Hello and welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. Today our guest is Scott Davis from Space Architectural Interiors. Scott is a good friend of mine and I've been friends with him for a while. One of the things that Scott does in his job is he sells architectural film, which I have discovered over the last few years and I absolutely love it and I think everyone should know about it. So welcome to the Interior Design Podcast, Scott.
Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so excited. I'm glad to be in the room just with you anyway. But yeah, it's just a topic that I really love and although you mentioned I sell it, that you've got to love what you sell, right? So it comes across. So yeah, really excited and please don't ask too many difficult questions. I think I'm going to ask you questions that you know about, to be honest. So Scott, tell us a little bit about the industry of architectural film.
Yeah, okay. I think I've been in, so I've been marketing this for and selling it for nine years now. And I think what I need to explain first, what it is, is because I've become so blasé with it and the people that use this all the time have become blasé about people understanding actually what it is. Because you say architectural film, people say, oh great, I know what that is, but it's like, what the hell is architectural film? Is it a film? What are we talking about?
Because people think it's like sticky back plastic. It's like, no, there's no way that's going to be durable enough whenever I say it to anyone, the client. And this was the answer I used to get, you know, like nine years ago. And so basically, for those out there that aren't aware of this, it's a self-adhesive PVC film, which is designed to stick to many surfaces like for mica, anything with a smooth surface to it. And it will be
designed to stay there for 10 years. And it can be folded on, so from a flat surface to a folded corner, and then with a piece of heat, it can then conform around difficult 3D shapes. And therefore transforming something which was old and tired into something which is nice and pretty and on trend. So that basically kind of gets people up to speed. But where the beauty of this is, I would always show people a kind of before and an after. And
everyone goes, oh yeah, great, it's gone from this painted surface to say a walnut. But the beauty and the sexy piece of this is the journey in between. And when I remember doing this nine years ago, I talked to an architect or interior designer, and I would stick it onto an old tatty plier for paint door. And I'd put walnut onto it and I'd wrap it around in there, sit in there, watch me do it, and I'd fold it around the corner, cut it off,
and then present them with a showpiece door. And it would be like, wow, what kind of voodoo are you selling here? Because it was such a massive, and it's that little journey in between that I think I've got to go back to roots to keep showing everyone every time. Because I think I've spoken to so many people over the last nine years, but we've probably only touched three or five percent of the people that need to hear about this across
the board. So we do have to re-educate people again every time, because they won't know anything about it. How has architectural film been received? What's the journey? Yeah, so really good question. Because in the initial stages, when we, you know, something which is self adhesive, we will all, you mentioned earlier, I think sticky back plastic. And in all tenses and purposes, sticky back plastic is a really good starting point of what this
is. So when I used to speak to architects and interior designers and end users nine years ago, they would say, right, I've got a bar and I've got Carrara marble on the front and on the top and down the sides. And I spent an absolute fortune on that. And I can use your one because it really matches in nice and it feels just like the same thing.
And it could really, but I want it on the back fitting where no one can touch it. Because I don't people, my clients, touching it saying why are they touching sticky back plastic? And it's like, and it might not last and it might wear off or, you know, because their experiences are sticky back plastic or printed vinyls, which haven't, you know, maybe had been fit for purpose in those durable locations. Two years later, I would have tried to say
previously, well, no, you can use it in these areas. No, I'd rather not just test it. And then two years later, they come back and say, you know, I've got a brilliant idea. Let's put it on the front of the bar over the over the painted ply that I had before and turn into Carrara marble, save my client loads of money, because the client actually doesn't know the difference. And the amount of time they touch it and go against it, it actually
is that perceived quality just good enough for that sector. And the cost implications are amazing. So the way that it's kind of been received with architects and interior designers and people who want to specify this is it's given them opportunities because you may have a client who has well, actually, I'll put it back to yourself actually, Haley. If you had a client who has multiple locations, and they wanted to create something which
is quite unique, what would be a difficulty that you'd have from that? So if they had multiple locations, and they wanted to make each one unique, depends what it is. Yeah, I mean, are you talking about a hotel room? Yeah, okay. Yes. So really, where I was going with is that, you know, with architectural film, there's many, you know, there's there's several manufacturers, I will go into what kind of makes it successful in the in the
area in the marketplaces. But you've got a book of 500 designs. And the beauty of where clients have seen this and said, you know, what's really amazing is that I want to be able to make every single location they've got to have a brand identity to it. But I want them to know they're in a different location. And what's great is, is that they might say, do you know what, this one, we're going to have walnut and a solid color. This one, we
might I want to have a metal and a light color timber or a marble effect. But it can all come from one book and the substrate can remain the same. But the the flexibility and finishes and experience can alter so much. So it gives a lot of flexibility. Okay. That's what I was really kind of using. But the what's really made me understand from my experience over the years is there's three key things that make an architectural film successful. Because
