Same-Sex Attraction, Freedom in Vulnerability + an Unfinished Symphony (Conversation w/ Jeff and Jourdan of Open Spaces)

[SPEAKER_03]: If you're listening to the intentional parents podcast, brought to you by Intentional. [SPEAKER_03]: Intentional is all about spiritual formation in the family. [SPEAKER_03]: We desire to bring biblical hope and practical hope. [SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy this week's conversation. [SPEAKER_03]: Today on the show, we have Jeff and Jordan Johnson. [SPEAKER_03]: Their worship leaders at Passion City Church in Atlanta and they host the open spaces podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: Together, they bring years of ministry, creativity, and honesty to everything that they do, whether leading worship or having real conversations about faith, marriage, and identity. [SPEAKER_03]: Their story carries both beauty and battle, and they've walked through the questions that many of you do calling, healing, what does it mean to follow Jesus with nothing to hide as they really lead by example and go first.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now out of their journey in story, what you're going to hear today came the open spaces podcast and it's a ministry built around one idea that God really meets us right where we are if we make room for him. [SPEAKER_03]: These wonderful people, Jeff and Jordan became fast friends and as you will hear their story is powerful and impactful so please make sure to check out the show notes and follow all that they're doing open spaces is an incredible ministry.

[SPEAKER_03]: Also, I want to say thank you to everyone who's rated, subscribed, and left a comment. [SPEAKER_03]: It is more helpful than you know. [SPEAKER_03]: It helps get the word out. [SPEAKER_03]: So if you haven't had a chance to do that, would you just even pause right now and do one of those three? [SPEAKER_03]: Or all, that would be very helpful. [SPEAKER_03]: But enjoy today's conversation with Jeff and Jordan Johnson. [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to the intentional parents podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: This is a special day. [SPEAKER_03]: As you heard in the intro. [SPEAKER_03]: New friends on the episode. [SPEAKER_03]: If there was a round of a plausibility, there's not. [SPEAKER_03]: But Jeff and Jordan are here with us Elizabeth and I will clap. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, yes, yes, but I was let's insert some of the shots Welcome to the show.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for anyone watching knows that this is very intimate we are [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is incredible. [SPEAKER_00]: This is incredible. [SPEAKER_00]: Friendship already. [SPEAKER_03]: We're in a hotel room in Nashville. [SPEAKER_03]: Let's just give a context for this. [SPEAKER_01]: Please do. [SPEAKER_03]: Please go to the best folks. [SPEAKER_03]: People don't know this. [SPEAKER_03]: They heard this in the intro.

[SPEAKER_03]: But Elizabeth found came across your guys's stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: What month was that? [SPEAKER_03]: Was it right when it came out? [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe February. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: She sends me your as a podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: She says, you have to listen to this. [SPEAKER_03]: These people are incredible. [SPEAKER_03]: You need to check it out. [SPEAKER_03]: And so she sends it to me. [SPEAKER_03]: And we listen to, oh, you did what was smart.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you released a week at a time. [SPEAKER_03]: And she sent only two weeks in, which I was like, why did you do that? [SPEAKER_03]: Just wait till like eight weeks in. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, it's the whole thing. [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, she sent it. [SPEAKER_03]: And then just immediately, not only love your story, which I cannot wait for you guys to share. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for sharing it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: But then also just fell in love with the way that you guys really are so real about Jesus about your faith about your story about what God's doing in transparency and real time. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's been really it's just so refreshing in the space of communication that does not always happen. [SPEAKER_03]: You guys know that and we just Elizabeth and I highly value that and the whole intentional very much values that. [SPEAKER_03]: So that was the first thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then we jumped on a call and we're like, we got to do this sometime. [SPEAKER_03]: We're like, great. [SPEAKER_03]: And then life gets busy. [SPEAKER_03]: You guys get busy. [SPEAKER_03]: We get busy. [SPEAKER_03]: We ended up being close to Nashville. [SPEAKER_03]: You guys live in Atlanta, Georgia, not even close to Nashville. [SPEAKER_03]: About three hours away. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'd like literally voicemail to you, Jeff. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm here.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure you don't have time. [SPEAKER_03]: But like, we can stay in two days. [SPEAKER_02]: Could you? [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to hang it like we can have lunch to dinner like to a podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: And you guys are like, [SPEAKER_04]: And I've always said to you right back, you really said, I'm in. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, no, we just said, which I love with you. [SPEAKER_03]: What you don't know about me is I love last minute.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, that's exactly how I call Jordan that. [SPEAKER_04]: Make sure. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, we're good. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm making sure we get to take care of. [SPEAKER_04]: And then we jumped in the car. [SPEAKER_03]: He jumped in the, he guys are amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: So we're here. [SPEAKER_03]: That's the context. [SPEAKER_03]: So I just want to let everyone's like, where are they at? [SPEAKER_03]: That's where we're at, which makes us story even more beautiful.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: But we're just really glad you're on the show and thanks for taking time. [SPEAKER_04]: Ah, we are so grateful to be on top. [SPEAKER_04]: We're very happy to be here. [SPEAKER_04]: And I will just say this before we even get into our story. [SPEAKER_04]: You all have already been so encouraging to us. [SPEAKER_04]: And encouraging us in all the ways that we didn't even know we needed it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so we're just super grateful to step in today and be with you guys. [SPEAKER_04]: And I even think about the first time we did that Zoom call in the met. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, OK, these people, Jordan, I'm like, we gotta know that it was immediate. [SPEAKER_04]: It was like we have to know them and we got to like, hang with them. [SPEAKER_04]: And it was just crazy how Lord put it all together. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we're just super super grateful.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love it. [SPEAKER_03]: And Elizabeth and I are going to be sharing a mic. [SPEAKER_03]: So if I'm like, hey, do you want to say something else? [SPEAKER_03]: That's because Yeah, only brought three months. [SPEAKER_03]: So this is where we're at. [SPEAKER_03]: So we are completely family living room style. [SPEAKER_03]: This is a conversation and also I just want to give it heads up. [SPEAKER_03]: The content today is going to be rich.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's also going to be potentially there's moments of maturity in it. [SPEAKER_03]: So if someone's listening in the car with kids, I would say probably just know that like there's some definitely adult ideas and contents at kids might be like what? [SPEAKER_03]: We're all for that. [SPEAKER_03]: Like actually use it as an excuse to have conversations with your kids. [SPEAKER_03]: But if you're like, I'm not ready to have those conversations just FYI.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: And then the other detail would be get some tissues because there is some real things happening. [SPEAKER_03]: You guys story is beautiful. [SPEAKER_03]: So I just want to kind of, I'll set the stage. [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to say anything? [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want the mic before I ask a question? [SPEAKER_00]: You want the mic? [SPEAKER_00]: You keep the question. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you didn't hear that.

[SPEAKER_03]: She said no. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so what I'd love to do is just really open up and can you please share with us your story? [SPEAKER_03]: Now I know that that's together now, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but please feel free wherever you'd like to start and share with us life and story. [SPEAKER_03]: I love going on. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: that you could yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, um, we, Jeff and I met where, um, well, I guess a little bit of context needs to be given for the background. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I came from, um, a Southern Baptist family born and raised, uh, oldest of four kids. [SPEAKER_01]: Very, uh, [SPEAKER_01]: beautiful upbringing. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was very much a typical kind of straight lace for sport, good Christian girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in terms of like what my life had brought me at the point we met, there was just not a lot of struggle, not a lot of [SPEAKER_01]: nothing even really shaking my faith. [SPEAKER_01]: I was believer from a young age and just had a pretty easy good life and also kind of lived in a box and wasn't really comfortable with anything outside of that box. [SPEAKER_01]: So then I met Jeff when I was 19. [SPEAKER_04]: We like to say that I'm verse your bubble. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_04]: The box ruined quite a bit. [SPEAKER_01]: It's sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the context coming into meeting Jeff. [SPEAKER_01]: And we, he, Jeff had just graduated from college. [SPEAKER_01]: And we met, became fast friends. [SPEAKER_01]: Really, we bonded over, we're worship leaders, loved leading worship together. [SPEAKER_01]: We actually met leading worship.

[SPEAKER_01]: and just had a lot in common, had a lot of fun, became friends, were friends for a year before we started dating and eventually start dating, kind of getting more serious, we're long distance for a while, and then we broke up, got by together, and so it kind of culminates of the first big [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I am, have graduated from college, he's in like the corporate world.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but that was a key point in our relationship and I'll let you catch up from where you kind of, you're background in getting into this. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, grow up into Mexico and, um, [SPEAKER_04]: And growing up like we went to church church was like a thing we did and I went but it wasn't like personal to me.

