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Meaning life. Man, I like this man letting butterfly Latin in wave big then in force. Man, you gonna cause a threefold letting fat a mild away man, Nobody see nobody see you know need knowing man story and you got back to protect that. Go back to Dagon panel.
All right, Cee Jangle, Welcome back to Jay Burdensto. How are you doing that?
I'm doing good. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, man, I'm glad to have you back. On glad to actually have a conversation face to face. So I figured this will be a more topical, more news related show than normal. But there are two big stories with a connecting line that I want to cover. The first, obviously, is now Abigail Spanberger is the governor of my home
state of Virginia. And as the kids say, the Democrats are going hard in the paint right there, doing all the sort of things that we were assured moderate Democrats never do as regards to the Second Amendment, abortion of anti white discrimination. And that's one part of it. Another one is this anti Christian protest in Minneapolis. Right. There's a pastor, there's an official at the church who may or may not be connected to ICE, and so Don Lemon and a number of other you know, kind of
radical left activists storm the church, right. And the through line is basically, this is what happens when you lose the idea that this is some sort of contest between gentlemen that the GOP can sync back into politics as it were, is plainly, completely and totally absurd, right, This is not how it works. So just a little bit of context there, because people do listen to these well after the fact, and so I wanted to provide sort
of a primer there. But CJ, I'm curious, what are your thoughts on both of these incidents and what do you think that we should learn from them.
Well, I think there's a couple of different layers here. One. I think that there's this tendency in politics to think that like, once we get through this little hurdle, these are very bad people, we can let them out and then things can go back to normal. And people don't understand that history has a tragic sense to it, and
there are moments in history. I mean, as Lennon said, there are weeks where decades happened, and we're kind of in one of those historic world historic moments, and the stakes are so high that both sides kind of know that if they lose, the other side is going to
take it all the way. The problem is is that the GOP classic GOP, going back a very long time, half a century or more, they've always approached the issue like, well, we're going to take the path, We're gonna take the high path, we're going to do the high road, and we're not going to do what is necessary to defeat the enemy. Because the Democrats are not our enemy. They're actually just on another side of the aisle. But we're all one people. That's kind of the way they approach it.
Historic Democrats have generally, i mean, this isn't this hasn't always been the way that Democrats are. Right, So, like after the war, both sides were kind of right there in the middle. They were working hard to make sure that the radical factions to the GOP's right and to the Democrats left never really got into power. So we talk about things like you know, Bill Buckley, and his role was to sort of make sure that those on the extreme fringes of the right didn't actually have any
influence on the conservative movement. So he did his job very well. Actually, you know, people call him a failure, but actually his job was to keep the extreme right from accessing, you know, the organs of narrative formation and of political power itself, and he was very successful, and in fact, he was more successful than the Democrats were. They had their own people that were there to keep the radical left out and they failed. So Buckley actually
did better. And so all of this what we see now is the Democrats have been much more infiltrated by the their own radicals, whereas the GOP hasn't actually been infiltrated very well at all with right wing radicals. They've actually the GOP establishment has done a much better job at holding the fort down and staying true to their
liberal ideals. The problem is that now we're in a situation where we have these the conservative side of the post war consensus is going to war with an increasingly radicalized left, and the radicalized left wants blood, and the conservative post war establishment wants to return to the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties, and in that fight, it's obvious who's going to win. What you see in Virginia is the fruition of that these people are ready for blood,
and the GOP still doesn't get it. And so what you're seeing is this realization among the Democrats that the American people are pissed off. They are done with democracy, they are done with constitutional principles which have always been you against them, always been used against initiatives that can be leveraged in order to take back their country, take
back their heritage, and so they're done with it. They're like, look, if we're gonna lose any ways, if we're gonna lose our country anyways, we might as well go all the way. The problem is is that all of the people in power that nominally represent them, they do not see things that way at all. And so that's what's happening. The
Democrats understand that the stakes are so high. The American people want blood, and they know that if this younger generation, you know, twenties and thirty year old, if they get any any if they get any closer to power, their days are numbered. And the you know, their their liberal hegemony is days are numbered as well, and so that's part of the problem. They have to make sure that, you know, can right wingers never get close to power, and that's what they're prepared to do, and they don't.
They're not really going to face any opposition because, as you said, especially state level geopeers are incredibly pathetic, and so they're not prepared to do anything. And so, you know, just kind of casting out what would happen if the reply and look, I'm not a Republican advocate or partisan,
like I don't really care that much for the GOP. However, you know, a GOP winning in twenty six and twenty eight continues to buy us time, and that's what we need is time to organize, time to form the ranks, time to build up the courage to actually fight back, because the present establishment, the old guard that still exists in Washington and the Conservative movement is completely unprepared for what's coming down the pipeline. So when I say the GOP needs to win, it's not because I care all
that much for the GOP. It's because I recognize the Democrats are much more radicalized than the GOP and just having the inability of power to kind of, you know, work in lockstep with itself in order to push us away and basically decimate us, that's what we need. We need that time, and the Democrats know that the Democrats do not want us to have that time, and so therefore they will do whatever it takes to get into power.