there are there's, there's several manufacturers out there. Most of them are based over in, you know, in Southeast Asia, there's some in Europe. And most of them are manufacturers. And then you do have some others which are brands which have multiple manufacturers with different manufacturers in there making up their range. But what's the three key points to make this successful is one is consistency. Two is commercial viability. And three is
availability. And I've realized that without each one of those one of those being missing, it actually can fail. So if you have consistency, commercial viability and availability and availability, yeah. So if I were to qualify on consistency, so consistency could be consistency on the weights manufactured, the consistency on the adhesion strengths, consistency on the certification of performance, and also its performance as it is. So on that's the
consistency of how it's made. So if you have a product that is continuing to be the same every time the installer will understand how he installs it, the the specifier will know the durability of it and the and the confidence to give it to the client and sell it on. And the performance is they won't be specifying something which doesn't actually comply with what they thought it did. And then you have your commercial viability. So it could have
all of those things I said about the consistency. But if it's really expensive, and by the time an installer or a specifier puts their profits and attendance on and it becomes more expensive than actually replacing what they were trying to replace, what's the point? So it needs to be at the right price point consistently. And then the other one is availability. So
again, you could have commercial viability, commercial viability and consistency. But if it's not available in the right in the right time, and the right passengers you want, then actually we've lost. So again, you take any one of those elements. I think you can apply that to an awful lot of interior finished products. Yeah, yeah, like fabrics and wallpapers and stuff as well. Because if you haven't got all those three
things, you can't make it work. Well, it must be really frustrating. You do have this plethora of designs. Now everyone tags in you say, sell my product, sell my product, put my products in, specify it. And then those must be big things. What about the leading time? And what
about the availability? Cost? Oh, and it's incredibly frustrating when you do a design and you kind of set your heart on something and then the client doesn't actually order it all until the last minute and then everything's out of stock and you have to re-specify it and then it's like, oh, so yeah, yeah, joys of being an interior designer. Yeah. So what now we've established, obviously, what's the successful recipe for the right architectural
film. Now, when we look at why would someone even consider it in the first place? So in our landscape at the moment, there's a demand for they want something which is fresh and
that might suit well-being. But most of the time it's around cost and speed. And also, I think the end user through social media, through being able to search their own, do their own research, the end user, whether it's the consumer or the client, they've become so much more savvy out there now where they're saying, well, why do I need to rip
out everything in my rooms? Why do I need to take down all of my doors? Why do I have to take out my reception counter, put it into and visibly see it going into skips outside? And that's not just the client, that's the end user, the consumer seeing all this and they're thinking this doesn't resonate to how I want to go forward. I want to see something
which have a socially responsible experience, someone I can support and have faith in. So if you can have furniture in a hotel room, so if you have the furniture in a hotel room which might be fitted wardrobes, it might be a headboard, it might be some units beside them, it could be the vanity tops in the ensuite, the doors. All of these are really good substrates, but let's face it, if they're in a particular finish, it just might not resonate with that demographic. So why...
All are out of date. All are just out of date, I was just trying to be kind of polite. I can't even spell demographic
in my sense. So what you do is you then choose what your palette is, hopefully there would be a variety of those in that range and then you could just then, because it's designed to go onto a timber substrate, whether it's a joinery item, designed to go onto a door around a vanity top and in wet areas, most architectural films are, when I said about performance and consistency, is that they will perform in those humid areas, relative
humidity of about 90%, something like that. So I guess on that note, 90% relative humidity, the way I always relate this back is most swimming pools are 75% relative humidity. So it's actually a really high performance product. So putting it onto a vanity top, sealing around the edges, it's given a safe... Just to put it into context, so relative humidity, what you're talking about, are you talking about the air in a swimming pool environment? Yeah. Okay, cool.
Yeah. And then you do have your spillages, but as long as you've sealed the edges and it's in one piece of material, it's a PVC, so it's relatively impervious to water. And that kind of actually, that takes me onto one that I should have said earlier, the great thing about having something which is an architectural film that is transferable across whether it's going to be a really... Because if it's meant to look like a timber, it will look like a
timber, feel like a timber, and for all intents and purposes, be a timber to the eye. But the beautiful thing is it will behave like a PVC, so you can wash it down. So with the actual finishes, the key thing with an architectural film is that if it's meant to look like something,
it's got to replicate it the best way it can. So if it's a timber, it will be a timber with a believable grain, the texture will synchronise with the print, so that in all intents and purposes, you'll be looking at a veneer, but it will then behave like a vinyl because you can then wash it and you can spill water onto it and not worry about any stains percolating
into it. Because when it gets manufactured, most situations with the higher-end products is that it will go through the printing section, then it will have the texture and it will have a protective film that gets fused at manufacturing stage. And that protective film is the key for its durability. So it will be designed to either transform something short-term or it will be there for a 10-year life expectancy. So it's down to the end user how they do it, but it is very crucial to detail.