[SPEAKER_04]: So it wasn't until I went to college and I was a junior in college when I went to a conference and it was that the passion conference when like first time I heard like I know I had been in many rooms when I heard the gospel but that was the room when I heard it and it all clicked and I was like oh okay this is like this is who Jesus is. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I have a question about that. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So what year was that?

[SPEAKER_03]: That was in 1998, 1998, and it was a passion conference. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And your job was leading all worship for. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And you guys, Lee worship pastor. [SPEAKER_03]: What a fun. [SPEAKER_03]: It's crazy. [SPEAKER_03]: How cool. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just putting that thread together. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, what a cool thing. [SPEAKER_03]: How God does that. [SPEAKER_03]: It is very cool.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of like the surreal thing of like. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, the Lord used this thing in both of our life. [SPEAKER_04]: That's where he called to order to be a worship leader too. [SPEAKER_04]: And then all these years later, now that we're getting to be there and part of what God's doing in the church, it's crazy as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I was at that conference when the Lord just opened my eyes, it was the thing, it was a classic thing of like the way that I had been living my life, I was like, I'm never going to go back like I'm not going to do these things and like making promises to God and kind of just that's that's all I knew when it was like, okay, great, like now I'm going to keep kind of striving in my own strength, but that's kind of I didn't really have a lot of discipleship or leadership, you know, walking out of that conference.

[SPEAKER_04]: So then, as I met Jordan, we are dating, and I had never really had like, I never had a girlfriend, like so this is like the first time I'm figuring out what this is like and like having a lot of fun and even outside of all of my other issues, I had the issue of just being really immature and not like classic. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, and not knowing how to treat a woman and like how to like that just wasn't, I didn't know how to do that well.

[SPEAKER_04]: So on top of that, like, I'm learning what it's like to be a young 20s in how to like date and, you know, that kind of thing. [SPEAKER_04]: But we were, at that point, we had been dating like Jordan said for like five years. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, five years. [SPEAKER_01]: We could work it up once, and it was kind of that breakup kind of felt like, Oh, we're in two different stages of life. [SPEAKER_01]: We're dating long distance.

[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't like, you know, really pursuing me. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I felt like I needed to be pursuing. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally. [SPEAKER_01]: He's not familiar with the ego. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't, I gave it. [SPEAKER_01]: So that kind of seemed like a nort like a natural breakup for that season of life. [SPEAKER_01]: But we get to this point where we had been back together, we're in mid-20s, late-20s for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we'd been together for long enough that we were like, credit at this crossroads, we were like, okay, are we going to keep moving forward? [SPEAKER_01]: Or what's going to happen? [SPEAKER_01]: Because there were some kind of tension points. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was kind of feeling insecure. [SPEAKER_01]: And I, again, I wasn't feeling like so pursued. [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: He wants to be in this relationship and I'm like I at this point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in love with him and like I'm like, okay, are we moving towards the future? [SPEAKER_04]: And so You told me but even with love It turns out I told him I love you first and I said thank you that was how romantic I was really did I did we're in the car. [SPEAKER_04]: She said it. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you [SPEAKER_04]: And now it's like, okay, well, I've had a lot to learn. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm sure. [SPEAKER_00]: But that's what every woman hopes.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a real dare the ones. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, if they're going to throw themselves out there. [SPEAKER_04]: If you're deaf the courage, it's like, I had to say thank you. [SPEAKER_04]: It goes very kind of her. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my gosh, it's a special gratitude. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So we kind of got into this place in our dating. [SPEAKER_01]: And we were having some conversations, some serious conversations. [SPEAKER_04]: And going through a book.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we were going through this book together and something in the book triggered Jeff, to where he kind of referenced vaguely this moment in his childhood that was significant. [SPEAKER_01]: And but he didn't tell me what it was, didn't unpack it. [SPEAKER_01]: But I could tell there was definitely something there. [SPEAKER_01]: And at this point, [SPEAKER_01]: It felt like I should know this. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and you have to understand to the nature of our relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were very open with each other in so many ways. [SPEAKER_01]: We had really open communication. [SPEAKER_01]: It was easy. [SPEAKER_01]: Our communication style was not tense. [SPEAKER_01]: It felt very strange that something would come up that I didn't know about at this point. [SPEAKER_01]: So I pushed him on it. [SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of gave him this, like, [SPEAKER_01]: I think you should be able to share this with me. [SPEAKER_01]: This seems very significant.

[SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_04]: But you gave me 48 hours to think something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a couple of days. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's, you know, you can kind of prepare yourself for like whatever, think through it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But I think we need to discuss this. [SPEAKER_01]: So we kind of had this planned moment where we were going to come around, whatever this was.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we got together on this particular night and and then he proceeds to tell me this story of, you know, just this whole unlocking of things that he's never shared with anyone before. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So this is the first time that I had ever shared with anyone that I was same sex attracted.

[SPEAKER_04]: So first time that I told said the words out loud had been living like a very double life like so having encounters and and like acting out in it, but it was like I was a different person on that side. [SPEAKER_04]: It was like I would do that, but then I would like be with Jordan and be like, well, I love hanging out with you. [SPEAKER_04]: But my attractions are not necessarily attracted to you. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not attracted to women, so this is weird.

[SPEAKER_04]: But it was the first time that I ever set it. [SPEAKER_04]: So when she was like, OK, we set down. [SPEAKER_04]: And we have the special place in Dallas that is our place. [SPEAKER_04]: But we set down and I said, yeah, this is the reality of my life. [SPEAKER_01]: But even painting the picture, you couldn't really even look at me. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this was third tears.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is through like, you know, just kind of head down, just doesn't know what the response is going to be. [SPEAKER_01]: Literally, first time he's ever let the words come out of his mouth. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I didn't even know how to say it. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, that's the thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, didn't even have really language. [SPEAKER_04]: There was no language around it. [SPEAKER_04]: It was like, I'm attracted to guys.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that we can keep going. [SPEAKER_04]: I explained something that had happened in my past when I was a kid that kind of like started down this road and it's kind of had been my whole life of thinking this is I was always, I had always felt more attracted to men than women so like it was I was actually saying it though and it was weird even here myself say it so we had this moment of [SPEAKER_04]: I'm crying. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not really able to look at her.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm thinking, you know, in this moment, I'm thinking, well, this is it. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, this is when she says, okay, like we're done, we're, you know, like, okay, like that's for you to figure out. [SPEAKER_04]: And when I was met with the the other side of, hey, I believe they got has something for us in this and I'm not going anywhere. [SPEAKER_04]: That was her words.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I was like, it was like, it hit me because it was absolutely the different thing that I expected. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, wait, that's that's different. [SPEAKER_04]: And I didn't even know how to, I feel like that night. [SPEAKER_04]: That's all like a process was like, she didn't leave. [SPEAKER_04]: She accepted the fact that this and I can only imagine in that moment, like what all that you were feeling.

[SPEAKER_04]: But the fact that you were wise enough to not, you didn't push me in that, [SPEAKER_04]: you met me there and it was like so special to us. [SPEAKER_04]: That moment was like, there's the most pivotal moment of my life. [SPEAKER_04]: I was 28. [SPEAKER_04]: It's first time I'm saying these things and I had lived with my whole life for 28 years of just like feeling some internal thing that was had I had no way to process that. [SPEAKER_04]: So that was very interesting.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that was in the fact that she didn't leave was the best thing. [SPEAKER_04]: So then we then now we have something to deal with. [SPEAKER_04]: And that began open up a whole other thing in our in our journey. [SPEAKER_04]: And so it was um I don't remember. [SPEAKER_04]: Like we had we had started going to counseling in dating, which is funny because people are like, hey, do y'all like even when we're dating couples will be like, do y'all think we should do counseling?

[SPEAKER_04]: We're like, no, probably not. [SPEAKER_04]: And [SPEAKER_04]: But we did, but we had a big issue with Zachary. [SPEAKER_02]: OK, maybe it does work for you. [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe you should go to counseling when you're dating. [SPEAKER_04]: But we had a counseling session scheduled, and so we show up to the counselor, and he's the second person. [SPEAKER_04]: So we sit down, and he's like, how was your week? [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, a big week.

[SPEAKER_04]: Start downloading with him. [SPEAKER_04]: And this man was just the most amazing godly man, just constantly speaking Romans 828 over us. [SPEAKER_04]: God works all things for his good.

