The Alfred Option: Fortress Building in the Negative World with Timon Cline and Cliff Humphrey

, to build fortresses that would be a bridle and bit for those that might plan to act against them , and to have a secure refuge from sudden attack .

Those two gentlemen were kind enough to join me for a conversation about this article , brian , now to your story , though . This was I . We were having pizza . I was a little blown away .

We were standing around and we were kind of discussing a few of the themes of the article that we're going to be talking about and in some of these topics , and one of the students without any preamble of from us , without any hints , did not know we were talking about had not been in the basement . Ok , he goes .

It sounds like you're talking about the themes from Machiavelli's the Prince , and it was exactly what they actually that's what they're talking about in the article and I was like , wow , classical Christian education dub like an eighth grader . Eighth grader , yeah , eighth grader who in his spare time likes to um take care of his cattle .

He's like very farming inclined . Yeah , not like a , not a , tweed by disposition , not a tweet no , it was . It was so cool . I've never been more proud of the students .

Why is this an important thing ? For the purpose of resourcement ?

That is explicit through both old and new covenants , in the scriptures and uses a lot of original sources , and it's very thoroughly researched , many footnotes for people that like that sort of thing , and I think it'll be a excellent resource for people to really help illuminate what is meant when we say that all of us human existence should be patriarchal .

What does it mean , what does it not mean ? And so I think it's going to be very , very helpful , very formational in many people's lives , really influential book .

We need to build fortresses , but with a martial spirit , not fortresses that people shrink back , not fortresses . Um , where we're it's less of the rod drear like let's go live in a monastery and more like let's have a place where we are stable to attack from , but in strategic ways .

But what I want to ask you is to me , this fortress building goes hand in hand with resourcement . Yeah , because , just like the old monasteries , you've got to be bringing back literature . You got to be bringing back old thinkers and old thought . You got to preserve that through the chaos of trash world . Yes , that's right .

So just talk to me about like , why do you think this project of resourcement is so important and maybe also tied to like you've been teaching on the Westminster Confession in Zach Harris's book ? We are not trying to reinvent the wheel here , absolutely not .

You kind of have the tweeds and the pugilists in the reform world where the tweeds are like let's go get classically educated and learn Latin and go translate the old works into English again and let's recover the theology of our reformed fathers and their theological vision .

And Stephen Wolf pointed out that a lot of that resourcement has been quite comfortable with recovering the theology of the reformers , the theology of the reformers , but it is absolutely wildly uncomfortable with re with recovering the practice of our reformed forefathers .

So we love to recover their Westminsterian covenant theology but we get pretty uncomfortable when when Stephen Wolfe and his book goes back and says what about their political theology ? Hey , we don't talk about . What about their ? What about their view of the state ? What about patriarchy ? What Zachary does is he goes .

He goes back and says what did they think about male rule ? What did they think about the role of men and women in the house and in the civil sphere and in the church ?

And what he shows is that what some of us have been saying for for quite a while now , is that we're often criticized as basically being this novel sort of movement that is hyper patriarchal and founded upon the Gothards .

And those movements are neo because not only are they historically new , but they're founded upon newer modes of thought , modernistic modes of thought .

And what Pastor Garris is doing is he's actually , instead of starting with modern assumptions , modern philosophical and theological frameworks and building a doctrine of sexuality , he's actually going back and saying what did our forefathers , what did the reformers themselves reason concerning sexuality ?

And he goes from their theological foundation , which is 500 years old plus , because it's also a method that is founded far beyond the Reformation as well . But he goes back to the source and he demonstrates that the things that we've all been saying in this sort of reformed , patriarchal world aren't new .

They're exactly the type of things that our forefathers have been saying . And actually what we're doing is we're saying we don't want anything in that from the 1980s and the 1990s and the 2000s , we want to go back to the 1500s , the 1600s , the 1700s and ask the question of where did we depart from this mode of thinking ?

And then , yeah , not all resourcement is going to lead to us uncritically accepting the reasoning and theology of everything that happened in the past ? Of course not , but let's lay out the fruit and let's say what fruit has . Has modern sexual theology born in the world ? Mostly good ? Mostly good Versus ? What about this older vision ?

Yeah , which is , I would say , not just a reformation vision , but it's a vision because it's reformational , it's rooted in natural law and in scriptural law , and so it's deeply harmonious between nature and scripture , the nature of man as he was created and what God says in his word .

And what you'll find is that it's a , it's very much a position that you can not just hold , but you can live in quite fruitfully , and so I'm I'm very excited .

I think that people are going to love this book , hate this book , you know it's going to run the spectrum , but they're going to have to reckon with it , and and it's also what I love about it is that it's accessible . It's not 500 pages of dense scholarly . You can't penetrate it with , you know , without a you know million candle watt bulb . It's like .

This is clear . It's under 200 pages . It's full of primary sources . People are going to have to reckon with it . And to your original question , though , and the topic of this episode with time and in his fortress article .

I think that one of the main defense defensive mechanisms for making sure that the right people are inside the fortress is going to be recovering doctrinal systems and practice like this , because you can't build a fortress with the enemies inside and hope to defend it well , and that's that's actually one of the really interesting things we'll get into in the episode

that we talked about .

It's like , well , I actually don't want that person in the camp , I want them flushed . Yeah , or , if you know , even think about just in Ogden . Um , we actually don't soft pedal our sexual theology .

We don't like that , of course , but it's because it's completely impossible to live peacefully with trash world and to build the positive thing that we want to build , which is the new humanity in the image of Christ , with a right view of human sexuality , a right view of the polis , a right view of every aspect of human life .

And when you try to hide in lowest common denominator those things for the sake of a big tent , what you end up with is not a fortress , you just end up with a big battlefield . Where you end up with is not a fortress , you just end up with a big battlefield where you'll see the sbc .

It's just a constant battle with the people that are supposedly inside of your tent .

in did not start that way , it was very much so more in your mainline Big Eva stream , and so as we were changing some of these theological positions , especially applicational , that's really the key , because when you're talking about people adopting Westminster standards and things like that , if you don't get the application right , what you get is PCUSA .

So you have a high liturgy with a lot of the elements that we practice on , a liturgy on Sunday mornings being led by some lesbian pink haired . You know , lady pastor , you know , with a rainbow stole screening , if you will .

We had a period of reformation in the church to where we knew , strategically , that we were going to have to , you know , hold the line at some point . We were going to implement certain changes to the church , to the culture , and we knew there was going to be cost . Why do we know that ? Because there was actually a battlefield within the church .

There was a mixture of people that were in and people that were definitely not in , you know , as far as the culture and the vision and and a positive vision for the future and all those things . And so one thing that that Brian would joke about in the past is that , oh , there's too many people in the pews .

I must've gotten soft , not really , You're just , you know , preaching expositionally and it comes up when it comes up , and so you'd say it like it's time for a topical sermon on this thing , and you'd go hard and then clean out , like you know 10% of the people yeah , or 20% of the people in that case to now we have a different problem .

