Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? w/ Thomas777: The J. Burden Show Ep. 407

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I enjoyed the book a lot, and I figured, you know what, let's continue our series, get it all done at once, and discuss the book. It's a pretty easy read. It's maybe two hundred pages. It's something you can get through quickly. It is very different than the films. There's a lot of crossover, and if you've seen the films, there were things you will understand about the book. The main characters are largely the same, but it is a compliment piece. It is different enough to be well worth reading.

And yeah, I haven't read a lot of Dick stuff, but it's obviously a master of the genre. So I'm curious, Thomas. I'll let you introduce this. When did you first read it and what sort of grabbed you about it?

other times they'd play cooking shows or phishing shows. Then at night they'd play movies, and Blade Runner was one of the consistent films on offer, and my mom was a huge fan of it, so I was always into it as an ip and then when I got into science fiction, as an adolescent, you know, twelve thirteen, fourteen years old, I was reading a bunch of Harlan Ellison and I got the paperback compilation Dark Visions, and in the back there was an advertisement for other paperbacks including

do Android's Dream of Electric Sheep, which was then being the paper bank was being sold as a Blade Runner. So I'm like, go, wow, the source material. So I went out and I found it, I think a Crown Books, and it made a big impact on me. And like I said, I'm not Philip K. Dick's unusual because he's he's hard to categorize. I mean, obviously he's he was a science fiction author, but not in the sense that Arthur C. Clark was. I invoked Clerk because Clark was

more into metaphysics and theological postulates in questions. But at the same time, he very much had heart sci fi aspects, you know to his writing. And you know, Philip K. Dick, he wasn't like Frank Herbert. He wasn't dealing with paradomatic systems as his subject matter. You know, socio political phenomena at scale was absolutely a framing device and essentially his

world building. But Philip K. Dicks his narratives and his stories, it's about they raise existential questions and ontological questions about the individual and the individual mind amids disruptive aspects of modernity. And that's the strength of stuff like a Scanner Darkly and do Android's Dream. That's one of the reasons it's relatable because it's describing and depicting phenomena that the reader experiences in his own life. Because these things are intrinsic

to late modernity. When I say late modernity, I'm speaking in Hegelian terms, not mercy and ones. This would be clear. And future shock is a real thing, and a lot's been written of future shock. The phrase was coined quite literally by Alvin Toffler. He wrote a book titled Future Shock, and there was humanist aspects to his analysis, particularly how marriage patterns and child rearing patterns at scale would shake out, and you know the implications of the mobility of populations

and the sort of tensions that would derive. They were in as well as economic phenomena and consumption patterns of scale, and people like Seawright Mills and Christopher lash dealt with that kind of thing too, Because it's intrinsic to sociology, but very few people have ever written anything about the phenomena of future shock on the discrete individu usual mind, particularly situated in what's obviously an American context, you know, or if it's been attempted, it takes the form of satire,

you know, like Kurt Vonnegut type stuff.

came true, you know. I mean, that's and there's there's subtleties to it as well, you know that I think are adjacent that related to the primary topical thrust, but that raise interesting questions in their own right, especially the you know, how the United States and the Soviet Union collaborate on matters relating to replicants, you know, uh, decard runs across one of the renegade Nexus six who's posing as a KGB officer who's a blade runner, you know,

because that's liaising with KGB blade runners is not a usual for a big city American cop who deals in the same grim professional duties. And that kind of interplay between integral matters of technology, particularly technology that's purposed for warfare and violence at scale, even or perhaps especially at times a heightened tension like that, that was a peculiar but unsurprising aspect of the Cold War. And that's something that's very much related to technology. It's not intrinsic to

conflict paradigms. You know, it's just one example of what I was talking about. But it's also the the ethical aspects, the humanist aspects of technological civilization. They're not generally addressed in the same capacities that you know, Philip K. Dick deals with them, and that's very insightful. You know, the the criteria of what constitutes a human being becoming splendidly arbitrary.