And once they have that power, they will seek to crush their enemy for all time, which is the complete opposite perspective that the GOP has.
Well, certainly, this reminds me of something that my friend Peter Brimolo said in his appearance on Tucker, which is quite good. If you haven't listened to it, listener, you should, because one of the things that he talks about is that there are these sort of implicit communities. When he used the example of NASCAR for example, he's like, no one at NASCAR wants to be a sport associated with
the white working claves. They've tried to distance themselves from that fan base, and yet nonetheless that is the association. And somewhat similarly, the GOP is the Party of Americans, right, people who are actually from here, who don't have anywhere else to go, who are religious. And so I share your feelings. I don't particularly like the party at all, really, but it's really the only game we got, at least,
you know, as the state of play stands. And so when you see this sort of limpristed behavior, right, you see this sort of unwillingness to do something that would provoke any sort of negative reaction from your opponents, Well, we've seen where that goes. We see the consequences. Obviously. I had, you know, our mutual friend and a risk Aron not too long ago to discuss the broader situation in Minnesota, and that was a common note in his
comments as well. The Minnesota GOP is by and large completely useless, right, unwilling to view politics as it is currently, which is sad to say, an existential struggle, right, I don't like that. I don't wish that were the case. But fundamentally pretending as if we are in this era of good feelings, obviously referring to a different era, but we'll keep it just as a conversation piece. It doesn't make it true, right, Just by pretending it doesn't make
it happen. Conservatives are more than willing to point this out when it comes to transsexuals or others, and so to me, it's incredibly baffling, especially because as we've seen in Virginia, as we've seen in Minnesota, or even on places like Blue Sky, the consequences are quite clear. Your way of life will be made illegal, it will be impossible to live as you want to, or in the case of prominent politicians, you'll go to jail, or you'll go to the Hague. Right, they will ruin your life.
We saw this happen, or at least a solid attempt at it, between the first and second Trump presidency, and so I'm curious you'd think, even just cynically, that these people would act out of self preservation. Why do you think that conservative leaders for whatever that term is construed to mean. Are not aware of this danger to them, if not to their.
Voters, because they don't operate with you know, a classical political mind. They operate much more with a with with with like a series of narcissism where they can get payoffs and payouts and and and financial benefits. And it's basically like a big party to them. You know, it's all it's all a club. I mean, that's that's like
classic like Republican donor level dynamics. Is it's all a big club where you can I mean, this is this is why all they care about is like business, because the GOP exists basically to represent uh economic interests, and so that's what they care about. They they're not thinking in terms of politics. Classical politics was which is the class a friend and enemy along existential lines. And so
they they have been there. They're just so absorbed in the corruption of like a narcissistic style of capitalism or whatever you want to call it, that they've politics to them actually is something of the past. And so and so I would say that the Democrat have much better political minds. They're much more you know, for all of their ideals or whatever. They're much better at recognizing the realistic, the realism of politics. I'll say this too. You know, we talked like I see this all the time on
Twitter and it drives me crazy. So I'm going to take the opportunity to to push back on it. But like I always see from the like the maga, the paid maggot influencers that like they'll show a picture of some like Islamic gathering in Dearborn or in Texas or in New York or other places like that, and they'll say, like it's over, It's Michigan is lost forever. You know, they've you know, they've they've won. It's it's lost. And
like they keep saying these things. And now Virginia is going through these this own you know, series of of like really intense radical legal initiatives to show up their own power in Virginia, and so these same maggot influencers are saying Virginia's cooked, it's over.
It's like at KFC, where are doing a deal on our mini Philates, ten Mini Phillips for just twelve year of fifty that's sure to fill you up, like I'm filling this time up. Just stretchchate ice, how'd your fill? Okay, I'll go, but make sure you have your philiphilates. Grab a book up before the dealers up on fabbe fultecencs at KFC dot ie okay, bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye.
