Use Experience to Build a Unique Perspective

Foreign. Welcome to the Jody Mayberry Show. This time we're going to have a wonderful conversation with. I'm going to go on a limb and say perhaps my favorite person from Kansas City, Missouri, Chip Hu. It's so good to have you, Jody. It's great to be with you. It's great to see you again, my friend. A lot of fond memories of times we've had a chance to collaborate and just hang out together and I really appreciate that.

There's a lot of people in Kansas City, so knowing that, that I'm up there, at least in the top few in terms of your preference, makes me feel great. Well, I'll tell you, two things put you top of the list. One, you're a heck of a guy. Two, you took me out for barbecue. Anybody that takes me out for barbecue automatically moves up seven notches on my list. Wow, seven. How did you, how did you arrive at that number? That's a pretty specific number. Prior to being a park ranger, I was a financial

analyst at a commercial bank. So I'm really good with spreadsheets. There it is. All right, well, look, I'll tell you what, brother. The next time that you're down this way, as we say, we'll just go ahead and recreate that barbecue experience. Oh, yeah, we're going to do it. We're going to have barbecue. And there is a spot in Kansas City I wanted to visit for years. Maybe we can go together. And you have a world renowned World War I museum in Kansas City. I've always wanted to

visit. That is an incredible museum. We're very proud of that. A lot of people don't really realize that's there. It's kind of like a really well kept secret. Of course, you with your background would have a, would have more insight, but yeah, no, it's an amazing monument and museum, Liberty Memorial there in that whole park area. They do a lot of events and

things like that throughout the years there as well. But no. What a tribute to the veterans of World War I. Now, I'm just, I'm talking kind of out the side of my head here. I don't know if this is true, but my understanding was that was the only World War I monument in the nation at one time. I don't know if that's still true. I'm not certain. I didn't know I would end up talking about that or I would

have done my research. This is going off topic of where I thought we would go, but that museum actually worked with a really great podcaster. Dan Carlin to develop the audio experience of that museum because he has a podcast called Hardcore History and does a phenomenal job. They worked with him to develop part of

that. Yeah, I not. I did not know that. And I've actually heard of Dan Carlin, which surprises me because it's hard for me to remember people's names and I'm clearly not, not an expert on podcaster and, and that talent base. But I would say that being history for me, I mean, I don't know how it is for you, but for me, I always feel I'm a little weak in that area. Like, I should be better, I should know more. I feel like the teachers in school put a lot of time into

teaching me these things. It wasn't unimportant. But for me, for whatever reason, you know, being a poor student at the time, maybe I feel like I haven't retained a lot. So going back and when I visit museums like that, I will spend like people don't like to go with me, Jody, because I will spend so much time on like the first 10 minutes. You know, when people will walk in, they'll spend like 10 minutes in the first

little spot. I'll be there for two hours. You know, I think when I went to the Museum of Natural History in Chicago, I didn't make it much out of the Native American exhibit. You know, I spent hours there. And then I went to the American, the African American Museum of natural history in D.C. i thought, well, I've got time. I'm going to knock out this museum. Then I'm going to go down to the Holocaust Museum. I've got like, you know,

like I can day here to do that. I didn't make it through a third of the African American Museum of Natural History. I like I was there. It was so fascinating. I get so, like, it's so much to learn. But saying that, to say I am sure that this, that Dan Carlin probably is quite schooled. He'd be somebody that would be a great tour guide through

something like that. Yeah, well, I have more I could add there, but I just realized I mentioned you live in Kansas City and I've said nothing else about you other than you're my pal. So I should mention what more is there. Yeah, that's all the qualification you need. Chip retired with the Kansas City Police Department as a major. We'll get in more into the work he does now. But as a major, that is quite a role to have in a major police department in a big city.

Also tied in with that, he. Chip was a local celebrity for a while because he was on Kansas City swat. I

went out with when Chip and I went out to have barbecue in Kansas City. Just a regular citizen actually recognized him from being on TV in Kansas City swat. That was kind of fun to see a fan recognize you, Chip. Yeah, Well, I was just glad he was a fan. Those reality shows. And of course, this was back in the day. It was a long time ago now, you know, you're going back 20 years almost, Jody, to get back to the point where we

filmed that show. And I don't. And this is not taking anything away from people who watch reality TV or people that produce it. I've got good friends that produce it. But a lot of it's contrived, and people don't really realize that. They feel like, well, they're watching this life unfold or these people's lives unfold in real time, and that's just not accurate. There's a storyline. They shape it. They'll script

some of it. They'll have a theme that they want to pursue, and they'll edit it selectively to ensure that that goal is met. Saying all that to say that people might get a sense of watching the show, like, oh, I understand your work, or, oh, I understand who you are, or, oh, I understand the dynamic in your team. And the reality of it is, no, it's a bit of fiction, It's a bit of theater. So some people might see me out and not particularly be fans

of what we. The kind of work we did or the way we showed up. But that one turned out okay. Yeah. Have you had that happen? Have you had people approach you that did not like you from the show? Mostly like, what do they call it? Trolls? Is that a thing where people get on and is that the right thing? I'm not a very. I'm not very good with technology or technology lingo, but on the interwebs, you know, when people get on there and.