So in our new membership class , uh , we've given the same advice , uh , that brian takes on a sunday morning where we look out on the pews and we're like man , it's getting kind of full .

We need to go hard to see if we can preach anybody out and what ends up happening is that more people come in because we've actually have people that are like-minded , of the same culture we're actually .

I mean , this article is so good because it actually points out a lot of things that are reality that we've experienced , but we haven't really formulated you know into .

means we're going to have to find a different career . The number of conversations Brian and I had about that he's like well , I could go , you know , serve coffee again . You know we can feed our families , but I would rather do that than live in some , like you know , milk toast sort of church .

So that's what you're talking about . Focus has to be on upgrading and cultivating the tribe right . So that's what you're talking about . The way that you preach , the way that you do membership classes um , it really is focusing on that .

And I think once you get to like critical mass and you have momentum , then you start seeing , like five years later , that that culture has a it's like centrifugal force . It just gets more and more powerful .

But the funny thing about principles is that you don't live consistently with your principles . If you don't actually practice them , you will lose those principles . They're not actually your principles . They're not your principles . I think Doug famously says that your theology comes out your fingertips . So what does that say about the ? About the rainbows , you know ?

But that's not the case , because what's happening simultaneously when you're hiding those principles , is that you're attracting people with what you're currently using for your messaging and for the culture .

Who's inside of this wall and who's outside of this wall is actually one of the most important things you can figure out about a fortress , believe it or not you know like yeah is this thing ? are we going to make this thing broad and narrow ? How's it going to work ?

And you know , I really I thought that was a great picture in the article of , like Dan said , it puts some words to some things that we've experienced ourselves and I was like , yeah , that's exactly it .

places like Ogden , utah , moscow , and then building fortress out from there . One of the things I think is helpful they define fortresses this way Fortresses are pockets of insurgency , strongholds located in strategic places sufficiently resilient to external attack and vigilant against infiltration .

They offer not just a negative world survival strategy but a springboard to a new world hereafter and they provide a new , positive world . One of the things he said that I especially like , because it was about us , is we . We are not looking for evangelical Chaz or Christian Occupy Wall Street or a new Munster , germany circa 1535 , for that matter .

We must build for a new future , not a larp hashtag return , but a real and new american christendom . Amen to that . And then he says this new christendom press seems to share some of this vision in their upcoming building christian boroughs conference . If you're a reader that needs an option quote , unquote . Go ahead and call this the alfred option .

It's athelny . Yeah , tell me about that . First of all , alfred option . Great , yeah , we trademarked em , we came up . Go ahead and call this the Alfred option it's Athelny .

But it's also recognizing that what we're trying to build isn't a retreatist monastery , but it's actually more like Athelny , which was the it means prince isle . It's the , the little swampy island where alfred was driven all the way back with the invading his homeland . He was king over and he ends up being king of this little island , in a swamp pretty much .

But from there he built out and he ultimately reconquered . It's really his robin hood william . Yeah , you know , sure would force william wallace . He didn't just say , well , now the kingdom is athelny , yeah , that's the whole thing and that's as big as it's ever going to be . He recognized reality . He didn't just do business as usual .

But it wasn't for the sake of living there forever , it was for the sake of having a home base from which to reconquer with good defense .

It was hard to get to him there and from that he historically he really did go back and win his lands from enemy occupation and led to you know we're going to get an Alfred much more but led to rebirth of British civilization . Basically , as the saying goes , gold is the money of kings , silver is the money of gentlemen , but debt is the money of slaves .

If you're tired of seeing your wealth sapped by the silent theft of inflation , consider adding gold to your financial plan . Gold and silver have been recognized as sound money and a store of wealth for centuries , and a store of wealth for centuries .

Converting your savings into gold and silver will protect and preserve your wealth so that one day you'll be able to pass down a true inheritance to your children's children .

That's where our friends at Alpine Gold Exchange come in , offering 0% buy-sell spread gold leases with up to 3.5% annual return paid in gold , by the way , and secure vaulting right here in Utah . Half percent annual return paid in gold , by the way , and secure vaulting right here in Utah .

Alpine Gold approaches every transaction with fairness , honesty and respect , reflecting a strong Christian business ethic in all that they do . Head to Ogden Gold today or tap the link in the description to sign up or schedule an appointment to speak with an Alpine Gold advisor today and see what would best serve your family .

And just so you know , if you schedule a call you'll be speaking with Jace , ethan or Stu , three members of Refuge Church right here in Ogden . Head to ogdengold and check it out today .

Well , joe Garrisi , with Backwards Planning Financial , integrates investments , debt insurance , tax strategies and legacy planning in a holistic approach , coaching his clients to act wisely . You can do better than you received . You can affect your family's trajectory and maximize your efforts to set up long-term fruitfulness .

Joe starts with your values and goals , then provides impactful counsel to help you form and implement your financial plan . Click on the link in the description for Backwards Planning Financial and contact Joe today to get started . Red meat is a staple of a healthy , protein-packed diet , but not all meat is created equal .

That's why I buy my meat from Salt and Strings Butchery . Salt and Strings is owned and operated by my friends Quinn and Samantha Bible , and the meat they offer is raised , harvested and processed exclusively in Southern Illinois .

It's cut and packaged by my friends Quinn and Anthony , and not only is it the best meat I've ever had , well , all their meat is sourced from local farms that share our Christian values . Salt and Strings is now offering a beef and hog box that can be shipped directly to your door .

The 15-pound beef box features 100% black Angus beef and includes ribeyes , t-bones , sirloin , choc-roast , fajita meat and ground beef . You can order your beef box today for just $259 . It will send it directly to your door .

The hog box is $239 and features premium Duroc pork , including eight thick pork chops one of my all-time favorites pork steaks , cured and sliced bacon , ground pork , bratwurst and breakfast sausage links . You can place your order today at saltandstringscom or use the link in the show notes , and also be sure to follow Salt and Strings on Instagram .

We'll also include the link in the show notes . Are you a business leader aspiring to build a parallel economy and glorify God with excellence in everything ? Livingstone Studio offers full service design solutions to communicate your values visually , set you apart from the competition and convey the good , true and beautiful .

Leave behind the cookie cutter templates and build with cathedral style aspirations like Livingstones , crafting lasting beauty at every turn . Livingstones can help you stand out with a timeless brand , complete with a world-class logo , custom website , marketing materials , graphics and more .

Learn more at livingstonesstudio or contact Rob Hewitt directly at robatlivingstonesstudio for a free consultation and landing page audit . Livingstone Studio , your reform design partner . Yeah , and I like that picture too , because it's like , yeah , you know , david and his mighty men , same deal , you're on the run , you're in the wilderness , but they're living in caves .

They can , they can be effective for a time in that , but it's looking forward , dan , to really a cultural insurgent , the right moment where they can grow , expand , et cetera . One of the other principles I think that's in play here is Alfred's Burrows , which we vowed we would , you know , be talking more about as we come up to the conference .

But , dan , one of the things that they kind of employ this language of being connected . So they're individual places .

