Tania Kindersley

Speaker 1 (00:00:12):

You're listening to the journey on podcast with Warwick. Schiller Warwick is a horseman trainer, international clinician and author, whose mission is to help people achieve a deeper connection with their horses through his transformational training program.

New Speaker (00:00:34):

Hi everyone. And welcome back to the Journey On Podcast. I'm your host Warwick Schiller. And today we have a very, very special guests. Her name's Tania Kindersley, and she's a writer and horsewoman. She lives on the Northeast coast of Scotland in she's. One of those people that can write in such a way that, you know, she could describe what you had for breakfast, and it would seem like poetry. She writes that way and even more. So she talks that way. So I'm really looking forward to interviewing her because she has a, just a wonderful turn of phrase. I love her accent and I just love the way this lady looks at life. So we'll, let's see if we can get tenure on the phone here. Good morning, Tania. How are you?

Tania (00:01:16):

I'm very, very happy to be speaking to you all the way from Scotland.

Warwick (00:01:20):

Actually. It's probably not morning there. It's probably afternoon there. Isn't it is afternoon. Yeah. Hmm. And how's everything in lovely Scotland this afternoon.

Tania (00:01:27):

I'm looking at my window now and I cannot even tell you how serene it is. We've got the lovely late afternoon sky. It's very still we've. The storms have passed and I've been done in the field with my horses and what I call the place of peace which is where my red mat kind of goes into her most mindful, rooted, still calm place of serenity. So on a literal level, everything in Scotland, couldn't be more beautiful. And it's that kind of slightly weird thing where I'm very conscious that we're living in these incredibly strange times. And I'm, you know, I'm working on dealing with all that. And yet in my immediate world, you know, we're just surrounded by beauty and stillness and peace so that, you know, it's how should I say very good and sometimes very bad. And I'm just, you know, surfing those waves.

Warwick (00:02:32):

Yeah. They, they ask some strange times we're living in. How how are these strange times been affecting you? Like, is it how much different is your life say during coronavirus different from how it is normally?

Tania (00:02:45):

Well, at the beginning it was very different. Cause we really couldn't see anyone. Our lockdown was very strict and, and so it, I felt very dislocated from my community. I'm very dug into my local community here and I couldn't drive down the Valley and I worked with a charity that uses horses to help wounded veterans. And that's a really big part of my life. And they're my, you know, it's a big crew both have horses and humans and it was, and then it was a matter of perception. So you were allowed to go to the shop, you know, because obviously everyone had to get food, but you were very much encouraged not to go often. So instead of popping down to the shelf and having a lovely chat with the ladies there, it became a sort of, quite a frightening thing because it was what if I was carrying the virus and then someone got it from me and gave it to auntie Maude.

Tania (00:03:38):

So all these really lovely, normal parts of one's everyday life that one took for granted suddenly it became something like, like something out of a bit of a, you know, a scary movie and everybody's typhoid Mary and I'd find myself getting quite cross with people if they didn't do proper social distancing. And I'm the kind of person normally, if I see strangers in the street, I kind of grin madly at them. And I suddenly found myself looking at them, thinking, wow, you're wearing your mask. And I thought, my God, that how quickly one's perceptions of other humans can change because there's this huge thing completely beyond our control. That's kind of raging around the world and has, you know, has no face and has no conscience. And it has no end. So I had to work very hard because I don't like seeing other human beings as threats.

Tania (00:04:30):

I normally see them as, you know, lovely, happy members of the human family. And it made you very conscious of all the little ordinary things, you know, that you take for granted. I mean, for a long time, we weren't allowed to drive anywhere. And I suddenly really wants to go and look at the Hills and I couldn't look at the Hills and I minded about that. Anyway, luckily all the horse life goes on as normal and, and obviously they can't read the papers. So they became this Oasis of authenticity and, you know, the truth of the present moment. And also I have to be my best self for them. I mean, that's my, I don't have to, that's what I like to do for them. I don't like to give them all my crap. So they are very good discipline. They're very good emotional discipline.

Tania (00:05:17):

You know, I didn't want to bring a huge amount of Jangles down to the field and upset my red man. So I then started to see the whole thing as a kind of emotional boot camp. And I really got good at processing emotions because I, with the coronavirus, I find if you didn't process a difficult emotion, the minute you had it, it would get out of control. And you'd find yourself shouting at people on Twitter. And I said, I do not want to be that person. I mean, it's funny, isn't it? How you find something good in something not good. So I've, I think I felt like I've had a sort of crash course in emotional processing and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but it's, I think that's been a good thing, both for my human life and for my horse life. It's a very long answer to your question. Isn't it? Sorry about that.

Warwick (00:06:11):

Well, you know what the, I love reading your writing because when I read your writing, I listened to it in your voice, honestly, but you also talk like you're right. You, this flowing eloquent way of talking about stuff. So it's yeah. It's, it's such a pleasure to talk to you. So the horses are helping you a lot with that. Do you want to, let's maybe back up a bit and tell us about your life with horses, where you've always been around horses, haven't you?

Tania (00:06:41):

I grew up with horses cause my dad was a steeple chase jockey and then a race horse trainer. So by the time I came along, he he'd retired from writing and he was training horses. So thoroughbreds were pretty much my, probably my first memory was going out in the door and it was jumped racing in England, takes place mostly in the winter. So, you know, it will be pitch dark and freezing cold. And I just followed data into the yard, like a little puppy. And I remember pottering around and the stables, it was at that lovely moment. You go into the stable and you turn the light on and there's that blinking as they wake up. And they were such gentle giants and I just spend time with them and walk under their tummies and give them the feed. And that was my love of the thoroughbred right there, these extraordinary athletes and you think they're race fit.

Tania (00:07:42):

And yet they were the gentlest creatures I'd ever known. And then there was a lot of pony life and showing, and it was, it was, you know, it was all very competitive. The pony yard was in competition with the racing yard. So if we won more stuff than they did, they'd all get ready crop. It's really interesting to me now because that idea of winning has discomplete Egon, but so it was very competitive, very tough. My dad was very physically brave. There was a lot of premium on doing things that scared you. And a lot of cross-country, you know, all that kind of stuff, real, a huge amount of fun. And then my life completely changed. And there were lots of my poor mum, lots of divorces and not really a home for a long time. So I went away from horses and I became very urban.

Tania (00:08:30):

And the only connection I had with horses was I just watched the racing and have these wonderful memories of that extraordinary childhood. And then my dad died and that was really oceanic. It was a much bigger shock than I thought it would be. I just thought he'd run his race. He was 80 years old. He was ready to go. But it felt like the world had turned upside down and I find it very to deal with. And I suddenly thought about a year after he died. I thought, I know I'll go back to horses and I'll get a thorough grad. And then I will have that precious memory with me. And I'll be able to, I have this plan that I would ride out into the Scottish Hills with carrying my dad with me and that I'd sing the Irish songs that he used to sing to me when I was a little girl sitting on his knee.

Tania (00:09:23):

And I just thought this was the best plan ever. And at the time a friend of mine had a x-ray souls, who'd gone for polo and she was hopeless at polo and she'd been pretty bad at racing. And I happened to be staying with him and I told him all this and he said, well, you know, take that red mare. So I did. And I thought, you know, I haven't had a horse for 30 years, but that's fine. I, I could sit on a horse before I could construct a sentence. It'll come back. And I got her up to Scotland and she took one look at me and she literally shook her head. She started shaking her head so badly. I thought she had a brain tumor I really did. And she didn't want to ride out into the Hill. She didn't, she hated the words.

Tania (00:10:08):

She had no interest in the songs. She didn't want to be part of my sentimental journey. So she started rearing and she had an incredible signature move, which was going downhill backwards at top speed. And she spooked to everything and she wouldn't walk over puddles. And I was in, I can feel it now, as I'm telling you, I was in a place of such shame and such humiliation. I mean talk about expectation management that I'd had this whole dream. And she just said, no. And there was a night and you know, this story, I've told it a million times. It's my favorite story. Really? I was sitting in my room in the shame in the humiliation. I'm literally crying tears of despair. And I Googled how to have a happy horse. And from a series of links, the internet took me to you. And I thought, Oh, okay, this bloat sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

Tania (00:11:10):

Let's I love the fact that you were an Ozzie. Cause I thought that I'm going to get no nonsense from this feller. He'll just, you know, that good old Aussie, no crap. Let's just get stuff done. And that's what we did at the beginning. And suddenly we could get stuff done. She stopped rearing and she stopped reversing that inhale and the journey went on. And then of course you had your epiphany and at the bar at the same time, I think Jane pike kind of galloped into my life. Who's someone I know, you know, you work with and does all the mental side of the horsemanship. So then we started moving towards what I can only call the superwoman.

Tania (00:11:50):

You know, we can't fight the woo. And then I invented, I took all your principles and I took Jane's ideas and I ended up thinking much more important than all the winning stuff and the, you know, the being number one and the silver cups and all the stuff I'd grown up with. Actually what I wanted was I wanted to connect with my horse on a profound level. So we, we spent and do spend huge amounts of time, just standing in our Scottish field, breathing and connecting and feeling each other on an atomic level. And I think of how I made of the ancient remnants of exploded stars. And so as she, and I sort of feel myself tiptoeing up to the very, very edge of the species barrier and just Piering across. And she stands there doing all the things that x-rays horses aren't supposed to do and all the things that red matters aren't supposed to do.