[SPEAKER_04]: He believed in us and believed in what God was doing in us and I don't even I don't even know if I knew how about I needed someone to look at me and say It's okay and you we can keep pressing through this and you have two people now with you that are like willing to love you through this So that's that was a huge moment. [SPEAKER_04]: That was a turning putt of our relationship Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah [SPEAKER_01]: So that kind of set us off on a new path of we have new information. [SPEAKER_01]: We are, you know, wanting to move forward and start fighting for our relationship in a new way. [SPEAKER_01]: So we, you know, kind of stayed through counseling. [SPEAKER_01]: We ended up breaking up two more times. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was a real 10 years total. [SPEAKER_01]: Much a roller coaster. [SPEAKER_04]: 10 years of dating.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that we've ever met anybody that has, has beat us in the years. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, at this point, there've been a few, but yeah, it was, it was a quite a journey. [SPEAKER_01]: And so then, you know, the breaks, the breakups are feel devastating and, you know, for me, for me, in my late 20s, [SPEAKER_01]: At the last time we broke up, um, I thought it was for good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, okay, I guess we just have to close this book because my heart had just been on this crazy roller coaster, I felt like I had given everything I could. [SPEAKER_01]: And so we just went our separate ways. [SPEAKER_04]: And I had reached a point where I was like, I can't do it. [SPEAKER_04]: I really didn't believe that I would be able to do it. [SPEAKER_04]: To fight against that sin.

[SPEAKER_03]: When you say be able to do it, meaning like be with the woman, be very to woman. [SPEAKER_03]: That's what you mean by this. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't know how to, [SPEAKER_04]: I did not know how to tame my desires or like fight my sin in a way that I could truly surrender my life to Jordan. [SPEAKER_04]: So I was like, if I don't know how to do that after all of this work, this counseling, then I want to love you and let you go. [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: But it was interesting because even when we broke up, I was like, I just had, it was like the piece of the word, like, I, it was only because of that. [SPEAKER_04]: I think that it was like, I think we're going to get back together one day and then it made no sense and she, she moved on like she went on and I could not think that way. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I could not healthfully think that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: So I for me, I'll, and you can talk about your season in that moment, but. [SPEAKER_01]: At that point, this is our third breakup. [SPEAKER_01]: I was 27 years old and everything in my life was in kind of a people at that point because our lives were very intersected. [SPEAKER_01]: We were leading warship together. [SPEAKER_01]: We were like, so it's like ministry, career, relationship, you know, all the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was I had to go through some major rebuilding [SPEAKER_01]: What am I going to do? [SPEAKER_01]: What am I going to do with my life? [SPEAKER_01]: And so I felt like wisdom said, you have to just close that and be done, move on, move forward. [SPEAKER_01]: So I did and I and the Lord, he did incredible work in my life in those years. [SPEAKER_01]: And um, [SPEAKER_04]: And then, uh, and mine too, we started opening our life up to more and more people. [SPEAKER_04]: I did.

[SPEAKER_04]: I started actually figuring out what it was like to like walk with guys, actually talk about your sin, actually like fight your sin. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and while my sin looked different than a lot of the guys around me that I didn't it was like meeting other guys with the same struggles. [SPEAKER_04]: Me that I'm fighting with.

[SPEAKER_04]: But when you when you start talking about your sin in a way that's like you can relate to, but mine seems like it's attracted, but what is yours? [SPEAKER_04]: And it was, you know, whatever the other thing was. [SPEAKER_04]: It was like, okay, how are you fighting that?

[SPEAKER_04]: So when you there was like a more normalizing of like, instead of like suppressing, hiding, it was more living in the light, living in truth, and inviting others to do that with me, that led to a healing that I needed in those two years that Jordan cannot fulfill. [SPEAKER_04]: that I had to be away from her and literally just with the Lord figure it out. [SPEAKER_04]: And realize I could not try to stay, I always relate it to like just an alcoholic.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like this sobriety period's got longer and longer and acting out. [SPEAKER_04]: And like I got to where it was like, okay, I've been clean for a long time now. [SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like I can invite someone else into my life now and not perfect. [SPEAKER_04]: But I've seen God give me the grace and the strength to fight it. [SPEAKER_04]: And that was a different thing after, so then that was after 10 years. [SPEAKER_04]: We had been a part for two years that last time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And two years? [SPEAKER_01]: Two years of being part. [SPEAKER_01]: Two years, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I, with the Lord was doing in me, in addition to helping kind of rebuild my confidence and helping me even see who I am apart from Jeff and the ministry that he has for me and all these things, he was also showing me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, breaking up was, [SPEAKER_01]: it's as you could imagine devastating on many counts, but one of the ways was I love this person so much and I have believed so much for them and I don't know if I don't know what's going to happen to him, you know, if he's saying like I can't do this, what does that mean? [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what does that mean for him?

[SPEAKER_01]: And what does that mean for what he believes about the Lord and so I'm even having, you know, I've been to a grief and all the, absolutely, depression and [SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to really take care of them and having to let go and let the Lord do whatever he was going to do and so that that was a huge thing for my faith to be rebuilt in these ways of like what what do I really believe about the Lord what is capable of what he will do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was also huge for me and then learning what it is to like, okay, well, I had to also come to the terms with like, well. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that I was going to be the significant tool in his life to help him see what the Lord could do. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to rescue him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, taking myself off of that pedestal and realizing, [SPEAKER_01]: the Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants and he may or may not use me and I'm not the magic ingredient here. [SPEAKER_01]: So that was also very important for me to begin to realize just for life and whatever my future was going to hold. [SPEAKER_01]: So then all of a sudden after two and a half years, this was a long yeah, pause for a second. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a long time.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was going to also [SPEAKER_03]: Oh wow, but we were 17 when she broke up with me. [SPEAKER_03]: She got out early. [SPEAKER_03]: She's like, she's like, clocked your real quick. [SPEAKER_03]: She's like, these are her words. [SPEAKER_03]: I could not see myself marrying you. [SPEAKER_03]: That was interesting. [SPEAKER_04]: You gotta know after two and a half years. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, well, I mean, after it crushing my soul. [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it was the very, it was a great impetus to begin change. [SPEAKER_03]: And it was, you know, catalog, catalog moment to grow. [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds very similar in that sense. [SPEAKER_03]: And for me, it was like, sent me on the journey of like, whoa, I don't want to be that person. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this is not my story though, but just to note, no, that's awesome.

[SPEAKER_03]: I understand that two and a half years feels like that's what it, you know, because it's a quality does. [SPEAKER_03]: It does, I think, so much good. [SPEAKER_03]: So absolutely, that is a long time. [SPEAKER_03]: I remember I've lived it. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just know, yes, not a small amount of time because I mean, at that point, you have basically said, it's done. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, you had to let that die.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, essentially in the set, what you thought of it to be, I mean, you're moving. [SPEAKER_03]: Right. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I mean, [SPEAKER_03]: That's right. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so keep going. [SPEAKER_03]: I just am so yeah, still I'm not on the edge of my seat. [SPEAKER_03]: And I know the story to keep going. [SPEAKER_03]: How does it is you're going to stop keep going?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, through an intro, like a really actually cool part of the story that we don't have to go and all the details of, we end up in the same place at the same time. [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to know too, we were not in touch in those two and a half years. [SPEAKER_01]: Our lives were so entwined.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had to, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: and kind of figure out like who are my friends who are yours or like who are the friends we share but we just hang out with it different times so but we did kind of find each find each other in the same place at the same time we had like kind of this group hang and and it was really fun but then it was like well that that kind of came and went.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but then like a couple of days later, I get a text from Jeff and he's asked if we can hang out, um, because he was like, no, no, he didn't say, it could meet because because I would like to clear up some things from last weekend. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm, and I'm literally thinking, what do we need to clear up? [SPEAKER_04]: Jordan and not went. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel very clear about where things didn't like, I don't mean, I don't even declare any. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I was like super annoyed in the moment. [SPEAKER_03]: Sure. [SPEAKER_01]: but I am also very curious. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so like, okay, let's get together and see what this is all about. [SPEAKER_01]: And so we meet up at Starbucks and sit down and then Jeff proceeds to kind of [SPEAKER_01]: essentially start showing some remorse for the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that he hadn't done that yet, but he was just kind of tracing back like, I've realized in this time like how I treated you, how I kind of did not pursue you well and I've learned all these things and I'm thinking like, oh, well, this is cool. [SPEAKER_01]: He's just reflecting and maybe just wanting to apologize. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, and I'm not saying anything. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just listening to what he's his speech. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was literally speech.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know a lot, it's okay. [SPEAKER_03]: I've learned he does like listening to himself talk. [SPEAKER_03]: And I do like talking with him. [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, talking to you, got in the bathroom. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, where is she? [SPEAKER_03]: I was still giving my speech. [SPEAKER_03]: Here's the, I was, I'm getting, yeah, let us start coming to the misleavened language. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm still feeling like he's going.