And they. They kind of snipe you. That stuff has happened, of course, but you're going to have that. You could spend your entire life helping old ladies across the street, and there's still going to be somebody that wants you dead. I mean, it. You know, that's just the nature of people. Right. For the most part, though, I would say people that I've interacted with have been supportive. There's so many people out there that really appreciate the job that's done generally by law

enforcement. They certainly appreciate the function. Even if they had a Bad interaction. They understand the necessity for a republic to have good quality law enforcement. So most of my interactions, honestly, Jody, even people. It's so cool, too. Even people that I've arrested, a couple people I've taken to, arrested and gone to prison that I've bumped into, have actually been very,

very pleasant. You know, I think that goes back to the way that we were able to interact with them in that particular context or situation. Just being able to maintain some respect for them and to honor their dignity as best you can in a situation where you might be. You know, I

mean, you're depriving somebody of their freedom, quite frankly. But it's a long answer to say that most of my interactions with clientele have been positive, and most of the critics that I've experienced have been anonymous or they really had no sense of the work we did. They really didn't understand it so much. They understood it maybe colloquially from maybe fictional depictions of it on television, like, hey, I watched, you know, Blue Bloods or something. And therefore, I have an idea

of. Of what law enforcement does. And I think some of those shows have elements of truth in them, clearly. Right. But then they're also fictionalized because you want drama, you want effect, you want. I mean, if you follow me around for 24 hours and watched everything I did, you'd probably get pretty bored for most of it. You'd just be like, okay, there, There. There he goes. Okay, he's. Yeah. Driving to

the store to get another monster. Got it. Oh, man. Well, Chip and I had the chance to be together for several days in Kansas City a few years ago. I don't even remember how long it was ago, Chip. But you put on a conference with Tanner Brock. That was just delightful. I met people there that I still keep in touch with. And. And before we get into your work, I want to share two stories. One that is not related to you, one that is related to you. That when you hear

this, you'll get an understanding of a little more of who Chip is. The first is about your brother. Who. Chip's brother is one cool guy. And you see Chip. And Chip is a big guy, but his brother, my goodness, if you walk into a room and say, I want to mess with somebody, you would not pick his brother. You would probably go the other way. He is a big fellow, and he is also a very nice guy. You just a lot of fun. Enjoy talking to

him. Well, we're at this conference, and Dan Cockrell is there, and Chip, I don't even know if you saw this happen. But Dan and your brother had a really good rapport going and Dan really curious about law enforcement and Chip's brother is a trainer and all that. So Dan and him talked a lot about training law enforcement. So one time Dan sneaks your brother sitting at the table. Dan sneaks up behind him and puts him in a chokehold. And I, there was that

brief moment. I thought it was the last time I would ever see Dan Cockrell. Because you just don't do things like that to a law enforcement officer who, especially as big as he is, especially with his training now, he was gentle on Dan and never took Dan straight to the ground. But I always joke about that because I just had that brief moment where I thought, this is it for Dan. It's over. Dan had a near death experience. Well, and Jody, you, you met Mike. So you know, you. I've got several

brothers and most of them are in law enforcement, right. Either active or retired. And they're all really in really good shape. My biggest brother is Mark. He's. He's a big guy. He just retired recently from law enforcement, but he's, he's a really big fella. He was on the, he was an Olympic alternate in the 1984 Olympics for boxing. He boxed in the army. Big guy. And you find this hard to believe. I'm actually 20 pounds heavier than Mike. I'm bigger than he is. But he's so

damn muscular that, you know, he has that presence, right? And, and height wise we're pretty much the same, I think. But he, the just his conditioning, right? The way that he carries himself, he does look like a much bigger guy. People say that all the time, like, oh, your brother's huge. And it's like, it's the way he, it's his composition and the way he carries himself. He's got a good presence. You didn't get to meet my brother Vern. World class

detective. He's a sergeant now working in violent crimes. He's coming up on toward the end of his career as well. But another great jiu jitsu player, great shape. You know, I mean that all of them take themselves, you know, they take that really seriously. That's like part of our, you know, part of the family culture. Even my sister, I'll just say this dude, this is my sister is amazing dude.

