The Joe Rogan Experience by Joe Rogan Park Gas by Night All Day It's a blue choir. Hey, sir, I'm doing better than I deserve. Well, that's a good statement. There's an old military saying any day above ground is a good day. There you go. So tell everybody what your official job was. Wow. I had a lot of official jobs with the government in regards to, you know, you know, you know, those things. Sure. Well, these things.
That's allegedly, that's a replica of the one that Bob Luzar worked on the sport model. I've heard that before. You know, designs by Perry, the E with, in Perry is a three and he's a dude on Instagram. He sent me that. Very cool. Pretty dope, right? Yeah. We have another one that looks just like it at the mothership at the comedy club. When you walk in, you walk right through like a giant suspended UFO. Very cool. So obviously I have issues. Well, you know what? This is a neat town.
I was strolling the streets yesterday. And I came across the Texas Toy Museum. Now, I'm not one for museums usually. The thing I saw was automatically transported me back to when I was a kid. I'm an old guy. So I grew up 70s and early years. Oh, 52. I'm 57. You are? Yeah. Man. Well, I look 10 years older than you. I have a lot of, a lot of long, hard miles on me, unfortunately. I do too. So believe it or not. Well, you'll have to share with me your secret.
Because unfortunately, I tell people this is as good as it gets. I'm about as attractive as a cement truck, you know. So I, after the Army, I went into the federal service and had a lot of jobs, mostly in counterintelligence, which is looking basically what the bad guys know about us from an intelligence perspective. And in 2008, I changed my job. One of my jobs I was working at the Director of National Intelligence, which for most people may or may not know, it's kind of outside of DC.
And where I lived, I was on the other side of DC living on a little island in the Chesapeake Bay. And so my commute was terrible. I mean, it really, really frankly. So I took a ferry every day? No, but it was about a three hour commute each way. Oh. You have to go right pass, lyingly. Yeah, it wasn't even close. Why didn't you move closer? Well, I wanted to give my kids a really good quality of life.
And I did not want to work in the city and then kind of expose them to kind of the craziness if that makes sense. Especially DC. DC is crazy. Especially with kids, right? Yeah. And you kind of nuts that they don't clean up the capital of the fucking country. It seems like you know, brother, it's kind of a dickative of the raw, the whole country is involved in. It's such a disgrace because you bring these foreign dignitaries. And the first thing they see is just the dereliction of it.
Yeah. And it's a very poor reflection on really what the American spirit is about. But you know, that's that's for another conversation. Yeah, it seems like they could fix that. Yeah, especially in that place. Yeah, one would hope, right? Yeah. Jesus Christ, this nation's capital. Yeah. So I was offered a job to go back to the Pentagon in 2008 for a little while and basically run the integration between national level intelligence information and local and state and tribal law enforcement.
So after 9-11, the country realized that we had a significant problem getting national level information down to the cops on the ground that could actually do something about it. Why? Because he didn't have security clearances. So they couldn't, they weren't allowed to be provided that information. So one of my jobs was to try to help fix that. And shortly thereafter, I got there in 2008.
It was probably early 2009 is when I was approached by two individuals who came to me and they said, look, we'd like to consider you for a program that we're part of. It's a very nuanced program, very secretive program. Now, when you're in the government, you hear that all the time. It's not, you know, people look at, maybe they tell you have a secret clearance or a top secret clearance.
Millions of people have some sort of security clearance in the government and a lot, a lot of people have a top secret clearance. So it's really not that uncommon. It's really not that sexy. You didn't really know what you're getting involved in. I didn't at all. Not at all. In fact, so, you know, great question.
So no, I didn't know what I was getting involved in. And after several conversations, it occurred to me that their interest in me was some of my background I had in my early career as a special agent in counterintelligence. I was protecting technologies, critical technologies, critical avionic technologies. For example, and some aerospace technology. So think of first aid solid rocket motor booster technology, Tomahawk cruise missiles, stuff like that, Apache Longbow.
So advanced avionics was something I was kind of already formal, kind of familiar with. And at the same time, I had the counterintelligence background. So I was asked to come in and run the counterintelligence and security aspect for a particular program at which time I had no idea what the program even was. So what does counterintelligence and security mean? It just simply means making sure that our adversaries like Russia and China can't penetrate our organization and steal our secrets.
That's all that is. It's kind of a fancy word for just saying security information security and operational security. So I remember I had a meeting. They brought me to go see their director. And it was in a, I would tell you the location, but I was told by the Pentagon not to say the specific location of this office. But it was somewhere in the DC area. It was a facility that wasn't known publicly to be an intelligence to be have an intelligence office in there.
So I can't say that the specific location, but I went there and I went up to the top floor. I think it was the top floor, almost the top floor. And I met for the first time a gentleman named James Lekatsky, doctor James Lekatsky, PhD. And this guy was the epitome of a rocket scientist. And when I say the epitome, I mean, he was probably, and there's no exaggeration, the number one rocket scientist in the US government.
Now, he's a humble guy. So he'll probably tell you he wasn't, but he really was. He's an amazing human being and very smart. And after a very brief conversation, he looked at me and he said, I want to ask you a question. Okay, sir. And he said, what do you think about UFOs? I said, well, I answered truthfully. I said, I don't. And he said, well, what do you mean you don't believe in him?
And I said, no, that's not what I said. You asked me if I think, you know, what do I think about UFOs? And frankly, I don't think about UFOs. I really don't have the luxury to think about them too busy, you know, working intelligence operations and whatnot. And I remember him looking over his glasses and very seriously staring me straight in the eye and says, well, don't let your personal bias get the best of you.
Because what you may learn may surprise you and may challenge any preconceived notion of what you think something is or is not. And so, let me backtrack for him. And I've never been a UFO guy. You know, people come up and go, you're that UFO guy? I'm really not. I was never really into the science fiction as a kid. I wasn't into the Star Trek or the Star Wars, like a lot of people were.
So that was not my disposition. You know, I grew up, I guess, playing GI Joe and stuff like that. So that wasn't that wasn't my background. And certainly in college. I studied microbiology and immunology with a focus on parapsychology. Now, parapsychology, the study of parasite, parapsychology. So the scientific method has always been something that has been near and dear to me. And then of course later on as a special agent.
You know, that when you're when you're conducting investigations, for me, I was always very fact driven. Kind of the old gum shoe, if you will, just the facts, ma'am, sort of guy. So I was never really prone to any type of, if you will, affinity towards science fiction or even the UFO topic. I just never really considered it. So he says this to you. And then how so we're talking about like what 16 years ago? Yeah, I do the math, right? So it's 2024 2000 early 2009.
So this is the beginning of your journey towards this sort of bizarre subject of whatever these things are. Yeah. So you don't have any real previous interest. He says this to you. And then what's the steps after that? Like how do you get introduced to this idea that these things are alien crafts? Yeah. So great question. So for some people, there's two kind of two ways people process this information, at least in my experience. And there may be others. This has just been my observation.
Some people have this kind of revelatory moment. There's a piphany where it's this aha moment where oh my gosh, this is real, right? For other people, it's kind of more of a slow gradual realization. And I think for me, I was probably in the second category. More of a slow gradual realization that this isn't, you know, a cover for something else. This is really about UFOs, about how do you first get introduced to these things?
Well, it was, it was, I didn't get introduced to these things. It was, first of all, I was introduced to the reporting. Right? There was these official reports that we were getting from the field. There's official videos and whatnot that describe vehicles doing things maneuvering in ways that frankly, I perform anything we have in our inventory. Now, keeping my background was at some point in aerospace. So I knew all the capabilities of an F 16 or, for example, an F 22 or the F 35.
And at the end of the day, as advanced as they are, they're still conventional aircraft. You know, they still have the old, there's a, there's an adage they use for jet engines. It makes, it makes seem a little awkward here, but it's a suck squeeze bang and blow. That's what a jet engine does. Forgive me, that's what it does. Right.
So it's a conventional, conventional type engine. Of course, you have a propeller to that can, can display, say, and whatnot. These vehicles were different. These vehicles for the most part didn't have any type of associated characteristic that you or I or any normal person would associate with, with the plane with an airplane aircraft, right?
But, and yet it's flying. So how does an airplane work? Well, let's say this cigar, for example, is an airplane. And there's four fundamental forces. And so you have thrust, lift, drag, and weight. And if you understand those, you can create, build wings and you create lift and you can fly. And then you have to have an engine for that thrust and whatnot.
The things that our military pilots were encountering didn't have that. They didn't have wings. They didn't have rudders and ailerons and control surfaces. They didn't have cockpitsy. They didn't have engine, and obvious signs of propulsion. They were, they were doing things and maneuvering in ways that frankly, defied anything that that we had in our inventory. And we were pretty certain the enemies didn't have either our adversary didn't have these technologies either.
And even more perplexing is that they were being encountered over controlled US airspace and over sensitive military installations. So, you know, from that perspective, you've got a real, you've got a real national security concern on your hands. So you said video. What was the, do you remember the first thing that you saw?
Boy, there's so many, you know, I think part of the, the challenge is that most people here in this country, they're familiar with the three videos, right? That have been famously released by the Pentagon. Go fast, go fast, gimbal, FLIR, correct. But those are, those are the least compelling of all the videos that the government has. Those were on classified. And so those were the ones, those were kind of the low hanging fruit that could be released to the general public.
There's stuff out there that's like 4K ultra high definition, right? So when you see something like that from a certain military platform or a certain military equity or an intelligence collection platform, you have to look at that and say, well, what, what is that? What the hell is that? More importantly, that data is being backed up by radar data, right?
So you've got, you've got electro optical data, like, gun camera footage or pot of FLIR, FLIR video. And then you've got radar data. That's, that is actually confirming what the video is picking up. And then you've got eyewitnesses that are also watching it, right? So you've got trained trained observers pilots that that can recognize the silhouette between an SU 22 and a big 25 from 20 miles away and make a split second decision.
Is it friend or foe? Do I kill it or is it? Do I let it live? And they're reporting it. So you have now, you know, three separate, if you will, collection platforms that the human eye being one of them, you've got gun camera footage and you've got radar footage, all describing the same event at the same place at the same time under the same circumstances.
Right? And so keeping my with my background as a former special agent encounter intelligence, if this was in front of a jury, you know, as I said before, I think we're well beyond reasonable doubt. That's, that is something there. I mean, that is real. That's not a atmospheric aberration. It's not a, you know, anomaly. That is, that is something there. It's tangible.
So was there an aha moment for you? Look, the first thing that you saw that you looked at and you go, what the fuck? No, I can't say for me, it was more slow and gradual. I didn't. What was the first thing that you saw that made you realize that there's something going on here that defies conventional wisdom or conventional understanding of propulsion systems.
I think for me, one of the most compelling moments was when I attended, well, I'm going to go back in memory banks, I attended a dinner with some individuals who were already associated with the larger umbrella program called all SAP. And I attended dinner at a Washington, DC hotel and a Brazilian general attended this, this dinner and the dinner was sponsored by a gentleman named Robert Bigelow, the famous billionaire hotel.
Yeah, I've met him. Yeah, I'm on the podcast. Yeah. And by the way, he's, he's an American hero. He's a patriot. He's really got it. He is really. And he's, and people don't realize that he funded self-funded a lot of this stuff on behalf of the US government for by himself.
Like he paid it to do it himself. He really is a, you know, an American patriot in my opinion. But anyways, he flew in this guy named General Uchoa. General Uchoa was a Brazilian general, very, very senior in the Brazilian government who led an investigation about an event that occurred over several days.
Is it the Varginia incident? No, it's actually called Coladas, another one in Brazil. Yeah. And the Colaris incident. And they had an overwhelming number of eyewitnesses. And there was even some, some video and photographs that they had produced internally there to Brazil.
And it was overwhelming. The evidence. And for me, that was, it was more listening to him and explain the concern they had and some of the interactions, the Brazilian government officials had with these UAP that really I left there that dinner scratching my head. And really, at that point, beginning to absorb the profoundness that we're dealing with something that is real. This is not a cover plan for some other technology we're trying to protect. Did he show you this video evidence?