They're they're they themselves, these MAGA influences are they're not thinking politically, they're thinking within the bounds of liberal democracy. And since these these places are basically utilizing soft power to shore up their own hegemony in all of these places, the MAGA influencers are still operating on a post war paradigm, and so they can't see that politics actually can return and you actually can defeat these things because these are
actually incredibly weak people. What they're utilizing is increasingly depleted political structures, and so you can defeat them. You just can't defeat them within the paradigm of electoral democracy. And that's what people have to that's what the right wing has to understand. The problem is is that the radicalized right is so far to the right of the GOP establishment that we have nobody willing to actually wield power in an effective way. But places like Virginia and Dearport
and dearborn in Texas. They could be crushed by you know, by power overnight if they really wanted to. I mean, you see this all throughout the twentieth century in Europe in extraordinary situations. You know, power can do extraordinary things, and so we shouldn't We shouldn't approach it like it's lost forever. But what we need to realize is that
politics is returning. Politics has returned that we need to operate on a friend enemy paradigm, and the GOP is basically like a temporary ally that we can use for our benefit, to buy us time to push our agenda, little bits here and there, But ultimately we have to we have to see this through and we have to put an end to this. You know, post war liberalism is killing us and it's not sustainable.
Well CJ. That sounds very woke, right of you. How dare you look at the people who have won every major political conflict domestically in the last eight years and try to learn from that. You should be running the same playbook that the losers have. Of course, I'm slightly joking, of course, but what is your retort to those who say, you know, even worse than losing is becoming like the woke left. What do you say in response to that?
I think American history is full of heroes who took extraordinary measures in extraordinary times. I mean, the entire American Revolution was illegal. It was completely against Like you're not allowed as a colony to you know, declare war on and rebel against the British Empire. That's that's against the law. Right, So like our own our own American spirit is full of heroes and people who declared the state of the exception. George Washington and all the other rebels declared the state
of exception. Andrew Jackson basically did the same thing in numerous ways. And so like the idea that this is somehow, this like eternal law, that we have to adhere to these principles even when they've exploited against us, is something that I think is ridiculous and suicidal. But also I think if they want to claim that what we're doing is where we are, if by woke right they mean that we are challenging the established hegemony of liberal democracy,
then okay, you can call me whatever you want. I don't It doesn't really bother me to be called I've been called worse names, right, Like, that's that's the answer, is we've been called worse names. I mean, Eisenhower deported you know, a million illegals, and in people today called Trump like literally Hitler for deporting what to hundred and fifty thousand people. So like, it doesn't these words can't affect us anymore if they want to call us woke, right,
and all that means is that we've abandoned liberal democracy. Okay, that's fine, you know, so we can't get caught up in these in these labels that are are shot at as those that's loser think actually and loser think gets all caught up in perception. They care what the enemy thinks of them, and they want to be perceived as better in the light of those who want them dead. And that's that's a recipe for political disaster and also you know, civilizational disaster. You know, not even just you know,
political disaster in electoral terms, but also civilizational disaster. These people very clearly want our way of life liquidated, and they want to see us banish from the face of the earth. And that's the stake not looking.
Bad well, and you see that very much with the inability of Republicans in power to make any meaningful changes. It was sort of telling, right. I think it was Youngkin's one of his last comments right the day before he transferred power was you know, what was your biggest regret in office? And he had this sort of globe comment like, oh, I'm sad we couldn't get the sports
team a new stadium in my state of Virginia. And I thought it was very telling because it's like, well, look, man, like you came within two thousand votes of completely and totally carrying the state. It was very narrow. You could have had a trifecta. And okay, so that indicates that at least four years ago this was in play. I understand you have the whole Loud County scandal which was a part of that, But what did you do in your time and power? Okay, you made the DMV work better.
I appreciate that, but there was really no desire to expand your power. There was no desire to make that state more like how your voters want to be. Everything was simply put on pause. We imported hundreds of thousands of new guests, if you will, and roundly defeated complete and total destruction and you see that, and a large part of it is because he did try to make very tepid reforms to education and a few other things.
And as soon as he was yelled at, as soon as they said, oh you know, you're just like Trump, You're just like Orange Man. Oh nope, we're not doing that anymore. I need to go back to my big business corporate consulting job. That the one interest group that did quite well under him. And look, you know, I'm a little bit salty about this because my life is likely going to be not so much fun for the
next little bit. And okay, fair enough, But that same pattern you see over and over again that very very few Republicans, the Indiana GOP is another example, are willing to play politics, are willing to recognize that this is is existential, as you've said, And so given that the frustration is understanding is understandable. Rather because you made a
generational point, and it's one that I've identified as well. Obviously, you have the big ticket issues that are sort of signifiers of other things, you know, immigration, the state of Israel, racial representations, shall we say that, are you know, signifiers of a broader generational change. But to me, I'm genuinely curious what becomes of the red state Republican because they're
older right there. There are not a lot of guys in there, you know, even in gen X who I would consider in that kind of classic you know, Indian a Republican mold. But from what I see, the base is incredibly radical. And you see this with I had Mark Mitchell from resmusin on not too long ago, and he was talking about this, that there's this shocking divide on Republicans or concern it is rather plus or minus forty, where the under forty crowd is basically as you said,
they want to see blood. They don't really care how it happens, but they want you know, Judge Bosberg in particular, but you know you can extend that to other figures. They want his head on a metaphorical pike, like yeah, charge him, throw them in jail, whatever, We don't care. And I think that the goal of the Democrats, as far as I see it, is effectively to pull so many people into the country that politics doesn't exist anymore.