My sister. I don't talk about my family a lot, by the way. I think this is the first podcast I've ever been on where I. You got me going on my family. And the reason I don't is. I think their reputations speak for themselves. They're amazing people. But my sister, like, she's, like, an inspiration to me. She. Number one, how she came up and all the things she had to contend with and the way she helped hold our

family together. But she's like, my mom passes away, and my sister's, like, already 50, I think, and my mom and her best friends and. And my mom got this rare blood cancer, and it didn't take her long from the time she was diagnosed until she had passed. And, you know, my mom was my sister's best friend. So my sister's kind of a little bit listless. Like, she's like, you know, what do I do with myself? She was over there every day. My mom would make her breakfast. They would

spend time together. She'd take her shopping. And so my sister's like. You know, she had been athletic as a child, but she had fallen out of that, you know, in her professional life, being so busy, didn't really work out or anything. And she's like. Calls me up and she's like, I think I'm gonna. I think I want to start running. And I was like, oh, so, okay. Well, I mean, that sounds like a good hobby. And so she goes, what advice do you have? I said, well, sis, I'm not. I'm not a runner,

per se. I'm a guy who runs. I go, but, you know, I would get on a couple of these websites. I certainly would buy some good shoes, and I would probably start out walking. You know, that's what I would do. And so she calls me back two days later, Jody. And she's crying. Never forget this phone call. And she's, like, breathing hard and crying and trying to catch her breath. She goes, I just. I went out and I tried, and I only made it down the path. I was only a half a mile. And I just.

I just couldn't. I can't do it. She's crying, you know, and I'm in. And I'm thinking, oh, this poor girl, like. And I couldn't think of anything to say. So I said, well, sis, maybe running's not for you, right? That was my right. I'm just trying to make. I'm just trying to calm the situation. Maybe she can pick up pickleball or something, right? Okay, Jody. That's what I said. Eighteen months later, she had ran a marathon in every state in the Union and ran a couple of those.

Whatever they call it when it's farther than a marathon, right? Like. Like. And so

and she literally. She got invited to do seven marathons in seven days on seven continents. And she's raised. Trying to raise some money to get that done. That's like a big, you know, you got to pay for your own. Your own freight. But that's my family. Like, you know, tell her you can't do something, and next thing you know, she's this ultra marathoner. I mean, it's fascinating to me to watch that happen

and to do. Look, I won't keep going down this road, but to do a marathon in every state in 18 months or less than 18 months, are you kidding me? Like, I mean, so saying that to say, you just. You barely got the tip of the iceberg with Mike. He's awesome and amazing in all his own right, but, man, you. You really got to meet the rest of the clan, brother. Where did that come from? How did all of your siblings end up with such a powerful drive? A lot of it's insecurity, if I'm honest with

you. A lot of it's insecurity. A lot of it's like, you know, you're running from your own shadow now. Look, I hate to speak for them, but I think they're, at this point, they're probably over it. I've done it enough. But, you know, we. We grew up rough, man. You know, we were homeless at different times, abused in all kinds of ways. And, you know, we. I think there was a sense in which we felt, you know, perpetually victimized. And there came a point where, you

know, you respond to that in a couple of different ways. You know, one maybe might be to curl up in a ball and withdraw, and another might just to over be. To overcompensate and just. Just tried to become so formidable that no one can ever take advantage of you. I think that's where it starts, right? It starts like, I'm going to become so powerful, personally powerful, that no one's ever going to be able to victimize me again. And it manifests physically, it manifests

mentally. It manifests, you know, in a lot of different ways. My family. Look, I love you all if you're listening to this, but we're a little overbearing. We're a little overbearing sometimes, right? Yeah, we are. No, we're getting better as we age, but I feel like a lot of people. We've alienated a lot of people because, you know, our attitude can sometimes be, you know, put up or shut up. Like, you know, what are you whining about? Let's Just get on with it

and let's get the mission done. And, you know, that's not fair. You know, struggles. It's relevant. Right. You and I have talked about this offline. What constitutes trauma for people. That's pretty subjective. And, you know, I might be able to handle a lot more in terms of frequency or intensity than another person, but the feeling of being traumatized, you know, it's. No matter what the triggering mechanism is, it's. It impacts people differently. And I think for us,

we just became overachievers in so many ways. In so many ways. And I think now we're all struggling still to find balance. It's like, you know, you always want to. You. You want to be number one. You don't want to compare yourself to other people. You want to compare yourself to

your former self. Right. That's who you're racing against. Just a little bit better, a little bit more refined, a little bit more polished, a little bit more able to serve other people as you move forward, as you progress. And I think for my family, though, what lit the fire? Look, they may say it differently, brother, but if I. From a. Hey, I can. As objective as I can be. I think what lit the fire was insecurity, Jody, which is not a good motivator. It's really interesting. I do. You know