I'm sure they were unique places , geographically distant , but you know , they built roads to get from one to the other , but they were somehow connected and when you connect them all together , you could then defend your country and you could support culture .

Yes , so just talk to me about like okay , we have Moscow , we have a , we have an Ogden , you know , maybe a Batavia . Why is it important that we don't just have , like one central hub , but that we have these different , connected quote unquote boroughs like Ogden . Why is that important ?

While he's in this island in the swamps , one thing that he did that Tymon mentions in his article was that he had if you will , this is a bit of a stretch he essentially had a media or a communications venture where he is communicating with people off the island and he's letting them know there's still a king and there's still a positive vision for the future .

So he's doing that while essentially conquered at that moment , saying all hope is not lost . And I feel like that's where we are right now , that's where Moscow is , that's where a lot of these different places are right now .

Is that we're painting a positive vision for the future , saying things won't always be like they are now , and is that we're painting a positive vision for the future , saying like things won't always be like they are now , and giving that positive vision for the future ?

The reason why it's so important in the alfred's borough model to have the way that he structured these different boroughs is that there were days , march or a day's walk from each other , so that travelers and merchants could spend the night behind fortified walls with garrisons . They had soldiers in these . You were protected .

You were protected , and then they had economic protection as well , so that merchants weren't being robbed . You know , their wares could be sold economically , and so , if you apply that to modern day , why is it important to have these different regional fortresses , if you will ?

Well , it's because we have to insulate ourselves from not relying on the negative world economically for entertainment , for different messaging and teaching , uh , and for resources such as education . You know , and we're already doing that . That's why I think we're building fortresses right now is because we're having to insulate ourselves in some ways .

Not Benedict option , where it's retreatist , but we're having to say what are the resources available ?

It's education is something that we need , and the resources that exist stink , you know , and so we're going to have to develop a lot of our own or recover things that have been lost in the past , and so it's really important to have , first , communication and good relationships with these different places for the sake of economics and all that I just mentioned .

It's also to produce safe harbors for people , because what happens when you're in a place that is hostile towards Christianity and you're a Christian and you're trying to live out these principles ?

Well , you're going to have to move , and that's what people are doing right now is that there's a great relocation happening at the moment , where people are shuffling around and they're basically looking for a fortress ? Yeah , they're going to . We're going to see definitely ebbs and flows of that , depending on what's happening economically and politically and socially .

We're going to see mass movements of people and some of that is actually delayed . So we're seeing a mass movement now which is , I think , remnants from 2021 , 2022 . And so I think that's really important . The other thing is that is very underrated in Christianity , since the Reformation is unity . Unity is absolutely vital . Reformation is unity .

Unity is absolutely vital . If you do not have a united church , a united Christian presence to where people have each other's backs , you do not have the opportunity to build some sort of American Christendom .

Could you imagine an American Christendom where it's essentially it's not just states that have like independence , it's these different fortresses are warring with each other . What do you have ?

You just have schismatism across an entire country and eventually just will degrade into chaos until a different you know , you know some sort of war warrior , warlord type person takes over . So it's really important for unity and for all the other things that I said , and I'm sure there's tons more but yeah , we could do a couple episodes on that .

But it's interesting because his influence was great , christian prince , christian king , but very limited because the countries around him , including the Serbians , were continually selling out them and the Hungarians to the Ottomans .

And so he said that , listen , they employ a strategy against us which is divide and conquer , and so he was continually warning his people not to play into getting baited on that . And I was thinking about it .

This week we have hopefully we'll have him on the show , but watching some of the older videos of Bob from speaker's corner interacting with Muslims in the UK and I was posting this and he had just , I mean , echoing stuff we've said in this podcast . It was great .

And people were like , well , he's a dirty , filthy Roman Catholic and we need to oppose him before we ever worry about the Muslims . And and we need to oppose him before we ever worry about the Muslims . And I was like my guy , this is what we're talking about .

Like you , if we can't get along , and then , and then , okay , don't even include Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox in this , but just say reformed Christians can't even get along . It's like , well , the enemy wants that .

So I think being savvy to who the real enemy is and being able to make those distinctions so that the fighting is aimed properly , yeah , so definitely would encourage people to check that out .

Yeah , that was his thing , because you had Protestantism that was prevalent during this time , towards the end of the end of the crusades , and he said it doesn't matter , they'll be so easy to take out because they can't . They can't get along .

Well , it turns out that was good , because we already would have been sold out of that venue . But we do . We still have a couple hundred seats that are available , available . So , man , the singing is going to be .

Welcome to this episode of the King's Hall podcast . I'm your host , eric Kahn , and joined by two guests . Today we have Cliff Humphrey and Tymon Klein . Gentlemen , thanks for joining me on this episode . Thanks , eric . So , gentlemen , I want to talk about an article that you guys wrote Fortress Building in a Negative World .

So , gentlemen , I want to talk about an article that you guys wrote Fortress Building in a Negative World . Simon , we'll start with you . Just the reason for this article what was going on in your minds and what are you kind of trying to do with an article like this ?

That included some additional material that's not in the book because I think it was already in publication and all that which was the sort of insurgency mindset that he advocated as maybe beginning to get at the sort of approach the engagement approach , the warrior approach , whatever you want to say , those are the two of positive and neutral world .

This might be the new approach , taking the good things from those and adapting to changing circumstances . So we talked about it and I actually think it was Clifford came up with the metaphor for this to describe it is this fortress . That's what we kind of need to build it .

It accommodates the negative world in the sense that it is warfare and we need we've lost a lot , so we need defensive structures , in a sense , ones that are resilient and adapted to the landscape . But it's not retreatist , right . This is not .

It's not a monastery , it's something that's more martial in its spirit and aggressive in that sense , but recognizes that we don't have the capital or the technology or the arms that we used to in positive world , to engage at full scale our enemies , we would say , in kind of open field .

Nor is it a marketplace situation where the currency is kind of respectability and good faith , engagement with each other . And that's what cultural engagement was , the sort of Tim Keller model , and I think it always helps to Aaron sets it up , moral majority , Jerry Falwell , those guys , that's cultural warriors . Tim Keller , it's cultural engagement .

There's good things about both of them , but there's a lot they get wrong , especially if you try to apply either of those models in our current situation . So this was the metaphor we came up with , and kind of set it up that way , of what we need to think of ourselves as is cultural insurgents .

We're in a foreign land , or at least a occupied land in the sense it used to be ours , but it's no longer . We don't control it .

So what we can do is sort of establish outposts and maybe a network of outposts that are again anti-fragile , resilient , adapted to the negative world , but have some kind of connectivity in these outposts and these fortresses , and maybe that's the way forward , ultimately hoping that we can restore , you know , a city of our own .

I mean , those are too big to conquer now , but you can sort of piece these things together and ultimately restore , you know , a new kind of positive world where we could flourish in a different way . But for now , this is the strategy that has to be adopted .

How do you characterize negative world ? And Cliff , I'll ask you that one .