You know, obviously there's a there's a there's all manner of there's all manner of counterfactuals that are kind of on the nose in driving home some egalitarian message and what have you. But the you know, and the way they the way they deal with the subjective concepts of the in groups and out groups, and how such things are determined in political capacities. It sounds to be very simple minded, as most moralizing narratives are. But phil Kate

Dick's not approaching it like that. I mean, obviously there's there's a strongly ethical component to the manner in which replicants are treated because they are a slave cast, but that's not the primary impetus for why they're disqualified as

human beings. It's because if everybody is human, then nobody is really you know, If life forms that can be manufactured are as human as ones who are born of a woman's womb, that kind of neutralizes all epistemic priors about the human condition and what's unique about human beings, even if you're not religiously minded, even if you're a secularist, And that causes this sort of spiraling nihilism, and it also has a tendency to compromise all of their ethical structures.

So it's essential that this criteria be maintained. It's not just some pretext, you know, to to rationalize why these life forms are forced to serve on death squads off world, or be prostitutes or work in you know, lead lives

of endless toy and pain. Obviously, it's an aggravating factor that diminishes the potentiality of replicans realizing any sort of liberation or you know, being afforded full agency as human beings, whether it's not the primary titalyst and if there's that kind of nihilistic spiral, you know, the center cannot hold.

Things fall apart quite literally systemically. That's really you know, and this is very much on people's minds owing to the Cold War as well, because when there's a kind of that, there's a kind of dialectical aganism that leads to you know, more like profound philosophical activity when there's quite literally systems competing for supremacy over this planet and over human affairs, and the subject matter was the the

you know, the dignity of the human being. If you accept that, you know, the Cold War primarily was in dialectical terms of the confrontation between you know, progressives and and left to Galeans who have very different ideas on

the historical process as well as the human condition. But the point being that this constant discussion of how to mitigate alienation amiss not just the dehumanization of labor and patterns of life that you know surround labor, but also the proverbial death of God, which on the twentieth century was just taken for granted by intellectuals and playable theorists alike. That becomes all the more of a existential moral hazard

real will charge. And it's not it's not as if these things have abated or left us since the the you know, the onset of globalism and the defeat of the communists. But it's the character of the the dialectical process has changed a bit because there's not that agonistic catalyst, if that makes any sense. But you know, so it's both. It's both the books both a period piece as well as you know, as well as a highly conceptual sci fi novella that remains relevant in discreet ways, you know.

I think that's the real strength of it, you know, And that's and like before it went live, that the big difference is, you know, it deals with religious belief, or Aristot's religious belief, like for those who haven't read this story. There's this sort of he's both a Messianic figure, but he's also kind of like Billy Graham. He's like

this media personality named Wilbur Mercer. And in the world of Blade Runner in the novel, there's this entire mythology around him and this whole redemption narrative about, you know, the the moral integrity of the human being and human agency there in which you know, sets man apart and

allows for the possibility of salvation. And Deckard develops a certain fascination with this belief system as the story goes on, and uh, the the critics of Mercer, as well as the liberationist minded replicants, claim that Mercer's not even a real person. He's either an actor who's playing this character with this entirely imaginary biography, or he's some sort of

projected a I or a hologram or something. And uh, you know, it raises the question too, if, uh, if Messianism or you know, true theological commitments are even possible if things are discussed in these terms, if there's a presumption of all human experiences is being potentially simulated, you know, psychological experiences, the very very fact of that potentiality, it might you know, it self neutralize the potential for authentic

spiritual life once. In other words, there's a categorical emphasis or fixation on authenticity that means that that you know, God is already dead, at least in terms of you know, precedented religious belief in things. So there's a lot packed into that two hundred pages. That's that's the best place to start, I'd say, yes.