Chip. I do a lot of work with Lee Cockrell and have for years. He grew up with his mother, married five times. He's adopted twice, didn't finish college, and somehow ended up running Walt Disney World for a decade. And he cites insecurity quite often as his biggest driver. Oh, wow. Now, it's funny. You know, you introduced me to Lee. Great, great guy. But I did not know that. That is news to me. That is

so interesting. Now, what does he think, though? Does he think, like, in retrospect, does he think that was necessary as a primer? Does he think it was. What is his take on that? I don't know. I'd. I would have to ask him. He's open to talking about it. He doesn't mind telling people. So maybe that can be an episode of a show with Lee someday. You gotta ask him, because he's a guy who's got so much perspective in depth, so much

experience. Right. And he's had an opportunity to. Well, I think he's more reflective than I am, so I'd be interested to know what he would think of about that, looking back. Yeah. All right. One more question about your family. Yeah. Which will transition us into the next part.

So Many of you ended up in law enforcement. Why is that? Yeah, that answer is easy, and I think I am on the same page with my brothers and sisters here, is that, you know, when we were kids, we were often in pretty dire circumstances, maybe without something to eat, maybe in danger of being harmed and hurt, maybe actually be, you know, in a situation where you are harmed, we need help. And the cops were always showing up. And in our experience, this

isn't everybody's experience, Jody, with the police, by the way. This isn't representative of everybody's experience, but our experience back in the 70s was, you know, the cops were kind of like saviors. Like, they would come and they would protect us and they would get us help and they would get us food, and they would, you know, make an arrest if they had to, to keep us safe. You know, my dad went to jail a lot for violence, and it was just like this. You know, I immediately

associated them with protecting. And I thought, man, I really want. I wish I could do that. Like,

I want to be able to do that. I don't want to be the kid hiding under the bed, you know, I want to be the person who stands up for people that, that feel like they need to hide under the bed, metaphorically or otherwise, and that's it, right? And I think that's true for my

siblings. I think that drove them, in large part, all of them serve in some capacity, but the law enforcement piece particularly, I think it was just that impression that those officers made on us, you know, back when we were children. When you were a child, you saw a law enforcement officer as a protector, someone that was watching out for you, making your life better,

keeping you safe. All your years with the Kansas City Police Department, do you feel like you fulfilled that in your role as an officer? Yeah, for most of it, I would say. I think I could say most of it. I think there was probably a period of my career, I did 30 years, right? I think there's a period of my career where I was a little self centered, a little cynical, little disengaged. You know, it

kind of peaks and valleys there. But, you know, I came in like, you know, Superman with a cape, you know, in the boots and the whole nine yards, thinking, now that I've got a badge, I can save everybody and I can make everything right. And once I, you know, it settled on me that, no, actually I'm one cog in this very complex machine and my ability to affect people's lives in a dramatic way is pretty limited. You know, in the Aggregate, I'm not going to make a huge difference in somebody's

life day to day to day. And I kind of felt like I was on this 911 hamster wheel where it's like there's a problem, we come, put a band aid on it, we leave, we go to the next problem, that problem then ends up popping up again and we're back and. And I just got. This is something you've heard. Many of you, you know, as you and I both worked in law enforcement, we've heard our brethren kind of vent about

this, you know, feeling like you're on this, this treadmill. So there was a time, I think, where I, I just got to the point where I just objectified my clientele. Like I was just like, look, these people, you know, look at them, look at them. You know, we going to do with people like this. And I just kind of write them off, right? There's very black and white orientation, like there's good and evil, right? There's bad and good. Right. No real gray for me for a period of time. I think that

was. I was at my least effective then. I don't think I stayed there forever. But I burnt some bridges that'll never be rebuilt by having that attitude. People that'll never let me live that down. And I don't know if they should, by the way. I'm not asking for them to. I respect where they're at, but for the most part, for the most part, especially the last 15 plus years, oh my. Yeah. I feel I walked away from that profession. A lot of people grieve it.

You and I've talked about that too. A lot of people grieve it, and I think sometimes they feel like there's unfinished business there for them. I don't feel that way. I feel like when I walked away, I could look back on my service and feel. Feel good about it. Feel good about it. Not in a prideful way, but in a way that, that I fulfilled my obligation. Right. I fulfilled my oath. I did what I said I was gonna do. I

sacrificed where I needed to. And I feel looking back on it, I don't feel a deep longing like, oh my goodness, I wish I was back there doing that every day. I feel like that was a chapter that was really important to me and I closed it out in the right way, in an honorable way. I could feel good about it. I mean, thank goodness that I was able to shift my attitude. You know, if I'd have done a whole career with that cynical attitude, I Adopted for a while.

