Angry Young Men w/ Tom Foe: The J. Burden Show Ep. 405

you put out, they're well done. So yeah, man, I'm really excited to be recommended your stuff and then to get you on the show man what.

Yeah exactly, And you know, I'll enjoy some of that from time to time, but I do kind of miss the era of the response video, you know, like maybe it's nostalgia, but it is something you don't see much anymore.

can just do things right. As the meme goes, Yeah, dude, I'm curious, and I'm not asking you to give a super kind of detailed breakdown, but like, how do you get an interested in politics? Because look, you know niche writ wing politics is bigger than it's ever been, but you know, it's still not something that you know, every person you bump into is familiar with So how do you end up here?

it was kind of like a TV show. There's a lot of drama between the candidates, and you had the debates that were crazy, and then you had all the stuff happening online. Like twenty sixteen was the first election in my opinion, that was really kind of online. You had all the Facebook stuff, the Instagram stuff. You had stuff going on with like wiki leaks where they were leaking emails from the government and Hillary Clinton's emails, and then there was a big conspiracy with the Pizzagate stuff,

like all the trafficking. And so the first year I kind of got into politics, I was just online all the time, and I started getting into all these niche stories that were going on, and so I guess that's where it started. And then obviously you fast forward four years you have Trump losing, and then you have all these people saying, well, it was stolen, and then it wasn't stolen, and then you have all this stuff with COVID. So it was just kind of and I'm not alone here.

I've talked to a lot of guys that are around my same age, and I feel like most young men who kind of got into politics because of Trump, I feel like most of them are in a similar position to where I am. Because there was always some niche story going on, whether it's Pizzagate or Jeffrey Epstein or the election being stolen or COVID, all these different conspiracies things going on. You were always just kind of like in these niche groups talking about these things online, and

so it just keeps pushing you further and further. And then in twenty twenty four, I voted for Trump for the third time, and I was pretty excited. And then this year, or at least last year, I kind of got a little bit more radicalized because I kind of figured the Trump admin wasn't doing what I've kind of wanted them to do, and I'm not alone on that.

I feel like they kind of drop the ball. And so, I mean, the only reason I'm kind of where I am politically is just because there's been one story after another, or there's just been one disappointment after another from the establishment conservatives and I don't, you know, like the Democrats. So I'm just constantly getting pushed in the other direction, you know. And it's kind of as simple as that,

to be honest. It's just the Democrats hate white guys and they hate young dudes, and they push all this LGBTQ stuff on you, and then the Republicans don't really do that much better, and so you just kind of end up where I'm at. Yeah.

I remember being super swept up in it. And there was this other dynamic that made it really fun because I was in a you know, a fairly conservative area and it was a ton of fun watching like the older people right like at my school or at you know, church or whatever kind of social gathering get really upset and really offended by Trump, right, and eventually, you know a lot of these people would kind of come around on it, but you saw that kind of like never

Trumper thing, and that made it even more fun, right because you could both annoy you know, the most irritating people in the world liberals and also like the president of your school or either the principal of your school or whatever. And so that was really fun. So like I know what you mean that kind of like infectious. It felt like, you know, this was like a way to both you know, do something funny and also kind of like throw a wrench into it, you know, throw

a wrench into this, like says them. And for me, you know, I got super radicalized in college because like I went to this like small liberal arts school for a little bit. I ended up you know, dropping out and finishing somewhere else and it was pretty close to the you know, where the whole unite the right thing happened. And so I showed up for like freshman year right after that, and dude, it was a disaster. Like there, I've said it before on my show, so I'll you know,

fly through the story. But like they bring us in small school, a couple hundred kids break us into you know, men and women, And for the men, it was like a full on struggle session. Like there was this big, you know, kind of double wide kind of woman at the front and she literally said, it's a phrase like burned into my head. You know, one in three women on a college campus will be raped. Look to your right, look to your left. One of those men could be

a rapist. Dude like seventeen. I guess I was eighteen barely, but like, hey, that's that's kind of a strong start, you know, to your college experience and to your point. Right, You're like, okay, well I can't be part of that, Like there's no way for me to do that without you know, putting address on I guess, but like that's not an option, and so they're like, okay, well, I guess, like the Republicans are my guys, and you know, there's

some things that I do or don't like. And then to me, like the point where it was really like okay, like this is the two options presented are non viable was obviously the whole twenty twenty thing, because it's basically like, oh, like we're depending on your opinion. You can just turn off an election, you can change the way that we do things, and then you have you know, Joe Biden and I have a very distinct memory as helping one of my buddies move and you know the whatever. The

roof of his new place needed some repair. So we were just like a shoot, like, we'll put a tarp over it until you can, you know, get someone here to actually fix it. So I'm sitting on the roof with my best friend and it's right when you know, Joe Biden was you know, pushing out this whole thing of like, oh, if you don't have the thing, right, I can't say it's the one thing I've gotten a YouTube strike for. If you don't have the thing, you

can't work, you can't get a job. So still in college at the time, and I was like, am I just like gonna be like homeless or like part of the underclass? You know, like some guy like begging for money because I won't do this. And it's like, oh, I guess that's how much they hate me. You know, they're willing to do that, like you can't even contribute to society. And I think that like a lot of guys, and it sounds like you're in the kind of similar position.

