The West Memphis Three at Trial w/ Thomas777: The J. Burden Show Ep. 420

Memphis three. Really the core of their narrative. The defense's case in chief, in a rebuttal if you will, is that Jesse mus Kelly's mentally disabled and he was coerced into confess by the police who were depriving him of counsel and frightening him and providing him essentially with testimony they expected him to parrot in order to incriminate himself. Well, there's a few things to understand about cours confessions. They

absolutely do happen, but there's a pattern that develops there. Generally, they happen in the absence of circumstantial or direct evidence. That wasn't the case here, And almost without exception, the defendant immediately begins retracting his statement and insisting that he was coerced. Miss Kelly confessed repeatedly on record. He confessed to his attorneys, He confessed to the sheriff's deputies escorting to prison after it was convicted. He confessed to acquaintances,

he confessed to cellmates. You know, you can't get away from you can't get around this, you know, And I think it's a matter of people watch the documentary The Brolinger in a Sinovsky documentary, they take that at face value, and they don't dig into the trial record, and they don't dig into the the offers a proof. They just say, oh, if he confessed repeatedly, he was being coerced. No, we're talking about discreete occurrences months apart under totally different conditions.

And on top of that, and I'm gonna this is the caveat. There's some really disturbing testimony I'm gonna get into that's disgusting, that deals with the sensual abuse and murder of children. If that anything bothers you, I'm gonna I'm gonna we're dak language that I don't embarrass myself for anybody else, But it's a pretty horrible subject matter. To just be aware that you may want to skip over this or or tune out if if that upsets you. I also wanted to know, just as for foundational purposes.

The overarching narrative of West Memphis three innocence advocates is that marrying in West Memphis was this town of religious this community religious fundamentalists who were bigoted Holy rollers, who were terrified of this phantasm of occultism, and they persecuted these teenage boys we've established that. Well, I can't remember some data, and to Gary Mees's credit, he he corralled this.

The county where Maryon and West Memphis are located is Crittenden County, and as of nineteen ninety, the percentage of the population of Crittenden County that declared an affiliation with a religious congregation was well blown the national average. The statistical profile was forty one point seven percent compared to a national average of fifty point two percent. This was also a community that was sustained by the interstate So yes, it was poor, it was southern. It was not what

you'd call a cosmopolitan have a culture. But in interstate towns like this, gambling's big, prostitution's big, drugs are big. You got all kinds of transient people, and religion actually isn't a big thing there. It's again below the national average. Now America is so large the meaning of those averages can be diluted. But when we're talking about it discrete allegation that this community was characterized by some sort of

extreme religiosity that was well outside the norm. That's now that's a confabulation, just outright, you know, And I made the point before we went live, A lot was made to the fact that the state and establishing foundation for motive. Evidence of motive plan design is admissible because it's relevant. The state never needs to prove motive as an element

of the offense, but obviously it's factually relevant. You know. Again, there were the trappings of occult belief structures surrounding this crime scene, the testimony of people who knew echoes and who heard his illusions and in some cases are right confessions to the crimes he identified as an occultist, and the police and the state's attorney's office proffered experts on occult crime. And this was held out in the Paradise Lost movie. As see this police department was so out

of it and crazy they had an occult crime staff. Well, so did Chicago PD, so did the NYPD, so did LAPD. These days, whether it's one officer or one hundred officer. As a sign of that detail, they'd refer to it as as security threat group investigations that would entail everything from gangs to non state actors and political terrorist groups to cult organizations that are involved in criminal or raggeteering activity.