They have markers about them that we see oh , they're a part of that small group that has a very high morality , that's very insular , and they're not really a part of the larger majority .

They don't live the same way that everybody else does , and this is a really hard thing for us to wrestle with , and Aaron does a good job of saying look , christians are going to have to count the cost in a way they never have before , because it basically means giving up on trying to get into the cool club , being a part of the really respectable class that

gets invited to all the all the you know important parties . It just means , like , learn to see yourself like a member of the Amish or Hasidic Jews know that they look at you or they should look at you as kind of a weird person who's not trying to climb the social hierarchy .

And again , for a lot of Christians that's hard because we don't want to give up that position that we've had for a long time , and the other thing we got to just qualify too is say what we try and lay out .

We try and stay high level , because if we lay out principles , we know that it can be applied in different ways , and our country is vast and there's lots of different circumstances that prevail , and so people have to be able to think through using those principles , what does that look like in these situations here ?

So in some places , you still can have a lot of respectability , in high places of power and authority , and where those exist , you should certainly try and pursue those . I think .

Other cases , though , you're really going to have to hunker down if you want to stay faithful and that's thrown at us to try and scare Christians into either becoming less political or less faithful , and if you want to do either one of those , you're allowed to stay , you know , in the public realm , but if you don't , we're going to call you a Christian

nationalist , if you try and stay political and if you try and hold to those traditional beliefs . So that's just the new lay of the land that people have to sort of accept , I think , and we don't have to like it , but I think we do have to accept it .

The way we lay it out of the differences is , you know , culture warriors in the positive world rightly saw themselves in a position of conflict . That's , that's the thing they get right . They know that it's warfare and at the time they at least ostensibly have the means to engage that at cultural scale , at national scale .

Right At the time it seemed at least you could tackle it that way . The thing that cultural engagers you know might get right is they have something of an insurgency mindset and they're going into hostile territory and they're going to try to create in a certain way outposts there , you know , in New York City or whatever , and grow from there .

But the problem with the engagers is again their participation in the pre-existing status hierarchies and their participation in the market currency that's predominant , which is , or both of which are designed for their failure . And I think you see this manifest in Tim Keller's own legacy when he's up for that Princeton Award and he gets canceled right .

That's kind of a crescendo moment in the sense that actually they don't see you this way , they don't see you as legitimate participants . You're maybe tolerated , but that's it . The culture warriors failed when it's partially inherent in their strategy , but it's because it's too big and too small and what they want to change . But it's also just in providence .

The landscape has changed and that's no longer a viable option . So we see both of them as being having something that's correct , but also a big part of it is flawed , demonstrated and not working . You know , things have gotten worse .

So we want to say the culture warriors have the right martial spirit and the cultural engagers have the right idea , in the sense that you do need some mode of infiltration .

We just think that on both fronts you need to choose a better battleground at present , ones that we cite Moscow , idaho for in a certain way , even though they're more developed than what we're advocating for at this point .

Same thing with Hillsdale , where it's sort of a reasonable scale and a reasonable place that you're shooting for , strategically chosen , and we break it down further because , again , we categorize those as towns , not fortresses .

They've developed further , but you need to choose your location strategically , choose your venue and your industry that you're tackling strategically , where you can win and make some inroads and capture some own space another idea we bring up . But you do need to remember that you're in a war and this is not a marketplace .

So that's kind of how we thread the needle through those two modes of engagement that have failed to this new one of adjusting for current context .

So normally , when they would think about planting a church or starting a business , they're going to be thinking about a lot of things how to maximize profit , on one hand , and how to , you know , reach the gospel to some population that hasn't been reached before , or something like that .

What we're trying to say is you have to think of both of those things , or a school or any kind of institution or organization . You need to incorporate the principles that we lay out in this article to make whatever institution you have more resilient . So , if you want to plant a church , you're a pastor and you feel called to plant a church .

If you look at how Jim Wilson , doug Wilson's father , chose Moscow , idaho , aaron goes into great detail and he has a lot of admiration for the strategy that went into picking that location , for two reasons , he says .

One , it was achievable , it was a place that he could actually build an institution and have influence in , and secondly , it was an important location , and so it may be that you're just thinking ahead of time . Well , I'm just going to build my business here If you don't take into account things like that .

It may be the case that you're going to encounter pressures and temptations that are going to be too strong for you . Maybe you're not going to be able to keep your business unless you bend the woke knee in some ways . Or there's going to be a kind of pressure on your church .

If you're renting space from someone , maybe the landlord's going to say I'm not going to allow you to preach on these topics , or something like that . If you go in and you sign a contract , you've made yourself vulnerable . Right , woundable is what that means .

So what we're trying to do is help people think no matter what kind of institution you want to plant , you need to upgrade to a fortress by making yourself resilient in these specific ways , namely shifting loyalties and owning space .

And one of the things you guys talk about is that you're actually not starting with a city right , because when you look at what we have in terms of you mentioned strength of arms , population , economy , technology , you maybe one day we'll get to the city , but you've actually got to start with sort of this vulnerable fledgling , as you guys call it .

I'm curious , tymon , when you talk about a defensive construction of a fortress , are you saying it should be defensive forever , it should remain small , roll up the gates the homos are coming or is this strategic in a different way ?

You know , the imagery is monastic and so that's kind of brought upon yourself when you use that Ours is . You know , this is provisional in order to in some sense recover our footing , and I wrote a piece , I think a couple of years ago , that was dealing with some of this , of you need to get yourself some distance so that you can build something .

You need to construct yourself in a way that's defensive to hostile forces which are coming , but also , you know , in a sense , build up your army , whatever you want to say . Our executive director at AMREF and our friend Josh Abitoy added that he wanted to add a piece to this . That was you have raiding parties too . That could happen .

So every now and then you might branch out and go steal some goods and bring them back to your fortress and feast upon them . But in general , this is again a military analogy , because things are coming for you , but you're not going to stay holed up there forever .

The goal is to get to a position where you could reach out and go conquer more territory and hopefully , when you have a sufficient network , as we say it , and we can get into like Clifford already has a bit the various ways what constitutes a fortress in various environments , a bit the various ways what constitutes a fortress in various environments , but a sort

of network that has some transference of currency and status and these sorts of things , so it's interconnected . You could , you know , at some point either launch an attack or upgrade then to a city .

You may have the sufficient means and technology , as we put it metaphorically , and everything else to build that , but right now you don't have the ability to conquer the cities and you also don't have the ability to build them . You have to wait and so you have to develop yourselves into being truly excellent and truly virtuous .

On the one hand , that's what we're pursuing , but on the other hand , to be strategic and sensible in the sense that you know Clifford was talking about , there's been sort of a , there's a new layer of analysis added to the guy who wants to start a business or a church . They didn't previously have to consider .

We can consider that unfortunate , but it is the case and so , but yes , to answer your question , this is not purely and perpetually defensive , it is with further aspirations . Otherwise we would consider it defeatist and we're intentionally not trying to be that .