They can become a one party state. And to me, I don't think there's really any getting away from politics. So I'm curious, you know, what do you see the future looking like, you know, if you have this increasing gap between the political class and you know, a radicalizing base, particularly of young white guys.
Yeah, I am so. I've actually one theme that is constantly debated on the right is whether the solution is going to come from more regional initiatives where people kind of shore up their power and surround themselves with allied people in the face of a national trend that's seeking to disenfranchise them, or whether it's going to have to come from the center and all political power initiative is going to have to be absorbed into something at the
at the national level. And for most of my you know, political career is the wrong word, but like for you know, most of the time that I've been commenting and thinking about this stuff, I've actually taken the more decentralized approach. And I think a lot of others are you take
on the same but I've actually shifted gears. I don't think that's possible anymore because of technology and because of the sheer civilizational volume of what's happening in terms of you know, the import the you know, importing of migrants from the Third World and all of that stuff. I actually think it's going to have to come from the center, and it's going to have to be you know, we're going to have to transform from a like republican name only to a formal empire, and that's the only way
we're going to get out of this. So I actually have much more of a centralizing approach to this, and so I think that basically state level and county level, you know, all of those, all of those things are going to basically have to be you know, held in check by some sort of power figure at the top. I don't think that there's any other way out because I don't think that any attempt to regionally disassociate from
the halls of power is going to be possible. I don't think that any attempt at the top too is going to let them get away with any like dissent or secession or nullification or any of those outdated concepts. And I think that tech is actually becoming much more of a centralizing force than people may have previously anticipate. I think we're going to have to go through a period of increased centralization. I think there's going to be
a multipolarity to world affairs. I really think that things are going to be divided up, like with the powers in Asia, and you know, the America is going to have to kind of be all under one you know, under one head, not not necessarily formally, but it's going to have like we're going to have to be a power player or nothing. I think that's the only way
out is to have those things. So to answer your question specifically, I think the answer is going to come from I've actually been talking about this for a while, but I think the influence of Congress over the next ten to twenty years is actually going to become less and less important. And you can see this in the initiatives that the Trump administration has taken in Greenland, in Venezuela.
They're talking about Cuba and other places like that, where they're basically seizing assets and they're selling them on the market and they've basically acute eimulated for themselves tens of billions of dollars that they control. The Trump administration, the executive state, is taking control of these resources. Well, what does that mean. It means it doesn't need to go to the American people, It doesn't need to go to
Congress for money. You know, if it seizes those assets and sells them, they don't need Congress Congress's permission to fund their initiatives. And so what's happening is Congress is going to increase their petty squabbles. They're going to continue to be sort of a basically like a clown show that has no impact on power, and there's going to be extraordinary existential political situations that the executive state is
going to have to act upon. It's going to have its own budget, it's going to have its own infrastructure. I mean, think about ice. You know, the Trump administration basically has this army of people that are in the middle of being trained. They have all of these contracts for all types of different infrastructure and other equipment and mechanisms that they now have, and they have a bigger
budget than the Marines. They've already been fully funded, and they have extra funding that's basically at the discretion of the executive branch. And so I think what's going to happen is this is going to be an executive led nation, and that executive led nation is going to take on the characteristics of empire. An empire has to continue to grow or it dies. And so I think that's kind of the inevitable trend of the second quarter of the
twenty first century. And so all the little squabbling at the state level, all the GOP conservatives that are too passive and too paralyzed to take any actual political action, it's not going to matter anyway, because all the power is going to be in the executive branch. And I think that's inevitable.
Well, and you mentioned earlier the kind of weak and ineffectual nature of these leaders on the political left, and to me, it very much reminds me of Machiavelli's distinction between boxes and lions. It might not be Machiavelli, My citation on any Italian elite theorist sort of runs together and Italian said this, but he made the distinction again
between foxes and lions. Right, the lion is sort of the dictatorial figure, the man who rules by strength, whereas the fox is a manager right to someone who is competent with soft power. And to be honest, we have been in an era of foxes. There is a cyclical nature to this, you know, the foxes create a sort of Gordian knot. Right, this impossible problem with managers crawling all over it until a strong man comes up with the sword, cuts it in half, right, solves the intractable
issue on the other end. And we're probably quite a long time from this sort of cycle. But you know, a lion regime, if you will, becomes ossified, becomes stultified. You can think of the you know, the French monarchy right before the revolution, you know, kind of overbound. It wasn't alive anymore. And so look again, there is a cyclical nature to this. But to me, as far as I'm aware, that's the only way to get out of it.
