Be You Times Two

Welcome to the Jody Mayberry show. Recently, Lauren Gagioli launched a new podcast called the digital entrepreneur toolkit. Lauren is a friend of the Jodi Mayberry show. Well, she's a friend of Jodi Mayberry too, but she's been on the show a couple of times, and I was honored to be one of the first guests on her new show. Lauren does long form interviews, and it's not often I get the chance to do an hour long

interview. Going that long allows you to go deep in the corners and back rooms you just never get into if you stand around on the front porch and have a conversation. The interview I did with Lauren goes into topics I normally don't have the time to talk about and I liked it so much. I asked Lauren if I could share that interview with you as an episode of the Jody Mabry show. So we're going to do that. If you stick around to the

end, I really like the final topic that we talk about. It's the idea of being more of who you are. You times 2. That's what I call it. So let's listen to that. I'll come back at the end, and then we'll talk a little more. So let's get the work with Lauren Gagioli and the interview I did with her on digital entrepreneur toolkit.

I wanna hear about your entrepreneurial journey so far because I sort of with all my friends, I feel like all of us have these histories of how we got to where we got to, and we often are talking about things we're facing in the present. But I realized in coming up with the idea for this show, I was like, I have so many amazing friends who have had these long journeys in the space, and I only, like, see the tip of the iceberg. So I really wanna, like, go back in the way back machine and hear

more about how you ended up where you are today. So you want people to tell the stories they don't wanna tell, basically. Pretty much. Yeah. I'm just collecting dirt publicly. That's what's happening. Yeah. Well, the early days of a entrepreneur, at least for me, weren't they weren't great, but it was good because that's how you learn. I think that's how you get the

grit of being entrepreneur that helps you later. I was a a park ranger and then a marketing director at a luxury home builder and then had the the gumption, the misguided enthusiasm that I can do this on my own. I don't need to have a job to do this. And I was fortunate enough to negotiate a contract with the company I was at that I will keep doing this job. I just won't be your employee anymore.

What precipitated that? Like, what made you think I should step back from having the security of the job, but still continue to help the same people? Because you usually hear people stepping out and going a different direction. Yeah. It's well, I am a middle child, and we don't like to be told what to do. So I think I eventually just thought, you know, I can do I have. So what happened? I got an MBA in the 2 years I worked there. I at

night was going to school to get an MBA. And I think I thought something drastic would change when I graduated, and nothing did. And the owner was a great guy. Great guy. I learned so much from him. And I thought, okay. When I'm done, I'm sure Bob's gonna be so pleased. And then he said, oh, you graduated. That's good. Maybe you can pay attention at work now. I thought, Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, my. So I'm sure he's joking, right,

Lauren? He's joking. So the I think that was when I realized, hon, maybe there's maybe I should be just be doing something else. I was my role at the company had shifted. I started as a I left from being a park ranger, took the job there when the owner's son moved on. And so I was going to took the job to get trained up to be like the second in command. But then the sun came back and so I then I took a different role

and was doing all the marketing. So I was the marketing director, but then the controller left the company and I have a background in finance. So I was doing the marketing and also ended up doing payroll and accounts payable and accounts receivable, which is way more important than marketing because people have to get paid so that I ended up doing more of that. And eventually, as our marketing kind of slipped, just talking to the owner one day, day, he was saying, I would really like

you to get back into doing more of the marketing. And I guess, maybe I said it before I thought it through, and I said, hey, I could do that. What if I just left the company? I'll do all the marketing, and I don't have to be on the payroll. And he took me up on that. And then I don't have to do the payroll either. Yeah. That's right. I don't have to do the payroll. So we negotiated a contract that

was decent for the 1st several months. And then as I finished some projects that were already underway, and then it moved to hourly, which was the last hourly work I've ever done. Mhmm. But after the bigger piece went away, I mean, there were some rough times because the hourly work I was getting from them just wasn't enough. So there were months I couldn't couldn't pay the mortgage and had to figure out what what do I do? What

comes next? So those are the stories no one likes to tell because we all have our stuff together, Lauren. You should know that by now. Well, you you

do now, but, you know, this is way back in the day. You're learning, so it's a safe place to share from. Yeah. But I really appreciate you sharing that so transparently because I do think this is something that I think a lot of folks who are just getting started, they're like, what am I doing wrong?

Right? So something like taking hourly work, if you've been in the space a while, you know, get the retainer or parse out the contract over months and do payment plans, installments, what have you, these are things you learn by doing it wrong. Right? Like, you realize the margins you need to work within. And sometimes it dries up, and that's a really, really tricky thing to navigate, but I think it's so important that we hear it so we don't

feel like we're alone and, like, doing it wrong. There are lean months if you're doing it for yourself as opposed to, you know, taking that paycheck regardless of how many hours you're working. Right? You get that fixed amount if you're on salary. So Well, and that's a trade off. It is a trade off. And one of the things that you may believe that is not true, but certainly feels true is having a job is security. But then you have one person that decides what happens.

