Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan experience. Like did you commit'em to memory? No, I just these two things. Oh okay. And just some stuff that I just saw. What's in there? How did first of all I wanna I wanna talk you through like when you were a younger man before you had looked into this, what was your opinions on medical science?
on vaccines. Were you skeptical or did you just kind of assume that everything that we're told is exactly how it is and the experts have only the best interests of human beings in mind and not not money. I had what you would effectively call the mainstream view. Vaccine saved humanity. Me too. We'd all be dead without'em.
Yep. You know, they are the uh um there was the Bible given it to Moses out Sinai, and then there were vaccines. Yeah. That's basically, you know, I think it's anybody that didn't consider themselves a fool. You know, if you you would c you would have to be a fool, like a real fool to ignore all this medical science, which is the reason why there's so many people alive today that would have died. And a lot of that's true.
Um, but but the vaccine one, until this COVID epidemic, I would have never questioned it. I mocked anti vaxxers. I was like, These people are silly. Don't they know all the good things that vaccines have done? And the this the blatant propaganda that we were force fed like one of those ducks are trying to make Fogwa with th it just made me stop and pause and go, is the whole thing like this? Is this whole thing just a dirty money laundering operation?
Because it kinda seems like that's at least part of the reason why they were telling people to get boosted when they knew it wasn't working and and telling young people that didn't need it to they wanted to make a lot of money. That's the only reason why you would do any of those things.
after a certain amount of information is out. And so it just made me stop and think about the whole thing and go, Well w why would I assume that this is the one area where pharmaceutical drug companies, doctor everybody's been totally honest in this one area. When it's like a religious thing and if you question it. And one that's the well, I love the title of your book.
Yes. Vaccines Amen. The religion of vaccines. You it's that's what it is. It's a religion for secular intelligent people with a higher education. And it causes incredible cognitive dissonance for anybody out there to come to the conclusion. that the CDC and the FDA and our public health authorities and what the entire medical establishment has been telling you may not be accurate about vaccines. Because like what you just said. The claim that you're a flat earther. You're an anti-vaxxer.
Right. They're completely equal in their impact. And so it takes incredible cognitive dissonance to r say there are real problems with vaccines. But vaccines really sit in their own little universe. They're unlike any other medical product. They're not like penicillin. They're not like any other drugs. They're not like any other product out there. Any other product in this room, anything out there for one major reason. Every other product that exists.
I can sue the company. I can hold them accountable. If that product injures or kills you or your child on the basis that product could have been safer. The only product, and I mean this literally. The only product in America Where you cannot sue. To say had you made that product safe?
My child wouldn't be dead. My child wouldn't be seriously injured. They wouldn't have a neurological disorder. They wouldn't have immunological disorder. They wouldn't have a nervous system disorder. They wouldn't have a cardiac cardiac issue. are childhood vaccines and child vaccines used by adults. It's the only one, and that's because of a law called the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of nineteen eighty six.
pharma companies that incredibly special immunity. Now just to put that into context. And and I'll and I'll tie this back in a second as to how we ended up with this notion of uh th this belief religion in vaccines because, you know, given industry forty years of unopposed ability to influence, they're gonna get pretty dang far, and they did with vaccines. And so, um, you know, uh
A lot of industries face a crossroads where their products are causing more harm than good. Gas tanks used to explode. What did they do? Made a better gas tank, right? Building materials had asbestos, caused cancer. What do they do? They make better building materials. Right? Did they give them immunity? No, of course not. But in the instance of vaccines leading up to nineteen eighty six, there were only three routine vaccines.
That's it. That's all there was. A child following the C D C schedule in nineteen eighty six got three injections on or before their first bath birthday. Okay? Those three products were causing so much harm and injury that every manufacturer of them s went out of business. And that was the MMR vaccine, the DTP and the OP. Every single one, f from six down to one or for the Pier Tussis vaccine, six down to one for measles, about three down to one for polio.
And with one company left for each, instead of forcing them to do what every other industry has to do, like I said, make better building materials without asbestos, make better cars that don't explode, go down the chain of different products out Congress did something completely unique. It said, you know what? We're just gonna give you immunity. We're gonna make it so that no company, excuse me, no individual, no parent, no child can sue you for the injuries and deaths caused by your vaccine.
That is what the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act nineteen eighty six did. And not only for those three products, but for any other childhood vaccine thereafter. And what that effectively has done is given forty years. for the industry to promote their products with no pushback. When you read about a problem with a car, where are you reading about it from? Usually a class action lawsuit in the paper, right? You're not gonna read about that in vaccines typically.
And because of that, you ended up where we are. Anyway, so there's a lot more detail to that, but I'll stop there for now. No, please keep going. Well, I I I mean th When you think about um What makes products safer, right?'Cause I've got a I've got a law firm with over a hundred and individuals. I'm the managing partner of the firm. Half my firm does all types of plate decide class actions. We can hold companies accountable for almost anything.
Your data. We do t hundreds of data breach cases, genetic privacy cases, biometric privacy cases. We do all kinds uh all types of of of lawsuits like that nature, by the way. And the New York Times loves those laws. That stuff nobody attacks me for, okay? Oh, making making my privacy better? Oh, m protecting me from cars that explode. Oh, thank you.
Make vaccine safer. You want to kill everybody. Okay. But well's where I think i I can make I'm hoping I can make it make sense without causing cognitive disaster. So going back to how we make products safer in America or anywhere, it's not the government. Governments don't make products safe.
Look at extremely authoritarian regimes where there was very little m free market like the former USSR. You think products are safe? No. What makes products safe? It's the economic self interest of the company. It's the economic interest of the company to make the product safer. Why? You probably own stock, right? And where do you want your stock to go up or down? How do you want it to go? You want it to go up or you want it to go down? Where do you want it to go? Up. You want it to go up?
Thank you. Okay. So do all the investors. Right. So does everybody who owns. So does Wall Street, so does the CEO, so does the board, so does everybody. The people who have the stock everybody involved. All the employees that have stock options, including usually the major ones, everybody wants it to go up. If you lose money, it doesn't go up. So normally, the interest to assure a product is safe. is aligned with the profit movement.
Because if your product causes injury and harm, then you're gonna lose money. So you wanna know typically. You have an economic self interest as a corporation to know not because you're altruistic, not because you're moral, not because you're ethical, just because You have that economic self-interest to assure the product is safe before you go to market and after you go to market. Okay? And that exists for every product in America, with effectively one exception, vaccines.
That's really it. Like attractive vad är din hermörgen, see? Du plattade alltså håret utan värmeskydd. What's wrong with you, woman? Räddande hårdvård hos Luko, Your Beauty Playground. Väng firar 70 år av resor som är svåra att släppa taget om. Och det gör vi med massor av erbjudanden som är omöjliga att motstara. Boka redan nu på ving.se. De bästa resorna försvinner först. Ving- Semester. vill hem från. Yeah. I'm going to show you one result of that in practice. Okay.
When you think of drugs, and and this will help, I think, tie into what you were saying about what happened with COVID, most drugs are licensed based on multi-year placebo control trials. Most of them. Why? Because the FDA requires it? Because the FDA is so great? No. Nothing to do with the FDA.
It's because the company wants to know whether the drug is safe or not before it goes to market.'Cause you know what happens with the drug that they put out that's gonna make forty billion in revenue or twenty billion but causes a hundred billion in harm? They end up upside down. So they want to know to a reasonable degree how safe the drug is before it goes to market.
In an attempt not to cherry pick, as I did in my book, I found an article that listed the top four selling profitable drugs by Pfizer as of like two thousand twenty twenty one or something, twenty nineteen, okay? And if you look at those four most profitable drugs, as I put in my book, each one has two to seven years.
A follow up in the clinical trial that was relied upon to license that drug against a placebo control group. Just to make sure everybody I'm sure everybody knows what that means, but that just means a group that gets something inert. So this way you you give a group the experimental drug, you give a group the placebo, something inert, you track them for multiple years, and then you compare
All the outcomes, cardiovascular outcomes, neurological outcomes, immunolog go down the list. Cancer rates, and you see the difference. You get a real actual sense of the safety between those two uh for that product. In contrast, for most childhood vaccines. Instead of years, it's often days or weeks of safety review in the clinical trial, allowed them how to license them. Not a single thing. folks contests all the time, but it's in the FDA literature.
Not a single routine injected childhood vaccine was licensed. based on a placebo controlled trial, save for the COVID vaccine, by the way, for children. It's the only one. Not a single one. Okay? Um nor Was the vaccine sometimes uses the control itself licensed based on a placebo control trial, nor anywhere down that chain?
Chapter ten of my book, I go through every vaccine th I go through I have it all cited to the FDA licensure documents. You can listen to the talking heads or you can rely on the primary sources. from the FDA, which is why I call my book Vaccines Amen, because there's what they tell you and then there's what the actual evidence shows.
So um that gives you an example uh the outcome of not having an economic self interest. With drugs they have it, so they want to know the safety. Can I um challenge you on that? What about these? Like the Viox people knew that there was one of the things that was revealed during the trial is that they knew that there was gonna be issues.
But they the I think the quote was we th we still think we'll do well. And that was one of the damning aspects of the email uh disclosure. Because you got a chance to see how these guys talk about this drug that they're I think they wound up paying a percentage. Of the m amount of money they made from the drug, but they w made way more from the drug.
Than they did the fine. No, I I appreciate that challenge and it it's why I said when I I was saying that they do the analysis of whether they're going to have a hundred billion in loss or fift forty billion in revenue. I'm not saying they won't put out a drug that causes harm. You're saying because it caused too much harm. Exactly. Okay. They can't they don't want to end up upside down. And remember, the whole reason a drug is licensed
Is because it can cause harm. The crazy thing about the Viox one is I think it killed somewhere north of fifty thousand people. And they still made profit off of it. Which is kind of bananas. They pulled it and m and made billions in profit. This is the m the darker aspect of the If you were talking about companies that never did anything wrong that had the highest moral and ethical standards,
And they're the ones because it's not about money. It's about saving people's health and it's about public safety and we gotta make sure that we do this right. We've got to make sure we squash all the disinformation. But that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about these companies that have been fined billions. Billions of dollars in criminal fines for fraud for all kinds of shit.
These are the people. And the the idea that they wouldn't lie about vaccines. Like this is the one thing that they're gonna tell you the truth. Ruthless capitalist attached to money and drugs. This is the one thing they're gonna a hundred percent tell you the truth about. That seems kind of kooky. That's a hard sell for anybody who's not ideologically captured. That's a hard sell.
Yeah. But I don't I don't think you need to go down the road that there's some kind of evil nefariousness there. It's a broken economic and regulatory system from my perspective. Right. It's just a completely broken economic system. To your point about Viox, right? So in Viox it caused incredible amount of harm, but they still Decided that the benefits raised the risk. case we learned in law school. And the the gas tank and and
These you know, these customs. Was it a Pinto? It was the Pintos, that's right. Yeah. And and a number of them explode every year, burning the people inside them alive to death. Right? Horrible. Way to go. And and uh there was a lawsuit and in that lawsuit what they discovered was the company had done an internal calculation in which it it it did the math. What's it gonna cost to actually fix all the gas tanks?
V what's that m dollar number versus what's it gonna cost to just pay out for those deaths every year for those people that we burn knowingly are gonna die and burn to death in those cars? And the calculation was that it was gonna cost less than to pay out for the deaths. And that is what the internal document showed. And that, by the way, is in part the case, the quintessential case you learn in law school for why they have punitive damages.
because the punitive damages were there to force the company To conform its conduct. In exactly that scenario where the economics weren't gonna do it. Right? Even in something that horrible when the market forces weren't sufficient, the economic self-interest wasn't there, you had to make it happen. How? Through punitive damages. I know there's a lot of
you know, news about punitive damages, oh it's excessive and so forth. But that's what they're there for. They're there for that scenario. We're we're just holding them accountable. Now go back to vaccines. Think about how incredibly harmful And how much harm these vaccines must do that they cannot survive on the market without this immunity.
From nineteen eighty six. Think about that. If you were gonna steal me on the argument against that, wouldn't you say look, these are we can't have frivolous lawsuits against these people that are providing us the most important medication that's available to humans.
The the whole reason why we survived smallpox and polio and all these different things. It's these vaccines. Without them, we'd all be dead. This episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. I have used their knives for years. They are absolutely fantastic. The company was founded by one of the most experienced master bladesmiths in the world, my friend Josh Smith. He has been making knives since.
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And get in on their SMS notifications for special knife drops. My personal favorite blade is the Speed Goat 2.0. I use it all the time. It's an amazing knife. Montana Knife Company, working knives for working people. Uh uh let's just assume that the last part of what you said is true, which we know it's not. But with that said, steel manning it. Easy response. Okay? Okay.
Drugs Drugs that are for very small populations, meaning not a lot of market, not a lot of sales, that cause incredible side effects can survive on the market profitably. Think about it. Why? Okay? Here's why. A little bit of le legal stuff, but it's not that hard. It's not that bad. Okay. The primary claim you would typically bring against a product is the claim that it could have been made safer. It's called a design defect claim.
It's a claim to where I say, Hey, had you put in a two cent stopper on that gas tank It wouldn't have exploded. If you'd have put in a one penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd have had my finger. Okay? Design defect claim. The claim you could have made a product safer. It is the primary claim you would bring for a product. Okay? So how do you protect against it? You make the product as technologically safe as possible.
Right. So if you have a drug that causes incredible side effects that we just talked about, make the drug as safe as possible. Make sure the there are no contaminants. Make sure that you use the best possible ingredients. Make sure the combination, right? the the the safest adjuvant, go down the road. That's that's number one. Number two. The second most uh uh the the second way you y you hold them accountable is you bring a claim called a failure to warn claim.
I failed to warn you about the harm that the drug could have caused, okay? And so what do you have to do there to protect yourself? The company has to disclose all the potential harm. If it has it right there in the package insert and you get it and it says hey it can cause this, this, this, this, this, you were told you chose to still take the product. They made it as safe as technologically feasible. They disclosed the risk.
And that is how companies typically limit their liability with medical products, with drug products, okay? Why can't they do those vaccines? Why can't they just make them as safe as technologically feasible? Can't sue for design defects. And disclose all the actual risks in the package insert. Okay? The logical conclusion is that and uh and one other point to that and I'll and then I'll I'll dump I'll respond to your steel man, okay? And it's this. All right?
