The Ogden Mood: NCP 2024 Conference Recap

1 Samuel 22 , verses 1 and 2 . The King's Hall Podcast exists to make self-ruled men who rule well and win the world .

A lot of the energy came from the charge on the last day and , dan , just walk me through your thought process . I'm going to do like the postgame analysis here with you as a reporter . In that moment , when you put the pitties on and you were pumping your fist to Sabaton and the wing to SARS , what were you thinking to Savaton and the wing to SARS ?

We didn't get that far , but I think it was at that point everybody thought I was joking . Uh and and I really .

What happened is I was looking at , I was listening to Steven Wolf and Dr Joe Rigney and you know our esteemed associate Stephen Wolf and Dr Joe Rigney , and you know our esteemed associate Brian Sauve and Joel Webben and I'm like man , I don't have anything like what these guys are bringing . So I better .

I better shroud the lack of content into just a display . No no , no , no my theatrics . No , my theatrics . The thing is what I wanted . My goal was to to really have everybody leave with excitement . That's really what I wanted .

I gave some a charge that you know it might look dire in the time we live in , but do you think does the scripture say that the enemies of God are going to put him under their feet ? You know ?

I was like did he pay people in the audience ?

It's really , I think , about a particular moment in which everybody in our culture , especially young guys , are being disheartened , disenfranchised . But it was a place to go where I heard a lot of people say things like this is the first time in my life I've been around a thousand other people and we're all on the same page .

I'm not the weirdo , I mean we are weirdos All of us , all of us . What do you , I guess ? What do you make of the ?

On staff as a worship leader we would go to the national worship leaders conference and then in our calvary chapel days we'd go to the calvary chapel conferences and , um , a lot of the time conferences are built around basically this idea of how can we get the biggest celebrity name to come and do the thing that they do at 60 conferences a year and give that

same talk over and over again , and it's just going to be . Like Louis Giglio on laminate , laminate . It's shaped like a cross it's holding all things together . I forgot about that . How many golf balls ? Uh , I love it . That was actually . I really like that one hard .

The first time I saw it was like a 12 year old or whatever , but a lot of conferences are built around that and intentionally , from the beginning , um , we said we want to bring in speakers that we don't care if they have a the biggest platform . We're not just going to pick the people we think will like quote , sell tickets , that kind of thing .

We want to bring in guys that we want to hear from on a topic that we think is interesting and , even more than that , we're going to actually even send them like , hey , this is exactly what we want you to talk about . We don't want you to like necessarily recreate the thing . We've all read the book , we've all read that . Go deeper on this .

We want to hear about this particular thing . And oh , by the way , nothing you say will make us cancel you , virtually , I mean , because we know that we're inviting Christian men , don't be a heretic . They're not . They're not heretics , they're not ungodly men , they're not going to do anything crazy , but we really want to hear the things that you'd be like .

I don't know if this would get published , I don't know if this would get run on the blog , on the big blog . Just give us your best shot . And I think what that does over time because that's how we approach all of our content here is like let's just , we want to know what is true , what is timely and what to do about it .

And in my talk I framed it like this like why are the ? Why is everybody here ? Why are you guys here ? And I suspect that the reason they're all here vast , explosive growth from one year to the next in terms of conference attendance coming to Ogden , excitement about the conference and about getting together .

I really think that a lot of it has to do with this fact that when they come to this conference , they know that we're not going to punch right at them . It's not going to be a conference where we just try to discourage all of the zeal out of them or where we try to take all of the vinegar out of their . You know what is it ?

Well , I can't say the whole thing . Anyway , like we take all of the fire out of these guys . We actually want to say , yeah , don't sin , but like let's , let's flip , and go .

Right , and it's not that we don't care about that deeply , but when you're thinking through topics that were covered in the conference , this is really sort of the what time is it ? What's , yeah , what's the pressing issue of the day ? What do Christians have to face ?

And it is interesting because you made a joke that I think really hit hard at one of our favorite people . Excuse me , least favorite people , but it was Michael Strahan's little brother . Michael Strahan , of course , the New York Giants Hall of Fame defensive end , owen Strahan , is that how you say ?

You can be belittled as an idolater for loving weightlifting by a man who hasn't seen his toes since 1994 . You're probably not here for that .

You're probably here for someone to tell you , like we're Christians , go charge the hill in the spirit of Caleb , go build your business , go be King Alfred's in your communities , be pastors and political leaders and businessmen and fathers , in the spirit of these great men from our history , and the Lord is on our side . So charge the hill .

And I think so often the instinct of pastor types when they get a big group of Christians together is to be like this is the time when I really need primarily to kind of scold everybody . Like I know you guys have been doing a lot of sins . Let me , let me scold you .

I can think of 10 or 15 in my and I got 10 or 15 points on all the sins you guys have been doing and it's like , yeah , go to church , be convicted by the word of God and the preaching of it , confess your sin weekly , be clean , come to the table , be restored to fellowship .

But the major , like the major note that I wanted this conference to hit and I think that did hit is , instead of that , luke 12 , 32 , fear not , little flock . It is the father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom . It's Psalm 37 . Yeah , yeah , yeah , like Dan's charge , everybody , the whole world , may be arrayed out there and looking strong .

They might look like a great green laurel tree swallowing everything up , but God is going to knock them down . You are going to inherit the earth , so don't fear , build , be Christians .

And , like so often , I think I just well , I just can't think of another time when I've gone to a conference where every aspect of the conference is actually geared towards encouraging exhortation and the theme of the Lord being on our side in our building , instead of yeah , yeah , yeah , god , he died for you and that's all true , but he's mainly disappointed with

you most of the time . You guys really need to shape up .

It says everyone who was in distress , everyone who was in debt , everyone who was bitter in soul , they gathered to David and David gave them a mission . It says he became commander over them and they were . There were with him about 400 men .

So it's interesting to me , when you look around at the , the people at the conference , and I look at broader reform circles , uh , that we're all kind of adjacent to .

