VCs are essentially ANRs in tech. Yeah. But it's the it's the exact same business model. It's just different players. VCs are record labels, early stage companies, or really just any companies they're investing in. Those are the artists. Yeah. And it it's the same model. You're going out and you're you're scouting. You're finding these deals. Welcome to The Investor, a podcast where I, Joel Palafinkel, your host, dives deep into the minds of the world's most influential institutional investors.
In each episode, we sit down with an investor to hear about their journeys and how global markets are driving capital allocation. So join us on this journey as we explore these insights. So we are live with Bruce Hamilton from MEC Ventures. So, Bruce is a new friend, and, you know, I aspire to be him in some instances because of his music background and and, his focus on culture. So, you know, just really privileged to to have you here and appreciate the friendship, Bruce.
And it's, it's really cool that you're, that you're connected to so many, successful people and, excited to hear about your stories. So let's just kick it off. Let's just run through your, your background, your career, you know, your influences and culture, and that's kinda and and tell us how that's kind of, you know, influenced your your pathway into investing as well. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. So I'll start. I'm Bruce Hamilton. I'm one of the cofounders and general partners at Neck Ventures.
We're an early stage venture capital firm investing in the future of pop culture. But really what we mean by that is just we're just investing in companies that consumer focused companies that affect how people live their personal and work lives. So, you know, for us, that means what if like, for us, that means it's really just, like, how people, like, interact with the world or how people work or how you consume sports so you consume content or you listen to music or connect with friends.
Like, all of it's connected in one way, and so we just wanna focus on that. But how I got to this path is I started my career in the music industry. So I started out doing social media at LabNation, then moved over to Sony Music where I was an A and R at the records. Worked with artists like Travis Scott, Fifth Harmony, Mary J. Blige. And then ran a talent management company called Samurai for a few years. We were managing artists, songwriters, and producers.
Then just decided to do a complete one eighty shift around 2016, 2017 and went into tech. Launched two startups. And then after successfully exiting my last one, I decided to well, really, was trying to figure out what the next phase of my career would be. And then after talking to a couple startups that wanted me to kind of join in like a marketing branding capacity, as a creative, I sat back and I was like, well, I really want to dive into like several of my passions.
I wanna do so many different things, but I just didn't wanna be bound to like one startup. And so a light bulb kinda clicked. It was like, oh, well, venture capital is kind of like the next evolution of your career. And but I wanted to come at, like, a very unique angle. I wanted to kinda bring my music industry experience into venture capital because I think the business model is exactly the same as like working at a label.
You are, you know, if you're an A and R record label, you're going out, you're finding talent, believing in that talent and their teams, investing in them, and helping them scale and become big artists. And I think that applies to venture capital where you're going out, you're finding early stage startups, believing in those teams, investing in them, and then once you, you know, have to invest in them, help them scale the best you can or just with your your strong suits.
So, yeah, but but going back to what I was previously saying, yeah, I just wanted to come from a a very unique lens and so I I realized in the space nobody was looking at investments from a pop culture perspective and then, for me, pop culture evolves technology and vice versa and so, we really want to come with that angle of just like, let's invest in companies that really just enhances the quality of life for people.
And so for us pop culture is means far more than just music, entertainment, and sports. Pop culture is really just how we live our everyday lives and how how can we connect people of all walks of life on one common level and so that's something that's very important to us at Mac is to be inclusive and making sure that everything that we invest in, really the main goal is to connect everyone just to create like a a brighter future.
Yeah. No. That's that's really helpful, and I think it's a unique lens that you're, coming from. I think the audience would also appreciate just more insight into the the your previous life too. You know? So your industry, you work with some, you know, really, really big names like Travis Scott. So, you know, are there any, you know, just learnings that you had working with working with such such successful artists and, and maybe just kind of observations on the industry, how it's evolved.
And then there's just I mean, there's some controversial things that that, like, I don't know if we're gonna get in trouble talking about, but I mean Okay. You know, there's just, you know, rumors about, like, you know, people being in, like, these secret societies and all that. And I, you know, I probably it's stuff that just pops up in my in my TikTok feed. But, you know, there's kinda like the whole, you know, community in Hollywood, and then there's also the entertainment community.
So any just kinda learnings working with those people and then just kinda maybe just insights into the industry that you've observed. I mean, one of the definitely the main things I learned in that industry is how to deal with creatives. Mhmm. Creatives have a very different mindset and sensibility than everyone else.
You know, obviously, creatives are sharing art from that they've created in their minds, in their hearts, and like, to put it out to the world, that, for them, it's the equivalent of like, showing your card, showing your heart to the world, like you're really sharing your art.
And so, you have, you kind of have to deal with them in a very different way, and it's, it takes some getting used to, especially if you're coming from a business perspective, and like one of the things about, you know, being an ANR is having that unique ability to because essentially, as an ANR, you are a liaison between the record label and the artist.
Mhmm. And so you kinda have to try both lines of dealing with the creative but also dealing with the label and kinda helping them satisfy what they need. And so you kinda have to find that middle ground. Yeah. And that was that a really cool learning for me is Yeah. I was gonna say I wanted to I wanted to, like, just call something out too.
So I guess for the audience, everybody probably already knows this, but for the audience members that don't like a and r, I believe stands for artist and repertoire. Right? Correct. Yeah. So I kinda see a parallel with being an a and r and maybe being a seed investor Cause you're kind of sourcing, aren't you kind of sourcing talent and say, hey, you know, this is going to be the next Michael Jackson or the next, you know, Tupac or whatever.