So he was, I was sitting at the kind of like a table like this. There was a whole lot of people at the table. He was sitting at the head. I was kind of way down over here. And he brought a, a manila envelope. And he was showing photographs to everybody, right? And some reporting as well. I think he brought, if I recall correctly, his daughter to translate. Because I don't think English was his, you know, very good. It was his language.
But for me, that was, and I think for one of my colleagues too, which I probably can't say his name right now because he hasn't come out publicly yet. But we both left that dinner. I think scratching our heads and saying, wow, this is, so this is legit. This is real. The US government is interested in this. And there is interest by our government.
As after that dinner, attending more meetings and beginning to read the reports, the field reports and speaking to the scientists, it became evident to me that this was a very serious issue. We had near misses over some of our, our areas of operation. In some cases, literally these, these UAP splitting a combat formation. Now, if you know how planes fly, they find very close in combat situation.
These things were splitting the formation, right? That, that there were reports being being provided through the Air Force, mostly through the Navy, about air safety issues. Where pilots literally could run into these things, right? They're, they're, they're pervasive. It wasn't like a onesie and twosies. Was there ever an incident where a pilot or a jet did run into something?
Not that I'm aware of what I can tell you that there has been incidents where there's appears to be some sort of provocation where one of these things seems to be coming deliberately close to an aircraft, not necessarily trying to hit it, but maybe trying to demonstrate performance capabilities or was one video in particular.
I haven't been cleared by the Pentagon, so let me see if I can speak about it in general terms. There's a pilot flying and a, a, you can hear on the radio this chatter back and forth. Do you see it? Do you have eyes down on it? No, negative, no eyes down. Okay, should I want to radar? Yeah, I got something on radar, but no eyes, and I can't see it. And then all of a sudden a, a craft object goes whizzing right by the cockpit.
I mean, probably like 15 feet away. And you can hear the pilot, the expletives of the pilot, you know, I won't see it here on air, but you can imagine, right? What a pilot would say when they're very, very surprised. That was one there's there's there's just can you describe what he saw?
I think I can I want to be careful that I don't because again, I haven't had a what I what I have a approval to talk about. I've spoken about let me preface by saying you still have my security clearance and on occasion, I still will consult for the US government. And so I want to be very mindful. I have no problem going up all the way to the line, right, understood, but if I put up, you know, pinky toe over that line, there's right, right, right.
But it was a wedge shaped craft wedge shaped wedge shaped like triangular, but yeah, like a wedge like I don't know how to describe it. I could draw it for you if you want. Sure, you can. Yeah. So just like a wedge that you would like split wood with like that kind of a way. Yeah, but it was it was silver metallic and like a like a diamond, maybe that's a better way to describe it like a diamond almost and it looked kind of like it look kind of like that really is just a little.
And that kind of shape is something that's been reported multiple times. So that was the first time I ever saw something like that to me was keeping my I never followed this topic. So every time I'm seeing one of these videos, I'm kind of seeing something for the very first time. So lenticular way, it's a disc shaped craft or it's a wedge shaped craft or a diamond shaped craft or triangle shaped craft boomerang in some cases.
These were all new to me. So it was very, very perplexing and obviously to our military pilots, it was very concerning. And I think when you when you look at some of the gold standard cases we had like the Nimitz, for example, that that that case, you know, you have this overwhelming number of sensors looking at the same thing going on that the pilots are reporting.
So for me, that was most compelling. Like I said, more than I witness testimonies important, but at the end of the day, you know, grandmascing some lights in our backyard doesn't really do it for me.
You know, I'm a fact oriented kind of guy. I've got to see the data. Let the data provide us the information we need so that we can make a conclusion. Right. I'm not, you know, if you start seeing UFOs in the sky everywhere, well chances are they're probably not, you know, it was a quadcopter to balloon. It's an aircraft. It could be all sorts of things.
That's why I think from our perspective, having the fundamental categories, the observables we call them was so important because they are so beyond what what a normal aircraft to traditional conventional aircraft can do. At that point, you realize you're dealing with some some sort of beyond next generation technology. And that's what it gets compelling for for guys like me, right. Right. When you're when you're seeing performance capabilities that far exceed far surpass anything we have.
And I'm talking even the very, very best technology we have. We don't come close to that. And no visible means of repulsion. No, or obvious signs of lift, right. And not even a cockpit. You have to scratch your head and see what's going on. Interestingly, no windows. No windows. Well, in some cases, no windows. Other cases, people report what they think are windows. They say, I saw windows.
But at the end of the day, you know, we're we're looking that in terms of what we think a window is right. See a car, you see windows or playing those are windows. I didn't see any information to suggest that there were actually windows, even though an eyewitness might describe a window because we are describing in something of something that we recognize.
Right. And so we say, oh, that might be a window or not, but it might not be a window. And so I want to be very careful to to say there were no windows. There could have been. But the ones that I was privy to that I saw, I didn't see any obvious signs of like a windshield or a window. I didn't see anything like that.
I saw vehicles that were doing things that were were just left you scratching your head. And they were real. Like I said, because you're you're backing it up with all this other sensor data. And some of the best sophisticated sensor data, by the way, at the time on the planet that we had right like the spy one radar and the e2 Hawkeye and some of the other radar capabilities and technical capabilities that other intelligence agencies have that I can't discuss here.
So this is the stuff that helps us put forgive the analogy here, but warheads on foreheads when we're going to take a strike against a terrorist, these are the same sensor systems we use to to to prosecute that war that that act. Both in combat and not in combat. So. Yeah, that's that for me was was was very compelling. And it's lots and lots of videos. People think that there's only three videos.
Those are those those don't even scratch the surface. There are hundreds and hundreds of videos that that the intelligence community and the Department of Defense have on on these things. Has there ever been any discussion about releasing any of these?
I don't want to speak on behalf of the government. I colleagues of mine like Chris Melon who have been very, very, very active in this topic and have actually been responsible for a lot of what we see now happening in Congress has been championing that he is the one who says look we need more videos to come out.
So the American people can see for themselves what we've been dealing with when I had Chris Melon in the Pentagon. He saw those videos and up to that point he you know he had been when he was a senior person at the Pentagon like very senior one of his jobs as the senior intelligence official he asked hey do we have any UAP UFO videos investigations
anything like that and he told him no so when he came to the Pentagon and saw what we actually did have you can imagine someone like Chris Melon right he wasn't very happy. He was he was actually pretty pretty disappointed saying why why was I told no I can I can see these videos clearly see the reports.
Clearly this is something that we're interested in as a department of defense and yet when I was one of the senior guys he got the Heisman right he was being told no and so that's that was I think a point for him that really that's probably the spot I don't want to speak for my friend Chris but I suspect that was probably the spark.
I got him to the point where he said okay we have to do something about this this is this is this is BS yeah when I was talking to him it seems like that was his perspective that this was something that really should be in at least in some way shape or form release to the general public just to solidify the conversation just to let people know like these are real this is a real thing these are not just if you see the one that people are filming just a couple of days ago in Palmdale California.
Yeah I think they said those were drones of I'm not mistaken I think the jury came out if I'm not mistaken I could be wrong that it was a somebody using drones with some LED lights which by the wild things with drones now you absolutely create images in the sky 100%
Dragons and stuff with drones absolutely so you know we have to be careful as our own technology begins to advance there's going to be pranksters out there you know and that's one of the things that for me in in a tip I always went into an investigation or case assuming that it was manmade right and until I saw the compelling data that said otherwise we were always going to assume or presume that this was something that was
conventional it was probably misidentified but it wasn't it wasn't exotic yeah and then once the data suggests otherwise then you kind of go into that that that other mode of okay now what what are we dealing with again especially on the backdrop of the five performance observables that's when you start to say okay yeah this is this is not a this is not a this is not a Chinese aircraft this is this is
something different right what is the oldest video footage or film footage that you have ever seen or heard civilian or military does not like what is the oldest where it's like okay what the fuck is this what's the oldest stuff that's compelling so the point is what I'm trying to get at is a lot of people point to the possibility that there's some sort of a secret program some sort of secret propulsion gravity based whatever it is that's completely different
than conventional propulsion systems that the US government has and that they're operating these drones and the problem with that is always the like the Kenneth Arnold sightings the Ross well the sightings from a time where that technology just wasn't available at all
Joe I'm so glad you asked me that question it just so happens I brought you something oh I brought you come out you know it's serious no it just it means I'm old to yeah I'm gonna provide you a document here it's a it's a short document but the portions I think are highlighted
that you're gonna want to pay attention to and let's see here okay so if this is just for you and if your audience is interested it's this paragraph here you're gonna want to read and then it's the last one that's highlighted and then take a look at the date and the subject line this is it right here Jamie brought it up here oh great yeah so what which one to paragraph six right now so if you want to scroll down to paragraph six okay this summary of observations of aerial
phenomenon has been prepared for the purpose of re emphasizing and reiterating the fact that the phenomena have continuously occurred in the New Mexico skies during the past 18 months and are continuing to occur and secondly that these phenomena are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive military
and government installations and if you want to go back to like paragraph two there you go the highlighted part yeah the observers of the observers of those phenomenon include scientists special agents of the office of special investigations the U.S. Air Force airline pilots military pilots most security inspectors military personnel and many other persons of various occupations whose reliability is not questioned and they'll scroll to the top of the very top of that document and it says that it
was determined above that the summary of observations of aerial phenomenon in the New Mexico area December 1948 to May 1950 and the date of that document if you scroll a little bit higher you are going to see the date of that memo
1950 May 1950 and says that the it was determined that the frequency of unexplained aerial phenomena in the New Mexico area was such that an organized plan of reporting these observations should be undertaken right so this is the beginning of project blue book so this is the the
recognition that we have a serious problem over our sensitive military installations this is nothing new this is not 1970s reverse engineered technology or some sort of special technology 1950 they're talking about we have just broken the sound barrier and we had not yet entered into space
and we have these things that are performing in ways that frankly we can't replicate I brought a few more of these later on to emphasize that point you just brought up at some point if you're interested but it highlights that these are official government documents through official government personnel raising the alarm bells just like we did in in in awesome and a tips and so this is nothing new now let's if you want to look at this from an adversarial perspective
let's we our governors already said that's not ours right if you look at a 1950 saber jet for example it wasn't even supersonic and yet these things that we are observing in some cases are doing about some more documents here multiples of of mock at at at doing velocities and doing things that we frankly could not do back then and frankly we still can't do in some cases but to probably speaking the only two countries in the
world may may have a chance of doing something like that would be Russia and China and now 1950 where it was China was in the middle of a famine and at the time and where was Russia Russia was trying to develop the atomic bomb and still was using horse drawn carts for a lot of their military operations so temporally speaking it doesn't make sense this is this is the analogy I've used before Joe that it would be like sort of the Carter going into
King Tut's tomb for the very first time in the 1920s discovering King Tut's tomb and when he goes in he finds a fully assembled 747 jet it doesn't make sense to temporally speaking they did not have that technology so is it possible and I'll be very careful what I say that the US government has some sort of exotic technology well my answer is I sure hope so because you know we want to have an advantage over our adversaries but in 1950 that wasn't the case right and do they have any film
of these crafts from New Mexico there is film of many craft and not just New Mexico per se but over many military installations here I got another one for you I'll provide you you don't want to waste your time reading it but the I think you'll appreciate this take a look at the date of this and who it's to and who it's from and I think you'll find the subject line very interesting okay which one what part of my reading here just to highlight a portion so you can see the top of the
document who it's from who it's to in the date and what the subject line is director special investigate what does it say it's hard because it's all scratchy yeah it's an old reproduction of official government document bottom line it's a it's a document from Jay Edgar Hoover oh I say
from the director of the yet channel department of the Air Force the Pentagon yeah Jay Edgar Hoover director of Federal Bureau of Investigations and so read the subject line of that memo flying it's god it's god it's hard to read because it's all screwy flying discs it should say flying
discs over the savanna it's it there's a sensitive facility that we had where we were doing atomic development yeah flying disproportionately seen a vicinity of the something river plant savanna river plant yes sir okay that's correct and so that's a atomic energy yeah and the date of
that being you know 1952 right so so this is an a this is verified this is that was released by the government that is a those are all official all these are official US government documentation that anybody can pull up anytime they want did they let you see any of these ancient films