It's been forty years for some of these vaccines. Happy vaccine, for example, licensed in eighty six and eighty nine, the two standalones. It's been forty years. You're telling me they still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? You're giving it to millions of kids a year, you're making billions of dollars on the sales of this product, and you still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity, please.
Um okay if I was a a silly person, I would probably say these vaccines are more important than any medication that's ever existed. Because they are the reason why we are here.'Cause that's how we survive smallpox and polio and the measles and everything else. And without them we would have perished, uh we would have never achieved the technological states that we're at because we wouldn't have been healthy. We would have gone through mass plague.
Okay. So would so in because of that, it's just important that they stay uh they stay in business. Yes. Yes, sir. Uh Amen. Amen. Yeah, I I try not to do too much believing and I try to do a little bit of, you know, evidence based thinking. But any event
Look, when it comes to these products, uh I saved my beliefs for religion, the unanswerables, uh where do we go when we die? Right, uh and so forth. I have to take a leap of faith and I do it when I need to, but you don't need to with these products. Okay.
On the on on the first part of what you said, f first of all, there are products probably that are far more important to humanity at the moment, no question about it, than vaccines, even assuming it had the results that you just claimed, which I'll address in a second
Imagine you you said, you know, look cars are essential. I mean cars you can't get an ambulance, you can't get to the hospital. Without cars you can't get to work, you can't get your kids to school. I mean, it's essential to a functioning society, so let's give cars immediate liability. Intuitively you'd say Right. That is one of the mythologies around vaccines that has developed over time. This notion that everybody in America die without vaccines.
Um in chapter seven of my book and I lay it out for every single disease. And what I do there is I say, Okay How many deaths were there in America the year before the vaccine was first introduced or widely or in or or widely used or so forth, okay? In any d real degree. And what you find is If you go down the list, there were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe a thousand or so deaths.
From each disease for which we vaccinate. The further back in time you go, the larger the the number, but in that dozens to a thousand or so deaths. Okay. For example, measles, the dreaded measles that they say everybody will die. No measles vaccine, we're all gonna die. Right? That is the impression they give you. You have any idea how many people died of measles in the years before there was a measles vaccine in the United States? How many? About four hundred a year.
That's it? That's it. Four hundred a year, died in the United States at a time when everybody had measles. Which comes out to about one in four hundred and fifty thousand Americans dying of measles that's in the C D C anybody listening to this who's like, come on, that's not true. C D C mortality documents on the C D C website, cited in my book, four hundred. And don't About fifty thousand people every year die from the flu? Well that statistic is uh uh uh um includes
Bacterial uh deaths that they say are potentially the result from having influenza. But So your immune system gets weakened and then something else hits you? Uh and that kills you? Is that the idea behind it? That's just the way they gather the data is the way I'll put it. But uh um with influenza
Well let me finish let me if I finish up with measles.'Cause I think this is important on the measles one and I can deal with influenza eat as well. But on the measles one, just to really cause you're saying well everybody would die with that. I don't think people think of influenza by the way. They think of measles. Right. They think of uh those diseases. Right. I don't ever hear anybody say to me, Well, everybody will die of influenza without influenza vaccine.
Everybody it's available, everybody can get it. Uh the mortality hasn't changed much in fact. If you look at the mortality of influenza before influenza vaccines are widespread, we're not doing that great. Okay. Anyway, putting that aside for a moment. Not only that, isn't there data that shows that if you get it, you're more likely to get other colds?
Yeah, I have a whole um uh giant footnote in my uh book about this and I I actually tweeted this out and did a stuff stake about this, a whole series of articles. Studies that show that those that have had the influenza vaccines, maybe these studies often reflect have around the same rate of influenza, maybe they have less respiratory influenza. But they many studies show they have multiple times The rate of other respiratory infections.
So good job. Maybe you've reduced your risk of influenza by this much, but you've increased your risk of another different respiratory disease by that much. How much is it? I mean literally three, four, I mean huge percentages. So and they're statistically significant in these studies. And so, you know, when you are looking at a now these are all retrospective epidemiological studies.
And but when you do a retrospective epi study, which means you take existing data and then you study it versus saying, Okay, we're gonna do a study and follow people going forward Um, if you find like a 1.3 time which means thirty percent increased risk, like that that's a public software finding. This is three, four hundred percent Yes. And in many of these studies. It's inconvenient data, so obviously it's not talked about. Right. Um so four hundred people's not a whole lot.
But um it's also one of those diseases that um when you're a child, it's much more survivable, right? Than adult. Adult it's rough, isn't it? Yeah. So m measles, uh the ideal age to get it is not when you're a an infant, which in the prevaccine era infants typically did not get measles because they got maternal immunity from the mother.
And a y and you don't want to get it as an adult because it is more likely to cause problems, which again in the prevaccine era wasn't a problem because everybody virtually got it as a child. And and when you got it as a child, um my recollection of it was the episode of the Brady. Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah, we're laughing about it. Let's watch this. We'll find that clip and let's watch it because it's so indicative of what measles was actually like in the culture
versus this boogeyman of today. I mean it it is it's so stark. It's so c I mean it's like imagine the kid coming home, hey mom, I've got AIDS, I gotta stay home from school. It's not that, right? It's it's the way that most folks who've had chickenpox think of chickenpox. Right. Um but we're told that it's killing people. We're told that it's killing people now. We're told that it's killing it's always kids. They're we're we're told it's killing kids now.
And um look, if anybody dies from measles, I'm very sad. But I wanna know, is it with measles? Remember the with COVID or from COVID? Like what kind of condition were these people in before this h hit them? Because some I mean that was the thing about COVID. It's like it yeah, it's fatal. If you have four plus comorbidities Aaron Powell Uh That's m almost certainly the case, and I can I can add another data.
To help support that which is that between nineteen hundred, and this is again CDC data, between nineteen hundred and the late nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, the mortality from measles declined in the United States by over ninety eight percent. You know what didn't cause that? Vaccines. Yeah, because it didn't exist.
But but immunity had become a a a herd thing, just like covet ish right now. Well I everybody basically has had covet or at least has been exposed to it by now. Yeah. Here it is. What's a whole I don't know which one is the best one, but it is one. Put on your headphones for a second so we could hear this. Aaron. Oh, yeah.
Oh no. Are you sure it's the measles? Well, he's certainly got all the symptoms. A slight temperature, a lot of dots, and a great big smile. A great big smile. No school for a few days. You got measles. Golly, mothers are supposed to know everything, but do you keep proving it? You've got a temperature too. What do you mean too? The Peter was sent off from school a little while ago. Oh, what was his temperature? 101.1. Oh is that awful?
I'm 101.2. Oh, Greg, you are my railroad. I'll be a sport. You can ride on it free. Thanks a lot. It's your turn, Peter. I know. Yep. Boy, this is the life, isn't it? Yeah. If you have to get sick, you sure can't beat the measles. That's right. No medicine. Inside or out. Like shots, I mean. Don't even mention shots. Yeah. Okay I mean, am I crazy or or or have we gone through the one of the wildest gaslightings?
Of anything ever. There's there's people out there that because of the things that you said so far about the measles, will be 100% freaking out on Twitter. Right. But this is this is a window into how the American public thought I know it's a television show, I know it's sitcom, but you can't joke around about stuff that other people wouldn't think is fun. Yeah. And everybody at home will be like, Oh, I wish I had a day off. Well
That's how they thought of it. Yeah. And to put hard data on it, going back to that statistic over ninety eight percent reduction. Remember it's not like COVID, Joe, because COVID there was no immunity in the population, right? Right. Measles has been around for forever, as far as we know, thousands of years. Right. The year nineteen hundred wasn't the beginning of herd immunity.
nineteen hundred, measles already endemic. Everybody was getting measles. So every year there's a few million people cohort that were getting it and you had the this decline. And so you have to ask yourself, what was the decline? Um It was probably better sanitation, better m acute medical care. I mean, um all kinds of things. And you know who could take credit for most of that stuff? Better sanitation, uh better living conditions, better uh you name it. Probably public health authority.
Meaning the improvement in acute care, the introduction of antibiotics Better living conditions, not having sewage in the street, you name it, probably had a massive contributor to that reduction, but they never point to that. And there's one other really inconvenient data point with measles, and this is really where it gets upsetting for folks out there who you were just saying are gonna watch the show, and it's this. That re over ninety eight percent reduction in mortality
There's no reason that that curve was not going to continue.'Cause pockets of the United States in the late fifteen, early sixties were like a developing country. In a developing country, kids are gonna die. of any infectious disease because of extremely poor living conditions. And as those improved, most likely that four hundred deaths also would have continued to decline. Four point two million births in the United States
in the late fifties, early sixties, about three point eight million births today. So in fact, there's less children being born in America today than there was then. So you have a you have a smaller cohort of babies, young children to infect.
And final data point, and it's this, and this is really uh I know this is this is gonna cause cognitive dissonance for some, but studies that have looked at those that have had measles versus those that don't find that those that have had measles have a statistically significant greater uh reduction in uh deaths from cardiovascular disease and various cancer. So I'll give you an example.
There's a 20-year, 22-year prospective study in Japan done by funded by the government of Japan and major universities that tracked a hundred thousand people in Japan for twenty-two years, and it found that those that had measles and monks. had a twenty percent statistically significant decline in deaths from cardiovascular disease. Think about that for a second.
Just think about that. About 800,000 Americans die of cardiovascular disease. If eliminating measles and mumps has increased cardiovascular deaths in the United States by even 1% on a life years lost basis. You are still way upside down. on your public health benefit by eliminating measles. Can I ask you what the speculation is and how that could be? Why why would measles and mumps infection at a early age improve your
your health cardiovascularly. Why would it also those that have not had measles have a sixty six percent increased rate of host nonhostilophoma and two hundred and sixty six percent increase rate. of Hodgkin's lymphoma, which kills twenty thousand people a year. Why would women that have had measles have fifty percent less ovarian cancer, which kills a lot of women every year? Um w what is it about it? W maybe, and here's the thing.
Um I'm you know, uh and and you can have evolutionary biologists talk about this as well. You've had some on. Think about it this way, pathogens have come and gone throughout the ages, right? Right. This one didn't. Measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox. They didn't. It could be, maybe. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying this is what the data appears to reflect.
What I just told you about with cardiovascular disease and cancer, they're all in PubMed. They're all PubMed studies, they're all in the published literature, and they're all consistent having the findings that I just described. Okay. I I'm just a lawyer. I'm just repeating to you with the data reflect. Um it could be that having those febrile childhood infections confer to survival advantage overall.
And it could be the reason they never actually went away over time. Became less obviously pathogenic. So it has like a hermetic effect and it makes you physically strong. That I mean it's not outside the realm of possibility, right? I mean if wi lifting weights makes you stronger and you know, studying makes you smarter, wouldn't it ma make sense that some form of infection that you recover from will make you more resilient? It does make sense.
Um it just like no one wants to say to hey, you should go get measles. Yeah theory of relativity is not intuitive. Why is it as you approach a more massive object or approach the speed of s light, does time relatively slow down? I don't know if it makes sense or not. It's just what when you put two atomic clocks on a plane, one on the ground, one in the plane, you fly it around the earth.
They're not ticking the same, so p there it is. Right. I it You can't pretend that's that is what it is. Right. It doesn't have to make sense to be true. That's a good point That's just what it is. That's a right. And I'm just saying what the studies show.
Um very inconvenient, a lot of cognitive dissonance there, but it could very well be that our whole this whole program not only do we so going back to your whole going all the way back to your point, you're like, Well they'll say me vaccines are so important, we gotta give them this immunity. No. In fact, quite the opposite. Our babies are so precious. are so important. We want to make sure we have the safest possible product you can have.
And the way to do that is to make sure the companies have an economic interest to make sure they're as safe as possible. I I agree with you entirely. But if if I was questioning anything, I would say, okay. if we don't have genetic immunity anymore,'cause our parents didn't have it,'cause our parents were vaccinated against measles. Um wouldn't it be better to keep vaccinating people rather than let a whole bunch of people with no immunity to measles get it, particularly like older people?
So y uh this is a really important thing. Okay. Because here here's here well I've got to be able to do that. When in when they mandated vaccines or when they started giving them to people was what in like the early sixties, I believe. For measles vaccines. For measles vaccines. Did a lot of people resist it? Was it back then? Were the hippies opting out? Were there w is there like a group that you could follow and track that never got it, never got the vaccine while everybody else did?
So you know who we re we represent right now because New York's trying to Basically sh kick them out of New York for not vaccinating. We just won in we just um in the US Supreme Court uh we were just successful in vacating the lower court decisions just a few weeks ago. Do you remember when Kathy Hochel was talking about the vaccines like they're a gift from God? She believes it. Did you but do you remember how she was saying it?
In any other business, if you were running a pharmaceutical drug business, if you're running a if you were running Chevy and you're making a new Corvette and you started it talking about how this Corvette is a gift from God, everybody will go, Oh Kathy's cracked. Yeah. Like what are you talking about? It's a bunch of engineers. We put together a great car. Like what are you it's a gift from God.
What? People don't say I believe in tables or I believe in chairs or I believe in TVs or I believe in wallpaper. Right. But they say I believe in vaccines all the time because it carries a truism. But do they work? Like does the measles vaccine prevent people from getting measles? Or is it a leaky vaccine? Is it a completely So Answering that and your prior question at the same time. Sorry. No, no, no, don't be sorry. No, you're not scattered at all. Is is that I uh is that uh um is that
The measles vaccine, measles MMR vaccine and chicken box vaccine can prevent transmission. That is not true of most vaccines, but those can. So Those can. And so to your now going back.
the differential. And in fact, for most of the other vaccines like protestis vaccines and so forth, they make you more likely to spread the pathogen if you're vaccinated, and I can tell you all about that. But before I do that Let me just point out that to your last comment, because measles MMR vaccine and chicken pox vaccine can prevent transmission, you are correct. If measles were to come through society right now. Right now.
in the current time. It would be problematic. Because babies who aren't supposed to get it would be more likely to get it because the mothers aren't conferring the same maternal immunity that they did in the prevaccine era because the vaccine doesn't confer the same level of immunity anywhere near. And older folks Um uh because the vaccine is nowhere as efficacious as having had the infection.
Depending on the study, two to ten percent do not sero convert even after two doses, meaning they are not getting immunity at all, pretty much, or an immunity as considered immune. Is this when they take it later in life or when they take it when they're young?