And that may be kind of similar to like a seed and, you know, seed company. Hey, it's going to be the next is going to be the next Uber. Like, did you kind of see some parallels, you know, later on when you got into investing? Like, wow, this is the same thing I have to source, you know, almost like a deal or a talent. It's exactly the same thing. Like, I tell people all the time. That's hilarious. That VCs are essentially ANRs of tech. Yeah. But it's the it's the exact same business model.
It's just different players. VCs are record labels. Early stage companies are really just any companies they're investing in. Those are the artists. Yeah. And it it's the same model. You're going out and you're you're scouting. You're finding these deals. Hopefully, you find a really good one. And then sometimes you find a really hot deal and then there's a bidding war. So everybody wants in and you might have to pay a little bit more to get in.
Or the founder just has to really like you and your skill set and really believe that you can really help them. Yeah. As an investor. Because founders are smart now. Founders are like, yeah. Like, we can get a check from almost anywhere, but now we wanna be very strategic about where we get checks from. Are we let's bring on if we're gonna allocate people on our cap table, we wanna make sure that they're gonna be useful outside of the check.
Mhmm. Yeah. So I I think it it made the space very competitive in a good way. Mhmm. And how you know, so how do the economics work in the labels? You know? So they you know, obviously, is there an equivalent of, a carry or are there I guess, how do how does the business model work, similarly or differently than venture capital? So, like, your Arista records or something. Right? And you found the next Michael Jackson.
You know, there's probably some type of distribution and, you know, so Justin Bieber sold his rights to to to a couple large Oh, yeah. He sold it to. But, like, yeah, he sold a hypnosis. Right? So, you know, I guess how how is that model being disrupted? And what are your comments around just seeing a lot of people selling the rights? I mean, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it myself because I think hypnosis is gonna be a massive company really soon.
Yeah. Because they're literally just buying the rights of everybody. Mhmm. It's very interesting to see, you know, for artists, it's like, it's because you're that money comes in quarterly or monthly, however, what the the interval is that they get this money. Mhmm. It's nice to just get like one large upfront check. Yeah. But then you kinda have to balance out like It's like, it's almost like playing the lottery, right?
You win the lottery and then they'll You gotta pay, you gotta get 50% to Uncle Sam. Yeah. They're like, you could take one lump sum now and have it all or you could we'll gradually get it over the course of forty years. And so Mhmm. I guess everyone who's selling now is like, hey, I don't I don't know tomorrow's promise. Let me just get this big check now. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I I would probably do the same thing.
I'll pay, know, for the Mark Cuban said this, I thought was just really timely advice. But, you know, first thing you do when you come into money, talk to your account, talk to your accountant first, and make sure you've, you know, thought about taxes. And then after all that's figured out, I would just pick up a lump sum. I don't I don't know what you would do. Would you do a lump sum? Or would you take like small payments for for forty years? Man, I mean, forty years is a long time.
I probably would just do the lump sum depending on how big it is. And I guess I'd do the math and see how much tax is going to come out of it. Yeah. But I would probably take the lump sum. I think most people would take the lump sum. I mean, four years is a very long time to, like, collect all that money. Yeah. You know, what are your just thoughts about the industry as a whole? Like, the the entertainment industry or, you know, what are some other innovations and models that you're seeing?
So I think a lot of people are, you know, leveraging streaming. I posted something, I think, last week about, you know, the creator operator, Right? So those are like two skills. If you if you're a creator first, you already have an audience. And then if you can be an operator and build a brand or build some type of company, we're seeing this already with, you know, with Kim Kardashian launching her private equity fund. And then a lot of these creators launching these new products.
They already have distribution. They already have customers and an engaged audience. But I don't know what your your thoughts are around, like, the downsides of that. Like, I mean, I wonder if sometimes those products are not a good fit for the audience. Right? Maybe it's just a flop. So I don't know if you just have any general comments in terms of how how the people are, you know, making use of content and community and and, being a creator.
Yeah. I mean, I think you're gonna see a lot of creator focused brands that come out. Mhmm. And that it's a very easy sell because the brands already have a built in audience. Yeah. So that they launch something that relates to them. That's the thing. You have to fig they have to figure out a product that relates to their personality that their fans are immediately gonna gravitate to. Yeah. Mhmm. That makes sense.
Like, you just can't like, if you are known for being an athlete, you can't then just go launch like a soda. Like, it just doesn't make sense for your brand. So I think if you just create something that works for your brand, you have a built in audience that works. The downside is you kind of live and die by your celebrity. So, if something happens, you know, say, you know, they attempt to cancel you, that brand goes to. And so that's the downside is kinda living and dying by a celebrity.
But I think you're gonna see a lot of creator center brands coming out in the near future. I think that's gonna be a big part of ecommerce going forward. And I've even seen it in the in the VC space now where celebrities are investing into brands and then kind of their leverage or their value add is then coming in to promote that brand. Mhmm. Yeah. So definitely seeing I've seen a lot. I've seen quite a few firms pop up that are are adding that.
Yeah. We're also aware of a lot of celebrities that are launching venture funds. So, you know, you know quite a bit of them and, you know, I guess what are your thoughts on that? You know, are they doing pretty well? I mean, I I've seen some celebrities, you they're smart. They're not active allocators, but they are smart as a business person and they do find talent. Right?