There's a lot of the legacy guys in our world who are like , really do not like what we're doing , really don't like the fact that , um , you know , dan would put on pities and not counter signal , uh , because generally , anybody in our camp who's going to talk about white boy summer , they're going to counter signal it . They're going to counter signal theonomy .

They're going to counter signal anything that is not pietism . So , as you think about winning the hearts of men and women and you think about the conference .

I mean , I don't know what your take would be , but I look at it and I think I am humbled , I'm honored when people come up and they say with especially grown men , manly men with tears in their eyes , and they say your content has changed my life , thank you , have a nice day To see the impact and to sense that maybe there are really wonderful , mighty

people who've been disenfranchised , gathering , whether it's around us , whether it's around Joel , but collaborating . Just what do you make of that ? Do you think it is sort of a cave of a Doolam situation ?

And when you look at the conference and you have , you know , a very excited group of people , you know a thousand people and , like Brian had mentioned , the temptation is to say like God is disappointed in you but he's actually for you .

You know that's , that's part of the point , and I I think one of the temptations with older men , um , because I can feel this pull at times , being somewhat crotchety myself is is to temper zeal , like , yeah , when you see it , not , not temper zeal , that's wrong uh to stamp it to knock it down , to extinguish zeal , to see younger men that have zeal and to

say , OK , settle down sport when you get to my age you'll see how really that's just all what's the word .

Let me tell you about all the vainglory of working out instead of saying like , hey , I'm young men you are strong , yeah , you're strong let just first john to first john , young men , you are strong . Be strong for this purpose , etc so keep making your point now yeah now that we've thoroughly and sufficiently interrupted .

Like it is actually difficult to pastor , it's difficult to do the work we do .

We sit in a basement and we record these podcasts and people are blessed by them and I'm super encouraged by that and don't don't get me wrong but the day in and day out grind of counseling , of of bearing people's burdens and and helping them through really genuinely difficult situations .

After a while you can see the temptation to say like , hey , you don't understand , you haven't been bearing the weight I've been bearing , you just need to settle down . Like this your zeal is is too much . Like just just settle down a little bit and you can feel the pull . But instead , what was really helpful for me ?

You can feel the pull , but instead what was really helpful for me coming out of the conference I hope it was helpful for everyone else , but I'm going to be selfish and talk about myself is that I looked around at all of the zealous families Cause there was tons of kids , tons of of you know husbands and wives that are trying to lead their families , thinking

generationally , having a positive vision for the future and I looked around and I was like , yes , this , the weight is great and it's a lot to bear and it is so worth it because all of these people are on our side and the Lord is blessing them , and the Lord is working and the Lord is producing fruit , and the Lord is working and the Lord is producing

fruit . And so why would one stoop so low as to discourage the , the workers that God has called into the harvest , to say the work is too great , you are , you're not qualified . How dare you think that you can harvest so much ? You know you peons , like , just settle down , you know it , it . It doesn't make sense for older men to do that .

But instead of directing the zeal , that's what they should be doing , instead of crushing it .

It reminds me of this proverb when I can't remember the address but the glory of a king is his people , right , and you think about the Lord , the King of Kings his glory is his people . So when you're looking out at why was it so glorious , why was it so encouraging ?

And it was like it wasn't , because everybody's razzed by these amazing razzed is the wrong word Everybody's jacked up by this insane eloquence of speakers who were yelling and shouting and you know , no , the glory is the people , yes , and the glory that that , as pastors and as teachers and in any way that we have a publicly influential teaching ministry , the goal

and the glory is that those people would go and be a glory . It's that . It's not that Stephen Wolfe and Joe Rigney and some pastors and leaders alone here in the ecclesiastical sphere and the scholarly sphere that they would go and just be do glorious book writing . That's important . They should crush it in those things God has put in front of them .

But the real glory is going to come when all of these people , these normal mothers and fathers and their children , who are working businesses and doing all sorts of their ordinary vocations the Lord has called them to .

It's when they believe that the Lord is on their side , that God is working in their working , that they're doing something massively significant with their lives and strength , that they're doing something massively significant with their lives and strength , that they're a part of something far bigger than themselves . They belong to a people .

They belong to a Lord who has named them and given them meaningful things to do . And so why wouldn't you go with all of your might and all of your strength and fight dragons and build castles and do your duty ?

This thing in past conferences I've gone to , I've almost felt like I needed to apologize when I spoke to one of the speakers there because I'm not a pastor , you know like at the time I wasn't , I wasn't in the clergy is like , oh , I'm just a worm , like I'm , I'm not , I haven't ascended to the , to the heights as you have , you know , and the .

The thing that you and and and Joel and Steven really hit on were were your vocations actually do matter and in fact , we don't have enough of you . Yeah , it's not that there's not enough of me , there's . It's not that there's not enough clergy there are .

Obviously there's a need for pastors , but for men to operate in the lanes in which God has gifted them and equipped them and called them to operate in , and being businessmen and and being , you know , good employees and being all of these things that they're already doing , giving men permission to be what they are .

He can speak eloquently and intelligently about all these matters of doctrine , church history , church controversies , like he can handle all those things . He has good character . That's a good aspiration . A pastor ought and an elder ought in many ways to be an ideal man in the congregation , Of course , rule his house well .

But there's a sort of a bad version of that where we present essentially the theology nerd that only knows how to study doctrine in his den , in his study , that kind of pastoral vision of the pastorate as the ideal man . And then most of the people in the congregation , most of the men , are like that's great .

I basically constantly feel like a failure and maybe I should go get an MDiv , Maybe , like all of the good guys , just go to seminary and ought to get some study . And instead of that we absolutely need more courageous , bold pastors who are pastoring and shepherding and teaching .

Well , we need more of that , but we actually need to focus on training and leading , and leading towards having elites and successful men in every sphere of the world and actually to present that as a vision of success .