One of the things that's again interesting to me here in Ogden is how you can build a tribe through messaging . We've done it through podcasting largely , but really the force of power seems to come from you know , shared , I guess tribal alliances , ideologies , things like this .

And one of the things I've seen in the past is guys will build tribes this way , but then they start attacking their base and then so you get something like resentment building within your own walls , and then it's . You know the fortress is worthless . But I want to ask you why is that so important ? How do you build that esteem ?

How do you establish that with your people ?

Consider now , whenever you're going to start a school , business , church , anything like that , you've got to be wary that there's going to be people who , if you bring them in , they're going to subtly undermine the project . So you want a very thick layer between us and them .

That's what you have to build , and so , when you're screening everything that you're doing , your messaging , your marketing you want to appeal to the people who are going to like what you're doing , and you're going to signal to the people who don't like what you're doing that they don't want to be a part of you .

The last thing you want is for them to be a part of what you're doing , and so you shouldn't be . This is critical . You shouldn't be afraid of them calling you names that are going to signify that . Well , if you act like that , we're going to push you far away .

Your response is good we want to be far away , we want to be seen as far away from you and you know , we see this on Twitter every day . This dance people trying to signal well , if you do that , I'm going to push you away . And everybody's trying to figure out sort of how far they want to be .

And how do they not , you know , signal the wrong thing to the wrong people ? It's a , it's a game , it's a strategy , and because it's , you're not marketing just to your crowd . Anything that you say , even in your church , as you know , can get blasted out to the entire world that afternoon .

So it's , it's a very , it's a very difficult concept , but a very important one that people have got to figure out . This is the game . Are you going to play it ? You're going to play to win or you're going to play to lose ?

If you reject that in a sense , there's always going to be an extent to which , in terms of being insurgency and somewhat covert at times , you have to be aware of how those things work . And , of course , bucking the system is no excuse for immorality or anything else .

But okay , caveats aside , that's playing the game that , again , is designed for you to fail and so it's inherently self-defeating and so embracing this sort of distance that Cliff is talking about is strategic . And then the screening process to make sure you only get your you know we talk about from Machiavelli .

You know you need , for any society , good arms and good laws , and it has to be yours , it can't be foreign . That's why he says again , mercenaries and these things , because their loyalty is not reliable , especially when the rubber meets the road Right and he really starts to come .

So reliance upon , you know , a foreign currency in that sense , and foreign arms or foreign resources is not good . That's part of what we're trying to get away from and the screening process how it works out from and the screening process how it works out .

I mean Aaron Wren uses Doug Wilson's blogging as an interesting example of this , of it like repels the people that you wouldn't want there anyway and it attracts the people . You would want Another example of this just to branch out into different sort of categories . And again , you know Moscow is more like a town .

It's not a city literally or figuratively , but they have many things going at once . They're not just a fortress , they have several fortresses going , so in just one fortress would be .

I was talking to a headmaster this week at a Christian classical school in rural Tennessee and he was explaining how a lot of Christian schools have a sort of evangelical requirement , which is anyone can come here as long as you agree that we can teach X , Y , z thing , and everyone's like , great , you could be a Muslim , you could be anything .

We just wouldn't be allowed to teach . Inevitably that starts to break down to relatively short order and I've known lots of people involved in classical Christian schools that have that model where it breaks down really fast for various reasons .

The model that this guy had adopted was what he called a covenant model , which is not only do your parents have to be Christians , they have to sort of agree up front and sign on to that they're going to maintain certain conditions in their own home . They're going to maintain , you know , this sort of allegiance to the school .

So it's much more robust , is the point , and that's a screening process . That's exactly what that is , and it ensures the longevity of your fortress , it ensures aligned arms that are not mercenary , and it gives you some integrity as well .

And that's kind of what we're talking about is those processes that seem cumbersome and maybe a bit annoying , and even unloving or unwelcoming , or something like this , I think , is how they'd be explained away before the current situation calls for them .

Otherwise , all of your institutions will be decimated in very short order , because the rest of the world is designed . The way it works is designed for that right now .

And for a lot of people , their school might be dependent on dollars , and that's the principle of owned space , right . If you are dependent on other people that are not part of what you're doing , you're setting yourself up in a way that's going to be tough .

So when you , if you , when you establish yourself , try and think about it in terms of being as independent as possible on people who hate you or who do not even care for what you're doing . So that's a great , great way of describing it .

Max D builds innovative , hardworking trailers for the builders , fixers and growers of the world . You can follow their stories by checking out Max D Trailers on Instagram or by visiting the link in the show notes . Learn more about Max D Trailers by visiting maxdtrailerscom , where you can check out the article 10 ways to make money with your trailer .

Try them out and you'll savor exceptional coffee , while knowing that your investment supports a company committed to following God's teachings and upholding truth and righteousness , ensuring your hard earned money contributes to the growth of God's kingdom . Stop giving your hard earned dollars to pagans who support evil .

We have a fantastic offer to our listeners your first bag of coffee is free . All you have to do is cover shipping . Head over to squirrelyjoescom to claim your free bag of coffee .

This innovative system is designed to guarantee uninterrupted compound interest and tax-free growth , without exposure to typical stock market risks , To join this growing community that is already building wealth into future generations and Thank you , familybankingcom .

To set up an appointment and to receive a free copy of Chuck's new book Protect your Money Now how to Build Multigenerational Wealth Outside of Wall Street and Avoid the Coming Banking Meltdown . Go to the link in the show notes for more information .

We understand that running a business is a journey with twists and turns , but fear not . Keep Wise is here to be your trusted counsel on the path to financial success as you work to take dominion and build Christendom through your labors .

Just as the scriptures encourage seeking counsel from many , we've assembled a team of skilled advisors who will be your partners in prosperity . We'll meticulously manage your finances , ensuring your business books are tax-ready and allow you to make better business decisions . What's more , our team isn't just about numbers , we're about wisdom .

We'll help you make informed decisions that honor your values as Bible believing Christians and steer your business toward growth and prosperity , all while keeping your finances in order . Worried about the cost ? Remember , even Proverbs advises prudent planning . Keepwise offers flexible pricing options that'll keep your financial house in order without breaking the bank .

But wait , there's more . For our fellow new Christendom Press listeners . Keepwise is offering 50% off of bookkeeping services for your first three months . So don't wait , embrace the wisdom of seeking counsel in your business affairs . Three months . So don't wait . Embrace the wisdom of seeking counsel in your business affairs .

Visit our website at keepwisepartners to learn more and to take the next step in surrounding yourself and your business with the wisdom of many counselors . Or reach out to Derek directly at Derek at keepwisepartners . Keep wise your partners in small business finance and accounting Wise your partners in small business , finance and accounting .

So it was really like you want to kind of aim at middle , you know the middle , you want to kind of keep all your really edgy stuff out . And what we did post 2020 , I came to Ogden . We did the opposite . We said no , we're going to put all of our principles out there . Brian had a teaching series .

It was like seven ways to get canceled and it was basically like look , here's all the things that we believe that people would hate us for . We put that out there . But then what happened was the church . The church grew .