I think part of being a good CEO necessarily doesn't mean to be smart and prove to everybody that you're so sophisticated and great at doing stuff. If you're not an expert in it, you know, a good leader is able to find somebody to actually fill those shoes and like find somebody maybe that's a veteran in the VC space to kind of operate the fund from the day to day, you know, sourcing, screening, and then deployment and building a team around that. But, what do you think about that?
I guess the the celebrities kind of launching their own funds. Any observations if they're doing a good job? And and I guess if they if they've done a good job also just kind of finding the right talent to help them. Yeah, I think I love it actually. I love that celebrities are now turning around, making their money work for them and investing using an investment strategy that aligns with their their values and we've seen some success, some really big success.
For example, I'll use Nas and Queensbridge. Oh, yeah. They've had, I, from my, from my understanding, when I last checked, they've had 47 exits from one. Wow. And they've, you know, they've invested in Pluto, Pluto TV, and Ring, and Coinbase, and so they've had some massive exits, not just from one fund. And I think you're gonna see the same with Marcy Venture Partners. They're doing a lot of really good investing in thirty five Ventures, which is Kevin Durant's firm.
Yeah, you're just seeing a lot of really great investments coming from celebrities. And they're they're bringing on, like, really talented people. I've I've had the pleasure to connect and meet with some of the VCs on their teams. And they're some of the brightest people I know that Yeah. 100% understand the vision. I I really They have the they have the ability also to possibly poach, like, really great talent from some of the tier one funds, I'm assuming too.
I'm it's probably like, you know, really great approach too to kinda have the right team to really augment and elevate their brand and legacy as well. Exactly. Yeah. They're definitely bringing in the top talent because they're able to raise, you know, a large a large fund rather quickly. Rather well, I mean, larger than most in a quicker time. Mhmm. But yeah, I I really love what what's happening in that space right now.
Yeah, Andre, they're gonna trigger a lot of innovation and just because they're seeing things from, I think they're all investing from a pop culture perspective too and they're seeing it from a super macro level and so they're seeing what's about to happen and they probably know, you know, playing far more than the rest of us do and so they're able to kind of a a best ahead and get ahead of the curve. Yeah. No, I totally agree with that.
I think, you know, when you get to that level, you've built a huge network and you've got the right people to to help you deploy capital efficiently. So I think that's really helpful.
Maybe switching gears, we can talk about, you know, your, you know, a little deeper on kind of your beliefs in terms of the pop culture, like where that industry is heading and also just kind of what you look for in founders, maybe a couple common threads around just the the founders that you think are gonna be stellar entrepreneurs. Yeah. I mean, for us, that's for me personally, there's three things I look for in a founder.
But before I go into that, when you're doing early stage investing, I think most early stage VCs will tell you, you're investing more into the founder than you are the actual business or the business model. Yeah. Because the business model is so early And yeah, you can find some that are early that are that have some early traction. And we definitely have seen that. They have some early traction. But for the most part, you're really investing in the founder and that team.
And so I look for three things. One is the main thing is is it someone I can see myself working with for the next five to ten years. Because you're entering into a partnership. And so just from some of those early conversations, you realize fairly quickly like, okay, this is someone that it's gonna be fairly easy to work with, get critiques to, just have conversations with over the the course of the next couple years because you're you're literally entering into a partnership.
Number two is, can the founders in a team learn what they don't know? Things change all the time and so they need to kind of kinda have their pulse on what's happening, new ideas, and be able to, you know, just pick up pick up new ideas and integrate it into the business model. And the final thing, it's when it's very important is, can the team pivot if they need to? And most times, you'll you're gonna have to do some sort of pivot.
The industry changes or the business model that maybe you had in mind. Mhmm. Just doesn't find market fit. And so you have to do a pivot.
And sometimes you come across founders who like because it's, you know, at the end the day, start up so they're like their children, like their babies, they've been cultivating this for so long and so, and they're very much like, it's very much like an artist who has been working on an album for a long time, but the sound has shifted and no one's really focused on the sound, but they're they've spent so long grading it that they're like, well, this is my art and I wanna put it out.
And so the same thing goes with founders and just, you know, they spent so long building this product. And so they just need to be able to pivot if they need to to adopt to what's going on in the world. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a huge thing. Mean, one of the things that I take back with me, I was working in a big company for some time, you know, early when I was in corporate America, there was someone that was at that company for about twenty years.
And he said, look, you know, the in these twenty years, I probably changed my job, like, 30 times. And, you know, one of the biggest lessons is, you know, the people that can change very quickly, those are the ones that are gonna thrive, because you're gonna have to switch gears. Maybe the business that you're in is obsolete now. You know, so being able to kind of change and pivot and switch switch gears, I think, is super, super important.
I would say also just capital efficiency is gonna be really important, you know, in the next couple years too. Just kinda showcasing that you got good margins and you're able to, scale very quickly quickly with less. That always looks good to to to VCs as well. So. No, I agree. And I I tell people all the time, I'm like, reinvention is the key to life. Like, don't just peg yourself into this one role that you found yourself in.
Be open to reinventing yourself and in that way, you know, you can always experience something new and the same goes with, you know, your business like, feel free to reinvent it every now. I mean, look at, I mean, probably a butcher's name, Vimeo. They completely reinvented their business model, and it changed everything for them. Yeah. No. I totally agree.