voluntarily plunged herself into depression. This is something she's been more and more drawn to, and in the course of the two arguing, he's constantly telling her, well, why are you even doing this? This is stupid. Just make yourself in a good mood. Also, we get introduced to, as

you've said, mercerism. The religious right in Mercerism is the empathy box, where seemingly all humans across the Solar System, both on Earth and on you know, the Martian colonies have this sort of psychic communion where they become part of sort of the martyrdom of mercer right. It's this repeated motif of him walking up a hill while being struck with stones. We learn that this experience is emotionally intense that old people occasionally die involved in it. But

there are several things there. One, because this is a world after a nuclear apocalypse, the condition of the Earth is even worse than the movies. Possibly effectively, anyone who can get off planet has the world is just bathed in radioactive ash, and so it is physically difficult to remain on Earth. DECKERD, for example, where's a lead lined codpiece so that he can potentially bear children. We also learn that this level of radiation has produced what they

call specials. There's different varieties ant heads, chicken heads, basically people who have been mutated. One of our main characters in fact, is mutated. His brain is gone. He was at one point a talentan mechanic, and now they just sort of keep him around. But also one of the interesting things about mercerism is an extremement, sort of an emotional spiritual level to animals. Many animals have been driven extinct by this nuclear war, and so everyone has everyone

wants to have one. This is a major status game. And so after this fight with his wife, he goes up to the roof to talk with his neighbors. His neighbor has gotten or has a mayor, which is extraordinarily expensive. This mayor is genetically notable, and she's you know, she has a foal, right, which is going to be both extremely socially and monetarily beneficial to this man. While Deckard he has, as the title of the book says, an electric cheap a very convincing but still mechanical replica of

a real animal. We learn that this is sort of shameful. It's sort of looked down on having an imitation animal and their pole systems set up so that no one else knows. For instance, a large part of the plot is driven forward by electric animal repairment, and the whole thing is set up to look like a veterinary hospital. Obviously, again you know, in this world where animals are very we're very rare and valuable, they're often stolen or you know, there's there's a lot of money to be made. Uh.

So we learned a couple of things there. One that attachment to animals, which is a central driving sort of thrust into this plot. Uh, just kind of going through.

It's sort of a similar hook where the Rosen Corporation is obviously they want to stay ahead of the detection technology for obvious reasons. And we learn a couple of things. One, the Void Comptest doesn't work on human either schizophrenics or psychopaths, so they begin to inject some doubt, have you ever retired a human? There are humans who are fully biological but lack empathy. Effectively, the Void Comptest is a test

for empathy. And what's interesting is that, very similarly to the movie, right, there's a moment where he is supporting he tests Rachel. But what's interesting in this case is the first time he doesn't catch her. He goes through and when he gets a reading, they say, oh, we got you. We've got this on camera. She's just a schizophrenic or she's a psychopath, I can't remember. They have some explanation for it, and they're literally leaning on him.

They try to bribe him with an owl, the same motif you'll note from the film, and then he figures her out very narrowly. He discovers, oh, wait, you actually are an android. And so the relationship between Decard and the corporation is different between the films, but also his relationship to Rachel is very different. Rachel is much as much less of a sympathetic character in the book instead

of said of the film. So he goes to meet the first Android, and this android is apparently posing as a KGB official, right, a blade runner from the Soviet Union here obviously to see one of the first retirements of Nexas six. This new advanced android, unbeknownst to Deckard at least any this is the android in disguise. He tries to kill him. Deckord narrowly, you know, retires him, and then I believe I can't remember if it's right before right after Rachel calls him and basically says, you

have to bring me on the next one. I want to be a part of this. I'm going over this quickly because I want to get to the introduction of I think perhaps one of the most interesting characters in the background. At the same time, this is sort of the b plot. Isidor, who is this you know, formerly intelligent mechanic who has become special due to radiation exposure, has met Ritz, one of the escape androids we don't

know yet. Interesting thing about the difference in how androids are portrayed in this is they are much more sinister in the book than in the film. It is very

