , we did have a good laugh .

On this kind of issue there's some differences in instinct , there's some differences in assessment of the situation , in value , where Pester Wilson saying look , I think that if you weighed what the criticisms of say because our core criticism of someone like Ali Bestucky , as we've just said , is here's our principles we don't think it's good or helpful as a model to

say let's send our women to do political commentary in the types of things that Ali Beth engages in , as well as theological battle and cultural battle within the ecclesiastical sphere , which she also primarily engages in , particularly in a way that , though a lot of it is directed in a woman word direction , it's very much abroad .

This actually , and this is part of it the context is not the founder's clip , the context is the last year , and so one of the things that we've noted in particularly in our church situations is that there have been verifiable instances on one of her shows where Ali Beth , for example , mocked a woman's husband who told her I don't want you to listen to Ali

Beth anymore . She's a loud woman , she's a brash woman and I don't want you to listen to that . Well , Ali Beth responded on the show by mocking the husband and saying well , you should tell him that's dumb and you're not going to do it .

So number one the Christian husband and wife for which Ali Beth is actually advocating for an abuse of the Fifth Commandment , a violation of the Fifth Commandment . So that's the sort of thing that we look at and we say , okay , put that one on the list .

We do not want our women having the kind of attitude where they're laughing and mocking their husbands and telling them they're stupid when they're trying to do their job .

She's teaching theology first of all on her very public platform and then she ends up using that to attack . I got attacked , joel Webb , and got attacked . Previous years , michael Foster got attacked . So it's not just one person and there's been a consistent pattern with this woman of doing this . We actually find this really harmful .

So what's interesting I think about also the language of ceasefire . Ali is in the public sphere . She is advocating public ideas . In my mind , it's fair game for me to interact with those ideas .

But even characterizing it as a ceasefire , Well , I would say , well , this is just an exchange of ideas . I'm actually not like offended her . I don't want to destroy a person .

So it's not just you know , like this little thing where we're asking just hey , maybe don't talk about you know us that way . It's not that the disagreement isn't about primarily oh , she was mean to one of our friends or something like that Primarily it's over the principle where we're actually not doing it first to try and win Ali Beth Stuckey .

We're doing it first to say because it's an extraordinarily popular podcast . Many women in our church we discovered had listened to it and things like that . We're saying we actually don't believe media is imitation . You consume media and you imitate the things that you consider to be good , true and beautiful in it .

Right People , you become conformed to your teachers . This is what you know Hugh of St Victor talked about in the educational world and the classical Christian world , where he basically said that a teacher is like a seal , a signet ring . The student is like wax . You put the seal of the teacher on the wax of the student , you become like the teacher .

Jesus said a disciple , when he's fully taught , will become like his teacher in Luke . So what we're saying is I'm not trying to convince Ali Beth first .

I'm actually trying to say ladies who are in our sphere of influence , which was starting their homes , expanded the church and then expand to the people who listened to us in our public ministries Okay , we don't think this is a good model .

So I wouldn't agree that there's more good than harm , because I think the nature of the platform itself is a fundamental harm .

Now , I won't do that just because , arbitrarily , god commanded me not to , but it's interesting because you know , and we'll get into this but Ben Del Wary and then Jeff Wright had actually covered this in a podcast last year and there were like a lot of these things . God called me to do it , you know , saying that exactly .

Well , I'm not going to preach even though I could do it better . This is actually a lot of the same rhetoric and they highlight how it's the exact same rhetoric that Beth Moore had used and Amy Byrd .

Yeah , that's all the way back to the . It's this we're saying , this is in the foundations , but I would train left the station .

It's a rejection of the body of anthropological doctrine established in the household and the church and the sphere with respect to men and women of our forefathers , of all of the men that we would line our shelves with from banner of truth and that we , you know puritan paperbacks and all of these different gooch and Knox and Calvin and Vermiglian , all these guys

with one voice there's a little disagreements here and there , but with one voice , the center of everything we just said and say , well , yeah , well , obviously , that's obviously what the scriptures teach .

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Head to Ogden Gold and check it out today . So this is not like we're not rejecting a few modern innovations . I'm not going to do the thing where I'm going to try to pick out the meat from first wave feminism and spit out the bones .