Tania (00:12:51):

And she's carved out of the Scottish air. You know, she's, it's, she's like a sort of extraordinary statue from ancient Greece. And that's I Chris, it that the place at peace. So that was your idea essentially about connection and focus. And, and then with a little bit of Jane's idea of letting energy flows through one, which is an idea I really like, there's a paradox in this stillness cause we're so still when we do this and bear in mind, this is, this is next resource in the middle of, I mean, she's essentially, she's got about 30 acres she can wander off into, and she doesn't have a whole Toronto. Uso there we are completely, still completely connected, but there's this incredible feeling of movement as you're in the stillness because you've opened yourself up. Well, we, I have opened myself up to let the energy flow through. So it's a huge opening and yet it's done in absolute immobility and,usounds quite good. Actually, it doesn't have, when I talk about it like that,

Warwick (00:14:07):

I bet a minute and a half ago you said a line in there that I have to put in the show notes. This is going to be when I put this on social media or whatever I'm going to say, and I'm going to put that quote. And it was the one that leading up to what you said, you peering across the species

Tania (00:14:23):

Barrier.

Warwick (00:14:25):

That was, that was worthy of a New York times bestselling author right there. That was a stuff I was mesmerized. I actually wrote the tongue down so I can refer back to it later on. That was that was a paragraph. Whoa hit me right here in the fields. I tell you that was very, very cool.

Tania (00:14:44):

Oh, that's so lovely. Well, you know, it is the thing I thought at the beginning that I could kind of like a horse and I'm very conscious now that we are separate species, but there is this beautiful thing where you just do walk up to that edge. And I, and I sometimes think of it as a little bit, like I'm just looking across the Canyon into another country and I can see it. I probably can never quite visit it, but I can see it and I can have a sense of it. And if you told me eight years ago, I'd have said something like that. I just said you were crackers, but, but you know who, who knows where the road takes us. And that's where it's brought me,

Warwick (00:15:35):

You know, I mean, in a guy, you said what is said, then I started into what I can only describe as super woo. Yes. You can't fight a womb. Looking back. Do you, could you ever in previous times picked yourself being into superwoman?

Tania (00:15:51):

I was. It's such a good question. I think, I mean, I think I skirted around the edges of it there. One of the lines that I've always loved the most is in Hamlet, which is there is more in having an earth and is dreamt of in your philosophy Horatio. And that always spoke to me that line sung to me that song it's sung a song and I was very interested. This is going to sound a little bit, a little bit,ulofty, but I was very interested in yearn when I was a young woman in my twenties. And he was pretty super woo. I mean, he was pretty nuts really, but he, he had some very interesting ideas about things like the collective unconscious. So he believed that all humans are connected through a sort of amazing group unconscious. And I love that idea and there's, there's no way you can prove that that's.

Tania (00:16:49):

So I was half a strict rationalist. I liked empiricism, you know, I liked fact I was very invested in the intellect. You know, I went to university and I was always top of the class and I liked that. That was part of myself definition. And yet these rather nebulous, interesting ideas were calling to me. And I think I resisted it for a long time because those kind of ideas are quite scary. You know, they're big, they're sort of taking you into the unknowable. They're taking you into the purely theoretical and that's a place that has no limits. And yet I'm a writer and I'm, you know, creativity is the thing that makes me most excited and most passionate and the whole point about creativity and the imagination is it has, if you, if you want to go into it all the way, you have to set that there are no limits to that either. So that's why I hesitated when you asked that question, because I think I've always been half and half. I've been dr. Doolittle, the push me pull you, you know, I'm, I'm half brought into the very rational world, the provable weld, and I'm half drawn to the numinous world. But actually one of the things I talk about all the time with horses and with writing is balance, and maybe that's a good balance. Maybe, you know, maybe you can have one foot in both.

Warwick (00:18:22):

Maybe you can. So tell us about your, you just mentioned the writing. Tell us about your writing. So you have, you have made it to the point to where you at some point in time were a New York times bestselling author. What's been your, what's been your writing journey. Did you, did you want to be a writer? Did you fall into writing? How did all that came about?

Tania (00:18:42):

It was, yeah, it was Sunday times best that I'd love to be on the New York times. That, that's what it was New York times, New York times is harder because being a success in America is really tough. But yeah, when I was little, first of all, I wants to be a three-day event. And then I just decided I wasn't brave enough. I mean, man, you've got to be courageous to do that. Then I went completely the opposite way and wants to be an actress. Wasn't good enough and got rejected by all the drama schools. But since I was about 13, I just been writing and I don't know why we were not a literary family. My dad famously he didn't give him a book because he already had one. He just, he read the sporting life and the racing post and that was it.

Tania (00:19:32):

But anyway, somewhere in it, in my childhood, I fell in love with words. So I started writing mostly for myself and then things got very dodgy, but my mom's second marriage failed and she didn't have any money and I'd read somewhere. But I said, novelist, who'd saved her husband from bankruptcy by writing a bestselling novel. And I was literally 14 and I thought, well, I can do that. So that was how I started and I sort of never stopped. I just went on scribbling and scribbling and scribbling. And then when I came out of university, it was the eighties and there was a ton of money slushing about, and they, the publishers just would buy anything in those days. And honestly, I'm not being falsely modest. The early books I wrote were really very, very, very bad. I was doing my apprenticeship in public, but because it was the eighties and because everyone was just throwing money around, they bought my book.

Tania (00:20:36):

And so I wrote three rotten ones, which I don't regret now because they, you know, it's only by making mistakes that you learn. And luckily nobody remembers them now. And then I wrote a few that I was pretty proud of then the thing something happened, which happens so often in publishing is the accountants come in every self. And then they look at the bottom line and I was not losing them money, but I wasn't making them money. So they have, I'd go to six figures. And I only ever got to five, you know, I got sort of 40,000 copies and they want you to make the jump to 400,000 and I never made the leap. So basically I got sad. My agent left me and I was in the wilderness and that was pretty tough. And so, yeah. Then I moved to non-fiction. That was when I had the Sunday times cellar and I thought, Oh, I'm back in the game.

Tania (00:21:32):

You know, it's all going to be fabulous. And then pretty much the same thing happened all over again. So I had to reinvent myself and I now do an entrepreneurial model, which is that I write all the books that London public, which is, would turn their nose that, so I wrote books about my horses. I wrote books about this journey, cause I was so excited about what I learned from you and what I learned from my read and I wanted everyone to know about it. But if you showed that to a London publisher, they'd fall over laughing. So I just put them out myself when Amazon and I started to read my page and I will send, I teach writing. So basically, yeah, I do lots and lots of different jobs all around the written word and all around my passion for the work.

Tania (00:22:20):

But I'm not stuck in that, you know, that, that awful sort of old school system where you have to hit certain benchmarks and you'll yeah. Constantly being judged on things, which as I get older and I move a little bit towards the wheel, I don't think are very important. So funny enough in the old days, if I'd said to you, yeah, it was on the Sunday times best seller list. I would have the real shimmy of pride and now it was lovely for that younger self. And because it felt like something really important in it, but it's very much an external validation. What I get now is something he wrote me the other day, I'd been writing something about the red marrow in the place of peace. And somebody said, Oh, I was really worried about my own math. And you know, I felt we didn't have a connection and I didn't know what to do.

Tania (00:23:13):

And I tried you all right. Yeah. And it worked now that's one person that's, you know, that isn't five stars in the Sunday times that isn't, it I'm not ranked no public. There will be no public acknowledgement to one human being, but I bet you have this with your group. All it takes, you get one message like that. And you think my life means something, you know, today. Yeah. I've achieved something because I have touched one human and made their life a teeny tiny little bit better. And that's, as you get older, I think that's what becomes more important. Um, know, it's not so much about the ego, although that's always there. Um, s more about just adding a little bit of something to the sum total of human happiness. And that makes me sound very saintly. And of course I am secretly a bit of a Saint, but it's actually, it's not that at all because that's how I get my, you know, satisfaction. That's how I get my happiness now. So it's a very different journey, um m what I set eyes on. And it's actually, it's, it's quite parallel to the horse journey because with the book I wanted to win prizes with the books, just like I wanted to win prizes with the horses. And now it's much more about the thing itself rather than the existential stamp on your passport. Does that make sense?

Warwick (00:24:47):

Oh, Oh totally. I just recently went up probably at a month ago. I went to a three day what was called a men's emotional resilience training. And so it was a, so the guy that, that led it, he's a former combat soldier. He spent a couple of years traveling around with Tony Robbins, like being on stage with Tony Robbins, doing that sort of stuff. He's done a lot of grief work because he had a, his brother passed away and there was a lot of grief around that. The last couple of years he spent, he's done a lot of work with Gebel Matta. I don't know if you know who Gabrielle Matta is. He's one of the world's leading addiction experts. So this guy is pretty well rounded, sort of a, sort of a fellow. And he,uran this retreat for the weekend and there was seven of us in the retreat.

Warwick (00:25:33):

You know, like one guy was a fireman, so us five. And so, you know, they call them first responders here. So, you know, in England or, you know, the UK, the first one at the scene of an accident is the ambulance will hear it's the fireman. So this guy is basically an ambulance guy, you know, so he sees all the bad stuff and it has to be able to block that out. There was one guy in the group who was a former UN hostage negotiator. Wow. So it was, u,u know, it was pretty diverse sort of a group. And it was, and I've been, you know, I've been seeing a therapist and doing all sorts of things for a number of years now, I got more out of this three days, then the last three years of stuff. But, and so the whole model, the weekend was based on was this book, cold warrior, magician lover King. And it's kind of like, you know, what a Myers Briggs test is.

Tania (00:26:26):

I've done them a few times. Okay.