Uh th this is when they take it w when they're young. Um and and that's why when there's a measles outbreak, a lot of times you'll hear a call to even have folks who are older get the measles vaccine again, right? There's there's guidance on that. because it doesn't confirm. If you've had measles, you're done. You never need a vaccine. Again, you'll never get measles again. One and done. Right. Um but um so yes, it would be It would be problematic.
right now for those for th for MMR, measlesbonce rubella and chicken pox to just kinda let it rip. Uh you would have to really uh you know have an an educational campaign beforehand if you were gonna do that. But for the other vaccine HEP B vaccine, protussis vaccine, not a problem. Those vaccines don't stop transmission. And it's kinda crazy that they give that debate. Kinda crazy. Kinda crazy if the parent aren't intervening his drug users or or whatever, whatever would give them HEP B.
That you're you're gonna inject a baby with a vaccine that prevents them from getting a sexually transmitted disease and like a rarely sex you gotta be doing something rough. Joe, you just don't understand what goes on in the NICU. I mean that's the it just seems crazy. Another data point which is in Denmark Okay? There is no Heb B, universal Happy for kids. The only time they give Happy in Denmark.
Is if the mother is HEP B positive. So their HEP B vaccination rate amongst children is like point one percent or something to that effect. Okay? So here you go. Two first world countries, America and Denmark Universal HEP here, n virtually zero HEP B vaccine given there. The rate of HEP amongst children, not statistically significant. You know what is different between those two countries? The rate of harm from HEP B vaccine, that's different.
You know what a baby's never died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has died of in the first day of life? Hepatitis B vaccine. In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a for a newborn that died from a hepat B vaccine. And um I I said earlier you can't sue the manufacturers. You cannot.
There is a little program though in the federal government where you can bring a claim if you're injured from a vaccine. That's what I'm talking about right now. What about the head baby that died of pet B. Right. It's called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I have like twenty folks in my firm that do that work.
And um, you know, it's not like a regular court. You don't get an Article III judge, Article III of the Constitution, a federal judge. You don't get um any discovery as a right, which is how you prove harms. There's a two hundred fifty thousand dollar statutory cap on pain and suffering and on death. And it doesn't have, you know, uh uh anyways, long story short, it's paid out about five billion dollars for de for damages and so forth from vaccines over the years.
But um um so so I didn't want people to get confused like when I said, well how how d how did this baby get adjudicated? Right. Which got adjudicated in this program. Got it, got it. Yeah. Um so when you have conversations with people and they are the way you used to be and the way I used to be. Yeah. Where you just c sort of just assumed that these the people that are experts in their fields are doing a great job and that's why we're alive. And you start telling'em these things like
Are you a a real problem at a cocktail party? Like do you have you ever Have you ever have you ever had a conversation that just went Completely sideways they started getting angry at you for quoting things. Yeah. They're no different for me. But a lot of folks Um they uh uh th there's two things. First, for some like medical professionals
A lot of them seem to derive a lot of their self schema almost. The the their value, their worth from these products. They saved humanity. How could you question that we are the saviors, right? In some respects almost like supplanting God. Right? What's the only thing that will save us during COVID? Was it God? No. Vaccines, that's the only thing. And then for others, they think that they know.
Okay? But they don't know intellectually. They've never looked at the primary sources. So when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from? The intellect? No. They draw from their emotions, they draw from their feelings, and that's why they get angry. I get that all I do get that all the I get that all the time. But I also often get folks who are just curious and interested to listen. Well, I think there's more of those now than there's ever been.
Abs absolutely. I think COVID in that respect uh forced the conversation. You had uh millions of people who were listening to basic stuff that ten years ago when I started doing this work. Nobody talked about what is a placebo, what's a clinical trial, what's this stuff. Like this became or even the idea that a vaccine can cause a harm was ev just that notion. was totally taboo seven years ago. Right. No more. Yeah, um I think you're entirely correct. And also credit to you to you
'Cause YouTube doesn't suppress this stuff anymore, which is why I found dozens of interviews with you on YouTube. I mean, before I had I mean I'd seen some of your stuff on social media, but then, you know, I've I've watched a a bunch of your stuff. on YouTube. Whereas during the pandemic everything you said you would have got removed. I was removed. Everything I said was removed. I'll tell you the first thing that ever posted that got said it was on at it was on Twitter.
Yeah, the old player. So we brought this lawsuit against the FDA to get all the documents they relied upon to license Pfizer's COVID nineteen vaccine, okay? Yeah. They s they licensed it in forty two days and we said, all right, if we could forty two days, give us all the documents, right? And they want it forever. They wanted to produce at a rate of a few hundred pages a month, which would have taken hundreds of years. Got a trancha those dots.
Took some of them, literally took one of the documents and posted it, and my tweet was just literally quoting from the document, effectively, and that was taken down as misinformation. Pfizer's own document submitted to the FDA. One of the first things that that was just That was mind jarring. It was stunning. It was stunning to watch people not be outraged too.
when information was getting out about different people that were silenced, Jay Bodichary and all the all those different people that were getting attacked, Martin Koldorf. It it was stunning. How no one was going, Hey, what is going on here? This seems really weird that you're removing posts from guys from MIT and Stanford.
and and banning their accounts. Like that's fucking crazy. And until Elon purchased Twitter, we really didn't know the extent of it. We didn't really We really weren't aware if that it was government involvement. Uh they were stepping in to remove and remove malinformation. That was my favorite. Disinformation, malinformation, all the information. Mal's the best because it's true information that might cause problems.
Fucking almost everything. As soon as you have a problem with malinformation, like you are encouraging the creepiest kind of group think that's available and no one freaked out. Well, a few people freaked out, but not enough. It w wasn't
it should have been bipartisan. It should have been a bipartisan freak out. It should have been left and right, but it got politicized in this really stupid way where people on the left were pro vaccine and pro pharmaceutical drug company and pro narrative and people on the right were like, I'm gonna take my chance. And those were the kooks. And you know, it was this like ideological battle as much as it was a public health crisis.
Censorship was bad. It was very bad. Real bad. But I'll tell you what made me think people were gonna go into the street with pitchforks. was when the government told everybody stay at home. That wasn't hidden. That wasn't behind the scenes the stuff you're talking about. They said Stay in your house. They didn't say we recommend you stay in your houses. Right. They didn't say we recommend you get this vaccine. We don't recommend you wear this mask. They said
Stay in your house. When the the when they had that first order came down, I was like people are just gonna be outraged. People are going to protest. And when they didn't, that's what dismayed me personally, and I'll tell you why. Okay, because when you think about civil and individual rights, First Amendment, the right to free speech, the assembly right, that was passed and adopted by the states in seventeen ninety one.
What's the First Amendment intended to do? It's restrict government from infringing on those rights. You think life was easy in seventeen ninety one? What do you think life was like in seventeen ninety one? You think it was easy? You think it was all honky dory? Life in s seventeen ninety one was brutal. Brutal. You wanna talk about disease? Pestilence?
Famine, war you wanna talk about a a life that is no electricity, no running water, no sewage, nothing. And th that amendment was passed for times that are more brutal than that. And here comes a virus. And every right you have is basically taken away. And Americans were like. Take it. Take it away. That is what outraged me because look.
What was the whole point of this country? What what what is America born out of, in my view? It's born out of the uh the idea that every other government that preceded it got it wrong in the following sense. Your life should not be dictated by a king or a dictator or a a a Politburo or a central authority. It's the idea that you are born with an inalienable right.
You should be able to choose your destiny, including what risks you want to take. Individual rights come with risks. Letting Joe Rogan say what he wants on this podcast comes with risks. Letting you practice what religion you want, assemble with who you want, especially in Austin. Very interesting time yesterday. That comes with risks, let me tell you. A lot of risks, okay?
But the greater risk is always ceding that right to the government,'cause once you do you don't get it back often. And so yes, there was that hidden stuff you talk about and that's not that was bad. Don't get me wrong, that was bad stuff. That was really, really bad.
But but the stuff they did in the open to me in some ways was was even worse and I hope that there's a lesson that folks learn from that because let me tell you something. Even if you love every vaccine out there, you listen to this, you love every vaccine. You love every mass.
Right? Great. I I support every American's right. You're seventeen, you're eighteen, you're totally healthy, no comorbidities and you want to get a vaccine a day, wear seventy masks and live in your basement in a self imposed day at home order. This America, I'm I support your right to do I'll fight for your right to do that. And you're ninety and you're a war veteran and you wanna go to the c and you have sixteen core morbidities and you wanna go to the coffee shop.
With no vaccine and no mask, you should be free to do that because that's America too. That's freedom also. Just like you can bull rod. And if you don't stand up for that right now. The day comes when there's something, a medical product you don't want, the government says you have to get because trust me, it is so much cheaper.
to lobby to get a pr medical product required than it is to market to get people to get it. Oh, they've learned that lesson. That's why there's so much lobbying, to get mandates, get rid of exemptions across the country. that you don't want and you can't get a job and you can't go to school and you can't leave your house, then what good are the rest of your rights?
They're useless. That's why medical liberty truly is a fundamental right. No, it's a great high horse. That was an awesome rant. You're absolutely a hundred percent on the money. And uh it's that's It's such an important thing to to get out there, to to get people to understand that you c y uh uh the it's such a natural human inclination to when you're in a per a place of power, of control, any form of government, you want more control.
And it's just natural. And what you were talking about when you lose right you very rarely get'em back. That was so on display in California with the COVID regulations.'Cause they uh had everybody locked down way past where they had to. A friend of mine's brother worked in one of the COVID m some government office when they were considering the closing of outdoor time.
And he brought up but it's n there's no transmission related to outdoor dining. And the the woman who was in charge said, Yes, but it's all about the opposite. So she was willing to, with a wave of her magic wand, shut down outdoor dining for a bunch of small family businesses that were probably barely staying alive after COVID. Barely. We lost somewhere around seventy percent of Los Angeles restaurants went under during COVID. That's fucking bananas. And so they finally get outdoor dining.
Like okay, we could d we could kinda pay the bills this month and then they shut down outdoor dining for optic. So this this this kind of desire to just put a foot down, control people, keep a boot on their neck, it's normal. Even if it doesn't make sense. Everybody knows that from high school. Everybody knows that from I mean the Stanford prison experiments. People like to control people.
They enjoy it. And when they get a place like becoming the mayor or becoming the governor and being able to tell people, Oh, you gotta listen to me. I've got rule. Everyone stay inside, be scared. Th fucking California, uh Garcetti literally had a campaign that said snitches get rewards. Snitches. Snitching on people. Having more than one person over your house. Standing too close in the backyard. You get money. You get money for ratting out your neighbor.
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They have s taken a position and then to admit they're wrong, often what government ends up saying is, Oh well we'll we're this If we admit we're wrong about this, that's gonna hurt our ability to influence the public and that's more important than admitting we're wrong on this or correcting course. Because our legitimacy, our ability to influence the public is so important
We have to, you know, we can't admit we're wrong. That's what what Bobby's doing right now with some of these things is, you know, is some of the stuff like you the new autism page on on the C D C website for example. Is uh i is contrary to anything I've ever seen come out of the federal health authorities to date. But yes, it's it's disturbing and it's why.
Government should n no public health authority should ever be able to tell you and infringe on your rights. They should be able to recommend, recommend the law. Recommend like crazy. Right. But never do it because That is the normal course of how tyranny, dictators, bullies, thugs operate. First they tell you what to do. You don't listen, apply a little pressure. You don't listen, then they mandate. Still don't listen, they censor you.
Still, take away more of your rights. That is the normal progression throughout history, and we saw it happen in front of our eyes, which is why it's it should be a line in the sand. Federal health authorities, state health authorities should be able to recommend and encourage the Never mandate ever. Fauci literally expressed it that way. I'm sure you've heard that recording of him said once people Yeah.
Like he's he's essentially telling them you're gonna make people's life hell and they'll do what you want them to do. Not they will have free will, they will have the ability to choose.
No, no, no. You will make them do what you want. Yeah. Who wants a government that persuades you on the merits? Forget that. But imagine that that's that is something that someone said out loud. But but but but But that... I don't think that what Fauci was saying is anything uh Fauci everything in my view that you saw during COVID is not like some giant leap
um into some new a territory. To me, it's just another natural step in progression from where we've gone over the last forty years with vaccines. Uh Fauci is saying that is no different than school mandates right now for to get children. M most states have forty-five states have basically checked the box exemption to to send your kids to school. There's about five that don't. They're trying to eliminate exemptions, right? Um Clearly they're able to persuade most parents on the merit.
But yet they they can't take it. They can't take that a two, three, four percent just will not take these products. And I and I you know, and I'll tell you by the way most of these folks are. They're the folks who really need the exemptions because Um, you know, most people who don't choose to take childhood vaccines, they don't typically just wake up and decide to do that for fun. Not many people wake up one day and go, you know what I'm gonna do today? Yeah.
I'm gonna take a socially ostracizing position that might get my kids kicked out of school, me thrown out of my job, my friends call me an anti-this, an anti-that. Um, you know, uh you name it, all the horribles that come with not vaccinating. No, most people don't vaccinate them.
don't vaccinate because they've had a very, very personal or or or or negative experience with these products, they or one of their kids or one of their family members, or they've learned stuff they cannot unlearn about them. Okay? They have a usually a very good reason not to. And yet, um, as you saw during COVID, th it's not about in many respects to the examples you gave. It's about they cannot stand that somebody is not agreeing with their beliefs.
They cannot extend the exceptions. Those who stand up say, No, I've come to a different medical conclusion. They they can't let that exist. Right. That that is what it is. It it it and it happens. uh for people regardless of their religious status It's a weird thing. It's like it is like a religion. I mean which is why I'm so glad you wrote your book that way because I think there's these natural patterns of groupthink and of Just compliance. that people automatically fall in
It's very easy. That's why people can get people to join cults. That's why people e are a part of like weird Christian sects. Like, wait, what do you guys do? Huh? You're like who who's the guy? Who's the head guy? This guy? And he gets to marry everybody? What? Okay.
Well that well that's what happened. It's normal. It's a normal thing. And if you scale it outward, it goes to a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that people just have these like climate change is a really Like there's certain people that if you confront them with like r the the the actual The ones that are willing to c question the narrative that are legitimate client scient scientists, they'll tell you like
It is so complicated to figure out what is causing the changes in the Earth's climate, warmth and cold, and the fact that it's never been static, ever, in human history, never before humans, never millions of years. Done this crazy thing. It involves the procession of the equinoxes and the fucking polar vortex and it's a lot of and then also stuff we burn.