I'm just going to say from the foundation , like , in a way , it's kind of antelion of me to be like presuppositionally , like it is false teaching . And it was not just false teaching about society , by the way , it was in open and hostile warfare against Christian faith and doctrine . They were self-consciously setting themselves up as a contra-biblical movement .

We have gotten to the point where , in ostensibly conservative churches , we positively celebrate our disease condition . As long as somebody on the premises affirms inerrancy and as long as Susie Q stays out of the pulpit between 11 am and noon on Sundays , she can do anything an unordained man can do .

And now someone might wonder how that got to be the standard , which I call a reasonable question . The central thing I'm talking about , of course , is that pestilence that we for some reason want to call women's ministries . Some will no doubt object and say that the way I introduce a subject , I'm making women's ministry sound like a bad thing .

And far from this being the place where I violate my no quarter November rule against qualifications , I will simply nod and say that , yes , women's ministries were a terrible idea and have already been the destruction of numerous churches . Whoever thought it up should have been flogged out in front of the synagogue . So , yes , women's ministries have been a disaster .

And don't get me started on women counselors . I have much more I could read , but I don't know if you add a response to that .

We've been taught that you need a woman to be able to pass through a woman . Doug is saying it probably in stronger language than I would , in terms of like flogging somebody in front of the synagogue , but I'm also saying like , yeah , I support this sort of thing , like we need hard words .

Doug was the one in Mother Kirk who said if you want concrete hearts , then preach with a feather duster , and if you want soft hearts , you have to jackhammer those truths home with your preaching . So hard truths , though uncomfortable , are also what get through , like things like feminist tendencies that we even have in evangelical circles .

Women ministering is one thing , but women's ministries are something else . What kind of something else are they ? I will tell you . They're a complicated tangle of sentiments and grievances and emotions , and rage and resentments .

So what churches have tended to do and we fought against this is one of the most controversial fights we ever had in our history was around women's ministry .

Whereas the Calvary Chapel , the traditional model for women's ministry , was the traditional model for most evangelical churches , which was to have a group of women who would teach doctrine , they would do little women's ministry gatherings and say you know , today we're going to do an exposition of Ephesians , and next week we're going to do systematic theology and we're

going to do all these things . And then one day we started reading that kind of thing . We went hang on A lot of it again learned from Pastor Wilson and said what we're doing to our shame is setting up a female , a quasi-female eldership like a kind of thing . It's like a church within a church .

We're saying that the male elders can only minister properly to the men and that we need basically female elders to minister to the women , and rightly so . If you're going to return to the Patriarchy of Christendom . You have to reject that because built into the foundation of it is a lie .

That director of the women's ministry , aka the women's pastor , then becomes an apostle to the women , which means that the elders are not really responsible for the women . As Peter was an apostle to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles , so also the elders are ministers to the men .

For the time being , the very last thing in the world that the women of your church need is feminine pastoral care . Men , women and children all together need to be shepherd by qualified men . Some women who will be extraordinary in their ministering are those who are more than good with this .

They are the women in your church who recognize that whining is not a spiritual gift .

It was , it was it got catty and I think this is it got catty .

So he's going to irritate people within the camp , but I think , along the lines of a biblical principle and the way Doug says it . By the way , this is a good example of the serrated edge . Yeah , like this one cuts . It does cut , but that is , it can be , and it is , I think , often used in a way that is helpful and good .

Primarily , we're actually trying to stand on the principle that's central land , that you can't give up and that it applies to aspects of her ministry and her platform that we think ought not to be , and so we're not willing to , on the level of principle , say we'll overlook those principle differences because of the good that's happening . That's just not the that .

That's not . I think like there's a tactical disagreement happening here between how Doug's reading it and how we are about the principle , because , again , he's the one that taught us all these principles .

And so Eric Kahn , Brian Sauve , Dan Burkholder , all the elders at Refuge Church have to stand in the way to protect the people of Refuge Church from harmful teachings , harmful ideologies , a harmful culture that would actually seek to enslave them instead of set them free in Christ , and the most subversive version of it .

But let's just take generally speaking . I think there are women who would violate this principle that you'd go wow , she seems like a really sweet lady , respects her husband .

A random raging liberal feminist or someone that they're like ? Oh no , this is okay , they're on our team , they're doing good stuff , this is an okay model . Let my heart be won by this person .