It grew with the kind of people you actually want , and so now it's funny because we'll have these , you know , twitter wars on modesty or whatever it is , and people will freak out and they think that the people in our church are going to leave or something like that .

But if you ask the average woman , for example , in the church or like , I thought that was really funny , go get them . It makes you more anti-fragile because you led with those things . So I think it's part of it is you've got to get away from especially the church . Getting away from this .

We're going to build a really big tent audience , very broad messaging , and then eventually we'll get to the point where we , you know , we speak some hard truths . It doesn't really work that way and , as you guys are saying that , that's the very thing that makes you , uh , makes you cancelable .

That also occurred in the cultural engagement strategy , and what it does is it ends up you're not so much converting them , at least at a certain scale . If you get this many recruits and they're essentially mercenary or barely aligned , they end up converting you .

All of a sudden , your army is all these people that aren't really from where you are or really aligned and have no skin in the game , and so you end up either catering to their whims , where the army is basically dictating the policy of the generals , or you've actually just changed and now you think the way that they do , because you have enough foreigners in

this sense in your midst . And so what we're saying is there's still a recruitment strategy , but the recruitment strategy that , like what you're describing , is going to attract the right people and that is the source of strength , and you really do not wring your hands or worry about the people . You're not winning , you know .

Check your own conscience and do the Lord's will , but don't worry about throw out all those books from seminary that tell you how to build these things and don't worry about it Like all these people you're losing supposedly . You know .

Ditch Rick Warren , all this stuff , because that's just going to perpetuate or reproduce the preconditions for the situation you're in now .

So that , yes , I think that's very important to recognize , but that is really hard , especially for business leaders and schools and churches I mean three of our main institutions we're including in our analysis for all of them , this is very hard , for real reasons . It's not easy , but it's important to adopt this , this mindset , in terms of your recruitment .

So when you're , when you make a seeker , sensitive church or school , where you don't want to offend anyone right and you're bringing in as many people as possible , you may get a lot of people who prefer what you've got on offer today right , but two things somebody down the road could easily come up with something that's slightly more preferable to you and they're

gone . And secondly , there's no loyalty there , there's no conviction , there's no . I'm here because I have a covenant model that says sorry , I know you got some money and you'd like to be a part of this community , but if you can't sign this thing , you can't be a part of it . We're not going to take your money .

Likewise , here you might just say , hey , I know that if I said this thing , then your tithe dollars would probably come here and we'd love that . But I'm going to say these things anyway , and if they're going to offend you and you leave , you're going to have to do that . I'm not going to change what I'm going to say because it's the word of God .

So all of that again leads into this the fortress mentality which I think is what we're trying to help describe .

For a long time , I think , americans in particular have seen both what we call the governing regime meaning your apparatus , the government itself , all these things as being synonymous with and with some justification they could do this synonymous with the nation itself , which is the American people right that the government and the regime and all these things are

ostensibly formed for , and all that's being pointed out here is that that is no longer , at least everywhere and alike , the case . And so one example Aaron brings up is the military . We have in our country a very , a great culture , in a sense , surrounding the military .

We love it , we respect through our public demonstrations and even personal , you know , patriotic piety , we could say people who've been in the military , and that's a virtuous thing to think , a virtuous impulse .

The problem is the military itself , at least at the high level , kind of Pentagon policy , and then the culture of the military , and especially our academies , are demonstrably antagonistic to the American people and the American way of life . And there's many markers for this . You could choose .

One would be the types of decision making and foreign policy that are evident , and you're you know , the most of the people who are dying in foreign wars are from middle America and Appalachia , and they're white young men .

But the entire culture of the military , publicly speaking , is to promote the latest thing , the rainbow flag brigade , and you can see this through recruitment strategies and propaganda and everything else .

And so the point is , these things are not congruent , these are not aligned , and so what you need to do is , as great as it would be to return 50 years ago to how we can think about the military , it's not the case . So you should stop where possible and where unnecessary . You should not be giving your time , blood and treasure to the military .

It is part of the regime apparatus and it is no longer in service in the senses we're describing to the American people . You should shift all of those resources to investment in things that are conducive to the American way of life .

That's necessarily , we think , going to take on a more localist expression , maybe a state level expression , depending on where you live , but that's difficult for people , and this and it applies elsewhere this is one example , but you need to shift your loyalties to the American people and away from you know the governing order , because they're no longer sufficiently

synonymous .

people . So shifting the loyalty , even in that way as well , is all part of what negative world we think is going to come to mean for Christians .

You know we have to if you're going to break free of the preexisting status hierarchy where you're enslaved to this for your career , your livelihood and for your reputation , you've got to establish alternative sort of pipelines .

So this is something that involves education and business in churches in a real way , which is , you know , most Christians , I think , or a lot of them , are now moving past the sort of tired public school arguments and are willing to flee them and put their kids in better schools , right , those the success of those is going to be in large part dependent on the

extent to which those graduates can go to colleges right . But if you go to , the aspiration for Christians no longer needs to be getting into Harvard because they hate you and it's bad . You need to go to Hillsdale or New St Andrews or something , right , that's where you need to go . But then that is only secure as a viable option .

And this is just you know being reasonable about what people need If you have a promise of employment , the way that Harvard graduates do , and networks , and you know alumni and otherwise .

And so then that requires , in this sort of pipeline , for businesses to be aligned also , where they give preferential treatment to those who are coming through an alternative pipeline , the way that Goldman Sachs and Bain and Cat Company do today to Harvard graduates .

Right , we have to do this , otherwise our people are not secure and the demand that they take these alternatives is not realistic for them . I mean , you can't do that to people really .

So it requires this sort of , you know , this network of fortresses we're saying , to cooperate so that people , so that we can actually begin to establish our own thing , so you can reject the regime in this sense and also build something new that can grow . So I think that's essential for cooperation in this sense and also build something new that can grow .

So I think that's essential for cooperation in that sense .

But I believe in democracy and the propositional nation and all sorts of problems arise for a lot of Americans . So if you were going to kind of break down for me , like what is the problem with a propositional nation ? What does it produce as opposed to , I think , the kind of nation that you would espouse , walk me through that .

Nation , strictly speaking , refers to a kind of theory of looking at the United States , one that usually comes out of a perspective of Lincoln , who , in the Gettysburg Address , says we're going to establish a new birth of freedom here , and we're , you know , we're going to align the whole American , which used to be , you know , originally 13 colonies and 13 separate

states , into one giant , huge nation , and the thing we're all going to have in common is this proposition , this idea , and as long as you accept that idea , then you're an American .

The principle there , though , is that , similar to an idea , you sort of spiritualized the nation , you've spiritualized the thing that you're loyal to , and you've lost touch with the on the ground , the folkways , the physical space , the relationships that are there .