I think one of the things that I love about architectural film is that it is the sustainability aspect of it. And I think I may be jumping forward a bit, but I really love the idea of, and I have specified this on hotels, so I really love the idea of actually, there's a whole load of furniture there that's really worn out and dated. The hotel needs a refurb,
they haven't got a lot of money. So for me, I'm like, just use architectural film. Even if they've got the money, it actually can completely change the whole, you know, new carpet, bit of decoration, architectural film. You don't need new furniture, you just need... And also for a hotel, it stops the roof being out of use. As long, I think you've probably taught me this. You know what I did? I hypnotised you. In my eyes, around my eyes, in my eyes. No, absolutely
right. So that's... When we talk about, you know, what are the benefits of this product, I will use stories to tell how this product is used. And I think stories are... And these aren't made up stories, by the way. It's actually factual stories. So when you mention about hotels, you know, we have a story of a hotel chain, and they will have 55 hotels within their chain, and each hotel may have 250 rooms. And they were refurbishing, say, spending
£25,000 refurbishing each room, and included in that was £7,000 on their bathrooms. So rather than doing what they actually were going to do, is rip them all out. And the occupancy is the key thing here, is one, there's two cost applications. One is the cost of doing it. So they're going to spend £7,000 ripping the old en suite out and putting a new one in. Then by us going into wrap it, they wrapped just three areas, which was just
good enough. So it's that kind of balance of just good enough, because let's face it, when we go into a hotel, we walk in, and we go, right, I'm excited to go into my hotel room. I've got lots of little ambient lighting everywhere. But you open the en suite door and you look into the bathroom, and you want to be either wowed, and you've got a split second and you all you do is you look at what's the workshop like? What's the shower like?
And if it's all white, it's all white laminate. And you look and go, oh, and close it, it's that really disappointing. Yeah. On this occasion, it was a white and it was really, oh, so what we did was we used concrete on the vanity top, the back of the door to blend in with the vanity top and the bath panel. And it was such a lovely contrast of a grey kind of industrial finish, a modern finish, that when you open the door, you went, wow, that's
nice. And close door because let's face it, that's what you do. You walk in, you wash your teeth, you have a shower, but you had the wow factor just long enough. So your question was disownability. But just to qualify, I said £7,000 earlier, that en suite was done for £500. So all of a sudden, we do the numbers and we say £500 against £7,000, but then occupancy, occupancy is the key thing. These were done whilst the hotel rooms were being
changed for laundry. So there's no lost occupancy. So every hotel wants to run at 95 or 100% occupancy. If you're going for a refurb and you're closing down rooms at a time, that's where they're caught. They can never get that money back. They can put money up on the price on the room, but that's it, it's gone. So occupancy was the key thing. No, nothing lost. But sustainability. So I mentioned right at the beginning, this is a self adhesive PVC.
So all of a sudden, I was just mentioning the Antichrist PVC out there and I'm not hiding behind it. It's PVC. Do you know what? It's here. It's what we have as a technology. We are, you know, not just us, but everyone in the industry are trying to change it the best we can because there are, you know, routes to market that we try to move, would like to move away from PVC where we can. But let's look at the larger picture. It's not PVC against
non PVC. It's PVC against landfill and, and, and embodied carbon and things like that. So if you have PVC against what's your alternative? We rip out the old bathroom. It goes into a skip and maybe get recycled or go to landfill. We also generate new material and take it back into that building and put it back in again. And we've got exactly the same functioning on suite. It just looks prettier. So once someone spent more money, we've now damaged
the environment because we've actually put new stuff into it. But what we do have at the moment as an alternative is let's just wrap what's there. Let's, let's give into it looking prettier. But our service end users, the consumer will really appreciate that story that you've now allowed that under the LCA, the life cycle of that product, stay in circulation for five, seven, 10 years depends on, you know, most hotels usually do a three to five
year cycle. So if you can keep it in circulation for another five years, one that your consumers happy they've got exactly what they wanted. You're happy because you've just saved yourself 80% in your cost. And likewise, in seven years time, 10 years time, we may have an alternative solution to PVC at the moment, let's use the technologies that we have. So and likewise, us as a company, you know, a space, if you don't mind me saying, we're carbon neutral.