[SPEAKER_01]: So at some point, his speech turns a corner, and he starts talking about the future. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm literally like, what's happening here and he ultimately is saying, I've done a lot of work. [SPEAKER_01]: I still believe in us and I'm curious if you would give me another chance. [SPEAKER_01]: I was not prepared for that. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it totally took me by surprise.

[SPEAKER_01]: So at this point, I've done all this work to try to move on and heal and so that kind of set us on a new path of just like processing this. [SPEAKER_01]: We, there was some time and space in there and eventually, about a month later, I came around and I was like, okay, I think the Lord has prepared me for this in ways that I didn't know. [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, this is the timeline of this is funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's 2010. [SPEAKER_01]: We had that meeting in March and we ended up getting married in November of that year. [SPEAKER_01]: It's very quick. [SPEAKER_01]: It was at that point. [SPEAKER_01]: It's been years. [SPEAKER_03]: You've been okay. [SPEAKER_03]: That's the thing. [SPEAKER_04]: It was like there's nothing else to figure out in this. [SPEAKER_04]: We're in there. [SPEAKER_04]: We're out.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we ended up getting married and our wedding was amazing because it was every. [SPEAKER_04]: There was a lot of people in the room that didn't know our story. [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, the past through the married us like, new our story and.

[SPEAKER_04]: So it was just like the culmination of all of this ten years of like fighting for what everyone was watching happen in front of them and it has and I really we said for a long time like that was a gift to us is up in a marriage knowing each other so much like we knew ourselves we knew each other like there was really there was literally nothing hidden like that was a gift that we got through the craziness of the journey that I'm grateful for and have

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so now we're married and three kids and then even then you know that getting married set us off on a new part of our journey and just figuring out what is marriage going to look like what is our sex life going to look like that was a big question mark for us and [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so it was, it was very interesting and there have been a, you know, many turns along the way and a lot to learn a lot to process and we walked in with a lot of faith.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, okay, guys, you've let us this far. [SPEAKER_04]: There's no way if we. [SPEAKER_04]: We had seen what he could do and what was possible, so it was like the next step was easier to trust. [SPEAKER_04]: So it was like, well, I don't know how it's all going to work out, but what we have seen, if anything that we have seen leads to where we're going, then it's going to be pretty great.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we had to just walk in with a lot of trust of like dying to ourselves and all kinds of ways. [SPEAKER_04]: And then stepping into a marriage and we've watched God do so much.

[SPEAKER_04]: Our marriage and just, and then with, I've been giving us kids like, um, it's truly amazing, like our kids are such the greatest gift of our life, and we always hit it like our, our miracles that, it's only because of God's kindness and grace in my life that, um, he gave me Jordan, that is a miracle to me, then he gave me kids that I could actually know what it is to father and disciple and lead a family like that should have never been in my story, like, and

[SPEAKER_04]: But God intervened in the story and rescued me in a really drastic way that took a lot of years, a lot of discipleship, a lot of hard, a lot of fighting against my sin and a lot of my struggle. [SPEAKER_04]: And surrendering my life in a full way of saying, okay, I'll die to this every single day. [SPEAKER_04]: It hasn't gone away.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's something that like Jordan and I are pretty passionate about talking about because I think often in church we can talk about the wrapped up voice story of like, well, that's great now. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's awesome that y'all are on this side of it, but we are still with every single day, like we're, she has her own things and I have this and other things and we're still dying to ourself to inviting for our marriage and it's an amazing thing that we get to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: But it is still an active struggle that we have learned tools and accountability and friends and community and everything that we use to now fight. [SPEAKER_04]: together and we do that together and there's nothing off the table. [SPEAKER_04]: Everything is open. [SPEAKER_04]: We talk about it all. [SPEAKER_04]: We have Jordan so amazing. [SPEAKER_04]: We just really have connected in a way that like humor is a big part of our marriage.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like even sometimes it's not always heavy. [SPEAKER_04]: Like we have realized how to even with our [SPEAKER_04]: But to not ever be so pushed down by our sin that we can't breathe and enjoy each other and like not to take ourselves to seriously and like yeah And like use humor in some of it and just figured out this is our dynamic. [SPEAKER_04]: This is how Jeff and Jordan work and I wouldn't be married if it was it for Jordan. [SPEAKER_04]: That's what I always say.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like I gave me the perfect person for me to To walk with so that's our story [SPEAKER_00]: things I want to highlight and then a question I want to ask. [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, thank you guys for sharing so openly and so honestly, here with us today and then in the work that you do, it's so needed and it's vulnerable, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like to share the whole story and I think it's so incredibly helpful for all the people who are [SPEAKER_00]: Living their story in the dark and they're living it every day, but they don't the world doesn't know they're close circle doesn't now Yes, but thank you for your vulnerability and then Just noting like hearing your journey.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think oftentimes You know sadly we'll hear some of these types of stories and it didn't turn out well and but oftentimes it's you know [SPEAKER_00]: people go into it naively like well if we just get married everything will just be fine sure right yeah but i love the fact that it was a ten-year journey and that it was a journey that involved other people involved a counselor like you Jordan you knew what you were signing up for yes yeah when you said yes to my friend

[SPEAKER_00]: And you knew you were signing up for your marriage looking a little different and I think that's beautiful Like a beautiful redemption story that God can work all things together for good And it just might look really different than what we said out to look like And then my question, I remember in listening to your podcast and hearing your whole story I remember you Jeff talking about how for you

[SPEAKER_00]: you decided I want to go all in and follow Jesus, which means I'm not going to act out on this part of my life. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make that choice and for you it meant marriage. [SPEAKER_00]: Like you felt like that was something you could commit to. [SPEAKER_00]: At what point in your journey was it like this line in the sand?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this is a struggle of mine, but I am choosing to follow Jesus all the way and I believe what he says is for my flourishing and so I'm going all in I would even consider marriage I want kids like what it I'm sure that was not a like a one marked moment and it was done forever right but talk a little bit about that of like why why choosing this way of like I can still follow Jesus regardless of this like what was that

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's an interesting thing because I said for a long time like in the middle of my sin and in the middle of the struggle, I would get, I would say it times just in my full honesty, I would say this would have been so much easier if you wouldn't have saved me God. [SPEAKER_04]: If I could just live in my sin, this would be way easier. [SPEAKER_04]: But I didn't have that. [SPEAKER_04]: So I know Salvation is a gift.

[SPEAKER_04]: But in the fight in the struggle, there were oftentimes that I was like, I wish I wasn't saved in this moment. [SPEAKER_04]: And it was like, okay, what do you do with that? [SPEAKER_04]: And but I being honest with God, there is so much in my journey that I had to realize that God, if this is a relationship that we can talk that way, I can say these things to him and then listen to what he's saying back to me.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm grateful that I did that because now our my relationship with Lord is so much deeper and richer, but it was in that that I was like, okay, I am going to choose to deny I mean all of us are dying to ourselves in some way and I felt like this was it was interesting because there was a there was a shifting moment almost of like this is almost a gift of like that I get to choose to die to this and and something that's so big to me.

[SPEAKER_04]: And when I made that put I always say I put my stake in the ground. [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I will not go back. [SPEAKER_04]: Like I'm going to that will mean that like I will crave things that I don't get in life. [SPEAKER_04]: But I knew that I believed and I felt like the Laura was telling me there's something better than that. [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's it's there's something you think that that's what you want. [SPEAKER_04]: But I know the true desires of your heart.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it was like, when I started like actually following that and listening to that and believing that, like it was, I started seeing how that played out. [SPEAKER_04]: And so I really did like it was more like, I had, it was, this is an interesting thing because in this struggle, I feel like there's a lot of guys who just started like, well, I wish they didn't have this. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna be single my whole life. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna like, how do you fight this?