But now I've been fired by clients, and the next day, everything was okay. I have fired clients, which you could say is the equivalent of quitting the job. And the next day, everything was okay. So if you apply that to a job that feels safe, what happens if they fire you? Well, the next day, it's not okay. Or what happens if you fire them and quit the next day is probably not okay. So that is one thing that I think you need

to realize early on. The other is I said this is the last hourly work I did, but I did work for them still 6 years after I left under an hourly agreement. And it was good. I mean, it was good. We had a great relationship. I knew their work really well. But you still need to know in the early days, we don't don't hold up. Have you seen National Lampoon's Vacation and Christmas Vacation Cousin Eddie? Right. Yeah. And and his wife said, holding out for a management position. That's right. That

is exactly the point. I don't want anyone to make the mistake of holding out for a management position when you just need to early days, you probably just need to scrap and take what you need to take and do what you need to do. That's how you learn and that's how you pay the bills. Don't let cousin Eddie be your be your guiding light. That's right. He might have a really cool RV if you do that. Yeah. Yeah. He did have a good RV. He did. He did. And

a sweet hat. Yes. I do have a hat like that. I have a hat like that. I when I was a park ranger, that's what I would wear in the winters in Spokane. Oh. That's Yeah. Chile. You need one like that. Park rangers wear mini hats. Like entrepreneurs. Oh, there's a good point. Yes. Yeah. Maybe it was always destined to be then because, you know, if you started in park rangers as a park ranger, then, you

know, you're already accustomed to it. Well, okay. So the mini hats of a ranger thing when before being a park ranger as a financial analyst at a commercial bank, which is as exciting as it sounds. And I had to give my first interpretive talk as a park ranger, but I didn't know. I dealt with spreadsheets all day, so I didn't know what to do. So I copied Mac Mickelson, who was like the poster boy for being a park ranger. 6 foot 4, muscular, looked like Superman. Great

voice. And he had this interpretive talk people love called the mini hats of a ranger. And he would bring all the hats a park ranger would wear and then tell the story of the work we do while wearing that hat. I said, okay, I'll copy Mac. And I did a talk called Ranger Pants, and I would bring the different pants. No park Rangers. This was my very first interpretive talk, and I would hold up the pants and then talk about the

work that we would do. And halfway through my very first interpretive talk, a 10 year old boy raised his hand, and I could tell it wasn't going really well. So I was really happy this boy had a question. And he raised his hand, and I said, yes. What's your question? He said, can I go now? Yeah. That was that was a little awkward. You lost the 10 year old. Yeah. Yeah. So those of us who aren't park rangers, what is

an interpretive talk? It's basically you get up and tell a story and try to teach people something about the park or nature or outside or whatever. But it's a very useful And you get to just come up with it? Yeah. Right. You get to come up with whatever. Most parks have an interpretive plan, and your talk should fit into that interpretive plan because we're going way off topic now, Lauren. But an interpretive plan for I'm learning something

though, and I like it. An interpretive plan for a park says, these are the stories that we want to tell at the park. And it could usually, it involves natural history, cultural history, things like wildlife, but it's all identified. And then typically, so long as it fits within the interpretive plan, you come up with whatever you want to talk about. Ranger pants was probably not in the interpretive plan. You went off

script. Yes. But interpretation has turned out to be extremely valuable skill in what I do. And one of the speeches I give is about using interpretation in podcasting or in business. But that talk I've given a few times because outside of being a park ranger, not many people know of interpretation or what's involved in it. But, really, it's it's not just in parks, but you'll you'll see interpretation in parks, in zoos, and museums. Even a good tour bus driver

understands interpretation. So is it what is the interpretation piece of it? Because that's such an interesting choice of word. Like, why is that the the terminology? It's rather than

just telling facts, it's telling stories in a way that provokes people to do something. So you want to get them. You don't wanna just give the facts of this is what happened at this part or facts about rocks or whatever. If you're in the audience or I want to tell a story that provokes you to go do something that you personally can do. So every listener to an interpretive talk or a podcast episode should hear it in their own way and act in their own way.

There are 3 pieces of interpretation. I have since added a 4th, which I will tell you the 3 pieces are a story. Why it matters to that person listening and the action that you want them to take after that's S. W. A. I since added a p, so it makes the word swap because you want to swap your enthusiasm to the other person. And also, it's easier to remember. The interesting thing about the p is when I first added it, I said it meant preach because then you

give a lot of information. And then I said it's the payoff because then you're you're telling people what the payoff will be. I've since realized I should stick closer to the spirit of interpretation. So now I say the P is for provoke because that's really what what you're getting people to do. You're telling a story. You're telling why it matters. You're telling the action you want them to take, and then you're trying to provoke them to

do it. I thought the p was gonna be pants. Pants. It doesn't really fit, but I assumed I assumed we're going back to pants. Interesting. So I the thing that I love about this, Jody, is it you have the financial background. You knew how to read spreadsheets. You understand the p and l. You get the numbers, then you go and you learn and maybe don't do so well on the first iteration of storytelling, but you are

such a gifted storyteller. And then in, like, the next step when they were dragging you back to sort the for the financial side by virtue of these changes in this organization, you're like, no. Like, I have all the pieces I need. I'm stepping out of this. And just how, like, the little nuggets of what you learned along the way helped you step into this new role. Yeah. It is really interesting if if you have read the book, The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. He talks about how you

can yeah. You can be really good at something, but that's not what you're at the moment. I'm forgetting the terms that he uses, but I'm really good at numbers, but I really don't care. Zone of genius. Zone of genius. Yeah. I'm really good with numbers. It is not my zone of genius. I keep spreadsheets for a lot of things because it helps. But I don't wake up in the morning thinking about numbers and I can't wait to talk to numbers today. That's just not me. But it does

help. But it is really interesting. There's been several times in my career where it's come back to numbers. I was a financial analyst, then I become a park ranger. And then we have a budget analyst that quit in the region I worked in and we had a hiring freeze. So what do you do if your parks and you can't hire a budget analyst? Well, you find a park ranger out in the field that used to be a financial analyst. So I had a stint where I was a budget analyst on the weekdays.

1? There is one. I was a budget analyst on weekdays and a park ranger on weekends while I was filling that role. And then I I take the job with the home builder and I start out one way. And then because of my background in numbers, I get pulled back in. I once had a marketing agency with somebody and there well, 3 of us. There were 3 of us. And guess what? When you have a marketing agency, someone's gotta keep track of the numbers and guess who they pick. And so it it just always pops

up because not a lot of people are good at numbers. And I am, but it's not something I care about one way or the other. I have met people, believe it or not, Lauren, there are people that wake up every morning excited about numbers and spreadsheets. When I was at the bank, the chief accounting officer, my goodness, nothing put a smile on his face like numbers. There are people like that out there in the world. I'm not one of them. Yeah. We need those people. Yes. We do.