these films from the 1950s of these things so great question our focus was really more modern time it was more like taking a picture where we are now I mean but wouldn't you want to just like if you if you really think this thing is from somewhere else the best example of it definitely not
being ours is something from the 1950s sure and anecdotally that that's that's great but keep in mind on the backdrop of national security when you go to a general and you see this up by the way yes crazy it's like half the things you've wanted out and scratching yeah that's uncle Sam for you you know it when you go to a general or you know makes me suspicious no you can find it I know I know I know but it's just like yeah the government released that I mean they they admit that that's it's
fucking shitty old 1920 facts machine look at that well they remember they were using typewriter right and the ink smears yeah blotchy and I'm sure the original is probably much much cleaner but that's what the government put out online for people to review so when you're going
back to your quite answer your question when you are going to a general or you're going to a military leader about this topic if you go back to anecdotal stuff like oh this is something from 1950s they're not interested they're like look what is going on now right what is the threat now
I've got a carrier strike group out in the water I'm getting reports these things are are coming in and interrogating the ship you know what I want to see that I want to see the videos I want to see the reporting I want to see the what the deck logs and what the commander says and I want to the
pilots want to talk to the pilots the radar operators right that's their focus they're not interested in that whether we try to few times and the further back in time we go the less interested they were so it was really interesting yeah it was really the current information what's going on now
not interested what happened they're taking a pragmatic approach yeah yeah and it's you know it's understandable from a military perspective a national security perspective the other stuff is interesting and from the general public's perspective you know they're interested
but from a national security perspective they're like hey man that was three decades ago right now I need I need now so it is understandable little frustrating because you want to you want to demonstrate look boss this is this is nothing new right this is this is a repeated pattern
that we're seeing here but they're more interested in the here and now so did they have repeated footage because you're saying three decades but obviously we're talking about 1950 did they have stuff from the 1980s stuff in the 1990s there was reporting yeah and again I got to be careful
because some of that stuff I have been clear to talk about but there are there are reports we call foreign intelligence f i foreign intelligence reports and I can't say where or who or anything like that but on classified systems where we know without a shadow of a doubt
u a p's were encountered in other countries adversarial countries why because we spy on them and we know again I can't say how we know and what not and trouble but just so we know this is not a United States phenomenon precisely it is not a US only phenomenon and in fact in other
countries whether it's in Latin America South America or in Europe or Russia China there is an extreme interest in this topic in fact the Chinese it was in the newspaper I think it was a China morning sun there's something called the five continents initiative where allegedly
they were trying to broker a deal with the United Nations that would allow China to run all the UFO investigations for the United Nations right so we also know that Russia they've come out and said yeah we're interested in this topic there was some released old KGB footage that showed
mig interactions with these u a p and there's also in Latin America you have the same thing if you go to Latin America now they don't have the same level of stigma and taboo associated with this topic like we do and so they talk freely about it they they have no problem talking in fact
when I was in in the Patagonia area of Argentina there is a near town called Bariloche and Las Lajas one of the chief of police was telling me that have there's an area they're called La Miranda La Miranda means to see to view and they call it that the town and because u a p
are so frequent there that local law enforcement actually built an observatory and observation post to look at these things because they were so frequent so this is not a new phenomenon this is something that's been around for quite a long time the problem is in my opinion and I could be
in the town but this is my assessment the reason why it's so difficult to have the conversation here is because our government had placed so much emphasis and interest trying to stigmatize this topic that it almost worked too well now we're at the point where we should be having this
conversation and people still don't want to because they think it's crazy you think it 10 4 hats and almost on the mothership when in reality we're talking about a real national security issue I mean these things are here you you have Joe you have a former director of national
intelligence Rackliffe a former director of CIA Brennan you have former presidents all coming out and saying yeah there's something to it it's real right now what it is we're from and all that stuff I'm not sure we're quite ready to go there yet but the acknowledgement is hey man
yeah this is real it's not ours and we probably should do something about it so if we go back to the history of the debunking of it you know like the project blue book stuff J. Alan Heinrich after he had left project blue book he became a proponent of UFO disclosure
during project blue book he it was his job to be essentially dismiss everything and to come up with some sort of a reason swamp gas mass hallucinations whatever it was to attribute all these sightings to something that was very easy to explain did they ever is there
any documentation or any discussion of why they did that why they chose to debunk everything yeah my my understanding is you have to look at where America was at the time they were doing these investigations it was at the height of the Cold War right and you
know despite what some people think the Cold War wasn't very cold at all it was pretty hot and we had Russian the United States engaging in these proxy wars neither side wanted to let the other side know what we had and what we didn't know right so if you have these
UAP coming in and out the last thing you want to do is tell the other side broadcast this is what we've learned from it and more importantly this is what we don't know about it right and so both sides were keeping this very quiet but there was an interesting agreement at the classified
level I believe in the late 60s where there was this relationship with the United States we were putting up our northern tier radar system to detect then Soviet Union ICBMs and they were doing the same thing right because none of us really trusted each other but we trusted each
other enough to say look before you hit that button if you see something coming over the horizon before you hit that button and launch give us a call because it might be a UFO right and we don't want to start World War III because either side mistakes a UFO for an ICBM right and that's how
seriously they took the topic I mean that's real that's a real memo that that existed between the United States and Russia so that's that is an indicator how much both sides took this topic seriously Jesus and so when Philip Corso was dismissing all these different things did they
have anything any film footage any any stuff from that time from Project Blue Book that was like definitively not ours I'm not privy I'm aware of the fact that people say it does exist and people have been briefed on it I wasn't privy to that I was again more focused on the
here and now right I was aware of people who had attended certain meetings very senior level meetings where that was discussed where they saw certain footage but that's I'm hearing that second hand I I did not see the old footage my my focus was more on the on the current what's going on
now but back to your point why was this effort to try to create some of its stigma taboo I think it was because of that I think because you had Russia and US at this weird stalemate or neither one wanted to tell the other side what we know and what we didn't know about UAP and and really the I think
the focus from a national security perspective let's say you're a general and I'm a general look we've got a real cold war going on here right now as long as these things aren't coming in and zapping my that's going to be my focus right now that's that's a real potential threat that I have to deal with now I've got Russia pointing nukes at me and I'm pointing nukes at them at any time we could launch
let's focus on that more so than the other stuff and that was that is that has been my observation on why they didn't want to address the problem the challenge openly with the general public back and they also were worried there was a there was several studies that suggested that most people would be comfortable with that idea that there's something else in the cosmos potentially or even right here on
earth and that it would create some sort of societal disruption right they didn't want to cause panic they were afraid that people would kind of like think of a run on Wall Street right when people get panic they do kind of strange things sometimes and I think the government was very worried about that what's the most compelling modern thing that you've seen oh my god I can't talk about it unfortunately
that's what that's this is my frustration Joe because I know what I see I know my colleagues are seeing right and to this day there's there's video that's coming in on a regular routine basis that is very very compelling and if they hardly had this stuff from the general public
well we have classified systems behind a lot of it how is it how is it getting filmed is any of it getting filmed by the general public or is all this military stuff so let me backtrack a little bit this there's there there's a general public that is filming stuff but from a department of defense
perspective our focus now arrow is a different story but when I was in the government we had to be very very careful of something we called intelligence oversight back in the 60s and 70s the US intelligence apparatus particularly in the department of defense was kind of naughty they were doing things they shouldn't do they were spying on students and they were spying on American citizens you don't do things yeah crazy it's so Congress passed some laws and said okay you you can no longer
do this kind of stuff on on on American citizens right you can't conduct intelligence operations on American citizens you can't do it see legal right so you have executive order one to triple three and all these other rules and laws and duty 5240 out one that all come out and say no moss
so department of defense is supposed to focus on military that's it you don't you don't bring in US persons information and ingest them into a department of defense database especially a department of defense intelligence
database that's a super no no that's called US persons information and it's pretty much for Bowton so our focus was looking specifically at military sourced information I was not focusing at all on what the private citizens were seeing because at the end of the day we couldn't use it you can't you can't do anything like you got plenty of compelling footage from the military overwhelming overwhelming it there's absolutely no doubt that we didn't have to look at civilian data
because we had better collection sensor systems from the military that was looking at stuff and giving us better insight if you can't tell us about can you give us some sort of an understanding of like what you're talking about yeah sure without being specific yeah let me see okay yeah there is a video high resolution video of I can't say what platform was taken from I can't say where was taken from but an object that you know
do you know how large an offshore shore oil derrick is they're huge right they're like almost like a small city right they're like one city block they're huge they're enormous things there is a video that shows one of these objects underwater that goes by the speed was calculated between 450 and 550 knots underwater and it was bigger than the offshore derrick that it was passing because you could see in the video the offshore derrick and you could see this thing is zip right by it
Jesus yeah so that's a lot of them right a lot of them are reported as being trans medium right so that exact why do we use a term UAP right now it's unidentified anomalous phenomenon because it's all domain initially was UFO unidentified flying object
and for several reasons they changed the name one of them not just because a stigma like people think but because the word flying object means flight right and you have to have wings to fly that's flight and these things don't have wings so that term we're not even sure is even accurate anymore
because they're not just flying we see them underwater we see them super high altitude so the term was changed to unidentified aerial phenomenon but again that did not encompass all the observations we were seeing so now the term UAP I think the latest description of it
unidentified anomalous phenomenon to help describe this multi domain or trans medium characteristic that we are beginning to see and record that these things can do and that's that is I'm gonna if I can digress for a second because that's super important Joe we have trans medium vehicles right we have things like sea planes and it's a plane and it can float on water but let's face it a sea plane is neither a really good plane or a really good boat because it's a compromise
it's a design compromise between an object that you want to perform in the air and in the sea and that's why it's neither really good at both same thing with for example the space shuttle goes out into space and it can glide down but it's not a very good airplane comes down like a brick
you know because there's design compromises and performance compromises but what we are seeing doesn't have any of that attributable compromise it's not these objects aren't slowing down they're not changing their performance capabilities they can do the same thing that we're seeing in the air and possibly in space and even underwater so that is a that is a fundamentally different type of technology than we are used to dealing with
is the assumption that they are doing something with space time and gravity around them rather than using something like a jet propulsion engine that blasts fire out the back and it makes it go fast forward that they're doing something that alters the gravity around them yeah so that's why they can go through everything yeah so we have had some of the best scientists on the team folks like Dr. Hal Prudoff and some other folks that are not allowed to say their names
Dr. Arctavis and some others that we're doing the calculations mathematical calculations on how this is possible and the consensus was by by the scientists not me because I'm not a physics expert I'm not a astrophysicist they were saying that so let me back up here initially the government for a year was trying to identify the different exotic technologies that could explain the different performance characteristics
and it was during the A-tip years that the scientists had this consensus that if you had one type of technology if you could do one thing all these other observables now become possible kind of think of like a unifying theory and so if you had the ability to create this bubble around you in a localized area that insulated you from the effects of Earth's gravity now what is gravity people think that you know when I drop my glasses that's gravity that's not gravity that's an effect of gravity
gravity is the warping of space time and that's important because people don't you hear the term thrown around a lot but they don't realize that space and time are actually connected they are they are they are one of the same they're up the sides if you will at the same coin and so you can't have one without the other and so you have this ability to create a bubble around you that insulates you from the warping of space time
let's say in this case Earth's gravity or something like that then the way you experience time inside that bubble is perhaps fundamentally different than the way you might experience space time outside that bubble because you're not you're not subject to the effects of gravity which would explain potentially potentially why things don't need wings and why they don't need propulsion systems like that right