Warwick (00:26:28):

So it's kind of like that. And so each one of these,uhas a purpose. So the, the lover part is the empathy, compassion part. The magician part is the way you kind of half what you either the right wrong, very black and white got to add up sort of thing. The warrior part is the doer of deeds, but the King part, he is the overseer of it. He has the quest and each one of these parts has a shadow side. So if you get it wrong, that's what happens. So the shadow of the lover is the depression or addiction. Okay. The shadow of the magician is tyrant, or you are passive aggressive. The shadow of the warrior is you either a scientist or a masochist in the shadow of the King is the Prince. So the King does things for the good of others.

Warwick (00:27:23):

The Prince does things for external validation, which is exactly what you said a minute ago. And this whole weekend was about how back before the industrial revolution, when we lived in villages or we lived in tribes sort of thing, there was a Rite of passage into manhood. And that Rite of passage changed your thinking from doing things for external validation and doing things for the good of the tribe or the whole, the collective sort of thing. And basically this whole, this whole book basically says that these days men do not have that. We're all a bunch of adolescents running around and we're all got this print energy instead of this King energy, that what you did basically said that you, you said, you know, you used to do things for basically the Prince energy, and now you feel like doing them for the, for the good of the collective.

Tania (00:28:15):

Yeah. And that is so interesting. Yes, it's exactly that. And of course it's the, one of the most pleasing paradoxes of life is that the minute you give up that quest for having people tell you, you're brilliant, having people give you a prize or a cup or a Rosetta or a gold star or whatever it is. Uof course you have a much deeper sense of satisfaction and sense of validation because of course being connected to the collective is what makes us humans happy? Because as you say, only about five minutes ago in evolutionary terms, that was how we lived. And the, the collective was everything. I mean, to the degree of life and death, because if you are cast out of the tribe, the wooly mammoth would get to you. And I think that's why rejection feels so terrifying to modern humans. It's that thing of the more you give, the more you get, you know, if you, if you put something out into the world, which you think will help other people, you get your own satisfaction, your own sense of, of belonging, of meaning. You know, we all want to feel our lives have a little bit of meaning and it's, I find it exactly the same with horses is one of the big turnarounds in thinking huge breakthrough was, I used to go down and thinking, you know, what can my horse do for me today now, I think, and I know this does, this does sound terribly poker face, but I do think it, I think what can I give my horse today? And then, because I'm thinking that she then gives me everything I need and want,

Warwick (00:30:02):

That's it, right? That's the whole host thing, right? First you need to give them what they need in order for them to give you what you want. And they will give it quite willingly.

Tania (00:30:13):

They will give it willingly. And exactly. Then it's a beautiful, free exchange. You're not having to force anything you're not having to wrangle. And I think it's exactly the same with humans. So I never heard of the thing of the King energy and the Prince energy. I think that's fascinating, but it, of course it makes perfect sense. And it's the, the, the less you're looking for that external validation, the more you actually get a profound sense of true validation, which sort of it, and it comes from outside and inside because it's an exchange, isn't it, you're, you're offering something. And then people without being asked without expectation will give back to you. And then, then you're in a beautiful virtuous circle. And the collective is working in its full glorious capacity. And we feel whole, we humans feel whole. Yeah. I love that. And I also, it's so interesting.

Tania (00:31:14):

You should talk about the rites of passage. I was talking to a friend about this only this morning in as I understand it and native American tribes, there's a very important Rite of passage, which young boys go on. And I think it's called a vision quest. Do you know about that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, and it's a really big thing is I don't know if they still do it or if it's part of an ancient tradition, but I always, when I read about that years ago, I remember being really struck and thinking how clever it is to give it a ritual, you know, that they go on a physical journey and they go off on their own. And it's that time when they move from being a boy to being a man. And I think the same happens actually with the Aboriginal Aboriginal peoples in Australia as well. I think isn't there a ritual at about that age sort of, and about

Warwick (00:32:06):

They, Oh, all of the, all of the first nations people in the world, you know, before it, it's, what's really interesting is, and this is pre-internet, isn't it like they didn't have contact with each other, but everybody had the same, whether it's, yeah, they all had the same, you know, they were different you know, different applications of it. But around the same age, there was a, there was a, basically a break where you, you leave that juvenile energy and you have that main energy and, and yeah, they, they all did it at that that retreat, they told us a story about one of the,unative American tribes would have a ceremony, not a ceremony, but a thing where they take the boy at a certain age, out into the, you know, into the woods or out into, you know, failure on the Plains or whatever, but they'd put them in a cave and they'd say, you have to stay in this cave alone all night. So the boy is in the cave, you know, and the wolves outside a howling, you can hear the mountain lions or whatever. And, and the boys spends the night alone in this cave, scared to death. And he gets through the knot. And in the morning he walks out of the cave thinking he spent the night alone in the cave. And as he walked out of the cave, he turns and looks up the Hill and all the warriors are sitting up there.

Tania (00:33:33):

Oh, I love that. And that's, that's so symbolic, isn't it. And if you, if you instantly, I think if you were in a situation where you were in your own internal dark cave of fear, you could imagine your worries, bring your worries with you, and then you're not alone anymore. You know, everybody must have that, that inner warrior that can get them through those dark nights. It's just a question of accessing that and believing in that. But I love that. And I also love, I love anything which has to do with people watching over people. It's one of the things I really love about my red mat is she is the lead man. So she watches over the head and I see her do it with such subtlety and such devotion. We've just had storms and she'll take them to the bit of the field. She'll always calculate exactly the precise spot away from all the dangerous tool trees, and then she'll stand between them and the weather. So the weather's got to get through her first, if it's going to get to her herd. And that's the same sort of idea, isn't it? The warriors are what you feel like you're in the dark cave, but actually the warriors are watching over you.

Warwick (00:34:53):

Yeah, yeah. That was it was a pretty amazing story. This is kind of related to that sort of stuff. But speaking of warriors, tell me about your work with the veterans. That sounds pretty amazing. Gosh,

Tania (00:35:05):

And that's been completely life-changing and I wouldn't have had any of that, if it wasn't for your horsemanship. And in Britain, very few people do this kind of horsemanship. You know, we're still pretty old school and there's a loss of what I was brought up in, which is the sort of kick on school of horsemanship, rather bizarrely three miles up the road. There is an outfit which was working with all the same on all the same principles that you work on, which we learned from Robert Gonzalez, who you've worked with incredible Robert Gonzalez. And I happened to meet this crew at a clinic. So I was right in the early days, I didn't really know what was going on. I just knew that I loved the idea of this way of connecting with the horse. And suddenly there were these people who had this whole incredible head of quarter horses and they were doing this horsemanship, but they were doing it for a real purpose, which was to take wounded veterans and see if they could help them on the road to recovery.

Tania (00:36:12):

At the beginning, it was pretty much basically just, can I get someone with one leg into the saddle? The idea was they couldn't walk so well anymore, but we can put them on a horse and send them up the Hill. It really was as simple as that. And then we started discovering that I came in sort of after the initial, the early days, we still had a lot of people with prosthetic limbs, but we were very much moving into the mental injury side of things because,uwhat we started to realize was for all the physical wounds, there were 10 times more mental wounds and these went back all the, all the way. So you'd get people coming in. Who'd been in Northern Ireland or the full cleanse or Bosnia, and they'd held on and held on and held on for all these years with undiagnosed everything,uyou know, mostly PTSD and then suddenly they couldn't hold on anymore and they'd explode and find themselves in a very dark place.

Tania (00:37:18):

I mean, a real cave. And then they'd come to us. And we discovered that if you put people with really broken minds and broken bodies with these horses and did this kind of connection work real miracles would happen. I mean, people who had people would look at me perfect. ECRC and these are hard guys, you know? And they'd say if it w they pointed a horse and they'd say, if it wasn't for that horse, I wouldn't be here. And what they meant was they would have killed themselves. That's how powerful it was. When I first went out, I was very British. I was very embarrassed by any physical or mental wound. And I remember one of the guys who works there full-time, he is a sort of team leader. He has a,uan IMS seeing his whole face was as he puts it de gloved and had to be reconstructed.

Tania (00:38:22):

He's got a leg missing, he's got quite a lot of fingers missing. And when I first met him, I didn't know where to look because you don't know, Oh my God, there's the eye. Okay. So don't look at the eyes. Oh my God, he was wearing shorts. It was in the sub there's the leg. They look at the leg and it was like that John Cleese thing of, you know, for God's sake, don't mention the wall. And I was also pretty afraid of mental illness. And cause you, you know, you're always afraid of saying the wrong thing and you're always so conscious of your own luck and you know, how is it that this person went through this? And I didn't, so everything about me with Tyson up, and I wouldn't know what to say. And now this guy I worked with, I couldn't tell you whether it's his left eye or his right eye that's missing.

Tania (00:39:11):

I just I've worked with him for six years. I couldn't tell you whether it's the left leg or the right leg that he's got a prophetic on because I just see him. And that was a huge, huge change. I am not in any way afraid of people who are really struggling because I'm so used to working with people with wounds in, in the brain, in the mind and in the body, that for me is a new normal. So they've given me an incredible gift. These veterans they've allowed me to step into a world, which previously was really, really frightening to me. And you know, I worked with them a bit. I do basically I take photographs and do write-ups for the Facebook page, but I work a little bit on the courses. I lend a hand, you know, and it's just incredible because you see what horses can do for people who are, you know, really at the extreme and of struggle.