There must be a man, a guy. And similarly, one of the other things that's come up in both Minnesota and soon to be in Virginia is how much of our enemies are mercenaries. They're bribed, they get paid to do what they do. And we understand, of course from Mochy Velly, the dangers of mercenaries. They are at the
risk of being tautological mercenary. You know, they're there for the money, they're there for the gibbs, and when those gibs dry up, or when there's a chance of real consequences, when there's a chance of you know, actually having to, you know, to face defeat. They tend to cut their losses, live to fight another day, live to collect another paycheck.
And I think another aspect of this, And you know, I've been very vocal about my criticisms of the Trump administration, so you know, don't take this to be you know me again, as the kids say, glazed him. But Trump is showing us something different from politics, which is personal loyalty, right, not loyalty to an institution, the GOP or whatever, but loyalty to a man. Right. I like that guy because he does X y Z for me. And you said earlier, right,
you were talking about the return of politics. That's another part of it. That personal loyalty is a much stronger bond, even if it is wasted, even if it is not exploited to the degree that it could be. Then these sort of mercenary impulses. Now, look, it's always a little both, right, Like the Legion is chanting Caesar because they love Caesar, but also because you know, you enslave and or kill two million goals and everyone gets paid.
Right.
So I'm not trying to say it's in either or, but I think in my mind, I think that that is very much the way of things, right, that this sort of institutional loyalty is very much an aberration in human affairs. And I think it depended on a broad conception that the system worked, a broad conception that these
institutions had our respect and were legitimate. But as you've said, really, I mean for my entire life, but increasingly through the Biden years, and now that institutional cache has been spent, there's very little left in the piggybank, so to speak. And so if that is the source of your legitimacy, if that's the source of your kind of cachet or simply bribery, I don't necessarily know how that lasts when situation, when the situation deteriorates, when things get actually difficult, when
politics becomes actually nasty. I realize I've thrown a bunch of you there, CJ. But I'll let you react.
Yeah. One thing that stood out to me was just the idea of the personality that can kind of capture the imaginationation and the loyalty of the people or whoever. And I think, I think what happens in the cycle of history is that personality becomes you know, part of part of a like a like a founding momentum for a people, and so eventually that can ossify into allegiance to a system or a nation or something metaphysical. But
it starts with a personality. And in a situation when things have become so paralyzed and corrupted and ossified, that's when the personality needs to return. So this is kind of like a Thomas Carlyle point is, Uh, these these types of cycles come and go, and so you don't always need to have the personality there. But the purpose of the personality is to reignite the engine, so to speak. So like the people in England, you know, were once loyal to King Alfred, and they were you know, he
was their champion, he was their hero. He was sort of the founding figure of the English people, you know in some ways. And I know history is complex, but he's an example of one of these types of personalities. And then you know, history isn't full of a constant
flow of these types of personalities. And so he leaves the person the hero leaves his mark on history, and the systems begin to operate in his name, and they try to operate in accordance with his vision, and that dissipates over time, and it usually, you know, it could last decades, it could last centuries. In the English situation,
it lasted you know, a thousand years or more. And so that was a that was a blessing that even like Anglo Americans had in their context, is they were able to you know, like a lot of people don't notice, but the entire ethos of the American founding was based on their appreciation for their own English heritage. But that
English heritage was founded, you know, by personalities. But the system became corrupted, and so you have figures like George Washington that can reignite it and they can help them reinvigorate that spirit. And so you need heroes as well. And heroes are the ones that you know, that break back into history and reassert the dominance and the importance of politics and the reality of politics. Andrew Jackson was
another figure like this. And so from time to time you have these when the system becomes so corrupted and ossify that nothing's actually functioning appropriately, you need that person to come back in and remind people that they are loyalty, that their loyalty to flesh and blood is more paramount than their loyalty to systems. And I think Donald Trump sort of quasi anticipated that type of figure, that type of historic figure. I don't know if he is a
man of history. It doesn't appear so, but you need someone like that. But he's definitely reawakening our imaginations and reminding us that better things are possible, that we don't have to accept the way things have been for the last half century, that our grand children don't have to
suffer under that. And so these things, these examples that we're giving in Minnesota, in Virginia and else in Texas and elsewhere in the United States, are actually good because it's reminding people that there that there are more important priorities than just elections and the democratic mechanisms and all of these things that we've been taught to be loyal to. Well, actually,
we shouldn't just be loyalty to loyal to systems. We should only be loyal systems when they reflect the personality and the heroic contributions of a founding figure.