So anything we deliver on the architectural film is actually a carbon neutral journey. So we're scope one, two and three. So helping most of our clients that we deal with, whether they're retail, retailers or large conglomerates, they're trying to go for past 2060. And we're helping them achieve their net carbon by us being carbon neutral. So it's a sustainable
route. So hopefully, this is why I love it so much because a lot of sustainable products even though there's obviously a balance with PVC, but a lot of sustainable products are do make it more expensive. Yeah. And I think the architectural film is one of the one things in design that you can use that is actually doing the opposite. It makes it a lot cheaper
to refer. And everyone's got a budget, you know, if you can save money in one place, you can spend it on something else and make that better, you know, so if you can, I think hotel rooms are prime and like bedrooms and furniture. I mean, I use it on a worktop in one of my rental properties. Oh, wow. And it's doing really well. I've been in there on like, on the top and it's fine. It's just like a normal worktop. It's amazing. So yeah,
I can't fault it at all. And what you've done there is when you said about the worktop, but likewise, you don't, what I try to help people understand is if you choose, okay, I'm using architectural film, it doesn't mean that you've got to do everything in architectural film. And if you can't do everything in architectural film, so say for example, you know, there was some sofas and there's some bits and there's some other items that she had molding suit
that didn't actually work. I go, Oh, I can't wrap that in architectural film. I'm going to show that and I go with the alternative by all new. Just do where you can use architectural film, use architectural film and where you can't use the other materials. It's a mix it up. Absolutely. You know, even down to in a way there was some beauty rooms that were done for a hotel chain and there they had worktops which are on three different
heights and they were done in timber. So they had timber which was jointed together and they had joints and they had silicon along those joints. And then they said, well, can we wrap these? Because they were just kept getting painted and they started getting sticky and everything like that. Horrendous. But they wanted their own in paint. So they were, they said, can we have something in like a really nice stone or concrete or a marble
to make it look a little bit more populous? So yes, we can. And the installer, I remember the installer actually saying, well, I won't be able to do it in one piece. I said, well, use a bit of silicon on the gaps like everyone else would. If it is a joinery top, well, you do it where you can, but just use other technologies, other materials out there that can complement using architectural film. You don't have to do everything in one wrap, in
one piece of material to make it work. So in terms of application, that brings us nicely along to application. So in terms of applications, you said to me earlier that installers are called pips. Yeah. And I was like, save it for the podcast. What are you going to say? I've got an amazing colleague, Tiff. I would be totally lost without her. She's so technical. She's so organized. She is amazing. And she does like to come up with acronyms and name
things. It's in her little boxes of trying to organize things. And I'm so happy because it works. So yeah, pip, preferred installer partners. And so being the distributor, when I go out and try to find work, because the way I look at this is the more I kind of pimp other people out. So the busier I make someone, the more they're going to buy from me. And if they're a pip, the more law they're going to become. And we work harmoniously together.
And the future is great. And you've watched a lot of companies really grow, haven't you? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, the exponential growth that can be given into this sector, you might, you know, I might work with someone that has the correct business acumen. So just going back onto pips as well, sorry. So there's everyone wants to go to
a certain size, and everyone has different capabilities and certain dreams. So when we get hold of someone, and they become a pip, and we put them forward in front of a client, it's not because their fitting skills are great. It is. Their fitting skills are great, but they also have really good customer facing skills. They'll have politeness, they know how to behave. They know they have the correct business acumen to say their finances are
in place, their health and safety are in place. And they understand the terminology and the and also the details that's required to understand for what that client's looking for. And so we fit them quite nicely into those boxes. But there's been some situations where you may have a company that it could be a man or lady or a person in a van. And they've been learning the skill, had a previous company before and they want to scale up the business,
but they're just struggling to find that route to market. So because I'm out there talking to the clients, I will then find people and I'll be able to get them and say, well, that's he's got the right acumen, the credentials to do this. So let's introduce them to the client. Before they know it, they've gone from earning, I don't know, there might be
a lifestyle £50,000 a year just paying their bills. And all of a sudden they're employing people and they're now got to turn over £500,000, £700,000 because I've introduced them to a new world of architect or it might be an inducer. Usually it's a hotel chain or it could be a leisure centre, it could be an educational facility. And they do the job right because of the reason I chose them because the client feels confident with them, they
did a good job, the right price and they grow and they just keep getting fed and fed. So the growth of this sector for installers coming into this area is really interesting because you also get some that say, do you know what, I'm actually quite happy just taking on work that I can do myself, which I really appreciate. That openness because I know everyone wants to be a billionaire, but not everyone knows how to get there or have a commitment to it.
So it's nice that there's ceilings that people have and the sooner they understand those and the guys that have just the man in the van, I've got to come up with some sort of wording, I have to talk to Tiff, what's the man in the van, what's the one with just a
person in the car? I don't know, it should be more PC. But they'll be quite happy to take on one or two clients and just roll with that and they'll just keep that for the rest of the year and I'll leave them alone, just feed them and they keep buying material from me. But the installation route, I said distribution, we've got the distribution right, there's three key things earlier about the price, the availability and consistency. I can now
supply that material into the marketplace. We now have an installer, but we make sure they're at a stage where to make architectural last five, 10 years, it's all in the detail. You could have the best products in the world, the best client, the best price, the best availability, but if it's installed incorrectly, it's going to fail. So you need the partners, isn't it? Absolutely, it's all in the detail. And when you mentioned about hotel rooms and furniture,
if you're replicating timber, then replicate timber. If you're doing the door frame and you've got a plastic door frame and that has a mitre and it was just a moulded mitre to it, what you would do is you would follow the direction like you would as if you use mitre in two pieces of timber and turn that painted plastic door frame into, if you was using oak, you would do your mitre and it would look like an oak architrave. Just replicate
what nature gave you and do exactly what I said. If the texture is meant to be a timber, then honour it with the jewellery items as well. We had, there's a story, I've got loads of stories, but this story is a really high end hotel in London. I won't mention any names. So really high end location, high end chain and they had 400 rooms that had been refurbished. They did 150 of them hard weaver, ripping them out, taking the carpets, using loads of wall protection. They commandeered a lift
with all protection on it. They were wheelie bins up and down with loads of timber. I specified you on your lift. Did you? Yeah, we were talking about lifts. So yeah, the impact and visibility of them on that in the area was massive because they were literally physically taking the items
out and they could see it happening. The other 250 rooms they decided to wrap and these went from a black French polished really lovely piece of jewellery which was fitted wall drives inside and out, dressing tables, side cabinets, TV cabinets and doors and they were wrapped into a very dark wood grain.