I don't know where I would be, quite frankly, Jody. Like, I don't know what that would have done to me. I have no idea. Well, this is a good transition into the reason I asked Chip to come on the show, because many people that I know put in decades in law enforcement and then when it's over, either they just retire and then they go fishing or play golf, or if they feel like they have something left, they become an instructor or a consultant within law enforcement. And

Chip did not do that. Chip took 30 years of experience working with people, being a leader, solving problems, and he is now a senior consultant with the Arbinger Institute. And this fascinates me, Chip, for a couple of reasons. One, you didn't take the path, 95% of law enforcement officers take it into their career. And so I want to talk about that. But then also, this is what I found for a lot of law enforcement officers is they think I spent

30 years in law enforcement. It's all I know. And they

don't connect how amazing their job was and what it taught them about leadership and problem solving and dealing with people and dealing with stress and, and that goes over into business as well. And you, you're one who knew what you did was such invaluable experience that you can help other people and then moved over to the Arbinger Institute as a consultant. And I applaud that so much because you do not have to have 30 years of a corporate experience to be able to consult for corporations.

And I love that you did this. And so I want to talk about that transition in particular, how you were able to pull from a 30 year career in law enforcement to now help organizations deal with problems. Yeah, there's so much there to unpack. Well, I would say first off that, and you know this from being a law enforcement officer, I think if you can be effective as a, as a law enforcement officer, you could do anything. Like, I really believe

that. I mean, the, the personality traits and the attributes that are necessary to be really good in the law enforcement profession, they translate into darn near any context right now. Look, I mean, there's upper limits relative to, you know, like, for me personally, my iq, like I'm never going to be a chemical engineer

or neurosurgeon. Right. I don't know the attributes for that. But in terms of most of the jobs that are out there, the professions that are out there that require working with people, if you're really good, like, you take your job seriously in law enforcement, and you learn all there is to learn. You meet people from every strata of society in all kinds of contexts, and most of them are tense and uncertain. Right. Those contexts. And you learn to

deal with these complex situations. And if you could do that. Oh, my. Like, you can add, that absolutely translates into the quote. I'm doing air quotes. The pressure of a corporate environment. Right. Like I often thought people in the corporate

space, like, they throw that word around. They'll use a lot of kind of trite, you know, colloquialisms or analogies where they'll say things like, we're at war, or, you know, those are really bad, in my opinion, bad analogies, because, you know, there are people who have been in situations like that where literally, life and

death, that's what you're contending with. So I'm saying that to say the same thing with people in the military, by the way, if you're really good at that profession, it translates over into a lot of other things. So the lessons learned there, in answer to your first part of your question, I think the lessons learned there in law enforcement about people becoming a student of people, that prepares you in

so many ways. If you're willing to expand your mind and continue to learn and grow and not feel like you got it all figured out or that you've got people compartmentalized into these certain categories, like, you're open to new experiences, new learning, you can take that foundation you get from law enforcement and you can apply that in so many different professions, different occupations. I have often said in business, all

problems reduce to people problems. In the final analysis, it's people that don't show up to work on time, people that don't meet expectations, people that don't get along well. It's all people. And once you become an expert in that people space, you're definitely primed to be effective in other professions. So, yeah, I mean, I think that. Is that fair? Is that a fair answer to your question? Yeah, it is. I find it encouraging to hear you say that. Look, if you were

good as a law enforcement officer, you'll be good at other things. My wife is a schoolteacher, and I see that in school teachers as well, that school teachers think, I'm a teacher. That's all I can do. And I'm like, no, if you can manage a classroom, there's nothing you can't do. Yeah, but Jodi, your wife, should know this, too. I mean, she might know this intellectually, but it's hard to know this, you know, from a point

of Self reflection. It's hard to know this, but being a teacher is something she does well. It's not who she is. Who she is, that's what she's bringing to the teaching profession that helps her excel. But who she is is something much more important than what she does. Is that fair? That is fair. That's a. Those are great words there. I want to get back to the work you do now and the Harbinger Institute, but there's one more thing I want to touch on. This

didn't quite come up, but I'm going to bring it up. Therefore, it will be part of the conversation. As a park ranger, we trained a lot in fighting and defensive tactics. I know you did. Most law enforcement officers do. I will tell you one of the things that looking back, I really like about training in defensive tactics and learning how to fight is that now I see what it really was was

training how to solve problems in real time. Training how to solve problems when you're potentially hurting, when you're tired, when you're under stress, when there's risk and you have to still solve those problems. I didn't get it at the time when I was a park ranger, but looking back, I realized that's what it taught me. Yeah, there's no doubt about it in that space. It's unforgiving, too. When you make a mistake, you get immediate

feedback and there's no hiding it. Right. You know you're doing technique wrong or you know you're not applying leverage in the right way, you're going to get immediate feedback. And the other thing is, you're always contending with people who are. They have an advantage over you. Like even, you know, even though you're well trained, you're wearing a lot of restrictive equipment, you've got a firearm you've got to protect. You know, there's limitations on what you can do.

