The Zebra Murders Terrorize the Nation w/ Thomas777: Ep. 476

Angels as not being purely schismatic. I mean, don't get me wrong. I think there was a spontaneous aspect to them developing this incredibly violent direct action tendency. But I think the rank and file leadership of ni knew what was going on, and they exploited that to tactical effect or attempted, do you know. And there's too much People have a tendency to suggest that there's not any sort of sophistication the Black revolutionary activity, and that's not true

because there is, okay, at least within bounded parameters. And it became clear, I believe, reading between the lines, or it becomes clear the core of what became the Death Angels. There were men who'd done time together in San Quentin and that Cadres referred to as the San Quentin Mosque, and that wasn't accidental, you know. And uh, the loft of the Black Self Help moving company where the Death

Angels held their meetings, which became their headquarters. There were a number of U n O Y ministers who would address their cadre meetings who were not from that San Quentin milew and who didn't have criminal background, you know,

and that wasn't accidental, you know. Like I said, I I kind of look at this in sort of as as a rough analogy, sort of like the relationship with the shankle butchers to the rank and file UVF very very much the use of serial murder as a as a as a tension strategy and as a terroristic method, you know, and there was a there, there was a wider strategic objective of evental y than than simply to lash out and kill white people. There was a method

to that. And you've also got to think about what was going on in the era, you know, and the San Francisco was kind of up for grabs politically, unlike Los Angeles, you know, and that's why that's why California took center stage so much in the sixties and seventies,

you know that it really was there. There was a massive influx of capital, There's a huge movement of people, you know, after the Second World war there, media infrastructure was being built up there exponentially, which was changing everything. So NY had a sense that they could capture San Francisco. You know, it turned it into a black run city, and uh that kind of become the new mecca in lieu of Chicago, because Chicago is always a black stronghold.

But uh, Chicago's very locked down and Chicago was very much an old school city, you know. So I mean black black power base. They're well robust. It's always going to be limited within certain parameters, especially back then, you know. So the the idea was that these high incident felons from San Quentin who are habituated to racial violence, because San Quentin back then was like a powder kid, you know, the Aryan Brotherhood came out of San Quentin, and I

mean the Arian brother today. I've never been to the penitentiary, thank god. The comrades you have, especially dudes on time on the West Coast. The way they've explained it to me is that the Arian Brotherhood now is is a is just a gang bang and they sling dope. But back then they formed as a as a defensive cadre because when the California system was integrated by force, you know, white for the minority, and they were getting whacked on site.

So the Arian Brotherhood took the strongest white cons and if you wanted to get branded, you you basically had to waste a black person. You know. It was blood and blood out. Okay. So these black guys in who'd been doing time there, they were used to this kind of three way race war with the Spanish and with the whites, you know, so presumably that you know, they were sort of perfect for forming the core of a of a race war cadre on the street. You know.

So you've got to put yourself in the epoch as to understanding the tactical mindset of these people, you know, and that's important, you know, like we've talked about before, despite the sort of narrative of the contrary and media, the California is not this liberal state on the street where everybody mixes freely. I lementitary Caagua, which is known for you know, segregation and things. And I find there to be a palpable tension in California between the races.

You know that it's it was very much ground zero for these things. And like I said, also it was it was summed up for grabs. What unraveled with the

zebra killings. I'm not being flipping about this, but one of the things that undermined and ultimately did in this sort of intended terroristic model of political action, a lot of these guys were there were just psychos, or they were in it because they were killed freaks, or they were finding ways to profit, you know, basically by murdering and robbing people and then telling the higher ups that

you know, it was these people were fair targets. And to be clear too, it was a big prohibition that death. Angel's rape was absolutely prohibited, as was theft, you know, under presumably under pain of execution. But these guys started doing things, you know, they started uh spontaneously, is for raping women. They started whacking people who weren't even white and then robbing them and saying like, oh, it's distance.