so it's it's a completely different way of looking at at how we understand physics and how we as humans move about everything we do is fundamentally force equals mass times acceleration I have equals M a right mass times acceleration in your force this may be something a little bit different this is this is not using a set again conventional thrust or if I put you know Newtonian
right if I if I push this way I have an equal and opposite reaction that way right that's how there any theories as to how it's accomplishing this there is actually doctor how put off about three years ago gave a speech on this
a very interesting talk lecture about this technology if you ever have the chance you really should have him on because he's he's an incredible human being he's also the one who helped start the government's remote viewing program and a bunch of other stuff for the government
he's been involved in a lot of our nations probably most most classified efforts but he was working with us on an ATP is one of our scientists and he gave a lecture about three years ago to some other scientists about the specifics on how this is possible I am not a scientist so I definitely not going to speak on behalf of how put off because I'm sure I will muck it up but I do recall a time when he came into our skip and gave us about a three hour lecture on this unifying theory
and at that moment it was very much for us the epiphany that a lot of us had been been searching for he's like look at the end of the day this is how it's possible and that was kind of this wow so it's really not can you give us a more on view of how it's possible yeah explain to someone like me yeah well I'm in that category just so you know speaking the same language yes sir yeah single syllable grunts right yeah so you have you have an object
like this cup on your table and you want it to be insulated from the effects of Earth's gravity so you you create this bubble artificially using a certain energetic source at a certain frequency and it interacts with certain material certain metamaterial and I have again I get to be careful exactly what I say but certain skin of the craft this aluminum be the cup here
and all of a sudden you have this bubble around you where what you see on the outside is not necessarily what you see on the inside in fact may do it so more drunk yeah okay and forgive me I'm not an artist so I'm going to do this upside down for you and then I'm going to kind of scoot this just a little here all right let's do this so unfortunately I know your audience can't see this but actually some people can
it there's a video form of it well I'm sure this will get on little bit on YouTube as well it's probably good that they do because I'm not an artist okay let's say this is a two-dimensional representation of a three-dimensional space okay and in essence so what you've done is essentially you've created a three-dimensional looking grid stacked looked like stack boxes on top of each other yeah right and so you have this you have location a and location b
and let's say go from Los Angeles to Baltimore okay and it takes me five hours to fly at 500 miles an hour that's a function of distance over time and in essence you can mark that linearly like this so I fly take me five hours there I am okay if you had the ability to compress space time and a lot just a little bit and you were able to allow these points to be a little closer together now in essence what took you let's say five hours and 500 miles an hour to do it you can do it in one hour
and you can do it in much less time but to the observer outside because we're still in the same universe we would see something like that we would see this incredible hopscatching ability to if you will take a shortcut through space time and so what would appear to be instantaneous acceleration
hyper-sonic loss and other things now becomes a reality and so that is that is fundamentally what what the scientists had discovered and so it seems like science fiction but when you understand the mathematics and some of the theorem that they propose a lot of these other observables become possible
so these are essentially just theoretical explanations of how these things are moving yeah and again I'm not I'm not right scientist I want to be very careful you know I don't want to misrepresent anything
there's a whole lot of other stuff that if you can do that all of a sudden now makes sense and may describe the observations that people are seeing and why they're kind of hard to see and they seem obscure and so I think from a from a governmental perspective that it was kind of a revelatory moment
for the folks in our program so they realize they're one of the reasons why these things are weird looking is because they're literally creating one light do you mind I'm sorry thank you so the back thing the other side push that down there you go bam
thank you very much no problem so how how much of this is theoretical and how much of this is observed from recovered vehicles I am not allowed to talk about what the government may have in its possession other than that I have I so I went through a very lengthy Pentagon review process
recently I I wrote I won't talk about it here but I wrote something and I had to go through Pentagon to have a review process and it took almost a year in this this thing I wrote I talk about up to the led up to the part I can talk about and they approved for me to talk about up to that point what it comes to what the government may or may not have in its possession all I can simply say is that there is very compelling evidence to suggest that the US government is in absolute possession
of exotic material that is not made by humans now beyond that I can't really expound upon I haven't been given permission to talk about it but what I can say is what I've already said for the record which is been approved by the Pentagon well can trouble by saying it is that that that we are there's very compelling data to suggest that we are in possession
why is the Pentagon teasing us why do they tell you why are they allowing you to say we are in possession of something that was not made by human beings but not allowed to elaborate not allowed to show these very compelling videos that you're talking about that you've seen I don't well two reasons I don't think they have a choice I think with now the introduction of cell phones and ring cameras the cats out of the back
it's the worst kept secret at this point to there is a faction unlike before in the Cold War I believe there is a faction of people inside the government that do want this conversation to occur but equally there's still a faction of people that are very mad with me they do not want me having this conversation and mark my words just by me being on your show it is going to cause an absolute storm inside the Pentagon and I am sure the other shoe is going to drop
I promise you it's going to you're going to hear all sorts of stuff people make stuff up about me trying to discredit this topic because as many people are in the government that want this topic to be discussed now there's still some people that do not want this
Could you steal man their position say again steal man their position meaning could you argue it from their perspective like why sure it would be a good reason to keep this stuff quiet sure and I want to preface here I'm not I'm not fear mongering
No, I don't think so. Look if I was if I was a military person right I would look at this from the perspective of there's three options they're good they're neutral or they're bad so let's go down this road for a second let's say they're good right well we got nothing to worry about the problem is there's nothing to suggest that they truly are benevolent people say well you know they're like they don't want us to nuke ourselves well you know I discussed it in in what I wrote
that there's no there's no there's no data to suggest that they didn't stop us from dropping atomic bombs in Hiroshima Nagasaki and vaporizing 500,000 living souls they didn't stop us when we started developing nuclear weapons from the atomic age they didn't stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons they didn't stop the
the testing and the Nevada range of of of atomic and nuclear weapons and now how many countries have atomic weapons and nuclear weapons a lot right they didn't stop Chernobyl they didn't stop Fukushima they didn't stop through my island so to say that they're here to help us I'm not sure there's there's data people say well you know in in my not and in North Dakota and Montana they the UFOs came in and they stopped they they interfered with our nuclear
weapons and they brought the entire echo flight offline but just by the way I have the government report on that if you want it but in Russia a lot of people don't know they turned them on right so that's equally scary they're interfering with our nuclear capability whether to attack or to defend ourselves so when you say they turned them on in Russia this is a Russian report yeah so this is a I don't know if you
remember the hearing congressional hearing that occurred last year where the no the other one with undersecretary defense for intelligence Ronald Maltry and some people from the Navy and I think it was Congressman Gallagher that asked the very specific question and he said are you aware of UFOs interfering with our nuclear
capabilities and the response was something like no that really smear with it never heard of it and then the question was I think we asked specifically at these locations and the government's response was not not familiar with it well here's the actual report from the Department of Defense this is the actual intelligence report that was released through FOIA there's a there's a gentleman out there who runs a site called the black vault his name is John Greenwald he's probably the world
authority on freedom of information act and he has a wealth of data that is out available to the public that he has received from the government this is one of those that this is the document that our own government has no idea apparently exists I like how they write it in all caps yeah yeah that's the old reporting so obviously there's some people
that don't want this to be released and obviously there's some people that think that the general public has a right to know I believe so that's my that's been my observations in my experience well that makes sense you know I mean like when everybody says the CIA does this like okay who well we in the CIA I didn't finish though the other parts right
so if they're not here for friend if they're not it's not friendly right that leads them neutral like us right or benevolent now from military perspective and I just want to caveat I don't agree with this but I can respect the understanding you serve a general and I say and I say we cannot prove that they're not here to do something bad but what we do know is that they can interfere they're very interested in our in our military
capabilities and they have interfered with our nuclear capabilities right from a military perspective that looks an awful lot like if something we call IPB initial preparations of the battle space or perhaps even ISR intelligence surveillance or reconnaissance whenever we're going to go into a foreign military and invade we do long range surveillance we want to know how the enemy operates how they react so even if there's a 2%
chance 5% chance that these things are are here to do something my level and right then we probably should not tip our hands to the fact that we are aware of it publicly because what happens the moment that the bad guys in a foreign country find our surveillance
team over the border we've got 12 hours we got we got to invade because the element of surprises now over so some may feel in the government the mere fact of acknowledging this if there is some sort of malintent may push up artificially a clock that exists somewhere for these things to say oh okay the the the the full of humans are now the catch out of the bag they know where we're we're here we need to go in now for whatever reason they may have so that is the military mindset potentially
of some of these individuals who want to keep the secret so they're worried about an actual invasion well but they have to be that is that is the role of of our national security apparatus right even if there's a 1% chance right they have to consider that in their planning and in the decision making matrix so again going back to what I said I respect that I don't agree with it but I can respect that if that is the reason why then I would say okay
look in your heart you really do have the best interest of the American people you are a patriot I can accept that again I don't think it's your decision to make I think needs to go to Congress I think it's going to the president let the American people
decide I think I think America can handle the truth I think America deserves the truth and let the American people decide if it's in their best interest I agree with this but I also could see it from their perspective like they're probably insanely
busy already and the last thing they want to do is get involved in this thing where now they have a PR campaign when they're trying to let people know about this thing and not cause mass panic that's right that's right but you know what though I'm also very optimistic Joe because you and I are having this conversation and people aren't making a run on Wall Street people are still paying their mortgages going to PTA meetings and after the 2017 New York Times report which was
probably one of the the biggest moments in UFO disclosure because it was in the New York Times and then you see something like that in the New York especially the New York Times in 2017 people really respected it it's like this is this is a real story well and this is this is a political yeah I mean how many topics can you go to Congress and have that's not polarized right right this is one of the only ones where you can have literally have
congressman borscht and congresswoman a.o.c. side by side agreeing that this this is important right this is this is it's a very rare opportunity and so you know my concern I'm doing this because I believe it's the right thing to do and my concern is that we're at a point now where I've said before you know secrets aren't like a fine wine where the longer you keep a cork on it the better it gets I think secrets are perishable I think they have
a shelf life I think they're like vegetables in your refrigerator and there comes a point where if you leave them there too long they start to rot and they start to stink and they become a big mess to clean up right
and so that's my perspective and what I'm trying to do is give the government an ability to work its way out of a corner that it's put itself into for the last several decades and with no seeming way out right right look around like well how do we get ourselves out of this is there an issue of
legality like of of spending and like 100% 100% there's people that be liable for yes not being straight forward with congress and I know people want their pound of flesh I know there's people out there you we've been lied to for decades and I want and then they make it a political issue right go
after someone for yeah and I think that's the wrong approach I think you know there was a time but we needed to keep this secret and I think what you do is you you you give those guys awards give those guys and gals award to who did it don't don't make a man amies make
them friends and say okay look but those were different times now is the time to to to to come clean talk to the members of Congress for give all the passons yeah reconciliation 100% and let's just get clear with all this to understand that it was all in good faith that you did it in the first place 100% now all in the interest of the state security you talk about legal issues the problem is there are the real legal issues so let's say you have again these cups forgive my analogies you have two
aerospace companies company a company B and let's say I am in the department of defense back in the 50 60s and I come across this interesting technology I have no idea what the hell it is it just came out of the sky and I go to company and I said tell me what you can figure out about that right right ten years later company A becomes a multi billion dollar aerospace company company B goes bankrupt 200 people lose their jobs and now people who have stock investors in that company
lose their money right unfair advantage keep in mind you're supposed to have fair competition in the US government so if you give an unfair advantage to company A to be you're talking a serious liability there's SEC violations there there's all
sorts of concerns one has to pay attention to because someone somewhere gave an unfair advantage to one company over another so there there's there are legal liabilities that we have to we have to recognize it's not just clear cut okay forgiven forget you know there's going to have to be some some