Yeah. Vimeo really I think they hired I think they hired a new CEO, and then I think what they did was they moved into I forgot what their model was earlier, but they moved into, I think, kind of helping people share share videos like more on an enterprise level. I think that's kind of what they were doing. So you get like a little like a a like literally like a content creator tool where Mhmm.
You can create your own video where before they were focusing on essentially being a direct competitor to YouTube but just Yeah. Like high definition videos and they're like, okay, well, let's now give people the tools to create videos, and that, you know, that changed everything for Vimeo. Mhmm. What are you excited about? So, like, you know, what are some just technologies or just things that you're just really blown away about?
You know, are you are you really excited about gen like, AI and generative AI, in the creator culture space? Because I feel like that could transform content creation, you know, and it could also transform, art and and even culture. But, you know, that's been such a huge topic that's just been maybe played out for a little bit the last couple weeks to a month.
So I don't know if, like, you're excited about that or if there's just other things in the future that are are more, you know, more further away that you're fired up about. Yeah. I mean, think AI technology is cool, and I think it's gonna help people, especially with efficiency and people that aren't really good at copywriting or I've seen some platforms that are now like, hey, let's use AI to create decks or create prototypes of apps.
And I think it's gonna help in that space and help lower the the barrier of entry for creative so that they all don't have to be technically efficient to join the space. But I'm not like we're all hands on deck on AI because we literally just saw this last year with Web three where everyone was like, we're all hands on Web three, and now a lot of those people have shifted from Web three to AI. Actually, I've been telling people this. A big space that I've been looking at is gaming and esports.
Mhmm. I think that is still in its infancy stage. I think it's gonna get really massive really soon. Like, one of my big predictions is I think every major city will have its own Esports arena in the next five years. Yeah. This space is gonna be super massive. I think every major city will have, like, its own, like, dedicated, like, esports team. Mhmm. I just think that this space it's it's there's just so much room for innovation. So many people, like, really like getting into this space.
I think, yeah, I think esports is gonna be huge. So gaming is a very and I learned this from talking to talking to an institutional investor. Gaming is very rich in cash in general. So the margins, I think, are great. So a lot of those gaming conglomerates are are definitely, sitting on free cash flow. So that opens up opportunities to either reinvest or, you know, maybe, you know, manage their allocations better.
So, you know, maybe switching gears, talking about one step further instead of the the celebrities and the people and culture launching funds, how have they been thinking about generational wealth? I've been seeing like Tiffany Haddish talk about that. And, you know, that's something that I've been noticing in the last few years. A lot of artists really thinking about their legacy and generational wealth.
I also had Andrew Jarusz, who, you know, has worked with Kevin Hart, and he's he supported a lot of you know, Andrew from heartbeat. But, you know, a lot of these artists are not only just thinking about, you know, hey, how can I 10x my return or actually get a quick buck, but how can I maintain my legacy? A lot of them do have kids. So they're thinking about, you know, essentially forming a family office. You know, they have kids and and those kids are gonna be the g twos.
So how are they, you know, gonna pass those, those best practices and motivate the kids to also just carry that on? I had a really interesting discussion the last few weeks with a couple of family offices. And what what the common thread was is g one is really the original business person. That's the person that actually created the business and the actual, conglomerate. And then there's times where like G2, like the kids, they really screwed up this one of the money.
And then G3 sometimes like they have to do a reset and like the company had if they don't reset and reinvent the company, the company is going to go under. So you see some hunger in like g three. That's what I've observed. But I'd love to hear your perspective because you're tighter with that community. And you're probably hearing a lot more insights around how these people are thinking about like eventually, you know, asset allocation at a larger scale.
Yeah. And I think it all starts with them all creating VC firms right now. And, know, everyone's been talking for years about, you know, we got to create generational wealth. But I think now, everyone is kind of figured out investing and having your money work for you is really how you create generational wealth and so it starts with, you know, I think I would say this is we're now looking at G one of everyone's now starting the venture capital firms.
Yeah. And then G two is like what their kids do with the money that has been generated from that. And I would say probably G two will probably start like the family offices. But I wouldn't be shocked if like, you know, I I'm not sure if Jay Z has a family office, but I wouldn't be I wouldn't be surprised down the road. You'll hear a formal announcement that, you know, the Carters have a family office.
Yeah. But I think, I think we need more of that because family offices aren't the easiest to get a hold of and. Yeah. It's kind of, it's almost looked at as its own like exclusive community. So, I think you're gonna see, I think you're gonna see a lot of family offices start probably within the next like ten years or so. Yeah. From people that you may may not have seen it coming from. Mhmm. Yeah, I totally agree.
I really like that everyone's it's all it's all starting with the funds that are being created now. Success of these funds will create family offices a lot. Yeah, but this is still I mean in my mind I mean I I've obviously you know not been that plugged in into the community, but in my mind I I've seen I felt like this is kind of an emerging opportunity that's probably came up in the last maybe five to seven years. I don't know in the past what, you know, musicians did.
I think they just hired a financial advisor and I think some of them definitely got crushed with fees and and, hidden costs and and probably lost a lot of money. But I think would you agree that was the pathway before? Like, you know, these people would just put their money in with a man money manager. And then now it's kinda like with a lot of the resources and and, you know, as being in the information age, a lot of that information is available with advisors that you trust or word-of-mouth.
