Welcome to the Jody Mayberry Show. I feel like I'm a little behind in getting this episode out because in February, Lee Cockrell and I did a Creating Magic Mastermind. It's the best event that we do. I absolutely love them. When we do those events, I like to have someone join me to talk about them and how it went, what we learned. And the guest who was at the mastermind and is here with me today is the founder of Morgan James Publishing, David Hancock. Hello,
David. Hello, Jody. Man, what a privilege it is to be on here with you today. Oh, man. What a privilege it was to be with you in October. That was great. David has been to two of them now. Yeah. So after going to one, David, why did you come back for a second one? Why would I go back for more? Right? Well, you know, one of the things I love about your format, Jody, is it's not a one and done. And the attendees that are there are different each time that I've learned and and actually
experienced. So having the ability to learn from each other, share the stories, learn from the two of you, Lee and obviously the amazing Jody, the outcomes were completely different in a positive way. So I I'm a big fan of masterminds. I'm a big fan of of just letting a group solve everybody's challenges or or bring that proper encouragement in it. And, of course, every stage that I've gone to it, we were at a different place in a good in a good
way, and and I needed additional help. So I love it. Love it. Absolutely. I tell people when they sign up, I say, I know you're signing up for Lee Cockrell, but you will find out Lee is not the best part of the event. It's the group around the table. Is that true or false? Absolutely. And definitely in your events, but that's true with whatever event you go to. If you look at it that way, the real magic of the relationships you can create with the people to the left
and the right of you, if you if you think of it that way. But yours is such a small setting and such a forced, again, a good way, into getting to know those people sitting next to you. That's just the beauty of it. Yeah. Okay. So what I've done is I have pulled nine things that I learned from this particular mastermind. It's amazing. Lee and I have worked together ten years. I think I've heard it all. And
then every time we do one of these, I learn new things from him. And I've purposely pulled eight of them from what Lee said and one from our guest speaker because when we have attendees, people that have paid to be there, they didn't necessarily pay for me to talk about them and their challenge on this episode. So that's why I've picked things that Lee said. Although David was there, maybe we'll end up talking about
what he talked about. But so this is what we're gonna do, David. I'm gonna tell you one thing that I learned from Lee, and then we'll just talk about it. Even if it's briefly because I think, as I said, people come for Lee Cockrell. They realize it's the discussion. It's everyone else that makes it worth it. In this episode, though, we're mostly gonna talk about things that Lee Cockrell talked about during this event. We always start off with Lee giving
some sort of monologue or talk at the beginning. But once we start the hot seats, we call them magic seats just to stay on brand. Once we start those, there are times Lee does not talk much, and he purposely will hold back and talk at the end because I'm sure you felt this at Morgan James publishing, David, that if you speak up, okay, the founder, the boss has said something, so maybe we should tilt in that direction. So Lee holds back so other people will participate before he
talks. But this one, this first item, number one came from, I think it was Lee's opening talk, but perhaps it was the first magic seat. Lee said when we hire, we have to show what's in it for them. So David Lee says that this is a change with younger people that it used to be. We wanted to know what the person we're interviewing can do for us. But Lee says, no. It's changed. Yes. You still have to do that, but we now have to show what's in it for them.
So if we're interviewing for Morgan James publishing, yes. We wanna know about that person, but we also have to let them know what's in it for them to come on board at Morgan James publishing. Do you find that's true now? I do. And you're so right with Lee and even you. When you do kind of reserve and and take it all in and then share your your wisdom as the leader, that's very impactful. But you're right. You don't wanna steer any conversations or thoughts. But he did lay the foundation
really well in in that talk, and he's absolutely right. And it's different than from when you and I were, you know, seeking out in that workforce place. And and you can blame the tech industry who offer these unusual, unbelievable packages to get the highest, you know, you know, quality candidate to get in there, but that's kinda spilled over in every avenue. There's a lot of options regardless of what, you know, unemployment numbers
say. For the most of us, we've got a lot of great options, and it's a competitive workforce to be able to to say, do I wanna pick this company? Do I wanna pick this company? This will serve me, and I certainly they have to serve you as a company. But the mindset of that younger generation is so different, and I I like it. It makes it more of an equal playing form where you can really kind of play in the sandbox together and benefit
everybody. Yeah. That's right. And I think it helps build a better culture when someone is coming on board because they realize it benefits them. Your company lines up with their ultimate goals. And we do see that with young the younger David and I say younger people, but younger people just means younger than us. That the young up and coming generations are very into I want to do meaningful work and you better be part of that
or I may not take this position. I started to teach that to authors in that whole mindset back in the day when Jay Lemelson and I wrote a book called The Entrepreneurial Author, but we spent an enormous amount of time in that book talking about that mindset, that journey, the the stress, the the serving yourself first and then the company second. And of course, for publishing, it's the book and and readers. So for
the yeah. Absolutely love it. Okay. This, I feel, goes nicely with point number two, also from Lee Cockrell. And he said, you have to push the culture down to the front line. The reason I thought this one was interesting is another Morgan James author, Dan Cockrell, he would always say culture is how we do things around here. So if you combine that with what Lee said, that you push culture down to the front line, to me that says, okay. If culture is how we do things around