You see, like Trump come around for the third time, seems like he's gonna win, and you're like, okay, like all right, like you maybe you learned some stuff, you learned who you couldn't trust, couldn't trust how you have to take on a government that hates you. And for like the first couple of months, it's like, okay, like I guess, you know, I was a little cynical, but it seems like he's learned, you know, learned what you

need to do. And then real, real quickly, all that goes away, and it's like, okay, so you're your one priority is a certain Middle Eastern democracy. That's what it comes down to. And so even when you know, as the moniles would say, right, you do the thing, you get your guy in the big you know, anti establishment guy, it's like, oh, okay, so so nothing changes. So we

just have no solution within this system. And I mean, look like obviously I've been on the internet saying radical things well before that, but that's one of those ones. We're like, okay, so that's that's the state of play. And you know, I'm glad you brought up the you know the age thing as well, because like one of my least favorite I guess fa I should do kind of like reading these is the like endless number of like articles and opinion pieces about like why are young

men so radical? And the solutions are all completely insane, like oh, we'll just find a you know, a chubby Hispanic woman to go to frat parties and that'll you know, win them back over for you know, the Democrats or whatever. And I'm saying Democrat Republican. Well we all know I mean when I say that, Yeah, but I'm curious and maybe I could throw back to you, like what's your answer that question, like why are young men so radical?

it's not just one simple answer. You'll hear it from Republicans, for example, when they talk about it, they'll talk about young men and they'll say, you'll see some chick go on Fox News and talk about how young men just want to play video games and they don't want to, you know, interact with society. They don't want to marry a single mom or you know, step up to the

plate or whatever. And then when they talk about solutions, they always talk about like the economy, and they'll they'll say stuff like, oh, we just need to give them the ability to buy a house, if they could own a home, or it's the job, or it's the taxes, you know, it's it's it's money, and they focus on that.

And then for Democrats it's they say the money. But then they have some weird thing where it's like they're being men are brainwashed and they're just all misogynists and that's why they're unhappy, and we just need to liberate them from that way of thinking and then we can all be equal. So they're both like getting it wrong, because it's not just one reason why men are the

way they are. A big reason is because of you know, purpose, a lot of young men in today's society, they lack a purpose, and no one amount of them being able to buy a home or have some corporate job that really is just a bullshit job to be honest, that doesn't really matter, that can get replaced with AI in ten years, is gonna you know, fill that void. You have a generation of men that were demonized one hundred percent.

You had a generation of men that were kind of just kind of just abandoned, you know, even with today, Like a problem the Republican Party has is they keep doing things that favor the older generations, like the boomers, and then they'll talk about how young men are angry because they can't afford a home, but then they won't and act policies that are gonna bring home prices down. They'll give you a fifty year mortgage, but that's just about it. And they think it's it's money. They think

it's because they can't afford things. But there's so much more. There's the purpose, you know that there's the idea of this country doesn't have a future. There's the idea that it's wrong for young men to be masculine, and it's wrong for young white men to be proud of being white. It's wrong for you to have a sense of identity and belonging, and these things give you purpose in a way. It's not just about money or affording a home. Also another reason is quite frankly, it is because of dating.

It's because of relationships, not just between just the dating relationships, but also like friendships. I think young gen Z men. There's some study I saw like a few years ago that talked about how like fifteen percent of gen Z men have no friends, like at all. They're chronically just

online and they have nobody to talk to. And then our generation we grew up when if you want to talk about dating, because relationships, you know that that gives you a family, that gives you legacy, that gives you kids. It's kind of impossible at this point, Like it's very screwed up. Like ever since before I was old enough to date, there was a dating app. You know, before Tender, there was Hot or not before that, there was Facebook.

And it's feminis like feminists and the feminization of the country. It's a very radical ideology that's kind of rooted at the core of this nation. You even have Republican conservative women that are basically covert feminists, and they'll talk about all these issues with men, but they won't talk about problems with women and how a lot of women these days are kind of undateable. And it's not to say that men are completely datable. There's a lot of problems

that go both ways. But the reason why young men are so angry and there's so many issues is because it's not just one problem. It is the economy, it is the future. It is the fact that the leaders have completely abandoned the future of this nation and sold the future that's supposed to belong to the children to Black Rock and all these different companies. It's you know, we have a country that has no no real like morals. There's no like real role models for young men. Either.

With black families, you have like no fathers in the families, so they have no men to look up to. And then with white men and white kids, they have fathers that are basically just cooks, and they don't stand up for anything, and they don't believe in anything, and at the first sight of any type of conflict, they just kind of like cower. And you just have a lot of issues that have just been compounding throughout the decades. Really, and gen Z men are kind of reaching a powder

keg moment where they're just angry. A lot of them are just checked out. And it is because you know, they can't date. It is because they have no purpose. It is because you know a lot of them will go to college, they'll get a degree, they won't be able to find work. It is because they can't get home. So it is the economy as well. But you don't really have any leaders that are focusing on the real issues that men have. They think it's just we can have them buy a house or whatever, and that's going

to fix everything. And it's like, no, there's so much more, but nobody wants to have that conversation.

in debt. You know, an ever greater portion of their income is being used to you know, provide basic necessities. Like I was talking to uh Proving bull right, he's I think he's about our age about exactly this, and he's super smart, you know right now he works as a you know, financial analyst. So like he's you know, a smart kid, right, And so I just asked him offhand. I was like, hey man, how many jobs have you

applied for? And his answer was if I'm not I don't want to misquote him here, but he's like around six hundred.

And look like the economy sucks sometimes it happens, but that feeling of hopelessness you're talking about where it's like what do I got to do to get ahead, like it feels as if, you know, you're always behind the eight ball, and you know, as regards dating, this is something that's really hard to express to people who didn't grow up in kind of the the algorithm era right when it, you know, because look like you know, even kind of like core and older millennials remember the before

social media era, is that like that radically changes the playing field because again, one, you are basing a relationship at least even if you get to that point off of like fleeting momentary attraction like not how you talk, not your social setting, whatever, just that. And also it plays into like negative you know, negative traits in female psychology, which is like, oh, well, I string along a bunch of guys, you know, just get the attention from it.