Like the guy , the amount of glorious impact that , let's say , a guy that starts a moderately successful business in a place like Ogden , like , employs a hundred people a moderately successful business , by the way , is not doing a couple hundred thousand a year , they're doing 10 million plus . They're doing millions and millions of dollars of business in a place .

They then have leverage to hire Christians to help other men fulfill their duties . They start to have political sway in an area and , like , all of these benefits come when that guy doesn't . That high , high capacity guy doesn't think well , I , I , I , the . I think the Lord gave me 10 talents in terms of abilities to think and lead and do these things .

I'm , I'm , I'm supposed to be a pastor . Some of them actually are supposed to be business leaders . Some of some of them are supposed to be state . Well , didn't Joel ?

and his talk , say like half of you that are pastors shouldn't be , and that's , and he I know Joel's probably like in the room , like he's not trying to belittle , but if you look out that's how many pastors shouldn't be pastors . But if you look out that's how many pastors shouldn't be pastors .

You know , there were a lot of guys where it's like you should actually just be a VP of marketing somewhere , or you should be .

You know , there were a lot of churches where it's like you know and again , not to discourage people , but Joel made this point about balkanization there's a lot of churches where I saw , you know , a guy labor for seven years with 15 people and they never made progress and they never grew , and it's like , well , how much are you actually going to be able to

get done ? You know , in terms of changing culture , fighting a fight that's going to be impactful on a broader scale , et cetera . Now , certainly , people are called to do works like that . Don't want to denigrate it , but I did think of all the talks , joel , I I don't know Like I feel like we've been Joel maxing after that talk .

Somehow like it was both the one of the funniest talks I've ever heard in my life and also one of one of the most like . I'm going to listen to that several times I actually from from the conference attendees .

And so it is funny too , though , because you look , right now we talked about Michael Strahan's little brother . Part of part of it , though , is Joel is the one that will be targeted the most .

And so there was this Marcy Knight you know dichotomy that was set up and Duff and then Owen Owen Strahan . They had both said you know , the new Testament says love your enemies , but Joel says crush your enemies .

And the reason it melts their brain is because they seem only to be able to think in terms of the ecclesiastical sphere and category . So they're thinking about Christians as individuals and how Christians as individuals are not called to seek vengeance for themselves , personal vengeance , but to entrust themselves to the Lord .

How we are called to bless those who curse us . How we are called to do all sorts love our enemies Absolutely . But what Joel was talking about contextually in that section of his talk was not primarily about Christians as individuals and he was actually not talking primarily about the Christians within the ecclesiastical sphere .

He's primarily talking about Christians as they come together in political coalition . He's talking about politics . He's talking about what are the duties of a good Christian ruler ? What would it look like for us to actually gain and wield political influence righteously ? And what you find there Martyrdom is the correct answer . Right , that's all they think of .

But what you find there is that the scriptures , romans 13 in particular . One of the things that it says is the duty of the deaconate , the public deacon of God's justice , the civil magistrate is to punish the wrongdoer .

That happens to be a very important category right now , in our day , for Christians to get a handle on . In a nation where we're prime , where we are majority professed to be Protestant Christians , which is the United States of America , particularly our rulers , the majority of them claim to be Christians .

Even in the Congress , the Senate like you could look at this the demographics , the majority of our executive leaders in the , the office of the president , majority of Supreme Court like you can , you can look through they all claim to be Christians .

And Joel's saying if you're Christians , you should be crushing the enemies of God and his people in rewarding the righteous . As the saying goes , gold is the money of kings , silver is the money of gentlemen , but debt is the money of slaves .

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This is also why Stephen Wolf is hated , though , because the whole concept of a nation is that you should be for your own interests and the interests of your people .

So it's really interesting , brian , because you look at , like Stephen's talk , which I thought yet again one of the I mean , in a way , I've heard it before , but I was also like I cannot believe I'm at a Christian conference hearing a talk about how you know white Anglo Protestants and the culture they produced , which includes many people like Clarence Thomas ,

chuck Knox , many non whites , but white Anglo Protestant culture . We should be for our culture .

His arguments are , um , finely tuned machines that work together in cascades of propositions that result in powerful arguments versus Joel . That's just like crush your enemies and reward your friends , both telling the truth in their own way .

Stephen Wolfe , by the time you were done , it was like irrefutably , what he just demonstrated historically and on multiple levels is that America as a nation is an Anglo-Protestant nation and it is righteous for us and that is in decline and under attack and only vestigially remains in many ways .

But we should want that again and we should fight politically to reclaim that .

But one of the things that gave rise to Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and sort of the intellectual dark web , you know , one of the things that I think gave rise to King's Hall and the stuff we're doing , even with Haunted Cosmos , really was talking to the taboo talking in Christian circles about the things that most Christians wouldn't talk about .

So , dan , I Dan , I guess just to ask you , why is it so important ? One of the charges I guess I get the most , even from friends in our circles , is well , you're just a shock jock , you're trying to engagement farm and my contention would be well , sometimes but what's wrong with engagement farming ?

Yeah , but also we speak to the taboo because we believe in principle that the things we're speaking to are very important . So why is it important to talk about taboo ?

It's because we're landing outside of the permissible narratives , the things that everybody agrees on , like oh , these are where the battle lines are .

You know , you can see this a lot in politics , like Republicans are going to take a generally pro-life stance and Democrats are going to take a pro capital punishment , you know , depending on the severity of the crime , and that's outside of the permissible narrative . He touched on a taboo , but he also said something that needed to be said .

He needed to say that there are other reasons why it's really important to talk to the taboos , other than everybody's thinking about it and nobody says says it first . It displays courage . It also is actually what gets things done . It's what actually moves the narrative . You want to see the Overton window shift .

You have to talk about the things that people are afraid to talk about , the things that are outside of your standard political talking points , If you actually want to see things get changed . This is what the left has been doing for decades and they've been absolutely decimating Christian culture for decades .