You're like the Michael Corleone of, like, finance. Just when you thought you were out, they pull you back in, like and I love that you've been stubborn enough to be like, no. That is not I can do it, but that's not what I love. You mentioned grit really early on, and this feels like it really taps into that. Yeah. I think you're right. It does happen to grit. And there there's grit in a couple ways. One is being stubborn that I won't go back to it. Although it doesn't work if you own

your own business and then refuse to do the numbers. That doesn't work. But the other form of grit that has come up through this what we've talked about is sometimes you get grit or get gritty by just getting dragged in the dirt, which has happened a couple of times. Right? You you have to be able to sustain that. And if you can learn grit early on, it really helps later when the stakes are higher. How can you tell the difference between like, do you have some sort of internal sense of when to

stick it out or when to shift or pivot? Like, you've talked about that you fired clients. Like, how do you know when it's just this is when I need to dig deep and keep going versus this is breaking point? I've probably made more mistakes

in that regard than I have big wins because when I like someone, I just stick with them no matter what. Even if it turns out to have not been the right thing. I've probably got more of those examples than the other. I'm probably better at choosing not to stick in situations than I am and not to stick with people

because I just get loyal and I like people. But situations, I think once you are old enough and you've been through enough and you just realize, my goodness, if I'm not happy about this thing when I wake up in the morning or if I'm thinking about it with not good feelings when I lay down in bed at night, it's probably time to change because why bother? Sure. There are situations

where you have to deal with it. I know people don't always act like it now, but we don't live in a world where you can say, I don't like that. So I'm walking out. What's that? This is news to me. I know. I'm sorry to I'm sorry to burst you on that, Lauren. So you have to stick with things sometimes. Yeah. But then the other mean that when I decided to become a park ranger, for example, I had 2 bachelor's degrees at the time, but not enough credit to natural sciences.

So I had to go back to school at night because the job I was working, if they found out I was thinking about leaving, it was the type of culture where they're like, look, we need someone in your role that's dedicated. And so they just let you go. So I didn't. But it took a year. It took me a year from the time I decided to become a park ranger. And that's not easy to do, to have a vision that far out and stick with it for a year and say, no matter what happens, this is

where I'm going. That's kind of the opposite of what you were asking. Like, when do you know to walk away from a situation? Also, when do you know when to stick with a situation no matter what? Yeah. For sure. So what compelled the shift to we're kinda jumping around here, which is I'm fine with, if you're okay with it. Creative timelines here. What made the vision of becoming a park ranger so compelling to you? Lauren, I know over the years, you've heard me talk about my granny

a lot. I have. And Granny came up in our previous hour long conversation before this. She comes up black ice. By the way, I've never had a prerecording call. I've done as you have, Lauren. I've been a guest on many, many podcasts. I've never had a pre call that lasted more than an hour before actually recording. We don't like to talk. So I was a at the bank financial analyst, and my

granny passed away. I told my supervisor at the time, who the the treasurer, who the person that had that role before him, I was really tight with, and he took a job as CFO at another bank. So the new guy, we didn't really know each other and we were in the middle of something, a big project. And I was the only one in my role. It's like there were 2 of me and my granny died. And I said, I'm sorry, I have to go to Illinois. My granny passed away. And he said, you know, we're right in

the middle of this. So you've got some tough choices to make. And I said, well, it's not really a tough choice. And I went to Illinois. And during the time I was there for my granny's funeral, I realized, you know what? When I go back and if I perform my job really well, who really benefits? Maybe the shareholders. Because I wasn't dealing with customers. You know, I was a I measured

interest rate risk. That was my role. So I think it was that trip when I went home to see my grand for her funeral and I thought, I don't know. What does this matter? That was like the first crack because I was doing exactly what I thought I wanted to do. I was doing what I went to college for. And then we built a house. And as we were moving in, the couple that was helping us move, she worked for parks and she said, you know what? They're hiring park

rangers right now. And by the time I set that first box down in our new house, I said, I'm going to be a park ranger. And that was it. That day I decided I was doing and I was speaking to Cousin Eddie again, when he said, you know, if he lays into you, it's best to just let him finish. That was it. I was You're Rocco? Is that what I'm getting? You're the Rockwiler? In this situation, yeah. It was just Or no. Wait. Rocco's the kid. Yeah. Rocco

was the dog. Snot. Yeah. I was snot in this situation. It was best to just let me finish because I was gonna stick with it. Alright. I'm gonna have to talk to Rebecca about this. I need more stories from the other side. I now regret where I took this. I do too for you, but not for me. Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. So, like, in 30 seconds, your whole world shifted, and then you

went the park ranger route. Yes. 30 seconds, everything shifted, but only in my mind because there's so much there was a year's worth of work to do from that decision until it happened. And I I feel like that there's something there. Right? Because you can make decisions that impact immediately. You get the return immediately. But it's way different when you make a decision that you have to have the grit to stick with it like snot until it's done.