clear that these androids do not have empathy. And the way this has shown with how PRIs is introduced is that again much like the film, this is depopulated earth, and so even in the city center, apartments are scarcely full, and there's these constant references to the fact that the earth is covered in junk, that there's other people's items, you know, their family photos, their furniture, all decaying around everyone,

and so people live in largely empty apartments. His character Isidor, works at this animal repair facility and he runs into Priss he's simple minded, he lives by himself, he's very lonely. But when he encounters her, she's naked to the waist but has no sort of shame or shock about that whatsoever. Described very alien even in the way that she interacts with him. She lies to his face constantly, clearly taking

advantage of him without really a second thought. There is no empathy in the way that she interacts with this simple minded man who clearly is lonely. And that's sort of the b plot going on in the background. And I'm skipping over a lot here, not because it's not important, but just because there's a character that I want to talk about, because he's, in my mind, perhaps the most

interesting part of this. So Deckard goes on to sort of the next the next bounty he has to collect, which is this android who is serving as an opera singer. She's described as very talented, sort of hiding in plain sight. But when he goes into her dressing room a film or a scene we see sort of echoed in the film, he's arrested. Doesn't go well. She basically says, hey, this pervert's in my room, and an officer comes to arrest him. Now Deckard works with the police. He doesn't know this officer.

They're taking him to a police station he's never heard of, but he goes along with it, and when he arrives there, he realizes that this is sort of an alternate police station run by androids. And when he's there he meets another blade Runner, another bounty hunter who's working for these androids.

in most of most of his major works. And it's uh, but that's another but that's key too, because Deckord initially he can't distinguish between not just as you know, fellow humans and replicants, but these are people who are literally masquerading as a as police officers, and he still can't distinguished between you identify essential characteristics that supposedly distinguishes them. The replicant that he meets is obviously the model for Roy Baddy. What's his name in the book? I can't remember.

is this opera singer. And throughout this interaction, the two of them are talking and Resh is genuinely wondering is he human or not right because again he found out that he was in the company of these androids, that the possibility of synthetic memories being injected into his brain he doesn't know, for example, because he you know, on first examination, he's like, ohyeah, I've been working there for years, and then he realizes, wait a minute, I can't have

I've only been here for two I have all of these artificial memories. So the two of them again go to collect this bounty on they meet her in an art museum and she sort of realizes that the chick is up, but before she you know, asks like, oh, can you buy me a copy of this print I'm looking at. Deckard feels bad. He has empathy for androids. This it's a major plot point going forward, and Rush has no time for this. He's like, what are you doing?

This doesn't matter. The two of them eliminate her. It's it's sort of a nasty scene, and afterwards, Decard basically says like all right, Like I'm going to need to, you know, run this test on you to determine if you're human or not. And what's interesting is that Resh is really not bothered by this at all. For instance, he says like, well, you know, if I'm an android, I'll just kill myself. He says, I'll just hold my breath until I die. I can do that. And it's

again interesting because Deckard susses him out. He realizes like, oh, you know, you're human, You're just a monster. And there is a contrast there too.

bringing in their animals to be worked on. There are there's a mistake which is ironic later enough, where a live animal is brought into this robot hospital and killed when isidor unbeknowingly basically plugs it into a battery charger and just electrifies this cat, which is obviously a serious situation, but it's a little funny, yeah. And so they have this conversation and Resh again is very clear with the record, he thinks he is bad at his job because he says,

you have developed empathy for particularly female androids. You have this sort of attraction to him, and Race basically says like, well, there's only one way to get this out of your system. You need to sleep with one of these androids and then kill her. It's the only way you can do it. And so at this point, right, Deckard has been through you know, the Ringer, He's he's had a number of

kind of violent experiences. So he goes up picks up the goat on finance, basically saying like, well, I'll pay it off on this, and goes back to his wife. His wife is immensely pleased, right, They've got this real animal. She's sort of over the moon, lifted out of her depression. But as you know, Deckard is sort of going off to bed. His boss calls him and says like, no, you've got to get the remaining androids tonight. In the intervening time, Baddie his I think they call her his wife.