Because they are willing to talk to the taboos , they're willing to say like hey , you know the , the , you know homosexual , LGBTQ rights . Um , uh , trans and kids is fine Tranny story hour , like the whole deal . They just keep pushing pushing harder and harder and we look at it and go that's gross , that's disgusting .

They're talking to the taboos while we're too uh cowardly to actually talk outside of the permissible , you know narrative .

A lot of them , even if you go back 10 years , 15 years , they didn't necessarily agree with like the most radical edge of the LGBTQ agenda and that sort of thing . They would maintain that 80 percent body of them .

They would maintain center in the Overton window with even saying like hey , we're not for gay marriage , we're for civil unions and that sort of thing .

Meanwhile , five to 10 percent some smaller percentage of their radicals were fomenting revolution for literally insane ideas compared to that , like thruple marriages and pederasty as part of the spectrum of sexual attraction as normative and all these things . What you would never find is that 80 percent body of the left count constantly counter signaling their radicals .

Instead , they let them slowly move the Overton window and then they kept the center . So if you compare Joe Biden's statements about sexuality today to what he said in 2010 , to what he said in 2000 , he's a total hypocrite and it's not it's . He doesn't actually ever have a real principle other than his power and the consolidation of his power .

What the right does , though , it has partly to do with the nature of conservatism as conserving something against radical progressivism .

They view right wing radicals and they have the same instinct to chop down progressivism , chop down radical , the radical nature of like a let's change everything sort of narrative , and so they constantly counter , signal their radicals and shut them down .

They cooperate with the left in destroying them , and what happens is they slowly move to the left , along with the moderate leftists . The Christian church does the same thing . They allow for the mainstream narrative , which is the way of establishing credibility within the mainstream .

You go through their institutions , you kiss the required rings , you go through the required gatekeepers . You're not allowed to say certain things or talk about certain issues .

So the way now in a loss of trust economy where all of our institutions have collapsed in terms of respectability , like there is no mainstream credibility establishing mechanism within evangelicalism today . How do you actually get credibility today , real , authentic credibility that God would approve of ?

You have to say what were those things that you weren't allowed to talk about if you wanted mainstream conservative credibility .

Oh , those are probably exactly the things that we need to talk about , because those are the places where you're idolaters , those are the places where you've given way , and so what that does is it establishes a new mechanism , I hope , for establishing credibility around courage and truth telling .

But I also think there's a principle here with the mighty men , and this years ago I was listening to a series of sermons by Matt Truello about how God loves to work through bands of small , small groups of men . Right Gideon's 300 , the 400 mighty men .

I think even in American evangelicalism we have this conception that we need a super majority to get anything done . Right , when you look at the way God has written history , that's just not how he works Almost never true . It's also not how the left has operated .

And this is biblical patriarchy , smashing feminism , but going back to do some reform resourcement . So , brian , I want to ask you this book has been really exciting for me . I think it has been for you as well , but why is it so important that we do something like say something radical , but then we're going to tie it to the reform fathers ?

Why is that so important ?

He said quote the efforts over the last several years to retrieve classical Protestant sources and thereby to critique 20th century innovations has been a rather safe enterprise so far being confined largely to reform doctrine , not its practice . But why not return to the reform practice of old ?

Why not take reformed works on civil polity and domestic duties just as seriously ? Arguably , we are more out of step with them in matters of practice than in points of doctrine . This work by Zach Garris forces us to choose between the safe retrieval of doctrine alone and the dangerous retrieval of both faith and practice .

It forces us to ask if we're really taking our tradition seriously .

That's good , and the heart of what Dr Wolf nails in that about this is true of his own book to the case for Christian nationalism , it's true of Zach's book on or thy fathers is that the way that the reformed establishment has worked of late is that you can recover everything related to the head and the mind in doctrinal areas , but the head and the mind has

been disconnected from the hands and the strength . It's like a car that has a glorious engine and it's got 600 horsepower and it's you know , it can absolutely just run . This thing is like the , a sports car engine , finally tuned and reformed . Theologians are like guys who they make their life study that engine .

They could tell you everything about it displacement , everything about its build quality , all of the specs , about what , what it's able to do at zero to 16 , and all this stuff . But then the thing is they won't allow you to ever put it in gear . They won't ever let the engine go in gear .

The minute someone tries to put the thing in first gear , they're like whoa , you're going to break it , like stop .

And the disconnect is reformed practice versus reformed doctrine , where if we go back and we actually start doing resourcement of the whole reform tradition , their , their practice as well , like Gouge on the family , the , the , the men that Stephen Wolf's book talks about in the political sphere of city fathers , you start to run into danger because all of a sudden

you're not just , you can't just stop by telling Christians what to think . You actually have to tell them what to do . And the problem is they're not practicing any of the things their reformed forefathers they claim to love were practicing in key areas of human life like political life and family life .

So Zach goes back and he says first half of the book it's a really simple book in many ways . First half of the book what did the classical reform sources , first and second generation reformers , et cetera , the Westminster Assembly , what did they believe about the family ?

What did they believe about the roles of men and women in the church and the family and the Commonwealth ? Okay , this is just what they said . Here's the disagreements . Here's Calvin and Knox disagreeing over certain aspects of female rule and things like that . Yeah , but here's like the body of what they agreed on . Now , second half of the book what did Tim ?

What does Kellerism get us ? What do modern reform ? What is Napark teaching about this ? What is actually happening in the reform world today ? And all , and just by simply putting both of those pictures up in front of the reader , he's he's very kind to the people that he interacts with .

By the way , the reader will go oh , our reformed people aren't reformed when it comes to these things , are they ? And the question is that that forces you to ask whenever you find disagreement between how you think and live and your Christian forefathers .

It doesn't mean they were automatically right on every point , but you do have to ask were they right and did their way of doing things produce better fruit ? Or does our way of doing things like sex , like are we more healthy in the family and the roles of men and women today than they were ? Yeah , and it's like .