additional protection and understanding for if if that occurred we need to figure out how we deal with that as well so that would be an impediment to release that makes a lot of sense yeah these are big companies right with yeah pockets and a lot of lawyers well it I mean also this is a discussion
that we've had on here before if you did find something who would you bring it to you bring it to the people that build your fucking jets like hey guys what the hell is this like you know you make some sort of a top secret agreement you bring it to them in some sort of a undisclosed facility best and bread cured best and bring the guys in and go what the fuck is this thing yeah you kind of have to otherwise like how what else would you do you know I mean how else do you find
out how these things work and if you were going to do it in a secretive map manner you would have to bring it to defense contractors because those are the only people that are capable of making things they make your jets they make they make the you know every stealth bomber every well whatever the fuck it is they make all that shit going back to you know a colleague of mine made the comparison he said look Lou imagine being during the days of Da Vinci and all of a sudden
bringing Da Vinci a garage door opener you have no idea what it's used for right never seen plastic before you don't even understand electromagnetic radiation right with you know and infrared you know where do you start on the analysis right and exploitation of a technology that the physics hasn't
even been discovered yet right I mean garage door opener seemed like magic right it really does you know I press a button and a door opens like magic wait where's the horse where's the strings what's that right yeah so it's kind of bananas you press a button on your car and all of a sudden your door opens right and you drive in and you press another button it closes and it's all done through the air right which is bananas magic but we're just accustomed to it
that's right yeah so this kind of technology I'm sure you're aware of the Bob Lazar store I'm aware I don't know Bob I've never met him so you never got into that I've I did not I could you not with your line of work because
you know I always wanted to be insulated from prejudicing the jury and I know it sounds kind of strange but I didn't everything you know it's it's it's it's kind of something I impose on myself because I didn't want to have any preconceived notions of going in most people kind of I suspect would be
tempted to say well I'm going to learn everything I can about you know UFO lore I wanted the opposite I better man than me I did well I love I'm very I think I just I just wanted to be very very careful to preserve the investigative integrity right and we're look we're all humans
we're all bias that's there's no way around we all have some degree of bias let's let's be honest and truthful here it doesn't matter what type of bias it is we all have some sort of bias somewhere whether it's food or it's the people
you like to date or whatever I wanted to avoid that as much as possible and so I I always kept it very very focused on the here and now and you know what what can we see today right you're aware of the story though right the I basic tangentially I that he worked at a particular facility and at that
facility he was exposed to some sort of UAP technology that thing right that thing that thing right there the sport model and that he was brought in as a propulsions expert and to try to they didn't know how it exactly worked but they they sort of just said tell me what this is Roger and then along the way he realized oh this isn't even ours yeah I'm I'm aware of again that the overarching story I don't know any of the details and I've I've never met him personally so
I'm very very interesting guy I had dinner with him with my friend Andrew Schultz and Jeremy Corbell we went to dinner and you know informally talked and had a fascinating conversation and Jeremy's a great guy he's a great guy yeah he's really you know he's done a lot he said to say hi he's pumped that we're talking yeah he's done a lot of UFO nut and he got me really way back in with his documentary of Bob Lazar flying saucers whatever the actual title
of it is but that that documentary fantastic and it's essentially going over Bob Lazar's story from the 1980s to today which he's told the exact same story which is nuts that you have one giant lie your whole life like come on there's a lot of weirdness to the story obviously like there is with everything there's a lot of people that want to discredit his his background and all sorts of other things but the reality of what he's saying is essentially what we're seeing
in these crafts which is very strange so he described how these things worked and how they moved and how they would turn sideways and sort of like project this whatever this reactor that they have inside of them and he talked about this element element 115 they have a stable version of it that was essentially this theoretical at the time in 1980 no one really knew whether or not that thing actually even exists 89 or whatever it was and that they would douse this thing
project radiation upon it and it would create this warp this gravity warp this this thing that allowed this this craft to move in ways that defied our understanding the hell of a lucky guess hell of a lucky guess hell of a lucky guess
in 1989 wow and he drew it he is diagrams of what this thing looked like and you know how it worked and it essentially looked exactly like that little model that's on the desk there and that he felt like the whole it didn't make any sense he said the whole thing it didn't have any seams which now we
understand 3d printing right so now we know that we can actually but only now right back then right of course everything had rivets exactly the skin of a craft was a skin of an aircraft exactly rivets and nuts and bolts and exactly
you know but now you know obviously now we have carbon fiber we have a bunch of different ways to construct them things but back then he didn't know what the fuck that thing was he said it looked like it had all been melted like into place like that it'd been like almost like smooth like wax like
melted wax and that it had no instrumentation inside of it and it was designed for very small things like something that was like three feet tall and that all these things seem to operate through the being itself had some sort
of connection to the craft some sort of strange way of interfacing with the craft that didn't have anything to do with pulling levers and moving things but Joe is that really that much of a stretch let's let's look at this you know we have we've done experiments where we've had pilots be able to
control aircraft thousands of miles away with a helmet that interprets thought right so it's you know again how does the helmet enter is it similar to like a neural link setup if you've seen the new video of the second neural link patient I have not this video of him playing counter strike was a
counter strike or is it uh... said it so counter strike which is a very popular online uh... 3d game and this guy who does not have use of his body has this neural link implant he's the second neural link patient and apparently it with each iteration it gets more and more sophisticated and better so
this is a from this person's point of view he's playing this video game entirely with his mind so he's better than I can with my head than anybody can be who has the first guy who is the first neural link patient we had a modern he said it's essentially is like having an
aim bought because you you don't miss you look at the thing you're trying to shoot at and instantaneously across here is go there wow yeah so he's all this stuff is taking place entirely this is all him doing this entirely with his mind but is is that right so if we can do that now right right is it really that far of a stress to think that you know someone who's a little more advanced in us right our friend from out of town realize that's the way to do
that's more efficient right that the speed of the processing of the brain the processes of the brain is much fowl takes us longer to then have to mechanically use our hands to manipulate do things this is almost not quite but almost instantaneous uh... you don't have that lag right of course so that would certainly make sense um... you know modern warfare not the game but actual modern warfare beginning to turn to them we're using a i in all these other uh... augmentation
to enhance performance and so i i don't think that's out of the realm of of possibility no certainly not i mean just go from garage door openers to you know five hundred six hundred years ago right to today and then cell phones the ability to send video across the world instantaneously
all the sophisticated stuff that we've just completely take for granted because it's become a normal part of every day life that that's you know i used to i think of a briefing to some folks uh... uh... so glad you mention this because it's this goes back to the whole stigma taboo issue
i used to have a slideshow and still have somewhere and i would i would discuss the word that the latin word prefix of para p a r a and it means above a side and so what i would do is show up i would say the word parachute and i'd ask people what do you think of when you hear the word parachute
and people would describe obviously something that deploys over your head and hopefully hit the ground with it with a thump and not a thud right uh... but something that's normal we use every day and then i say what about the word paramedic and then people would look at it and say well i think of a first responder someone goes to some you know some sort of medical lifesaver that's gonna gonna be there for your benefit and then i say the word when i say the word paranormal what do you think
and people stop for a second maybe the kind of little slice my all say what do you mean so what do you mean i mean that paranormal the only the only reason why you're reacting to what you are because you've been conditioned that the word paranormal
is a cookie stuff cookie stuff when a reality in science by definition everything is paranormal until it becomes normal the cell phone that i use every day fifty years ago absolutely paranormal and so i would go through this exercise of things that were once considered paranormal
for example when the ink of first saw the spaniards the the conquistadores coming from the the reconquering they saw them on the shores of the beach and they saw these these humans in armor riding on a horse and they assumed the never seen a horse before they assumed it was a single
entity was a single monster and that for them was paranormal they didn't understand it was actually human riding on a horse with you know metal skin same thing with acupuncture i remember a time when i was growing up as a kid people thought eastern medicine acupuncture was nonsense well now at the
veterans administration the v.a. for some of my guys in combat they actually prescribed acupuncture as therapy it's not paranormal right and so there's all these examples in history where we think something is kooky and we're when a reality it's not it's just we don't understand it yet
and we have done such a good job of stigmatizing this conversation that the moment you even say the word paranormal or you say the word uf or anything like that people are conditioned without even thinking about it's reflexive to react to certain way
and we have to first deprogram ourselves first a little bit before we can start moving forward okay let's how do we just to destigmatize this conversation well first of all what's kooky you know what what do you think is kooky about something that's in our airspace that's performing in ways
that we can't replicate you know that people say well you know we we we spend millions if not billions of dollars putting a probe on Mars to try to find microbial life and by the way looks like that may happen that looks like they're actually maybe some evidence to suggest that
we spend lots of money trying to find technosignatures of intelligent life radio signatures in our own Milky Way right well is it possible within the four and a half billion years our planet's been here that maybe intelligent life maybe found us first is it possible could be you know we we have to stop putting these these limitations Joe when I was when I was in the medical program when I was learning to be microbalm microbiology and immunology in college we learned from our professor that
homo sapiens sapien as a modern species has been around roughly between 100 thousand to 200 thousand years now I'm not an expert but that's that's what they say it was only the Greeks two thousand years ago that introduced the idea that there's only two types of life forms on this planet
and either you are either a a plant or be your an animal and it wasn't the last 300 years so if you look at a 24 hour clock roughly the last five minutes and the 24 hours towards midnight we discovered another form of life that is neither plant nor animal that's been here with us on this planet and
that is the world of fungus during the Renaissance and the days of Newton we discovered that there was this other life for we've been sharing all along and we saw we pat ourselves on the shoulder and it wasn't the last hundred and twenty years think about it the last
ten seconds of our existence on this planet so to speak in a 24 hour clock as modern species we actually discovered the true dominant life form on this planet and in fact if you take all the biomass of every plant and the biomass of every animal and the biomass of every fungus and that it
all together it's still not equal the biomass of this hidden kingdom of life that's actually the dominant life form on this planet and that wasn't until we were able to curve glass and look through a little steel tube and famously shout little beasties little beasties
did we discover the world of microorganisms that yes live inside of you and yes live on the skin of the ISS space station yes live miles underneath the Arctic ice right that is the true dominant life form on this planet and it always has been
and it wasn't in the last until the last hundred and twenty years we discovered that it was impossible that there's something else that is just as normal to this world is it possible well the answer is a resounding yes of course it's possible because we're always discovering
new new new new ways life can exist when I was growing up as a kid I was told absolutely as a matter of fact all life form is derived from photosynthesis ultimately when you go all the way down it turns out that's not true it wasn't until we discovered the in the deepest deepest depths of our oceans
were these things called black smokers we discovered there are creatures that thrive with no light and they thrive off of something called a chemo synthesis a completely different way to metabolize energy to sustain life right so every time we put mother nature in a little box you always find a way to wiggle her way out and I think that's important when having this conversation because if there's one thing we know as human beings we're usually wrong and first well we exist and we do
send things to other planets we do send things into space it only makes sense that something far more intelligent than us that would be doing that and if they did they'd probably watch an emerging civilization which is essentially what we are right
and you like you said two hundred thousand years which is nothing the existence of homo sapiens they've gone from things that use stones and flint map to things that can fly things through the air i mean if you look at orville right and will be right when they flew the first airplane
you go from that to the Apollo 11 launch that's only like what fifty years that's right something crazy like that that's right that's nuts right and you just take that and everything moves exponentially you take that and you imagine a civilization that's been around
ten thousand years longer than us a hundred thousand years long a million years longer than us something that doesn't exist how about a hundred years we have a vault right right the last hundred and fifty years and we have in the last hundred fifty thousand years you know so
you know and then you have the other other for me i find you know when people say well the space is so huge and and you know is it possible that things are coming from outer space might my response has always been the same look i i don't know where they're from
i just know that they're here and and could they be from outer space sure they can be from interspace or even the space in between and and i say that because the universe is far more complex than then we give a credit for every time there was a time we had new
toning physics we thought there was a solution then all of us and Einstein comes along and we realize that weight space and time are actually connected and then everything's relative and all of a sudden now you have quantum mechanics which is