And all right. I'm going to stop with snot. This podcast is now going to be this episode is called Stick With It Like Snots. Oh my goodness. Alright. I'm gonna turn this back over to you because when I No. You keep going. You keep going. You are just it's gold. This is there's an interpretation in here. Like, we've leveraged, I think, Christmas vacation very well. Yes. We have. But I was having a similar conversation with my son

too. He's trying to make a big life decision, and he is purposely trying to keep one foot in both decisions. And I said, look. When you decide, you gotta let go and start taking the action towards the decision that you made. Because the longer you wait, the harder it is. And what happens as when you try to keep one foot in each one and and the 2 start to move further apart? Yeah. I mean, that could get uncomfortable. Said another way, you can't ride 2 horses with 1 ass. We might have to

edit that out. I don't know. Oh, we might. My granny wouldn't approve of that. No. She would not. Gosh. I'm gonna totally mess up where I learned this, but decide the, like, entomology behind it is to cut off all other paths. Yeah. And that it's like a the death of other choices. It's the one yes instead of the 100 other yeses. It's

a it's a 100 nos for the one yes. Yeah. So when I grew up in Illinois and after college, I graduated from Illinois State University and then I spent 3 months traveling the country living out of the tent, which is a whole wonderful story on its own. And I came to Washington state and decided that's where I want to be. Ultimately, I want to end up in Colorado, but I need 1 year in Washington state. And I came back and I started telling people I'm moving to Washington state. And I told my cousin's

wife, I'm moving to Washington. I've decided I'm moving to Washington. And she said, well, you've declared you're moving to Washington. If you've decided, then just do it. I had this plan to work for a few months and save money. And she's like, if you do that, the longer you stay, the less likely you go. If it's a decision, you would act on it now. And that was in August September. I had loaded everything in my

car and moved to Washington state. And it was because of her helping me understand the difference between declaring and deciding because I was going around declaring I was moving to Washington like it had happened. But had I really decided? Probably not until I drove away. Yeah. I'm a declarer of true confession. I have and you know what it is? I have a lot of ideas, and I need to talk them out before I choose which to pursue. So often, I think my language

betrays me a little bit. I don't say I'm contemplating this thing. Like, I would like to, and I get a lot of there's a lot of things I would like to do. And so I end up in this, like, gray zone with a lot of things, and this that's a really interesting distinction, declare versus decide. Oh, I'm gonna be noodling on that for a really long time. Yeah. It's it's a good

thought exercise to have. And I I think it was Michael Hyatt I first heard it from where he said, if you state your goals out loud too often, your mind kinda thinks, oh, I did that because it gets a little satisfaction by declaring it. And I have found that there is some truth to that. I think there's some other side of it too, that if you tell the right people what you've decided, then you wanna hold up your end of what you've said. And so I think find the balance of if you tell

everybody it's a declaration. But if you tell the right and you Lauren, I'm sure you know who the right people are with you. If you tell the right people, you're gonna make sure you follow through. And so perhaps understanding who do I need to talk to to make sure this is a decision and not just a declaration? Who are your right people? Well, at the time, I will answer that modernly. But at the time, when I decided to move, I remember I ran into

someone that I knew. Actually, one of the people I traveled with when I lived out of a tent. I ran into him, and he said, hey. What are you up to? And I said, oh, you know what? I'm moving to Washington state. Mhmm. And I couldn't back out then. Right? Because I told him, and we had just spent all that time together in a tent. But now That's the that you have to have spent time in a tent for someone to be on your team? Is that

the measure? Well, I just think there's a level of understanding when you've spent that many nights in a tent with the same person. Yeah. They know a little too much. You gotta follow the marriage. Yeah. So, modernly, definitely one of those people is Lee Cockrell. I'm not gonna tell Lee Cockrell I'm gonna do. Well, this has happened. I've told Lee Cockrell I'm gonna do something. And when it doesn't happen, then he'll say, why are we still talking

about this? You told me you were gonna do it. That's an uncomfortable conversation to have. So I think when you find that person to know they're gonna hold you accountable, to know they're not gonna brush it off and say, oh, you know, a lot of people say things.

But to have someone that will actually make you a little uncomfortable if you don't do what you say you're gonna do. I think that really helps. So definitely for me, it's Lee Cockrell. And I'm lucky enough to have a couple of people like that. Like, if I if there's if I wanna make something happen, then I probably am going to tell Lee Cockrell I'm going to do it. Dan Cockrell, I'm

going to do it. The one rivers because the 3 of them, I'm not going to tell them something frivolous and then not follow-up, which is why I've never told the 3 of them that I'm writing a book because then I'd actually have to do it. Yeah. You told me though. Yeah. That's a good point. I'm not we haven't spent enough time in a tent. Cross country flights don't count? I feel like that's a tight situation. Right? Yeah. I did take a nap on that flight,

so maybe it counts. You did? I told you about writing a book before that flight. I haven't mentioned it at all since the Yeah. You haven't. I haven't called you on it. So Yeah. Because I told you about it before a cross country flight together. Yeah. Alright. I'll start mentioning it. Oh. Fair enough. See what I've done. So I do see what you've done. What is your book about? Oh, stop. I think everybody wants to know. Should I have everybody email you, message

you, and so on social? Yeah. What sure. Now what I used to do that story? What I used to do on my podcast is I would say, email me and ask me my word count, and people actually would email me and ask me my word count. They stopped when my reply was shut up, then they stopped. Yeah. Well No. I didn't. I wasn't that rude to anybody. Your granny wouldn't have taken it if you wouldn't have liked it if you did. No. My granny expects me to have manners. Yes. Yeah. There's a reason they called her

the the sage of the prairie, philosopher of the prairie. I mean, there's a you know what I call her? The Napoleon of the discard because she was just wicked at Skippo. Skippo? Oh, man. That was our family game. When my granny passed away Plain little. I said, there's one I don't care what all y'all take. I have to have her skip bow deck, which I have. It's the only thing I got her skip bow deck because we used to play skip bow together. I've taken

us way off topic. No. We're gonna ask. To a great place. Well, skip bow with Granny is a great place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Granny was really good at Skippo, but she did cheat. So did my grandma marry. Oh. Oh. We could have had some really a lot of fun playing partners with them. Yeah. Only we'd known each other. If you got up to use the bathroom, granny would slide cards into your deck into your pile. No. Yeah. So you just had to hold it.