You're also bound by the law. You know, the Constitution was written to protect people from the government, not the other way around. So, like, the Constitution was written to limit us in what we're allowed to do in terms of seizing and controlling people. And I think people forget that. Right. Cops have rules. And when you're going up against someone who doesn't have to play by the rules and they're desperate often to get away or to evade capture, man, they've got a whole

labyrinth worth of options they could leverage. And you, you again, you're bound by your training and being able to process in that moment. As you said, I love how you Said problem solve because it's like a complex problem and you're just, you're solving it from moment to moment and adjusting, taking the feedback, you know, judging the impact you're having on the impact of the technique you're using, evaluating and then readjusting and reapplying other technique. I mean, it's constant

chess game, really, and the more you practice, the better you get. But at the end of the day, I like the analogy you're making there, too. When you take that capacity that you develop in that particular domain and then you transfer that into any situation in which there's problems, any situation that's kinetic, that requires fast decision making. You've been preparing for that your entire life. On the mat, on the range, in critical incidents. Another advantage for

anybody out there in law enforcement, listening. I know there, I know you're out

there. Just another advantage that you're gaining every day as you're going about doing your job, training and preparing for the worst. You've got opportunity there to be able to find a way to transfer that into other endeavors. Okay, so you had 30 years of this unique, incredible experience. You retire, move to the Arbinger Institute as a consultant. During that transition, did you take any time to evaluate your career, reflect on it, write down your stories, what you learned, how

it applies to the work you do now? Yeah, I wish I would have written down more. Jody. So funny. When you're living it out, you're like, this is. No one's going to find this interesting. And I'm glad some people wrote some stuff down. I'm glad we were able to capture some of my experience in a couple of different books, you know, that I think have been helpful to people. I would definitely say they've been helpful to people in my mind. Like, I had

thought about writing a different book. But honestly, and I mean this sincerely, everything that I've learned, I've learned from people like you, from books, from trainers. Like, I don't feel like I have a lot of original, original thinking. Like, I feel like it would be if I'm. There's a lot of books out there that are just kind of recycled knowledge. I feel like that's where I'm at in my life. I've got some original thoughts,

but I haven't worked them out enough to make them coherent. I think most of what I know has been said better by people, better positioned to say it. So I didn't go down that road. And as far as my, Like, I didn't take much time between retiring from the police department and taking the full time position with Arbinger. So I'd been working with Arbinger as a consultant for years before I retired, using my vacation time to travel

and do that type of thing and to learn and grow. So it was kind of, for me, it was like I had a plan of kind of transitioning away from my career with the Kansas City pd And then it was like this fork in the road. Am I going to pursue a police chief opportunity so that I can scale my leadership philosophy within an organization, or

am I going to do something else? And I really didn't know what that something else was until one of my colleagues from Arbinger actually sat down with me and kind of painted a different picture for me of what my potential might be. But I knew this. So to answer your question, what I was sure of was I had more capacity in me to serve. And I wanted to spend the rest of my life serving people. That for me, like serving people for me, that's my thing. Like, everybody has a thing,

right? That's my thing. Being of service. Now, look, part of that could be driven initially by that insecurity we talked about. But I think it's evolved to the point that I feel like I am strong and capable. And I feel like that is a gift for which I am eternally grateful. I can't take full credit for it. I've worked to develop some attributes that I have, but I didn't earn those attributes. And I feel like that and this is kind of a spiritual thing for me,

Jody. I don't talk about this stuff really ever, but I feel like for me, because that capacity was gifted to me, I have an obligation that I feel to use that in service of other people. Now, say it out loud. It sounds so romantic, right? It sounds like I'm romanticizing it, but I do feel like that's true. I feel like I. I'm at my best when I am working in behalf of other people. I just, I get in a flow state. I feel like, oh, yeah, this is what I'm

supposed to be doing. And I'm at my worst when I'm selfish and self concerned and self absorbed. Like, I don't like that version of me. It happens. He shows up. But I'm definitely at my worst. I can't think as clearly, I can't function as effectively. But once I turn outward, as we say in arbitrary. Once I turn outward and I start working on behalf of other people and sincerely focusing on how I can get what I Need in a way that helps them get what they need. Oh,

man, I feel alive. I feel. I mean, it's crazy, right? I feel like I could do this forever. I don't feel like. People talk about riding off into the sunset and, you know, retiring and going fishing and maybe sitting on a beach and that's a vacation poster. To me, that's not a life. Like, I. I feel like I want to be engaged so much. So, you know. Yeah, man, I went off the rails there, brother. That's where the best conversations are at when we go off trail, find the good stuff.