And I think you're right to point out, like, look like this, men and women both if we wouldn't even just break it out of those categories, both have very real problems. Like you can look at you know, the female rate of mental disorders and suicide. All of these things are getting worse. But like at a more basic level, one of the things that I think is kind of interesting about gen Z is that many of the things that previous generations said they thought or said they would do.

We were actually kind of forced to do so, Like if you look at you know, boomers, what they and we're talking in aggregate, right, there's a huge generation. I know some of you were the good ones. So if you're listen this, you are one of the good ones. The point is, like you see this huge gap between stated and revealed preference. What people will say if you call them on the phone, like I guess that's how they do polling still and say like what do you

think about this? And how they actually live their life? You know, the patterns of marriage and family formation similar slightly decreased with generations after that, but for us, like the kind of like war between the sexes was it

still is just raging. So like look like I'm married, I met my wife, you know, young common religious community, right, so I was sort of able to opt out of this, but like that's not only incredibly unique, but like my friends didn't have that, Like my peers don't have that, and you know, going through college and we were dating, like I'd see my friends her friends going through this

and just getting chewed up by it. Like the guys, who are you know, like I probably shouldn't say this, but like a guy I know who's you know, got a six figure job, owns a house, and it was on like a good looking guy on like a five year cold streak, you know, of just like nothing, and

you're like, okay, look like, clearly this isn't working. And it's tough to talk to people who grew up in the before times because they'll give you this kind of pull yourself up by the bootstraps advice and it's just incredibly infuriating to listen to it because you're like, look, man like, the situation has changed so dramatically from when you know you were on the dating scene, so to speak, and it it's doubly difficult because like, if you're giving

someone advice, it's actually not horrible advice given the limitations, because look, man like, you or I can't fix this big problem, right, I can't do anything to solve the dating market. So within that limitation, being like okay, well, like what can you do? Can you improve how attractive you are, improve your prospects or whatever, even if it's difficult,

like within your power, that's probably your best bet. But at the same time, so often that is given in such a dismissive way of like, oh, you know, men are useless. Why won't you get off your phone? Why are you buying avocado toast in eight dollars? Lattes that it like completely blows up any possibility of like you know, how to actually move forward. And again when I say, like pull yourself up by your bootstraps is the best advice,

I mean, that's a great solution. But if you've got literally two cards to play, either do that or do nothing, it is technically better, but again, like it's still a it's a tough sell, and it's like I understand why people get so upset about it, but I'll throw it back to you, Tom No.

Or older men, especially when it comes to them giving advice to like their sons when it comes to dating, because unless you have like a specific set of circumstances, like kind of how you said you met your wife young, you guys were in a religious group together. I have a friend who has pretty much the same story. He met his wife when they're both fourteen at church. They only dated each other, they waited till marriage before they

had sex. They got married at like twenty three. I was the best man at the wedding, and you know, they don't have kids yet, but they're fixing to get a they're happy, they're in love. He's the only person I know out of all of my friends who was blessed enough to be in that circumstance. And he did follow all the advice that he should have done. He treated her respectfully, he never cheated on her, He was a man of God, all these different things, and you

know he's going to be blessed for that. They're going to have a beautiful family. But he's the only one I know, And I know other guys that met, you know, women in church and when they were younger, and the relationships just didn't work out. My first girlfriend and I actually got engaged to her when I was nineteen. That didn't work out, and I met her at church, and so after that I did kind of go through the meat grinder, Yeah, the tender, the bumble, the dating scene.

And it kind of sucks because this society, because of social media and the internet, Like this is a general that is experiencing the algorithm. Like you said, that's never happened throughout history, So the first generation to be raised on that, and it's it's completely alien to us, and so we're kind of responding to it in ways that's very unpredictable. Nobody can kind of figure out why certain

things are happening until like it's too late, essentially. And the problem with like older generations when they try to give you advice, like older men, is that they give you really good advice. It's just the time isn't the same. A lot of young men, if they follow the advice for dating that their dad gives them, they're just gonna get like screwed up, Like they're honestly gonna get like completely I'm trying not.

like something you have to do. You have to play by a different set of rules if you want to get some type of reaction from women, and it doesn't necessarily make you a good person. That's why you see like a lot of guys who they get a lot of girlfriends or they date a lot, they don't keep them, and those relationships don't last that long because relationships nowadays

for most people are just kind of for show. It's either just for sex, or it's because the girl wants a boyfriend because all of her friends have boyfriends, and that's why she has boyfriend. But as soon as that fleeting feeling of happiness goes away, the relationship is over essentially, And if she doesn't break up with you, she's probably just gonna cheat on you because she's already moved on to somebody else in her head, and vice versa. Guys

can do the same thing. So relationships are just kind of like it's honestly probably the biggest problem the West has in general. Like we can talk about the economy, you can talk about like political differences, but if we don't figure out relationships, we're not going to be able to save the country at all. Like it's just not going to be salvageable.

and and abortion is down. And it's like, well, cool, dude, but also like why like why is you know, divorced down? And it's like, well, to be honest, dude, no one's getting married, Like proportionally even to you know, just a

few generations ago. Like you see this even on a much more basic level, like the percentage of you know, Generation Z that hasn't even had sex, which look like, you know, I'm not gonna say that, like you know, mass you know, casual hedonic sex is like a great place for society to be, but it at least means that like people are interacting at like some basic level,

and it's really not the case. There have been a couple think pieces from you know kind of uh, you know, aging women talking about how you know, public spaces have become female, right, Like they go to a restaurant and

they say, I just see women together. And it's one of these things where it's like you're right to point out like the isolation of men, but also like in a weird way, men and women have become different political classes and like the same way that like you hear communists talk about like the you know, the workers at the bourgeoisie, where it's like they have they view themselves as a block with different interests. And you know, going

through school during COVID was just a mess. But you know, I remember I can't remember which election it was maybe it was I don't think this would have been twenty twenty. It was some you know, off your election or whatever.