[SPEAKER_04]: How do you live in this flesh and still choose Jesus if this is your desire? [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I think when you, I think what was the most helpful thing in all of it was normalizing. [SPEAKER_04]: Same sex attraction is not different than everyone else's thing. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: And we have, we have, we've been, uh, I don't know, we've just been told that in in different ways of way that, that they global church. [SPEAKER_04]: We don't talk about it.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're like, hey, no, that's different. [SPEAKER_04]: So when I really did the work and God in community and realized like this is like normalizing it, like this is I'm dying of this, but you're dying of this. [SPEAKER_04]: It was dying to something. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it was easier for me to relate to guys and then have be like, okay, now, and I know I'm going to keep you're fighting your sin. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to fight my sin. [SPEAKER_04]: We're doing this together.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it was something I definitely chose in that [SPEAKER_04]: a big part of that was I felt like I had been fighting for Jordan, but it was like when she was out of my life then it was like this is between me and the Lord and I and want to follow him and see what he has so I'm going to deny my flesh and to keep following him in this to your period

[SPEAKER_04]: I did that, and then I started seeing, even outside of Jordan, I just started seeing the gifts he was giving me and things that he was bringing to my life. [SPEAKER_04]: But just denying myself was like the biggest thing and just committing to it. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I think we just have to commit, you have to say, like, hey, this is what we're signing up for. [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know how it's all going to play out, but I'm committed to it.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the practical thing that I hear you saying like and this is I think that there's cultural conditioning in the sense of like Christian culture It doesn't understand why we asked you guys to have this conversation and I don't you know people are going to listen to this and if you hear this conversation and your first response as a Christian is back [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I would say check your whole self because what you just said is could not be more true.

[SPEAKER_03]: Every issue, it is an issue, sin is sin. [SPEAKER_03]: We over glamorize and hyperfocus on sexual sin in the church. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And actually interestingly enough, the scripture doesn't differentiate. [SPEAKER_03]: It talks about the pain of sin. [SPEAKER_03]: And sexual sin is the one sin that yes, you actually can actually damage and hurt your own self. [SPEAKER_03]: You're sending it against yourself. [SPEAKER_03]: That is the one unique dynamic.

[SPEAKER_03]: But outside of that in God's eyes, it's not like hey guess what this is just as bad so for example We on a practical note like you're most likely probably you're at the gym You're not gonna go into the men's locker room for wisdom. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm actually not going in the women's locker room [SPEAKER_03]: that's right for wisdom. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Also, I think there'll be some dynamics there.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're a little more obvious nonetheless, like I'm trying to normalize it to that sense to just say like, yes, this is built into all of us. [SPEAKER_03]: And for us to try to like, nuance and say, well, because it's this, it's, it's, it's worse, I don't understand. [SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm just saying that to say, I think there's a beauty in the normalization.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's one of the reasons we want to have this conversation because I think in culture there's so much confusion around this. [SPEAKER_03]: You guys are doing such beautiful work and you're talking about the things that are really hard and you're not trying away from the fact that, yeah, this is really difficult. [SPEAKER_03]: And your dynamic is different, but I'm thinking of Elizabeth and I stand at me. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, we have difficult dynamics too.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're not the same issues, they're not around the same stuff, but if I get off and I don't decide to start dying for myself every day, it gets really messed up. [SPEAKER_03]: No matter what the thing is, and then Ron Rull has her, there's a book called Wrestling with God. [SPEAKER_03]: I think this is a great book that as your talk is just coming in when I'm over and over.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he basically talks about this idea that in this life, everyone will experience done unfinished symphony. [SPEAKER_03]: that this side of heaven, all of us, will not get all the things that we want.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now, maybe that feels like a sexual desire, or maybe it feels like a preference of a dream in a, a, a, that never came true, or you, you wanted to have kids, but you can't have kids, or, or you, fill in the blank, the point isn't the thing as much as it's like, we feel the ache this side of heaven that we live in an unfinished symphony. [SPEAKER_03]: Marriage will never satisfy you, yeah, as much as you hope it will.

[SPEAKER_03]: No matter where you are at in the sexual attraction, it will always have this moment because that is how this that's the brokenness and so yes again highlighting all that to just set the stage to say you guys did a brave thing and you decided to say let's just talk about this and give it to the internet [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: That was not easy. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So our stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So with that, like stay in the story say wherever you want, but I mean, this is transition to a beautiful work, open spaces. [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, a podcast that I'm probably, but you guys are doing some beautiful work around this. [SPEAKER_03]: And our hope with having this conversation was just safe. [SPEAKER_03]: Please engage with this content, please listen. [SPEAKER_03]: What's your talk about open spaces?

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to say one thing for anybody that's listening? [SPEAKER_03]: This is so culturally important because so many people are confused about their identities. [SPEAKER_03]: They don't know what to do. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think there's a lot of people that don't know how to handle this and they just go, Well, it's just too much and then they just go, I'm out.

[SPEAKER_03]: And why you guys stand out so much is because you haven't actually just given into the cultural narrative that this has to be, and you've said, let's actually do the work. [SPEAKER_03]: Let's figure out what Jesus really wants. [SPEAKER_03]: And to hear your story that there's flourishing on the other side just gives hope. [SPEAKER_03]: So talk to us about open spaces where this come from, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I mean, you have this beautiful story, but then it's kind of emerged into something. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my gosh. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we didn't. [SPEAKER_01]: So. [SPEAKER_01]: The journey, we started telling some friends, you know, in our dating, in our marriage, it kind of like slowly unlocked and opened up in terms of like the people we would share our story with. [SPEAKER_01]: But it was largely private. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was largely just us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we thought at the time, you know, we're at the time when we got married and we were fully ice-hinter at worship leaders. [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing ministry all over partnering with different churches and events. [SPEAKER_01]: And we felt nervous about what if we start sharing this and maybe that'll put our jobs in Jeopardy and our ministry and Jeopardy, like if people start finding out about this, they might not like this message, they might, could make them feel uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we also felt the really strong conviction in all that, like people that we were partnering with. [SPEAKER_04]: to talk to them before and just say, hey, this is part of my story. [SPEAKER_04]: I want you to know what you're inviting in. [SPEAKER_04]: As an attendant person, like this is what you're inviting in. [SPEAKER_04]: And this is my past.

[SPEAKER_04]: I am not walking in that now, but this could be said about me and I want you to know as you're inviting us into your space. [SPEAKER_04]: So that became like a big part. [SPEAKER_04]: We're inviting friends in, we're dealing with it. [SPEAKER_01]: So kind of slowly draw the ears.

[SPEAKER_01]: We would, and then we kind of started being able to pass our people in different, sometimes it was different struggles, but where it felt appropriate, Jeff would share his story and you know, starting to see things unlock as we would share with people, especially as it relates to just generally anyone's struggle and what it looks like to deny yourself and

[SPEAKER_04]: And friends started like telling other friends, we gave permission and we're like, hey, if this ever helps somebody, they would share and they'd connect us. [SPEAKER_04]: So then we found ourselves like, pastors that I'm a pastor to church and like we found ourselves like in the church like just a lot of people like talking to people one on one about it and like having them in our home and trying to like counsel them through it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then there was also the element of watching sometimes from afar how many people in ministry in particular were falling because they had this hidden part of their lives. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's that was a huge catalyst. [SPEAKER_04]: There was like, there was a moment that there was a story that came out another one that of this is this, you know, it said that this was this guy's story and he was a ministry and it was a big

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, okay, that we have carried this like we have this miraculous story that only the Lord has done so it's his work, it's what he's done in us and we felt it felt this honoring to God to like hold it and to be like well we're not going to share that you know just because of what the risk of us being humiliated or shame or like [SPEAKER_04]: That doesn't live in us anymore, like as free people like we're not going to bow to shame We're not going to bow to him.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's like we're going to live in true freedom.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so We started discussing like what how could we actually share this and let more people hear about it to where We could really really I could relate to guys like I in the interesting thing is like I would just see guys As a worship leader to church and like I would look out and I'd be like I [SPEAKER_04]: I can assume some things in the room and I feel like I was like, hey, I don't know where these guys are going.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how they're living their life, but I don't want to air on the side of my story being quiet when I had hope to offer them. [SPEAKER_04]: If I'm supposed to be leading them, I need to be vulnerable and share my story and hopes that they could relate to someone and know that there is another way. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that it became more and more clear in the culture than we're living that our story was like, hey, with God, all things are possible, even in this.