That too. But like what percentage is what? And what but it doesn't matter. You can't have that conversation. It's like you questioning, you know, wha whatever messiah this person believes in. They'll just lock down. And Climate change is this no not one climate change prediction of doom has been accurate. Not one. Not even in the ballpark. You remember the The fucking Al Gore movie? Yeah. We're supposed to be dead.
Meanwhile they're all buying fucking ocean front houses in in Maui. You know, get outta here. Shut the fuck up. This is another thing. This is another thing. Like, yeah, we shouldn't pollute. Yeah. We shouldn't release particulates in the atmosphere. Yeah. We should have clean energy. Yeah. But also you guys are crooks. You guys are a bunch of crooks that are making money off of this idea that you're forcing down everybody's throat that everybody's got a Green New Deal and
Everybody's gotta do renewable this and renewable and then who's got money invested in all this stuff? A bunch of people who are pushing it. And it's a fucking scam. Just like so many of these things are fucking scams. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the damage that we're doing to the earth. We should probably stop over fishing the ocean. We should probably stop dumping shit into the rivers. A hundred percent. You know who used to go to court for that?
Bobby Kennedy. RFK Jr. He fucking cranks. The guy who is like cleaning up the East River. That's Bobby Kennedy Jr. Yeah. He was the guy. And and an easy way to identify that somebody is not really coming at you with science and they're coming at you with belief, religion is exactly what you just said, which is They're not willing to debate. They're not willing to discuss it. They're not willing to engage because
That is antithetical to the scientific method. The whole idea is it's never settled. The whole idea is you push the fringes, you push new theories, you push new ideas. Where would science be if you said this is it? Of course. That is the whole notion of it. Dispassionately.
looking at it over and over and over and seeing what more you can learn. And the moment somebody says, no, we need to stop, you can't discuss, you can't debate that, that's when you know you're dealing with a religion, not science. And when I've talked to certain scientists in different fields
that uh feel very constricted by the academic environment, one of the things that they point to is that the groupthink involved in that is just like the groupthink involved in everything and left wing politics, whatever it is, just figure out whatever it is, right wing politics. Groupthink in academia is also higher it's hierarchical. There's there's tiers.
And you gotta agree with everybody that's above you. You wanna get tenure, you wanna progress, you wanna get grants. It's gotta be you guys gotta be in line on all this shit. And he's like, and anybody thinks out of the box is ruthlessly a And even when they turn out to be correct, no one apologized. No, they they are reluctantly agree that the person was initially correct, but they'll destroy their career if they can. He's like the the pissing matches are horrifying and these are the people
That are in charge of telling you what's real in the world. They're just like everybody else. They're they're they have ego and there's a fucking social scramble going on at all times and people are playing succession and Game of Thrones. It's like It's the reality is not what you're being told in the news. What you're being told in the news is a narrative.
And when the news has a giant chunk of their money for advertising that's paid by pharmaceutical drug companies and they never criticize me like this is wild. Like this is wild that this this is America in twenty twenty-six and the only where you can find out what's kind of real is on the internet. Uh y yes. And uh also um when it comes to censorship
If I said some totally crazy stupid thing about you that was totally untrue, you'd like to ignore it. If I said about government, they ignore it. When do they send They censor when it's true'cause that's when they're scared. Right. If you start talking about the government being lizard people, nobody's gonna Nobody cares. Nobody comes for you. They're all shapeshifters, nobody cares. But when you start talking about something that's true, that's when it hurts.
That's when they that's what they need to suppress. You think they need to suppress stuff about um I don't know, a certain island with d that where if it's not true? No. But if it is true, that's when it gets scary and that's when you need suppression. Right. Uh and also I'll note I went to Berkeley philosophy.
So I I'm I'm familiar with a little bit of what you're just talking about. Yeah. And that experience too. It was too even though it was over two decades ago. It was going strong back then. It was going strong back then, but it I feel like it was much more reasonable. Like I used to love San Francisco
It was a it was a great town to visit. They were smart, they were cool, they were laid back, people like to drink, but they were fun. Ver they they always seemed like a smarter LA that got out of show business. San Francisco, Berkeley, University were two different things. I completely agree. And even in I mean, if let's throw outside the bubble of Berkeley from twenty years ago, look back over twenty twenty years ago, who was fighting for civil individual rights? It was the less.
ACLU, think about Skokie, Illinois, right? Fighting for the neo-Nazis to be able to march through a Jewish town to say what they want. Who fought that case? Who protected their right to say that? Democrat, ACLU, liberal lawyers and liberal judges, and they said protecting their right to say the things they're saying as despicable, as horrible as we might find it, protects all our right to free speech. Could you imagine those same folks today?
Bringing that case and deciding that way? No way. No way. And what's stunning is that if you asked anybody alive then if you had ultimate access to information, literally you could pick up your phone And ask it any question about anything and get information instantaneously, would people be more or less informed?
You would say well certainly they'll be more informed, so there'll be more understanding of the value of free speech and they'll know more about that ruling and what a brave stance they took to allow the KKK to march and How it just shows intellectual superiority. The way to beat a bad idea is not to silence it, is to argue it with a much better idea. That you would think by twenty twenty six well they'll they'll be way better. This'll be a super advanced society of flying cars.
No. No. No. It's um more ideologically captured, more wrapped up in the algorithm, which I think is probably At least fifty percent fake. Fifty percent is uh a bunch of bots to eating a bunch of shit that's you know, they don't even believe. They're just trying to rile people up and stir people up and and f push certain narratives. And then people are locked into it twelve hours a day, so they're really crazy and no one's
considering things like the import well, you let's go back to old cases and let's look at why they did that. And let's look, no, no, no. Everybody's like captured with whatever the fuck is on TikTok today. What's the latest stupid thing you're supposed to be paying attention to? And the fact that now we're Right.
It it social media and the scrolling through those videos, which is what you're describing I think, is so troubling. Um be first of all my understanding is that they just show you stuff that confirms what you already believe because that's what you want to see. You want to see the things that you already agree with. So you just get this incredible confirmation bias that happens which is antithetical to to to thinking critically, to really opening your mind to it. And then you end up
you know, uh without'cause without actually understanding both sides of an argument, without really understanding it. I mean look, I understand the stuff about vaccines that I know which ones stop transmission and I know which ones don't. Right. And I don't have to live in the world of believing, for example, they all do.
I know how much death there was before each vaccine and I know uh so I don't have to say, didn't ever save any life and I don't have to say millions would die. I just the data's the data.
Right? And and but you're not if all you're getting is one viewpoint all the time, you're not you get this terrible confirmation bias. And did you see this recent study that I I didn't I just read the um the the abstract so I didn't delve into it but Apparently watching social media uh reduces your IQ over time, you know, just doing all of that scrolling.
That's really scary when you think about our current generation. Imagine if it could make you smarter. How many more people would be interested in doing it? Right. Ten point jump in IQ. You know my wife calls our Wi Fi at our house? She find the Wi-Fi, it's called Read a Book. That's funny. Uh and then you hear things like you shouldn't have Wi-Fi in your house because all the signals flying around are bad for you.
Like how bad? Are you sure? Like what is that like how long have we been doing the Wi Fi thing? A decade, two decades, three decades? I mean on the course of of the length of humanity that's not very long. I mean look I I hope Wi Fi is not killing us. I really do. It's so convenient. Most things that will just kill you get identified. Right. It's not the things that kill you immediately that are a problem typically. Right. They killed you and so you know. It's the things that that cause
Slow issues, uh ongoing issues. I mean we know folks who work on high power lines have higher, far higher rates of cancer. Study after study reflects that. I mean I mean and look so uh iPods bad for you. You know what I mean? If AirPods are bad in your ears, imagine being next to those power lines. What does that do to you?
I don't want to go to down this rabbit hole because it's not my my area per se, but for the whole length of humanity, right, when you think of the of of of the the spectrum, right, we were pretty much only exposed to natural light, which is a very narrow light, narrow band Spectrum, okay? When you think of waves, you can see that.
So as you go down on the left side of the spectrum the waves get longer, like AM waves really long, FM waves, microwaves, natural light, and then above that you get X rays, cosmic rays, and then anything above natural light they say, oh it's really bad. That's just gonna mess you up. And stuff below natural light, they they say, well, as long as it doesn't heat up your cells, that's typically the standard our government uses, it's safe. So as long as it's not heating your cell.
But that's not that's a very old standard, but it's still the one in effect today. So um in any event, when you think about microwaves, they said stay away from even those below natural light. There's um you know Uh what is the cumulative effect of being if you put your Wi Fi around under your bed every night your whole life, what is the effect? There are numerous studies that show that it does have certain effects.
But I I anyway, it's not worth going down that road. But yeah. But it might just be minor or it might be cumulative, right? Yeah, and then how about cell phone signals? You can't even stop those. They're around you all the time. Yeah. I mean if you can FaceTime someone in New Zealand right now from your phone, clearly something's going on in the air. Every environmental insult has the potential to cause some kind of dysregulation in your body, whether it's microplastics, what
You name it, okay? And the precautionary principle would indicate that until you know it's safe, the onus is on those who want to expose you to it to prove to you it is, right? It shouldn't be the other way around. I don't think anybody has to prove to you that Wi Fi is not safe to say, you know what, based on the precautionary principle, I'm just gonna turn off the Wi Fi every night in my house because I don't know. Like that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Because humans have been explosive forever. I've not seen the studies that validate that it doesn't cause an issue or or or large robust studies. And so, you know, it i but obviously uh I think what I just said might some people might hear and go, Well that's not.
W i I why would it be crazy? If we we found out that there's a particular frequency that's bad for your memory or bad for your brain and that we're using it to broadcast something. That that completely makes sense. Yeah, except that I I never think about harms the way you just said it because that would indicate that we have to find out what harms it causes. Right. I to me, when I go into a car dealership, for example.
I walk in and and and and the and the salesman says, All right, this car, okay? And I say, Well, is it safe? And the car dealer says to me, Prove to me it's not safe. And I said, Well and I said, Well what what do you what do you what do you mean? I well if you can't prove it, you gotta take this car. By the way, that's how vaccines work. That's how I lie and that is the that is become a little bit of the
Depending on the mostly for vaccines, but a little bit for some of these other products where it's like you gotta prove it's not safe. No, I don't have to prove it's not safe. I'm not buying this car. You proved to me it's no. You proved to me this vaccine causes harm or you better take it. Uh
That's the way it's approached. It's a little bit like that with Wi Fi and with all with with five G and the LTE and all that stuff. It's almost like you proved to me that doing this all day is gonna cause brain cancer or else you're a kook. Uh no, why don't you show me the study shows it doesn't do that? That's the way it should work with products and product safety.
Yeah, again, I I don't know. I'm I'm not saying that it does. But what I'm saying is there's been things that human beings did and they found it was really bad for you. We've talked about it a few times, but those ladies they used to text uh test the X ray machines with their hands. And um no one told them no one told them that X rays can give you cancer and fuck you up and these poor ladies every day when they would show up at the medical office they would put their hand
And then you see their hands next to each other and it's horrifying. Like they got horrible lesions on their hands and it's like it's really creepy. They x rayed pregnant women until the seventies. They until the seventies there were x-raying pregnant women. Not with the x-rays of today that are far less radiation exposure, the x-rays of the seventies, which is a lot. They gave the I believe the Nobel Prize. I this I'm not I'm pretty sure about this for the Lobat.
Yeah. I'm not mistaken. I think they did. I think they're right. I think they did. Find that out. Jamie, put the put that into our sponsor perplexity. The Nobel Prize, Peter Berg told me about the origin. And I was like, wait, what? It was a guy who made dynamite. And there was a false story about his death, and in the newspaper it's they called him the merchant of death. And he realized it and he was like, Oh shit, I gotta change my PR.
I gotta change my image. And so he came up with the Nobel Prize. He started awarding this prestigious prize. And then instead of him being connected with blowing people up with dynamite. He became connected with uh the most prestigious prize and all of s medicine and all of Government and the peace? The warp Nobel Peace Prize. It's pretty crazy.
It's amazing when you have money how you can influence the world to think certain things about in his instance him. Yeah. In others certain products. Exactly. Absolutely. It's but it what's really stunning is you're also allowed to influence The people that actually deliver the news. Which is, you know, that's the crazy one. Like Callie Means talked about that.
They're advertising not because they want to sell their products with the advertisement that they're putting on the air. But they're also ensuring that this steady stream of revenue that's going to these networks, they won't be opening up and Lines of ink investigation t into the vaccine injuries. Like that's not gonna happen. You're not gonna see a giant CNN piece about COVID nineteen vaccine injuries. It's not happening.
You're not you're not gonna hear much about anything. It it's gonna be it has to be a big fucking story where they have to say it, well they just mention a judgment real quick and then move on. Moving on. The Rasmus poll, uh I don't know if you remember this one, found that I believe one in four and I'm not I think that's right, but I'm not sure a hundred percent people said they believed they knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine. Or knew somebody that died of COVID.
When you have that many people with that with with that lived experience And yet the mainstream media, as you just said, was still able to continue to push the narrative around COVID vaccines the way they did. Um wow. Nobel Prize related lobotomy refers to nineteen forty nine Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine awarded to Antonio Agas Moniz, a Portuguese neurologist for developing the prefrontal lobotomy. I believe that continued until the 60s, by the way.
Yeah, imagine that he got that prize in forty nine. They were like good job. Meaning the medical profession as it stood in the sixties when the measles vaccine was rolling out, we're still doing this by the way. Was it sixty seven? Lu leucotomy, which was slightly different than what became known as the lobotomy, which we know as like the ice pick method. It's it also called the leucotomy. So that was uh This the Freeman. Something strange. For he did like he did a ton of
Country. Unfortunately today you don't need a lobotomy apparently to have a lobotomy. Just to spend a lot of time on social media and get your information from certain places and it's so bad for it. It's just hard hard to recommend a certain amount of It's like how much uh twin. I don't mind if you eat Twinkies, but if you're eating Twinkies all day long, you're gonna be fucked up, man. And that's how I feel about like social media.