But my wife doesn't vote, never voted, just doesn't care to, right, And she was, you know, surrounded by other women who were, you know, as many are quite progressive, and had a conversation where someone was like, I don't understand how women can't vote, Like you're not even really a woman if

you don't vote, the implication being vote Democrats. And I always thought that was kind of revealing because it is like, in the same way that like black means something literal, So like Clarence Thomas is biologically black, but he's not capital B black, right, the political identity because he isn't

you know, on side on certain issues. Just an offhand example, but you sort of see the same thing with women, where you know, women and men seem to or man seems to be kind of trending in the same direction. Has become like it has a dual meaning, and so there's like this political identity that goes along with it.

And I noticed this with you know, my buddies on social media apps that there are almost no men with like political signs or political slogans and they're dating app profiles, but there are a whole lot of women with them. And even if you don't count the direct ones where it's like, you know, proud Democrat or free Palestine or whatever.

Maybe we can work on that second one, but whatever, But like you see the other ones where it's like, you know, it'll be and I don't really understand how this technology works for fairly obvious reasons, but it'll be things like you can respond to a question, you know, like my ideal on man has blank, And one of the really common ones is you know, he's in therapy, which, let's be honest, we all know what that's code for, right.

It means that you are, you know, basically talking to a lip d art at the tune of one hundred

dollars of an hour until you become one. And I think that that to your point, like that's a really deep problem that like being a woman has become synonymous with progressive policies, and you mentioned it earlier talking about you know, female Republican influencers where it's like, you know, sure they may be you know, ruby red and conservative on the outside, but you scratch them and you reveal a feminist, and I think that that's like, that's a huge issue.

I'm not trying to embarrass myself, but most of the women I have dated are liberal and they are feminists. I'm not that at all. So for me, I just avoid or at least when I was dating certain women like that, I would avoid politics altogether. And a lot of them, like even the ones with the slogans and the stuff on their profile picture, they most of them don't actually believe it, but it is kind of like a social status, like they have to do it because

all their friends are doing it because they're social. Like they have to have a boyfriend because their friends have a boyfriend. They have to listen to this new song because all their friends are listening to this new song they have to. It's you know, it's for everything. But the ones that really do believe it, and I have dated some of those, it's like the most deranged stuff

you'll ever encounter. I had this one girl who was I was over at her place this one time, and she was trying to convince me about this book she was reading about how men had never actually built anything in society and it was always women. And it was the most I.

control it. I was just like, what the fuck are you talking about? What do you mean? Have you ever been to a city. Have you ever been inside any building ever? Have you used the toilet?

work with a lot of different types of people. And one of the guys I work with, he is a communist and he is a liberal dude. He's all that stuff that women say they want, and no girl wants to date him. In fact, he had a girlfriend at one point and he would cry to me all the time and he would say, oh, like, my relationship's not going over well, I'm talking to my therapists about it. It's like, I think I should talk to my girlfriend about this. And he's like, I got to express my

feelings more. And I told him, I told him this. I was like, look, when you do that stuff. I don't care how feminist your girlfriend is, when you do that stuff to her, it makes her less attracted to you. She doesn't want to sleep with you, she doesn't want to be around you. And he just would not believe it.

And then like two months after I had that conversation with him, he came to me and he said, hey, my girlfriend had a conversation about how when I cry and stuff in front of her, it makes her not want to touch me or be around me. And she told him that and then it made him cry even more. And I'm like, bro, you got to not listen to that advice. It's not good advice, all right, it's not gonna you need to just and yeah, she ended up, you know, breaking up with him, and it's been pretty

brutal for him ever since. But there is a like a different political alignment that men and women have, and it is a religious tribal thing for the women especially well, and it's one of those things.

But two, it's like that instinct to be like social enforcers in a different era, it's a very healthy thing, right, Like if you have you know, a relatively traditional society with you know, let's just say some semblance of normal human values. Right, this doesn't have to be Western, just any society whatsoever. Like having half of your population that is really interested in enforcing those values makes a ton

of sense. And in fact, you actually see this where in America up until the nineteen seventies, women were significantly

more conservative than men. It's actually a relatively recent thing, and it kind of makes sense, right, you know, obviously in the era you know, before contraception, even on something like like we'll just take like you know, sexual moores, women have a lot more at stake there, Right, If you live in an era without you know, welfare, without access to contraception, if you have a kid, that's your problem, not problem in that way, but you bear the consequence

of that where some guy can just hop on a train and never be seen again. So it makes sense. But the problem is right that the values of society, if you want to call them values, have been so pervert to the point where that healthy human instinct has been completely and totally perverted and twisted to enforce something that's completely messed up. And it's interesting. My buddy Darrel

Cooper Martyr made has this. He talks about this a lot, you know, talking about how all of these these cults rise up immediately in the wake of the hippie movement, and he's talking about this thing where you have people who grew up, you know, these early boomers in a very traditional society, you know, the kind of stereotypical nineteen fifties where you know, okay, look, we understand it. There are problems. That isn't like the peak of human civilization,

but comparatively, you know, it was more traditional. And he talks about how, like when that structure goes away, when all of a sudden you have people who are you know, kind of thrust into like the sexual marketplace, that becomes a much more real part of life. You have access to contraception, you know, obviously all the other kind of you know, social ills that started in the sixties. Well, you create a bunch of broken people, you create a

bunch of people who are looking for something. And so it's no surprise that you know, you have a bunch of cults, right, you have guys who are saying, I'll solve that problem. I'll give you that family unit. And I think you see a very similar thing with you know, extremely progressive politics. It's like, okay, well you know, and look like the position of you know, young women is

equally and enviable to young men. Sure they have a better chance in the job market, but like, really is being a corporate girl boss, wage slave a good life? Like no, not at all, Like that's a miserable way to live. But I think a big part of it is that that, in a very like synthetic, unhealthy way, those progressive politics become that sense of meaning. It's like, oh, here's what you should be doing with your life, here's

how you become a good person. And it like filters in and for people who don't have a lot going on, who you know, are unlikely to have families or you really have anything fulfilling going on, Like it makes sense and like the real difference is that, like, for very obvious reasons, that system of belief in what everyone call it like progressivism, woke, whatever, pick your term, like it

does not apply to young white men. And so you know, that same kind of social atomization that's affecting everyone is making women more progressive, and you know, not necessarily for men. I realized I threw a bunch at you there, but I've just been kind of thinking about this for a while.