Amazing. Yeah. I think that was part of her strategy. You make that mistake once. Yeah. When you start, granny will have you drink some nice sweet tea, and then she'll drag the games out really long. I'm just now putting this together. So Revelations. Yes. This was, I'll tell you, a traumatizing event. The first time I ever beat Granny at Skippo. And brace yourself because this is a little shocking. I beat her at Skippo, and she called me a puke head. Granny. Yeah. Wow. And

how old was I? I was 23, I think, the first time I ever beat her. Oh, wow. So she was not accustomed to losing. Not not a Oh, no. No. She was Napoleon of the discard. She was not accustomed to losing. Discard. Oh, I love it. She would do anything to win. But you asked what the book was about. I've successfully avoided that, and I can keep avoiding that. Of other things. Yeah. We have. Yeah. We should keep talking about, my granny. Nah. Back to the book. What is your word

count? I don't remember. It's been so long since I even opened the word document. I do believe it was around 44,000 words, though, which is enough to actually say it's done if it were complete. Yeah. It's not. Yeah. So that book is about podcasting because that's what I do. The problem is that as we do, maybe I don't have the grit to have finished it because there's a whole third section I just never did. And

maybe it never needed it to begin with. But there are some podcasters out there that have way more experience than me, way more popularity than me. I've done some unique things in podcasting, though. Yeah. And so that's what I was writing about, like just about podcasting. Since then, though, I have like the outline done for the next 4 books and those other 4 are so attractive. I have trouble staying away from them. So what do I do, Lauren? I have one that's 44,000 words

in. It probably will be done in another 10 to 15, and then it can be edited and shortened, and then it's done. But I have these other 4, and they flirt with me all the time. These ideas for books. They're like making winky faces. Yeah. That's an interesting conundrum. I'm the wrong person to ask. You should see how many manuscripts I have started. Yeah. And quite often, those other 4 seem more interesting, seem more attractive, seem more relevant. But if I was 44,000 words

into them, maybe they wouldn't. I don't know. I find the middle to be really tricky. You know? Like, I think I love to personally just love to start new stuff, and pushing it across the finish line is is challenging. But, I mean, it's such a personal choice. Right? Like, podcasting is a huge part of what you've done and how you've built. So let's circle up to this at the end and talk through it. Can you share how many podcasts you have had, how you got started in podcasting? Was

podcasting something you were doing for the luxury home builder? No. No. What was your marketing channel there? Like, what did you primarily build out? So at the end, we'll do it. Well, you can provoke me to get back into that book, and we will encourage people to reach out to me and, Okay, we're not. We'll come back to that. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see. So with the luxury home builder, we did Facebook and a blog. Both of them were very popular locally. Like, we didn't care if someone ads or No.

Just our just our Facebook page. Yeah. Yeah. It did pretty well. Not with people in Cincinnati. We didn't care about that. But if you were in Port Townsend, of course, we wanted you to look at it. Yeah. So that was the and then newspapers. We did newspaper ads and things like that. So podcasting, you asked about that. Right? I did. Or okay. So because it's been such a big part of your story. I mean, it's how we met. At podcast moving in 2016, Chicago. Oh my goodness. That's

right. Yeah. That's right. Which that we should also tell the Sugar j story when when the time comes. Yes. Because that was burst there. So podcasting was not something that was on my radar. But at this point, 2013, I was starting to miss parks a little bit. I graduated with the MBA and I started to think, what if I took the ideas I learned in business school and applied them to parks? But I didn't want to go back and be a park ranger. I came up with this idea called

Park Leaders. That was content for part leaders in parks, hence the clever name, park leaders. But I didn't know what it would be. I bought the domain. I sat on it. I kicked it around. I thought, Okay, maybe I'll do a blog. But I hadn't started it. Then I discovered this podcast called Starve the Doubts because at the time I listened to them. Oh, yeah. A lot of podcasts. So I discovered Starve the Doubt. Who I reached to that? What? I reached out to the host, Jared Easley, and we struck up a

a friendship and we talked all the time. At which I mean, that seemed uncommon in 2013 to just end up connecting with the podcast host, becoming friends. But I had an idea for a guest for Jared Show. So Jared Aisley is completely responsible for me being a podcaster. All the good and bad that goes with it. And I suggested a guest for the show. And Jared said, I'll do it if you will be my co host. So I said yes. And Jared is

a very good podcaster. We do this show together and we had questions in advance and we knew who would ask which question. And Jared made his like a conversation. But then when it was my turn to ask a question, I just blurted it out. Like, if it if my question was, what's your favorite color? Then just I would interrupt and say, Lauren, what's your favorite color? I mean, I was terrible. But Jared invited me back a couple more times to co host, And that's when I started to see that, wait a

minute, this could be the avenue for park leaders. And then in 2013, I recorded 6 episodes of the park leader show. And I really disliked them. In

particular, I disliked the sound of my voice because my voice is different. And I thought, oh, geez, my voice sounds so different. And then in 24 April of 2014, I finally got over myself and released the show, started the show. And then where it became such a big piece of what I do is I wanted to talk to someone from Disney about what natural parks, like national parks and state parks, can learn from Disney and other themed parks. But I had no connection to anyone at

Disney. I found the book Creating Magic on Amazon and bought it. And as I was going through it, I thought, I think the author of this book would be a great guest. But he ran quickly. He ran Disney World. What are the chances he's gonna come and be on a show for Park Rangers? But I reached out and I asked him. I had no idea that at the time his sister-in-law had been a park ranger for 30 years, and she went on to retire as the superintendent of Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska.