I think there's so much pressure that we all experience now to shift our loyalties and see ourselves as sort of atoms in this giant thing , and we're all separate , so that I can easily just separate from the church and the family and school that I grew up in , and I can move over here and be a part of that , and I'm not going to say there's nothing true

to that at one level , but I think , for the way that we have to try and live in a resilient kind of way in the negative world . We're going to have to see ourselves as part of an organic kind of thing rather than this spiritualized thing . So we have to .

Our loyalties , like we were saying before , to our churches , to our schools , to our businesses , have got to run deep . So this is something we were saying before , like if I'm needing a certain service , I need a contractor to help me build something .

I'm going to go and look for people in my church before I go looking in the wider marketplace , because , see , the proposition nation would be a sort of similar to the proposition marketplace , where everybody's sort of equal in this space . That's spiritualized . And so instead of that , I'm going to think of myself . No , no , I'm a part of an organic body .

I'm not in the Southern Baptist Convention anymore , although I grew up in it , but you hear a lot of the rhetoric coming out of that , as you know , the sort of alliance to the mission and as long as we're all agreed on the mission , well , we might debate a little bit over the mission because that's not really clear either , but that's sufficient .

You give some monies like tax , and then the mission , which is very amorphous and and that's coming to the school example I described before , the predominant model being as long as he was sent to these . You know we're allowed to kind of do this thing .

It's fine , and that just sidelines most of what human life is and it's as Cliff is getting at , it's disembodied . You know there's no there there and it's totally decontextualized and that's very difficult , it's disorienting to people . It's not actually how we work .

So in some sense our model of what we're saying for institutions in the negative world is forcing us to be more human in the way that we think about our social relations and our projects together and to make it thicker in that way and to not run from the sort of natural impulses that are inherent there .

I mean what Cliff is deciding when you need a service and you're going to give preferential treatment to your church member because he's part of your group . You know this sort of nepotism . In a sense , it's very natural . In fact , it's what the left does constantly .

They're extremely loyal to their own people and they give preferential treatment to the people that have the right credentials according to their status hierarchy . And this sort of idea of meritocracy was , you know , that was supposed to allegedly get clean up all of that right Because it's unfair .

All it's been is a cover for the perpetuation of their you know their dominance in a sense , and they cheat on it all the time . And we see the you know the Harvard cases about their admissions policy being one example of this .

So all we're saying is you know we have limitations to how we can respond , because we can't you know we're not liars like much of the left is we can't , we do have . All of this is about recovering a particular public morality and culture and place that we've lost .

So we do have limitations , but there is some of that that is just inevitable that we need to embrace in terms of our operations and strategy and , you know , I think , getting away from propositional living in that limited sense . You know , as Cliff said , there's some of it , that's true . I mean , every nation is going to have a creed in a sense .

In terms of it , it idealizes a certain aspiration and existence that you're all supposed to pursue . But that is a product of a particular people at a particular time and as soon as you cut the legs out from under that , it becomes infinitely malleable and subject to interpretation for usually nefarious ends .

So that's something that needs to be resisted in all institutions as we try to build them back up from the rubble .

We don't speak the same languages , we don't have any of the same interests , but we're all one people because we buy four trucks and it's basically the same impulse . One of the things I want to ask you is I recently watched a debate with you and Stephen Wolf and a couple other guys talking about Christian nationalism .

A lot of this seems to be part of the same conversation where I think a lot of people you're basically going to get called a racist if you point to any of those earthy components of a nation . So I'm wondering strategically what has been your , I guess , plan of attack , your strategy on that ?

You just kind of grab the third rail and say , look , I'm going to take a shock here , but we need to defend these principles of what a nation is . I mean even the concept that a nation you mentioned this in the article that a nation would be for its people's interests . I mean today . To a lot of people that's crazy .

So yeah , just thinking through how you go about that , knowing that it's going to be a hot topic .

You're going to have to figure it out , but we at least need to get established the right way of thinking about these concepts that are intricate to a theory , and what the ideal would be and that's what .

So you have something to work towards , and I just can't do that very well when you ignore large components of how that theory has been articulated over the centuries , going back to the ancients and then in our own , you know , protestant forebears , and these are just realities .

I mean basic requirements for life together , for building a way of life , is the ability to , of course , communicate , but then also to foster these preconditions , you know , like John Jay brings up in Federalist II , for what a people is , and it's a shared ancestry and culture and language and religion .

These are like the main components that that's a people , and you can see this in the Old Testament . Of course , now , in both of those examples this does not preclude what we could call adoption or newcomers . That's always going to happen too . But what you have to have is a sufficient process of assimilation , and there's always going to be changes .

You have newcomers . They're going to bring something and it's going to kind of get mixed in and that's totally fine . But you have to have a sufficient degree of assimilation to where they become you Right , like that's the whole point . They're .

They're not there to transform you , they're there to become a part of you , and that's something that's that seems oppressive today to people to say you know , you used to be 19th century , 20th century America , whoever it is Italians you know , coming in , you're expected to become , culturally at least , anglo-protestant . That's just the bottom line .

That's what we are , that's what we do , that's how you make sense , and this is why someone like Aquinas would say it basically takes two or three generations for sufficient assimilation to give people real , fully-fledged citizenship , because now they get it , they're invested and they understand how to think and operate down the border .

Where you have so many newcomers at an untenable rate coming in , you can't possibly deal with this . But then the people that do come , however many you're going to let in , and that's always an art , not a science . It's how much your culture can handle .

You need to aggressively assimilate them , and that's more than like a nighttime English class , right , you need to , and most of this is not even self-confident people .

It doesn't really require much government intervention on this front , right , it's everything else , because that's where the cultural life is demanding , you know , this kind of conformity in order to be a full participant , and this is just a natural feature of a nation . That's what a real nation is .

And so now we're in a situation where all of our language and political concepts that we're supposed to use express something that's not real anymore , which is we have a multiplicity of nations inside one particular geographic area , with no attempt to rectify or unify them , them , and that's supposed to be okay . And it's inevitably destabilizing .

I mean , samuel Huntington wrote about this in like 2004 , of there's going to be a backlash when you have this rapid population change with , again , no assimilation , no real unity and native stock white people , whatever you want to call them , in California are going to be 30% of the population in 2040 , you are going to have some kind of backlash .

This is destabilizing . It's not good , it's really dumb policy and people can find it offensive all they want , but it's just how people work , and so we're kind of seeing some of that already , and it exposes how inept and how much of ideologues are current ruling classes that they don't want to address any of it .

They think it's from another planet . One of the things that interests me about this is you guys say prolonged captivity does that Reliance on foreign arms made domicile and rented space invariably leads to servitude ? And then you go on to say their muscles have atrophied . So how do you go about waking people up to this ? I mean , I think part of it is 2020 .

Part of what we've seen in success is that there's a lot of people like maybe the regime overplayed their hand . People are sort of waking up to this and so now we can talk about magistrates and sphere sovereignty and we can talk about Christian princes and people are a little bit more willing to listen .

But yeah , I want to get your take why that's so important to get Christians to think historically , political theology and a lot of other areas .