But I do think it's an important way to distribute uh information. It's if you're a w a whistle say if you're working for some corporation and y you know something fucked up is going on and and you could put it up on Twitter and with with st details and facts and and people could look into it and you can open up a line of uh reporters and investigative journalists that are gonna find this, expose it. And you could really break a story that is like good for everybody. Like th having
A way to communicate ideas like that is fantastic. Everything else? Like all the arguing, all the shit that people do back and forth, you're just rotting your brain out. And we're all guilty. Well look if you're on it. I mean during the covet pandemic w when all of these government overreaches were occurring, but for the existence of social media you know, podcasts like yours and other alternative platforms, right?
the information in many respects wouldn't have come out if you didn't have Peter McCullough on, Robert Malone on. Um and if Fox and some just that little portion of the I guess more traditional media sphere wasn't willing for a time period To have folks on, I mean And listen, trust me, when I was started doing m vaccine related work a decade ago, n I never thought a single outlet, whether it's Fox or CNN, would ever have me on. Right. And they had me on numerous times until
You know, vaccines kind of like, all right, let's not touch that again. Was this during this was during the Biden administration then? And I think part of that was because it was a point of contention between the right and the left, right? It was the right opposing the um draconian measures that the left who is in power and we gotta get the right back in power because we're we're all about freedom. Yeah, so I think there was a little bit of that going on there, right?
Uh for sure there was some of that going on as you pointed out, I believe in the past, um, when Trump was promoting the vaccine. We're not taking that vaccine. And in the moment Biden was like, We're taking the vaccine. Cobb Harris was saying it. Why would you trust him and whatever his vaccine is like? That is so crazy. These people are fake.
I mean if Trump came out tomorrow and said everybody should get every vaccine out there, I you know, see what would happen. I don't know. Maybe the folks would would stop saking it. They put a band to it immediately. Yeah, it's um it's weird. It's weird to watch. Weird to watch us uh so divided and at each other's throats. And uh I really do think that a j a giant percentage of the uptick I don't think people are designed to be a good idea.
I just thank God Elon bought Twitter because if he didn't, we would not have the the kind of access to the the actual truth, the real data. It would all be suppressed. You would never find out.
How would you know about these studies? No one's gonna t you're not gonna go scouring through journals. And even if you do, what are you gonna do? You gonna get on Rumble and talk about it? That's probably the only way you can. And if anybody from Rumble tries to share that on a Twitter, they'll get banned. So it's like we were in a s we were in a real pickle.
It was a bad spot. Yeah. And it was just a few years ago. Yeah. Which is nuts. We could've gone a very different direction and I use an analogy when they remember the airlines th you know, because C D C required masks on planes. Yeah. When that got struck down by the courts, okay. Um a number of airlines said we're gonna keep our mass mandate. I don't know if you remember that.
You know, they proudly came out. The CO said, We're gonna keep it. Half of them said they were gonna keep it. The other half immediately lifted the mass mandate on planes.
And those that decided to keep it, they dropped it within a day or two, I think, or something like that, really rapidly because economically they were losing business. Right. And I think i that that changed the central gravity on that issue. I think Elon buying Twitter Um basically sent changes center of gravity on censorship, whereby without that, they might have all just kept going even in the worse direction and they saw they were losing market share to X.
Once he bought it and he didn't have censorship, I think that conformed their conduct. Well it was also it was indicative of how people actually felt versus what was suppressed. When you realize that there's well f he have you ever seen like how people identifying as non binary and trans dropped off like like sh right after purchase of Twitter? It's'cause people got a chance to talk about it.
And you can criticize it and people could put up memes and they can call it a mental illness again. And then all of a sudden everybody is like, Hey, what are we what are we supporting? Men with penises in the women's room? Like Did we get hypnotized? Like what the fuck happened? And now you're seeing even prestigious mainstream media publications talking about the dangers of gender transition for young kids.
Okay, so what happened? What happened? What happened was Elon bought Twitter and people were out to actually accurately gauge what people were willing to tolerate and what they actually want versus what's being shoved down everybody's throat. with censorship and with mainstream media narratives. They just keep piping back and forth, pretending everybody agrees with them.
That's one piece of it. They are also, by the way, a lot of the hospitals and doctors are getting sued. Right. Very good. And right on this. In fact, you know, we've Especially after that first ruling. Right. We have you know um. Well there is a matters which include suicide and hiding it from parents. Um school districts high I mean it's really troubling stuff. Do you have children?
I do too. And one of the things you realize if you have children is that they are very malleable and they want to fit in and they are subject to social And that social contagion can be dressing up golf. It could be like whatever it is. Like they're wanna fit in and they're experimenting. They're kids.
And if you just decide, oh, you're a boy and then you bring the bo that kid to it and you're giving him all this positive attention and uh you're giving him all this positive feedback and then you go to school, I'm trans now and everyone says you're brave, like for awkward kids That is absolutely enticing.
And not only that, they do it in clusters. Like Abigail Schreier has written about this, that this is a lot of these girls have autism and a lot of these girls they're socially awkward and they're very uncomfortable with their body and they're going through puberty which kind of freaks them out already. freaks out any girl. Yeah. And then something comes along like this and now you've been taken to a doctor and had your breasts removed and you're fifteen. That's fucking crazy.
And to say anything in opposition to that Somehow became you're a big Or you're a Nazi or you're transphobic. This is crazy talk. Like you're talking about very malleable children doing something you can't even get a fucking tattoo if you're fifteen. Why can you get your breasts removed? Das ist nicht...
Unfortunately it became a very big business. The number of centers in America that performed these surgeries exploded. And so with that explosion, you need clients. Every like every business it needs to feed Right. That business model, right? And so um That is so evil. It's so creepy to think that people are willing to talk people into that just for money. But They've done it with so many other things. It's it's not it's not impossible to believe that it's true.
It's scary. A lot of times if you follow the money trail you can see how things develop and where they go. It often helps, you know, puts in perspective. Look, pe uh rare is the person that says, I'm evil, I'm bad. I mean people find a way to justify things. They find a way to excuse them.
And you know, find you know, the well I'm doing more good than bad, uh you know justification in their minds. Or there's the diffusion of responsibility that comes with being a part of a corporation that's doing something. Hey look, I'm just an accountant or hey, I'm just an engineer, or hey uh you know. I'm doing I'm not I w I don't want the company to move in this direction. However I do own stocks.
Oh, as it goes up. Especially especially in public traded companies, which brings us back to the very beginning of this which is, you know, that that is what happens in those corporations. Should that be a thing? Well like if you could redo the if you had a magic wand and you could completely redo the economy, would you have the stock market? Mean isn't it enough that people just buy things, sell things, your company's worth money because it makes money? Isn't that enough?
Why why do we have to complicate it? Why why do we have a stock market? I don't know if the stock market itself is the problem. I mean stocks the whole idea is just to find a uh you know a a a a a more a efficient way for me to sell you shares in my company. That's all it is. But the underlying problem is not the market in my view. It's not the existence of the stock market. It's the government
i interve intervening into the uh n market forces in a way that do not result in a good outcome. Oh and and often that is at the behest of industry. When government So that's the problem. The problem is the corporations have money, they can use that money to influence laws, influence government. I th uh uh th that c that is a significant part of the problem because look, most regulatory agencies
are born out of some crisis when you right? Right. So uh they often start as a great idea, like people wanting to do good, members of our Congress wanting to do good. But then who's got the time, money and inclination to influence that regulatory agency? You? No. Well you do have some money. But you n me? Who? I uh no. It's going to be even with even even with even even wealthy folks don't have it. They don't they're not gonna do it.
The very it's not even the lobbyists per se. It's the very industry they're trying to regulate. They have the money, time, patience, inclination to do that, to create the revolving door, right? Right. Think about like Article one of the Constitution creates Congress, right? First article. And what's its purpose? Primary purpose is to pass laws, right? How many laws are you does it pass, you think, approximately? About two hundred, okay.
Our agencies on the federal gov government, do you know how many regulations which have the same exact weight as law are pa they pass every year? Can I guess? Yeah. Two thousand. It depends on the year, but often more. Really? Yes. Um There's a chart on this that I'm sure it can be pulled up. But uh it's not but it's something to that effect. Depends on the year, but somewhere between let's say a hundred, three hundred, two thousands on the other side.
Who are those folks passing? Are they part of the Article I, the constitutional branch supposed to pass laws that are elected representatives? No. The unelected bureaucrat. Sitting there and y you've name your alphabet agency. that you probably never heard of that pass these regs that the same force of law. And who's really has the again, the time and inclination to influence them?
It's often the very industry. So it starts as a good idea, but unfortunately it ends up being uh what what the l literature calls this is the political science literature, came out of Harvard and Yale and all those places. They don't want to talk about it today. Captive agencies. Okay. That's what they often become. CDC, FDA and very much are to varying degrees depending on w what they're doing, are very much captive agencies when you look closely at it and you understand it.
Um that's true of many other parts of the government. And so Well particularly people don't know a lot of people don't know that haven't g gone down these rabbit holes that a lot of these people it's a revolving door. They leave the FDA and then they go and work for the pharmaceutical drug companies and they make a lot of money.
Yes. Like Julie Gerberding, who is the head of the C D C in the nineties, that oversaw some of the most controversial disputes about what, whose products, Merck's vaccine products. Okay? And then after her you know, she she cleaned all that up, left CDC and went to work for who? Merck.
Making s uh tens of millions of dollars I believe she's made over the time that she's been there. So she did good, she got rewarded. You think if she didn't do good, she wouldn't get rewarded? You don't think other people see that in the Federal Health? Of course they know. They all know.
So it's the golden parachute and everybody strives for it. If you can get that post you can get the top of the food chain over at the C D C guys, see in about five years. Then five years you're thinking about your Lamborghini, you got a yacht and you're Future. It's just it's kooky. Yeah. It's kooky that it's legal. Look, I I don't know if it's as nefarious to that in the minds of of of people in public health. Let's put it that way. Uh since we're talking about public health officials.
I think that there it has a corrupting influence that cannot be detangled from the fact that they're human. It will influence them. There's a precedent that's been set with many people before them. So it's something they look forward to. If you get this job, you will likely get a job like this afterwards. A bunch of people have and so you think about that while you're trying to get that job.
It's part of the motivation is financial reward. Absolutely. Well there was a there's a flip Pfizer executive who was Serendipitously recorded, specifically saying that. Something to it's in my I I have the exchange in my book. It's something to the effect of Well, you know, those who are working at the FDA, you know, or s th you know, they they're eventually gonna, you know, come work for industry so they don't wanna, you know
hurt industry too much and the the person asking the question says, Well you think that's bad? He goes, Yeah, it's bad for America you know, but uh not bad for the companies. That's the problem. That's exactly right. Well this is the thing about having an obligation to your shareholder. Which brings me back to the whole thing.
I know this is kooky thought, but I mean if we never had the stock market in the first place and you didn't have an obligation to your shareholders to consistently make more money every quarter, if people could just like accept the fact that You own this business, this person you make a certain amount of money, everybody's doing great. Like why why have all these people making money just moving stocks around insane amounts of wealth, manipulating systems to crash stocks?
There's there's people that are like in public office that say things that aren't necessarily true, that influence the market, then it turns out they were totally wrong and then you find out that they bet on it and they made a bunch of money in the stock market. This is crazy. This is crazy and it's all true. And it's all it's all legal. Which is So fucking bizarre that in uh
That all this stuff is taking place. All right. Can I put that into three different buckets? I'm going to put it in three different buckets. There's the bucket of making products. Right. There are companies that make products, there are companies that that provide services, including financial services that can be useful.
You need a mortgage if you can buy a house. You can't afford it. So mortgage products are a pr a service that are brought from the financial industry. And then there's I think what you're talking about, which is the part of our economy that is finance i it's just moving money. It's just moving numbers where they've got you know, uh high speed computers that are trying in micro fractions of a second to beat out the other guy.
to basically triage and make money based on that adds no value to our economy. Uh you know, products and services add value. And and to to Tutorial. Everything you see around that we're sitting in right now was made by a company, right? And so, um um and I'm not aware of a that has been more efficient at producing products and services that improve the lives of others than the free market system. With some regulation.
Okay. Socialism doesn't do it. We've seen that in action. Right. Communism does not do it. We've seen that in action. We need to do it right. Dictators neither but so kidding. So So I wouldn't throw out the whole system is what I'm saying. Yeah. I'm saying that that that part of it's good. Now when you break the same thing, you can't The alignment of mark of of economic self-interests of the companies, the market interests.
to whatever it is protect consumers, that's when you have a problem. And that is the idea, or at least they sell it as the idea from a lot of government regulations. Well The govern the company is not on its own going to do what's right in this instance, so we need government to do it. And if government really only stepped in when it was truly needed, it would be a good
You're right. Right. But the system often breaks when they step in when they're not needed, and sometimes when they step in and have the opposite effect. when they're really just protecting the industry at the expense of consumers, which happens too often. Is the benefit of the stock market nonsense. Yes. If instead we just had a free market. w what has the stock market, what has publicly traded companies
What has the ability to own stock and companies and hedge funds and all that stuff? What is that what has that done for innovation and for progress and for creating more products? Do you think it's encouraged more products and encouraged More activity in the economy and we're further ahead than we would have been if no one had invented it?'Cause it seems like it at the very least, it's a weird opening for
people that just move money around and add no value and extract enormous amounts of wealth. So that seems like you got a l a hole in your pipe. Like why are people that aren't even involved? Why do they get to make all the money on this? Like what is going on here? It's a you're doing a weird thing that I don't know if you had to do to achieve the same result that you achieved with a free market capitalist society that doesn't have a stock market.
It just has a bunch of companies making money and everybody doing the stuff they do. Is like is it n a necessity is what I'm asking. Well outside of my air expertise, but definitely outside of mine. Um I I mean I'll give you my musings. Yes, please. So this is just my off the cuff musings and that's something I actually really want to think about more, but So when I think about you know, companies going public. Um it certainly appears to help drive capital to those companies because
hedge f uh um you know venture capital funds a lot of times they're exit strategy. So I'm willing to give you all this I'm a venture capital. I'm willing to give you all this money to start this company. Because I know at the e you know, I'm my goal is three to five years from now it can go public and I, the venture capital fund, can get back X amount of my money. That's my
That's the exit strategy for that investment. Now, if there was no efficient market to to to do that, right, meaning You couldn't just have an a publicly traded market where just easy to sell, sell shit, right, to have this public offering. What would that do to venture capital funds? Well, I g I mean, would they still invest as much? They might. And instead they might just focus on hard money returns. Right. They want companies that really just make money um you know, cash on cash versus this
Immediate bubble of of of equity inflation that happens when you go public because it's now liquid, the ownership. Right. Market caps. I don't know if that answers your question. It's it's far more sophisticated than what I'd answered because you're saying w what what does it contribute to society?