Recently that hotel has been sold and bought by another chain and I said, I sit in front of this new client and I said, oh, to give you an example of the jewellery, this is what it's like and I showed him some amazing jewellery items and I said, this was this and it was black before and they said, I recognise this and I said which hotel it was and he said, that's my hotel, I just bought this hotel. I said, well, you have 250 rooms which are
already wrapped and he said, that's wrapped. He had been in these rooms and he said how luxurious it was because it had been refurbished. So, you know, even people in the trade, it's the detail that convinces people it doesn't have to look like it's been wrapped. People won't know. So, yeah, it's a lovely story. I have now pressed record. It needs to be red. If it's not red, can you tell me? Okay. Oh, so you were just talking about your big marbles and your big wood.
Yeah, yeah. So, because... Oh, I forgot to press record. Well, what's really funny, so sometimes you'll be doing a CPD presentation or lunch and learn to a group of specifiers and because obviously this is made in South Korea and there's some translation in this and obviously they would say things but without knowing it, they'll
put a bit of a sexual innuendo in it. So, I'll be actually literally up there to say, apparently, I have big wood and big marbles and that's the description alongside premium wood. But yeah, what the big represents is, and I think this is really quite crucial to when you start looking at scalability of pattern, the big wood and big marbles are a 1.5... Sorry. You can't say that when I'm shooting, but it's getting you out.
Yeah, they've got a 1.5 passamipede. So, if you've got a beautiful veined Herrera marble or a timber that's got a 1.5 passamipede, it just all of a sudden becomes a really believable substrate, especially if you put natural quirks and breaks into those slabs. So, it looks like a slab of... You keep smiling. Big wood. So, yeah. I think there was one of the carmene patterns on carmene flooring is actually called something wood. Is it really?
Yeah. And I always say it to... I keep specifying it by mistake. I keep going to wrong... I've specified your big wood again. I can't remember what it's called. So, a really good testimonial of this product. So, for how amazing this product is. And yes, I sell it, but I believe in it. And I believe in the product that I sell. As I said earlier, I've been doing this for nine years and it's the one product I've only ever sold. So, I
believe in it. I've never had any failures. It's never let me down. It's just consistent, as I said to the earlier ones. But as a really good testimonial is, nine years ago, I flew out to South Korea and you land in Incheon Airport, which is in Seoul. And Incheon Airport was opened in 2000. And every single surface there is wrapped with LX architectural film. And so, I see it when it was 15, 16 years old and it's still looking amazing. That's amazing.
And this isn't like... This is escalating walls. Sorry? Did you go back? Yeah. So, I'm going back in October and I'm going to be getting my camera out and I'll be taking loads of photographs of it. There was rumour that it was going to get rewrapped, but I'm not sure if it's actually happened yet. Someone went out there six months ago and they said it was still the same finish. So, I'm hoping that I'm going to get out there
and it will be still the same one. So, I'll then be able to say, look, 23 years on, it's looking like this. But even 15, 16 years ago when I looked in a really highly... The foot traffic of an airport and the usage, you'd expect it to be trashed. Inflated, yeah. But this is planters. So, they've got planters wrapped on it. They've got all the walls, the areas to the escalators, the lifts, the counters, the... Everywhere. And the canopy
is over the top and it looked amazing. So, even after that period of time in such a high foot traffic area, it just is a really good testimony to it. Cool. So, the industry started about 20 years ago, you said? Yes. So, this has been used... I keep going back to this nine-year thing by myself, but... That's because you've been doing it for nine years. Yeah, I've only been nine years. Yeah. But this has been going for over two decades in
Southeast Asia. And when you look at South Korea or you look at Japan, Japan especially, because obviously, a lot of the products are made in either Japan or South Korea. Some are made in China and Europe and things. But the market leaders are South Korea and Japan. They've been over two decades because they have no space to landfill because especially Japan being the island that it is. They have to then upcycle everything. So, it's a massive
industry for them out there and it's a very acceptable industry. So, over here, this is what... We need to learn from that, don't we, in this country? Absolutely. And I think now is the landscape, the landscape out there at the moment after COVID and after all of the pressures that are put upon us and how many climate things, which is climate constraints that we've got, especially around sustainability and the knowledge,
as I said, about the people that are becoming more savvy about this. This is... It's something to watch. When I said about the exponential growth of the smaller individuals taking this on board as their business model, that's not going to change. We have got... If it's a 100 million pound business over in Southeast Asia or in South Korea, this is going to be 100 million pound business over here. So, it's just us being able to harness it. And at the moment... Do you know what it is at the moment?