It's a broad pnumber of of behaviors and structures. It's not merely you know, satanic crime or something an ad order, but the other as it may. The most significant confessions mss kelly confessions. He confessed on February fourth, nineteen ninety four. This was after his arrest. Okay, not not even addressing his custodial arrest. I'll accept that that's not a legitimate confession. I don't believe that to be the case. I think it satisfies all the criteria of due process. But making

that concession the defense, let's redact that entirely. So we've got three confessions here. We've got a confession on February fourth, nineteen ninety four. We've got a confession on February eighth, nineteen ninety four. We got a confession on February seventeenth, nineteen ninety four. Now, the February fourth confession came to light a Shero's deputy named John Moody. In transporting miss

Kelly post conviction. Immediately post conviction to the Arkansas Department of Corrections, he contacted Gary Gotchell, who was the homicide inspector of the West Memphis Police Department. Now this is relevant to miss Kelly was. These were Clay County Sheriff's deputies, not Crittenden County. Because miss Kelly's trial had been removed

from Crittenden County by defense motion. They asked for a change of venue, alleging that miss Kelly would be prejudiced in Critinin County, like the potential jury pool would be tainted against them, and they got that motion granted. So supposedly, again the state's trying to frame up miss Kelly, but they're granting defense motions to remove the trial, you know. And this was pre Internet, So these Clay County jurors they were, they were they prejudiced against him too, because

they're taken in by satanic panic. But that's relevant, it's material, it's not just a matter of trivia. So this Clay County Sheriff's deputy, and this was validated by a deputy James Lindsay, who was with this officer named of John Moody on the afternoon at February fourth. This is John Moody's testimony that he wrote to uh Giggell on the anting of February fourth, nineteen ninety four. Deputy James Lindsay and myself for transferring Jesse miss Kelly to Arkansas Department

of Corrections At Pine Bluff. Jesse was asked if there's anything he wanted to say. After being assured we could not use anything he said against him in court, he chose to talk. Jason advised he had received a call from Jason Baldwin. This is speaking on the date of the murders. May fifth, nineteen ninety three. Jesse advised he'd received a call from Jason Baldwin ask him if he wanted to go to West Memphis to quote get some girls. Jesse, Damien, and Jason met on a local road on May fifth.

Sometime in the evening, Jesse claimed that he'd been drinking Evan Williams whiskey. This becomes material that he was drinking Evan Williams, Jesse clan had been drinking Evan Williams whiskey, and that a Missus Hutchinson had bought him and Jason and Damien beer and whiskey. Jason and Damon were drinking beer. Jesse also stated that they had smoked two marijuana joints that afternoon. Jesse said that he had known Jason Baldwin since the sixth grade and did not know Damien that well,

but that Damien would drink human blood. Jesse stated that after all meeting on the road, the three boys walked to the woods and were sitting in the water. Three young boys were seen from a distance when Damien told Jesse and Jason to hide. Jesse said they were hiding behind bushy is when Damien grabbed Michael Moore, one of the young boys. The two other young boys started hitting Damien trying to help their friend, and this is what Jesse and Jason jumped out and helped Damien beat them.

Jesse advised he helped hold them and beat them, but had no part in raping or killing them. Jesse advised two of the boys were raped and that Jesse and Jason were taking turns beating the two boys. Jesse said the two boys were still alive at this time. Jesse said the boys were kept quiet by putting hands over their mouths, and that Jason and Damian had to use their shirts and that at times their face was pushed down into the ground. Used their shirts for It's not clear,

but he means to gag them, Jesse was asked. So the boys were kept under control while being raped and not tied yet, and he stated, quote, they were like puppies when he whoop a puppy and tell it to stay at will. Jesse did say that he had to catch Michael Moore, but did not say at what point. Jesse claims that third boy was never raped. Jesse said at one point that Jason one of the boys in a headlock, and he believes that Jason had sexually assaulted him.

At one point, Jesse said that Jason had a quote buck looking knife and had castrated the boy and quote thrown it into the weeds, meaning the knife. The boy was alive and tied. At this point, Jesse was surprised blood did not get out on him because blood was everywhere and he was only about to carlinth the way. Jesse said they threw the boy into the water and he was still spirming in the water, at which point

Jesse said he left. Jesse said he believed the other two boys were not conscious when he left, but they were not yet in the water. Jesse stated that Jason called him later and that's why he left. Jesse told Jason he could not stand to watch any longer. He claims the only other contact here with Jason and Damien. Subsequent were a couple of times at the skating rink, but they were mad at him. Jesse claims his lawyers asked him he was innocent, and Jesse said that he

had lied to them. Jesse said he had lied about the time of the crime and the bindings used on the victims to quote trick the police and see if they were lying. Jesse claims, who felt sorry for what has happened, and talks if he wants to testify against the other boys, they will not go free, and to help himself. Now, the claim I assume of defense proponents is that these deputies were lying. But again, this case was potentially a death penalty case, and Echols was sentenced

in death. So you've got to believe that these two deputy sheriffs, who presumably didn't even know Inspector Derry Gotchell until this trial underway, and even then, even at the time of writing this letter, they might not have even known him. They might have just known of him from a totally different county. They've got no connection to the case.