Right, I don't think it contributes anything. It contributes I just answered it so narrowly and said, Well, it might add some it might entice venture capitalists, though I don't know if I don't even know if I what I just said is entirely cor like they might still do it anyway,'cause they'll just might do the best thing now.
What does it add to the side all of it to have liquid I mean, it'd be harder to have like a retirement account than the way you have right now to own stock, right? That would be more difficult to put your money in and buy shares of Coca Cola. Would you prefer for big corporations to be owned by s you know, certain families, or would you rather them be owned by the public?
I think you should be allowed to keep your company in your family if you own it. Well you should be well you Yeah so you certainly can look at the New York Times. The New York Times, the family kept control if I my understanding, again, we're outside of my normal area of expertise, but the the family uh my understanding has the controlling sh uh of uh votes in that company, but it's publicly traded as well in the New York Times. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken.
I know people that have taken their company public and regret it. They're like it's too much shit. And then they're like it wasn't worth it. Uh just for the hassle and the quality of life I'd I would have never done it if I had known this. Like if a bunch of people are making money that aren't contributing, they're just like siphoning money by moving money around all over the place. Like, isn't that leaky money?
Like if you don't really contribute anything, you don't provide any value and yet you're extracting extreme wealth, don't you have a leak in the pipe? It seems like if that money was just being distributed normally, like the buying and selling of goods and services, that would be a much more like honest society, but would it have the same amount of inf in
Uh would would it have the same amount of innovation and would it have the same amount of uh productivity? Or is that productivity not just enhanced by this flood of capital, but also encouraged? So it like stimulates everything. So like having these vampires sucking on the pipe, like ultimately it does move numbers around and it gets more stuff out there and it which also encourages innovation. I don't know.
I mean I I think that there is a gray all right. I think there's a gray area between the second and third bucket. So we we were talking about like products and services, maybe we'll make that one bucket because those can have And then there at the extreme there's like Just like Triage nonsense that happens, you know. I put my supercomputer as close as possible to the you know, the the the supercomputer the stock exchange and so I can like
Like that. That's that's like the and then there's something then there's like that gray zone in between where There's, you know, mortgages good. Okay. Help the Americ American family achieve their dream of owning a home. Now, uh uh mortgage back securities. Ooh, maybe not so good. Mortgage back securities that are double, triple sliced into all these tranches.
Getting worse. Uh going down that road like there's a degree where you're you're getting further and further away from the very point of that financial instrument that was that had goods. So I I think that There is there's a point at which, yeah, no good. Um but but I think we it's hard to talk in generalities in my mind. Like if you have a specific example, let's go down that road. Well Bernie Madoff's the best example.
Right. Obviously everybody had to know something was there was some shenanigans taking place because the returns were too crazy. But look out how many intelligent people invested money with him because he was so successful. My old office in in Manhattan when I used to work at Latham and Watkins was I think three floors above Bernie's office in the Lipstick Building. I was on twenty thirty. Nothing to do with them. Anyways, uh zero. Um okay, but Bernie Pretty just straight up.
Stole. Just stole. I mean that's not that's not even a thing. Come on. He just No no, you're he just made sh he just He just stole money and gave out like fake returns, as far as I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He he had people thinking that they were making all this money and something there. It was just a pyramid scheme basically That was eventually gonna fail. I mean I I don't think you go on for so long. Well, I think it fucked up because of the two thousand eight crisis, right?
They think he could've kept it going if there wasn't the crash. That's an incredible it's an incredible scheme. It's it's amazing that somebody could even pull that off, frankly. It is crazy and it is incredible. But it just shows you that this is a a weird system that you you can pretend to be moving money But it corrected It did. And then did he become the post trial of the United States? Don't do that. He became don't do that. Yeah.
It's just uh it's probably a stupid question because I don't know anything about economics. But I was just thinking that like couldn't we have the same world and not have that, and wouldn't that be more honest and more beneficial? But it would have to have happened from the beginning. It would have to be like there was never publicly traded companies from the beginning. Coca-Cola.
You like Coca Cola? I like a little Diet Coke every now and then when I want some brain fog. All right. I don't want a nice taste in my mouth and an aspartame hangover. Uh n okay. I'll think of another one. Um Chevy. Chevy. Okay. Chevy. So I don't know, with without um without the ability to raise money in liquid capital markets, would Chevy have grown to what Chevy became? Or at least in the in the in the in the speed at which it did that then revolutionized
What a motive in other industries uh probably not. Maybe not. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe not. But it w you wonder like if people were motivated and and people were ambitious and we always have been, you know, like if that wasn't a part of our economy. Yeah. I bet it I bet it has a pretty big impact when you put it that way. You think about something as big as Chevy, you know. But it's just the motivation of money.
is always going to be there. And if people ignore it because it's inconvenient and it doesn't align with their ideology, you've been captured. And this is why I think what you're you're talking about all the time is so hard for people that are true believers to swallow. Because it It makes you have you're forced to reformulate your entire world.
Have you been duped that hard by something like the actual data on vaccine efficacy and you know, who's really profiting and why it's set up the way it is and what the studies really are? W when you realize you've been duped that hard, it's that's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people. Absolutely. But I will say this. You don't need to go down a rabbit hole, okay? Because that happens to a lot of people with vaccines, I've seen.
N not the major not most, but it happens to some where it's like, oh my goodness. If the government's lying or not telling me the truth about these products. Then what can I believe? And I w an and you know, people some folks can go down s some some different alleys. And I would say that I w uh really, truly I've not seen anything like vaccines. Vaccines really are in their own bucket because of that immunity. It's what I call original sin in my book. There really is no product.
No product that I'm aware of that operates in this kind of landscape. Like I said, every other product, the market force will, for the to varying degrees with wrinkles, correct for the issues because there's economic self-interest.
They broke that with vaccines. So we've gone from three shots following the nineteen eight in nineteen eighty six, one before the first year of age, at the beginning of two thousand twenty twenty five, you know how many shots it was that a baby got honor before their first birthday? Take a guess. Seventy two. No, no, no that's that's uh that's her whole childhood. Twenty nine.
Twenty-nine by the first birthday? Yes. Honor before the first birthday. Went from three to twenty-nine shots, including in utero. Now we're di with the recent changes, it's down to nineteen. And the reason I focus on the first year, most of those shots in the first six months of life. is that's when the baby is going through really critical stages of n uh of of um Neurological, immunological development, right? Synapse. I mean, think of how small a baby is, okay?
And so um um they're really susceptible to various effects. Also, babies can't express what what's what's going wrong with them, okay? So now in in the normal course, okay, in the normal course. You've got a product. You've gone from three of them In nineteen eighty six by the first year. You're up to twenty five twenty nine, beginning of twenty twenty five.
Now you're at nineteen still. And during that period you've gone from under ten percent of kids had a chronic health issue in the early nineteen eighties, according to the data. You now have over forty percent, some data show over fifty percent of kids having chronic health issues, often multiple times the rate, okay? And what are those chronic health issues that have exploded? To be sure, by the way, any environmental insult can cause.
dysregulation in the body, okay? Including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines. But when you look at those um chronic diseases that have exploded, almost all of them have an etiology Relating to some form of immune system dysregulation. Look at asthma, look at atopic issues, look at tics, look at ADHD. Nobody thinks about it this way, but if you look at the public literature There's uh immune markers that have gone awry in kids with ADHD. Okay? So you look at that, now I'd say, okay.
The lawyers, those who would hold these companies accountable, would look at that and then they would start looking at the data. And I'll show you some what some of the data shows. We talked about the Amish earlier, for example, okay? The Amish that I represent in New York, um, there's three schools. The New York uh health department decided that it doesn't like what the Amish beliefs are, it wants the Amish to adopt their beliefs.
and abandon the their real religious beliefs and to give their kids these vaccines. Otherwise, they were going to impose crushing fines on these three Amish schools. Three schools, by the way, which means a room, no electricity, a teacher, you know what I mean? On Amish land, they don't take tax money. They pay taxes, but they refuse to take tax money. Taught by Amish teachers.
And so we uh amongst those families of those three schools, there was like a hundred and sixty or something kids. And what we did is we we did a survey. What health conditions do those kids have, those hundred and sixty kids. Many of them already older too. So you would know their health outcome. And this is all in our court papers, it's all in a federal docket. Anybody can go and read it for themselves. Okay? Amongst those children,
You would expect to have because like one in ten kids approximately have asthma, you would expect to have like nine cases of asthma. You'd expect to have six cases of this, five c they have none, zero of the chronic health conditions plaguing kids in America today. And the approximately ten or so studies that have been done.
And I'm gonna bring this back to my legal point. The approximately ten or so studies that have done that compare kids with no exposure, meaning zero vaccines, to kids that have had one or more vaccines, show the same outcome. Kids with zero vaccines, almost none of the chronic health issues that face kids today in America. Kids with one or more vaccines, multiple rates of the chronic health issues facing kids today. Now.
That data all exists. I those I put those studies in my book, anybody could read them. I even put the Amish information in my book. It's all cited. You can go look at it yourself if you're out there. Some of them are even on PubMed. The market could have corrected for that if you could hold those pharma companies accountable, but you can't. Aaron Powell Um Is it correct that the only instances of autism they found in Amish kids were adopted kids?
Um there are data and some reports that reflect that. But if we So there are that. But those are more news reports. Those are not somebody will criticize you by the way. You're gonna get criticism and say, Well, that's not a peer reviewed study. Well I had a a follow up question that maybe clarify. Yeah. Well a and so Uh we can say we can go move on to what does the peer-reviewed literature show if you want. So if they're getting Amish care and Amish teachers and Amish
li is it possible that there are some kids that are just behaving odd that would be diagnosed? Like this is the criticism. Yes. The people say like this is when you hear some mainstream suit Talking on television. Well there was always someone odd when we were kids. You know, there's no they just the diagnosis is different today. That's why it's one in twelve boys in California and they're overdiagnosing. And I'm like no.
No, I I have friends that have I have multiple friends that have nonverbal children. That n I never had that when I was a kid. That was not normal. That was not a common thing. It was very, very, very rare. is um I don't know a better word for it on the say nonsense. Okay. Um uh uh even if you look at the'cause they've changed the DSM five, which is what we're up to the d diagnosticistic manual, that is the
uh s th the psychiatric manual that has the criteria for diagnosing autism, it has changed over time. But when you even just look at severe autism, just severe autism, which California has very good data on. From the seventies and onward and to today it's exploded. Okay. So th th the notion that we just have better diagnosis is is not a serious point. But putting that aside, the Amish do go to doctors. Do they go to Amish doctors? No. Okay.
The Amish for example can even go in a car, they just can't drive a car. But there's different I sh I should be I should be more. Just like every religion, there are different You know? Communities. And so there's like old old line Amish and then there's old line Amish and so you know and
Christianity and c m i Islam and c Judaism and they're all different you know, there's different degrees. So um um uh i in many respects um uh they do still go but You know, as um I was uh told by one of the main folks who I interact with there, and I've been up there and I've slept there and I've interacted with them.
He told me, he said, Yeah, you know, um there are a few that mistake got some vaccines and he goes, one of those kids, they just don't act right. He sell it to me. But we don't see that with our other kids, and I'll tell you this about the Amish community. They don't have phones. Not not not not the not uh, you know, smartphones. Uh th they have old school phones, some of them. They don't have TVs. When they're with their kids, they're with their kids.
When they're there at the end of the day, they really are are so much more tune. When I spent time with them and when I went up there, I mean it's incredible, you know. You we we have lost I I I it's a hard thing to experience, maybe for fuss somebody who keeps like Maybe the closest thing I think of is like those who observe the Sabbath biblically, you know, so they're just they're just totally locked in. They lock in with their families for a day. Or so or things like that.
And so they're very in tune with their kids. They know if those kids have health issues. And those kids don't have those issues. But forget the Amish. Go to the rest of the kids in the other studies that are not Amish studies. The ten other studies that I just told you about, one is three pediatric practices that have vaccinated unvaccinated kids. So w there there there are a whole line of studies of nothing to do with the Amish community.
But if you do wanna focus on autism, okay, which is just one potential issue from vaccines, by the way. Um what you find In the peer reviewed literature is that forty to seventy percent of parents who have a child with autism report, still report. that they believe vaccines cause their child's autism. Okay? Forty seven percent. That's after how much billions of dollars to try to tell them and gaslight them and convince them?
That it's not aut that vaccines don't cause autism. No m apparently no matter how many which you beat these families, they're just not gonna change their lived experience. And what vaccines do they point to? They often they point to the vaccines given in the first six months of life when you ask them what vaccines do you think cause your child's altitude?
They'll say the vaccine's given in the first six months of life, and then they'll also point to MMR vaccine, which is given no earlier than one year of age. Okay? And so on behalf of uh ICANN which is the information action work and nonprofit that our law from represents, we sent a Freedom of Information Act request, FOIA request.
to the CDC and we said, hey, your website says vaccines do not cause autism. Great. Please give us the studies that show that HEP B vaccine, given three times in the first six months of life, do not cause autism. Please give us the studies that show that DTAP vaccine given three times in the first six months of life do not cause autism. Same thing for IPV vaccine, for uh P C V vaccine, and for uh uh um
HIP vaccine. Okay? Each one of those vaccines is given three times each in the first six months of life. Fifteen injects. Okay? Okay. You say vaccines don't cause autism. These parents are saying these vaccines cause their child's autism. provide us the studies. They never gave us the studies. I sued them in federal court and I didn't go to Texas. I sued them in Southern District of New York. Okay. Not the friendliest territory to bring that kind of lawsuit. Okay?
Days before the hearing, I get a a list of twenty studies finally from also from the DOJ,'cause they represent the C D C okay. Maybe they think I don't read. So I looked at the twenty studies. I've read them. Nineteen of them have nothing to do with the vaccines given in the first six months of life. They were all either MMR studies or studies of an ingredient that wasn't in those vaccines. One of them was an Institute of Medicine Review.
From twenty twelve that canvassed all the literature on whether DTAP vaccine does or does not cause autism because the C D C in HERSA, which is the agency in in HHS that fights vaccine injury claims re asked the IOM to look at whether DTAP causes autism because it remained one of the most commonly claimed injuries still, according to them. Okay? And the Institute of Medicine which came back and said we could only find one study on DTAP and autism.