It's scratching the surface. It might be that there's... And when I say that isn't so much the installed sector, this is the distribution side of it. So, installed can be anything up. There's some projects out there which have achieved installation values of a million pounds. And that's not hard to... When you think wrapping for a million pounds, that's a lot of wrapping. But when you look at the savings, that may have cost them five million
pounds beforehand if they ripped everything out. Don't even get me started about the occupancy. So... Professor, about occupancy, had I pressed record at that point? Yeah, just in case you didn't know, there's a stadium and a stadia client that we go to and it's got, I think, 100 washrooms in the building. And they go through and they refurbish them and each one, on average, costs about £180,000 to refurbish, rip out. And it's
a nice high spec. So, I'm not playing it down, but it's a good high spec and it takes seven weeks to do. So, that, as a washroom, as you understand, washrooms out of circulation are a headache. And especially in stadia. So, we went in and... I say we, it's a royal we, I don't do any of the magic stuff. All I do is I just plant the seed and then the pips go along and they do the magic. They sprinkle the magic over into the sexy stuff. I've seen this firsthand.
So they literally went into a washroom, they didn't rip anything out. So, we're talking the IPS panels, the cubicles, the doors, the vanity tops, the walls, even where the walls were tiled, they used a PVC, 2mm PVC hygienic board, fully bonded over the tiles, used that as a substrate and stuck our material onto it. Then that was done and completed within four and a half days and cost £15,000. So, let's just recap on that. £180,000 and seven
weeks versus £15,000 and four and a half days. It's... And going back to that wording, it's good enough because I went back, that was done four and a half years ago. I went back and took photographs and the only marking on there was a stain on the flooring that appeared that wasn't there before. It looks perfect and the clients over the moon with it still. So, yeah, it's... It is really durable. But again, it's all down to detail, down to those pips on their detail and their skill sets.
We love the pips. We do love the pips, yeah. So, I mean, we've discussed durability. Have we discussed durability? So, where would you use... Could you use it on tabletops? Yeah, so, where it gets used in... If I was to run through a list of... So, durability is a very strange one because it very much is down to the service end user. So, it could be used for tabletops, worktops, kitchen doors, flush doors into obviously along corridors,
furniture, walling. So, you know, if I could sell nothing but walls, I'd be really happy. I was just thinking about that. You need to start specifying instead of wallpaper. Yeah, absolutely. Certain projects. Things like inside toilets, small paper is just... Yeah. Why not? Yes. And if I could sell nothing but walls, I'd be really happy because it's
like me doing. But the durability of this... So, a very large proportion of my usage goes into cruise liners and cruise liners need to be in circulation for up to seven years. And that's got to stay prestige for those seven years. And how many people... You're way too young to have been on the cruise. I'd like to think I am as well. I'd like to agree. Have you? I'm younger than I look. I'm older than I look.
Yeah, you're younger than I look. I love it. Yeah, so usually when people go on there, they go, it's great because I had a wall paneling on here, I had marble there, I had a copper there. No, going back to your original description, you had sticky back plastic there and sticky back plastic there. It was the transformation of those details in those areas. It was all architectural film because the beauty of it is it takes all of the credentials for the
certification. But most importantly, it's lightweight, they can use it overhead. So it looks like you've got marble overhead, but you haven't, you've got film. And it can be removed very easily and then reapplied onto those substrates without any difficulty. And the so the durability, we put it into student accommodation where we had one situation, this is another story, and another situation where we put it onto, I know it's maybe 350
student rooms and Crip kitchens and that sort of stuff. And one of the work tops was scorched. And when we investigated, we thought, oh, no, this is, this is, oh, no, oh, my goodness, I've, I've oversold this and I've made a massive mistake. And then it turned out that the student when we quiz them, because obviously they're gonna have to pay for this because it's got scorched. They said, Oh, no, we did actually get a walk and we got really hot and we held
it on there to see if we could melt the top. And it didn't melt, it just scorched. I really disappointed. It just scorched like a normal work top would. And but what happened was, the great thing was, is that all we did, we peeled it off, put a new piece down, no one lost any occupancy. We peeled it back down, stuck it on, but we did then put these little self adhesive stainless steel strips on, I think it called hot rods or something like that, you can buy them on Amazon.