You've got to believe that they spontaneously decided to make up a story commit perjury framed jess he Mus Kelly and the other two defendants again in a death penalty case where potentially it'd be availed to not just losing their jobs and their pensions, potentially decades in prison just to frame these random kids. I mean, like that is that remotely credible? I I've never heard of anything like that.

I mean, people whose strange things. But that's I guess what the claim is is that Clay County, like Crittenden, was just full of holy roller, bigot, satanic panic victims who would stop at nothing to the frame innocent people for occult crime. But again I don't I don't find that credible. The second confession, I mean, this is the third total confession. This is the second confession that again I think is unimpeded, should be credible. It was February eight,

nineteen ninety four. This is when Jesse mss kelly was at Pine Bluff, which was his destination prison to serve his sentence or strike that I think it was a feeder prison, pending classification of his security level and things. Because in the case the diagnostic unit, that kind of mean that he was under psychiatric evaluation based on his behavior and conduct or something like suicidal ideation or because

it was a feeder institution pending classification. Dan Stidham, who was one of miss Kelly's defense attorneys, he was not a public defender. What a lot of jurisdiction to do is they assign the courtal assigned an attorney in private practice to represent indigent defendants on a case by days basis. And as a member of the bar in good standing, you know, it's it's part of your duty the community as a legal professional. Women officer of the court. And Stidham was. He was a younger guy, I think he

was about thirty, but he was well regarded. He he put on a zealous defense. So this is Stidham's interview with miss Kelly. Mind you, Stidham was his lawyer and his trial advocate, and he just sat through months of the proceedings with him. This is Stidham talking. It's this is three twenty pm February nineteen eighty four at the Pine Bluff, Arkansas Department of Correction, an diagnostic unit. Stidham, Okay, Jesse.

A few minutes ago, I asked you about making some statements to the officers on the transport of view from Pigo to Pine Bluff. You told me that you had told them some stuff. Is that correct, instead of speaking of what was just relayed in that letter. So apparently Jesse had relayed to him that he made these statements, further validating them, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. And at first he told me that you were just making it up.

They were aligned to them. And then you placed your hand on a Bible and told me that you were there when those boys got killed. Miss Kelly. Yes, Sir. What's the truth? Stidham? What's the truth? Jesse? I want to know the truth, Miss Kelly. The truth is me and Jason and Damien Dunnett. Stidham, you were there when the boys were killed, Miss Kelly, Yes, Sir Stidham. Now it's going to be very important for you to tell me why it was that he'd been maintaining you weren't

there all this time, Miss Kelly. I was scared, Stidham. What were you scared of? Miss Kelly? I always lied, and I hadn't ever put my hand on the Bible and swore nobody didn't tell me to do that. If they would have told me that at first, I would have done it. Nobody told me to put my hand

on the Bible. Stidham Okay, so basically been lying to me and mister Crow, mister Crow was co counsel for the defense in the past seven or so months, about not being there when you were in fact there, miss Kelly, Yes, sir, I mean I heard it alleged by one of these post conviction attorneys. Oh, miss Kelly's mentally retarded. So he he thought that Stidham was the police. Get the fuck out of here. That's that's that's ridiculous. I mean, first of all, again, as a matter of law, miss Kelly's

not retarded, and I don't think people understand. Look, miss Kelly was the son of a felon, and I've got no standing to put Shane on that. But this kid was in and out of the systems to his old family for his whole life. Guys who are in the system on phony charges, they know the law better than your like like your average like a hull rant lawyer