Well, and I mean, you could even look at you know, f FDR in that light. And obviously his project didn't last as long, but we are still very much in the crumbling remains of the house he built. The way our government government works was sort of decided by FDR. And it's funny I was sort of you know, joking,
of course about the whole woke right brigade. I have you know, written and spoken about them at length because I think there's sort of an interesting fracture happening in the conservative movement, sort of analogous to again the Buckley
Heighte purges of yesteryear. But it is always interesting to me that these these conservatives are really the only ones who still believe in that system anymore, who still believe in you know, the politics of kind of FDR at all, you know, all of that system in which you know, the American Empire and its form was sort of created. Just an interesting uh side there on your your broader point about you know, centralization versus these kind of splinter movements.
And maybe this is you know, typical of you know, my age or demographic, but generally I'm at the sort of point where I actually don't really care what we do that fixes this. Like, to be perfectly honest, I think that many people who or you know, like myself, perhaps less politically well educated, are are sort of feeling at a loss, right, sort of feeling as if like, well, whatever it is, make this go away, make this stop.
And I wonder almost if and you see this, I think in the kind of you know, post liberal crowd as well as if there is sort of a conscious rejection or unconscious whichever one, rejection of ideology, right, rejecting of some kind of totalizing system. I mean, honestly, you
saw the same thing happen to the libertarian sphere. You know, there are a great number of post libertarians, and so I'm curious, do you think that you know, ideology is going away at least in an explicit form, or do you think that this is sort of a function of human organization.
Yeah, so I think that ideology adapts to real world needs, and so ideology is always important because you need something that can be communicated and you know, motiva, your brothers. And I think that ideology is something that humans, you know, grasp onto and articulate in the service of their actual needs.
And so I don't know if I would say that ideology is going away, but I would say that an ideology that is unconnected to the real world needs and identity of a people is in the long run dissipates, and so I think that what's going to happen is the right wing is going to adopt for itself an ideology that justifies their own needs. It's going to justify
their own actions. It's going to justify the things that need to be done in order to preserve their way of life, or not even preserve, but recapture reinstate their way of life. Ideology is going to come into the equation. I mean, you see this in figures like Muldbug and Nick Land and you know pek Q and just you know, the two of us, Like, we are constantly talking about ideas, and ideology needs to be adjusted, constantly adjusting to the
needs of our people. And so ideology, I think it gets a bad rap among conservatives, and I think that there's a case to be made for not idolizing ideology and not making it the like the the kind of like the fixed star that we can't move from. But I also think that we need to you know, develop and continue to develop our own ideology, which which needs to be in flux in accordance with where we're at,
the characteristics of our enemy. The tools that we have at our disposal, the mechanisms and systems that are being waged and wielded against us. All these things go into the making of an ideology that can justify and sanction our political activity. So our ideology is actually brilliant right now.
It's it's it's infused with lessons from the past. It's infused with Carl Schmidt and De Maestra, even Aristotle, it's infused with you know, John Calhoun, It's infused with you know, all kinds of thinkers from Europe in the twentieth century, from America in the nineteenth century, from the classical age. We have these things that we can use at our disposal, so we don't have to create it excellent helo like from scratch. We don't have to create our own ideology
from scratch. But we can use and leverage ideological tools from our own heritage and deploy them for our current situation in order to get what we need out of them.
Yeah, I'm curious. I think that your description is quite accurate there. One of the things that I've been watching and someone interested in is the attempted sort of reconstitution of the neo cons One of the things that I've been talking about for weeks now, is that there seems to be a deliberate sort of attack line right that runs something like, you have this dangerous woke right. They've already gotten to your kids. Cut your kids out, whether
that's literal or at a place like Heritage Right. Get rid of the young staffers, but also get rid of figures like Okay, well one tes he's representative of that group. He talked to Tucker, so get rid of him. Obviously there's other things going on there, but the real end goal of that attack seems to be JD.
Vans.
Over and over again, we see this connection made. You know, you have figures like I'll shoot I can't have that, Rod Dreer, others like Brilin Hollyhand who wrote an article wrote an article about this. But point is, there seems to be this desire to create this sort of string of red thread linking the the woke right too JD. Vans, coming from all of your favorites, all the old neokons
who are still kicking around. And so I'm curious, what if any danger do you see coming from the neo conservatives and why do they seem to be so focused on JD.
Vans Are you are you? Are you ask? Are you saying that the neocons are very anti Vance? Is that what you're saying? Yes?
Yes, and are deliberately trying to tie him to this woke right radical group in scare quotes wherever applicable.