I can't remember her name in this have met up with Tris at isidor Is home. They've sort of prepared the place for a final battle. We're starting to see more and more this dynamic with UH is them sort

of talking down to Isidor. And throughout the whole thing, UH, there has been this recurring character of Buster Friendly, who's this sort of like jocular, like comedy host who is on the radio, you know, twenty three hours a day, got this revolving cast of characters, you know, perfectly funny, always ready with equip and the whole time he has been teasing this big reveal. We're gonna let everyone know this big you know, journalism expose. And so the action

is sort of building to a crescendo. Deckard realizes, all right, I've got to you know, retire these three androids. I'm already worn down. This white might well be fatal. And at the same time we're building to this crescendo, this big you know, obviously fight, but also this huge you know reveal, you know, what is going to be revealed. So he calls Rachel, and Rachel has said, you know,

I want to be there. I will help you. He's sort of rebuffed her, and the two meet up at a hotel room, initially to discuss, you know, the sort of mission, but the two of them end end up going to bed together. We get a couple of things here. One this is described in sort of very clinical in human terms. She is not human, despite the fact that

obviously they're capable of this act together. So I'm curious, Thomas, what do you make of that scene, the one between him and Rachel, because there's there's a lot there the two of them in talking one to another.

other condicts as well. It's it's almost it's like people call without intimacy, and that's that's key to doing Android's dream of Electric Sheet because again it's it's it's you know, the it's another aspect of performative sociality, you know, and there's as if I it reminded me a lot of Crimes of the Future, which is the Cronenberg movie that I highly recommend where not to digress too much, but the protag and that Nigel Mortenson character the people of

ere outicized extreme body modification to the point of where performance artists do things like removing their own organs and things. But uh, there's this one part where like this woman tries to seduce him and he says, I'm sorry, I'm not good at the old sex.

And in the source material, not only is that not president, but it's really the the statement on you know, the the fact that intimacy is precluded in this future where there's not real grounding elements to the way humans relate socially, you know, like a prerequisite, a prerequisite to intimacy is context. And I think that I think that's the key takeaway, unless I'm like reading too much into things, but that's a I think I think that's the subtext.

off of an assembly line. She says that she's like a bottle cap right, pressed out identically. So when Deckard It goes to confront piece androids, she's with him in the car. They have sort of an argument of falling out. He threatens to kill her and she says, well, you know, I know you can never do it. I've done this with nine different bounty hunters before, and This sort of sends Deckard into a rage, but he realizes he can't

do it. He is too empathetic for her even in this situation, so he basically tells her, He's like, all right, fine, whatever, I'm retiring after this job. I can't do this anymore. Get out now, go back, go back to Seattle and run like you you'll be able to be free for the remaining in her case, two years of her life. At the same time, we're seeing this the culmination of this big reveal from Buster Friendly, which is we learned several things, which is one, he is an android. He's synthetic,

so are all the guests on his show. One of the interesting things that Isidor comes up with, and it's funny because you can clearly tell he is an intelligent man who has been made stupid.

I believe it's Isidor. I don't think it's Deckerdough. I might be wrong on that is picking up on the fact that Buster Friendly is constantly denigrating mercerism, despite the fact that mercerism is officially recognized by the US by both the Soviets and the Americans as pro social right after you know, war, exactly, it's necessary to have some sort of pro social force. This has created among humans a sort of synthetic ersatz empathy. Right, killing is extremely, uh,

you know, extremely stigmatized. Obviously, in the example of animals, one of the tests on the uh well, actually several of the tests on the void comp or questions on the voice voint comp test, are about exactly that an idea of eating a dog or a leather couch or something like that is.