on the criminal side. This idea that miss Kelly had no understanding that this was his lawyer, that he that that this man was his advocate and not the police or a state's attorney, I mean that that's preposterous beyond a belief, basically saying that this man was barely sentient. You know. So not only did he validate his confession to the sheriff's deputies, he confessed again and the presence of Stidham at the diagnostic unit of the prison. I mean,

what what what was the coercion there? He told Stidham he wanted to confess to unburdened himself or whatever. I mean, as we go on, we'll see. I he was looking for a sentence production and so I'm going to concession if you're willing to testify against baldwin an echoes. But because it may you know, I you can't uh that the claim isn't that you know, while he was looking to he was looking for a favorable uh outcome at that point because he'd already been convicted. No, that doesn't

that doesn't hold up. But I mean that's not even what's being alleged. Just being alleged is that you know, he wasn't capable of understanding that he was in jeopardy. And you know, the the reality of what the role was of of his attorney, you know, cont for the police in the state's attorney. It's not it's not remotely credible. It's not a good faith argument. And then, uh, this becomes important as he goes on because he describes the

He describes to Stidham exactly what happened, and this becomes significant. Okay, as I'm skipping ahead a bit because there's semi irrelevant testimony, but miss Kelly testifies. You know what he related to the to the sheriff's deputies. You know, we went, we went to the woods, we were drinking. The boys walked up and here Stidham says, did they come up on their bicycles meaning the boys, or did they walk up miss Kelly, they came up on their bicycles and laid

their bikes down. Stidham? Can I stop right there? Did y'all smoke any dope that day? Miss Kelly? Jason, No, he don't, but to my knowledge he don't. And then it's unintelligible Stidham, So y'all didn't smoke any marijuana that day, just whiskey and beer. Where's the whiskey bottle, miss Kelly. Whiskey bottle busted? Stidham? You busted it, miss Kelly? Yeah, when did you do that miss Kelly going back when I was going back home after I seen what happened,

made me mad. This is significant because after this discussion, Stidham went to the location where miss Kelly says, when I was walking home after the murder, I was distraught. Well words, I was mad, so I smashed the bottle under this viaduct. Stidham went there with the assistant, say Sony Fogelman. They retrieved a piece that Evan Williams bottle and it had a fragment of the label on it.

They took that fragment to the liquor store. They mashed it with an Evan Williams bottle, and Fogeman actually stated off the record, he said he saw Stidham just kind of collapse at that point, like you get almost as a perceptible sigh, because he realized that, you know, Stidham was one of these guys who actually believed in his client's innocence. Now, it might not seem like much to somebody who's never defended a criminal case or to talk to these kinds of people. The devil is it is

truly in the details. Ms Kelly would not have made up this whole lurid a horrible, horrible story about this sexual assault, murdered children, but then told the truth about Oh, I smashed his whiskey bottle. No, he'spinding a picture of exactly what he did. They tortured and murdered those boys when he was walking home. That's exactly what he did. He smashes him in Williams bottle, and months later a

fragment was still there, you know. And like I said, I I know that people say, logically that doesn't follow, but it does. In terms of the criminal mind or the the psychopathic personality. It absolutely is material. I mean, it's material anyway because of his testimony, but you know what I mean, it's the devil's in the details. And I found that fascinating what Folgomen relayed that. I mean, obviously that wouldn't have been admissible in court, even where

miss Hilly already not not already convicted. But you know, and interestingly, you know, the remainder, like I said it, he reiterates the stitum, the nature of the injuries sustained by the victims, and it's it's more detailed, but it's ichdetical to the fact pattern that he relayed to the deputies in the letter, and again what I think it's highly material also that, if not as a matter of culpability, just in terms of the dynamic between the defendants, it

was Baldwin that escalated. Baldwin is the one who started cutting the kid, and miss Kelly claims he was shocked by this, which I believe is true. That doesn't mitigate his responsibility. But you know, Baldwin is the one who kind of remains in the proverbial shadows because Ecchos is such a a bizarre person who enjoys flying his freak flag over a pure aisle. Let me be. Miss Kelly is held out as this sort of Boo Radley figure,