Right , he actually explicitly advocates siding with the mainline liberals , maintaining—what he wants to do is maintain reform , soteriology . So this is where the pietism comes in . Like you can talk about , you know , calvinistic views of salvation that's fine , even doctrine of Christ .

But Keller will say , like we need to jettison all the things you're talking about , uh , family , political , household . Um , I think Zach shows pretty convincingly that that will never work .

But we're just like the shadow . We're slightly behind them , but we're still following them to perdition .

Like you don't get transgender tranny pastors in the Lutheran apostate churches , you know , until you've already had a longstanding tradition of we're going to let Deaconess Susan run the elder , basically run the elder board , which seems much more respectable . Oh , we only have male pastors at this fund , at this conservative Christian church .

Oh , but Deaconess Susan , she's actually manipulating and running the show behind the scenes . And then you get past tricks , susan , and then you get tranny past tricks . And then , like , what you have to do is actually say what's the principle ?

Let's go all the way back and find where we departed , and then let's go stand on that principle and bring it back into practice today and what you'll find . By the way , then when you do that because we've done that at Refuge Church people will slander you as novel radical . They'll say that you're the neo-patriarchy , you're the radical patriarchy .

Like you see , ladies on Michelle Leslie , I think , often uses this tactic . She'll say , like these radical patriarchy guys and it's hard to get her to admit that she's actually talking about me and Joel or something like that .

But what you find when you investigate that claim is that we're not radical neo-patriarchalists , we're not vision forum Gothardites whom we've never even read . We're getting all of this from William Gouge , from John Knox , from John Calvin . We're getting this from the reformed tradition .

The way that the historic church before the insanity of the modern leftist Christianity in many ways , and modern novelties like complementarianism in many ways , is just , it's a modern novelty . At its best it's just patriarchy and at its worst it's just slow motion egalitarianism . So we're not some new thing , we're not some radical neo-patriarchy .

We're just patriarchy , biblical , historic , christian patriarchy . This is what our forefathers believed . Have you investigated your own presuppositions and reckoned with how much of them have been formed by the feminism that is in the water supply Like fluoride , like you're drinking this day . It's like the birth control pills . It's making the frogs gay .

Egalitarianism is in the drinking water and it's making the churches gay . Right , have we reckoned with that ? I think Stephen's book forces us to reckon with some of these things and at least admit I disagree with Calvin . Yeah , what did I say ? Stephen's Stephen ? Yeah , I'm just like Stephen .

It's probably going to be him , so we're shipping that out of house . Here we have a beautiful hardcover edition . Look , whether you like dust jackets or not , if you take it off , you're still going to have a beautiful book . We've got some gold plated . I don't know what you call that Gold foil stamp Gold foil stamp Gold foil .

We stole Joe Rigney's image of feminism as Medusa , so we have the Medusa with the head , the decapitated Medusa head on the cover which was really funny , by the way , because you were giving the pitch at the conference and I was standing backstage with Joe Rigney and you said , yeah , we just ripped this off of Joe , it's great .

And Joe looked at me and he goes . Really , you got that from me , he goes , that's awesome .

Joe's talks um so practical on the logistics of building Christian boroughs and thick Christian communities and also how to protect those communities from the empathy manipulation of feminine sensibility gone wild and super , super like required listening for leaders and building community . So I just wanted to not forget Joe's talks .

Resources , dan , I do want to get your take on the book . Uh , why is it important in this moment ? Resources , dan , I do want to get your take on the book .

Because one thing was very clear when you allow for a forum , you know , a platform in which people can speak to their strengths , their what they really know , what they truly believe , and are not afraid of speaking to the taboos , they will win , they will absolutely kill it .

I mean , I appreciate those guys so much for the time that they put into those talks . Speaking with Stephen Wolf before he gave his talk , I said oh , this is probably just another conference for a guy like you . I've never met the guy before and he's like no , this one I took very seriously .

I spent a lot of time on this talk and he did , and the same can be said . So that's what the talks . But also with Zach's book is that one of the things that we want to do is give people an opportunity to speak to the taboos , and Zach did that very well , with eloquence and with a lot of time . It's not a very long book .

It's not going to be a 600 page , very dense , you know , essentially like seminary type of school textbook . This is a very approachable book that punches very , very hard and has a lot of references , and so one of the things that will be very , very helpful for you is to read the footnotes and to use those resources .

It's really a good tool for resource management so you can go back to the reformers and see what they actually said , and he quotes a lot of them and I find that to be particularly helpful . So this book is more than just a book that's about patriarchy . It's actually for resourcement .

He includes a section in the epilogue on the longer catechism which is greater years and inferior years in its original wording before we started to tinker with it to make it less offensive to modern sensibilities .

Stuff like that makes it a book that , if you read it well , you could be chasing down this subject , just from the work that Zach has put in in curating these resources for you for the rest of your life , forever . I mean , it's a huge amount .

So that's that's what I would say about the book .

I think I'm very proud that this is the work that we we have we have done in that I'm very proud of Zach in the work that he's he's put into this and very grateful for all of the time and the thought and a lifetime of thinking and of studying that he was able to condense in this work for us , and I really just hope that it's a blessing to you guys .

And so , um , grab one , because it's it's not always like five minutes to get another run of this type of book . We're going to plan on releasing it as well in audio formats and Kindle and things like that , but this first run I think it's going to be a book that you can reference quite a bit . This is the edition I'd want on my shelf of this book .

I , by the way , I did have people who are aware . A lot of the conference goers were like I noticed there was an issue , but you guys handled it well , whatever . But , yeah , dan , just walk me through that .

And there were there were other men that that we had there as well that do this , uh , professionally , and so they were . They were kind of taking the reins with sound and such , and and part of the reason that we did that as one , we just wanted to have a really flawless audio experience .

We were also doing a lot of recording , and then Eric had gone to an event at Ogden High previously and the sound was , it wasn't even on , it was incompetent , it was , yeah , it was atrocious .