here, it has to come from the top. Because if the top doesn't push it down, this is how we do things, then it goes from the front line up. Because the front line will just without direction, without examples, they'll just do what they'll do and then that will form the culture. What is your thought on this idea that you have to push culture down? Oh, I absolutely agree with it. Because you're right. If if left unattended, you know, they'll kinda do what they've done before or do what
they've done at previous companies or something like that and it'll get disjointed. But you absolutely have to understand why we're all here, who we're serving, what's the important role that we're serving in someone else's
life, and then how we're connecting, communicating with each other. And then the activities and the and the camaraderie that you're building together and the events that you do together to create that relationship and that space to be able to thrive in that culture is super, super important. And you're right. If you're not leading that direction, it'll just go awry and go however it goes. Sometimes it works out, most time it
doesn't. So you definitely have to be intentional. And you can't do it one time. You've gotta constantly be making sure that everybody is all in the same motion of how are we serving our ex. You know, how are we serving our ex. What's their experience? And it's a fluid process. I don't think anybody ever gets it perfect, but, the one thing
that we can do is perfectly address it on a regular basis. David, do you like how I snuck in an endorsement of Morgan James publishing mentioning Dan Cockrell as a Morgan James author? I like that a lot. I I appreciate you. I've seen you model that. So that's where that came from. Well, with every one of these events, we usually bring in a Disney speaker. This speaker was Chris Trout, who did wonderful. I really enjoyed him. Here's the
one thing he said, though, that I thought we should talk about. He said people support what they helped create. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. He said taking ownership of it, feeling responsible for its, fruition. And by the way, he was so approachable. Sometimes you think these execs, you know, they they got to a level where you really can't relate to them. Man, he was spot on. He was so lovable.
I've really enjoyed getting them. I had never met him before. But you're right. Once people start getting their hands into it and they're and they're buying into that purpose and passion for the organization and seeing, you know, how that end user is experiencing it, it's easy to really feel like, man, this is I had a hand in it. This is really amazing. And they take that role, and that's where that culture continues to grow and becomes very contagious. Alright. Yeah. Chris was
great. David, did you talk to Chris about how he needs to write a book? Well, you know, it's hard to be around me without hearing somehow that there's a book in you somewhere. Yeah. We planted seeds, so I'm sowing the seeds, and lord willing, we'll reap the harvest later. Yeah. I assumed that happened. Okay. We're gonna bounce back to Lee Cockrell, and this is a very short lesson, but very powerful. Lee said we overrate risk. Have you
found that to be true, David? You know, it's hard. In the early days of an organization, you're like, you're more willing to take the risk. You really wanna, you know, get out there and and and make a name for yourself. But then, you know, as you start gaining momentum and hiring staff and having more obligations, it's kinda hard to, you know, to take
risks, if you will. But then sometimes you get a little too complacent, but you always need to be on that front line and and and that's how you grow. You gotta get uncomfortable to grow. So I I absolutely agree with that. You know, think of it this way. You're you're an entrepreneur. You're running your little small business and you realize, okay. I've I've been feeding me, and now all of a sudden I'm feeding a family of four. Now I'm feeding a family of six, and they have three kids. And so
I'm feeding a family of 30. You know, the the stresses really start to weigh down on it, then you'd be very cautious. But if you're too cautious, you'll get passed by the organizations and the companies that are really taking those bleeding edge moments. You don't wanna be too much of a pioneer where you get errors in your back, but you've gotta stay in the front, and it does take risk.
And those risks can be very rewarding. Now, David, hopefully, you don't mind me mentioning this, but in my notes because I take a lot of notes during this event. And in the notes about you, I wrote something about how you got ahead. You built your business doing what other publishers won't do, but now you're hesitant to do a couple things because other publishers aren't doing them. Now, hopefully, you don't mind me mentioning that because it just ties into this so
well. Once you're more established, you just feel like there's more at risk. David and I are both family men. We were much more willing to take risks before kids, before mortgage than we would be now. Yeah. That's so true. Absolutely. And you're right. Even no matter how well you know something or think you know something, you've got that little those little doubts, those little errors and judgment because you're maybe a little scared and that's
okay. If you're not uncomfortable, you're never gonna go anywhere. But that's one of the reasons why I love your mastermind is that you can really find in those things and then flesh them out and get rid of them. Or find those things that are hiding, that are bubbling up to the surface that really need to come out. So I've always thought, you know, definitely as a founder that you can go so far by yourself, but you can go so much farther with a little bit
of help from a lot of your friends. That's so good. And Lee is not hesitant to be candid with people that are around the table. And Lee Lee will say candor is truth with empathy. So Lee Lee has the empathy, but when you need to hear something, Lee will tell you. And the translation to me is that truth with empathy is is truth and love. I always take his his constructive criticism and
feedback in love because, I mean, that's who he is. He has seen so much and has managed so many different scenarios we all can learn from him, but he does it he does it in a really special way. He does. And here's what I found working with Lee for ten years. If he doesn't care what happens to you, David, then he'll just say, good luck with that. I hope you do well. But I'll do respect. But if he cares, he'll he'll tell you, David, rethink that. Yeah.