And then , and here's the thing Again , I'm not accusing anybody with the , with this kind of platform today , of being a raging , a secret raging feminist or something like that . But here's the thing the historical pattern is that women with platforms like this routinely become leftist over time , routinely become leftist Women .

That started by saying I am a conservative theologian , I believe in this creed , in this creed , in this confession , and I'm complementarian , I'm all these things I mean . So many times has it ended in one , two , three , five years later saying , actually , I think women should preach , actually , I think that complementarianism is inherently abusive and harmful .

He's like don't make me tap the sign , but we've seen him post this , and others as well , and it's crazy because it just keeps coming up again and again and again and it's almost like , and it is like God wrote this into the nature of men and women and then he told us to do a certain thing .

And when you violate that principle this is why we're saying you're violating the nature of who women are .

But they'll also do this thing where they clearly describe that they're signaling to talk about us and then they'll ascribe to us the most ridiculous positions oh , they're gothardites , or they're . They don't believe women should be educated or they'll do all this . They believe that that sourdough and pretty dresses save you .

They believe that all these absolute absurdities that not only do we not teach , but we've publicly countered the vast majority of these things . They're hyperpatriarchalists , all this stuff . And they'll do that while not naming us , so we can't defend ourselves .

And what I've decided to do just this week personally , like this , is a new okay , new rule of engagement from Brian , from Brian's survey , is that when I see that kind of thing , I'm immediately going to respond and say oh , it seems like you might think you're talking about me and Eric and this you know , our , our friends .

Let me go ahead and just say , first of all , are you ? And secondly , if you are , we need to talk because you are completely mischaracterizing what we teach .

So they often are tempted to fight via political maneuvering , which which , frankly , reverts to logical fallacy with frequency .

He says this . He quotes Robert Conquest , second law of politics . He says any organization not explicitly right wing sooner or later becomes left wing . And he says , in response to this quote this is why Christian organizations often falter . First , they pretend to be above politics , which means that they can make a principled choice not to be right wing .

However , this principled stand doesn't keep Conquest's law from being true , and that is from his article the nature of a transitive verb and the failure of conservatism , inc .

Actually harkens back to Alistair Roberts before he got crazy , and Alistair was the one who said this is actually the problem . When men enter the arena with women , they put themselves there . You know , you start exchanging ideas and the minute you try to quote unquote , throw a punch , she will say no , no , no , I'm a lady . Why are you scratching my eyes out ?

Why are you scratching my eyes out ? And you look , you know you look like you're on stage kicking puppies . So that is a real problem . Right , right , this is really something we have to do .

My contention with it and I want to get your take on this my contention is yeah , but If there are feminists out in the space pushing their ideas , I don't play by their rules .

Rachel Held Evans obviously a deconstructing , radically feminist , just like nasty woman in these things , who will lead you to hell if you listen to her . So that's a big deal . Nadia Bolzweber , claiming to be a pastrix , melting down purity rings to make a vagina statue right , that was her .

And you can go and search , by the way , in my Twitter history and you'll find me defending Pastor Wilson on that from conservative Christians who are rejecting it , because what Doug was doing is exactly in the mold of what the prophet Ezekiel was doing in saying here's a woman who's claiming to speak for God , she's a clergy woman , quote unquote , right , as absurd

as that is . And Doug is reducing her argument to its logical end and saying , basically , what you're saying is this , this isn't being , I don't think unnecessarily this or that . And so he's experienced this dynamic and it does .

I think , some of the time you have to take into account , I'm generally , as much as possible , going to avoid trying to fight a woman like I would a man , and I think we generally tend to do that .

However , sometimes principles are so important and so central that , no matter what the public perception and PR of something is going to be , for the sake of my people , who I'm pastorally counseling and know and know the struggles and know what they're listening to . I'm going to touch that issue .

Even though it's a third rail , I'm going to just take the shock and pray and hope the Lord Jesus resuscitates me on the other side and that it protects the people Right .

So it's not .

I think it's a foundational difference of the nature of the activity we're engaging in .

We walked through the rooms of the house and we talked about what it looks like as a husband and wife working together . This is Titus , to stuff how to be a good parent , how to you know in marriage and how to ?