But then I don't know what happened from there because we hadn't had any talks or anything like that , but one of them had a disagreement with Eric Kahn .

We get there on registration day , we're doing our setup and they are moving like an entire huge marching band through the hallway , and so that was kind of the first thing . We said hey , what's up with this , what's going on ? And then we realized they were like well , we actually I don't know how , but the event is double booked .

We were like we've paid thousands of dollars for the venue and uh , it for the venue and it's classic government incompetency to have , um , this level .

I mean , it would be like a dentist that you go to have your , you know , and instead of cleaning your teeth , they pull out all of your teeth and you're like that's not just like a , my bad , you've actually made it . So our event is not going to work at all If there's a marching band playing marching band music 50 feet from our speakers . Right ?

Because they made a mistake , uh , and it was showing and there was some strife and , uh , one of the high school girls got in Eric Kahn's face and um , and was very rude to Eric and and , and that was unfortunate , um , so my , I took action from there to try to figure out how do we , how do we figure out this band situation , and so I was trying to get

a hold of the school administrator and we I was leaving him you know text messages and voicemails , and I couldn't get a hold of him . Messages and voicemails and I couldn't get ahold of him .

And so I drove to his office and come to find out the entire school administrative staff was at a golf event and so no one was there , um , and so that was somewhat unfortunate , by the way , we should do a golf event for all of our employees .

I mean , I don't understand , uh , being in , how how much was the renovation for the for the venue that we were in ? It was 70 or 80 million dollars . 70 or 80 million dollars , yeah , and then they're at a golf event . I just uh , anyway , there's your tax dollars , hard at work , so anyway , um , I did eventually get a hold of the school administrator .

At that point , I asked I said well , I need to speak with your supervisor . Then and all the girls and the other girl who got in my face , they why , why do you need to talk to a supervisor ? You can talk to us ? And I was like well , I need somebody who can actually fix this . And so it's not a personal thing , it's just we need a solution .

You're not providing one . I need to talk to somebody who can . And part of what we were doing is I had some photos and video of the students moving their stuff through our hallway so I could send to the guy and say , hey , see what's happening and that . That that's when the girl got in my face and she was like you can't film minors .

And so I could already tell this was sort of going to become like weaponized and I said , hey , listen , I don't have anything to say to you . Uh , if you know , I'll talk to your supervisor . That's fine . And yeah , she was belligerent and she said why ? Because you'll only talk to a man .

respectful and kind , professional , and all of a sudden they're accusing us of sexism and like all of the leftist buzzwords basically , which later to dan's point , they denied .

And so she lied . And it's important because there's going to be a theme that comes out through this . This whole story is and unfolds , whole story as it unfolds . And so we , we were able to work with the band they .

They were very inconvenienced and they were upset with the , with the school as well Not with us necessarily , because we're both kind of victims to their incompetencies . And so they , they practiced far away and it ended up working out Okay . There were some security concerns . Obviously , you've got thousands of . There are hundreds of students .

It was a hundred person marching band . You have dozens of students and walking through the hallways and we have security staff and they had taken the door frames apart . Yeah , I don't know if you guys are aware but there are people that don't really care for us very much .

Even locally there are people that don't really like us very much , so security is definitely a concern . We had to make sure that everybody had a badge know name tag when they came in for registration , and so things became very challenging .

I know the state of our public schools are horrible and wicked , but I mean , when we say like 100 students coming through , I mean 100 , when some of these students are in their early teens to mid teens , and they're dressed in the most ridiculously inappropriate sexual ways .

Security saw this happen . She's talking to students before they enter the building , kind of getting them fired up . And those students became started actually stripping down to less clothing when yelling at everybody going through the hallway , yelling at each other .

And then you know , you had like guys grabbing each other's rear ends and saying like , oh , how do you like that ? Blah , blah , blah .

And so I gave her the thousand mile stare that I'm somewhat famous for now . And then I said , ok , do you have any description of the person ? Everybody's conveniently wearing name tags , and so do you have any description or evidence , any witnesses of cameras ? And she said , no , we don't . We don't have any evidence , essentially .

And I said , ok , I will go and request evidence . We'll warn people at the conference that if they have any evidence they should come to us and we'll immediately remove that person . And , as Eric pointed out , we discovered no evidence .

Investigation determined that it was the young lady that was particularly rude to Eric , that seemed to be inciting behavior from the students .

And so the conclusion that one comes to in this case , when you have a lack of evidence and lack no evidence , and you see certain types of behavior that false , a false accusation had been levied against us in an attempt to discredit us .

We were anything but that . We were trying to be professional at all times .

But then , very quickly , like as I'm driving back home to get changed and come back to the conference , I'm also thinking God ordained this for a reason , right , and you know , some of the lessons learned from it , I think , are just yeah , again , it's just that thing in our world . Our world is crazy .

People are in complete denial of reality , and so , as Christians , you have to be prepared for this sort of thing . You've got to know that the world around you is going to hate you , and that doesn't mean that you should stop . It probably means that you know shots are over the target , and so keep going .

I do want to commend our conference goers , though , because we did have some . You know , in our culture especially , we had some spicy young guys there . There's a lot of people who believe a lot of things very fervently . I thought they actually handled themselves very well nobody took the bait .

Yes , and you , and then you will just heap condemnation on them , as they have nothing evil to say to you with it . They can actually demonstrate it truly happened .

And and that's why I think it's so important with um , you know , the cave of Abdullam , you know , and that idea , when you , when you attract the disaffected , when you attract the young men like that , you're actually winning them to something . You're winning them to the tribe .

And it's especially important to have leaders that are encouraging these young men and winning their hearts . Because what does it produce ?

Tempered zeal , zeal in the right direction , that's what it produces , so that you don't have young men that are just completely lacking in self-control , just letting go to the harm of them and to everyone else around them , but instead they can actually control their zeal , because they have to do it for the sake of the tribe and for the sake of their people .