So the author was Lee Cockrell. And when I asked, he said, I love Park Rangers. Let's do it. So we did one episode. We did another episode about a second book, The Customer Rules, and we just had a good rapport and he was so good at it. I said, Lee, have you ever thought about doing your own podcast? And he said, no. I'm retired. I wanna feel retired. I'm sure it'd be fun, but it'd be a lot of work. So I said, what if, this was not

planned. It just happened. I said, what if you just show up and I do all the work? And he said, oh, I'll think about it. I said, oh, I'll never hear from him again. And he called me 2 weeks later and said, I've thought about it. Let's do it. So I said, okay. Give me some time. And I took 2 months. I read all 600 of his blog posts. I reread his 2 books. I watched every video I could that had him in it on YouTube and took

notes the whole way. And then I said, okay, Lee, I'm ready. And then we recorded and launched creating Disney magic in 2014. And now 500 plus episodes more than 4,000,000 downloads later, it's still going. And then to answer your question, that's how I got into podcasting. But then how did it become such a big piece of what I do? Once you work with someone that high profile and do a good job, you start hearing from other people saying, can you do for me what you did

for him? Yeah. So then I started to I never intended to be like a professional podcast host. But when people start reaching out to you saying, I wanna pay you money. Sure. I'll do that. So at my peak Yes, please. Yes, please. More at my peak, I think I may have had, like, 10 shows going. So At one time? At one time. Yeah. And now I've done That's a lot of juggling. Oh, it is. It is. But it worked. And I haven't counted in a while, but I know I've topped probably 26 100

episodes now. Yeah. So that's a few. Just a couple. I think too being at the helm of it and the way you do it is so interesting. Like, being a cohost for personalities facilitating the tech, you know so I was talking to another friend. She's come gonna be featured on the show as well. And her background made her such, like, a good I have no, like, more appealing way to say this. I have to come up with something, but, like, I always think podcasters. Right?

When somebody says I produce podcasts, oftentimes to me that slots into technical, not host. You know both sides. And so there's this, like, instead of being, like, really niche, it's harder to explain, but you're the connective tissue between all the pieces. And I think the people I gravitate towards naturally are those who have backgrounds that inform them in such a way that they can, like, traverse between the technical and the front of house and, like, all the things that are

needed to really make a successful podcast. And I'm sharing this because I think that's a unique offering that possibly should be encapsulated in a book that's nearly done. Well, it's I

appreciate that. And it and it is interesting. I do know all the technical background production stuff, but have since given over my role. I I have brought someone onto the team to be my podcast producer and then just taught her what to do. And for a while, I was even as show opportunities would come in. I was having someone else on my team host them, and I wasn't even hosting them as much.

But what has made I think what has made me do that role very well is I've never positioned myself as a podcaster, even though I am and I'm proud to be 1. I'm just a businessman who happens to be really good at podcasting. And that's the difference is. And the other thing is to understand the role. So let's stick with creating Disney magic. Yeah, Lee and I have very different roles, which is what has made that show so successful. Lee is the star. I am the host. He is not the host.

That is not his role in any way. It is my job to make sure Lee sounds great, looks great, says things the audience will enjoy. It's my role to make sure the episode stays on track and gives useful information to the audience. And it's Lee's role to just be the star, to show up and say really magical things. And as long as we stick to that, it turns out really well. Lee, as wonderful as he is, probably wouldn't do so well hosting a show, but he does phenomenal starring in a show.

Yeah. And that's the difference. To understand my role is to show up and make sure Lee hits a home run and that the audience gets something out of it. So if I'm hearing you right, you view podcasting more as a marketing tool rather than a product in and of itself? Because the way you you categorize that is, like, I'm a businessman who also happens to do podcast as opposed to a podcaster as, like, that is your, like, leading identity. Do you see them how do you

view it? Well, I I think that's kind of how business operates these days. We've had people come to events of ours that have listened to the show for years before they actually do anything. Mhmm. Do anything as in purchase something bigger than just listening. And it comes from years of hearing what we have to say and getting to know us personally. And then when the timing is right, they'll come to an event or they'll take a course or they'll do something

else. I feel like that's kind of how people like to do things. There's so many options these days. We'd rather go to an event for someone that we feel that we know and really enjoy. I don't think there's another avenue that quite gets us there. Us being the listener and the host and star to that relationship like a podcast. I know video is really popular these days, and I don't want to take anything away from that. But when I'm when I'm watching a video and then I say, but like

what I said before, doesn't matter. But it does. When I'm watching a video, though, I'm usually sitting down watching it. But when I listen to a podcast, I'm out walking my dog or I'm driving somewhere or I'm mowing the lawn. More intimate life stuff. It's just a feeling that you don't get watching videos. That's why I've stuck so strongly to podcasting. And that is why. So you listen to some of the more popular podcasts out there and they can do it however they want.

I'm not saying they're doing it wrong, but quite often you'll hear them say something like, Well, if you're listening to this right now, then do it. Well, of course I'm listening. You know, you don't have to qualify that because I wouldn't have heard it otherwise. Or they'll refer to to all the listeners out there. But if you hear that and then you look around and you're like, well, I'm in my backyard and I'm by myself. And this may seem silly, but it's true. I'm in a very

intimate setting. And if you treat it like that. So the 3 of us are talking and you're like, Lauren, like the 3 of us, there's just me and you. But that's never how I see it. I always see this with you. Well, I had to use you as an example. I always see it as 3 people. There's me, there's Lauren, there's one listener. And I quite often and many hosts are not used to this.

When I'm a guest, I will just talk directly to the listener and refer to Lauren as Lauren instead of talking directly to Lauren, because I understand what people are doing when they're listening to a podcast. And that way you're talking directly to them. If I say, oh, Lauren, to your listeners, I just want to say, well, that's not very intimate, right? That's not like I'm having a conversation with you. I'm sitting at my desk right now. I can see Lauren's face and I can see your face.