How do you deal with sin and your parenting and friendships ? So we talked a lot about that . Again , lexi , doing Titus to stuff and saying OK , being a lover of your husband and children involves also knowing what to do when you sin and he sins and someone else sins . We did a Q and A season where people send in like , what do we do with in-laws ?

And again , productive Christian household stuff . And then this Monday we start a new season . We're going to be talking about the good , the true and the beautiful in the Christian household and we'll be talking about many areas of interest that Lexi and I have architecture , art , decor , creating an environment of joy , all these different things .

But what you'll find are there's a few features . One , the goal isn't for my wife to have a platform . That's not the goal . Secondly , she would never .

I'm not going to send her out and do like , ok , lexi is now going to do Breithearth on her own and she's going to start talking a lot about politics and she's going to start talking a lot about doctrinal controversy and things like that . No , she's not going to do that .

Yeah , theological instruction Three I set the outlines for the podcast , do the editing and oversee the whole thing . There's not a word of Breithearth that gets out publicly that I haven't listened to and that's on purpose . Yeah , and that doesn't mean that I've never made a mistake .

I'm sure someone's going to try to find something where Lexi said a sentence that sounded political or something like that , and they'll try to hoist us on her own petard . And what they'd probably find is that if they were correct , I would agree .

I'd be like , oh yeah , that was a miss , because we're not perfect , obviously , but the more we go down the road , when I saw where his law come out , I was like , yes , that's what we're trying to avoid and more of that . And I'm going to be thinking about that law every episode of Breithearth , that we do that kind of thing .

And lastly , lexi , she loves to write , she's very smart , she's very well read . We have great conversations about all this stuff , but her areas of interest tend and bend into the home Again , the breadth of that vocation . It's like natural medicine and taking care of sick children . And as a wife , how can you respect your husband ?

So , even if she does something like she's written a short kind of booklet , sort of somewhere between a booklet and a book , kind of like loving the little years length , about respecting your husband , marital , as a wife , respecting your husband , there will be no doubt about who this book is to , who it's for .

It's for moms , it's for wives and it's going to again be which is tightest , to love your husbands . And it won't even get through the first round of editing without passing through me , as her husband Like . So there's all of these .

And the other thing is the last thing I would say is that this is not something that is a time , a large time commitment for my wife . Once every other week at 8 30 pm after our kids in bed , we have a discussion about stuff we would talk about anyway and record it . I prepare the outline . She's not doing literally .

Usually she knows about the topic five to 10 minutes before , or maybe a text earlier that day and and then we have the team that edits it and , you know , puts it . I do all the other stuff . She's not so . My wife doesn't have a job in this . She's not like a working mama who's got her little podcast empire that she's trying to build .

That's not at all what it is . It's a project that's overseen by her husband , directed into the home . So I wouldn't actually think it's a violation of where he's locked , and I do think about it all the time . But we would not have this .

We wouldn't even be talking about any of the names that we've mentioned in terms of ladies , if that's what they were doing .

I think like , yeah , the last five days , my first two episodes of what have you never listened to the show before ? This is , of course , doug Wilson's daughters , rachel and Becca .

They were sort of addressing the kerfuffle with Ali Bestucky and I'll be honest with you , both episodes I found particularly addressing these subject matters pretty incomplete , or and or unhelpful . Part of the reason is it's similar to Doug .

The ladies keep saying we don't follow the context , we don't know the context , we haven't followed this closely , and to which I would respond . That is apparent . So one of the things about that that's difficult is okay .

Now , here we are again addressing ladies , but we're doing it from the perspective once again , because it's really been our ladies and other ladies in our camp who came to us and said , hey , I really think this wasn't good these episodes , what do you think ? And then we're in a position where it's like , well , we have to respond to that .

So , brian thoughts .

So because of that , I don't like doing a oh what , this person disagreed with you on this thing and that thing , but it really does when it starts to come into , like our people thinking that this is about us , do we believe these things ? And also because I would say these are people that we deeply appreciate , respect , love on our team .

Like definitely pro the Wilson's .

We're literally just , we learned from one of the best living teachers in Christ Christendom and that's Doug Wilson , and he brought us back to a lot of great , great Christian pastors and teachers and taught us a lot of these principles . And now we're looking out and we're like we're just confused and so we're hesitant to criticize .