That's why white boy summer is so important , by the way . That's why it's important , because it curates a love for you and your people and for your tribe , and it's not at the cost of others . It's for the sake of the people that you love .

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Uh kind of final thing I want to ask you guys about we did also have a speaker panel . Uh , I thought went really well . I don't know who the host is or was , but he was .

I'm kind of getting a feel for the guys . A lot of times you do these panels at conferences and guys say I don't want to talk about this , I don't want to talk about that . But it's actually Joe Rigney who came up and he just said I know you probably want to ask about X , y and Z . He said it's all fair game , I'll answer any question .

And everybody on the panel . I thought it's like look , I said in the beginning , look , we're going to duke it out , we're going to have some disagreements , we're all going to remain friends .

But for me it was so important to have a conversation about things that we're simply not allowed to talk about , and so I also want to applaud these guys for being willing to just address it head on , and I think we did that . A lot of good . Discussion about Christian nationalism .

And then we talked to Allie Beth , discussion about Christian nationalism , and then it , you know , we talked to Allie Beth , had some , I think , good discussion about that , and then closed with , you know , talking about the Jews , which was , you know , kind of a providential blessing .

But , like the day before Thomas Massey had said , you know , all my colleagues are Republicans , are controlled by APAC , which is , you know , jewish fundraising efforts , lobbyist efforts .

But he's basically our guy that uh would have that panel . It just doesn't exist .

Yeah , right , like the fact that you had Dr Wolf , who's not a pastor , he's a scholar in , in , in some of his areas of expertise that we're talking about , is able to bring cause .

A lot of us are pastors and so we tend in pastoral directions , which there is always this instinct of like hey , yeah , don't make the Jews your whole personality , don't do this . Like and I actually think that's that's a good exhortation to give to guys we're thinking pastorally . Don't go buy a $90,000 pickup truck on credit and then be like .

The Jews did this to me . It was their usury , and you're like well , the usury was really bad , but you you actually shouldn't have bought it , yeah . And then , but Steven , to bring the , the , the , he just create courage to say like People are allowed to be interested in things .

You know what ?

This is why it's important that we don't just have pastors Exactly Speaking to these issues and I , and I think in a in a like a small encapsulated way , it illustrates point that in any of these circles , you're going to need pastors , you're going to need intellectuals , we need an elite class of tweeds who are not taking shots at us all the time , but you're

going to have popularizers . You're going to have , you know , really I think , guys like Zach Garris , who wasn't there , but Zach Stephen Wolf , really academic , they know their history . That's really beneficial .

It was kind of tense because there was there was disagreement there and there was some jockeying and there was some very direct words , and it was phenomenal . And so you go from tension and then I'm up next . And then that's what I walk out of the wig to SARS like this . Really serious conversation . That has actually big implications .

We were still talking about the all this stuff , yeah and uh , it was that was really really valuable to to be , to have . Like , some of the value of these conferences for attendees is all the people that you get to meet and form coalitions and friendships with across distance , realize you're not crazy and you're not alone .

And then also for the conversations that can happen between speakers , and that in the in private and face to face speakers , and that in the in private and face to face . Well , you figure out a lot of times like where where disagreement really actually does lie and where agreement lies .

And almost in every case , when you get face to face , you find out that the agreement is bigger than the , that the disagreements were actually bigger in a . They had the illusion of being bigger than they were . Yeah , and you're like oh we actually agree with like 96 of this . This and it's an important 4% here .

I just was so impressed , particularly with Joe Rigney , because , joe , you know he would say things in the green room that were like , hey , I don't understand this topic , walk me through it , what are you thinking ? He was just so fair and thoughtful and inquisitive and willing to listen . He'd make his point , a lot of his points .

I thought , yeah , that's good , I haven't thought about that , that's an important . But to Brian's point , it helped us walk away and I thought these differences that we might have on social media that feel like the Atlantic Ocean , are actually just a puddle to step across .

And to Brian's point too , I think you've said this repeatedly on and off air , but being able to have that discussion , have different boroughs that maybe see that a little differently . Maybe you have a Calvin Knox situation with an Ali Best Stucky . You know Moscow is more of the Calvin , we're more of the Knox , probably to use that analogy .

Read the book , you know what I'm talking about .

But then to say that's OK , we don't have to go to war with each other over that we can hold that distinction , maintain the distinction , maintain the uniqueness of our monoculture , and then still say , hey , you know , go moscow , really appreciate you guys , full send and recognize that a huge amount of people in the ogden borough love and are listening to

everything canon press puts out , that a huge amount of people in the Ogden borough love and are listening to everything Canon press puts out .

2 000 people that is that is one of the key problems with conservatives . Yeah , that's one of the key problems with conservatives . That's part of the the shooting . Their radicals thing is that they can't tolerate . They have a micro , uh , tolerance for disagreement , sometimes in coalition building , like you see nancy pelosi standing next to aoc in the democrats .

But she go try to find her not promoting and and counter signaling you . You'd be hard , you'd be hard pressed it . What we need to be able to do in this actually applies way more beyond like some micro disagreements between a few people within our , our reformed little world .

This also means like , if you can't form coalition with SBC Baptists , how , what are you ?

So there were some Twitter kerfuffles of various stripes that showed up immediately following the conference and , uh , you know it's all in tribe stuff , but immediately what I did is I just started texting people and I said , hey , can we just schedule a call ?

And one of the things that that I've learned from like a Charles Haywood and then the netter or knee odor if you've got no enemies on the right was just some of these conversations need to happen in green rooms and not for all the public to see . So a lot of times you can .

You know we've had lots of those conversations and nine times out of 10 , what I found out was that we could iron out the difference and go , okay , yeah , I don't love your direction on that , but I'm not going to countersignal you publicly because that's actually weakening the tribe . So I think just it's the same thing .

I would tell , like the single moms on Twitter who air every grievance and every prayer request on Twitter , and you're like this is not the place for that . Stop it , stop it , get some help .