They're brilliant. I put them in my rental properties because then if you put them next to the, people don't care, do they, if it's not there. So if you put, put those kinds of things next to the top, then people will use them. Instinctively. Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly what we did. And it was just, it just identified so many things about how, one, how robust it was, and also that it didn't melt and it's
clearly resistant. But even down to the thermal shock with boiling hot water, if you pour boiling hot water onto it, it's fine. That protective film, earlier I said, it has an abrasion resistance to it. So whether you're familiar with a taper test or not, it goes for a taper test, which is the JIS certification. And that's where it goes from an abrasive wheel and it measures how long it takes to wear through the surface. And one without
a protective layer to it will maybe go through 40 cycles. And that's probably a year, but one with a protective film will go through 4,000 cycles, which is like 12 years. So it goes to show how really abrasion resistant this product is and durable it is. And again, it comes down to, there is a system so that when, well that's self adhesive, when you're preparing, you prepare the substrate correctly. There will be, if there's undulations, you
do localised repairs. And as good as you do that preparation, that preparation is you're investing into its longevity. So if you've got rid of the undulations and you've primed it correctly, there is a primer you can put around the edges and underneath. And what that does, that acts like a, once it's dried, it turns it almost into a contact adhesive
and it will make it 10 times gravier. So you've got no chance of those edges lifting. And when an installer puts it in, they're trained to be able to make sure that where they've done their cut, you don't get any flick on those edges. And because you can't flick it up, it doesn't lift and therefore it stays in place. But managing people's expectations, mainly is the most important thing. Because people will be listening to this and go, do
you know what? This sounds like a fantastic super product. Which is a super product, but it's only as good as the installation. But you have a table and they go, right, okay, I've got these beach tables and I want them to be marble. And they're going to expect the installers to come along with his little magic wand and tap it and go marble. Yeah. But you've got to explain to them, there's a start and a finish to this material because
it is being wrapped. So there will be at some stage, if you put your hand under far enough, you will find a start and a finish of that material. So managing their expectations on these, on detail and corners is crucial. Because that way no one gets any nasty surprises. Everyone gets exactly what they wanted. But also the good installers will know exactly where to hide those ends and then tuck them up into little areas or take them back further
where there's no fingers underneath. I went to, on a spa day the other day and the lockers in the spa had been wrapped and they were quite intricate lockers. They were funny shapes sort of slotted into each other, but you could see the edge of the, so inside the locker from, so an untrained eye wouldn't know this, but I'm going, oh my God, what's this? And
because the lockers had got, it used to be wood, you know, the same shape. So like, I was investigating as I do, but the inside of the locker, you could see where the panel had been put on the inside. Right. Because you would have had to have had something somewhere. So yeah, there was edges in there, but I mean to the untrained eye, no one's going to know any different. It just looks like they've been, they've got beautiful new lockers. Yeah.
Obviously that's another story coming up. So a very large, well-known leisure health club chain. They had, they've had about 65 or so. Maybe. Maybe. That's where I was the other day. Yeah. Was it? Yeah. So what's interesting is when we did a lot of their ones, they were originally going to replace all the doors. All of the carcasses were in a light coloured timber and they wanted to go for dark. So they were going to have all of the light coloured
doors taken to dark, but the carcass would have grinned through. So they would have had to have painted that edge in, which would have chipped off. And the cost was astronomical and also all the changing facilities and all of the vanity tops and where the mirrors are, they couldn't actually be changed in such a simple way. So they again would have had
to been painted. So when we did those ones for this leisure group, we did the face of it and then when they returned it around the back, we actually put a covering piece of material in the back as well. So the door looks like a solid piece of timber. You could see a slight undulation of the overlap of it, but it just sealed in the door. But then what they did was they then gave just the leading edge of the carcass a wrap to the
face in the door colour so everything was hidden. But they also did it to the vanity tops. The bench in, actually they've built new benches in. I mean this is what I was saying about where it's sensible, just buy new ones in if it's more cost effective. But then they also went up to shower level as well. So they went all the way up to the showers. So just a question, can you use this inside a shower or is it not advisable?