And so you know, as we've said before, when you know, right before this kind of you know, pinnacle of the action, we see this big expose. The androids in isidor kind of you know, huddled around a television and it's revealed according to you know, to buddy here that Mercer is a lie. They've found allegedly the actor who played that role, who was captured, and you know these films which are

you know, pushed out on the empathy organ. They say that the stones which were thrown at him were or styrofoam, they couldn't have possibly hurt him, that this was all made on a sound stage. The moon in this is painted, and so one we see that, you know, that idea that the androids are denying this form even of Ersat's religion or Ersat's empathy, and also that that sort of

war for the soul. I think that the symbolism is interesting because in this synthetic memory, when you go through it, you feel sort of the pain in his side, right obviously a you know, sort of an echo of the Crucifixion when he is struck in his side. So he's depicted with you know, blood gushing out of his side, right.

into the wilderness, does Elijah? Right, Yeah, it's uh. And then when he discovers the when he discovers the frog, which he's convinced that first, I mean, he's it's it strikes him because it's so rare to see even little animals that you know, in the wild anymore. And he takes the frog home to his wife and then they just they eventually discovered that the frog is synthetic, but Decker's apparently made peace with that.

they're situated in. If they've got to constantly that things that in there that populate their environment for authenticity, or if they constantly got to try and identify what concepts or what criteria render something conceptually authentic or real, that that that makes empathy, that those conditions preclude empathy and intimacy and all of these other essentially human things. And the only way out of that nihilistic spiral.

a human being with agency. But it becomes impossible to value things in any deeply committed way, because all emotional responses are merely cultivated around symbolic psychological items that are supposedly universal to human beings and are only aesthetically coded to appeal to whatever individual there tailored do fascinate, you know, and in acknowledging the irredeemability of the world as it is in Blade Runner, you know, one can access those

spiritual you know, characteristics to the human being. Again, that's why I think it's profound. I mean, basically, he realizes his wife likes the frog anyway, if I'm remembering right, And that's kind of when he makes peace with things, you know. You know, he's no longer he's no longer disturbed by the it's inauthenticity, you know. And but that's when arbitrary criteria are assigned to qualify or just qualify human beings from from their essential humanity, you know, which

again is an essential aspect of the social order. It's the only thing that's keeping things from falling apart. That bleeds into all other essentially human activities, you know, emotional, cognitive, and physical as well, and there becomes this confused and desperate effort to identify what is authentic within one's own emotional life. And that's why the characters who are truly sociopathic, they're the ones who are splendidly adapted to that environment.

And I mean that's a commentary to or meditation rather on how corrupt thing it is to uh try and curate ethics according to some ideological paradigm, even if it's necessary to sustain systemic features of you know, of the of the political order anything else. I mean, even if the intentions behind such things are good, you you're doing violence to people's ability to curate within themselves a genuine

moral intelligence. I mean I and I mean that that's that's obviously a huge, uh, a hugely relevant thing to the I mean, it's relevant anyway, but it's particularly Cold War coded and temporal terms, because that's exactly what their respective regimes, albeit the Second World and have much more brutal and ham fisted way, but that's what both regimes

were very much attempting to do. You know, I'm gonna make the mistake there was an effort to create a new American man and woman as much as there was to create a new Soviet man. It just wasn't it wasn't characterized that way, and it was more nuanced, and there wasn't There wasn't an American version of the Great Purge or the Art to Death camps or annihilation therapy.

So there were still deeply organic and historical tendencies in American life that were competing dialectically for dominance over the official ideology. But I think you know what I mean, forgive me if that was a bit too No, not at all.

you know where. He tells him, you know, I'm here. Isidor remarks, sort of internally, of course, that Decker doesn't look anything like he thought. He's just kind of this small, schlubby guy who's doing this you dirty job, seemingly very beaten down. And again, part of the reason that Isidor has run out is that in this apartment, while he's looking for supplies, he discovers a spider right, a genuine biological spider right, and the Androids have no empathy for this.