And you can, you know, I mean, a lot of us that started our own firms, you know, we found a lot of great content on Twitter and on Google as well. So I think do you think like, the dispersion of information, has helped a lot of people be empowered to kind of build their own firms and their own franchises versus kind of like, put our money with a with a financial manager? Yeah. 100%. I mean, information is power and that's why you're seeing all of these new firms pop up because Yeah.
The information is accessible. Like, I would say for me and Mac Mac Conwell, the information he was putting out there, we wouldn't have known how to start a fund without Mac doing his his 20 VC interview. Like, he literally gave me the blueprint. Mhmm. And that and that twenty minute podcast, he gave you the blueprint on how to start a fund. Yeah. And so if you're looking to start a fund, go listen to that podcast.
In twenty minutes, you'll know how to launch a fund from there courtesy of John Mac. Shout out to Mac by the way. He's such a great guy. But no, before how it would go is, you know, since the information wasn't there and so, it was kind of held tight. So, celebrities or musicians would just you rely on their business manager, their financial manager, my manager but what would end up happening unfortunately, the financial manager, business manager would just take advantage.
Yeah. They would either, you know. That's what I assume. Make really bad investments or they would just somehow embezzle the money for themselves and then the, you know, the celebrity artist is just kinda just laugh with, well, there's nothing I can do. The money is just lost. So now the information's out there. They don't rely on their business managers that much anymore. They're like, hey, let's launch a fund and really start investing in things ourselves.
So yeah, with more information coming and more people becoming more financially literate and understanding really how money works and how you can make it work for you, I think we're actually in the midst of seeing kind of a renaissance in terms of financial thinking. And that's why we're seeing all these funds. Yeah. Yeah, number one, I'm a huge fan of Mac. We've actually grown to be good friends. I listened to that episode as well. So that was a really, really good one.
And you know, I'm not sure if you've been following the recent news, but he's been really doing some really amazing movements in DC, you know, really trying to change the the laws of like having more investors in venture funds, you know, so I think a big thing too. And, you know, everybody has their opinion, you know, like, you know, what happened with Will Smith and everything.
But there's one there's one comment that, like, Will Smith said in, like, one of his, Instagram videos, which I thought was a little inspirational, which was around, you know, like him finally being happy when he helped other people and created some social impact. So I think that's a huge theme as well that ties into your, you know, your why and also your your mandate, you know, and your legacy as well. So like if you can create some type of social change.
So I love how like Mac is leaning in and really just he's actually changing history and transforming the the venture ecosystem to provide more access, you know, kind of through through himself, you know, sharing information, but also actually just going to Capitol Hill and changing the policies. I think that's kind of because that's going to have downstream positive impacts, right?
So if you got more money that's available to support fund managers, those fund managers can deploy money faster and and support more entrepreneurs, which is a benefit to America as well. Right? I mean, small, you know, our country is is built on small businesses that have grown. So what Will Smith said was he was, you know, obviously he had everything he wanted and obviously there was a lot of things that went down recently.
But, you know, he was just saying like, you know, I I felt happy for the first time when I was able to kinda help some people, you know, and and that's a reminder too. You know, you don't really know what everybody is going through behind the scenes. Right? So you and I, we're on a call right now. You know, we have this persona that we're carrying and, you know, we don't really know what's really going going on.
So I think definitely like the mental health piece and like, you know, community having a support system definitely helps, you know, because we we've seen a lot of celebrities that, again, you know, from an optics perspective, they had everything in the world. You know, we have, like, Anthony Bourdain. We had Robin Williams. I mean, you would think, man, like, these these people are set.
Like, Anthony Bourdain, he gets to go to, like, South India and, like, try, like, you know, food from these local joints. And and he, you know, seems like he's got a jet setting lifestyle, but, you know, you don't really know what's going on. So, you know, I I just wonder if you have any comments on that in terms of, like, just the mental health. It's a grind. You know? I mean, it's just a it's a tough business being an entrepreneur. There's loneliness.
And I think a lot of times, like, the only thing you have is really community and a support system. Yeah. I I mean, I tell people all the time, man, you never know what people are going through. Like, you they could have persona that everything's going right. And then internally, like, they're struggling. And, like like, for example, you know, it's not mental health. Look at Chadwick Boseman. Like, literally, no one knew. Yeah. What he was going through until that all happened.
Mhmm. And so you just kind of have to be, you have to be very sensitive and and just be be caring, understanding of people and and just kind of where they are and just don't assume from whatever you read on social media or or whatever image of them that you come up with your head because most likely you're probably wrong. Mhmm. And but I yeah. I mean, being an entrepreneur is such a it's it's a lonely road.
Yeah. And to go on that road, you gotta be prepared for some some hard times and some lonely moments. Mhmm. A lot of moments of doubts where you're like, I don't I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing.
I'm not sure if I can keep going but I I think it's very important to have a community of people and ideally, if you can have a community of people that are outside the industry that you work in, that's even better because then, it's not like in your free time, you're still working because you're talking to people about You're just talking to friends that just relate to you on like a very real level and so, yeah, if you can get a core group of friends around
you that you can just go and relax and, you know, vent to, and therapy helps too, you know, if you can afford to find a therapist, just having someone that you can just like, talk to because, you know, even friends like, you don't want to tarnish like whatever image that you think they have of you so you won't tell them everything. But like a therapist is like an unbiased party that you can kind of unleash it all to and they'll kind of help you work through it.