And if I have something to say to Lauren, I will look at Lauren. If I have something to say to you, I will look at you. That's what we would do if we all went out to lunch together. I don't randomly talk to everyone in the cafe who might hear what I'm saying. Oh, now I want you to. I could That would be really interesting. Yeah. Next time we go out to lunch, Lauren, we'll we'll try that. Yeah. Go get Bainbridge toast. Yeah. Maybe that oh, we should. If you don't I

know. Know. Blackbird Cafe. I got a text from a friend who was like, I wanna take a ferry somewhere and go to a yarn store, and there's a very beautiful yarn store in Bainbridge. So if that happens, I'm calling you, and we will make that happen. Yeah. I'll do it. You don't even know how that so that's about 45 minutes away from me. May maybe 50 to turn on. How many times I've driven down there just to meet someone

for toast? And and someone will tell me strange thing, but someone will tell me I'm gonna going to be in Seattle. Can we get together? I said, yes. Take the ferry. I'll pick you up. We'll go for toast. And they're like, what? Toast? And I just trust me on this one. I love it. I can't wait to be one of those people. Oh, you're gonna be 1. All these things I was saying about podcasting, Lauren, you're right. Maybe that needs to be in a book. I mean, because I think listen. There's so many people

who do video, who do podcast. Like, I think one of the hardest parts about being a solopreneur is that you kinda look around and you go, that's already been done. That's already been done. But the reality is it's not been done by you in a particular way. And I think that your lens through which you see podcasting in the way that you I'm gonna say the word leverage. I don't mean it, like, duplicitously, but, like, the way you leverage the medium, it

works. I've sat in a room with you and Lee and the people who are your listeners and have come to Masterminds, and I go, oh, like, it's, like, the ultimate filter to help you find your tribe, help you find the people you're going to align with because there's this sense of, like, well, if I like the cut of these guys' jibs, then the people that they attract will they're kind of, like, pre vetted. And I think podcasting a lot of podcasters feel like I'm on stage, and here it is, my show.

And, you know, it gets, like, a little performative, I guess. And I love the more intimate style that it's just conversations. And if someone is willing to hang out with you for an hour or to hear stories or learn something new, that that's about that's something to say thank you to. That's something to honor by continuing to create good content, knowing your role if you're in a host guest situation, that sort of thing. So I think that message needs to be out there more and in in every form, and

so I would read that book. Well, at least I know I've got one copy sold when it is finished. That's all I really need. There you go. I think too, like you said, should we invite people to email me about my word count? I think what we should do is invite people to email you if this is a book they would read. Not to hold your feet to the fire and drag you across the finish line, but to give you a little jet propulsion from behind and say, this would be worthwhile or

have people, like, standing at the the finish line. Like, I would be cheering you on because I think that's more motivating. And if that isn't motivating, if the idea of people reading it isn't motivating, then that's the answer. Right? That's a good point. And I like that idea of that's kind of encouragement motivating when I told people to email me about my word count. And then when they did and I didn't have an update, I was always like, oh, shoot. I gotta tell them.

So there's a there is a difference in the motivation. But, also, I think if people were emailing you, they were saying the other thing. Right? They were saying I would read this. They weren't checking in on you to, like, have you, like, self flagellate. You know? But I do it too with word counts. I mean, like I said, I have 2 half finished fiction manuscripts, 1 half finished nonfiction. I have play in the works. Like, I

love writing. I love creating, and it's just when I do the word count thing, it's just demotivating for me. Like, it's gonna take the time it's gonna take, and you do have to have an awareness of the kinds of word counts you need. But it sounds like you have a map. You know where you're headed. I do. It's right. And I for me, it's more I don't wanna see guaranteed. I'm gonna use the word guaranteed with a asterisk by it, but it's pretty much a guaranteed published

book because I have helps me. I have an imprint with Morgan James Publishing. So, like, there's no good reason to have not done it, except maybe it needed to wait until. So this is interesting. I had not thought of this. Had I published it 2 years ago when I first started it and could have finished it. And I look at what I've done since then. And I thought, well, now as I think about that, there's some good stories. For example, Lauren actually was I will only say a guest. I

will. I will say guest because you understand what that term means before you hear what I say. When my son went away to college, I was feeling a little like, what am I going to do? I'm not a daily influence on his life anymore. So I started a podcast just

for him. I put it on all the channels, but I started a podcast for an audience of 1. I did have the episodes and other people did messages for him. So not really a guest. Just a contributor. Just had a message for him. And that story wouldn't have made it in the book. And it's really changed the way I look at podcasting to some degree of you have some people that try to make podcasts in the radio shows or as Lauren said, I'm on stage and here's my

performance. But what if you are podcasting for 1 person? How would that change what you do? As much as I have podcast in the 200 and 50 or so episodes of that show, I learned things I didn't even know or consider because you do things a little different when you are podcasting for 1 person. And I get Lauren hangs out with some pretty big podcasters. So these numbers are not going to shock anybody. But for a podcast that I made for 1 person, if I had one

download every day, I would have been thrilled. Mission accomplished. That's all I set out to do. And when my son finished his freshman year of college, it was the last time I looked at download numbers because I really never pay attention to them. But I was curious. Well, I wonder how many times this show was listened to during the school year. So there should have been roughly 250 downloads because there were more or less 250 shows. It was meant for 1 person, and it was

downloaded more than 11,000 times. And isn't that interesting? A show meant for 1 person was intriguing enough for that many people to listen to. Wow. That's fascinating. I mean, I feel that's that's the hook. Right? Because there's so many people who are like, I want 11,000 downloads a year. Right? Because that's what it was. Mhmm. Yeah. I think too it dovetails nicely with, like, avatar work, which is something that I talk about a lot with SEO. Like, doing keyword research is gaining insight