Now that you have, you're able to look back. You've been retired from the police department for a little while now. Been doing great work with the Arbinger Institute. If someone else were to come to you and say, look, I'm an executive, because a major in a police department is an executive. I know it has a different name, it's rank based on. But it is an executive position. So someone comes to you and says, look, I'm. I'm finishing up my executive career. I also want to be a consultant like you.

What counsel do you have for them? You said you wish you would have wrote more down. You wish you would have collected more stories. Well, now you've got the chance to tell someone else how to prepare for it. What are the steps?

Yeah, well, look, first of all, I'd say journal, and I mean that. Again, that sounds trite because everybody's talking about journaling like they're rediscovering it, right? Last decade or so, people have been talking about, like, the re. You know, the resurgence of stoicism and that type of thinking, and journaling has been a big thing. We want to talk about that, like, not just from a therapeutic perspective, but also from just being able

to help you kind of fortify who you are. I would commend that to anybody. You're having experiences right now. Now I'm talking to this person, this hypothetical person. You're having experiences right now that you can't fully appreciate the significance of. You know, but keep track. As you learn something, Note it down. You know, when you find an interesting story or an interesting success, write it down, capture it, memorialize it. You're never

going to remember it like it happened. And people are constantly bringing up things to me that I forgot. Like, pretty neat stuff that we did as a team. I'm like, oh, my goodness, I didn't even remember doing that. Like, that had slipped off my. Or out of my memory. So that's One also understand that every single person you meet, you can learn something from that person and you should have that orientation with them. Like,

it gets crazy curious. So when I find successful people, you know, the Alamolally's of the world, the Stan, the Crystals of the world, the people that have led things and have really accomplished some amazing stuff, when I'm in their orbit, like when I can have time with them, I get so curious. I want to learn from them. I want to get like, what are lessons that you've learned as you've gone along your journey? What were the things that contributed to your success? Were the most

difficult things that you came up against? What kind of impediments did you face? How did you maneuver over and around them? Like, how did you transform those into opportunities for growth? Just get like, you're a student, right? Constantly, lifelong learning. I'm wanting to know as much as I can. You're in a laboratory right now. You, you hypothetical person that Jody's talking about,

you're in a laboratory right now. You got to treat it that way. Just approach it with the curiosity of a five year old and you're going to learn so much. But every conversation you have is significant beyond your ability to appreciate the significance. And if you treat every person you meet, if you treat that interaction as sacred, it doesn't mean you're going to spend an hour with them necessarily. But if you walk past a person in a hallway, you can regard them as a person, as a human

being in that five seconds it takes you to walk past them. And, and that can become transformative as that becomes, you know, kind of characteristic of who you are. You have genuine respect and regard for people, it changes your entire outlook. You know, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are. And as you change your mindset, your attitude, your perspective, opportunities will just pop up, Jody, in all

kinds of ways. Like where you're like, oh my goodness, there's an opportunity right here for me to learn something so valuable? I've learned things from my stepson, I've learned things from. Even when he was growing up, I learned things from him, right? By just simply opening my mind up. So you're preparing every day. Keep a bit of a journal, keep track, build a network. You're really good at this, Jody. Build a network of people who have varied expertise and varied perspective

and diverse ways of thinking about things. Build a network, go outside of your comfort zone and have people you can lean on and go to that can help guide you, that's huge, I think. And then don't be afraid to experiment and iterate. You know, you've got to try things out. Life's about iteration and, you know, you've got to experiment a little bit, Come back to the lab, make some adjustments, go back out and experiment.

You know, you're not going to get it. It's funny, I was with a group yesterday doing strategic planning session and you know, the hardest thing for them is thinking we're going to solve this problem today. It's like, no, we're not going to solve this problem. We're going to come close to solving this problem day. We're going to frame it up. We're going to frame it up in a way that we'll be able to contend with it more effectively. That's what

we're doing here today. So, yeah, that's kind of. I'm not an advice giver. You could tell by the way that I just shotgunned that. But. But I mean, that's kind of in my mind, things that I think about as being important as you prepare for that next chapter. Well, now that we went through your career and the transition into the Arbinger Institute full time, tell us about the work that you do there.

Yeah. So arbitrary. Kind of saved my life in a way. You know, just their way of explaining what was missing in my life in terms of leadership and connection. I could not, not work with them. Right. And so to have the opportunity now to do this full time is amazing. And what I do. So I have four main responsibilities. Content creation, executive coaching, facilitation and delivery of workshops and leadership sessions and then keynote speaking. I'll do speeches every once in a while as well.