you know this spooky action at a distance right where the whole universe is behaving in a way that it shouldn't and yet that looks like the real way the universe works i often tell people we are as humans we we have five only five fundamental senses that we can
base our reality upon and if you can't touch it taste it here it's smell it et cetera we can interact with it and so where i live in Wyoming we have the beautiful night skies kind of like you have here in your in your studio here uh... three hundred days of unoccluded night
skies and as beautiful as those night skies are if you were to look at that same portion of the night sky through a radio telescope you would see a whole different reality around you you'd see nebula and you'd see things in different spectra that we can pick up you pick an ultraviolet and infrared
so you would see a whole different reality just like our cell phones right if you could see in cell phone vision and see in wi-fi and five g and gps you would interact with your environment completely different because you would see a reality so we can only interact with a very small sliver of the
reality that we can perceive because we're humans but most of reality is actually beyond that and then of course you have scalability issues the universe is is immensely huge and what scientists are now saying if you look in any direction you can see roughly within the visible that let me
emphasize visible horizon of our universe is about 13.9 billion light years plus or minus so that means in any direction i can see 13.9 billion light years with the right equipment what's a light year well it's as fast as light can travel in a year well light travels pretty fast
it's a fact it travels out of hundred eighty six thousand miles per second so seven and a half times around our planet in one second so imagine how far you can go in a year now multiply that by 13.9 billion and that by scientists
estimation so that if the universe end to end of our visible we're stuck in the middle is roughly 27 billion light years scientists are now saying that's only possibly only 10% of the known universe because the universe is so big and so vast and so far light will never have
time to reach earth so that's that's a hunt at at a minimum 100 billion light years right and so we are this little speck in the middle and as as crazy as that is to even try to conceive if you compare one atom inside the hill one hydrogen atom Avogadro's number right one times 10 to the negative
umpteen all the way down it is roughly the same level of scale as we are to the universe meaning that atom is the size of a human as we are the size of the universe as we are a human to the size of the universe so there is this and we as humans can only interact plus or minus with one
order of magnitude up or down otherwise the universe is simply too big or too small meaning most of the universe and reality lies in those scales we live in this little tiny tiny sliver and so you hurt my head well yeah we live in a tiny sliver and the idea that we're alone I think is
preposterous I really do I know people they constantly chime in with this well where's the evidence of you know Elon's famously said if the aliens are real they're very subtle I don't know why he says that though I think I think he probably says that because he doesn't want to sound like a cuckoys
work with NASA and spake sex you know I'd probably say some stuff like that too well let me ask you this as human beings right how many times do we fly over the serengeti in a helicopter right and let's say we want to monitor the health of a particular you know a herd of elephants right and so what happens are wilder bees we fly over we pick one we we shoot it with a tranquilizer it falls asleep we go down we do some test pull its blood now think about it from the perspective of
the wilder bees right it wakes up kind of meanders over to the watering hole in sis bill you're not going to believe this man but right something out of the sky came down and all of a sudden they were touching me and you know I woke
up in my butt hurt right what the hell was that right to this day even in china when we go into a zoo right and we have the panda bear exhibits what do we do we put so we don't disrupt the pandas we wear pandasuits now it sounds silly but you can actually get online and see zookeepers
wearing pandasuits because they don't want to scare they want to interfere as least as possible with the natural flora and fauna there inside the exhibit do you think that animals could was it was it reasonable to theorize that there's aliens amongst us when you say well two things so i don't want to be a basic let me but i also want to be very specific when we say aliens and then we also are we are we saying something from another planner we say non-human intelligence that looks
like us moves around with us so is it possible well we're doing it already with the panda bear so you know i don't it's not that we do a strategy that be very simple sure and especially if you have the technology now as far as the panda bear yeah there you go right
carrying little baby pandas exactly right boy those are shitty panda bear outfits too what the fuck in terrible looking they're pretty terrifying aren't they actually you put that in front of my dog he's gonna bark if like a dude could do a dog costume he like oh yeah fucking dog yeah well that's a wild panda bear not no that dude's not a panda bear that's crazy see that panda terrorists that looks like a fucking alien like it was really dark out and that guy grabbed you
and zapped you the tranquilizer you'd have an alien story but yeah my point is that we we always you know use camouflage right for obvious we do it in military right or camouflage that we camouflage uniform i stealth aircraft you know for camouflage sure you do you go hunting absolutely i do absolutely so so it's not it's not a stretch of the imagination to suggest anything coming here that doesn't want to provoke us probably wants to blend in now of course
do i have any type of empirical evidence to suggest that they are living among us i don't want i can say definitively that whatever it is it's here and and by the way you already have very senior people in our government that have said it's here whatever it is but these things could also be from under the water do you think it could be something that is as natural to earth as the little beasties were right when we first discovered them maybe maybe they've been here all along right so the the
ocean is largely undiscovered one of the things that people need to understand is that most of the exploration of the ocean is really essentially around the outside edges it's around the shores less than 10 percent so which is nuts a buddy of 90 percent of the ocean that's right like what we
know more about the moon than the bottom of our own ocean um and so it's so crazy yeah and that's fact and these underwater crafts like this enormous one that apparently was uh near this oil rig how many of them have been is there been more than one of those videos so let me tell you what I
can say from open source okay yeah okay um and then i'll tell you about a conversation i had without attribution because i don't don't want to get in trouble um everybody's one i'll say everybody a lot of people are familiar with the air forces program called the fast walker program which is a
program that was uh started by the air force among other things was to detect UFOs that's a fact to actually that's i was part of their mission okay uh to detect a lot of things adversarial technology but UFOs was one of them it's called the fast walker program
there was uh some information that was released publicly uh about a similar program the navy has i i can't talk about it because i don't have a proof to talk about it uh but obviously they're interested because they have equities underwater they're interested if there's anything underwater
that can perform beyond anything we have and i remember speaking to one individual uh who pulled me aside very privately and he said lube uh we were tracking this thing doing and i won't see the exact speed but hundreds and hundreds of knots underwater and it was bigger than our own submarine
right now you know big or submarines are right there yeah and i have some naively i just kind of came out what will what do you do when you encounter that you just said very honestly he said we go around just like that we go around have there been interactions with these things
i i i would not allow you to discuss any details about that that's not for me to discuss um you know i uh you know i gotta get drunk i'm a lightweight you know i gotta get you drunk let's go have some mercy find out what the fuck is up um so this thing is bigger than the sub
uh and they they followed it for hundreds of miles uh let me give you another a great great um event that occurred and i'll talk about this because it's not classified um portions that might be i don't know about so i should be fine um there's an individual who i'm aware of
who was a helipilot uh helicopter pilot back in the late 90s uh in the Caribbean and they were doing missile recovery so what happened is that the navy would test fire missiles and then they kind of run out of fuel they hit the water and they sink that at predetermined time they they pop
to the surface we grab it with a helicopter bring it back to shore and we we test it for telemetry and make sure that you know this cruise missile is doing what you're supposed to do so they're out there in the helicopter um frogman hanging down the line uh you got the helipilot got the
crew chief and and a other pilot the co-pilot looking all down into bubble and as they're about to grab this this cruise missile out of the ocean the something huge and round and what was described to me as black as a devil starts to rise to the surface the water begins to churn very much like
david frayver's description of the tic tac incident and the roiling water the frogman is so freaked out he's literally trying to climb the line back up he's like total panic at the disco right yeah and the helicopter is like we do it like an emergency ascend what the hell's going on here
and right as this thing is about and by the way it's the size of a small island and round right as this thing is about to break the surface it sucks the missile down and disappears geez and that was yeah and uh Dave frayver could probably tell you that story a little
biter than i can uh well you compare that to other things you got to say man's it being that guy hanging from that line no thank you we call that bait yeah but it didn't do anything to him nope i would have loved that experience yeah so that was uh that was one of the anic
doach that was revealed to us by one of the who's that see who's that guy that was hanging from the frogman the seal i don't know i don't know the bro come come talk to me please sir i only know the violent well but you and a fucking panda outfit yeah this guy's your voice tell me
what the fuck you saw i want to hear that story oh my god small island yep black is the devil in a small island and round yeah submarines look like this right they're not round right so yeah so that was uh that was one of the anic doach that was shared with us uh you know obviously portoriko
with the uh other there's been some uap's that have been recorded off there everybody knows about apladilla the apladilla instants i don't know about it oh i'm sure you do you know what i'm telling me wow trust me so you can look it up online there's a video taken by a dhs helicopter of a very
interesting object first it appears to be like a perhaps a balloon but then it does all sorts of weird stuff and as you're tracking it it enters the water without making a splash you can track it underwater then it comes out and splits into two and it's called and it's been analyzed over and over
again by a lot of experts it's called the agwadilla incident maybe i have seen this is a kind of blurry looking night vision that's it oh wow and so keep watching that and i'll tell you a little story about this uh this is a customs and border protection release this how fast is this thing going uh
well so if you look here they're looking at this through a a form of night vision i don't know the exact velocity all that is available but if you keep watching this something interesting happens so here it goes you're going to see this thing enter the water here there he goes underwater and
then it pops back up and splits into two keep their track and it's see no waves no wake and then it surfaces and then uh does something pretty pretty interesting here so keep watching so it's going high speed through the water underwater that's underwater then it breaks the surface
of the water again keep watching boom underwater underwater boom underwater underwater and then you'll see it split into two so i didn't see it split into two if you watch the rest of the video the video there it is oh there it is the video is actually really long but that's just one example um
you know this is uh these are you can see all these videos they're they're prevalent everywhere you see that the eight the aircraft on the bottom right you see the uap on top that's tracking it yeah yeah no wings no control services uh and it it keeps up with the a 10 and does all sorts of
interesting maneuvers right so that's an a 10 warthog and this thing's just following it yep like it's nothing do you think they're trying to let people see them i'll give you out of gas you know i i don't know i mean could it be a demonstration of capabilities we do that right every
time a a Russian surveillance aircraft comes by we launch two f-22s and we get real close to it and say hey you know right but but not even from a military perspective like if a civilization was trying to alert another civilization about its presence wouldn't it like go towards whatever
military vehicles it has and and show itself and then i would imagine that if they understand human beings the understand our psychology and they understand that some giant size of an island black as the devil circular craft that lands next to the Pentagon would fucking end the world we would
freak out no one would know what to do it would that would be stock market crash mass chaos no one would know what to do the way to introduce yourself i would imagine would be gradual over a long period of time to allow this this civilization to accept the fact these things exist and then slowly but
surely show versions of themselves yeah we call that sense a sensitization you sensitize right population or environment but you know the counter argument to that is that's a very human thing right we have as humans we we always it's it's almost innate we look at everything through anthropomorphic eyes we we look at you know our pet dogs and and we give them human names and we do things like that because we assign human value to things and because we have intentions and motivations
but most of nature isn't that way like for example when a shark bite a surfer he's not wanting to hurt the surfer he's just hungry the shark's hungry i don't care if you're a seal or whatever you don't want to i'm not trying to inflict pain i'm just want to feed my belly intended motivation
is a very human thing and we have to we have to i don't want to say resist the urge because it's almost impossible to do it but we have to recognize that there are there are things that may exist that aren't don't have human motivation meaning right maybe they don't care about sensitizing us
maybe they do but maybe it's like a like a computer right maybe it's binary maybe there's some sort of binary thought process just information in and and information out so that's the one one of the aspects i've always been very careful with is to assign human traits to something that is
very likely not human right but would you have to assign human traits to it or would you have if you you could look at it from the perspective of these things are aware of our psychology they're aware of how we function and they're aware of the fragility of our worldview no point you don't
have to have human intention to have a strategy for doing the least amount of harm to this emerging civilization to shay in fact there's examples of that let me reinforce your point because there's examples of that my background being science in nature you know when lionesses
stalk the zebras you know they get very low into the grass they don't want to be seen right they're not motivated necessarily because they don't want to speak to her but they do it it's it's it's it's almost instinctual right it's it's part of their DNA part of their wiring to have a
low profile low observability and to get closer to their target whether it's prior anything else so you're right that mean there are there are examples in nature that also can suggest that so it's a very good point yeah i mean it just makes sense that if it understands us if it's absurd look