Of course, Yeah, I think that they're just like pissy and desperate. I mean to be honest, like I think I think Vance. And it's funny because I, you know, I have I have somewhat mixed, you know, feelings about Vance. I'm a very like I'm one of those guys that's been you know, I recognize that we've been constantly betrayed over and over again by people that are supposed to save us. And but I do I am on the
somewhat pro Vance side. And the reason for that is because I think that you know, people will point to like other like like personal you know hang ups that he that he might have that would like Jade, his vision of what American needs, like financial connections that he has to very powerful you know, spot like you know, power players in the American economics system, you know, especially
in big tech and all of that big finance. But what I would say is that a lot, so many of us, millions of us, have gone through a massive transformation, and a lot of us kind of were radicalized, so to speak, after the two thousand and eight crisis, and
so we basically like dissented from establishment politics altogether. So many of us were Ron Pollyan types, and so we had that libertarian moment when we thought that the best way to get rid of, you know, out of the totalitarian characteristic of managerial democracy in America was to pursue the libertarian pathways and to pursue private business and private society and all of those mechanisms that could be used as a shield to protect ourselves from power. And I
think people like JD. Vance connected with people like Peter Teel and you know the guy who founded Twitter, I forget his name. So like all those guys kind of went down that path as well, each in their own way. And for some of us, we've realized that that's actually completely untenable. You can't confront power by you know, leaving the system. That's you have to confront power with power. And I think we've all gone through that transformation, and
I think JD. Vance and others in his circles have also gone through that transformation, and maybe they're not quite as radicalized as us. But I do know for a fact that they have staffers and people in their ear that are our guys. They work, they operate within our circles, they talk to us, they're in our group chats. So I think that the Neo con concern about Vance is a result of their own ineptitude and their own recognition
that they're on the way out. They have no popularity anymore, and that Vance and some of the people that he operates with, including you know friends of mine, they they actually are ideologically set on destroying the the residues of neo conservative thinking in Washington, and so they're concerned that a Vance rise represents the complete liquidation of everything that they've contributed to the American political system since the nineteen nineties.
And I think that's true. I think that Vance does represent that because Vance has connections to people on the right wing that are much more resolute in their right wingness compared to the people in Trump's circles. Trump is opening a lot of doors, but the people that Vance has on staff, including like Tucker Carlson's son, you know, they're a lot more radicalized than Trump's staffers, except for like maybe Stephen Miller or something. So I think that
advance does represent a very healthy trend. Now you could say, okay, but he's got all these connections to very you know, powerful people that don't have our best interests at heart. Well, here's the thing. If you want to actually pay politics, then you actually have to make compromises. You have to actually deal with the reality of political structures and dynamics. You can't pretend like you can have a political purity. That's the libertarian dream, and it's stupid to create a
right wing version of it. If you want to be realists, if you want to actually engage with the state in the nature of political dynamics as they currently exist, then you have to open the doors to these types of people. Does that mean they're your allies forever? No, there's no you know, there's no forever allies at all. But you have to work with them. And politics is constantly flowing, it's always in flux. Allies and enemies are changing hands all the time, and there's no end to it. That's
the nature of political life. And so I think that we have to make these with these deals with these people temporarily to bias time, to build momentum, to create a robust coalition, and to keep moving forward. And so I do think that someone like Vance represents that for us, and he is good for us, and that's why the neo cons despise.
Him slightly shipping gears. But you mentioned Stephen Miller, who might be my favorite sort of super villain in training.
Right.
You could just imagine him, you know, screaming like that that famous scene from you know, the movie about Hitler and the fear of Unker, just demanding Trump to you know, machine gun six thousand protesters or whatever. But nonetheless, this does bring up, of course, the question of Minneapolis, right, both the challenges to federal authority coming from their local
politicians as well as you know, the anti ice riots. Uh, this is sort of a layup, right, But why does this matter, right, more than just the number of people being deported? Why is the Trump administration pushing so hard on this issue?
Right?
Why does it Why is it important?
Why are they pushing so hard on the deportation.
Issue, specifically with regards to Minnesota.
Well, I think that they, I think that they recognize that the nature of what's happening with what I call replacement migration is it's extremely coordinated and organized, and so hypothetically it's possible to bring the military in and just you know, grab a bunch of people and deport them and all that. That's that's one thing, and you know, there's a lot of there's some disappointment that more of
that's not happening. I think there's reasons for that. But at the end of the day, these these migrants that are coming over in hordes are not doing this out of their own initiative like they're described as like with things like well they're coming from war torn areas or their climate migrants, and they're because their own you know, areas are no longer agriculturally sustainable and all these things.
But actually they're being paid to come here. They're being facilitated that someone's providing their boats and their clothes and the planes and all of these things. And so you have to attack the organizations. And so Minnesota is ground zero for a lot of this stuff, not only because of its official government infrastructure, but also because of all
the charities and NGOs that are hosted there. I mean, the Lutheran Church, the Catholic Church, all these charities adjacent to those churches are all involved in this stuff, and they're all headquartered in Minnesota. And so in order to do this, you have to create severe pressure so that these people basically cannot operate anymore, because you have to you have to cut off the snake at the head,
and not just the consequences of the snake. You have to you have to go into the heat of battle and turn off the actual power mechanisms that are facilitating these things. You have tens of millions of people that are coming here that could not happen without international infrastructure, and so that international infrastructure has to be shut down.