So I definitely suggest going to therapy and talking to someone. Yeah. Especially if you're an entrepreneur. I I actually have I'm kind of starting to think that, like, maybe VC firms should, like, have a therapist on staff. Mhmm. To talk to founders. I think that might be a new thing. I'm not sure if firms are doing it.
But I think it should be a new thing to have a therapist on staff or founders and their teams to talk to because, you know, building a company, it's not easy and and it's highly stressful. Yeah. No, I totally agree. I mean, I think just having, you know, even, you know, like you said, you know, having people outside the industry to give you a break, because even if you got a tribe, they're all like VCs, right?
Like, hey, this is my, this is my crew of emerging managers, they're all, they're all, you know, complaining about maybe their fund admin or, you know, talking about portfolio ops. So, you know, you're still to your point, or are you still working versus like, hey, you know what, like, get away and, you know, get involved in the music community. And, you know, for me, that's always kind of been my mental health thing, you know, just listening to some good music and and kind of just unplugging.
And I personally do that. So there's a there's a point where, like, I could probably still stay up and, like, work for, like, another hour, but I just can't. Like, I just really need to, like, disconnect, and I'll watch some, like, funny show or something that has nothing to do with work. I you know, for me, it's like 1PM. Like, sorry, 1AM. Like, after 1AM, I'm like, I just can't do any more work, and I'll just, like, watch TV and and fall asleep.
But, like, it's tough to, to really just kinda be, you know, just really, really focused on one thing for too long because I just everybody's different. Right? Some people can do it, but I have to have kinda, like, a little bit of a break and maybe just, maybe just meet people for drinks or something like that or or do something else. So. Yeah. I mean, I I spent years, you know, staying up to three or 4AM.
Yeah. Working because of this like, I have to do this and like, you actually start feeling guilty if, you know, if you have some free time and you're not using that free time. Mhmm. To work or build your company. Yeah. I think I've gotten to a much better space now of a life space. I'm like, no, I need some time to. Mhmm. Unwind because that's kind of where the creative magic happens for me. Yeah. Of just periods where I'm actually just doing something. And that's where the ideas come to me.
And then on like, well, two other things. One, I can relate to you heavy on the music front. Music is very important to me. I think I'm constantly listening to music. I would say I'm listening to music 90% of the day. And music kinda helps me get through stuff if I'm, like, even feeling down. Music typically just helps puts me in a much better mood. And then working out and like doing martial arts is like another big thing for me. It allows me to kind of work through my frustrations.
And I look at it as a way to like, I'm training myself to be better, I guess, physically and mentally. But that that has helped a lot too. Like whenever I'm I'm going through it or just having just some, you know, some issues where I'm feeling down or I'm frustrated. Typically, just going to the gym and working out and boxing and doing the Li Tai. Like, that that just helps a lot.
And so I encourage really anybody, especially founders, like, and it incorporates some it doesn't have to be martial arts or anything like that, but, like, incorporate some exercise into your daily regimen. I don't promise you, you'll feel 10 times better about this where things are going. Yeah. No. I totally agree. I mean, I also agree on the wandering perspective and the benefits of it.
So, like, my wife will tell me to go downstairs and get some snacks or pick up something, and it normally would take, like, five minutes, but I'll just start thinking about stuff and like walk around the grocery store for like thirty minutes.
But it helps sometimes because you start thinking about different ideas and and, some of the new things that I've done for some of the businesses I built, like they they probably came out from just me walking around kind of really thinking about stuff because during the day you've got your to do list and you've got meeting after meeting. So you're kind of really in the zone, you don't have time to really block off to really just have creativity.
And then I also just, you know, many people, know, some of the listeners here have have done this with me, but, like, at least once a week, I kinda have, a collaboration time box where, like I do meet people in person and, I'll block off an hour and just invest in that friendship and just try to build, a connection with somebody, whether it's a new friend or, you know, what's been really helpful with the the fund manager accelerator is, you know, you
you've known people from, like, maybe six months ago, and they're finally in New York, and they're like, hey, Joel, like, I'm in town. Like, do you want to meet? Like and that's what I'm doing with Rishi tomorrow, you know?
So you I think when you can kinda, like, spend that time with people and really invest in that relationship, that compounds versus, you know, there are there are people that are super and I I don't wanna sound like a typical VC, but like the transactional mindset where it's like, you know, what can I what can I get out of this? You know, I I'm more excited.
I really don't, you know, usually have anything to sell, but I'm just more excited to be like catching up with a good person and, and really seeing how they're doing and maybe joking around with them, you know? And I think that kind of vibe compounds, you know, much more outsized opportunities than just kind of like, hey, know, how can I sell something or hey, I'm I'm doing this thing and, you know, I'll give you this if you give me this?
So I, you know, I don't know about about your perspective on just like patterns that you've seen in relationship building, you know, maybe as an entrepreneur and then also just kind of as now being in the fund manager ecosystem, just observations on just connecting and friendships. Yeah. It's really dope, man. Like, the thing I love about the venture capital space compared to the music industry, entertainment industry is everyone is so open to like sharing resources and connecting.
Yeah. And it's very rare that people in this space are like, give me this. I'll connect you to this person if you give me this. Like, it's, I've rarely have ever come across that where in music, everybody holds everything to the chest and everyone's like, I'll do this. If you give me this or if you do this and you do a deal from this, I want my 20% cut. Like, you don't see any of that in venture. At least I haven't seen it in my experience. And so, everyone's just been so open to connecting.