new thing. It's gonna have some radical effect on people, especially the younger generations. And then you also have like propaganda coming from Hollywood and all these different institutions kind of at the time that are pushing feminism and all these different things. But you know, you were right like with a lot of women, for a majority of pretty much all society, they're usually really conservative. I think even during the women's rights movements, for the suffrage or whatever,

most women didn't even want the right to vote. It was mostly men that actually got that passed. It was because that wasn't normal, that wasn't like like a socially acceptable thing up until that point. So it's women are kind of like the ones that get pushed into accepting

those things. But at this point you have probably like the past like two or three generations where you do see feminism, liberalism, all these different things being pushed, and a part of it is that it was to you know, kind of lift up women while also at the same time lifting up minorities and minority men. And then when it came to white men, it was always kind of

about attacking them. And that's why you see with a lot of younger men in general, not even just white young men, you see a lot of them tend to be more conservative because it's it's a rejection of like the propaganda and the social engineering that has been compounding

the past couple generations. Because with young white men and gen z especially and even millennials, they get attacked for just being men, just being white, and then for non white young men, they're getting attacked for being masculine and for you know, questioning things, and it's just it's just kind of like it's also like the lack of purpose as well, Like a lot of young men are finding purpose in more traditional values, especially religion, and I think

gen Z as a whole is probably I keep seeing a statistic where it says they're becoming more religious than past generations, like younger men.

obviously the Ortho bros are growing up. All of my Orthodox friends are very kind, I'll leave it at that. Obviously the trad casts and then the more kind of stringent forms of Protestantism. But what you're seeing is another bifurcation where a lot of these kind of evangelical mega churches, the whole sneakers with preachers phenomenon like the stuff you see trad casts raging about on the internet. Those churches are heavily female and the traditional denominations are heavily male.

Obviously not all, but again, even in that trend, we see this same bifurcation male to female. But I interrupted Tom back to you.

so you know, thank God. But in that church, like in these megachurches, another thing you also see is with the men that are there, a lot of them are basically they're gay or they're closeted. And I'm not even trying to say that to just be offensive. I'm actually just being honest. So you have a lot of women and the church as a whole This is another thing.

It's not just conservatives that have covert feminism, but it's definitely the religious institutions, the megachurches, they're basically like feminist institutions.

They'll push a lot of questionable doctrine and they'll use the Bible as a way to push that, and it's it supports a lot of women's behavior, like modern women's behavior, because right now you have a problem with a lack of accountability for women, and you also have a problem where the state can kind of take care of women, and so that's why they don't need men as much.

But because of the trends of where things are going, men are becoming more traditional, going to actually more traditional churches, not following those those same prinds as women becoming more conservative, and not even just like the establishment conservative, they're becoming more dissident, right, you could say, because of that, eventually you will find I feel like more women following that path. And you see that even like online, you see a lot of women kind of repeating the same type of

rhetoric that you'd see. You see a lot of young women that are starting to like Nick Fuintes and like all these different people because that's like a trend. Like they're going to the churches, they're going to the the RNC conventions, and they're not finding their husband because all the men aren't going there anymore, you know, they're going

somewhere else. And it is kind of crazy that, like you have all these splits, and you have the the the differences with politics, and then now you have the differences with religion, and it's just constantly just splitting more and more. You have women that are going off becoming girl bosses, and then you have a lot of men that are just checking out of society and they're just like,

you know what, whatever. And it's very interesting. But it's definitely, in my opinion, probably the biggest problem our society has, and whether or not it can be fixed just by you know, waiting it out or through propaganda or you know whatever. Because propaganda works on women. That's the problem. Like, that's the reason why they are.

And there's this meme. But it's it's true. I mean, it's it's my relationship in many others, right, it's racist boyfriend, crunchy girlfriend, right, the girl who's into you know, like alternative health and all that. And so to your point about propaganda, I mean it's basically what where a lot of it starts. You know, you see the like you know that and I hate the term tried way for like six different reasons, but like that whole mean complex you know around you know, the kind of like purity,

and it starts often. It's funny because even like the progressive press realizes this, you know, they talk about how uh, you know natural like natural uh, cosmetics or a gateway to the alt right, And I realized, like that word

doesn't mean anything, but they're identifying something real. That the leap from the kind of like you know, hippie, you know the government's trying to poison you through the food or you know, some medical treatment or whatever to a more tradition view that's not a huge jump, really, and

you're seeing a lot of that again through propaganda. I think aditionally, one of the trends that I think has been kind of fun to watch is effectively like, look like all human politics is patronage, right, patron client you give me this for that? Like it? A lot of it comes down to that, and as like things get worse, right, as the economy gets worse, as you know AI and then legal immigration, which is what we were supposed to be talking about. We haven't even mentioned ninety five percent

of the way through the show. But as those trends continue, the bribes, the quality goes down, and all of a sudden, you know, you're not you know, you don't have this cool job where you can you know, sit on your

laptop in the pool as a project manager. That doesn't exist anymore, and so that bribe, right, that patronage being offered, that deal gets worse, and all of a sudden, right, you have an opening, right, Like that's an opportunity for propaganda to work, because you know the old line, like it's very difficult for a man or a woman in this case to notice something he's paid not to, right, he's bribed to stay kind of as you know Andrew