And so I think if Trump has one legacy, it's going to be that as people like Pete Hegseth and others kind of work to reform the military, those types of people can be deployed later in order to, uh, you know, help deportation continue to ramp up. But that's going to take decades. Like deportation, like I have a you know, one of my you know, biggest tweets from a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago, which that deportationism has to become a way of life for
America for the next hundred years. Our grandchildren are going to be participating in the Deportation Department. So deportations are not something that's going to last for the next administration. It's going to have to become a way of life. It's going to have to be part of our national soul. We have an agriculture Department, we have the FDA, we have this big intelligence agents. Well, we're gonna have to
have a deportation agency. So deportations that are not something that Trump's just going to one and done, figure it out. It's going to have to become part of the Western way of life, like all all of Western Europe has to take part in remigration. Remigrationism actually has to go into our ideologically ideological complex. So I think what Trump's doing is he's trying to shut down the organized characteristics
of replacement migration. He's got to shut off the funding, he's got to shut off the incentive structures he's got to send he's got to shut down the corruption complex. All of that stuff is what he has to do, and he's got three more years to do this. In every other major state. The hardest one is actually going to be Texas in California. But the point is that
he has to keep going on this. So I don't know if you heard me, but I think my internet cut out, but I kept talking because it's privately recorded so or you know, locally recorded. So basically my point, my point though is shoot, okay, well I'm gonna I'm gonna keep trying, hopefully it'll reset here. Well, let me finish my let me finish my thought. Though. So Trump has to shut down the organized components of this, and then that's going to set the groundwork for a multi
decade initiative to actually deport people. Formally, the deportations might have to come in a few years, but shutting down the organizations, the incentive structures, the NGOs, the charities, that has to be the most important thing, because that's the mechanism that the that the migrationists are going to use to fight back against trump Ism.
Well, and there's one other thing as well, which you know, I think needs to be said that this is ultimately a fight for legitimacy where if you, if you have seeded the monopoly on violence, you aren't really in charge anymore. And you know, myself and many other have criticized the administration for allowing their authority to be superseded by the judiciary. Right,
that's an issue that needs to be solved. And somewhat similarly, if you get chased out of town by you know, effectively an insurgency, we're not really in charge anymore, or at least in the same way. And so I think as well that that's another element to this, which is that the Trump administration must win in order to remain
in legitimate political force. This is again existential for them in a way that simply, you know, two thousand versus ten thousand or however many thousand people are or are not deported, It has become a question of do you have the right to rule? And I think that's something as well that needs to be mentioned.
M Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with that. That's part of it too. It's like you got to legitimate your power here. I mean, that's that's part of I mean, Oron McIntyre is really good on this issue. But like nobody knows who's actually in charge here. I mean the nature of the deep state, the regime is so decentralized and there's there's actually like almost no one on top it kind of has this completely like entrenched, decentralized character
to it, and so that's exactly right. You have to have a personality that says, actually, the system is not in charge, I'm in charge. And and once that happens, you know, politics is back.
So CJ, this has been a fascinating conversation. If people want to find more of your work, what's a good way for them to do that?
Yeah, I mean the best way is just to follow me on Twitter or x at Contra mordor. That's that's basically the only thing I need to shill. I mean, I'm doing all kinds of different projects, you know, regionally here in Tennessee with friends including Andrewisker and others. But that's that's where you'll find me, is X sure.
I will also link to your podcast with Andrew, which is a ton of fun. I try to catch it when I can, so I highly recommend that. As far as my stuff, the Jay Burton Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you want to listen to podcasts, we want the episodes early in d free. You could throw me a few bucks on Patreon, Substack or gum Road. Look, guys, I know it's annoying. I don't like doing them, but
it's what I do, right. I gotta pay my mortgage and soon my massively increased tax bill thanks to Abigail Spanberger. No points for guessing. Additionally, you could check out our sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. JD's good at what he does. You should support him. He's a friend, both personally and on a business level. Again, CJ, thanks so much, man, this was a ton of fun. Oh actually, one more thing I forgot. I'm supposed to tell you about this. I not you, CJ, the audience, but I guess if
you want to know, you're allowed to listen. I have an article coming out in the next edition of Chronicles magazine, so if you want a physical copy, you can head over there get a subscription. It's well worth it, right, A lot of friends right there.
Uh.
They put out good stuff consistently, so check it out and when it becomes available, I'll be sure to link it here. Again, c J. Man was a ton of fun.
Yeah, man, thank you everyone at home.
Keep your head up. I can't last forever. Good night.