And in fact it showed an association between vaccine DTA vaccine and autism, but the IM threw it out because it said there's no unvaccinated control in it. So they threw out the studies based on Vare's data, if you know. So I called up the DOJ attorney, this is days before the hearing, and I said, I got the list of twenty studies. I said, are you sure that your client, the C D C.
Wants to settle this case basically on the basis that these are the studies they rely upon to claim that vaccines don't cause autism. That the vaccines in the six first six months of life do not cause autism. Because that's what the lawsuit was about, that FOIA. He went, he called me back and he said, Yeah, they want to settle it. I said, All right. Give him another I give him another chance. Those twenty studies were put into a settlement agreement between the C D C and ICANN, my client.
The DOJ signed it on behalf of the CDC. I signed it on behalf of my client. And the federal judge in the Southern District of New York entered it as an order of the court in 2019, I believe it was. And there it was. I mean I I had done years and years of work fighting with them to try and figure out show me the vaccines don't cause autism. This was the crescendo. This was the end. I mean when their back was to the wall, they had They have nothing. There are no studies.
They could not produce one that showed the vaccines given in the first six months of life do not cause autism. And here's the thing they left out. There is one study out there regarding hep B vaccines in autism. It's from Gallagher and Goodman out of the University of Stony Brooks in the peer reviewed literature and it showed that kids that got had B vaccine versus those that did in the first month month of life had three times the rate of autism. Statistically significant. Gallagher Goodman
University of Stonebook, it's on PubMed. That is the only study of HEPE vaccine and autism you will find in the peer reviewed literature. If you're gonna do it based on the science, on the published literature, that's the only one out there. That DTAP vaccine study is the only one out there for DTAP given in the first six months of life. So when this narrative which you hear all the time on these panels on these news shows, vaccines do not cause autism, that has been thoroughly debunked.
Where's that come from? Vaccines amen. But this is what I'm talking about. This is why I wrote the book. That I have litigated hundred, two hundred lawsuits against federal and state health agencies, that I have deposed the world's leading vaccinologists, including Dr. Stanley Plock and you go down the list. uh and chasing them when they're in a deposition
when they are f back is against the wall in a federal or state lawsuit and they have no choice but to admit the truth or give the evidence, put up or shut up. What I have found is that the claims they make about vaccines versus the reality I w had you told me Yeah, they don't have any studies that show vaccines don't cause autism first six months, I'd be like, you're crazy. Get out of here. They tell you it's thoroughly debunked.
Thoroughly studied. The most studied thing ever. They have a mountain of science. Joe, there's a mountain of studies. You know how big it is? It's so big and you know what's on top of that mountain? Another mountain of studies. You know how another mountain. There's so many studies they're drowning in studies that vaccines don't cause autism.
But then when you demand it, not the bull crap that they say on T V, but you actually demand it. That's the result. And that you could pull it up on the internet, by the way, that that that That that that that court stipulation, it's right there. You could also hear me depose Dr. Stanley Plock and the world's leading vaccinologist, where I said to him, I said, Doctor, you know, and you have you this clip's on the internet. I said
There's no studies that support that DTAP does on codism, right? And he's he and at first he said, Well I I said, Well what do you think the IOM concluded? He goes, Well I would assume they said it doesn't. I so I showed it to him. He goes, Oh, this is the world's leading vaccinologist. He didn't even know that.
He goes, Oh, okay, there are no studies. Okay, he goes so I said, shouldn't you wait until you do? Shouldn't you wait until you have the studies that show that DTAP doesn't cause autism to then tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism? You know what he said to me?
No. No, I don't wait. I don't wait because I have to take into account the health of the child, he said. I said, so for that reason, you're willing to tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism, even though you don't have the data to support it. He said, Absolutely. You can play that clip if you want. It's on the internet. Uh and then I deposed in a case about vaccines and autism.
It was about it, doctor Catherine Edwards, who is one of the four I guess leading vaccinologists in the world, one of the four editors of the medical textbooks on vaccine, which is called Plockins Vaccine. I deposed her about vaccines in autism. And I said, Do you have a study that shows head B vaccine doesn't go to autism? This was after this court stipulation, the court order I told you about. She didn't have any for Happy, for Hip for the ones I just took the the first six months of life.
So yes, they say on TV it's thoroughly debunked, but I'm telling you that is a belief that is not science, that is not fact. It is not based on data. It is based on pure belief. And they say it just like they say, you know, Jesus Christ is Lord. I think they believe actually in vaccines more because they'll kick kids out of school in in s in some archdiocese even and in some other Christian schools far less.
Uh most arch dioceses won't if the kid won't get vaccines. So I actually think they believe in vaccines more than Jesus in some places, by the way. What an amazing job of gaslighting and propaganda they've done. But I I just wanna I I just gotta be clear because a anybody here in this might think that that just sounds crazy. But I implore anybody who heard me say that, pull up the court order yourself, look at it yourself, watch the depositions, go to PebMed.
See for yourself, oh, and by the way, do not rely on AI because I've done this fun job with them. I'm like I'm like, do you have B vaccines cause autism? It's been thoroughly d researched and there's no studies. I just go, Okay, great. So how do you and I say to AI, I go,
How do you s reach a scientific conclusion? Well you use peer reviewed studies. I go wonderful. So to deconclate that hep evacine does not cause autism, you need peer reviewed studies. That is correct. Wonderful. Now please please in a list these studies that show hep vaccine does cause autism. Uh give me three studies.
I've had I I've had uh ChatGPT makeup studies. Literally HEPI vaccine does not cause up and I'm like, that doesn't exist. Give me the PubMed number. You are correct. I aim to provide uh a valid information. But in this instance I fell short.
Literally made up a st I'm not joking, made up a study. I've had it and fell short, I lied to you. I done I've done this for fun with friends. And so I'm like, watch this, watch this. And finally I'll get it to admit that the only study is the Gallagher and Goodman study.
That that is the only study I will get it to admit. It takes about often forty five minutes to an hour. Really? Yeah. It takes a while but it will eventually admit it. And they all do it. Grok does it too, by the way. Groc's better, by the way. Better? But it's bad too. And they will s they will say you know, on on all of these questions they will make stuff up.
And unless you know, like I know the universe of studies. I know it's Can I ask you this? Do you think that these uh large language models are programmed? with certain truths that they can't fight against? Or do you think it's because they're pulling from so much bullshit on the internet and so many bullshit narratives on the internet from trusted sources that'll tell you that vaccines don't cause autism. Like there's a ton of And then they'll quote doctors and scientists that don't
List any specific studies, but they'll say we've done exhaustive studies, they've been thoroughly debunked. They'll say that and then they'll print that. So is the Is the AI just pulling from so much bullshit online that it like looks through all the noise and it says like eighty nine percent say vaccines do not cause autism, therefore it must be true? Or is it programmed to say, hey, y this is what you say. Vaccines don't cause all the things.
You must hold me in very high regard. You've you've held me out as an e uh you've you've held me to incredibly complex economic questions. And now language language model questions. I appreciate the compliment so far on that score. With that said, um um
I mean I I I I don't know the answer but I will speculate'cause I don't know the answer. That uh I I'm gonna guess, I'm guess I'm really guessing uh um that it might be a mix of Some programming because Google, for example, I n you know, if you go and you search for Aaron Siri Substack, you get Paul Off at Substack. Why? How in the world do you get Paul off at Substack when you search for mine? And mine's like...
It's not even like on the first page. I don't think it's on the second. Now I I maybe they fixed that, I don't know. So it uh some of that Is that using Google? That's using Google. Let's look right now. Last time I've done it. Let's go to the book. Let's do it right now. Let's do it right now. Let's do it.
Um Robert Epstein's been on my podcast a few times, unfortunately last name. But he has nothing to do with that. He is a data scientist. And one well I don't know what his original background is, but What he does is He is uh very vocal about how they're using these coordinated se it's very curated uh search results.
And through that, especially during uh election times, they can take a lot of people that are in uh undecided voters and swing them a very noticeable number. Like I forget what the number was, but it's a a large percentage, ten percent, twenty percent, something like that. So if you Google something about, say, Hillary Clinton for instance during that first election, you would get all these positive articles. If you Googled Trump, you would get all these negative articles.
And if you, you know, asked it certain things, it would give you things that were completely contrary to that, so you'd look at that first. And I think that's you and Paul off it. It could be a good thing. Maybe it's maybe it's fixed at this point. Aaron series substacks. Yeah, just do Aaron series substack and just do it on Google. But while he's pulling that up, I'll add that i I saw I this might be some of that. Again, I'm on speculation territory. And then separately
So it goes right away it goes right away to me this time. Like if if you ask a question in a word. It's like what is there? That's what I that's what I did. Try Aaron Siri injecting freedom substack, see what happens. Okay, that could be the way we search for it. Different. Well when you add words it kind of really fucks up all Google search.
Yeah, but I don't see Paul Offitt in there. I don't see Paul Offitt in there. Have you talked about this publicly before? No, never. Oh, too bad. No. I just did I just this happened uh this was actually literally just a few days ago. Uh, I think one of the things uh that Robert Epstein because of being he's been on my podcast, been on multiple podcasts, but he's been talking about the dangers of these curated search engines and how
It's essentially election rigging. Like you're you're manipulating a statistically significant number of people to one side or the other, and you can do it by curating certain Well, the experiment we just did might reflect that my first theory is might be less of that, right?'Cause look, there it is, it's happenstance. I I that's why I said I have no idea, I'm speculating. But it could be pre re it could not. It could be
So your own algorithm because maybe you were searching for Paul Offitt. Maybe you had Googled Paul Offitt's full of shit. Just before that. I don't need to Google that. Uh uh that that's not I don't need to. I've had I don't know when they've added this, but they've they definitely added on the screen. Uh uh. Results are personalized. Try without personalization. That could have something like that. Oh you already put Paul Offitt in there?
Okay, okay. So if you do with that person it doesn't delete the prior one. Interesting. Personalized it knows you're a radical. It knows knows you're a radical. But I would I would s I would speculate that the probably bigger component is the Um who's got again it comes back to who's got the money to understand how these AI algorithms work and to maybe put the in stuff out there that it's gonna most likely read from. I mean
When you do AI, you s you can get that I see that like crazy scroll of all the things it's looking at, right? Right. So if I've got if I am a pharma company and I've got a multi billion dollar budget every year to influence and to market and so forth. You know, I'm I'm gonna deploy that in in the way that's probably the most effective. One of the things I probably would do is maybe do the things that would influence the results on AI.
Potentially. Yeah, I would too. Especially if there's no regulation. That's the weird thing about curating search engines. If it's like your search engine, you can kinda do whatever you want. Especially if your company like d wasn't it like one of the major tech companies after Donald Trump won in two thousand sixteen that had a meeting that were like we can't let this happen again. Was that Facebook or Google?
Do you remember Jamie? It was like very famous that people were like, what are you talking about? You why what? How can you say that? How can you even say that? Even if you you're right. Yeah. Like the idea that you can somehow other stop someone from being elected if the public wants that person to be elected because you disagree with it is kind of a crazy thing to say out loud. Well, you know, I'm thinking more about your question.
So when we found that thing with Paul Offitt when we found that thing with Paul Offitt a few days ago, my social media manager, my and my I've got a you know Got a lot of folks at my law firm. Um and we have somebody who does like Google AdWords stuff and and and and SEO stuff. And then we have another guy who does the the web related stuff. Um I know they did some things, and maybe with my little measly budget, it had that effect. And so Matt so if that would go to my second point that
With enough doll and and who cares about my I mean, I don't think pharma cares about my substack. Trust me, they're not scared of my substack. Well, I don't know about that because even if uh you don't have a ton of subscribers, it's still out there. And all it takes is one podcast appearance like this one and people go there. And then all it takes is one investigative reporter to talk about it to get a
It's a weird time for star. Yeah, i they'll they'll never put it back. They'll never put it back. But if you guys did do something about it, that does make sense that they they corrected it. And and you complained about it. Well no, I think that, you know, they had brought up doing like keywords and stuff like that'cause I did there was some emails about I remember f trying to fix it. I'm amazed that it looks like it did.
Well I I don't want that smoke. You know, they don't it just kinda shine. It's the best disinfection, sunlight. Um I I just don't like the idea of curated search engines. It's really spooky. It's it's no different to me than curating information on social media platforms based on whatever your ideology is. Like I don't think you should be able to do In terms of like I don't think the company should be able to tell you you can't see certain things.
And YouTube was terrible about that during the pandemic. All the things that turned out to be true could have got you banned from YouTube. The lab leak theory kick kicked off. You know, the the fact that the vaccines, uh even if you get vaccinated, you're still you still can catch COVID. Remember that was a breakthrough infection?
Extremely rare, extremely rare breakthrough infection. Never heard of it. And now it's everybody. Literally everybody. And then it became this weird Fucking everybody did these weird mental gymnastics where they started repeating oh but it stopped hospitalization and death. Uh uh. And like wha what what are you talking about? You never said that before. You are saying that they were saying it stops hospitalization and death and you don't even have anything to gain here.
You just don't want to be wrong about your decision to get injected and to promote it, which is nuts. It's like people are doing the man's work for the man. They've signed up as volunteers in the propaganda army. and shaming all the people that didn't go along with it and never apologizing. No one wants to apologize. for calling people plague rats.
Telling people that they should have their children taken away from them. Nutty, weird, dystopian shit. They don't realize that they are the they are creating more vaccine hesitancy with that kind of conduct. than anything that you and I could do on this podcast at all. Cause, you know, and like they say bah you know the CDC webpage on vaccines and autism has now been updated and it says now
that there's effectively no studies to show the vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism. It now says that. And that we have mis that the C D C has misled the public on that score and people Trash. The mainstream media trash Bobby for that.
while instead of celebrating it as an opportunity to correct course of transparency. Honestly, people are more likely to trust our federal health agencies when they're honest, when they're apologized, when they're willing to admit mistakes. They don't they're not there yet though, unfortunately. No, because it's it's still a part of their political ideal
And they they don't even think about it, they don't look into it, they don't read any studies, they don't read any synopsis of any studies. They just go full bore ahead. It's been thoroughly debunked and they'll argue with you it's been thoroughly debunked.