Tania (00:40:18):

People who couldn't go out to the house for months at a time, people who were completely self isolating, they were all doing lockdown before lockdown was even a word. People who drove away their family and their loved ones, you know, because they were so deep in shame. There's, it's interesting. You mentioned the warrior, there's a lot of pride in the warrior. So the idea of asking for help is seen as an admission of weakness and therefore shame. Uof course the irony is, is that asking for help was pretty much the most courageous thing you can ever do. I think, but it's not in the, in those cultures, there's very masculine cultures. And for all that, there are men and women in our armed forces. It still is a very masculine environment. Uand you sort of, you, they just want it to be able to fix themselves.

Tania (00:41:13):

And then eventually they couldn't. So they'd come to us and you'd see these incredible transformations. And, and some of it is B you know, it is more, more in heaven and earth. And I can explain in my philosophy, I can see how some of it works, but there's a little alchemy. There's a little magic cause a little basically unexpectable. And I just feel incredibly lucky to be, to be privileged enough, to see it and to hear they trust me with their stories. That's a big privilege. And again, to feel that, you know, you're D you're just doing a little something to help people along the way, especially when they've done so much for us,

Warwick (00:42:00):

You know, the thing I got out of the, that the retreat I went to one of the, well, I got so much out of it, wasn't funny, but one of the things I'll get out of it was, you know, we all have these shame about whatever. Yeah. Especially men, you know, not, not, I would say, especially men, but not especially men. Everybody has it, but men have their own shame about certain things. And I imagine women have shame about, you know, other things. And what was fascinating was there was quite a diverse group. Like one guy was a, u,filmmaker and he's very artistic. I wouldn't say a feminine, but you know, heading that way, he had a lot of feminine qualities about it. And so, you know, and then there's the bloody, you know, UN hostage, negotiator garden, that's the fire men and the noses, other beast of a guy. And when it comes down to spilling your guts, everybody had the same fees, no matter where they were on the spec on that spectrum. And the thing was every single one of us was ashamed about it, or have carried shame about those fees where the thing is, uh tly, well, I'll tell you what, there was a lot of, of odd, not enough.

Tania (00:43:21):

Wow. Yes. I I've been hearing that a lot lately.

Warwick (00:43:25):

There was a lot of that, but the, a lot of the fee is, came from fear itself, basically. And, and, and, you know, the fear itself manifests in different ways, whether it's fight flight or freeze. So basically bullies are scared and kava does good, but they're all kinds, you know, it was, it was it was fascinating. And you know, I've, you know, I've seen therapists and stuff like that. And when you're seeing a therapist, you're spilling your guts to them, but there's no, there's no, they're not spilling their guts to you. But when you're in a room full of men and they are spilling their guts, and then like the first night we got there, so we got there Thursday night. So it was a three and a bit day thing, but we had dinner. And then after dinner, we'd go in the living room, sit down on the guard. That's leading. The whole things is okay, what we're going to do right now is we're going to go around the room, introduce yourself, tell us why you're here and tell us something shameful. You've never told a single person in your life. Oh my God, that's talking about hazing, the ground running. And then he said, I'll go first

Tania (00:44:32):

Good leaving.

Warwick (00:44:34):

And what he led out was like, Holy cow, like, okay, I could probably let a bit of myself out. Cause that's a whole lot of stuff. This guy just let out. So he started out. It's very much like I'm really into Bernay Brown these days, but she doesn't preach to people. She shares her story and her struggles and, and she shares her research too, but she backs it up with, with personal anecdotes and stuff. And I think that's, I think that is a great way to break the ice is to, you know, to get someone to be vulnerable is to be vulnerable to them. And that's unlike, Brenae Brown talks about it all the time. You know, we all have this shame about stuff we don't want to share because we feel if we do, we'll be judged. And usually when, when you finally get brave enough to spit it out, you're not judged. You get, yeah, me too. I feel the same way. And you get that validations that have the judgment.

Tania (00:45:23):

I completely agree. I sometimes think me too are the two most powerful words in the English language. And the, I often think of it. It's like a giving of permission, you know, because the person who's told the first story has gone burst. They are giving you permission to be your most messy muddly, vulnerable undefended human self, rather than the public self, which is,uyou know, I've got all this together. I'm doing fine. UI have no weaknesses. It, you know, it depends from day to day, but, and particularly in this modern culture, there's a huge premium on masculinity being seen as strong. But the way that we think of a strong is isn't a knock to me being strong is admitting that you're weak, but the strength is it's like a impermeability it's like, nothing can touch me. It's and then what I see is that because there's no bend in that there's rigid, rigid, rigid, rigid, and then it breaks the whole thing breaks.

Tania (00:46:44):

I mean, I dunno it's very difficult to generalize because, well, it just is. And one shouldn't really, but if there's a difference I observed between men and women, it's that the women, I know when we do band and when we get really bent out of shape, but we do band because I think the culture says that we, we are not so invested in that rigid presentation of strength. We have other shames and other, other cultural demands made on us, but we're pretty good at doing the bandy thing. Whereas you guys are supposed to be these great sort of upright,uimmovable objects. And so when you finally hit your vulnerability, that can be quite a big cracking. I'm mixing all my metaphors here, but,uI see this as a slight difference. And then of course, I think, you know what, and I've seen this a lot when that break comes, it can be the most incredible new beginning, you know, it, that can be suddenly where growth comes. And there's a line in Leonard Cohen. I really love where he says, there's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in. So I think, you know, maybe we need to break a bit so that the lights can get in all of us humans, men and women.

Warwick (00:48:08):

Yeah, I think so. You know, that that whole book archetype thing that they talked about at that, at that retreat, it was saying what it explained was all that stuff that we think of as masculine is actually all Prince energy, right? In true masculine. There's a lot of femininity. There's a lot of vulnerability and all that stuff in the true masculine and all this like toxic masculinity stuff that goes on about these days. That's all Prince energy. Yeah. That's the, that's the non that's, the non fully formed masculine. And it gets so the masculine get judged gets judged poorly because, because that's not good, but it's not, that's not the true masculine. That's not, that's not King energy. That's that's Prince energy. But what you were talking about a minute ago, when you're talking about you know, having that, that shield and that, you know, we're talking about vulnerability, but before that you're talking about the horses and the, and the veterans and stuff like that.

Warwick (00:49:10):

And there's a a horse trainer in Australia. He's a, he trains cutting horses. But this guy in his earlier years spent a lot of time in the orient with some of the, I don't know what martial arts discipline it was, but this guy spent time with the old masters, got to a very high level, but he trains horses now. And someone I know, went to one of his clinics and he starts out the clinic and he says, okay, we need to talk about the three use and not female sheep use, but the three use, he goes, he said, there's the you that you show to the general public. Then there's the you that you share with close family and friends. And then there's the you that your horses.

Tania (00:49:57):

Wow.

Warwick (00:49:59):

And that's the, you will got to go to work on it, because if you want to get along with your horse, that's the, you that's, that's, that's the real you, the you, that your horse sees is the real you, they, they see through all that BS. And so, you know, you started out at the clinic, basically talking about the fact that if you want to get along with horses, you got to sort you out, you can't put on that facade. You can't, you can't fool them.

Tania (00:50:22):

The minute you said that the you, your horses, I thought two things. I thought you can't hide anything from your horse. And I also thought, and they can see it across the pasture. You know, they can see it from a hundred feet away. So it's it's yeah. I mean, this is why I always come back to the word authenticity and you know, what's so interesting about my map is I was late to tell the story of the rearing and the hurling of the head and the going backwards down Hill and the spooking at tea cups. That was a particularly shaming moment. But she was one of the quietest horses in her previous yards. So the guy who sells her to me couldn't understand what was going on. You know, she was a sweetheart had her polo yard. It's nothing to do with her or being an ex resource or being a thoroughbred or being a red Mer.

Tania (00:51:10):

It was me, you know, with him, she got all her needs met when she gets her needs met. She is the most molesta horse you can ever meet. She, she suddenly, she got all the way to Scotland. You know what it's like when they come to a new place. So they're very much in their prey, animal energy. She took one look at me and she said, no, no, no, no, no. You're, you know, you're just not going to protect me from the mountain lions. And I didn't even know that was a thing. Cause I didn't even know my evolutionary biology in those days. I thought you've got a temperamental horse. You set deep, you kick on and you ride through it. But, hhe wasn't a temperamental horse. She could just see the, you that your horseys. And she said, no, you got to do some work please.

Tania (00:52:05):

And so luckily I did and now, you know, there are still days when the, you, your horses isn't quite up to scratch and she will let me know pretty far. So that's why, yeah. This is another thing I love. And you were talking about martial arts. This is probably my biggest revelation is that this is a practice. It's not, you don't just tick a box. You don't say, Oh, I've done that bit of work. And now I can go onto the next level. I have to work on the, you, your horse sees every day of my life. And luckily I've got such an expressive horse because she tells me if I'm not doing that practice, if I'm not putting in the hours, if I get, it was interesting. What you said about the, you, the, you, the world sees my feeling is that you want to make the gap between that the external self that you present to the world.

Tania (00:53:01):

And everyone does that a little bit. And that's because there's a social contract and you know, we don't want to scare the metaphorical horses, but you want the gap between that. And what's really going on inside to be as narrow as possible. So that you're offering your horse congruence. The word I was looking for right there is, yeah, I got, I mean, that was a Jane pike revelation for me because I used to think you put your emotions down at the gate. So I, you know, I pretty quickly understood, I think from watching you work, that, that I had to be a good, steady, reliable partner for my horse. And so I thought it was just that I would dumb all my crap, like a big old overstuffed suitcase at the gate. And then I wouldn't bother her with it. And so I remember writing about this quite a lot.