A really, really good question. I've done my own investigation with this and I've left samples of this submerged in water for like three months at a time. I've wrapped seating and left it out in snow and the sun. So the biggest thing, let's take two extremes. So shower area and outside area. Can you use this outside? Yes, it will stay sucked down and it can go outside, but it's down to the UV stability. It hasn't got external direct
sunlight stability in it. So internally UV stability is good with the sunlight, but outside it hasn't got those filters. But going into a wet environment, most architectural films the manufacturers will say no. However, as a story, I know of a university which has been very successful in doing the dividers in the shower areas. Wow. And they did it even though the manufacturer said no. Yeah, it was done. And what it was the client was aware of it. So it was a negotiation saying
that what are your options? Well, I've got to rip it all out otherwise. Let's give it a try. And the best thing I can do is as long as this substrate is bone dry and when you do your preparation, you use IPA isopropanol cleaner, which is an alcohol based that evaporates. So you don't get any water or moisture into that substrate, but they made sure all the
surfaces were bone dry. Then they use the primer that I mentioned around the edges and they cut it and made sure that everything was totally covered with primer, all dry when they did it, no flick on the edges. And if there was any lift, the client would then is understand the client would then contact the install and say, look, I've got a small area that's lifting. Can you come look at it within the next week or so? It wasn't
going to be, oh, it's all failing. Just keep it real. And so far, and this is a year and a half later, it hasn't failed in show. So I'm not good. Yes. Yeah. Brilliant test. You know, what an amazing client to turn around and say, look, I understand this, but this this time push it. But as I say, the the manufacturers, most of them will say no, because you don't really want to use those locations. And some people have said, can you go over tiles? So
I mentioned earlier about a tile situation. Tiles, you can go to the top. But again, the user, if you did that in a in a leisure facility, and they said, right, we had a massive refurb. And they just stuck it all over tiles. And you can see all the tiles grinning through there. But look, I'm not a fool. Come on. You know, it's like painting tiles. It's just so to lose those grout lines is best over clad it as a say, we're fully bonded sheet
then becomes your substrate. Because then the future your future proofing for future refurbishments as well later on, when you say, okay, I'm gonna get rid of those yellow tiles, and I'm going to put a PVC sheet over the top and use architectural film into a timber, then in seven years time, when you say, do you know, I don't like the timber no more, I want it to be a color or I want it to be a marble or stone or concrete, then
peel it all off again, use a substrate again, and away you go. No downtime. And the but the the pushing of the boundaries, just so you know, going because of that relative humidity of 90% earlier, going up to the edge of a wet area, and in bathrooms, it's more than capable of going into those environments. So I deal and the secret little market so you know, where this goes into is goes into hospitality and leisure, it goes into education,
healthcare, and into transport. And there's some other little routes where it goes into OEMs. So into you would have been OEMs. Oh, sorry, original equipment manufacturers, right? So so new. So actually, new fresh in manufacture. So what people want to be aware of is that there will be products around them that they're bought brand new in, that has actually used architectural film that I would have placed in there. And it's been in there for four
or five years in the manufacturing process that people won't know about. I'm keeping them secret. Can you can you use it in your home? Yeah, do you know, there's a massive, a massive growth of market for this in the fact of people doing kitchens, you mentioned your worktop. So a domestic route, and a lot of the guys are starting off like this by
wrapping kitchen doors. Because let's face it, how much to have a kitchen ripped out and replaced is 15,000 pound, you know, I don't know, just find a figure out there. You know, if you've got 12 doors or something like that, you know, as a kitchen area. But then it's the aggravation. If you ever had a brand new kitchen done, it's like I've been living out of a bowl for like three weeks now. And it's talking insane. Yeah, takeaways
every night. I haven't got a fully working kitchen, all that sort of thing. However, someone might be able to go into that kitchen and wrap it for 1500 pounds or 2000 pounds. And you could be flipping that a flip in a property. Yeah, this is one of the things that I'm talking to one of my friends is looking at flip buying and flipping a property. And I'm like, as soon as you get this house, you need to talk to me because I need to I need
to introduce you to architectural film. Because I was so impressed with what that that worktop look that we did. Yeah. Oh, man. I'm like, where else can I use it? Just because it's so durable, you know, such a champion. I love it. Yeah, you know, with that, there's you're not you're not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes either, because, you know, you've got
it's it's not something which isn't is going to fail. It's fit for purpose. So domestically, if they have wrapped a kitchen, they just haven't done it how everyone else has done it, you know, by doing a new one in the future. This is going to be a commonplace. People will wrap kitchens, people will wrap kitchen worktops. You know, I had a quote, I think, not me personally, but someone had a quote for a five meter worktop to be taken out and
put back in one it was it damaged the walls. It is you know, and I think they've paid 1800 pounds, 1000 pounds for a workshop. Whereas someone would have gone in there and maybe done that for I don't know, you know, 150 pounds a linear meter, for example, you know, so it would have been very, it's very cost effective, but no damage and the speed of which they did, did it in as well. So yeah, so good. I love it. Yeah.
So I hope this has educated everyone a bit more on architectural film. It's what I wanted. I mean, Scott has done exactly what we needed to do in terms of education, because it's just such an amazing product and like for sustainability and everything else. It's brilliant. So if you are interested, if you're an interior designer, or if you're an interior architect, or even if you're at home, anyone can contact you Scott.
Yeah, please do. Yes. Yeah, you can you can email me or you can just go to our website. Is that okay? Yeah, I put all your details on the show notes. Yeah, so go to our website. We've got lots of case studies on there. You can order your samples next day delivery on some samples. And you've got Tiff and I think Tiff, Tiff's details, my details, even a photograph of us both on there. So I'd welcome any kind of communication. Yeah, anything you can do to help. Thank you for your time, Sue.
No, you're welcome. Thank you for coming on. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge because it's been really educational. And Cheryl hasn't been able to make it with us today. She's otherwise engaged. Yeah, sorry, she couldn't be here. Thank you for listening to the interior design podcast. On the show notes, you'll be able to see all of our different contact details. We're on Instagram and Facebook. And we've got a little section on the harp
design website. We're also on Apple, we're on Spotify, we're on Amazon, and some other podcast hosts, which I can't remember where I've updated it. I've kind of gone a bit mad and updated it everywhere. But yeah, so you should be able to listen on various different channels. So thank you very much, Scott, for joining us. And we'll see you next time.