[SPEAKER_04]: Now, not everybody was same-sex traction. [SPEAKER_04]: We're not saying, our story is your story, and that you should get married. [SPEAKER_04]: And you have to, you know, live this way that we've chosen, but we are saying, it's a possibility for you. [SPEAKER_04]: And what we want to hear, what we want people to hear is, this is a possibility for you. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, you could choose to fight this.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that's why we're trying with even open spaces to offer practical ways. [SPEAKER_04]: How do you fight that? [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we're talking about that. [SPEAKER_04]: And like, here's ways as a married couple, we figured it out with our friendships. [SPEAKER_04]: But that was a journey of many years.

[SPEAKER_04]: And like, and finally, when we got to the launching the podcast in earlier this year, [SPEAKER_04]: We finally, that it was just like, wow, even in that before we were like, are we really doing this? [SPEAKER_04]: Because we felt like a podcast was the best place for people to see our face. [SPEAKER_04]: Here are our story for not to feel like we're judging anyone, but to say, hey, we're not the convictors. [SPEAKER_04]: Holy Spirit is a convictor.

[SPEAKER_04]: We just want to tell you our story. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: And so when we got to that place of releasing it, it was like, even in that before, we were like, laying a bed, we're like, are we really doing it? [SPEAKER_04]: Like Jordan had it not in her stomach? [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, I don't, I'm like, are we doing this?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to battle with Gloria lives up, but ultimately we have a great life like why are we about to blow it up, but it was, it was worth it to us. [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. [SPEAKER_01]: And we wanted to see, we wanted people to see what was possible. [SPEAKER_01]: Like he said, we want to see, like this is, this can be possible with Jesus.

[SPEAKER_01]: and we also wanted to help normalize the conversation around sexuality in the church because the church on the whole just has not done a great job of being available to the culture to talk about this. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like we have nowhere to go. [SPEAKER_01]: There's not enough resources. [SPEAKER_04]: It's supposed to go where he's supposed to talk about it. [SPEAKER_01]: And just educate people too, educate people to help them be understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: someone else's struggle might not be at all your own, but anytime we learn about each other, our mercy increases exponentially. [SPEAKER_01]: And so we wanted to offer a resource that could potentially help do this thing. [SPEAKER_04]: That was a huge piece. [SPEAKER_04]: That was a really big piece because we were looking at the church in general and we're like, we need to help people understand that like this can be in someone's story and it's not

[SPEAKER_00]: worse than it's not grows like it's it's just another thing that someone's fighting if you're walking alongside someone who's struggling with something that you don't understand maybe here's some practical tools because you're walking alongside because what what I'm hearing in your story is like these pivotal moments where you brought it out into the light yeah and Jordan by God's grace you were just there to just be with him right in the midst which then you brought it out into the light more when you talk to the counselor like your

[SPEAKER_00]: And what I see you doing for people is you're recognizing that unfortunately, so often in the church, this gets still left in the dark, which means people continue to live into it because they're doing it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: It makes a lot of assumptions. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: How in the world would you have been able to withstand like do what you knew God was calling you to do if you were doing it entirely by yourself?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: No accountability. [SPEAKER_00]: If you had nobody knew what you were carrying. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: and so what I love about what you guys are doing is you're just creating a space to just put some light on it and allow people to permission to like, hey, you can come out of hiding right because that's actually where you're going to find freedom.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: And I so, and with you, I think there are some churches you're doing really well and there's still a lot that it's just really easy. [SPEAKER_00]: It's easier to leave it in the darkness because we don't understand it because we don't [SPEAKER_00]: know fully what it all is supposed to look like. [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have nice tidy box around it. [SPEAKER_00]: It rules around it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: But what I love is you guys are just giving permission. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what any of us do. [SPEAKER_00]: When we're willing to vulnerability share our stories, we give other people permission to be able to do the same. [SPEAKER_04]: That was, and that was a big piece of us saying, like, we can share our story. [SPEAKER_04]: And we can argue all day long on points and all that. [SPEAKER_04]: But you can't argue with someone's story.

[SPEAKER_02]: No. [SPEAKER_04]: You can't argue with the fact that [SPEAKER_04]: Without Jesus, without someone asking me questions, without my community, without surrender, I would have lived a very different lifestyle. [SPEAKER_04]: And me personally, that didn't seem like I can easily see that that would have maybe taken my life. [SPEAKER_04]: Because there were many moments of that, depression and what that would have looked like.

[SPEAKER_04]: But hope came through all of those other areas and bring it to the light. [SPEAKER_04]: And now our life is amazing and Yeah, it's not struggle, but a beautiful redemption story. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I want to I want to switch gears a little bit because we're talking about Kind of our moment and the church and how do we handle this and how do we bring this stuff out into the light?

[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously [SPEAKER_00]: uh, just sexuality is like just a topic of our time and our kids are hearing messages that are so counter to the scriptures, counter to the way of Jesus, they're having to learn how to coexist at school and love people well with people who believe very differently, we're as parents trying to help them navigate truth, but also love people who are not living exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking of like the time in which you were growing up and now our culture moment. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you wish would have been different when you were a little boy, when you were an adolescent, when you were a high schooler, when you're newly in college, like, what can we as parents do? [SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking of the parents who, [SPEAKER_00]: have a Jeff in their home, and maybe they don't even know it yet. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they have a little bit of an idea.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's right. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the kid has totally been open with them about it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Like what could that parent do to walk their kid through it in the way of Jesus, but love them well, be with them in it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a really big question. [SPEAKER_00]: You need to do a whole podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: like, uh, season on that topic.

[SPEAKER_04]: And we are like, it's been an interesting journey with our kids, you know, even then learning our story and sharing with, uh, you know, right now our kids are 11 10 and 6 and just trying to share even with our story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: But I do think to answer your question, I think that, um, the thing that we've been talking to a lot of parents have reached out to us and it's been a big, uh, [SPEAKER_04]: question of like, hey, my my son, my daughter told me this is they're struggling and they're I did any, what would you say?

[SPEAKER_04]: And there's a couple things that I would say and I want you are talking to so many women about it too, but I think not being afraid of the conversation is number one. [SPEAKER_04]: I think that if we live in a fear of like, well, once it's said like, for me, it was I like when I said it, I I didn't feel like I had a place to talk about it. [SPEAKER_04]: So, I think not being afraid of the conversation because the reality is our kids are hearing about it at school.

[SPEAKER_04]: They're bringing those questions home and I understand the tendency to like be like, I want to shut that down because I don't want them to take their minds down that path and think that this is another option. [SPEAKER_04]: But the reality is they're hearing it at school, so I want to address it at home. [SPEAKER_04]: And so like we have with our kids, we've tried to like speak and to sexuality from a very young age about how God made our bodies.

[SPEAKER_04]: And what we believe marriage is between a man and a woman and we've been speaking that over them and training them already so that when the time comes, we can say there is confusion in the world. [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, and that's sin is confusion. [SPEAKER_04]: And that's part of it. [SPEAKER_04]: But I think that the honesty, I think that when a child talks to their parent about it, we've got a lot of people who have said, like, hey, our kid told us, what do we do with that?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, we raise them in the church, we raise them in scripture. [SPEAKER_04]: But now they're saying this is what they're, you know, they're traction. [SPEAKER_04]: I would just say lean into them because if they're trusting you to tell, if they're telling you, you didn't lean into them and don't lean away. [SPEAKER_04]: Like ask the questions and even what you were saying Elizabeth, like even talking about like, you know, intuition is apparent.

[SPEAKER_04]: You can sometimes you're just kind of, you know, and you kind of wonder. [SPEAKER_04]: But I think like even in that intuition like that's I feel like the spirit gives us that and it's like a gift So like start asking some questions like if you if you're seeing an unhealthy relationship Don't shy away from it, but dive into it and ask questions about like what is this like how does this play out for you?

[SPEAKER_04]: And moving towards your child and not away from them out of fear, because we wanted to be able to trust the Lord as it has them and protecting them and maybe you think your words can mess something up, but I would say against that like the Lord is going to do what he's going to do and protect them and [SPEAKER_04]: But the last thing I'll say before you go is we have not experienced what it would be like for a child to come to us and say this.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we're speaking out of the best we can, but for me as a kid, what I wanted was what I was craving was somebody to ask me hard questions. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, you know, even as a teenager, like I probably would have like shut them down and then a punk in the way I answered it, but I would have remembered that they asked the question, I would have remembered that they saw something and it wasn't hidden.