I thought he was a white man, you know. And we'll get into that, but you know, and I there there is an internal logic too, if you're trying to form a direct action cadre of of of looking to prisoners, you know, because there are people behind the wall who don't belong there, and they're are political reasons, you know, like the area nations used to do that. Obviously they'd exclude you know, anybody who was doing that for sex

offenses was obviously categorically precluded. But the you know that that that's a dangerous proposition in a lot of ways because a lot of people are in prison you know, actually do belong there. I mean, like I I don't, I don't think kind of tentiaries aren't a good solution

to these things. But the point is a lot of these people actually are with the period be and you know, the in conditions of peace or I mean in additions short of war, this becomes a problem, you know, whether they're nations ran into that, the loyalists like the uv F and the u d A ran into that sort of the provos on the Fanian side, particularly the Irish National Liberation Army and the i p O like that was real problem for them because they were they were

feared on the Belfast Street, but they also were a bunch of a bunch of kill freak bandits, you know, and that that's you know, but what else you know, again, in conditions other than warfare, what what is your litmus test? And what how do you evaluate somebody's performance and then in those capacities, you know, you're you're limited in how you can and how you can code for those things. So, you know, I think that that was part of it.

And also there's certain uh, there's there, you know, and being totally objective, I don't I don't think reasonable people would suggest otherwise when I say there's certain pathologies in in the black community, especially up north, that that lends itself to discipline problems. To be delicate about it, you know, and the mentioned material I think was not the best you know, uh and uh balls in the absence of brains,

door simplify it always leads to bad outcomes. But bringing it back, uh, I think we I think we concluded last time sort of getting into the timeline of because there was two phases of the zebra killings from autumn to from October to December seventy three, and then they they jumped off again in January to about March is seventy four. But the first zebra killing, the first attributed to the Death Angels as part of this campaign. It

was on October twentieth, nineteen seventy three. It was an attack on a married couple Richard and Keita hag h Ague like the Hague. They lived on Chestnut Street in the three hundred block, which was a you know, a prosperous area. You know. Richard and Keita were on after dinner walk through their neighborhood. Richard Haig was thirty. He was some kind of engineering type who was working out of a San Francisco office of a of a Utah

mining concern. And his wife was a journalist. You know, they were I think he was thirty and she was twenty seven or twenty eight, you know, uh, very solid

citizen types. You know. They're walking on Chestnut Street literally, you know, a couple of blocks from their home, and uh they get accosted by uh three black men, two on one side of the sidewalk, a third on the other side, and then their wheel man who was driving a panel van, which uh they uh that that was employed in a lot of these a lot of these murders.

Minutes later they were tied up and restrained with twine and uh, you know, the subjected to a brutal pistol whipping and beating. They ended up driving to this rail yard near the Central Basin. Richard and Keta were unloaded. Keito was uh chopped with a machete on the neck so severely that she was almost decapitated, and blessedly she apparently she died almost instantly. Richard was beaten and hacked with the machete, the same machete, but miraculously he survived.

Discovered later, uh, there were polaroids taken of the victims where the faces of uh their attackers were clearly visible. And obviously this uh, this didn't make sense at versus the police, but then they realized what it, you know, was revealed what the death Angels were. Obviously they were doing what they had to do to get to get

credit for the for the bodies they dropped. And Larry Craig Green he's the one who killed Keita Haig, and he was known for being a stone called killer who had just a pathological hatred of white people, you know. And when apparently on the ride to the to the murder site, he'd say it like the woman's mind because I'm getting my wings his rappi Uh. Jesse Lee Cooks he'd tried to get credit for the murder Richard to Haig.

When it became clear that Haig survived, Cooks kind of became he he kind of begain viewed as a weak link by his comrades and the death of angels, you know who didn't deliver. It's like, okay, first of all, you know, it's it's like, you know, it's like the rest of your rap. He's a killed women or children, you know, showing that they they got no fucking remorse. It's like you attacked a man. He didn't even do the job correct. And Cookes was kind of a loose canon. Anyway,

he later caught it. He later caught charges because he'd spontaneously just raped this woman named Karen Linder and uh, like saying all kinds of crazy stuff to were like he assaulted her and like held her hostage for a couple of hours, like typical like shit bag rapo stuff, and then uh before he let her go, I mean, thank god, even kill her. But he inexplicitly let her go, and apparently he said to her like, yeah, you know, I know that, like I forced myself on you, but

you know we had a really good time. Like I think maybe I'll call you and we can go out sometime, you know, like just a total I mean, nothing funny about this, but you know he was he was a weak link. And uh after he raped for that woman, he'd uh he'd blasted uh a cod pulling into the college parking lot, uh, like the UFC Extension campus. I think I'll get into the specifics in a minute, assuming