Yeah , and to Joe's point , what you really actually need , what that situation tells me you need people in your own real life that you can look face to face and you can say things to you like hey , I'll pray for you on that thing . Stop putting that on Twitter . This isn't a so yes , so true Kings . Final thoughts on the conference .

One we didn't talk too much about yet was JJ , I thought , his insight on Acts 29 , why it failed . Sometimes doing the postmortem is really helpful on movements to young wrestlers and reformed .

Uh , dan , we've learned a lot , I think , just from having kind of grown up in adjacent or in that community to some extent uh , taking the lessons , taking the colors , taking the , the failure points and saying , okay , we need to make sure that , whatever we're a part of now , that we don't replicate the mistakes . Um , so yeah , just talk to chase's talk .

And then , um , so yeah , just talk to Chase's talk . And then key , I guess key errors that you see the potential for replication in our movement , our own moment .

Yeah , and especially as we've done this more and more on the King's hall , where it's not just the reformed world , this snippet in time , but actually where we have covered history all the way back to the fourth century , you know well , and earlier , because we've done church history as well . So we've gone back even like BC . You know time period .

All that to say , like this has been a muscle that we've been exercising now for quite a while , and so you know what Chase Davis did with the postmortem on . It's funny , x-29 is not dead yet technically .

Also , it's it's important to look at what were the things that they were doing that was working . I think both of those are important . As far as speaking directly to Chase Davis's talk , unfortunately I had my boys there and one of them required many disciplines , so I'm going to have to listen to it again .

That's really intriguing to me that they wanted to go left so bad and they wanted to do CRT and they wanted to do egalitarianism and they started dying immediately . So I always just go back .

You read the history of liberal Protestantismism in the 20th century and how could keller , who's writing this you know dying manifesto and he was doing a deep dive on the mainline churches how could you not see that the thing that killed it was liberalism ?

You start to get a little bit of a platform and then you start changing the message because bigger platforms are like hey , we would platform you . If , like , imagine the day Brian , if , like I don't know , let's say Tucker says like hey , we want Ogden on the show but hey says like hey , we want Ogden on the show .

Um , maybe , maybe that was the thing back when you had legacy publishing at its dominant peak and legacy media at its dominant peak .

But his platform is so big that , like advertisers , it's hard to find advertisers that can afford it , because every one of his episodes is like as big as the super bowl . Right , um , right now we have a democratization of the microphone through technology , in emerging technologies like social media , which is still an emerging technology .

It's so new , um , and it's just going to continue to evolve at an increasingly fast pace .

What you , what you need to do , is tell the truth , tell it , pursue excellence in your craft and be , try to aim to love your neighbor by being helpful in the domain and vocation he's put you in , if it's speaking , and if it's pastoring , or if it's scholarly work , or if it's political commentary , whatever it is .

Don't bend to try and get the big platform to platform you . Yeah , you get on Tucker , that'd be great . You might get a couple , you know , a couple of million people . See you for a few minutes and then think about the last person you didn't know of , that you saw on a clip on Tucker or something like that .

That didn't you didn't already know who they were ? Um , it didn't like all of a sudden you weren't obsessed with that person and believing everything they said .

You have to build real consensus , real platform , real , real platform , real people who are listening to you , not because of some big microphone that someone put in front of your face , but because you're telling the truth . Well , like that's the thing to do .

So I not only would we not do it on principle , even if that did work I just don't think that that is the way to succeed anyway .

We've had all sorts of things right , uh , and so to give up those four things you know that I'm not supposed to talk about to get on a big platform like , oh , people know my character , this is who I was , and that's the key . Oops , that's who I was , and so to when you start capitulating and you start giving up on your principles .

You're no longer a principled man and you're not worth listening to anymore . It's what joe joe warned about steering wheel . You're no longer a principled man and you're not worth listening to anymore .

So it's really important that you have your principles and it doesn't mean that to make a distinction , it doesn't mean you have to uh , you should turn down every opportunity to speak with somebody who disagrees with you . No , no , go in .

Like I took a speaking engagement at a Manosphere conference where 99% of the content I thought was super gay , like pick up artistry and you know that whole stuff . It was like that was super gay . But I went and did it because they said you can say whatever you want , we won't censor you at all .

I was like I can tell all of your people to repent and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ , get married , have children and be in and raise Christian families . And they're like , yeah , you can . You can say that , okay , cause that's what I'm going to say . That's basically only what I'm going to say .

That's that's how masculine agon discourse works , is that you just have to defend your position and may the truth out like that's the . That's the goal and it has to always be the goal . We can never start resting on our laurels because we all have some mixture of error , every one of us , all the way down , like until glory .

We're all going to have some mixture of error and the iron can still be sharpened . The iron can still be sharpened , so we need to have again to the . That's why I thought the panel was so helpful .

I thought talking to some of these guys behind the scenes like face to face , this is , this is where iron is sharpened , and also it's why you need to have a local tribe . It's why you can't just be an Internet Christian . You have to have a local tribe .

If you need to move , to get that , if you need to make big decisions , you got to have a local tribe .

Yeah , and you are in danger , and so tribe is very important .

We've got a lot of great content that I've been working on with my son , benjamin , for the Kings Hall main episodes . We have at least two episodes that are written on maybe one of the most important figures in Christendom . Have you guys ever heard of a guy on maybe one of the most important figures in Christendom ?

Have you guys ever heard of a guy named Charles Magnus Charlemagne ? Charla the man , let's flip and go . Let's go , it's going to be great . Also in there , a personal favorite Some shout outs to Joel will definitely be coming because of what he said at the conference about me and Vlad . Wow , here we go . The impaler is coming .

Enemies are everywhere , but you can smile as you joyfully fight the good fight , because the Lord is for you . And so go out and build with courage and do not sin . Amen . Oh , I'm supposed to say quink it . We see , wink it . No , not that .