It's like look , this is , these are our theologians and this is in our confessions and , like you know , this is what we rely on for all manner of other doctrine and thought . So it's the same source where you know . If you can refute it , go for it . But I haven't seen anyone do that yet .

And the other problem and I think really part of the reaction is owed to this is much of what is being talked about now is almost purely descriptive . So I mentioned Josh Abitoy earlier .

I mean he wrote this piece at First Things based on the tweet about the Protestant Franco , and it was really just a regime cycle analysis , right , anisoclosis , which is standard fare in ancient philosophy , ancient political thought and onward up through the founders , and it's just descriptive .

I mean it's not asking you whether you like it or not , it's saying this is what happens and I think that's really unsettling to people . Some of the elements of what it takes to constitute a nation we were just discussing is unsettling , but they're just descriptive .

This is how it works , and so people can try to and it fits the times to be defiant of reality . But I think the people you're talking about , where there's been movement , are waking up to reality and it's going to press upon you and force you to , you know , reconsider some things . So that's both of those things are happening at once .

There's more exposure to good material and , you know , good resourcement of our tradition , which has answers for many of these things , and the other is just encountering a certain return to , like , real politics , where you're reconsidering fundamental requirements for your way of life together , such as you know what even is the family and what are we going to do with

it . And those two things together , I think , are , you know , as a combination , sort of making people reconsider things . And even if they're not there yet , intellectually they're acting differently , right , which is almost just as important . So I am somewhat optimistic on that front .

But I think the people also also have to accept the world can look very differently than you were expecting it to over the next 10 years or so . Again , this is just descriptive . It's not necessarily good or a happy thing , but it's the way it goes .

So at least trying to understand it properly and then , to the extent to which you have opportunity to rebuild things , do it in a coherent way that you is . It takes account of these reality of political life where we've we've lived under a veneer because of prosperity and other elements , where we were able to ignore a lot of these things happening .

And now they're they're kind of smacking us in the face .

I gotta give you that you got range and everything that you talk about in the article , uh , but I want to ask you about this instance , uh , so this is the athenians establishing a fortress on the , I believe , spartan Island , right Laconia .

However , you say that One of the lessons you guys draw out of this is identifying a population that is critical to your enemy and finding a way to acquire their loyalty . I've heard Aaron Wren talk about grill Americans , and I'm all about talking to girl Americans , cause , you know , I , I , in a lot of ways I am one , I guess .

Uh , but as you think about this strategic move , why is it important ? How do we pull it off ?

The conditions around grill Americans , like when they take away their gas stoves grill Americans don't like that , right . The thing we have to watch out for , though , are the people who are going to try and say no , no , no , no , don't believe your eyes . You know that's not happening . Look over here , believe this thing .

According to that strategy , somebody like Grille Americans is a really important population . Another important population might be moms . Think about Moms for Liberty , or something like that . Right , I mean , especially when we think about schools . They get really outraged when they find out that their children have been exposed to things that really they shouldn't be .

So I'm going to throw out another metaphor , though , for us to consider here on this , and that's that I think what we have to watch out for is people being inoculated against seeing things in reality , being inoculated from the red pill , we'll say and I think about Francis Collins right , whose job was to get into evangelical circles and convince people to take the

vaccine and to align it with theology in a certain way , to try and get them to follow the regime and do exactly get in line and to think that it's part of what it means to be a Christian .

And so what I think we have to do is anticipate that circumstances are going to be pushing guerrilla Americans and really strategic targeted populations toward waking up in this way .

But there are people out there who are going to try and inoculate them so that they don't see those things , and that's really what we've got to watch out for , and so the articles and stuff that we're publishing , the conferences that you guys are hosting , and that kinds of things are really out there to kind of keep people free from those inoculators who would

try and keep them from swallowing the red pills . Another image that came to mind about all this is the image of Nehemiah rebuilding the wall .

A couple of things that come out of that image is that A he does it in kind of partnership with Cyrus , right , so he's got permission from someone that he would otherwise not be connected with or allied with , but given the circumstances , he needs that alliance , and so Christians are going to have to figure out , when we're talking about strategic populations , that

we need to win . It might be people who are aligned with other parties that we normally wouldn't want to ally with , but we have to , given our circumstances , or it's strategically important to .

The second thing that comes to mind is that Nehemiah describes the way that the Israelites were rebuilding the wall with a tool in one hand and a sword in the other , right being ready , while they're building their fortresses , to have to engage if they have to .

And again , this is not a world that Christians like to in our day , like to think that they're in , but this is what we're saying . We really believe that this is where we are . So we're going to have to be more offensive and I mean that in both ways than we normally have had to be in the past .

So when we're talking about strategic populations , I think we have to consider these things as well , knowing that the more persecution comes our way , the more certain Christians are going to start lining up on either side of the line in the sand , and what we've got to be there is to help say what the line is , which is the Word of God .

Are you on this side . Are you on that side ?

You know , this is like the vision I have , but you know it's always been grill Americans , I mean at the , you know , in the American revolution , if you want to use that example . It's a bunch of grill Americans who , like , at their level , these we can say , comparatively moderate taxes are enough to .

This is intolerable , Like I'm not going to deal with this Now . You have an intellectual class . It's like well , it's not really taxation . You know , this is a constitutional crisis and here's all that doesn't matter . What gets people going is is the on the ground thing and a long trail of abuses and usurpations . Right , is is what it's .

It's maybe it's even conspiracies , it's . Maybe the Catholics are coming from Quebec , we're not sure , but if they are , that would be really frustrating .

So you know , you , just , this is how it works , and I love girl Americans and at some point they've had enough , and it's usually on something kind of funny that just ticks them off and then they're off to the races .

So we have to be sensitive to that and not be , you know , snobby towards it , either Either that they're not coming along fast enough or they don't have the right reasoning for all of it or whatever . And you've seen some of this in , like the school curriculum stuff .

You know I have much more robust theories about the purpose of education and what good curriculum looks like . But if that's what gets people going , you know that's , that's totally fine . And then maybe they're open to considering of what you want to emulate and implement . So all these dynamics are things , again , we haven't had to encounter for a long time .

So it takes some catching up to do and we've got to be like you know , john Adams , we've got to study some war and these sorts of things so our children can spend their time doing something else in a positive world .

But we do have to play catch up and we are colonials , we have no experience in this and we're incapable of meeting the red coats in open combat right . We're going to have to take a more guerrilla approach and be nimble and ultimately resilient .

We're going to have to stick it out through the winter and let our toes freeze off some , but show up the next day to fight . So we need to recover this sort of American martial spirit , I think , and I've got a sufficient got a sufficient amount of Scots Irish in me to do it , but we're going to have to be patient too .

They were willing to have the education conversation because they were like , yeah , this is terrible , they want to mutilate kids and do other weird stuff and so now we're willing to listen . So I figure part of it's got to be capitalizing on some of those cultural moments with some of our principles and putting that message forward .

Gentlemen , it's been a wonderful treat to have both of you on here . I know , tymon , you're on social media . Cliff , are you active Twitter guy ?