Tate would say in the matrix. But like when that capacity goes away, when there isn't all that surplus in the system to keep bribing people to have those kind of laptop jobs or you know, as the meme goes you know, jew daycare, right, if you don't have the money to keep that going like that, I think that

there's an interesting opening there. I don't know that's that's more speculative, and I think that that's a trend where at the kind of early end of but yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see how much of those values, which are synthetic, like they are pushed because you know, that's what's high status, that's what good people do. How much of that goes away when the money dries up. Just me kind of spitballing there.

very prideful, they will double down on things. So it's it's kind of crazy to see because this society, because of the propaganda towards women, it's pushed younger women, especially into certain areas that are very they're very radical, Like a big portion of women are getting into sex work and doing stuff like OnlyFans. I know a ton of girls that I grew up with, Like, it's actually insane. And I know this is anecdotal, but it's insane. How many women I know personally that I grew up with

that gotten to OnlyFans. It's actually it's crazy, and most of them still don't. They don't do it anymore because if any of them made money doing it, you know, they couldn't continuously make money because it's very competitive and it's a business, and they don't think of it like that when they get into it. But the pictures and the videos are online and they stay online forever, so they've kind of they put some mileage on essentially, and

because of that, it pushes them into different areas. They become radical feminists, they become radical liberals, They get into all these different weird beliefs and stuff. And so when the propaganda dies down, when all of that goes away, are they going to change? I feel like a lot of them will, because a lot of them do want those traditional families, they want kids. But how many are not? You know, how many are going to just continuously push all these things because they couldn't be wrong?

and uh, you know the d transitioners. My buddy Benjamin Boyce, he interviews a lot of people who de transition and you know, I don't I'm not going to pretend to listen to all of them, but if you listen to a couple of them, you'll pick up on really interesting things.

And one of the things that they talk about is that this immense feeling of buying and it's like leaving a cult where you know, if you go out, not only are you all of a sudden having to pay your self your insurance won't cover detransitioning or getting off of this. So that's an element of buy in. But also you're a trader. Everyone you have surrounded yourself with

thinks your scum of the earth. And especially when on the front end of that, you know, when you're going through your transition, you're encouraged to, you know, cut people out of your life to socially isolate yourself, like those people are bought in. And you see it in you know this this kid that shot Charlie Kirk, who's obviously involved in a bunch of weird gender stuff through his

boy or girlfriend if he was talking about this. But also right like that that kid who shot likes three Hondurans, you know, trying to take out an ice center, where it's like, yeah, it's basically like all of these And again, these are, let's be honest, young white men who are experiencing the same sort of radical, radicalizing forces we've been

talking about. But they were able to buy in to the progressive plantation at this at the cost of their bodies, and now they are more bought in than anyone else.

They're in these kind of like pressure cookers, and so like you basically have like sleeper cells all across America, and not just in liberal areas, because thanks to the wonders of the Internet and algorithms, you can have a kid in a three hundred person town in Alabama who you know, sees the same content as some blue haired barista from Brooklyn, and so like, dude, that's a huge problem. And when we're talking about buy in, like those are the most bought in people in the world. They are

physically dependent on you know, like the libtardich. Basically like their body stops working if they don't get their you know, government sponsored hormones, like they'll literally either die or you know, have very serious medical complications, let alone all the like the psychic brainwashing, and you know the social dynamics too. And I think that like if we're talking about like who can come back, right, who can normalize? To be honest, man, like, look like this is can the most sexist thing I

say on this? Women don't really have political opinions in the same way. You know, it's it's a different it's a different thing. And so like this is funny. I've said this before. It'll make her bad if she hears it, but like you know how like on your iPhone it'll show you like your memories or whatever. Now I found one from like twenty fifteen or she was a teenage or whatever, but it said something like, you know, don't try and get with me if you can't get with

my feminist agenda or whatever. And she's looking back on this, you know, ten years later, like just cringing out of her skin, so embarrassed, you know, married to a niche you know, right wing internet. And so the point is like that's largely salvageable, Like, Okay, whatever we can work with that, but like the true the guy who's you know, cut his dick off to be bunt, you know, who's

medically dependent on the state. It's like some of those guys will come back, and you know, there are de transitioners, but like that's basically like an army Okay, like a mentally unwell, physically frail one, but still like enough to you know, grab Grandpa's hunting rifle and like ventilate someone's gardener.

You know, they'll if they're willing enough to do whatever they believe in, they'll they'll gladly sacrifice their life to take anybody out of.

you know, this hypothetical person's fifty five years old. But like, you take a socially maladjusted loser, right, someone who is, you know, partially due to their own actions, partially due to the sort of systemic issues we've talked about, dropped

out of society. You dope them up on SSRI's exogenous hormones and feed like surround them with other mentally well freaks, and then you know, tell them this guy is literally going to genocide you, you know, like all the rhetoric around like transgenocide or whatever, like yeah, no shit, dude, Like this stuff is like this is gonna happen, And honestly, like I've been kind of surprised it hasn't happened. More like there's a specific example you're talking about. There's this

article in Wired magazine. I did a stream talking about it with my buddy Carl, and it's exactly that. Like it's this progressive magazine talking about these like oh they call them two A for all, but these like I think that yeah, yeah, And it's in like the most fawning language, you know, just gratuitously talking about how cool and glamorous these is this you know, a militia is. And you know, you got to understand the audience of Wired magazine is not the people who are in that,

but it's for like the normal progressives. Is kind of like this signaling of like, oh, this is a cool thing, this is glamorous, this is bashing the fash or whatever. However, realized that turns fifteen years out of date, you know what I mean? And like, dude, like you're already seeing this with this uh funny enough lesbian who got you know shot in uh you know in Minnesota where it's

like this is a powder keg. And like, I'm honestly surprised we've gotten relatively speaking, the minimal amount of political violence we've already have.

of them. They do that stuff for attention, especially from females, cause a lot of women nowadays, they'll see somebody doing that and they'll give them support, they'll give them attention, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, you're you're so strong, you're so beautiful, and it gives them attention that they'd never had because they are isolated, they are alone, they are put on all these drugs, and it's just it's just not going to lead to anything good or fruitful whatsoever.