like this retard who was brutalized by the police. Baldwin plays it off like he's just kind of this simple man, you know, with a mullet and a soft Southern drill and well, collegey, I've got convicted something I didn't do, all right, riddle need this Baldwen if you look at him as a skinny white boy. He goes to a southern maximum security penitentiary for a rape murder of children, and the dude thrives there. Not only does he not get shanked by some click who whacks Chomo's to keep

him off the yard. He doesn't check into PC, he doesn't get turned out, he doesn't get whacked. This dude is such a fucking savage that even with that Chomo jacket, he's good. Like, what kind of psycho was that guy? Like? Think about that? And Mees made that point, you know, and it's Eccles interestingly slipped up because he and Eckles wanted to cop the Alford plea when they got released. What a lot of people don't understand is that they

weren't exonerated and they didn't prevail on appeal. Essentially, eccles defense team they were able to corral enough expert testimony through these you know, these these these comparatively lavish funds they received to do so to probably win a new trial based on DNA evidence, which didn't alter the basis of the conviction as determined by the tri of fact. But under Arkansas a law, you're entitled to a hearing on DNA evidence the technology to analyze which was not

available at the time of trial. So the State of Arkansas, they basically took the perspective of you can probably get a new trial, and you might be able to win. We're going to cut our losses if your client will stipulate to the facts and plead no contest, which is when Alfred plea is. Baldwin didn't want to take it. He wanted to keep sitting in prison and see if he could when you know, on a post conviction, a

straight post conviction appeal. So he Echoes this big falling out and then Echos said on twenty twenty or whatever he said. You know, Jason love prison. He loved prison. Think about that. You know, the truth is not what people think it is. And a lot of instances were psychologically abnormal people are are the subject matter. But this is important. On top of being just an evil person and a devian, a total piece of shit, Echoes is at a park Baldwin and contrast is a very frightening individual,

even to his fellow cons you know. And incidentally, Baldo was the youngest of the defendants. He refused to say a word to the police from the time he was arrested until he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison without parole. He didn't say a word. I mean, that's most sixteen seventeen year olds aren't like even a hood dudes, even guys who've done third in the street, even dudes who've dropped bodies generally don't know that kind

of fortitude. But yeah, and interestingly, that's what Folbhaman said too. He said Baldwin never said a word. He just he just when we told him he's being a resident for murder, he said, I want to see a lawyer. That was it. Then he goes to prison that was not get turned out or killed again. He finds a home there, he thrives despite a trombo jacket. It's incredible, but that shows you what kind of monster the guy is. There's not even cool about out there. I want to make it clear,

like he's he's so abnormal and so deviant. He eats people and that's what kept him alive in the joint, not just alive, but apparently somewhat content. But moving on from my polemic, the third uh fashion again not the third total, but for our purposes, I believe he's the the strongest declarations by miss Kelly of his own palpability.

I'm just finding my place here. I'm sorry about this man. Yes, I think I alluded to before we went live, before I believe as a jury was being unpaneled because Eccles and h Baldwin there there they were tried together, which was an interesting tactical call, but it in their case that made sense. I the state was reading when the lines of state was hoping that Eccles in Baldwin would their respective counsels that uh attack the other and basically

would make the state's case in chief for them. That didn't really happen, but it didn't need to either, because Eccles took the stand and really hanged himself and bald was sort of invisible through the whole trial, which was a strategy, but he it basically echos got him convicted too. Okay, But on February seventeenth, nineteen ninety four, Miss Kelly confessed

yet again. President was Stidham's co counsel, Greg Crow, as well as a representative of the Clay County state's attorney named Joe Calvin, and a Crittenden County prosecutor Brent Davis. Because it was a Critton County case but had been removed to Clay County. You had both the offices represented, which is standard that there's a change of venue in a criminal case. There's just the way they do it, not just for jurisdictional reasoning, but it's sort of parlay

of a sort between jurisdictions and any event. Almost certainly what miss Kelly was trying to do here is gave some sort of leverage for a sentence reduction, come clean on the record with the state present two so that there was no doubt whatsoever about what his testimony was, and in exchange for a reduction from I think sixty years, he caught sixty or eighty years. You know he'd be