I took notes on it. But he like blasted her and broad daylight get picked up immediately, and then you know, he he gets made for coming this rape as well. So I mean, he he was a perfect example of, you know, uh, the kind of weak links that develop when you know, you build a cadre out of people you know from the prison system. But but this, this

this wasn't just a one off like the death Angels. Ultimately, dozens of photographs and murder victims were discovered, you know, and uh like uh like, like I said, this is downplayed, but in the seminal book on the subject by a guy named Clark, the books just called zebra, you know it. Uh there there is reason to believe there were as many as seventy or eighty victims statewide, if not as many as one hundred and thirty, which is pretty horrifying.

But ultimately, uh, Richard Haig, uh he uh, he was able to make his way back to the back to the road, and ultimately a couple, John Badenberg and his wife Beverly, they're driving westbound on twenty fifth Street, and uh, they found Haig staring on the street, you know, covering blood with the you know, his neck mutilated. It was miraculous that he survived, and you know what, he would have became clear that he hadn't been robbed or anything.

And when he relayed, he didn't suffer any substantial brain damage,

which is also miraculous. When he relayed what his attackers were saying to each other, the police started to develop a picture of what what had happened, and you know this, This is sort of when the local government, city government went into you know, full censorious mode, fearing as they did, that this would result in a general race wars, as was the intention of the Death Angels and the NI and one of the ways that this CODR was able to carry on the way that it did, and also

anecdotally suggesting that there was deeper coordination and collusion between the above board above Ground n Y and the Death Angels. After these murders were carried out, including the murder of Keta Haig, there was another number of there's a number of above Ground NY congregants who lived in the Hunter's Point section of the bay, including uh, this one woman that uh one of the Death Angels is briefly married do and uh they'd apparently use their house as something

of a safe house. And after the after the attacks

on Richard and Keita Hag, they sped over there. You know, the men showered and washed off, burned their clothes, and uh, you know, presumably presumably these civilian contacts, I don't know, Y weren't availed two details about about these homicides, but you know, they also was clear that they were not to ask questions you know, fairly sophisticated stuff, you know, and this becomes even more sort of clear what the organizational mechanism was here, you know, decades before the original

NY presence in in the Bay Area, it was mostly guys from Texas. Interestingly where and down in Texas. They really they were basically left alone. They weren't harassed by the authorities because whatever tensions that are in Texas, people who Texas is fairly tolerant of people who have unusual religious ideas, so long as they're not you know, it's as long as they're not not not disturbing others.

very ghetto wise capacity. He was a non starter. So a lot of these initially these that NI sent these

they called them the young Turks. They sent these guys to the Bay area, you know, who set up the first NI mosque there and who then many of whom became sort of the conduit between NI leadership and the Death Angels, one of whom was one of whom was uh and his is basically criminal tendencies that he he couldn't see too a shoe, you know, led to the police tying together would have otherwise been an apparently unrelated uh set of discreet incidents. But so that shows as

how cold these guys were too. Larry Green, who when uh, he he was the guy who he was one of the he was one of the four who was UH president when the Haiggs were hacked and when when Keita Haig was killed, she had uh some sort of ornate ring on it was a gold ring with that thing an emerald or a sapphire embedded in it, and uh one of the Death Angels apparently gave it to his fiance, you know, uh, just as like a gift, you know, which is really fucking ghoulish, you know, not not just

taking a trophy, but uh from a murder victim, then you know, giving it to your girlfriend. I don't know that that really stuck out to me. But uh, the uh, the first sort of break, as it were, the first indication that there was some sort of organizational pattern to what was underway. October thirtieth was ten days ninety seventy three. It was ten days after the the the attack on

the Higgs. The Oricia, California Extension campus. It was only a block apparently from where Jesse League Cooks lived, you know, and he's the guy who botched the murder of Richard Haig and thus didn't get his wings. So he developed that bright idea that you know, there's this there's this large double gate that would allow students in and out of the campus, you know, when they presented an ID