Those are my main areas of focus. And it's just, I hate saying this, especially when I'm saying it on the record, but I don't really feel like I have a job, Jody. I feel like it's like, I mean, don't let my boss know, but, you know, I feel like this is like, right. So meaningful to me and I just enjoy

it. I enjoy every aspect of it. But day to day, a lot of travel, a lot of being with, with different clients, different spaces, helping them to focus on challenges that they're having in their organizations, working across all, all different verticals, from nonprofit to government to education, you name it, healthcare. So I'm

constantly. And we are an institute, so we are constantly learning. And it's like I'm constantly learning from all the people that I'm working with and the Latest thing that we've been doing, it's new to me. I've really been enjoying it actually is I'm a contributor to our new podcast. We. It's titled Leading Outward and Leading Outward launched a couple of weeks ago and I think we're up to like 550 five star reviews on Apple. I don't track

Spotify as much. I'm not on that platform as much, but I guess,

I guess it's doing well there too. And YouTube and anywhere you listen to podcasts. But I'm involved in some of the creation for that content. That's because that's a new task I've taken on here in the last year. A new role that's really, really fun. But yeah, day to day it's all about trying to help turn the world outward, to help people connect and to

bring humanity to the workplace. All the technology we have going on, all the outsourcing of our thinking that's being done by AI and different platforms, we want to make sure that people have to be able to

function and work well together. At the end of the day, there's people behind all of these technologies and so we want to make sure that we help people reconnect to that fundamental truth about others and the idea that we could work together when we have unconditional regard for the personhood of the people we we work with and we're considerate about the impact we have on them and their ability to accomplish their objectives. So that's a mouthful, but that's where I'm at today

with Arbinger's work. Well, there's it. You're just doing great work with Arbinger. They do. It's fantastic. This has been a such a good conversation about using your experience that you get through your career to build a unique perspective because Chip brings such a unique perspective because of the work he's done in leadership in communities that not many consultants that an organization would bring in have that type of experience. So I appreciate this, Chip. I'm glad you mentioned Leading

Outward, the podcast. You all do a great job on that. I said there was going to be two stories about Chip. I never got to the second one. But the good news is Chip is going to going to join us next episode and I will tell that story next episode when Chip comes back. But for now, Chip, I'm so glad that you joined us for an episode. This is such a good talk. Jody, you're so gracious and I love, you know, the questions you ask and I love the way you force me to think more clearly. You know,

I. It just, it's a pleasure to spend time with you, my friend. I look forward to the. The next time we get the chat, which sounds like it's going to be pretty soon. Pretty soon. Well, where can we either find out more about you or just find out about the work with the Harbinger Institute? Yeah. So we're on LinkedIn, obviously. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm fairly active on there. I check that once a day at a minimum. And

then arbinger's website, arbinger.com. you know, that's an easy way for people to learn so much about our work. We got the three international best selling books that are out there, Leadership and Self Deception, the Anatomy of Peace and the Outward Mindset. That's another great intro into Arbiter's work, the podcast. Honestly, like, I'm finding. I'm surprised at the response from the podcast. I'm finding this to be a really good entree into Arbinger and what we

do. Because a lot of people don't have time, Jody, as you know, to maybe sit down and read a book. They don't feel like they do and it's hard to. You can't really. I don't like this word. This is the wrong word. You'll probably have a better word. But you can't really multitask when you're reading a book, right? You gotta, you're setting still, you're focused, you're reading what it, whatever

it is. With a podcast, oh my. You could be folding the laundry. You know, you could be taking a walk with the dogs or strolling through the Smoky Mountains. I like that. As you know, I'm rather fond of the Smokies and listen to a podcast. So this podcast, and it's also digestible. It's like it's chunked up in a way that the episodes are short enough where, you know, it doesn't require a huge time commitment. So I'm gonna. This

is my last shameless plug for the podcast, is that. I think that is a great way to learn a bit about Arbinger's work in the second episode. This is unique. In the second episode, I coach a construction executive live. So we are coaching through a real problem that he's struggling with. And, and we're recording it. And just for him to be able to. Of course, we anonymized him. We anonymize anybody we do this with. He ended up outing himself on LinkedIn

after the episode came out, which I thought was amazing. But that is like you being a fly on the wall for a coaching session where you can just take it in and maybe you could be helped as well. I know I'm helped when I coach. It's reciprocal. But that's kind of a neat. I haven't seen that on a lot of podcasts. That's an experiment we're running. So website, books, podcast, LinkedIn to get a hold of me Easy day. I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn. And

yeah, that's it. All right. Thank you so much, Chip. And thank you for listening to the Jody Mayberry Show. I wish you'd stop being such a sook. Sugar J.