into the person you wish to help. It's showing you the language they're using. It gives you a better sense of their struggle. It allows you to empathize with that specific person, that specific question, and then you can see how many individuals are searching that term and decide, you know, what is the bigger pain point to address first. But it is about even with screens between you connecting with 1. Yes. And that is so Lauren has been

to one of the signature events Lee Cockrell and I do, the Creating Magic Mastermind. We do it twice a year. So many people that come to that, Lauren hinted at it, have listened to the podcast for years and that that's part of what brought them there is that relationship they felt they had

with us. And when I say they felt they had, that's not to say it's not real, but it's that relationship they felt they had with us from listening to the show because I make sure that creating Disney magic is a conversation with 3 people and not Lee Cockrell on a stage. It's treating the audience differently, like, they're involved in what you're doing and you're not just putting on a performance. Which to be clear, Lee is exceptional on stage. Yes. She is. You're right. There's that sense

of connection. I've always felt it was so funny because I I used to have a college admissions podcast when I had my test prep company, and people would call and I would pick up the phone. I actually had a phone, which I feel like immediately is weird, but I knew, like, I'm helping parents and their kids. They might want that lifeline to actually chat. So I would pick up the phone and I'd say hello, and they'd be like, oh my god. It's you. Well, it wasn't my dog

wasn't gonna pick up the phone. Like, this is a very small operation, friends, and they loved that. They immediately knew who I was and had a connection with me. But, of course, for me as the podcaster, this relationship was just beginning. And I think you know, so I understand what you're saying when you're like, we have a relationship, but we don't. But it does feel intimate, and it's why you see podcast fans, fangirl or fanboy out when we come to these conferences because we've spent hours

with you. We've poured in so much time. We're connected and bound, and we know about you. And that's where I feel like it's so important, and you're exceptional at this, Jodie, of turning it around and being like, you know all about me already. That is a foregone conclusion. Let me ask questions about you. And I think that's a step that I think a lot of business owners miss. I think you and Lee both do that really beautifully. Well,

thank you first. And then second, I think one of the best compliments I've ever had about podcasting is this and it's happened more than once, is people will meet Lee Cockrell for the first time in person and then tell me I had coffee with Lee and he's exactly like he is on the podcast. And I think, well, first of all, what what did you expect? But second of all, well, thank you because that's the goal of the show, is that Lee is Lee. And I'm glad you felt like he

is in person like he is on the show. Being really grounded in who you are. Yeah. And I and I think there's perhaps an expectation that people think well, I mean, when I listen to Lauren on her podcast, that's Lauren the performer. That's not really Lauren Gagioli. That's Lauren the performer. Or as Siri used to say, Lauren Giggly. She I think she still does. It's not an easy last name. Jody used to call me just so he could hear Siri say my name. Yes.

I would. I would always ask Siri to to call her because it repeats the name back. And, you know, there's another piece that we we didn't get into. I mentioned Sugar Jay earlier kind of as a joke, but there's something to there is something to Sugar Jay. So Sugar Jay is my nickname, but Sugar Jay is also kind of a someone asked me that didn't know. They said, Who is Sugar Jay? And I said, Sugar Jay is the Mark Twain to my Samuel

Clemens. And by that, I mean Sugar Jay is Jody Mayberry exaggerated because I'm more inclined to be a little quiet and keep to myself, but Sugar Jay's not. So Sugar Jay's like Jody Mayberry times 2 because when I am a guest on a show or do my own episodes or I'm on stage or at an event teaching a workshop, I need to be me times 2 because, you know, the regular Jody Mayberry is just a little more quiet, keeps to himself a little more. So I think

that does help. I wouldn't say I'm putting on a performance when I'm on podcast, but it is a little it's like Jody Mayberry times 2. Like, there's Lauren Gagioli is the regular Lauren. Lauren Gagigli, that's Lauren times 2. Oh my gosh. It's your alter ego effect. It's like, for those who didn't follow the Samuel Clemens, Mark Twain, it's the Sasha Farce to your Beyonce. Yeah. That went right by me. Fair you. Yeah. I thought I just you know, for the cool kids in the group.

Yeah. Well, you know, in that in that spirit, Jeff Barnes said Walt Disney's greatest character was Walt Disney because the public Walt Disney was a, like, a very polished version of the real Walt Disney. Yeah. Someone

oh, there's a great line. Someone once said, like, I've always wanted to meet Cary Grant, and Cary Grant's reply was like, me too. He never felt like he was that suave, you know, Hollywood star. And I think anybody who's performing public facing, putting our voice out there, it is hard work. And that idea of the alter ego can be really powerful to help you not be duplicitous or less authentic, but to, like, to use the Disney term, like, plus up so that you

can genuinely connect and help. And I think that the more you can do that along an authentic track, you're not stepping outside of your own self in terms of, like, core values and things like that. But the more you can, like, lean in and say this is the most me, like, the more distilled essence as it were, the better off the work can be and, therefore, the more resonant it can be and, therefore, the more people you can help. I like it. I think that's right.

What a great conversation with Lauren. What we talked about there at the end, I think, is an important concept to grasp and get a hold of. No matter what you call it, it could be an alter ego. You could say plus it up. You could say you times 2. This is an idea that can help you connect with people when you're on a podcast, on a stage, or even on a Zoom call. Heck, you could even use it when you write emails. You're not trying to be someone else. You're just being yourself,

just plussed up a little bit. You times 2. Well, if you enjoyed this interview, check out the Digital Entrepreneur Toolkit podcast hosted by Lauren Gagioli. You can find it wherever you listen to this podcast. Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Jodi Mayberry Show. Righto. Thanks for the yarn, but I'm gonna bail. It's Sugar Jay.