One, and I think maybe it's it's definitely the the resources of money where just it's very scarce in music but in venture capital obviously as you've seen with all these funds and deals that are happening. Yeah. Money's pretty abundant. So no one's super pressed to like try to negotiate anything when just like, alright, here, I'll do this. I'm sure it'll come back to me, you know, down the road or say if I need a connection, you'll do it. And so that's what I love the most about this space.
But also in terms of network, I've met some, like, really amazing people. Like, I was actually just talking to my friend who works at TriNet. We're just playing Call of Duty together. And then, yeah, you meet people and you go out for drink. And you just build, like, a genuine, like, relationship. Yeah. That's not you're not really even talking about work. You're just bonding Mhmm. As humans that just happen to work together in the same space.
Mhmm. Yeah. And I think those that's big part of networking too. It's like Yeah. This is kinda go into it and then just go into it with just building a relationship. Don't go into it trying to sell something because people can see that a mile away. They can. Yeah. And I actually genuinely get excited to catch up with people too. Know, like, I'm actually looking forward to like, out with Rishi. Know, he emailed me. I'm like, yeah, man, let's hang out. Know, so it's just kind of like that.
That's also I think another indicator is if you're, you know, like when you see that person calling you, right? Like, are you smiling? Like, you're like, man, I can't. This person's calling me. I got to pick this this this phone up. And that's kind of like the magical part of like relationship building, you know, just kind of that excitement to to see what somebody else has been up to. I would say friendships to true friendships like you could and I have this.
There's some people that I've been spoken to in like four years. And we catch up like where we left off. There was a childhood friend. I mean, I'm telling you this guy, I knew him. We were like 10, 12 years old, and we played together when we were kids. And I literally reconnected with him about three months ago, and he sounds exactly the same. And like this guy is like a doc, like an ER doctor. He's got two kids. He's married.
So what I would assume he would be like this really mature, like, you know, maybe stuffy doctor, but he's like the 13 year old kid that like I knew, like he has like his like his I feel like sometimes too. It's interesting, like your conscience. I feel like for me, I'm still the same person I am when I was like 15 years old. I just know more. But like my being, I think is still the same. And I don't know if you feel that like like think about yourself when you were like 13, 14 years old.
Do you think like you're kind of like in there a person has changed? Oh, no. I think I'm still the same person. Like, I was just telling someone the other day. I was like, I feel like I'm still just a a big kid. My core hasn't changed. Think I just know more and obviously, we operate in like a professional setting. Yeah. But I think my core hasn't changed at all. It's I'm still just the the nonchalant chill guy who just, like, wants to have a good time and hang out with friends.
Nothing's really changed. Play video games. Like, nothing's changed from 15 to now. I mean, but but you do feel, you know, you do have this knowledge, right? This empowering knowledge that you didn't have. Right? There's just so many lessons in life, that you pick up. And, I would say even for me, you know, like, I I just like, I have, a lesson or two, like, that I that I just keep with me every year. You know?
Mean, one, like, one lesson for me is, you know, just there's some situations where, like, I just feel better just being a CEO and leading people versus, like, being a co like a partner. You know? Obviously, I'm married, so that's, like, the biggest partnership you can have, and that's worked. But, you know, I just kinda finally told myself, like, look, you know, it just it's better for me to kinda just run point on this and then find talent to people to help me.
We're like other people like they, you know, they work well with like a co founder and a partner and the and, you know, it's like two people kind of co leading stuff. So that's kind of like one personal lesson for me, especially, like, you know, in a you know, like, even, like, with a romantic relationship, would say, like, one takeaway is just kinda, like, really really be in tune with the other person, like, understand kinda, like, where they're coming from.
I think that's, like, definitely, like, something that I'm continuing to, like, build upon as a as a human being, you know, just relationships, like, really seek to understand other people. Like, you you alluded to that earlier, like, really see what's going on. Maybe if somebody's upset, you know, they may not be a mean person. You know? Maybe there was something that happened in their day, that kinda gives them, an off day. You know?
But I don't know if there's, like, a couple nuggets of, like, lessons that you've picked up, like, life's lessons maybe in 2022 that, like, you didn't you didn't know? It's not the only life lessons that I've learned. I yeah. I definitely from 2020, I definitely learned that, like, literally, like, and it goes back to our earlier conversation. Like, you don't know what people are going through and some people Yeah. I learned in 2020 that I I knew a lot of people that did not do well alone.
Yeah. Didn't do well, like, to themselves. I personally was one of those people that really enjoyed quarantine, but I know there was not a lot of people like me Yeah. Out into the world. Well, it doesn't impact your Call of Duty activities. Right? I mean, it's Yeah. Enhanced it. You had, like, more people playing at the same stream. So Yeah. It was actually a great time because I was able to connect. Yeah. It it allowed me to, like, really foster relationships that I felt were important to me.
And so it it actually got me back into the space of like regularly checking up on people and just asking how people's days are. And you'd be surprised like doing that is very important. And I think that's another part of like maintaining and fostering a relationship. It's more than just going to an event and meeting someone and getting their number to LinkedIn and then being like, okay, I know this person. Now, because we're connected on LinkedIn, I have their phone number.
But it's another thing to be able to just call or text them and then just check up on them. Don't ask for anything. It's like, yo, hey, I just I thought about you. See what your thoughts were on this or I'm gonna go to the showcase now. I got a plus one. You wanna come with me? Yeah. So, I think there's a skill to maintaining and fostering relationships. Mhmm. And I think it's just being open to connecting with people, being able to learn what people like, what people don't like.