Tania (00:53:54):

And somebody said to me on my Facebook page, they said, you do know that you don't have to pick up the suitcase again when you leave the fields. But I mean, of course I did, but also I hadn't really put it down. I just pretend I was pretending I put it down. That was me going through the motions. But what that ended up being was completely in-congruent because I was essentially going down to the field and saying, don't worry, I'm fine. Less the emotions at the gate. And we can now have a nice ride or whatever it was. Now I go down. If the processing has not happened that day, if that's a bit of a jangle going on, if I suddenly find myself, you know, my, my staff will reflex this on the off the scale, or I find myself getting obscurely irritated because I dunno the economizer is broken the field railing, which she does the whole time. I'll just, I'll literally say out loud, look, I'm really sorry. Haven't done the work emotions, not processed. You're not getting my best self today. And I apologize for that. And of course, then I'm in congruence because right. And then she, you know, she gives me a bit of a look, but she's fine with that because that a horse can deal with that. I think what a horse can't deal with is I'm fine. They hate that. Don't they it's the lioness at the waterhole, pretending that she's had her lunch when she hasn't.

Warwick (00:55:23):

Yeah. I talk about this quite a bit. As far as I S you know, like giant Pikes says the whole fake it till you make it thing is BS. And I tell people, you are better off telling the horse how scared you are, letting know how scared you are. Not pretending you're not scared because that's just, that gives them the heebie-jeebies that's that th that in congruency, it doesn't work. And the, and the thing about if you actually, if you're actually congruent, like, so that's how you're scared. Then you allow your actions to show you're scared. That means you want put your helmet on, and you're a blowout vest and take your horse for ride down the road, and then blame the guy driving the car for scaring your horse, you know, cause a lot of times, and that's just one example, but a lot of times people, when they have an accident or whatever, they weren't congruent leading up to it. You know, th th th that was scared, but I said, I've got to push through all my friends, want to go for a trail ride, and I don't want to upset them or whatever, but I'm not ready, but I'm going to do it anyway. You know, I think if you are actually scared and you admit, you're scared, you will do things to keep you safe. You know, like, listen to you.

Tania (00:56:30):

Yeah. All my crashes. And we, luckily I had that many but the few that have happened a couple of fallings off one moment where I really did think I was in danger of damaging my horse. Cause we got stuck in a Scottish bog and I, I thought she was going to do her attendance. And that would be it. She'd never be able to walk again. Well, either, because exactly like you said, I was pushing through because I think I'd have, I had a bit of, I would, I must, in those times have had a bit of shame about feeding fearful. So I reverted to the kick on of my childhood or because I didn't want to disappoint someone else. So someone said, you know, let's go the four miles over the Hills from my house, my house to their house. And she's the kind of guy she loves big adventures.

Tania (00:57:29):

I'm not that adventurous. I felt very doubtful for both my horses. And we did end up in this really terrifying book and they were on the verge of panic because they couldn't find their footing. And, and I was on the verge of panic and it could have ended really bad in luckily, because we'd done so much work by that stage. We all stayed together. I was riding one and ponying the other. So you can imagine, and then suddenly you're in a book and it was from one step to the next. It feels so symbolic looking back now and you know, we managed to keep it together. But afterwards I looked back and I said, you know how we, we got that close to disaster because I couldn't say no. I couldn't say I don't feel comfortable with this plan. I wanted that friend to think I was fearless like her, you know, and I'm not.

Tania (00:58:25):

And I should have, this is where you get good fear and bad fear. Don't you get brilliant, helpful, keep you safe. Don't be an idiot fair. And you need to listen to that voice. It. Because otherwise you do end up getting stuck in that fog. And then you get the,uamygdala on steroids where it just thinks everything's about in line. And you're inventing stories in your head of things, which are never going to happen, but feel as real to your psyche as if you are in that fog. And it's learning to, to, to differentiate the two, you know, to listen to the good one, to be brave enough, to just like you say, listen to that bit. Don't get on. And then blame. I was so tempted to blame my friend. I wanted to say, she made me do this stupid rule. Could, u,t no, it was my fault because I said, it's just that we're not up to this. This is too big. It's too big a for us. But I was too ashamed to say it with God. I wanted to blame everyone, but myself know.

Warwick (00:59:28):

And that, that whole fee part you just talked about, like, there's the fee you should listen to, but there's the fee you shouldn't listen to. That comes back to balance. But so you guys listening to this, you, if you haven't listened to one before I have a list of 27 questions, I send out to my guests and they get to choose which ones they would feel comfortable entering on air. And one of those ones that tenure didn't pick was what have you become better at saying no to, right? Then you just told us what you have become better at saying no to you become better at saying no to being worried about that external validation or what other people may think of you. And that's that's growth right there. Cause that one, you know, that I'm being better at saying no to that, I think is a good one. But so that's the question. You, one of the questions you didn't pick, but one of the questions you did pick, which relates to this whole thing is what is your relationship with fear? And I think we've kind of covered this, but what's your relationship with feed?

Tania (01:00:37):

Well, I, it's so interesting to me. I think that was the first question I picked. And it's quite a list that you sent and I just want a yes, that's my question. And I love that we've naturally started talking about fear anyway and, and I think we've covered it really well, but the only thing I would add, and this is a big change, huge, huge, huge, huge, and quite recent is I used to see fear as something that you had to conquer that you had to fight. So, you know, talk about warrior energy. I was all like fair. Isn't going to get me it isn't going to stop me. It isn't going to overwhelm me. I was also, I was very conscious. I had a very brave dad, physically brave, and he wrote huge, great, big steeple chases over enormous credit steeplechase fences at 35 miles an hour.

Tania (01:01:31):

He broke his back in his neck twice. And the doctor said, you must never sit on a horse again. And a year later he was writing in the grand national, you know, he was that fella. He was just wild. And so I always felt in a way I had to live up to that. And I, but I'm also quite invested in moral courage. I think that's really important. The people I admire have moral courage. They're the people who speak up when other people stay silent. And I've had quite a lot of trouble with that in my life. Cause it's a hard thing to do. So I always thought I had to have this battle with fear because then I could be brave. Like my dad and I could be brave like my heroes and heroines. And you'll be very surprised. Hear that didn't work very well.

Tania (01:02:23):

The change. And I love the way you asked the question, what's the difference in your relationship with fear? I now understand that I need to understand my fear, make friends with my fear. She is a woman. I gave her name years ago. She was called Gloria. And for a long time, I thought she was a kind of squishy Cruella, Deville, you know, cigarette holder, long red dress. And she was the one who just came along and said, no, you can't do this. You can't, you're not good enough. You're never going to be good enough. She was the voice of terror in my head. And of course the biggest terror is always that we won't be good enough. So there was glorious swishing around and I thought I got this rather good technique because I'd just go, Oh, we like to swear on the podcast.

Tania (01:03:14):

I just go bugger off Gloria. And I thought that was fantastic. Well, you know, because she was a terrible old lash. So I'd tell her that that was Jen in the next room. And, and again, these are, they're not bad techniques, but they didn't really work. You know, the, the deep terror of just not being the person I wanted to be. And particularly of not being the person I wanted to be for this incredible horse persisted. And then I suddenly started thinking about her in a completely different way. And this is what I mean by making friends with her, I suddenly understood that she was doing what you talked about years ago. I'm an early on in this journey. You talked about people doing the best they can with the information they've got. And so you try not to judge those people because they really are doing their best.

Tania (01:04:04):

I suddenly realized that because Gloria is coming straight out of the amygdala, which is the most ancient part of the brain, which is the part of our brain, the brain that really did keep our human ancestors alive. That propagated the species that stopped them being eaten by the wooly mammoths. Because that's where she lives. She doesn't really understand the modern world. She doesn't understand that there aren't Willie manners anymore. So instead of thinking of her as this, which you , Lil gin soaked demon, I think, Oh my God, she's just Woody. Mama's girl. You know, she's just in the wrong century. She doesn't. So she's, she really actually, when she says, no, you can't start that book because it won't be good enough. And then everyone will laugh at you. And you know, the, the, the critics will sneer and you'll be humiliated. She's not trying to stop me being my best self. She's trying to protect me because for her and Willy mammoth world rejection means getting cast out of the tribe and being eaten for lunch. So essentially she's trying to stop me dying.

Tania (01:05:20):

And once I understood that and I'm, this is a process, you know, , I'm just still, I'm still working all this hours and I can't do it every time. But when I get scared, instead of going bugger off Doria, I go it's okay, Gloria w there are any woman wooly mammoths anymore. And then I can look at the fear and then I can differentiate because I'm not in a rage with jewelry. I'm not trying to, I'm not going into a battle. I'm going into a expiration. So in every uncomfortable emotion, there's a huge amount of valuable information. That's a switch. So I start thinking, where's the valuable information. What's, what's the good fear that should make me say no to the four mile track across the bog, but that's self preservation. That's knowing your own limits. What's the completely made up and make dinner fear that just thinks that everything you do is going to turn to ashes and let's differentiate between those. And that's just send Gloria into a nice, safe place. Doesn't necessarily have to have gin in it, but, you know, with the comfy chair and some soup, let me remember that. I'm not about to be eaten by a saber tooth tiger. And then let's just see if we can take a breath and get some reality going. That's the big change, big, big, big change. And actually one I'm really happy about because God feeling frightened all the time is tiring. Isn't it?