willing to testify against echoes in Baldwin. And to be clear too, even if there hadn't been the agreement that this testimony wouldn't be entered into the record if miss Kelly refused to testify, the confrontation clause or preclude the statement from me admitted you have a right to con front of your accuser, and a criminal case testimony this sort can't be introduced unless you have the right to

cross examine. To claren okay, and owing to unavailability and or refusal to testify, you know that's off the table. But undoubtedly this is what miss Kelly was going for so yet again, Okay, here we have two law enforcement representatives of the respective states, Toney's offices President, but you also have miss Kelly's defense team present. And again this didn't come from Stidham. Stidham objected to miss Kelly saying anything, as any defense counsel would. So this came from miss Kelly.

This guy who supposedly is this retard who can't even tell the difference between his own counsel and the police. He's devising in his mind ways to get immunity on an evidence proffer so that he can get his sentence reduced. As he's pretty sophisticated for a retard, doesn't it. I think. So that's the kind of stuff that conniving, felonious UH types of people do, exactly like miss Kelly is. So this is eight oh two pm, February seventeenth, nineteen ninety four.

This is UH Brad Davis, the UH Brent Davis, Crittin and prosecutor swearing Jesse miss Kelly in. He swears to all the truth but truth as Oh be God, Miss Kelly, Yes, sir, I do. This is Brent Calvin again. However, purpose of the record, I went to reflect number one that mister Stillman and myself have talked with Judge Burnett presiding Judge over Eccles and following his case, and advised him with

the proceedings. After discussing this with him, he approved or said that we could take a statement with mister miss Kelly's attorney's presence Stidham, over my objections, Calvin or mister Stidham's objections, moving on well, detesting the recording Stidham, Now we listen very careful what I tell you. Okay. I told you I had some new evidences. That correct, miss Kelly.

That's what you said, Stidham, That I told the new evidence may I planned filing a motion for a new trial and that the court may give you a new trial based on this evidence. That correct, miss Kelly, That's what you said. So Stidham's advising him. Look, I think we got basis for an appeal. Don't go through with this because you're gonna hang yourself. Even if this profher isn't admissible and it's you and of itself, we're gonna,

you know, move beyond this. So miss Kelly goes on to reiterate because the state asks him if he in fact attested to what was claimed by the officers who were transporting him on February fourth, nineteen ninety four, which is the subject of a letter to fold them in

mis Kelly acknowledges, yes, he said that. Then he acknowledges the validity of what he said days later to Stidham, invalidating that that was in fact a true aun A statement and that he did render that account and culpatory account of the murders, the rapes and murders to these deputy sheriffs. This confession is uh and somebody's even more detailed.

It's obvious that even though Stidham advised him not to do this, when it begin clear who's going to go through with it, Obviously Stidham wanted the factual record to be as clear as possible because of your client as hell bent on going through with this kind of gamble. It's imperative that courting out the sciet he's perjuring himself, because then all deals are off, regardless of what was

negotiated previously. And interestingly, he reiterates that the anecdote about the Evan Williams bottle, you know, and again I know that because I've heard people raise this, not just to me, but in the course of some of this footage, I've seen a fogman and others instead of himself talking about what he perceived of the significance of that admission. If people either don't understand why they're placing this emphasis on that or they dismiss it, it's it's relevant. Okay, It's

highly relevant. And that's why he keeps coming back to it. Okay. I all I can tell you is that it's it's a it's it's an aspect of the human mind when confronted with evidence of guilt, and even a you know, even even very disturbed people generally the guilty conscience. Okay. And it's it's a recurring pattern, you know. And his storials are made the same Clay County Stays turned to ask some picking up the narrative right where miss Kelly, Baldwin and Ecchos enter the woods, and he says, yeah,

we sat in the water. So Miss Kelly says, we sat there and started drinking. Though he heard some noise. Three old boys came up and we jumped them, you know. And then he goes through. He never waivers, you know, I beat the one boy at ecchoes, you know, grab the others. Then Baldwin intervened. Then the one boy ran I brought him back. I saw Echols molesting the kid, and and then I saw Baldwin's knife come out. He never he never waivers, and he never changes the facts.