Think about this. Have you tried this? That's a sign that Lee cares when he gives you the candid feedback. Love it. Okay. Here's one that something new I learned about operations at Disney from Lee that really made me rethink something. He said, there are no mirrors at the sink at Disney at Disney World. He said, there's no mirrors at the sinks at Disney World. They're on the way out. So this is what I love
about this. So they kept having a problem that our bathrooms would be clean, but it wouldn't look like it because the mirrors would be splattered. And that gives a sign that it's dirty. So they just move the mirrors on the way out. So you wash your hands, and then you look at yourself on the way out. And the mirrors stay clean. That really showed me that, okay, the problem is
our mirrors are always splattered with water. Most people, I think, the solution would be we should clean them more often. But Lee and Disney think in a way that say, oh, well, the problem is the mirrors are splattered. Let's just move the mirrors. Problem solved. Man, I tell you what, I don't know if I could have come up with that. That's brilliant. Hey, now I remember thinking, hey, there's no mirrors here, you know, dagnabbit, but I see it. You know, it takes one client. You could
clean the bathroom perfectly. The very next person, maybe you, will splatter the mirror, and then the very next person just walks in and says, oh, this is this is not so good. But it really it is because you moved the problem. Yeah. That's right. Well, with that, I'm sure that was not Lee's idea, that it came from someone else, probably someone who cleans the bathrooms at Disney. So Lee said, I
want everyone helping me run the company. So as someone who has run a company for many years, David, what do you think about that? The idea that it shouldn't be just you, everyone should be helping you with it. Yes. Absolutely. I love love that. Can I share an example from another a guerrilla marketing example of how that culture and that community and pulling in from every team member works? Story that Jay Levinson told me years and years ago. It's in one
of our books, of course. But, he when he was into the ad business, he was consulting with, a company called Tabasco. You probably heard of them before. And for years and years and years, their their profit has always been growing. But for whatever reason, at one point, they started to go flat to even started to maybe decline a little bit for the first time in their multi generational company. And it was like, oh my gosh. You know, let's we gotta
do something. So Tabasco decided to hire, you know, a a PR firm. And they wanted to know, you know, what do I need to do advertising on stuff to make this work? And they hired Jay's team from a marketing perspective. What kind of marketing do we need to do to make this problem, you know, go away and we can go back to profitability? And And he basically said, hey, here's, you know, multimillion dollar contract to whoever can come in and pitch us the best way. You know, is it advertising or is
it marketing? Because there are two different things. And he was very smart, this founder or whoever was running the CEO running Tabasco. He had the presentations same day, you know, back to back so they can have fresh ideas. And as you were going into the very first meeting with one of the two groups, the CEO said, hey, young lady, you're an intern. You
just started. Why don't you come in and sit and listen and take notes and and maybe, you know, just participate in this really cool exciting thing we're doing? And she was like, oh, I'm honored and scared. But yes. So she she sat in, and both organizations gave really great compelling ways to spend their multimillion dollars in marketing and advertising. All of them sound really good. And at the end, he turns to this intern and said, what do you think? What do you think we should
do? And the intern looked up and said, you know, it's so out outside of my element. This all sounds really, really good, but really, really, I I just think you need to make the hole bigger. And that's what they did. Profit shot up, like, 18 the next year. They retooled their bottles so that a little bit more would come out, so people would buy more often. They'd use it more often, and it wasn't sales or marketing. It was neither one. It was just making the
whole bigger. And that took the insight of somebody fresh and new in the organization and being willing to ask and being willing to listen. Oh, what a great story. That is a perfect example of this on both sides that she was willing to speak up in a room where she was probably intimidated and fell out of her league and that her supervisors and the people above her supervisors would listen. That is just a wonderful story. Unrelated to anything we're talking about, Lee has a good
story related to Tabasco. He he really likes Tabasco and won the red kind. And one time he came home, I think Lee or Priscilla had made meatloaf, and she had a bottle of green Tabasco on the table. And Lee was not happy about that, but he just tried it anyway, and it turned out he liked it. So he started giving out the Green Tabasco award at Disney World for people who did something
different out of their comfort zone. And then Tabasco heard about it, and they sent him a nice bottle with a good note of of green Tabasco sauce. So Oh, I love it. Yeah. Kind of funny story there that just, again, shows Lee's way of encouraging people to help him run the company. Do something different. Do something you're not comfortable with. Just like Lee did putting green Tabasco