or whatever. So cook says he'd walk by. You know, he decided he could he could blast a white person, you know, and when they were stopped at the gate and then uh, you know, make it make a quick getaway. But of course, uh, you know, the the Extension campus was only they didn't have a night program, so you'd be doing this in in in light a day, which is exactly what he did. A lady named Francis Rose, you know, who was an older student. I think she

was about thirty. You know, she was just going about her life's business, you know, and as she's parked at the entrance the Extension Campus parking lot, you know, Cooks ran up and shot her in the face four times, and me almost immediately, uh, you know, an APB goes out, you know for a black man like you know, five nine or whatever in an army jacket. Cooks had had ditched his army jacket and he'd thrown the piece somewhere,

I think in a dumpster. But as he's uh making his way back to his back to the apartment, trying to look uh unassuming, to their credit, a couple of

police got like a hunch about him. And sometimes police hunches are more than just a fishing expedition, you know, and they they picked him up, and uh, you know, eventually, uh we're able to piece together the fact that you know, he was the shooter, and ultimately again he got he got id'ed as uh the man who attacked uh Karen uh Linder, and they were able to ultimately they were able to ultimately piece together what was underway based upon

a pattern of association. And then you know, a state's evidence was ultimately forthcoming from uh Anthony Harre, who got full immunity and claimed that despite being present for multiple murders, he never pulled the trigger cut anybody's throat, which I

don't believe. But you know, California became notorious during this period, not just for what was viewed as affording excessive protections to criminal defend and under auspices of Fourth Amendment privacy and the sanctity they were in, but also cutting deals with people who had, you know, really horrible culpability, and that was viewed as a gross injustice. And that's that's where a lot of these movies like The Star Chamber

and Death Wish and stuff come from. And I don't want to go into some sort of polemical rant, but I know you still find like maggots types like drop this kind of NASA today, like we're gonna get tough on crime, like basically since the since the Burger Court era. You're like completely fucked. You'll end up in court like on a on a felony charge. But uh, there's this own narrative of a you know, the course being soft

on on unforceable felonies. They came out of this era, And of course Hankley, you know who shot Reagan, uh him prevailing on an insanity defense really kind of fed the flames of that narrative. And of course now it's literally impossible to prevail on an insanity defense. And to be clear, if you're prevailing an insanity defense, you're you're basically you're basically looking not like life of up parole in a mental hospital. I mean, I that that doesn't

sound fun to me. I mean, in fact, you California now, I I'm trying to think the name the institution a taskadero, a Taskadero hospital. You know how in California there, if you're if you're a determined to be a mentally disordered sex defender, even after you serve your custodial sentence, you'll be placed in a testcadaro basically indefinitely unless or until you can demonstrate to you know, a medical examiner that

you're you're no longer a danger. So you're it's basically the fact a life's sentence in many cases, you know it's not. I'm not saying you just feel bad for these people, but I do push back when people claim, oh, an insanity defense, you can just say you're crazy. It's like, look, man, you do not want to be in a state mental hospital, but criminally insane, you really don't. I've seen in Illinois, our version of that is is Elgin. It's not it's

not reserved for sex offenders. It's for criminally insane people. And uh, I'm not gonna say it's worse in Cook County jail, because nowhere's worse to come County jail. But it's like imagine Cook County jail, but also like guys shuffling around like like openly masturbating and stuff. I mean, that's not really a place want to spend, uh, you want to spend decades. But moving on what uh and something?

Anthony Harris, who you know again, he ultimately he ultimately turned state seven and it's and he was one of the he was one of the first. He was one of the first witnesses just to be put in witness protection as we know it now you know, which Uh, it became a Department of Justice imperative and a and a well funded program. And I'm and this obviously was at the the state level, but that that's an interesting sort of a bit of triviute to this case. But

one of the things that Harris uh testified to. He said, at his first meeting in uh the loft, or one of his first meetings at the loft at the at the moving company, you know, it was uh. He said that uh An n Oy liaison was there and he straight up asked him, you know, would you he says, not tell me you would you be would it be easier for you to personally kill a white child or a white woman? Harris said, He replied, I don't know.