Warwick (01:06:59):

Well, what's interesting about that was you, you did the whole wine dire thing. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change, and you realize that your fear was there to help you. It's not the enemy. And I don't know if you've looked into the podcast that it would Jane, but yeah. So Jane flipped something like that. It wasn't about fee, but Jain flipped something on its head that I've always held a belief about the same way. She said, it's not your enemy. It's your friend. You got to look at it. That's what it was. It's there for a purpose. It's there to help you. It's not there to argue with. And so, yeah, that's, I think we both had the same mum, the same flipping of the switch right there. I'm going to ask you another few questions here. What accomplishment are you most proud of?

Tania (01:07:46):

Oh, my hose. Unlike my hose. She's makes me a bit weepy. I didn't have a happy horse and I didn't give up. I didn't give up on her and she is happy. She is a happy, she's a magnificent incarnation of absolute truest self. And that was a structure that I, I felt so I, and I'm careful with this word, but I D I failed her at the beginning and then with a lot of gritted teeth and a lot of mistakes along the way, and a lot of one step forward and 20 steps backwards. And a lot of I'm never going to get,uand a lot of help. You know what I just said about fear. That's huge. That was all from the work I did with, with Jane. Uyou know, I'd love to take credit for that, but that's all come out of, of Jane pike.

Tania (01:08:57):

And you know, this, this is the creation of many, many human minds hearts. I mean, everybody from the teachers like you to read it, good friends who I can ring up when it's all going wrong. And I've lost my courage to the, I have a wonderful posse of young girls who started coming quite by chance because they didn't have ponies. And I said, Oh, well, you know, come and play with my horse. I never thought that. And then they just kept coming. And of course, you know, they always say the greatest way to learn is to teach. So I realized you can't have kids coming to your fields and playing with great big half tongue thoroughbreds. If you don't teach them, especially this, this horsemanship, which is it's very much about making the environment safe for the horses and the humans, you know, bye bye.

Tania (01:09:58):

Teaching them. I had to learn more and I had to really distill what I had learned so far. So there has been this sort of wonderful community effort. And, and because she had a Facebook page, it's all the people who had come to the page and there are thousands of them and they come and they say, you know, we thank you for the police of bees. And the red marrow is incredible and they don't laugh at my nonsense. And they completely go with the fact that I think this horse is the queen of the world. Yeah. And they've just love every absurdity. And when it's two achievements, isn't it it's that it's that I took a very unhappy horse and I didn't give up. And she now is an extraordinary soul. And that she connects me to so many incredible people, some who I'll never meet in real life, you know, some who are across oceans and as in the far shores of the internet, and some of whom are people who are, you know, part of my daily lived reality sort of miracle also, you know, what's so funny is I should say a book shouldn't, I, I should say,uI'm most proud of,uof something I've written, but I'm not, I'm, I'm proudest of that horse.

Tania (01:11:24):

There's no three ways about it because it's a soul thing. And, and that's what matters,

Warwick (01:11:30):

You know, I think there's a lot more to that horse than just that horse. Like you said, you know, she wasn't happy and now she's happy and I'm guessing you quite possibly happier than you were before that journey. But the thing that kind of jumps out at me, not necessarily accomplishment, you're most proud of, but the, the impact you're making is think about those, your posse.

Tania (01:11:52):

Yeah. How old are those girls? They are now 11 and 12 and 15. They started coming when they were about eight and nine.

Warwick (01:12:03):

Okay. Think about, so it's been about two or three years. Think about the life lessons. They've learned the things that you're teaching them with the red mare that I think we're both the same age. You're the same age as me. And I'm pretty sure. So I'm 53. We won't say how old you are, but you're the same age as me. Uyou think about, you know, it's in the last three years, I've started to wrap my head around this stuff and how much that has changed my life. Think about if you had, what, what path, what, what different direction could we have gone off in? What difference could it, what, more of a difference could we have made if we'd have had the access to this way of looking at things at the age of 10? I think that's just amazing your hands-on work with those girls in the red Mayer. I think that's, that's something I wouldn't, I definitely wouldn't discount that as life-changing for them.

Tania (01:13:02):

I love it. That you said that. Thank you for saying that because it's very, very close to my heart. The thing that makes me happiest and proudest about those girls is not so much all the incredible horsemanship they've learned, which is extraordinary. I mean, they can really do stuff, but it's that because of the way that we approach horses and we approach ourselves when we're with our horses is they've learned to trust their instincts. So they've learned to be incredibly imaginative when they're with the horses, they've got all the prints, but one of the things we often say is we know where we want to get. So say, we've got, we come down. One of the horses is a little bit unsettled. So we want to get her from a place of being reactive or tense to a place of being calm and happy in herself.

Tania (01:13:56):

And I'll often say to the girls, we know where we want to get, but I said, I don't care how you get there because I trust them now they, and they then trust themselves. And so then what happens? And this, this ties in with my writing and is they get creative. They let their imaginations off the hook. There's no, Oh my God, there are rules that we have to do it this way. Otherwise, you know, the BHS will be crossed with us. They can get that any way they want. And often they will get that better and quicker than I will, because they've got that wonderful lightness of childhood as grownups. We're both 53. We do accumulate a little bit of stuff along the way, you know, much as we try not to, there is that beautiful lightness of childhood because they just haven't got the press of responsibility.

Tania (01:14:47):

And I don't know all the things that press on, on adults. And then cultural conditioning is probably one of those. Yes. Yeah. That hasn't silted up. Uyeah. And so I watched them doing things, absolutely instinctively, which I was really have to think about. Ubut at the beginning they didn't know to trust those instincts. So that's the difference with them. And man, when they get creative, I mean talk about the power of stories. It's like they invite the horses into a story. And,umy favorite, one of these is we had a little Connie man have a little, and she belongs to my great niece, but I said, I do the initial training and work and just getting her settled and everything. She was very anxious and she didn't like having her bridal put on. So we did all the work and the connection and everything, and she got a lot better, but there would still be days when the bridal wouldn't go on and I had to have my posse down there and I said, look, I'm just, you just get on with it and do it anywhere you want.

Tania (01:16:00):

And I genuinely thought, I'll go away. I'll leave them for 10 minutes. You know, let them do it. You don't have to step in and do it for them. I knew I could get that right along in a second, but I thought, no, no, let them do it. And I thought, it'll be 10 minutes and there'll be a lot of giggling. And the grinder will not be on. I should have had more faith. There was a lot of giggling. The bridal was on, in about four minutes. The giggling was, I said, how you do that? And the giggling was because they'd done it by pretending to be mermaids. And they invited Clover to come with them into the ocean. And then the mommy thing, apparently wasn't working quite so well. So being very lovely, flexible thinkers, they changed and they just became fishes and they invited Clover to use the bridle to fish them out of the sea. And they said, we think that she got so fed up with us being idiots, that she just put the bridle on herself. And she did. She just picks up the bit without,

Speaker 4 (01:17:04):

I think to me, these kids don't, but you know, no adults, I know

Tania (01:17:10):

We'd get anywhere close to telling their horses story like that, to inviting that horse into that story with them. And we still talk about the day they got the bride lawn by being mermaids and fishes. And for me, that's a parable of of how I can, you know, I learn from them. And sometimes I have to remind myself to let you know, to trust my own instincts, to let my own creativity off the, off the leash. And not to think we have to do everything by, by the rules. So that's another really beautiful part of the posse.

Warwick (01:17:49):

Yeah. I didn't expect that. Yeah.

Tania (01:17:51):

She wouldn't be last in the clinic. Would you say, I know, you know what,

Warwick (01:18:00):

Couple years ago, when I was trying to figure out a lot of this stuff that I've got my head wrapped around a little bit now I was, you know, it was of, I think it was 2017 when I spent the whole year just experimenting in front of people, trying stuff at clinics. I said, I have no idea. What's what I'm doing here, but I've got an idea. And I said, you know what? I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna dress up in a Sephora on Keller robe and chant, Hari Krishna are out here in front of you, but I will, if I have to, it was like, if that's what it takes, but yeah. So yeah, I'd kind of, I'd kind of given up, I'd kind of given up, been inside the box. What other questions did you, Oh, this will be a good one bit lightheaded. One of the questions you chose is what's an unusual habit you have,

Tania (01:18:49):

Well, that champs, like you answered that one because I think, I think my most unusual habit is doing the place of peace with my horse. I mean, it's funny actually, because to anyone who works with you or who follows your horsemanship, they wouldn't find it that odd because there's a lot of standing and breathing. And,uthe reason I think of it at the moment is an unusual habit is because,umy landlord's got the builders in and the builders are very kindly building us and this is very exciting, a new tack room and the feed store. And so normally I get out to my field and it's hidden away. It's Mars off the private road, public road, and nobody can really see me. It's not overlooked by anything. And so when I go in and I stand with my horse and I do the breathing and,uyou know, I tell her about all my emotions, especially if, if they're a bit jangled up.

Tania (01:19:47):

And that feels to me very, very normal. It's not an unusual habit because I it's something I do every day. And obviously it's incredibly meaningful and it's changed my life. But I made me become slightly conscious that the builders think it's a bit weird because I think I think they think I'm supposed to come down to my horses and kind of tack them up and ride them or at least lunge them. But I go and I do this sort of breathing and then I've the place of peace has evolved over the years. So quite often there will be a forehead on for it. So I'll lay my forehead against that and see if I can let my thoughts flow into them and vice versa. And that also is singing. I do sing them songs and yeah, I mean, I'm a little bit conflicted about this because it does feel very normal to me, but I think it's a fairly unusual habit. I mean, maybe I may have this wrong to builders. May think that's what everyone does with their horses. But anyway, it's making me laugh. It's just making me laugh that there's this funny middle-aged women and I'm also, I'm pretty scruffy. So I'm always covered in mud. My hat looks like a cat set on it and I stomped down to the field and I do breathing and singing and chatting with my, my thoroughbreds. And that's how we roll in our field.