He never changes which boy he assaulted or the order in which these horrors are perpetuated on the victims. And he's telling the truth. I don't see what's impeachable about his testimony, you know, And I, yeah, I don't know what else to say about it.

got to be enough. If she was very much behind that this effort to discredit the testimony of people who claimed that recovered memories or exposure to memory triggers had

allowed them to identify, you know, their assailants. He was very big in discrediting the entire repressed memory narrative, which had real world consequences because it was a big controversy at law whether that sort of testimony could be proffered, whether somebody could say, well, I didn't know, I didn't have knowledge of this, I didn't have knowledge of the person who assaulted me, or I didn't knowledge of the events.

There's a subject matter this trial. As long as a veil is subjected to a memory trigger by a diagnostician or a psychiatrist or some sort of therapist trained in the diagnostic criteria, and then subsequently I remembered these things that I'm attesting to today. She did a lot to

get that kind of testimony removed from courtroom practice. But he also he didn't frame it this way, obviously, but where children were involved in testifying, he basically made it so that there's a there's a presumption that the state actors of the state, whether they're police or states attorneys, are essentially always leading child witnesses, and that children, based upon a combination of social conditioning and immaturity of the conscious mind, they will always try and please adults and

always agree with authority figures, even in the absence of direct coercive persuasion. So that is what kind of put him on the map. In some ways, he's kind of the defense Council's answer to park beats, you know, like if you need in the aftermath of the John Hinckley trial, you know, Hinkley was really the last eye profile defendant to prevail on an insanity defense because people were outraged after that. How can you take a shot at the

President of United States and prevail on an insanity defense? Now, mind you, even if you're prevailing an insanity defense, that means you're spending probably the rest of your life in a high security psych ward, which is probably worse than prison. But I get it. I get the sentiment, and I think that there was a lot of pseuito science that went into Because insanity defense is an affirmative defense, the eventually burden shifts to the defense. Okay, this is essential

to understanding the process. But to bring it back to off She, one area of proported expertise that he also made a very outside impact in was the way in which coercion while under questioning and custody is understood. Off She went above and beyond what even most pro defense experts would say constitutes a coercive environment as regards criminal interrogations. Obviously everybody can imagine is something like John Bergen and the Red Squad, like what they used to do to people.

They literally taking someone hutter at and wiring up his private parts through a field telephone like he's a Viet Cong and and shocking him or whacking him with a phone book. Okay, I mean that's obvious corision, but obviously said, well, just the very fact of being in custody is coursive. So when you're dealing with people who have been availed to say class or racial oppression within the commonly accepted

paradigm of what the regime considers to be good sociology. Well, they're gonna have this instinctive fear that these police officer are gonna hurt them. Or you're talking about somebody like Jesse Missus Kelly, who is mean until he's subnormal and has an instinctive fear of the police. He's going to

do everything he can to please his interigators. And just the very fact of him being deprived of a representative advocate, even if he doesn't in vocus right to council, and even if he's of age and majority, that itself places him under course of pressure. Now obviously a lot of this is nonsense, you know, but that's the problem with courtroom practice, particularly in criminal law. Criminal law can become very complicated with its fact patterns, but it's not that

complicated in terms of the letter of the law. It's not you got the Bill of rights. You're basically, if you're defense counsel, you're doing everything you can to get evidence suppressed on pre trial motion because then you're essentially defanging the case in chi for the prosecution. But failing that, you're just arguing, especially in a horrible homicide case like this, you're basically just arguing facts and circumstances and mitigation, and

you're tagging the credibility of the state's witnesses. So experts have this outsized significance. And not only do they have an outside significance, but you're dealing with subject areas that are not based on empirical criteria. They're often based on pseudoscience or speculation. We even if they're valid, they're based on a witness saying. I'm an expert because over so many decades, I've interviewed so many criminal personalities or psychotics

or subnormal people accused of crimes like Jesimus Kelly. And based on that experience and based on my understanding of the criteria that break down the psychic defenses of somebody under interrogation, this constitutes coercion. According to the spirit of the Fourth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment, as well as evolving understand evolving standards of ethics and decency. You know, it's bullshit.

even administer the polygraph test. And during that conversation, this son, I think he was seven at the time, says that the boys who were killed, who he was, you know, allegedly friends with, were killed by Spanish speaking Satanists. So of course, you know, the police pounce on this.