[SPEAKER_04]: because I was living in, like, oh, no one knows this, it's all hidden. [SPEAKER_04]: But I would bet that there was some intuition happening in the home that if it would have been asked of me, it would have begun to bring that into the light at a very young age that whether or not I engage in the conversation, it would have been helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: And consciously or subconsciously, you would be hearing like your worth a level of discomfort for me, like for me to step into something that's uncomfortable, your worth it to me. [SPEAKER_01]: So even if it's tense or weird or awkward, it shows that child worth.

[SPEAKER_01]: And something else that we've kind of begun talking to parents about is, [SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of deciding from the beginning, as soon as you can, making a choice, what's your biggest priority as their parent in this season of their life? [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they're sharing this thing with you that might make you uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_01]: It might make you disillusioned or you might feel completely ill-equipped.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's your biggest priority as their parent in this moment? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to be [SPEAKER_01]: just a safe place for them. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to be the person that they will always talk to openly like just create that freedom decide what you really want and then kind of filter what happens from there through that lens. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to be that safe place and what is that going to look like?

[SPEAKER_01]: How is that going to inform your responses and your reactions and and then yeah, I think [SPEAKER_01]: Just more of like the, don't be afraid. [SPEAKER_01]: It is so, I think we think that we have, [SPEAKER_01]: We think we have so much power to derail or to inform or to make something happen, but just trusting the Holy Spirit is so, so big.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then being willing to, this is probably a huge one, and I think that you've seen this a lot too, is just being willing to share your own story. [SPEAKER_01]: and understand that that will unlock so much that will create so much safety for your child.

[SPEAKER_01]: If they're sharing this crazy deep thing with you, that's an amazing opportunity for you to be vulnerable with them and show like I might not know what it's like to walk in this, but let me share with you what I have walked through and what has been [SPEAKER_01]: even, you know, opening up your own childhood situations or things you want to have never shared with your kid because you didn't think they're ready to hear it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, let that be the opportunity where you just say, hey, this is my story and just watch the freedom that can come from that. [SPEAKER_03]: I have a very, first of all, very helpful.

[SPEAKER_03]: And [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let's appreciate the complexity, like then it's such a hard place to be and culturally, you know, anybody that's like listening to this and thinking, oh, you just need to accept your kids wherever they are like, of course, and yeah, like, of course, you need to love them. [SPEAKER_03]: I've already made the decision.

[SPEAKER_03]: if my if any of my kids come to me and say dad I'm struggling with this my first response is going to be love embrace understanding man this must be hard, but there's a ton of stats out there, especially when kids are very young, especially if they've been over exposed to internet pornography and or social media early.

[SPEAKER_03]: Stats are around 80% of those that profess their gay when they're in middle school actually grow up to actually be in loving heterosexual relationships totally because a lot of the hormones a lot of the brain I mean, there's so much going on so there's times when your kids come to you and they're like, I'm 10 and I'm gay and you're like what and I Would just say from from experts that are not me guys like Preston Spring really does a lot of great work in the space you know There's a lot of data to show like that is not

[SPEAKER_03]: Always the case. [SPEAKER_03]: No, that doesn't mean like in your story Jeff like you're like this is still with me, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but that doesn't but again, it's not to finding who you are, but my question or rather I think it important Differentiation that I really appreciate that you guys have said, but I want to note it because I think it actually means a lot You've said so many times same six attracted and you haven't said I'm gay And I think those are very important identity. [SPEAKER_03]: It's right statements. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah [SPEAKER_03]: I would love to hear more about that.

[SPEAKER_03]: The importance of not saying I'm gay versus I'm saying sex attractive because I know there's a lot there and I don't have a lot to say, but I want to just kind of teed that out. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'll say this.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think for me where I land and what I've uh, [SPEAKER_04]: Coming to understand is that, if I were to say that I was gay, that is an identity issue that all of a sudden now I put myself in identifying as something that is against what the Lord I feel like he has put in me.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, I don't say that I'm gay, I say that I'm saying same sex attracted, [SPEAKER_04]: but that is because I am attracted to guys, but the Lord also is redeeming even in that, like the fact that being with Jordan for so long, I'm attracted to Jordan. [SPEAKER_04]: It is a cultivating of a new way for me, and if I were to keep claiming an identity that is not my [SPEAKER_04]: a gay man. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so where I would never say that about myself, you know, and it's an interesting thing because it's terminology, but I do think the way we talk to ourselves is the way we start living and the way we start believing about ourselves. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: So even with the same sex attraction, I talk about that and more publicly now and we're doing that because of like helping people understand.

[SPEAKER_04]: But it's not even something that I really, I'm not like day to day talking about [SPEAKER_04]: But it's an identity issued for me that I don't want to claim or live in, that I'm a gay man, like that's, I don't say that. [SPEAKER_04]: So it's a very different distinction between. [SPEAKER_04]: And it really does weigh into how I feel like if I was saying that, my mind would start thinking differently about myself.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I would start living a certain way or questioning a lot more. [SPEAKER_04]: It's amazing. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I think too for clarity, I think some people might find it helpful when you do say same sex attracted and I'm attracted to guys, I think some people might need some clarity around like that's that would be your area of temptation. [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're going to be tempted towards sinful behavior, that is one way that enemy will come and that your your proclivities, you know, towards that kind of temptation. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I think for all of, even if you just think about the mind and the brain and how it works, if we're just going to count, if we, it's not helpful or healthy for us to just go around identifying, by our, our temptations.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not, yeah, it's not, hopefully, like helpful for us to just like, well, I, you know, I'm Jordan and I am an anxious person. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not the same thing, but it is, you know, it kind of helps, I think it's cool. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think that's a great way to say. [SPEAKER_04]: Wow. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: And how often with those things do we say, I struggle with anxiety. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't struggle with pride.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't say I am anxiety. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: I am right. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's on my whole person. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: But are those things that anybody can struggle with? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and we use that terminology like a struggle. [SPEAKER_04]: I fight. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's never like I'm just sitting in the same sex track like it's like I'm fighting against it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm struggling with it, but like that's great point. [SPEAKER_03]: I wanna highlight that you guys have been given a lot of responsibility, a lot of gifting. [SPEAKER_03]: You're telling this part of your story and we're honing in on this aspect of your life. [SPEAKER_03]: But you guys are songwriters, you are also worship leaders, you also lead in one of the most influential churches in the country and in the world. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's no small deal.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm highlighting that just to simply say like, I wanna, for anyone that's like, can God use me in my struggles? [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what your version of use you is, but I think your story is one of encouragement that in brokenness and honesty and transparency, God can use all of us, no matter how broken to continue to, but fulfill his kingdom in any capacity. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And stage size or church size, who gives a rip?

[SPEAKER_03]: Nobody cares about that. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it, well, I mean, certain people do and they're usually unhealthy folks. [UNKNOWN]: But [SPEAKER_03]: What I mean is talk about that, you're going to have a whole conversation about that, but what I'm trying to highlight is that at the end of the day, if you're sitting around going, can God use me if I struggle with this? [SPEAKER_03]: My question that my therapist asked me was like, well, is God using you?

[SPEAKER_03]: And if the answer is yes, I think the answer is yes, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Like can we have deep struggles and still be used by God? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the answer is yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now that doesn't mean that your sin doesn't find you out destroy you kill you all the things that could very much happen Yes, but I do think it's just maybe to give hope that that you guys are in this space of like It's the active tension this side of heaven things are painful and hard and things are beautiful Yes, and living in that tension is just this unique dynamic I'd love to know what you guys would say to anyone this listening to this and saying wow

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm struggling with this, I have struggled with this, and few people know, my spouse doesn't know. [SPEAKER_03]: How do you, what would you just even encourage? [SPEAKER_03]: What are some things that you would say? [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, this is a good first step and it can be very, whatever level, but it's one here.

[SPEAKER_03]: What's a good first step to begin the process of talking about if you, or if you're a person listening to the struggles of same sex attraction, or some good first steps? [SPEAKER_04]: that's great. [SPEAKER_04]: I would say you know if you think about it long enough you can find the person in your life that's the most safe and trusted person. [SPEAKER_04]: And for me I was always looking for that like who is that person there?

[SPEAKER_04]: I could actually say who's a person that's not going to hit then I'm not watching share and gossip about people or talk about everyone. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that was Jordan. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, it was like, he was my safest place. [SPEAKER_04]: So finding the safest person and then actually being talking, I don't know, not everyone is going to a podcast. [SPEAKER_04]: No, we don't need that. [SPEAKER_04]: We're just trying to break the door open.