Warwick (01:21:35):

That's a great story. I can, I, you know, I'm gonna, I'm going to go with, I think the builders think that's perfectly okay.

Tania (01:21:43):

They are very nice builders. And I, and I have explained to some of them about, you know, a bit of the evolutionary biology, which I'm not sure they entirely needed to know. But you know, we've had the prey animal discussion. They're very good about that problem is, you know, with me, if you ask me a question, I will answer it. And one of them made the mistake of asking me a question. So,uthat was his work warning, slightly ruined.

Warwick (01:22:15):

I was going to say he didn't get much building there.

Tania (01:22:19):

There was a point where he started to look slightly frightened and there was a little bit of kind of backing away. But by that stage I was onto the, you know, the lioness that the water holes I can stop obviously. Right?

Warwick (01:22:32):

No, you can't stop halfway through that story. Okay. I have another question for you. What has been your biggest failure and how has it helped you?

Tania (01:22:44):

I love the framing of that question. That's probably why I chose it because one of the, another of my changes is to not think of failure as failure,uand that all our failures help us. I think hugely, I think, well, my biggest life failure was when I got sacked by my publisher, my agent for the second time. And that was after the Sunday times bestseller list. And I remember at the time thinking, I was worried about how my career was going to go and I have a very good friend and we were actually riding at the time. And she said, well, let's think of the worst that can happen. That's her thing. She thinks what's the worst. Then she PR she looks at all the things that she can do in that situation. And then she finds that the worst thing that can happen, isn't so scary.

Tania (01:23:39):

So we sketched out the worst thing that could happen and it did. It absolutely did, you know, my, my career, which I thought was taking off was completely in the wilderness and it was very humiliating and just horrible and difficult and, and still can be actually a little bit because I do have to be brave enough to go out on my own. It's helped me because it made me be imaginative. It may me go out on my own. It made me understand. What's really important to me. And you know, when you can't do something, I E publish a book, you have to think of what do you miss about it? And I realized I didn't miss the publication. I hated all that. I hated the publicity. I hated the hoopla. I hated going into local radio stations. And they had absolutely no idea who you are because I wasn't a famous writer.

Tania (01:24:31):

There were lots of little humiliating pinpricks, and also I'm an introvert. So I hated having to go and sell myself that that was a really horrible part of it. So I said to myself, okay, you failed in your publishing career in that. And I had written a whole book, which then was rejected, but that doesn't mean that you failed as a writer. And what do you love about the writing? You love touching people. I love that one person who sends me the message saying, I read something you wrote today. And it made a difference to me in my math. I love the English language. I love playing with words. UI love the tap tap, tap of my fingers on the keyboard. None of that required me to be employed. None of that required a publisher to say, we're going to give you an advance.

Tania (01:25:23):

So then I had to work out well, how can I get all the things I love when I've been essentially well, cast out, it sounds a bit dramatic, but that was the effect of it. So I started publishing myself and that's so much more fun. I have complete control chill. There's no marketing department. I reach a much smaller group of people and I have to do it all myself, but it means I can have a thought. I can make it into a book. I can press a button in my room in Scotland and out it goes. And it means I have to have eight different jobs because it doesn't bring in enough money, but then that's, that failure also helped me because it means I've now become a teacher, which I wouldn't have done before. So I tutor people. I teach writing and I teach English and I teach history and, and that's a huge source of satisfaction.

Tania (01:26:20):

And I have the policy to thank because they taught me how to be a teacher. They gave me the confidence to think, well, if I can teach them all this crazy horse stuff, I can teach somebody Othello or harmless or how to write a novel. That was my biggest life failure. And it was you know, it was a proper big in the world failure. Wasn't how I thought about it. It was a failure and it was very public and it was very visible. And the amazing thing is I can talk to you about it now without a single squirm in my tummy. You know, there's none of that little twist of shame. It's not like I'm talking through the shame because it's what happens to everybody. Everybody has a crush and they, everybody has a thing. Whether dreams on the dust is in the dust.

Tania (01:27:13):

And to me, the successful failure is how'd you pick yourself up from that? What do you do with that? What do you, what valuable information do you find that, you know, what hope do you find in that? That's, it's the man in the arenas and that it's are you going to accept that life means getting your hands dirty? And my God you're covered in Dustin sweat, but you're in the arena. You're not going to hide away. You're not going to run away. You're not going to give up. You'll find a way through. And you know, the funny thing is I think if I'd gone on being a success and I'm putting that almost consciously in inverted comments, I don't think this horse journey would have happened because I'd have been, the writer I'd have been in my head. And even if I'd got a horse, I think I'd probably gone down the traditional route because I'd have been all my creativity would have been in my career as it is. I had some creativity leftover, so I could give that to the red man. I turned her into the greatest story of my life, and I don't think that would have happened otherwise. So yes. Thank you for asking that question.

Warwick (01:28:40):

That's a great, great, great, great answer. That was amazing. Oh God, I've got to take all that in, but that was, that was pretty cool. How you, have you ever read big magic by Elizabeth?

Tania (01:28:53):

No, that sounds great. I love the title.

Warwick (01:28:58):

So she's the lady that wrote, she's delighted. They wrote eat love. That's right. And her book, her book big magic is about the, the creative process and how it's about. She actually tells a very interesting story in that book about how she had written some flops. And then she wrote, eat, pray, love, which was almost autobiographical. So she'd written fiction. And then she wrote that, and that was almost autobiographical. And so then she becomes famous from that. And then she has this idea. She wants to write a book. She has this idea come to a, about a a man and his son that had an oil company in Canada. And there's a lady that runs the office. She's their office manager or something or other. And the son decides he wants to go to South America, to drill for oil, goes to new disappears.

Warwick (01:29:54):

And the, the office manager gets sent by the file that, and then to try to find him and adventure in shoes. That's the, that's the premise of the story. It comes to her anyway, she's going to run it, but she doesn't really write it. And the next year she's going to write it, but doesn't really write it. And then she's at I don't know the writer's conference or something, but she needs, meets another writer that she's a fan of. Who's a fan of her, but they've never met. And they meet, Hey, Hey gang, a big, huge fan, give each other a hug. And they stay in touch for the next couple of years. And, but they write, they don't email, they don't phone call. They write letters to each other and they stent. They stay in touch for the next couple of years. And, but sometime during that, she sits down and tries to write this book and it just won't come to her.

Warwick (01:30:40):

Just won't come to her at all. And it's been two years since she met the other lady and they meet up again at another conference or whatever. And then she's like, so what have you been up to? And the other lady. So not the eat, pray love lady. The other lady says, well, I'm in the middle of a book. I've almost got it finished. And she says, Elizabeth Gilbert's is. So what's the book a bit. She goes, well, it's about this father and son that had an oil company in Canada. And there's a lady that works in the she's kind of the, the, their manager. Anyway, the son goes to South America. Anyway, she basically tells the exact same story. And Elizabeth, Gilbert's kind of amazing. She goes, how long have you been writing this book? And she says, Oh, probably a couple of years now.

Warwick (01:31:24):

And Elizabeth Gilbert says, so when did this idea first come to you? And she goes, you know, it was about the time we met. And the whole premise of this book is the writing thing is, is this magic that the universe gives you these ideas? And if you do not use them, they will take them away and give them to somebody else. And she basically says, when we hugged, the idea came out of her into this other lady because the university you're not using it, I've given you this great idea. I've given you this story and you just keep putting it off. Wow. So the whole book is about the, the in, in the creative thing in, in, if you, if you get given this stuff, you don't use it, you lose it. The universe will take it away and give it to somebody else. And she talks to songwriters and yeah, it's, it's it's yeah, it's, I didn't know if you'd read it, but it's a fascinating book about it's we, we book about writing.

Tania (01:32:20):

I'm serious. Super woo. I mean, that's no super weird, but, but,uuone of the things I do, I do talk about with my students a lot is that there is a place where ideas live, where writing live lives. And I think, and I've been thinking about this a lot and it might be connected to this idea. I think it's just in the space, just between the conscious and the subconscious. I think there's a liminal space there and that's where the magic happens. And so one of the things I'm always trying to do for myself and for my students is to get them into that place. And it's a really fascinating combination of kind of letting go, but you still have to have a certain direction and discipline, you know, you can't just blur that because you've got to access that place, but you've got to let go enough that you'll let yourself just slide below the conscious mind.

Tania (01:33:26):

I'd never thought of it, but I never thought of the universe taking the ideas back, but there's definitely a feeling sometimes if I write something really good,uI can say that even though I'm British and brought up, not to pay myself a compliment because it was nothing to do with me. It just, some, it comes that when, when you wrote the really good stuff, it's like, somebody's just giving you dictation. So when you say it's good, but you, you are not boasting because it wasn't really anything to do with you. You just did the typing. So there is definitely that aspect of it. And, and I think it's,uthe reason that all of us writers go on, even though only about 10 writers in the world, actually make a living from doing this is because when you get there and it's, you know, like when you're working with a horse and it's, as if they're working off your thought, your thought is that thought, and their thought is your thought, and you just have that feeling of streaming connection. It's, it's that feeling. Uand because it that's the greatest feeling in the world, that's, you're always hunting for that. Uyou know, a lot of days you're writing and it's quite hard work, you know, you're pushing the rock up, but sometimes you get that Darrow that the universe has thought is your thoughts and your thoughts as the universe is, and there it comes. And like, God, that's on the money. And, and it is not like any other feeling in the world, really that and the red man.