Something about the s you know, these studies show that for example, the studies show that children that have had cancer th and measles have l of lower rate of cancers and they'll go, Ah, that's that that's just nonsense. Those studies are just junk. I'll say Have you read the studies? Uh no I've no have you seen'em? No. But see, but they knew already. You know, they've already reached that a priori conclusion. I remember in my deposition not to go back to autism
Doctor Edwards, where I said to her, Um, Do you have any studies that show that B vaccine does not cause autism? She said, No. I said, but there is a study that shows three times rate of autism amongst kids that didn't get HEP vaccine. And she says, Well, I don't think that's that's not a good study. I said, What study is that? She goes
Who why don't you show me the study? And then'cause she hadn't read it. She doesn't know. Why don't you wait to show me the study? That's that because it doesn't fit within the the you know, the belief system unfortunately when it comes to this. And it's so easy'cause like you said, All you gotta do is just say an anti vaxxer and you Exactly. Exactly. And it's all when when the entire when you have a company, like whatever company it is, whether it's Google or Facebook or whatever.
and that company operates on an ideology that's not grounded in reality and then they enforce it across their platform. It g it It's very frustrating and really nutty to watch and just thank God there exists some alternative. You would need a you need a crazy person worth a ton of money, like Elon, to just go and buy it and then also show, hey, it's still the number one platform for distributing information.
Yeah, in the same way that what what Elon did for social media, if he could do that for a search. That'd be great. But I think search is dying. I don't think searching AI is searching. Yes, AI is in the takeover. I don't see I hardly ever search things anymore. Everybody goes to AI these days from what I could see. I I love doing that.
It's good, but it also requires less thinking, so it's bad in that regard. But yes. Well it depends on how you're using it. Well when I'm using it is usually when I'm writing, I'm writing about a certain subject. I'm like, well, who? W who were the first people to discover these Aztec pyramids? You know, I'll I'll get into something like that. Like what were they looking for? Like uh you know what I mean? And like you could it's almost like you're talking to an expert. So instead of
it being like something that I use to think for me. It's like a super smart friend I'm bouncing questions off of. And you could find so much about things so quickly as opposed to having to go through article after article after article and like and that's the one I'm looking for. What did Court how did he trick those people and give'em up their land? There's only fucking six hundred of'em. How'd they do that? You know, like you need to f like AI is fantastic for that.
But if you're using it all day, like a lot of kids in my school um my kids' schools are getting busted for writing papers that are a hundred percent AI. Like they were a moron. It's like PhD genius level paper. Uh yeah. All of a sudden these twelve year olds are fucking wizards.
Yeah. It's hilarious. It's it's not good. I mean you saw the That's not good. You saw those studies that came out. I don't I again not my area, but and I don't know th I've only read the abstracts. I don't I don't know. But that that The the more that technology has been adopted into classrooms, it appears that the more detrimental it has been on actually the the the markers of what you would consider an educated
or education or intelligence. A hundred percent. It's a distraction. It's like it's there's no way it could be good. You're you're on TikTok all day. But if you're using AI, the one thing I will say, depending on the topic, but you probably should do it for all topics is Never just rely on the output. You gotta ask if show me the primary source and look at it yourself. It's so critical in every area. Especially if it's something controversial. I mean generally I'm asking.
questions about something I'm looking up that's not that controversial in terms of like whether or not it's argued. You ever look up yourself? No. No, I know Jesus Christ. I don't look up myself ever. 'Cause I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know people's opinions. I d I don't wanna know what it thinks of me. I couldn't care less.
It's I think it's much better to just keep on going. You're if you're in a public eye, including you now, everyone is subject to an opinion. And there's certain opinions that are just they're not people that you would ever want to talk to. And those kind of people exist. There's gonna be shitty people out there and their opinion written down looks just like your opinion. Better to not have any of it. Better to not watch any videos. Better to not listen to anything.
Be a good internal judge. Be objective about your own self and be self-critical to the point where it's healthy and leave it alone. I was watching like I was talking this the other day, I was watching this lady who was this very boring, not very exciting lady, talking about how bad the Beatles.
And I was like, you should shut the fuck up. Like no the beat the Beatles are incredible. You're just a moron. You're just a dull brained fucking dork just wandering through life spread but you're allowed to. You're allowed to have those opinions. It's like good luck finding a bunch of people that agree with you, but you're allowed to try.
But I don't wanna be a part of it. I don't wanna be washing swimming through bullshit opinions all day long. I don't think it's healthy. Yeah, but I I d I do think facing uh the opinions And the views, substantive opinions, views of those that don't agree with you is an important exercise in life and in any in in in every area, frankly. I mean I I'm you know, uh when it comes to the work that I do and you know, I'm I welcome
having debates with those who claim they are the vaccine experts. I mean I'm well this is a d we're talking about a very different kind of thing than looking up yourself. Yeah. You're looking up hard line data and it's very important what you do because it Crazy to say that being honest in this regard is courageous. But it is courageous because I've seen you attacked. I've seen crazy shit r l that people said about it.
And it's like, Good lord, are you paying attention to what he's actually saying? Or like or are you some bot from somewhere, some fucking bot farm in Vietnam that's been hired to push a narrative? I don't know. But lining up to debate you about this. Uh well Paul Offort and I had an exchange on the internet. Uh first we had it on Twitter. In person? In Twitter no, he won't do it. So we had it on Twitter. And then he moved it onto Substack and it's all there. It's a great exchange.
And and not just to be clear, not like a gotcha debate. I've offered him to have a debate where we each get ten minutes, ten minutes, ten minutes, and we each get to present the evidence. So we have a a screen, we can put up our evidence and we can go back and forth.
with equal amount of time so nobody's talking over each other. It's civil and it's based on the substance. I've offered him to do that. But the truth is I don't need to debate him. I've already debated the world's reading vaccinologist, Dr. Stanley Ploch in a nine hour deposition. people talk about you want we should have a vaccine d debate. Well I've done that. It's nine hours, it's all on internet and you can watch it. And when my client put it out there and it ended up on YouTube
Uh, this was many years ago. It had like millions of views at one point, and then YouTube took it off. And then people keep putting it back on, and it's just a deposition. It just keeps coming back and forth and back and forth. Well I don't know if they're still taking it down right now. Yeah, I hope now the climate's changed enough.
But those vaccinologists they don't want to show up anymore. I offered Peter Hotes that opportunity on the podcast and I told him I would donate a hundred thousand dollars to whatever charity of his choice.
And he like mocked that number as being insignificant. I'm like, Well tell me what the fucking number is. Like just come on and I was gonna have him and R F K Jr.'Cause he was talking about me having R. F. K. Junior on, they're saying a bunch of lies and like well instead of saying that and I think he
Oh god, I forget how what term he used for me. I'm like, Peter, you've been on my podcast twice. So what the fuck are you talking about? Like why why are you behaving like this? This is crazy. The uh what did he call me? Like it was something about Some alt-right adjacent or Neo fascist adjacent. You gave him an opportunity to show he was right in front of the world. He is the vaccinologist.
Bobby, just a lawyer, obviously will drool on himself. Like debate him. Well, what's the big deal? And I remember after he did that. I didn't I didn't a he had said all this stuff about me because Bobby was on the podcast and it was one of the rare times that I'd ever to go after that I ever go after anyone on Twitter. But I was like Stop. I remember why are you saying that? This is stupid. And and I remember a whole bunch of people added in.
Like they were willing to add I I I thought it was over I forgot the number, but it was in like a million. It was in the millions. They'll say, Well, I'm not good at debating It's you know, he's a lawyer. He'll use lawyer tricks. Peter Hotel's a lawyer? No, no, no, no. He's a lawyer. You know? And what they don't i but but you know if Data Web.
Exactly. And I would let that data win. The substance should win. I want y if you're right, I want to know. Like I don't fucking know. You tell me. I'm willing to debate Peter Hotes here any day. I don't think he's gonna do it. Paul Offit. Any of them. They can all ha in fact Stanley Plocken just wrote me a letter. He um after all these years after I deposed him, first time ever. Wrote me a letter. He said, I heard you wrote a book. I heard you wrote a book.
And um your deposition went uh very, very long and I wasn't prepared enough. He's the world's leading vaccinologist. And I will be credited with saving millions and you will go down in history as the one who's harmed and killed children.
That's what he wrote me a letter and I I wrote him back a f uh a response. I and I aw and I said, Look, I said, Doctor Plock, and I said, Thank you for your letter. I appreciate that you're writing me finally.'Cause I've reached out to him before one time at least. And I said, look, I I said, I I think we can agree on one thing.
I uh we want to save as many children as possible. I w I want to save children from infectious disease. That's important. I agree. But I also want to save children from the harm from these products. They matter too. They're not just there shouldn't be accepted casualties. The tens of thousands of families.
I've contacted my law firm, devastating harms from these products. They they matter too. And I said, Let's work together. Let's work constructively. I said, Because look, at the end of the day If you don't address this, if you don't address this issue, I said, history is not going to remember you for the good. history is gonna remember you for all the harm you cause because when people look back in history at products that cause devastating harm, which vaccines can do.
They don't remember the good those products did, they remember the harms that people ignored, that were overlooked and and those were expected.
just cast aside. I said that will be your legacy. I said but there's time to correct. He hasn't written me back. So I posted back I posted both letters on my sub stack and I tweeted them out so this way the w I figured they could do some good that way. So they're available to everybody to read. Well um I think it's a very unique time that uh this message can Because um what they did when they removed liability and they gave them blanket protection like that, they they opened up the door to
A bunch of people that really don't give a shit about you. They just want to make as much money as possible. There's the scientists, this is why I was describe like these companies. You've got the people that are making these You've got these really interesting, brilliant scientists, and then you have the fucking money. The money people don't give a shit.
They just want to make more money and they're both together. So you have this weird contradictory world where you have like some amazing pharmaceutical drugs that uh helped so many people and kept people alive and cured diseases, and then you got the money people. who want everybody to get shot up because it's gonna make them more money. And those two working together is a very bad mixture, especially when you have men
Then you mandate that these people have to be able to inject you and inject your children with this thing that's gonna make them money and they have zero liability? Like how could that possibly go well? Knowing what you know about human beings, who would sign off on that? That's crazy.
Oh, you know, I had a business idea for you. Okay. It's a great business idea. Listen, we're gonna sell this product. Okay. We're gonna Okay, we can it's uh uh uh we can inject it into people. Are you worried it's gonna hurt people? Well I'm a little worried until I I want to hear your story first. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry about it. Because governments can give us immunity liability, no matter how many people we heard or kill.
Oh how did you work that out? Yeah, I know. Now now the weird part is you might be saying to me, you say, Aaron, Aaron, wait a second. But but who the hell didn't take that? And I'll say, Joe, don't worry. The government's gonna mandate it too. And you might say, Okay, but what if people rise up and I'll say, Joe, don't worry.
They're gonna spend billions convincing the public it's the best thing since sliced bread. And then you're gonna say, but but what if people still don't wanna pay for it? And I'll say, Don't worry. The government through a a program literally pays for half of all vaccine, guarantees payment to the pharma companies. even if people cannot pay. So sounds like a good investment. No mu no no liability, guaranteed market, free promotion.
Guaranteed payment. It's the most in s if if it wasn't vaccines you'd say it's insane. It is insane and that is the business model of vaccines. That literally is what I just said. Think about it. So you're right, it's perverse. This thing that you're just saying before about like the money men who wanna just make money, like, look, i we live in a a capitalist system where we have tapped into that.
But we try to harness it for good. So every company has that to some degree. You know, people have that to some degree, but the idea with capitalism is. Yeah, but you you gotta channel that and you gotta do good. You gotta do a good product, you gotta do a good service, you gotta do something positive and if you and if you don't you'll be held accountable. So it's it's at le it's got guard rail it's got guardrails.
So, you know, it's it's you know,'cause I you know, few people are like, Well, what are you s you saying like people are sitting there in the farm company with horns and evil and like no, they're just but they're just they don't have guardrails. And they've g and they've gone totally You know, they've gone totally off the rail. I'm talking to my lawyer first'cause I don't want to go to jail. Well you're right. I was thinking of saying society I'd get locked up for the rest of my life.
Especially if he killed a bunch of people. And which is really crazy that none of these people do wind up going to jail. They pay giant criminal fines and then they slip away. I mean, look at the Sackler family. They they haven't been jailed, right? They they were gonna get immunity o in favor of like six billion dollars or something crazy, but then a judge kinda put the kibosh on that after Painkiller, the Netflix docudrama came out. Yeah. And and then and
Cr critically too, I would say it's like you remember during the bank crisis there were the banks that were too big to fail. Yeah. So they wanna touch those. The Sackler family to me, it's like the smaller bank that they could th y there was a I mean it was bad, but th they could sacrifice them. They could sacrifice that pharmacome.
Are they gonna sacrifice Merck, Sonofi, Pfizer, G SK, any of those guys? Are they gonna sac are they really gonna sacrifice them at the end of the day, no matter how much harm they do? I don't know. It's hard to see it. Well listen, um I'm glad you're out there. Uh and I'm glad you can articulate these points so clearly and passionately. 'Cause people need to hear it. They they need to know what
the actual data is what the actual story is about all of it. And it's better for all of us. And as hard as it is, a pill to swallow People need to get that glass of water and start swallowing. So uh thank you very much. Thanks for being here. I really enjoyed it. Uh and tell everybody your book. Did you do an audio version of it? I did. Did you read it? I did. Oh I did. How much work was it? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. It was a lot. Uh I didn't
I didn't I thought I could read, by the way. I was like I could read yeah, it's reading. And then I realized but I had to read the book. It was like I couldn't read anymore. Oh that's a good idea. Oh my gosh. Did you have to ever have to read an audiobook? No, but I do ads for the podcast and Jamie will tell you. I'm always like fuck I'm I'm always fucking up sentences, then you gotta redo'em. It's brutal.
Yeah, I think just talking is fine. Right. But when you have to read out loud, like your your tongue gets all tripped up and I'm like I can go to federal court, I can argue, I go I go to Senate hearings, I can like I'm like telling the audio guy'cause we're in the studio alone. I'm like, I'm I really am I'm I think I'm uh you I it might seem like a total moron. But I...
I probably am a moron, but I'm just a little bit bla I don't know. I felt like a such a moron. Yeah, I really feel the exact same way. Oh my goodness. It's uh but I did it. I it's done. It's out there, um on Audible. Uh and the books on Amazon. Vaccines. All right. Aaron, thank you very much. It was a an honor and a pleasure. Yeah. Really appreciate it.