He was asked, then you know, a white woman or a white man, and again he said I don't know. He said that this uh he said that the n OI minister then said to him, well, I shall tell you, brother, it takes a far better man to kill a child than a woman, quote, and a better man to kill a woman than a man. And he says, anytime you think of he says, anytime you hesitate, it's to murder

a white person. He said, think about the fact that you know, the white man used to cut black babies out of their mother's wombs and feed them to their livestock, you know, very obviously trying to stir up this kind of fervor in the minds of these guys, virtually all of whom again had been radicalized in San Quentin, and sort of provide them with a, you know, a rationale for extreme violence, and also provide them with a sort of moral alibi that would, you know, to carry through

with things that they would otherwise find morally and physiologically revolting. You know, I mean, even even men with a diminished conscience, you know, would tend to bulk at the murder of a woman or a child. And that's why this case

is so disturbing, and most significantly what Harris said. He said, at the end of the evening, he was shown, uh, snapshots, Polaroid snapshots, you know, on polaroid cameras were new then, at least the ones available in the public for the youngsters on deck who don't know you'd ste'd snap a polaroid picture and immediately then negative would pop out, and in those days you have to tear the remove the negative from the positive, and then you'd be left with, like,

you know, a snapshot you just took. Like later by the eighties and early nineties, just just like one piece photo popped out and it would take a minute to develop and you'd shake it because it came out wet. But uh, there was dozens of polaroid snapshots of what were appeared to be at least actual executions of of white victims. And Harris said there were so many that he couldn't count them at a glance. He said there

were He said there were dozens of them. And he was told by this UH minister liaison that it's its best decapitate your victims, because he said, then there's no doubt that you know, you're entitled to credit for a for a kill. Now, a man who's essential to the death Angels was a guy named J. C. Simon. He was convicted of of multiple murders and and and died

a while doing live without parole. But Simon, he was one of the guys from Houston who became one of the young Turks and he was instrumental in sort of radicalizing this cadre. And he was assigned to Harris when Harris got out of prison. And you know, to be clear, when Harris got out of prison, he reports to his halfway house, which to this day is you know, pro

lice can't live wherever they want. And within an hour of arriving at this halfway house, Harris said he got visited by an NY member who told him, look, we've got an above board job for you which run by our people. That's how we ended up at the self out moving company, because that's the job he was assigned to. And the NI was a registered you know, they registered the IRS as a religious organization, So there's limitations to what the state could do in terms of objecting to

a pro lea being employed there. They can't discriminate cupaciously against some religious institutions but not others. So in other words, if if people go work for you know, a Salvation Army run company, you'd also have to let them work for the NY. You know, this was you know again, this speaks with a certain sophistication tactically of what of what these people were up on. You know that I think a lot of people, along with their kind of

conceptual biases, don't really acknowledged. But the problem with J. C. Simon is that he started uh playing very fast and loose with with his conduct on the street, you know, trying to enrich himself, you know, became very much a gangster first and a partisan second. I'll get one to what I mean by that in a moment. But Simon explained to Harris this way what the mission of the Young Turks was. You know, he said, San Francisco has become the first n O Y run city in the country,

not just black run, but n O I run. You know, they had a master plan for the gradual acquisition of various businesses and you know, in a in at least the nominally in above board way. But there there'd have to be an attrition model imposed to get the whites and the ethnics out, you know, and that's where the Death Angels came in, in part because incident to the incident to the the race war and the ethnic cleansing

of the whites. You know, if you can turn San Francisco into a into a into a Belfast, a race war version of Belfast, you know, not only uh, not only can you cleanse your racial enemy, but you know, again, like the property values that were nothing in a war zone, you know you can you can, you can grab up whatever you want and then when the dust settles, you know, you you own the capital base of the city, which you can then rebuild because there's you know, nobody but

your own people, Uh, not just populating in the city center, but you know, on on the city council and controlling the the mayor's office. And you know, then the people you got to approach if if you want to be availed to, you know, any kind of license or anything. You know. So, I mean, it's it's good. It was gonna take a decade or two decades to realize, but it was a sound plan, you know. I mean, I

mean sound in the bounty rationality of it. I'm not saying it sound for wilding blacks to attack us, obviously, but Uh, the problem with Simon was one of the things that Harris uh Tern state seven and is on him four was the murder of a guy named Salim Ericott. Salim Ericott was a Jordanian immigrant and he ran a