on his meatloaf. Okay. This one, I won't I don't wanna give any details, but somebody was talking about problem at their company and something they wanted to do about it. And Lee advice to this person was just do things, test your authority. And I thought, oh, how wonderful. So many of us, if we're not at the top, we wait for permission to do something that we know probably needs to be done, but we're waiting for someone to say
we can do it. And Lee says, no. Just do things. Test your authority. That's how you find out what you can do. I love that. I've always been a ask for forgiveness kinda guy my entire life, so I've resonated with that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I and I from a business perspective, I really like it when when the team members really, you know, take a role and make decisions. And everyone who someone, including myself, might make the wrong decision, but how are you gonna know? Yes. Those boundaries
take control and you yeah. I loved it and resonated with it immediately. It reminds me of someone I was working with some at one point and someone else said, how is it going with this person? And I said, well, like with most new people, their mistakes this person's making mistakes. But what I like about their mistakes, their mistakes of action. And that makes a difference because mistakes of action means they're doing stuff and it's easy to adjust. I
like mistakes of action. Alright. This one this next one hits close to home. Someone this person, they're on their magic seat. They're responsible for a lot of people. They're trying to change the culture, and they describe the situation. And Lee told them, you're not being as tough as you say you are. And that one hits close to me because sometimes I'm not as tough as I need to be. I don't mind saying that the one thing Lee reminds me of more than he should have to is you're too soft. So, you
know, may that's it. So and that what I took from this, sometimes we have the idea this is how things are going, but you tell it to someone else and they hear the details and then they say, no. It's not going the way you think it's going. Yeah. So true. With that right culture, you know, with that right relationship that you have with those around you, whether they're above you or below you, it certainly certainly can feel like
you gotta really sometimes kinda dance around some things. But just to take ownership of it, step into it, be tough when necessary. They will respect you for it. Absolutely. Yeah. That's right. Okay. Here's point number nine. I think it's a great one to end on. Lee told somebody there's not much competition for being great. Oh my gosh. That's so I mean, I I remember that. You're right. It's like yeah. Absolutely. The the road less traveled is less traveled because nobody
seems to wanna go down there. Right? And that's where the great people go. Well, David, I've used this episode to bring up nine points I remembered and learned from the Creating Magic Mastermind. You don't have your notes in front of you. I'm putting you on the spot. But does anything for a special tenth point, does anything come into mind that you remembered from the mastermind? Oh, I remember that I wanna go back for sure.
Because as we kind of alluded in the beginning, not only do I get a great amount of value by spending more quality time with you, Jody, and and here in the wisdom of Lee, but the wisdom of the crowd is just so it ignites a fire in me. It makes me feel like, yes, I too can take advantage of all this stuff. And and you're in there with peers that are going through very similar challenges or have just solved the problem you're trying to
do. So it is it's just a great environment. Just a really great environment that, I think you can thrive in. And, with as busy as we are nowadays, you know, I've been in masterminds that met on a regular basis. I love yours because there's some there's some time to spread out between the two so you can go and implement and create, you know, new opportunities and challenge that you'll need help for the next go around or learn something that you can
share passionately back to the group. So that's that's pretty powerful as well. Yeah. Alright. Wonderful. Well, the next one, David said he's wants to go back. The next one, October 20 20 five, October in Orlando will be the next one, and they always sell out. The next one will sell out. It'll be a great time. It is my favorite event. I think it's a great example also of the great working relationship Lee and I have because I'm the showrunner. I make sure we get people there. I set everything
up. I make sure people have a great time, and I make sure Lee is set up to do what Lee does. And that that's why Lee and I work together so well because I just make sure that Lee has the perfect setting to do what Lee Cockrell does best. If you want to experience the next Creating Magic Mastermind, well, you can listen to Creating Disney Magic because we'll talk about it there or just go ahead and send me an email, jody@jodymayberry.com, and I will send you all the
details. And from the sounds of it, if you join us, you might get to meet David Hancock as well. That's right. What an honor and privilege for me that would be. Alright, David. It has been fantastic for you to join me. And I should say, before we say goodbye to David, if you enjoy the witty banter of Jody Mayberry and David Hancock together, check out the podcast, Morgan James Radio, where David and I have done episodes together for many years now.
Indeed. Alright. Thank you so much, David, and thank you for listening to the Jody Mayberry Show. Y'all need something sweet. It's Sugar Jay.