And it's not normal, so it's never gonna be fully accepted by society. So it's always going to lead to something like this. But that's going to be a pretty big challenge. But I would also argue that, and yeah, like women, you know, like you said, they don't really have political beliefs. But that's why, you know, it's not really politics. It's like a religion to all these people. It is a tribe it is tribalism. It's almost as

if it is a race thing for them. They are on one side of the aisle, and you disagreeing with them, you're on the other. You're the enemy. You must be killed, you must be destroyed. At the very least, your ideology must be dominated, because your ideology, your beliefs, lead to death. And you know, it takes away women's rights, and it takes away truons, rites, and it suppresses liberty or whatever.

Like they have all these different examples, and so for a lot of women that are getting radicalized as well, Like you talked about the lesbian and Minnesota, I mean, women are getting pushed pretty far too. They might not be going through surgeries, but they're doing things that are pretty pretty bad. They're like I said, the sex work thing.

You have a lot of women that are getting into only fans, and if they're not doing only fans, they're being pressured into doing certain sex acts or doing things

like going to group stuff. I don't want to say the word on YouTube, but like you have a lot of women that get radicalized and pushed to do things that they probably would not have done if they weren't a programmed to do so, and so you're gonna have them mixed with the truons kind of double down even when the propaganda stops, like stops, because they're gonna still talk to each other and hang out with each other and isolate with each other, and they're just gonna keep

It's gonna be like a feedback loop. The propaganda doesn't stop, like they're gonna still feed into each other's delusions, and you will see more and more violence coming from this. And it's gonna be mostly coming from the men, of course, because men are the ones that are more often, you know, capable of violence. But it's it's very scary, man, because I'm somebody who likes to go out. I I like going out. I like going out with friends, I like going to concerts. I like going out and dancing. I'm

a very festive social person. But recently, you know, I've had to like think twice about going to certain places because it's like something could go down. There could be some crazy person there that could actually just just go off. There could be a bomb, there could be whatever. Like society in America, like it's it's getting very violent, and it's disturbing.

sort of flurry. You remember the the really bizarre instance of that Catholic church shooting right where the shooter was, you know, drawing pictures of demons and my whole symbology and all that.

for exactly that reason. I mean, you saw the you know, the Audrey Hill, one of the few female shooters shot up that Christian School. But like it's clear because even after like you know, Roe versus Wade was overturned right again, you know, conservative area, you know, conservative church. But like there were cars in the parking lot that got there, you know, their tires slashed and their mirrors broken off.

In the middle of the service. They're like, Okay, that's not like the biggest deal in the world, you know, like, Okay, you may have to file for insurance. That sucks, But like that's a sign of something, right that that place is a hard people are aware of that and have antipathy towards that, And yeah, man, like I don't think that's going anywhere. If anything, I think it's you know, heating up. And like I think that it's clear that

there is someone, whoever they is. You know, we can maybe talk about that later, you know, dig into it after the fact. But like there was an attempt to turn this woman who got you know, blasted in Minnesota into like, you know, a similar like George Floyd's situation, you know, an effort to like cynically use that to promote political violence. And again it's like, look like I don't obviously I don't have anything in common with those people,

but like political violence is bad for everyone. Like I don't want to live in a country where there's like the it's like an Italian years of lead, right, just like a running gun battle in the street, but at the same time, like the temperature is not decreasing. And so yeah, man, I think, like, to me, that's one

of the trends that I've been wanting. I mean, dude, even going back to the first Trump administration, when Antifa suddenly sprung into existence, it's like, this is not a good thing to have happened in society, you know, regardless of your political opinions.

something spiritual with this. When you see somebody who's a truon who's drawing pictures of themselves being a demon in their journal and talking about how they've wanted to end it all for a long time, and they decide, I'm gonna go to a school with a bunch of little kids and I'm gonna just start shooting them. There is something more. It's not the fact that they hate these people because these religious people don't like abortion or they don't accept my way of life or whatever. There is

something more. People are being compelled to do these things on some level. I know a lot of people are gonna disagree with me. A lot of people don't like talking about that. I get it, but it's just true, and you know, it's not stopping, and it's not going to stop. This is going to get worse, and unfortunately, I don't think we've seen even half as bad as it's probably gonna get. I think the future of this country, especially in regards to violence in general, it's just gonna

heat up more and more. And we just have to realize, as like men, whether younger men, older men, we're entering harder and harder times in this nation. You know, we're our life are you know, time in this on this earth is not going to be easy. We're going to be tested by a lot of different things, and this is one of them. And I truly do believe it is a spiritual aspect because people are being compelled by

so many different forces and they're abandoning God. And even in a lot of the churches, the churches themselves, these megachurches, these aren't real. What they're teaching people isn't real. It's fake. It's for show it. It is pushing political agendas, it is pushing, you know, heresy in a lot of ways. And I'm not going to comment on which church does what. That's not for us to talk about here. I guess today that could be a whole other conversation. But it