grocery store on Larkin Street. And uh, Simon had gone in there just sort of on a lark some weeks back to buy an apple and a coffee, and uh, it was early in the morning, so he noticed that Ericot was counting up the till before he put it in the safe, and uh, there was an extraordinarily large amount of money there. So Simon got the idea that he was gonna rob Ericot and he takes Anthony with

he takes Harris with him, and he puts it to him. Uh. He picks up Harris at the halfway house and he says, uh, hey, you got a piece, and Harris says like, yeah, don't you have your own. He's like, well, I had to lend it out to somebody, so I need your peace and uh. Harris realizes the way this is going, but he also knows that Simon is a superior in the n Y and he also knows that these guys are

stone called killers, so he hands over his weapon. Simon goes to uh Ericot's grocery store and he walks in and Ericot's counting the till like he was the other week. But then Ericott settles his death for it because he says to Simon, he's like, oh, do you want your apple? Because he remembered him, you know. And uh so eric Coot uh draws down on him, you know, takes him in the bag and says, I gotta tie you up, you know, say you don't try and follow me. Ericott

h cooperates. Simon then shoots him in the head, killing him instantly. Robs the till, you know, it tells Harris, uh, you know, drive drive, you know, and then we got to get rid of your piece. So Harris is like, why why why did you do that guy? So Simon's like, oh, well he was he was a white man, you know.

So we're we're you know, we were we were carrying on the work and the Death Angels and uh so then when Harris says like, well, what about the what what what about the the till that you just rob, He's like, oh, that's that's for our war chest, you know, and uh, don't you're not to speak of this, you know, Souse. It was clear what was going on here, you know,

with a lot of this stuff. And that's why, uh it took a minute to connect uh the Aracott murder as well, because it's you know, why are uh why are why why some why some Arab immigrant getting whacked? But it became you know, like I said, it wasn't

just uh, it wasn't just a nominal rationale. I mean, race war was the raisin debt for these people, and they had a they had a genocidal ascility to whites, but they also anybody, I mean, and it was it was open to season anybody who wasn't black, you know, So I'm getting at And there's always uh, when uh, when it becomes permissible to murder people and it becomes normalized, you're there, there's always gonna be people who who just employ it for the most banal of reasons, literally to

put you know, money in their pocket. I uh. I tried to rather drive that point home to people who like like these uh boogie types who watch so much TV and they think like the Mafia is awesome or something. It's like and more other than not, it's it's guys just like whacking people for like a fucking relatively paltry paid eight man Like you know, you shouldn't. You shouldn't glorify that kind of thing. I you know what I mean, wrong and like outlook coded like first laps and all is.

But there's there's nothing cool about murdering human beings for money. You know that there's reasons to kill people, like, don't get me wrong, like that's not one of them. But you know, Harris, if you believe uh he's a credible witness, and I think he basically was, you know, it's clear that this is one of the things that it isn't a fact. He was obviously shook by, you know, the the idea of murdering women and kids. You know, he realized that this was not really a job in any

meaningful sense. And uh, according to him, that was when uh he really had the first thoughts of turning the state's evidence against UH, who there tofore had been you know, his comrades. And he uh, he claimed that there was a a lot of people who were situated harristed, you know, within the black middle class of San Francisco, who had more than an inkling of what was underway. Like when when Harris first got his job on parole with uh

the self help moving company. You know, he said he was approached by this guy he'd been a boxer but apparently was employed, uh as a high school pe teacher, and he was like an ny guy with some standing, and so he said, he bonded with this guy over you know, boxing. He's like, yeah, I know you're in the martial arts and stuff. We should work out sometime.

So Harris said, he starts working out with this guy, and uh, you know he uh he asked him where he lived, and when Harro's noticed that he lived in a prenominantly white hood. You know. Harris is like, what's up with that? And he's like, oh, well, you know, he's like, uh, the ny is my religion, but it's not my politics.