we understand the behavior characteristics of slots right right we we study them we know what they do and it would just make sense that if they're studying us they would understand our behavior characteristics like i mean the tiger recognizes the behavior characteristics of the zebra doesn't
right exactly studies it and so it knows what it has to do to get close to the zebra so yeah there's no way they would come here with ignorance yeah and i think also it's very likely that what we are exists in many many places in the universe and that what we are is what they used to be
so they probably understand what we are well we do that in the amazon don't we yeah and in and after tribes lost tribes are remote right separated by outside human contact we study them we studied them from afar but we do the same thing yes yeah no no question and obviously if they
are the super intelligent creatures they evolved to become super intelligent creatures so there's probably some sort of universal process that takes place amongst all intelligent creative life that has a lust for innovation they consistently make better and better versions of these fine
crafts until they figure out how to make this warp drive thing that these things apparently have another thing is odd is that you see the same kind of things that Kenneth Arnold saw in 1950 you see the same kind of things today it's almost like you know going somewhere in the 1950s and
seeing a 55 Chevy and then in 2024 seen another 55 so they're still driving around 55 Chevy's like what the fuck well they do do that in Cuba right but that's just because they don't have access to other cars yeah I have a choice really good mechanics sure people it is it's my my my my
I'm really resisting the urge of continuing to smoke this thing right now okay if you'll terrible don't feel terrible my wife is gonna give me help for this because I don't know if there's anything wrong with cigars man like I was saying before I never heard of a single person dying from cigars you don't nail them take a little bit of smoking your mouth it's pleasurable it's nice I would just think that that's what they would do because that's what we would do
and I think that's what intelligent life would do we've recognized something that wasn't quite as intelligent as us we don't rush into these you know remote tribes and vaccinate them right what what do we do we don't give them but the you know the thing is like they have done some things like
they gave Starlink to this one tribe and the kids all started watching porn you hear about that make sure yeah you came real probable yeah they're all lazy hanging out on their phones all day which makes sense yeah that's what we do yeah you know tribal leaders are not happy you bring up
another very interesting point is there a natural glide slope or a natural evolution to evolution meaning any species that reaches a certain point is there a natural progression of any intelligent species to progress to the point like his all life is expansive
right life doesn't contract life expands whether it's bacterial life whether it's animal life or human life it is there are certain biological functions to procreate multiplying continue to explain right so is that a is that a universal norm that is is is that part of like fractals and geometry throughout the universe is that part of the blueprint of all life or is it only specific to life here on earth and that's a great question because there's probably arguments to suggest that
yeah there probably is a natural there's a natural blueprint for physics in the universe there probably since life has to abide by physics probably a natural potentially natural blueprint for the evolution of all life whether again bacterial or animal or human or anything else non-human it
makes sense it makes sense that everything moves into greater levels of complexity from single celled organisms to human beings that pilot drones we just keeps going in the same general direction observably here and if the universe is infinite that means there's infinite versions of what we're seeing here with us that exists throughout the cosmos and probably in infinite steps along the way right right 100 years from now 1000 years from now well not to make light of it but
I'll tell you recently I've uh so I've I've learned over the years it's it's there's nothing more expensive than than a cheap lawyer so I've got a couple good lawyers that I that I work with on just contractual stuff and one of them is named Ivan Hanel they call him the bull and I've learned to
appreciate the the infinite complexity of law and legal right so right so if there is this natural progression as we're talking about life I mean we've even seen in our in our own human interactions right there's this this intricate complexity of how things work and how even in the way we behave
with each other socially right you know you look at a when I was in the um in the government you could look at a terrorist link analysis and that link analysis still follows the fractal patterns that the patterns in our our our lungs the patterns of lightning the patterns of super medgellanic
clouds and galaxies super clusters of galaxies all have that same pattern and it's not just a physical pattern it's a social pattern right and so again um I get not to make joke of it but I you know I'm learning that it's beyond these patterns are beyond just physical patterns you know
even in something as as as silly but fundamental as law there are these patterns I continue to spin off and and whatnot so um yeah I can appreciate that I think I think we're at a point now as a species where we probably should be having this conversations and I'll also say this Joe
there are parts of this conversation I don't feel the government has any place there is definitely a national security conversation here but the conversation we're having as you can tell is far beyond national security right we're talking philosophical psychological
sociological theological implications that I'm not sure I want my government necessarily dictating for me what I should think about this well the government's supposed to be working for us ultimately and they are supposed to be us you know the problem is when you have access to
information that's above and beyond the normal person's realm that could affect everyone on this planet this understanding that we are not alone but not only are we're probably not even alone here it's not even that something is visiting us something's probably here all the time
you know and this is the main thought about these underwater vehicles well life is abundant on this planet isn't and it's and it thrives in places that we thought life could never thrive before it's it's everywhere it's almost seems like a natural function if you have certain situations
and circumstances on a rock somewhere then life pops up it seems like if we can actually find it on Mars and they're like you were saying before they may have found some sort of an evidence of but micro biological life if we find it on Mars and we find it somewhere they think maybe Europa
underneath the surface that's right and Europa probably is powered by volcanic vents the same way the bottom bar ocean is there might be some sort of life forming chemo synthesis not photosynthesis so and this is just what we know about here you know imagine all the different potential realities
in terms of what a planet's atmosphere could be like you know you're dealing with larger planets that have more gravity you're dealing with different kinds of temperature variations look at Titan it's got a methane by the way that's organic chemistry right it's it's got methane clouds
right right so there are things that thrive in these types of environments cowfarts up there too yeah too many but yeah I mean you're you're you're absolutely correct I think we have again this goes back to the original point of every time we try to put mother nature in a box she always
finds a way to wiggle her way out of it right prove us wrong if the one thing we're right about is that we're always wrong right um how much it whatever I don't know if you can talk about this but how much of an effort is there to try to detect things under the surface of the ocean I would defer
that to the United States Navy and maybe Noah no oceanographic oh yeah no no no yeah not the biblical Noah oh Jesus yeah no no I mean no I mean no I mean is that far back national ocean ographic and an atmospheric speaking to go in that far back I mean how much of I gotta think that
when people are delving into the stuff they they look at ancient scriptures and ancient these different depictions of things whether it's the Viamanas in the Hindu texts and whether it's in the Bhagavad Gita there's all these different stories of in Ezekiel and the Bible there's things
yeah that seem to if I was a person living thousands of years ago and I encountered a flying saucer or encountered some spaceship from another planet I would probably describe it in a way they're describing it yeah I mean I mean like just like sort of the the Aztecs today's magic is
tomorrow's technology right um so I can tell you when I went to Italy I spoke to one of the senior I think it was a one senior one of these senior Vatican academics and he said to me he says look the Vatican doesn't have problem with this topic this is something in fact in the 6th up into the
1600s it was heretical to presume or assume that mankind was the only if you will incarnation of God representation of God it was actually because but in essence you're putting limitations on the dominion of what God can and can't do right and there are these that scrolls in fact that are in
the Vatican archives that discuss it's a conversation between a Roman soldier and a Roman general where they describe there's something called eclipus eclipus and Latin means like son eclipse right it's the shape of the Roman shield and they talked about these flaming Roman shields in the sky
that would follow them from battle space to battle space and and and mr. Jacques Malay could probably expound much more upon that than I can but this is just a brief conversation I had with with someone there but that's very slippery he is very slippery you know he don't commit to anything
now he looks at your sideways yeah he's he did a lot a lot of good stuff oh yeah and he's a incredibly smart guy great great researcher of just phenomenal you know big reason that guy in closing counts of the third kind the guy he's the inspiration for the French guy I heard that
yeah I never had a guts to ask him I figure I'm sure it gets tired of being heard of but let me see when you talk to him that guy that's the guy but you know there's there's there's a lot of and when you look at the Vatican is I mean really it's probably the world's oldest most capable
intelligence organization because they have priests around the world that people will report miracles to right and or in confessions to and eventually that gets filtered up to the Vatican so you know talk about you know the world's first CIA and KGB it was the it was Vatican baby
those guys had a had it going on and so no wonder they have all this archival excuse me archival information and some of it relates to UAP wow yeah it only makes sense that these things if they're here now they've probably been visiting us since back where on horseback yeah and probably quite a
bit before then and maybe that's the scariest thing for people they might be responsible for us being humans in the first place well you remember the story's right of even Christopher Columbus coming over to the new world there were some interesting accounts when they're on the water
of potentially some sort of UAP interaction I did not know that yeah you can look it up online this is all open source but you can look type it up and there were some very interesting accounts and even you know old old old sailor accounts you know of you know people say well you know old
sailors also talked about you know big giant crack and stuff like that but there was always an element of truth to it now we realize there are giant squid of the Pacific right not only that crackings they think likely did exist yeah well they because octopus when they brought they don't
leave anything but they did find fossilized suction cups from they still do yeah it's called the great squid of the Pacific we find yeah that yeah that for sure but they think maybe perhaps even an enormous octopus yeah that probably actually did go after boats you know we call we we call
them sea monsters back then but really you know we we laugh about it now but that turns out there are sea monsters you're just called great white sharks and big nails you know that's a fucking sea monster you know right you know it was a real thing a great white shark is now I mean
absolutely go swimming with a great white shark and tell me that's not a monster right exactly so you know it's we just realize though it's just part of nature it's probably very existing paradise tigers are monsters right absolutely you know especially at night when you don't
have a flashlight that thing behind the bush that's monster right you know right did you find anything on the Columbus stuff one thing I'm seeing is from my AXN Aliens episode now you know it's legit it's all crap something crashed into the water but I can't find
yeah there was some reports of some interesting lights that the crew had reported and it was actually he put it down in his logbook something about some interest now some folks will come back and say well that's St. Elmo's fire which it absolutely could be you know what is St. Elmo's
fire is a static charge it occurs on the wing tips of aircraft even the old sailors would report it in certain environmental conditions there is this weird greenish blue plasma glow that will often sometimes be seen on the tips of wing tips on aircraft you can it's actually there's some really
good pictures of it online and even on the old marinerships up towards the sails and the mass and they believe it's it's it has to do with static charge and under certain environments it creates this this energized plasma and you can see it and so is that similar to like ball lightning well
it could be here you go so and it called it St. Elmo's fire see that fucking badass yeah and so this is yeah it's either around the cockpit of the aircraft whoa and by the way you see the patterns it's fractal right look at that ship so very very interesting how St. Elmo's fire you know
can cause some people to you know perhaps see things and say it's also there might be seeing that yeah they might right but there there are some accounts of of ancient mariners who who report strange bizarre things yeah again it makes sense that was one of the more weird parts
of Bob Lazar's story was that they've always been here and that they they view us as containers containers interesting yeah this and he said there's a very thick document that relates to the the implications that it has on religion and like what what they the way they talk about us
well religion calls us vessels right yeah that's religious scripture and a lot of different religions refer to humans as as vessels you know I'm certainly not a religious expert so I you know I don't want to pontificate here and and say something that's inaccurate but you know that
that doesn't surprise me well I think that the term was I think they were saying vessels for souls but if you imagine that it being transcends its physical limitations of biological reality right so the biological evolution that led us to become a homo sapiens over the course of you know X amount
of millions of years that's a very slow process but technological innovation and technological progress is very quick very quick especially when you add in artificial intelligence exponential that's right yeah so if something comes along that is a life form that exists outside of biology
like something that we create which it seems like we're doing right now like AI right when does that become sent to you right now is that a life form you know not by a lot of you that thing in order for it to ever occur maybe that thing needs a thing with a soul that has a creative
desire that has a lust for innovation and continues to make better and better things and maybe that thing only exists in biology and maybe the problem with artificial life is it has no motivation and that we have it's especially if itself programmable right so one of the very bizarre things
that was recently discovered about artificial intelligence they gave artificial intelligence a certain amount of time to to code something to figure something out and when it didn't have enough time it changed its code to give itself more time fascinating yeah like what the fuck you talking
about it is deciding that it doesn't like its limitations so it won't have any of the biological motivation we have right it won't have ego it won't have materialism it won't have a desire for status it won't have all the things that lead us to do some of the horrible things that human beings do