Warwick (01:35:14):

Yeah. When I talked to Joe Ellis, who wrote the journey on song, and he was, he's a musician from South Africa and he was talking about the same thing when, when stuff just playing the guitar and stuff just comes out of your fingers, that there's no thought you're not thinking about it. It just happens. He gets that. That's why you play a guitar to get that. Yeah. To get that, to get that feeling there. Do I have any more questions for you here? Cause we're kind of dragging on here a little bit.

Tania (01:35:43):

I think we've covered it. Well,

Warwick (01:35:47):

We've probably covered this and I think this is probably the red Mayer. The other question that you wanted to ask was what has changed in the past five years that helped who you have become?

Tania (01:36:00):

Yeah. So that is I mean, it's actually, it's funny because the one I haven't talked about is my little Bay mat. She had to be put down in the summer and I was really,ustill was heartbroken, heartbroken. She came five years ago and my mom died five years ago. My mom died two days after that mare arrived. And, mo if the red was eight years ago and she set me off on this incredible journey of exploration and discovery, what the little Beamer did was she, she was okay, she's a completely different character. She's she has, it had a much more steely sense of self. She was much more, she didn't need me in the same way. Umo the relationship that she and I had was completely different, what she allowed me to do. And so here's the change question was the thing that I can't do with the red mask so much, the red man needs me to be reliable and trustworthy and confident and beam confidence into her, the little Beamer.

Tania (01:37:18):

And it's funny that she arrived just after my mom died allowed me to strip myself bear. She allowed me to be completely vulnerable to the degree that this is a very personal story, but I'm going to tell it to you anyway, because this has been such a lovely and honest conversation just before Christmas, this year, a very dear friend of mine killed himself. And that's a big pain, you know, it's a really, it's like it's happening to your body. It's a big trauma. And I knew a bit about grief, but that was a really big one. And the incredible Jane pike said that she had once worked with a Buddhist nun and in birdies, and they have this beautiful practice where for 42 days after science, do you know this after 42 days after someone dies, you do something for them everyday to send them on their way. And because this was such a particularly, you know, it's a very sudden and violent death, he did not live out his natural span.

Tania (01:38:26):

The idea of being able to do something for my lovely, lost friend who I'd known since I was 15, just spoke to me. And so I wrote for him and I couldn't have done that kind of writing on my red map because I was riding and weeping and shouting at the sky. And, you know, calling out to him and saying, go in peace. I mean, talk about unusual habits. The builders would have been really surprised. And that little man, she was tiny. She was hardly a shade over 15 hands and it was December. So she was all Willy and furry with her winter coat. She just took me up that Hill whilst I said goodbye to my lost friend. And she could do that because she had so much sense of self that she didn't mind if I was just falling apart. You know, I did all the things you're not supposed to do with your horse, but she could take that. And then she'd bring me back down the Hill again. We got through it, we got through that heartbreak together and it was one of the best things I've ever done for somebody who's died. I wrote for that lovely man. And she allowed me to be at my messiest and raw best and most cracked. And the light came in. That was a change. Wow.

Warwick (01:40:04):

Thanks Sharon.

Tania (01:40:06):

Well, thank you for taking me there. So it's not just about kicking on,

Warwick (01:40:14):

You know, I was doing a clinic in Australia. I can't remember it was early this year, early last year, but I had a bit of a break and it's two ladies came up to me and they said, you know, you're, you're all on about,uyou know,ubeing there and helping you horse and blah, blah, blah. They said, we're police officers. And we come home from work and we've had a bad day. And she said, our whole, you know, is this wrong? But our horses, we get them out and just going for a ride on them gets rid of all that. And I said, well, the thing is, I think we're all here to help each other. And if you have a, who is, excuse me, if you have a horse who is, you know, who he's worried and all that sort of stuff, then you've got to be the supportive one. You've got to want to be the one to support them. But at some point in time, you get those horses to where they can support you. And instead of them coming to you and just letting it all out and having their freak out and you helping them through it, you can actually have the opposite thing happened to where you can come along and have a freak out and they can help you through that. And that sounds like that's what the, the little Bay mare did for you.

Tania (01:41:25):

Yeah, that's it it's beautifully put. And funny enough, as you were saying that, I suddenly thought that the red man can do it. She doesn't need me always to be the strong one and the confident one. Umhere are days sometimes when I'm going out with my little girls and if one of the ponies has had a wobble, you know, I've really got to keep an eye on my young ones. So again, I'm not doing the thing we're supposed to do, which is absolutely focused on our horses and be there for them. I'm looking at is Clover, okay. Is my little, you know, my posse, okay. Nobody falling off. And the red male will just, she'll just ride herself. I didn't even need a hand on the reins. It's like she says, okay, you've got to be leading there for your lot. So I'll just lead the way for the ponies and I'll just get on with it.

Tania (01:42:12):

And I I'll take the shift. The thing with her is she then needs me to step up. Whereas the other one became almost a sort of force of nature on her own. All she needed was just a little bit of love. She loved physical affection. She she's one of the very few horses I know who actually likes hugs. Umut yes, that's, I mean, that's the relationship, isn't it? It's, it's you invest in, invest in invest. You give them as much of the best of yourself as you can find, you make that promise to them that you're going to offer rather than demand, you know, and that you're going to go on doing the work on yourself and that you're going to try and be congruent. And then once you've done that for long enough, there is a tipping point. I think, as I think then there are days when they'll say it's okay, I have got this shift. And then it's the most beautiful reciprocal. And, mnyway, yes, I think you're right. I think when you've dug the foundations really deep, that's when the re that relationship becomes what you've just described. And that's my God, that's when it's worth all the work, isn't it?

Warwick (01:43:36):

It is. So you just just said something pop up on your screen to say, it's leaving in 56 seconds. He's still there. And so I looked down, I just realized that it's on the, if you guys listening at home, I use a service that records this in two channels. So we can,uedit the sound lighter. We can raise and lower one's level if it's louder than the other, but we can also see each other while we're doing this. So we don't record the visual. We just record the audio. So@thebottomofmyscreenhasgotmyemailaddressorlikechiller.com. The bottom of tenure's screen. It says impartial resonator. And that you

Tania (01:44:15):

I've never heard that expression in my life. I was actually so astonished by it. I wrote it down in my notebook, look, impartial, resonated.

Warwick (01:44:23):

I don't know. I'm going to have to look at what a new passional resonator is, but it says it at the bottom of your screen.

Tania (01:44:28):

Well, I'm going to take it because I think it sounds quite exotic. I think I'm an impartial resonator from now. No, I just thought this is something to do. I'd never done a squad cars before. Nothing

Warwick (01:44:44):

That's that, that says who you are. So you are the impartial resonator, so it's coming up two hours. Uand,uI, I think you've been impartially resonating with me and our listeners for a couple of hours now, but, you know, I was so looking forward to this chat with you, because like I said, I just loved the way you write. And then you, like I said, when I read your writing, I read it in your voice. But, and so, you know, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie,uexcuse me. Uwhat was it called? It was called Slingblade with Billy Bob Thornton. I'm not sure if you've ever seen Slingblade, but he's this guy from the South and he's got this real distinct voice, you know, in this, this,uit's got these real [inaudible] and in the movie, the boy says to him, I like the way you talk, but I have to, I have to tell you the same.

Warwick (01:45:44):

I like the way you talk. Well, you know, I love to read your writing. I love the sound of your voice, but then this whole conversation is being getting what's inside your head, outside your head, through that magical voice of viewers. So it's been a magical conversation. I, you know, every part, it's almost like every podcast I do. I just get more and more interesting people. And the feedback I get was like, I thought the others were good, but this one was amazing. And I guarantee you that this one is going to be a favorite with everybody. Cause I'm going to, I know when we get it edited, I'm going to have to sit down and listen to it a couple of times, especially listen to that line about peering across the, what was that hearing across the species barrier. Umave you, have you watched my octopus teacher yet? No, I don't know about that. A tool. Do you have, do you have Netflix? I do. Oh my goodness. You haven't seen my octopus teacher. So tonight you're going to sit down, you're going to watch it a Netflix show called my teacher. Speaking of peering across the species barrier.

Warwick (01:46:55):

I'll just leave that with you for your homework, but thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure as I knew it would be. And I'm sure everybody listening will get a lot out of this. Well, I can't thank you enough. And if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here. I'd never set foot on this incredible path. So it's really, really lovely to be able to talk about it. And that's dude, again, it was fun. Oh yeah. There's, there's more conversations to be had here. I think I'll end that with I, you know, I get emails from people that say, you know, thank you so much. And you know, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be on this path or whatever. And my bog standard reply to that is I'm humbled to be part of your journey. Well, that's a beautiful thing and I love that we are part of each other's journey and what could be better than that. Yes. Well, thank you so much for being a part of mine and thanks so much for joining us here on the podcast. So you guys listening at home, I'm sure you have just loved this conversation I've had with Tania. Don't forget to join us next time on another episode of the journey.

Speaker 1 (01:48:14):

Thanks for listening to the journey on podcast with work Schiller Warwick has over 650 full length training videos on his online video library at videos dot Warwick, schiller.com. Be sure to follow Warwick on YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram, to see his latest training advice and insights.