If anything, it made him look worse, not better. And it provides a context to some of this stuff I think, you know, And like I said, you've got to understand the epoch, and you got to understand the way California is, Like I don't. And this isn't just me like sticking up from my local. Like there's black people who do like really savage, awful shit here and I got no

illusion about that. But something like that, even in the sixties and seventies, like wouldn't have happened here, you know, but people were just on a race war footing then, and not just in California. But I'm saying like it reached a sort of depraved zenith there, you know, And that's one of the reasons why, uh, I think, uh, that's one of the reasons why this kind of a radicalism within the establishment, you know, like at Berkeley and stuff.

That that's why that became so normalized, you know, because it at the end of the day, the estelishman has to take its cues from the body politic otherwise there is not gonna be a lingua franca in conceptual terms. I mean, that's that's always true, and that's one of the reasons why, you know, and again I don't want to tangentialize this. That's the reasons why the current administration is having real problems now because they they've abandoned that tendency.

But you know, I so this if this stuff seems totally like like we've got to take away from this whole situation, it doesn't tell you generally about the state of UH race relations at the time, and it doesn't even really tell you like what the tenor was of of UH. You know, the the racial divide between white and black, even under conditions of general hostility, it was a sort of self contained thing, you know, and that uh,

that that's important to account for. But at the same time too, it is illustrative people who think race war can't happen here. It absolutely can and it has. You know, America is big enough, and localism reigns, and often this is becoming more pronounced that you can't speak of one single circumstance on the ground or whites and blacks are gonna smash together under a conditions of a you know, periodic or intermittent hostility resulting in in in in warfare.

But you know it, uh, it does need to be contextualized, you know. And I don't uh, I don't. I don't think that you know, the like in my lifetime, the last time relations between whites and blacks are really really bad was the early nineties and when I was like a teenager and a young person. And thankfully that's not the way things are now. That doesn't mean it can't

that can't emerge. And but the kind of like diet would be different, you know, like I uh, it's more complicated now owing to the owing to the number of people from the global South who like flooded our borders and just like other stuff, you know. And uh I uh I maintain you know, like why like like heritage Americans and black folks. I don't ever think we're gonna have like a warm and fuzzy relationship like in in at scale. But uh, you know, we've lived among each

other for five hundred years. It's the norm. And the norm isn't for us to be like engaged in some ongoing race war, you know, so I and left to their own devices, us and blacks are fine. I mean, like I you know it, and the I mean the problem these problems are are ultimately approximately derivative from the social engineering regime. It's you know, but I mean the race relations are complicated, man, you know, like uh we did fight of kind of ongoing race war against the

planes Indianas that never stopped. But there was also there's also like this mutual respect there and odd sort of cultural exchanges and things. But yeah, we can, uh we keep going with this subject matter if you want to get into the trial of the for defendants who ultimately went down for it, or we can pivot to a different subject matter depends what you and the subs want to do.

I lent it to a friend of mine and it's it's one of the funniest reactions I've ever gotten to lending someone a book, which is I he came over to my house a day or two after I lent it to him. He's like, man, this is insane. I can't believe this is real. I'm like, yeah, I know, especially because it's all first hand accounts. But then again, right, you have the war in the Pacific, which had sort of similar a similar tone to it, Right, it was

very much this kind Yeah, exactly right. You start to see a you know, kind of those sort of you know, motifs coming back up again. But the reason I want to keep going with the trial, and you know, I think this is important while we're mentioning this is that you know, both the trial and investigation were heavily stage managed because everyone everyone was aware of the fact that

this could be a spark to provoke wider tensions. So obviously, you know, during the investigation, before the you know, the defendants had been caught, there was a huge negative reaction to you know, stopping frisk policies. Very interesting, you know, series of reactions to this, even from within the kind of like you know, black activist class. If you're up for it, Thomas, I'd love to do another episode. I this stuff is fascinating.

I just didn't want to make any I don't want to be presumptuous on our topical orientation.

I set up a Twitter account. I don't know if I'm gonna fuck with it or not. But because at some point Sue in the book is gonna drop, you would finally use it to like plug the book I was thinking about. But I'll shout that out later when I decide what I want to do with it. But yeah, you can find my website. Yeah, you can find me on a substack was the best place, you know. You can find me on YouTube, and yeah, thanks again for hosting me.

everyone at home, keep your head up. Good night,