Like you hear in our voice , hopefully , yeah , I mean , and remember where we are in our season right now . But I mean , the whole Kings Hall project is about building the new Christendom . That's what we want to do . We are actually interested in partnering with people .

We are actually interested in people having different flavors of theology , even like credo-paptist Great . Go for it , you guys . You know Anglicans , hey , you got some work things to work on .

I want Moscow to kill it and I want Ogden to kill it and I want all these people I've been in Luke and Rachel's house twice . They've been incredibly hospitable , been thankful for a lot of the teaching and things they've done Like just absolutely want to honor them and then point out a few things about some where some of the disagreement came in .

One of them is just that a lot of the things that they rejected , they didn't say like this is what Ogden people believe , so I don't want to put that on them uncharitably .

When it comes to like 98% of the stuff that was like are you got 90s purity culture and are you saved by sourdough and these things , it's like well , no , we don't believe any of that and in fact , if anybody is saying those things , please tell us so that we can damn it alongside of you .

We were tagged in it and we alone , and then they're saying this is what the ABS thing was really about . So you might logically conclude that you're talking about Ogden , that's about us , and hopefully not .

But I think , as I was listening to that , I heard things like you know , this is really dangerous , because there are people teaching that you have to make sourdough and have a pretty dress and that's all that biblical womanhood is about , to which we would say that is , that would be a job .

And but again , the little pushback that I would give and it's kind of related to the whole Tradwife conversation , something that we talked about earlier that when people say , look at all these bros who are reducing masculinity to beards and physical strength , and I would say again , well , certainly it is more than that , but the physical , out , exterior and external

things related to the sexed realities that God made , it's not less than those . So I would also say , though , that dresses are wonderful . They're a wonderful way of demonstrating that you are a woman when you dress like a woman , and that sourdough again transgender men we could say .

But some of the things felt like , well , these are not things that we would ever say are reduced femininity or masculinity to , and again , this matters because we're pastoring people who listen to these things .

I know my wife has found them very helpful and then Becca , her book Even Exile , a very helpful critique in many ways on feminism really going out in the public space and really criticizing the feminist ideal , and so we benefited from a lot of that and I think we'll continue to find areas where it's like we're in agreement , nancy .

Even Exile , not even Exile , but the other one , oh , there's two little short ones Fit to Burst , fit to Burst , yep , I've read them both probably five plus times because I regularly try to read works by women to women to help me preach and apply the text more . What are they actually ? What is it like ? What are they thinking like ?

So I read books on grandmothering , mothering , I read books on all this stuff with frequency and have found those books to be helpful . So I don't think like this is not a scorched earth kind of thing .

We're just saying maybe , if there's any confusion , that we're like promoting some of the things I said we're not , but secondly , that a lot of the principles that we're talking about is being so important that we wouldn't bend on them are things that I think that , dave , I've learned from the Moscow tribe , from Toby Sumter and from Pastor .

Obviously to the point , earlier we built a Christian classical school with inspiration from Doug and all their people . So none of those things are true , and I think the big goal in all of this , brian , is , as you said , to continue to assert our principles . A biblical patriarchy .

We certainly want to do that with charity toward the people who are like standing right next to us . Yes , in a lot of these things . That being said , I think it is actually helpful . This whole conversation is was helpful for me because it's really forced me to think through this more .

Yeah , and so if one of the things I would say about one of the guards against women in the agon is you've heard the old trope , right , men will get in a fight and then afterwards we get a beer and it's like I've gotten in some knockdown drag amounts before this podcast with Dan , yeah , but he's one of my best friends , right ?

So , yeah , it doesn't have to be . It's not cats clawing eyes out or anything like that . We're wrestling through ideas . That's making us all better .

And I think about the take in World War Two , with Russia and Germany , where Germany is invading Russia and one of the best ways for Russia to immediately lose that war was to stand at the border , spread all their troops equally about it and fall victim to the .

The quip that Napoleon made to one of his commanders when he showed him his tactical map for how he's going to defend the realm and he said are you trying to defend against smugglers or are you trying to defend against war ? Because smugglers , yeah , evenly spread across the border and fight , you know whatever .

But in a land war , what the Russians did successfully , at great cost , was they traded space for time so they would engage with the where's the enemy ? Put all of our troops there , engage tactical retreat , go back another 20 miles , and they were constantly giving Russian territory to the German forces .