Like, I think everyone is connected in some degree of commonality. And I feel like one of my superpowers is being able to connect with anybody who's finding a common ground with them some level. Sometimes, you might have to search hard for it but there is a common level with everybody where you guys can just relate and relate as human beings. And so. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I. Connect with people on my love of comic books. Yeah. Sometimes I'll connect people my love of music.
Sometimes I'll connect with my my love of like UFC. But there's there's there's a there's a common level. If you just open if you just everyone just open to having a conversation with each other. You can find a common ground and that that gets now, I'm like, I'm literally thinking about this as I'm talking. I'm like Yeah. That is the core basis of Mech of just, like, including everybody. There's something there that everyone you know, all together can unite on.
Yeah. I mean, one thing that has helped me, I would say also, and by the way, like, I launched Sutton Capital in the heat of the pandemic. So that was, like, the the prime, like, the biggest spike during the pandemic. That's like when I launched. And, you know, to your point, that really helped because a lot of people were seeking, I felt like some type of community.
And, you know, obviously, people were used to going to networking events and trying to, you know, scan the room and meet people, but that was gone. Right? So, so I think that definitely, like, was a catalyst for building community, and and we were virtual first starting out. But yeah, I mean, think just having that openness is important.
Then one more thing I will say, just a learning or just kind of like an observation, you know, because, you know, comparing me to the 15 year old Joel, you know, I'm more comfortable with like, who I am versus I think like as a kid, know, you we all have insecurities, you know, we don't know. You know, I came from like a strict Indian household where like, you know, I like my parents are like, compare me to like, like, you know, my my my friend that I was talking about, he's a doctor, right?
He was like, oh, look at a V and he's he's a doctor. He's really successful. So I stopped kind of like comparing myself with like other people that were at a certain status in life and I was a little more comfortable with like, you know, who I am and kind of my journey. So I think that would be the biggest kind of like like development I had as far as like just my being.
And then I think every year, you know, I don't really feel older, but I think it's really just you just kind of compound more knowledge. Right. So I'm curious, like all the stuff that I'd accumulate when I'm like 80 years old, you know, and just you can just imagine, right, There's just so many different things that you learn, like, you know, like there could be one year where you're not a fund manager.
Then just over that one year, it's like, wow, you know, you're like a completely different identity because now you're an asset allocator. And there's just so much wisdom that comes from from that that pivot or tweak, like you said, right, reinventing yourself. So I think it's kind of exciting to to see what's in the future, you know, what what's ahead as we evolve as people. So. Yeah. I definitely have to agree with you on, like, discovering yourself and who you are as a person.
Once I, like, really discovered who I was or what I like or and felt comfortable just being who I am, what I like. It changed everything for me. Yeah. It actually gives you almost like a sense of invincibility. Mhmm. Because you are you're you hit a point where you feel very comfortable in who you are and what you like. And you're not trying to fit in the mold of someone else that you may necessarily not want to be like but do you you're trying to fit in to a certain group of people.
And so once you hit that point where you feel you feel very comfortable then you start attracting new people around you that fit into your life instead of trying to like, I'm sure we've all experienced this where we've been trying to get people from outside circles to be our friends because they're the coolest person or whoever but then you actually become friends with them and you're like, I don't really want them in my life. It doesn't enhance my value of life.
Yeah. And so once you really figure out who you are as a person, you get very comfortable with who you are, then you start attracting the people into your life that matters. Mhmm. I totally agree. And then I think the other piece is, I mean, that that goes along with, just being selective with your time. Right?
I mean, time is the most valuable resource, so you don't really you know, I mean, if you think about it like a 6PM when your day is over, you got, like, a few hours left until it's maybe time to go to bed or, you know, you're you're starting the a new day over. So, you know, that time, that three or four hour time box, you know, hopefully, we're all we're all just kind of spending it selectively with the right people that are gonna, you know, enrich our life and and, and make life exciting.
So Exactly. You have to be okay with just saying no to stuff sometimes. I know. Yeah. That's a huge skill set too. Just saying no because a lot of times we wanna help people so much. You know, as humans, we wanna help people, but, you just can't you can't do everything at all at all times. You know, so you gotta say no. But, Bruce, this was amazing. I didn't expect this conversation to go this direction.
I thought we were just gonna talk about, you know, VC and culture and, you know, some trends and and some creators and music. But, you know, you may I felt like I'm in therapy right now. So appreciate you being my therapist for an hour. Start talking about my childhood. There was some stuff I, like, kinda came to realization about over this call. So this is this is really cool. But this is pop culture. It's like, it's more as I was saying before, it's more than just music and entertainment.
It's really just how we live our lives. And so sometimes, like, you have to go through these, like, life experiences to to get through that. Yeah. No. Absolutely. Well, hey, man. Thanks for being generous with your time. I know we're over a few minutes, but, appreciate you and, hope to catch up soon in person at some point. Oh, definitely. It's 100% happening. I look forward to it. Absolutely, man. We'll catch up, and, I'll tell I'll tell Rishi you said what's up. Yeah. Please do.
Tell him to hit me up. I'm I I I definitely gotta connect with him really soon. Yeah. Absolutely, man. Well, take care. Have a good one, and, see you soon, man. You too, brother. Take care. Bye.