She said everything was, you know, completely made up. She also makes some kind of outrageous claims about the police that she says that the police were, you know, using the suspects as human dartboards, uh, and that she was similarly intimidated. This particular character is often featured in discussions of how this case has been you know, quote unquote debunked. So I'm curious what do you make of that detail.

she was a single mother, barely functional person. She lived at the Highland Trailer Park and Miss Kelly she'd buy him. I think they were probably, I mean, she was. She was this lady in her thirties, but she'd earlate twenties or around thirty. But she'd hang around with teenagers. And you can put two of it together. Obviously, Miss Kelly and some of their boys were, you know, messing around with her, and she used to baby Miss Kelly used to babysit her kid sometimes and she'd buy him wicker

and stuff. Okay, when she was being interrogated by the police or when she was checking in bas you know, incident to her pre trial probation or whatever. There is such a thing, particularly in smaller jurisdictions, but not exclusively, and especially people who are in the drug court program or who are in some phase of evaluation for substance abuvious enter being charged. But yeah, her her son who

it seems like a very sad story. He obviously had all kinds of problems and you know, owing to his circumstances,

you're only about seven years old. He suddenly pipes up saying he knows what happened to his three friends and saying, well, there's this there's this playhouse or the shed in the woods where you know, people engage in these bizarre rituals, and uh, he went under this crazy story about Spanish speaking men and uh, some sort of bonfire where deities are being raised, and then his friends being tied up and shot by guys in in in masks, and I mean,

obviously a disturbed little kid who couldn't distinguish back from reality. But when he started talking about some sort of cult activity in the woods, and I'll get into this next episode if you're okay with taking this to another episode, Okay, Jesse miss Kelly when he was confronted with you know, Gary Gtchell obviously was a veteran cop, and he says to him, you know how deep was this cult activity

of Echos. Miss Kelly says, well, sometimes we just take girls into the woods and basically have like orgies with them. And he's like, Eccles believed in the Satanist stuff, but I didn't. But then he references this older guy who miss Kelly claimed got Echos into the Crowley stuff. And

this man's never been identified. And once the trial got underway, it's, you know, the police had enough on their plate and trying three men for homicide and two trials that really does tax the resources of even a wealthy jurisdiction, let alone some small town without a real capital base. Everybody on the investigative side essentially forgot about this unknown, this unsubbed who was described by miss Kelly, but miss Kelly described him to a T and I don't know man

like other than is miss Kelly a liar? Yeah, but when he came clean in his confession, he's never deviated from it and everything he said bore out. And what would he have to gained by confabulating this imaginary guy, you know, like it doesn't nothing he said to be clear, and I'll get into this next episode. Nothing he said about this unsub mitigated his own liability, and he died to suggest this guy was on the scene when the

murders happened. He just said, Oh he's He's well known in occult circles locally, and he basically was a sell him a guy who got Damien into more serious occult worship. But yeah, well we'll get into the Hutchinson testimony next time. Yeh, that's cool, fair thing.

Y'all can check that out, and maybe, who knows, we might do a deep dive on Epstein stuff because there's been a whole bunch of documents out and you know, I certainly have my takeaways. I think you do as well. Anyway, that'll come out sooner or later. As far as my stuff, The Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen to podcasts. If you want the episodes early in ad Free, you have to slide me a few bucks. You can do so on Patreon, gum Road, or Substack. Also our

sponsor Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. I've been snowed in for almost a week and a half. Now I'm going insane. The South is not prepared for this much ice, and so I have been to the gym and forever. I'm going crazy. But JD still has a good product. Thomas is great talking to you, man. I appreciate it everyon home, Keep your head up. I can't last forever.