I could not agree more and also some of the great things that human beings do but maybe it also doesn't have any desire to create and maybe the only way for its kind of life to exist is for a human being a biological thing that's super intelligent in comparison to the rest of the
animals on this planet that innovates to the point where it creates this artificial life I'm gonna share something very very personal with you and I know when I say with you I know it's with everybody else but you know I part of my struggle is I can't I can't urge the
government to be transparent and I'm not transparent myself right it's it's hypocritical so let me share with you a very personal story because you bring something up that I think is fascinating I'm a human being but if for what a reason I get into a car accident and I lose an
arm I'm still do well as on do right in fact if I lose my legs and all my arms still do so my body doesn't define why I'm and my intellect right if I suffer a traumatic brain injury let's say I'm an Afghanistan in a bad but TBI and my my my brain is compromised I'm still
blue and so so what makes you what makes Joe Joe well it's not not your physical self and probably not even your intellectual self my my mother I was very close to my mother my mother was was was incredible human being and I'll share this story with you and take away with it what you want
I was very young maybe two two and a half three years old and I remember watching a show with my mother one my very first memories and in this TV show I don't remember what show it was but I remember that a shark had eaten a dog and I was shocked my first understanding that what death was and I looked at my mom I said mom what just happened and she said well son the shark ate the dog so what does that mean? It says well the dog is not coming back the dog died and so
well does everything die? She said well yes son everything dies it said well mom you're not you're not gonna die you're mom all right you gave me life she said no son one day I'm gonna die and I remember spending from that day forward Scott is my witness I spent every single day of my life
knowing one day my mother was going to die and it terrified me it was very very close with her and one day that day came my mother was diagnosed with cancer and she started her body started failing and despite the best efforts she we knew she wasn't gonna make it and you know when you love somebody
sometimes it doesn't sound right but sometimes you deceive them you know they want to know they're in a bad state physically and mentally and say you know am I gonna make it and you say yeah of course you're gonna make it right knowing full well that there's probably not good chance
are gonna make it and so we're in the hospital and my mother had at this point been in the probably a state of coma for about a week and it was just me my wife and a couple members of the family very very sad moment and my mother began this process of death called you know when someone's
gonna die there's something called a death rattle and it's when the mucus begins in the back of the throat to to congeal and it makes breathing it can be very unnerving for the people who have to witnesses it's very very calm it's called death rattle it's the body beginning to shut down
and I knew something told me my mom my mom was gonna go very quickly within the next 30 seconds to a minute so long story short my mother's body was at that point it was a husk and empty husk it was broken her brain had shut down and yet the very moment she passed away within five seconds I
knew it it was just something weird something reached and said this is it she's going on and I reached over the bed and I looked at my mom her eyes all of a sudden opened up and she looked right at me and even though her brain had been compromised and wasn't working her body was
was was was nothing anymore and she was a beautiful woman she was she was she was she worked for playboy she was a beautiful lady at one time a model she was she her body resembled nothing of what she did she looked at me and she passed but we communicated and I knew there was something
else at that moment more to a human being more than just a body more than just a brain there is something that is that is beyond the physical and even intellectual part of what it means to be human and I felt it and everybody in the room felt that it was undeniable you can call it a
soul and it a cheat whatever you know you can put a label on it I don't know what it's called I don't know what it is but I do know that was the essence of my mother and the moment she passed it was this weird feeling because as my mother laid their dead in the bed it wasn't my mother
anymore that essence whatever made my mother my mother and you could see the light in her eyes it was like someone turning off the light switch is there and I've been around death a lot it'd never be you know it's terrible horrible thing especially in warfare but but this was something something
visceral this was something far more intimate this was this cut to my soul and I could recognize it and she recognized me and I recognized her even though that the brain functions were gone so so I guess my point is I absolutely believe there's something more to the human experience than simply
a tangible body and in a brain and I witnessed this firsthand now people can say all sorts of they want I don't care you know I got enough haters out there anyways you know if they want to think that I'm trying to you know hope that my mother has a soul and she goes somewhere I'm just
telling you what I experienced and other people experience too and it was it was proof for me at that moment that there's much more to to us as human beings I had a very similar feeling when I went to my grandfather's funeral and I saw him in the casket um because it was it was an open
casket and I knew he's gone I'm like that's not him that's right it's just a shell you and you can sense it you feel it yeah it was a very strange feeling yeah you know and obviously he's wearing makeup because they've got a minute suit and the whole deal but I was like that is not my
grandfather he's not there anymore and it's not like you're trying to override this acknowledgement that they're dead you know they're dead yeah it's just that whatever made that person that person it's not in the body right it's gone there's a bizarre feeling that we have that you don't
I don't think it's words for it yeah it's a feeling it is and you can and it's again it's not an intellectual or even a physical thing yeah um that the idea that we're containers for souls is just so goddamn creepy this is a farm of souls
I'm not familiar with that hypothesis but it sounds interesting also scary perhaps what's scary for us because you know but yeah like you you got to wonder why we are so different than every other creature in that we have this insane insatiable desire to change our environment
constantly build bigger skyscrapers and to move the earth and we're constantly inventing new technology I mean it seems to be an instinct that's a part of us and I agree this gradual progression of life is life goes from intelligent biological life to super intelligent
whatever it is whatever whatever kind of technology creates it that life is not as simple as this natural selection model that we have here that we think applies to life that like this is a type of life and then there's a life that this thing creates well you know evolution isn't just
a physical thing is it evolution is is the ability to change within one's environment over over time and that's a that's a that's a fascinating concept you bring up because some speculate that it is inevitable that human beings will eventually evolve into something we're just a link in a much
longer chain right and that all intelligent life potentially goes through this process and that this is a natural process where eventually we actually make ourselves extinct not not in the way where we kill ourselves right we wind up creating a life form whether it's AI or we start enhancing
ourselves with more and more machine interface and and and you know life doesn't have to necessarily be organic right you could have potential to be silicon is very very close to carbon in some cases so you know is it possible that that life it is it is destiny for all life eventually to evolve
itself out of existence and bring in or usher in a new type of life form yeah is it possible I I mean certainly from a technological perspective I mean asking Elon Musk it seems that we're you know we're we're making a lot of advancements right now to augment the human experience
and given as you said how technology progresses exponentially very quickly in the next 200 years I mean we might be there is this sort of conversation being had in the government about what these things potentially are I not to my knowledge and I sure hope not because I don't think the government
this is a conversation this is where I go back to this is a conversation that involves a lot of people you know whether it's your your priest or your rabbi or your mom or it is your philosophy teacher at the university I think I think we're getting into an area now that is beyond national
security and I'm honestly Joe I'm not comfortable with my government taking that aspect on because frankly I don't trust my government to manage what I should think about something tell me what is I'm okay with right don't tell me how to think about it don't tell me how to process that you
know because now you're now you're overstepping your balance it's also other human beings the government is just human beings right human beings shouldn't have this insane knowledge and keep it from other human beings well in fact it's it's illegal especially in our democracy there's
some this type of stuff is supposed to be discussed with certain members of Congress and certain elements of the executive branch and when somebody I don't care if you're in the government or in a religion or anything like that this goes to the to the fundamental pillar of something that
that agrees me which is corruption now when I say corruption let me let me backtrack a little bit my father recently died this this last father stayed not this one but the one before and I had the privilege of of knowing he was sick and so we took a road trip down to Miami about a month and
a half before he died and he never told me he was sick but but I knew something was wasn't right I knew my father for a long time and something wasn't right started losing weight and I could see he wasn't eating as much and there were telltale signs and he didn't want to tell me and I asked my
father almost almost flippantly I said dad I think we're probably somewhere by St. Louis and I said dad what is the greatest threat to humanity to humans what it's greatest threat now I say flippantly because I'm thinking you know terrorism right and this and that my father thought for a
second he looks at me so son it's corruption I said what do you mean corruption like like like financial corruption governmental corruption he says no corruption at its heart is when you are willing to bypass your own moral code your own ethics for something else and whether it's its
financial corruption religious corruption governmental corruption or even moral corruption when you start to compromise on your own values it's a very quick downward spiral to to utter chaos and he know that firsthand because my father was in the Bay of Pigs invasion he was a political
prisoner of Castro he actually fought with Castro against Batista and then when Castro went communist my father joined the folks here and the friendly folks at the CIA and was part of the invasion of the Bay of Pigs he spent two years in Castro's prisons being tortured so when he came
to this country this country offered us opportunities that no other country could or would and the reason why Cuba failed was because of corruption and he said look corruption will be the end of all and and if if it's a very quick downward spiral with democracy that if democracy becomes corrupt
you now have tyranny right and so every time someone in the government is willing to compromise a little bit on the value of what it means to serve the American people and they forget that they become corrupt and that actually erodes the very essence of what democracy is and what this
country is about and that is why it is so important that the individuals in our government that don't want to have this conversation and don't want to talk to Congress and are making the unilateral decision on your behalf and the American taxpayer in my behalf that's wrong they don't have the
right to do that there is a process of rules and laws we have in this country that we've all agreed to we're going to buy by and that includes them and they don't have the right to bypass that even if they think they're doing it for the right reason I disagree with that I think I think this democracy only works because we all agree it works right and the moment you begin to compromise on that all of democracy is at risk and I mean that sincerely it's not a it's not a slow downward
spiral let's quick and you can hit rock bottom very very quickly and the only reason why this government works is because we all have faith and and a commitment to what we consider are the American values and and serving the American people and you know before the people by the people so I think it's very dangerous when when elements in the government and I want I don't want to villainize a whole government because the government's full of great people they do great things they keep safe so
I'm talking about the minority few some of these people who have actually gone after mean will probably continue to come after me to try to discredit me and everything else despite the volumes of documentation that I have in my possession and others because they don't want to have the
conversation and they they are happy with the status quo and to me that is a greater threat than any UAP could ever have on humanity it's it's the greatest threat is how we perceive ourselves and what we are willing to do to keep this a secret in violation of the commitment and
and what we have done to we've sworn in some cases to uphold the values of this country and I think that's a concern for me and that's why I don't want certain elements having this conversation of what this means you know the bigger macro level conversation because I don't
think they're qualified I'm not qualified I know that I'm damn sure they're not qualified here so this is why I think this type of national level conversation is so important at the end of the day it's not up to me people say Lou what do you think you know what to tell what I think it doesn't
matter what I think but matters what you think here's the information here's a data you figure it out don't ask me for what this means because I'm not entitled to that I didn't I didn't earn that privilege and I would definitely never take it away because that is that is that is sacred that's
you that's up to you to decide for yourself and this is this is part of my frustration with this overall conversation because there are elements that don't want you to have this conversation well said Lou thank you very much man thanks for being here I really enjoyed it really enjoyed
our conversation Joe this has been fantastic and truly truly an honor and privilege you have one hell of a responsibility you are you are look I got to tell you I don't ever get nervous doing an interview you were the first one and probably the only one I will ever have been nervous coming in
just simply because not because of me because of you the responsibilities you have on your shoulders to have a communicate you reach a global audience people are listening to this conversation right now and by the way they're part of this conversation very much so right that is an enormous
responsibility you have a voice in some cases that exceeds presidents the technology you now have it available to your fingertips and this wonderful staff you have you are influencing the world and I can't imagine that type of responsibility I mean there are world leaders that don't have
the voice you have and so for me it is a profound profound honor and privilege to be with you here today and your wonderful audience you know if I never see you again I wish you the best of luck you are you're doing America a great service be honest be candid speak your mind that's all I can say
as a you know little chicken here in in in in the United States you you've got big shoulders man you got a big weight on a lot of responsibility on your back and I mean this is your freaking me out man I'm telling you but thank you very much thanks again I really appreciate everything you've
said and I appreciate your everything you said about disclosure and how important it is I couldn't agree more Joe it's been my honor and privilege sincerely my honor too thank you very much yes sir all right bye everybody