is true. And now you have people who are turning to religion and it's not even honestly real. It's hollow and it's fake. And you have people that need a purpose, they need a belonging, and you see these troons, you see these people they find that in these communities, and a lot of these communities are designed to groom people and to essentially radicalize them to become violent. That's something

people don't like talking about. But there's a lot of these groups all over the internet, and that's their whole goal is to just get people to become violent and to do things to other people or to themselves, and that's evil. Like there are people like the uh I'm not going to say the specific names because I don't want to talk about it, but there's certain groups where

that's their whole mo. They go on to mental health forums, they go on to sites like Roadblocks or you know, Fortnite, all these different games, and they look for kids that are struggling, befriend them, They get them onto discords and then they start you know, befriending them and all these different things, and then essentially they get the kids to send them stuff that they shouldn't send them, and then

they start exploiting them. And then they sometimes they get the kids to do violent things to either other people or to animals, or to even themselves. And the whole purpose, the whole reasoning behind these groups doing these things is simply because they're nihilistic and they just hate society and they hate people. There's something evil in that.

the guy that I did it with. Well one, I've been doing this longer series with my friend Thomas seven seven about occult violence in the US going back to the fifties and sixties. So people are interested, can go look that up. But also I did a show talking about the Order of nine angles. Oh yeah, is one of several instances. And that's a weird one because it's always difficult to say, like how much of this real, how much of this is edgy for attention stuff on

the internet, and people can debate that among yourselves. But like, nonetheless, there is a deliberate targeting and grooming operation to get kids in, get them to incriminate themselves, get them to basically buy into this and then do something horrible, which is the same mechanism that we see with the trand stuff, we see with the the sex work stuff or anything else. It's this idea of compromising yourself so that you're bought in. Right.

It's like it's the same thing as like, you know, fraternities do this where they like, you know, they make a bunch of guys do some minor crime together, you know, like steal a sign and that's harmless enough, right, it's mischief. But the idea is you're bonded in that, right, It's like you're you're blooded in. You know, you've made your bones. It's like your criminal organization would say, yeah, man, and I'm glad you brought up roadblocks, because look, I'm it's

never really a roblocks kid. I lived out in the middle of nowhere without Internet, so you know, I kind of I got to it late. But like that and many other platforms are very clearly facilitating this. And I mean Discord again, right, the Charlie Kirk shooting, you know, others have been basically planned and facilitated on Discord. And look, man, you've been around for long enough, same as I. You were aware that if you or I take our opinions to a certain degree and post certain symbols will be

nuked from orbit. Like ID accounts nuked on Discord for being in a server with the guy that got nuked, Like I didn't even say anything, but that stuff's fine.

And to your point about this being sort of like a religious war or war of belief, it just as we wrap this up like one of the things, I think that's kind of like you could almost look at it as like darkly comedic or like a you know, a silver lining to this cloud is like, well, everyone agrees, like even Jordan Peterson ten years ago agree that that young men are facing a crisis of meaning where it's like, okay, like you're like Alex Jones, is directionally true, you're fighting

satanic pedophiles, Like yeah, that's some meaning to your life, you know, like that's that's something to do, right, that's

more than just pure nihilism. And so there's a weird way in which it's almost like I wonder if that will you know, create the purpose that many young men need, not you know, just the like ultra edgelort stuff on the internet, but like the fact that like this is becoming a like very kind of choosing my words carefully here, but like a genuine like religious struggle between two mutually more than two but like mutually incompatible visions of what it is to be a country, what it is to

be a man, what is to be human? Even right if you look at the like crazy transhumanist stuff and like, I don't know, I think that, you know, the the turn to religion is in many ways of reaction to that. But Tom Man, we have gone over time. This has been a great conversation. So we mentioned obviously you have a YouTube channel, but what do you do on it and where else can people find you?

It's nothing crazy, no fancy editing. Every once in a while I'll do something, but that's pretty much it. I just have think pieces and I don't write scripts or anything. It's just kind of like my unfiltered thoughts and I just discuss, like different issues and problems, and I have it on YouTube as well as Rumble, and you can find me on YouTube and Rumble at just Tomfoe. I believe there's only one other person that has tomfo on YouTube and he stole my name and he makes music.

But you'll get me first when you look it up, and on Rumble it's just tomfo And then I'm on X. I'm pretty active on X as well, and that's under tomfo one and that's where you'll get the You just find the picture of the chicken and that's where I'll be at. But no, man, Like, I really am grateful that I got to come on here and have this conversation with you. I'm sorry we didn't get to talk about the two topic that we were like wanting to discuss, but this was very interesting. I feel like I feel

like we could definitely do this again. For sure.

that shares your name. My name, no one else has but my old profile picture which I just found.

some kid's resume. You're like, oh, well that sucks. I'm sorry, I will change it. The damage is done, I guess. But yeah, understandably he did not want the association, and I guess I don't blame him. Yeah, everyone should check out tomfo stuff. It's great of at linked in the description. As far as my stuff, the Jay Burdens Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

anywhere you listen to podcasts. If you want to support me because this is what I do, throw me a few bucks a month on Patreon, Substack or gum road. You get the episodes early and ad free. Look, I know the ads are annoying, but like I got a mortgage, man, I gotta make money somehow. And if you want to opt out of it, I think it's like twenty cents an episode. When you do the math, it's really not particularly expensive. So that's the way you can get out

of it. You can also check out our sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. I was talking to JD actually this morning. In addition to obviously like the group chat and the workout stuff where you can call me gay, which is really the main reason I think people use that group chat, you also get access to JD, who's very good at what he does, and he'll check up on you right Like he was just saying, like, hey, man, how is this working? Which you know, again, for what you pay

is is a pretty good deal. And JD's a friend and look, he supported me for years now he should support him again. Tom In, this was great. We'll have to have you back on sometime.