You know , all the way back to Stalingrad and these famous battles , they were giving up land ? Why ? For the sake of time , so that they didn't all die at the first battle . But what was the purpose of it ? It wasn't so that they could keep retreating all the way back into the Barents Sea or whatever is on the other .

I couldn't tell you that public school geography . But you know they didn't do it for that sake . They did it so that they could constantly reform and engage with a weighted counterstroke and make it make every mile that they took costly in men and treasure , in blood and treasure .

So I am willing to say that there are differences in tactics sometimes on when to trade space for time and things like that . On this principle , I believe this is this is an area where it's actually a different metaphor of the training .

It's that this has already been conquered by the progressives and so we're not trading space for time , we're attacking , we're invading .

Well , we're the ones who are saying I'm coming for the capital city of feminism and I'm going to raise the fricking Jolly Roger over it and we're going to , you know , steal all of your , everything back and we're going to put the flag of Christendom over it , and that's going to be what's happening .

We're not defending this territory long abandoned by our last few generations . We are a counterinsurgency , we're going , we're not trading space for time . We're all out of salt , and this is , I think , a key principle . So there might be tactical disagreements at play here Again .

That's why we believe that , politically speaking , it's helpful to have alliances and coalitions across differences , but it's also good to be clear within different camps where the principles are , and just so everybody knows , this is a principle that we're not going to get . We're not going to give up . Yeah , yeah .

It's like when you're working with Dusty Devers my guy Dusty Devers right response . Dusty Devers loves credo baptism so much that I in rate like he probably wanted to punch me in the face several times . He's , like you know , as a paid abaptist , talking about covenant theology and things like that .

I know that if I'm going to do anything with Dusty , dusty is never going to move on credo baptism , and you know what . That's great . I'm actually glad to know that . That's where he stands and I would never ask him to compromise that for the sake of whatever .

But I can work together with Dusty and we can fight abortion and we can fight against no fault divorce and I can politically support him and say I have this guy's back and I'm not watering my principle down or asking him to . And so this is one of those things where we're not trying to say , oh , ceasefire , no ceasefire .

Our guns are all blazing and we're coming for you , moscow , like buckle up . No , we're saying this is one of our core principles over here . We think we learned it from you . We're trying to do it consistently and we have no interest in trading .

You know , machine gun fire with you because we're going to be too busy , you know , trying to reconquer the lands that our fathers gave up .

And then also , I do want to say , you know , as I've listened to some podcasts and all that which we've talked about , I want to take Doug's principle , which has been painful at times for me to adhere to , but steelman your opponent .

If you have a disagreement , like you , go back and you're like okay , point to me where they said that and let's actually look at the argument if that is in fact the thing , and then we can be fair to each other . So I think that's another thing that helps with some of the intramural , you know , so that we don't step on each other's toes too much .

Being fair to each other I think is really helpful . Dan , I want to give you the microphone , because I know how much you covet the microphone and talking and whatnot here to for . So , closing thoughts on this episode's patriarchy , new Christendom , we're sending people out with sort of a charge .

They're not actually winnable , okay . So these principles , you need to drive those from scripture and to tread the old paths . And so , even though this was kind of a little bit of a different episode from the season three , looking at the first Christendom , I think it's really really important as a reminder to understand why are we doing this ?

Are we just looking back at old battles to just , you know , make fun of Muslims , or , you know , to glory and LARP and some , you know , night's battle or something like that ? And the answer is no .

The whole reason that we have this project of new Christendom press at Kings Hall Bright Hearth Hardman podcast , hanukkah's , most Brian's music , like everything that we do the conference is all because we're looking back at the first Christendom and saying that the world was good , there were Christians everywhere , that the underlying society , the cultural background , was

all based on the law of God and on the mercy of Christ and the grace of God in Christ , and that we want to recover , that .

We want to tread the old paths , to clear the rubble , to clear the garbage that modern evangelicalism has built up in shantytowns , and we want to rebuild the first Christendom in a better way , without the errors and everything like that of the first Christendom , so that we can bless our generations and that we can bring glory to God .

And so that is the task before us , and we will not bend , we will not bow , we will not capitulate . We are explicitly conservative and will stand on these biblical principles no matter what , and that is the hill in which we are willing to die on , and so I would encourage you to do that as well . Amen .