But Chris pulls its legs off, literally because she says, you know, it can walk just as well on four as it does on eight. It'll probably die anyway. And of course his Stor is horrified by this. And we see again that lack of empathy when Deckard goes to the door and he not even particularly convincingly pretends to be Isidor. But they can't tell the difference, right then, what is there between them? He busts down the door and kills them. Batty is much less a character in

the novel than he is in the movie. He's I think in the book he's a field hand, you know, He's not even necessarily you know, this this great leader, although we hear a little bit that he was experimenting with psychedelics and with religion to try and create empathy

within his in his followers. What's particularly interesting is that there's a discussion I believe, just before this, at the kind of right before the climax of the book, where they talk about empathy, you know, and and when it is revealed at least allegedly that the mercer is a fake. They say, oh, we're you always hold this over us. You say that empathy is what makes you human, who make it better? But apparently that's all fake. Apparently that

is simply synthetic. Which again, you know, looking to the fact that you know, uh friendly is a is an android, there's sort of an open question there. But afterwards, right, and this is shortly before his trip to the Pacific Northwest, we learn a couple of things, which is one h deckerd is almost completely broken, you know. He he is having a hard time relaying this mystical experience he has with Mercer. He claims to be Mercer.

the warranty to exchange it for another one. But Rachel, before she fled town, came to his house and killed his goat right, there's an element of jealousy, perhaps because in their interactions she talks about the difference between what they are doing, and then his relationship to his wife, where is a possibility of you know, giving birth and

producing children. We also see a little bit of the fact that these and rowds basically our psychopaths, you know, they have no regard for anyone else and says you've said, you know that the action closes with Deckard sort of sleep on the couch after you know, Iran, his wife has discovered that this tote is synthetic, and there is that sort of you know, making peace with synthetic life.

And I think that that's a very interesting point because you know, on one hand, we have seen Deckard you know, sort of shed his empathy, right, he was able to kill PRIs with you know, without a second thought really

at least initially, that didn't bother him. And again we see him sort of adapting to this new world as you've said that psychopathy and Deckard I don't think becomes a full you know, psychopath like the other Blade Runner, but it is this sort of interesting you know, making peace with the world you find yourself in it to kind of close my remarks on it. This book is

very very good. There's a lot that we weren't able to get into because even though it's a short novel, it's very philosophically dense, and there's only so much you can say in an hour. I don't want to say we've spoiled it, because look, it's the movies. It's the movies spoil a book. I don't spoilers don't even matter

to a novel that's good enough, which this is. But there's a lot in there, boast about the kind of, as you've said, the creation of new men during the Cold War, and also the same kind of ruminations on you know, empathy, what it is to be human. I will say, for my money, this is not to say that the book is bad. Body means I think that the the movies are more interesting than the book. There it's sort of a tighter, more refined vision. It's personal preference.

Still well worth your time, particularly if you're interested in, uh, you know, science fiction. But those are sort of my very broad thoughts on it. And it's a very neat compliment piece to the other two films. And you know, Taken is a sort of a loose trilogy. Between the three of them, there's a lot to gather from, you know, this novel as well as the two films.

description where you can find him. I'm I think, like many people, Thomas getting very excited, uh for your long form. I think that you know, I'm I don't want speak out a term, but I maybe getting a you know, an early draft which I'm excited to go over. Obviously, you know there's a there's a lot in that and I, whenever it comes out, will be pointing people in that direction. As far as my stuff, Jay Burtons Show, apple Spot, YouTube,

anywhere you want to listen to podcasts. If you want to support me and this is what I do, you can throw me a few bucks a month on Patreon, Substack or gum road. Get the episodes early in ad free. I know the ads are irritating, but look I got to pay my mortgage somehow, and that way you can get the content a little bit earlier without those irritating ads. And the value proposition's pretty decent. It's like twenty two to twenty three cents an episode less if you want

to view it as hours of content. So you're welcome, and yeah, guys, in all seriousness, I do appreciate you supporting me. Also, check out our sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. I use their workouts three four days a week. As far as things I recommend, this is something that I use. It's part of my daily life. And JD's a very very talented guy, good at what he does. Again, Thomas Man, thank you so much. This was a great time.