[SPEAKER_04]: But what we are trying to say is like, you have a trusted person to reach out to. [SPEAKER_04]: And I would speak, I don't want you to speak on the side of the person that receives the information. [SPEAKER_04]: Because, [SPEAKER_04]: as somebody who needed that place, I needed to be able to tell one person.

[SPEAKER_04]: And what we have seen even in, like through open spaces and what has been unbelievable for us, is so many marriages of, hey, you know, this was our story we never talked about it. [SPEAKER_04]: My husband told me for the first time that he has same sex attracted after listening to this. [SPEAKER_04]: And that could be scary. [SPEAKER_04]: That's we understand how complex all that is.

[SPEAKER_04]: And when you're in marriage and if you didn't know this or like, but I think there is what we hope that people would do would be comfortable enough to share their story.

[SPEAKER_04]: And not be shamed by their story, but step into the light, share with the one person and say, and that be the thing, but then I want to you to speak because this is what you have done as well as like as the person receiving that information, this spouse, the, yes, the trusted friend, what would you say into when they do tell them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, one thing that we've talked about a lot and that I have learned that, you know, wasn't even intentional at first, but again, the Holy Spirit for sure was in the moment is when someone does share something with you, consider, you know, and sometimes it's just, I mean, it has to be this like split second decision. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes. [SPEAKER_01]: When you could be completely shocked, thrown off, but your initial reaction and response is, [SPEAKER_01]: massive.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're not always going to get it right, and there is absolutely grace for that, but even if it's just a, I love you so much. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for telling me that. [SPEAKER_01]: That had to be so hard. [SPEAKER_01]: Just thinking about how does your face look? [SPEAKER_01]: What's your body language?

[SPEAKER_01]: But even I think it practically speaking what we can all be practicing is being in how to be a [SPEAKER_01]: understanding that, you know, it quite simply, I think this is something we can be teaching our kids from an early age as like, when someone shares something with you, that's their story to tell. [SPEAKER_01]: That's something that they have chosen to trust you with, and so now that it's not your story to tell.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so even learning how to be trustworthy and just learning how to hold someone's story as a sacred treasure that they have gifted you with but it's not yours to give to everybody else. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think just practicing and that there were just people in my life that were that modeled that and that I really admired and so. [SPEAKER_01]: I think I learned, and you learned from being burned by people who don't hold your story with, you know, with, with honor and respect.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm only going to talk to someone, you know, if, if this is a person who's like, hey, so and so told me this, they told me not to tell anybody that so please don't tell anybody I'm like, you shouldn't be telling me.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's a red flag, but I think that we can begin to practice that just as friends, as, you know, in parenting training our kids, this is sacred, this is something we can hold and like, if they haven't given you permission, then it's not, it's not your just to tell. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that what we don't understand fully is that that helps people [SPEAKER_01]: learn to see you as a safe place. [SPEAKER_01]: I've never heard you gossip about people.

[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't heard you share information that you knew. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think you might be a safe space for me. [SPEAKER_01]: I think I might be able to trust that you're going to hold this with care. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that those are things that are very easy, it's it's it's actually easy to not share information.

[SPEAKER_04]: We want to, you know, you kind of have to battle with like, like, oh, it's interesting, you know what, you know what, you know, I don't want to do anything, but it's learning how to give our mouth shut. [SPEAKER_04]: I know it's like a lot of it's simple, simply said, very hard to live out. [SPEAKER_04]: I do want to say to, after telling someone, Christian counseling helped me a ton.

[SPEAKER_04]: I need a counselor to process with, but I needed someone, and so in the pre-interview, I always like when I find a count new counselor as we've moved and had to do that, I always say, are you coming from this from a biblical view? [SPEAKER_04]: And how will you counsel me? [SPEAKER_04]: Because we actually went to a counselor who, [SPEAKER_04]: We didn't do that and two two sessions and she's like you think you should be living this way and I was like We're out.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because I don't need somebody telling me that I'm gonna live that way because I've already chosen What I'm gonna do. [SPEAKER_04]: I need I need affirmation scriptural that backs up what we are so like [SPEAKER_04]: The Christian counseling event community has been the greatest thing for us.

[SPEAKER_04]: We have, I meet with two guys, Jordan meets with their six of us, three couples, Jordan meets with the two girls and that's every week and they asked me the hard questions where did you struggle this week and did you go anywhere that you should have gone?

[SPEAKER_04]: The questions that, you know, just talking about where we are that week, and it helps me every single week just kind of reaccompanied and not be too far off of like, you know, that I'm always one step away from making a stupid decision. [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, we back to that. [SPEAKER_03]: We actually all are. [SPEAKER_03]: So I want to highlight that we can all scrib our lives as one of the decisions.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you don't get the unique one on that one, but we all get that one. [SPEAKER_03]: I do want to ask a question, this is not a pivot, but more of just a, so we've been talking about the same sex reaction, we've been talking about Jeff, how that is manifested, how that's lifting your life. [SPEAKER_03]: And this could be exponentially personal and exponentially challenging dance, but Jordan, I want to ask you something.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking of your woman, you've been waiting your whole life to get married, you get married to this guy, and there's got to be a part of this for you, I'd imagine, where you're like, I want him [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I also know he he does, but at the same time I can only imagine for you. [SPEAKER_03]: There's a part of that where you go There's maybe a sting there now again. [SPEAKER_03]: I know this is like I don't want to project.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to I don't want to cry, but I'm also like thinking I'm just thinking for the woman that's listening [SPEAKER_03]: Not only how you speak to that woman, but what do you do with that? [SPEAKER_03]: Because you are equally valued in love, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And equally deserving of love, just like just deserving of love.

[SPEAKER_03]: And and you try to meet each other in that, but at the very same time, there's that part where it's like, am I loved in the same way that I would be, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just trying to hopefully just shed light on the questions that probably are illuminating in your head. [SPEAKER_03]: And so feel free to go [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great question.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm glad I'm really glad you asked because I do think that that I'm so happy to talk about this. [SPEAKER_01]: It's been a journey for me. [SPEAKER_01]: And even in more recent years, I've even learned about more deeper layers that have existed for me that I wasn't always aware of.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think, yeah, it was challenging from the beginning to kind of have to process what if I just imagined this, like you said, like I imagine this certain type of attraction and the certain type of physical intimacy and like that it would look a certain way. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I had to like, [SPEAKER_01]: deal with that and kind of like realize like, okay, that's not going to exist for me in this specific way. [SPEAKER_01]: So I had to kind of come to terms with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And at first, I thought just acknowledging it was enough. [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought like, okay, yes, this might be somewhat disappointing. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: And it could lead, it could lend some what to insecurity. [SPEAKER_01]: But then there was this other piece that I would kind of like settle into, that I would just sort of make into like a, like a fine element of like, I'm the only woman he's attracted to. [SPEAKER_01]: Literally the only one.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's no chance that there's any other one. [SPEAKER_01]: It's turned in that way, you know, for myself. [SPEAKER_04]: That's, I mean, so fun. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I just kind of became this thing of like, having to realize the uniqueness and the beauty of our particular. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: individual connection, story, relationship, and every element and like just learn to be to value that and to find the beauty in that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then, and this is this kind of dives into even some of my own just deeper struggles of like, [SPEAKER_01]: Um, just walls that I had built up in my, in my processing of like not wanting to, I don't know, wanting to be someone who could easily forgive and easily accept and um, just wanting that to be who I was, but then realizing like, oh, I, I kind of shut this whole thing off of like,

[SPEAKER_01]: the ability to grieve something that I lost, and I think I thought for a while that that would be dishonoring to Jeff or even to the Lord. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, Lord, you've given me this beautiful redemption story. [SPEAKER_01]: Why should I waste time worrying about what I didn't get when we've got this great thing?

[SPEAKER_01]: And through the help of counseling and like really digging into that, realizing like it's okay [SPEAKER_01]: let yourself sit in some grief for what you wanted and didn't get. [SPEAKER_01]: Not because it's like not in a selfish space, but just like being able to process that and move through it. [SPEAKER_01]: So I had to and that was more recent of like really being able to say like this was hard and that was like that was unfortunate in a way.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't change anything about our story. [SPEAKER_01]: I would never want to be married to anyone else. [SPEAKER_01]: I want what we have. [SPEAKER_01]: But I also had to learn through a long process of time that it was okay for me to grieve.

[SPEAKER_01]: And to also, and the normalizing sense, like we all have to, we all have to kind of normalizing in a sense of like, other women might have [SPEAKER_01]: wish that there has been was more empathetic, or wish that there has been communicated more verbally, or wish that there has been was more gentle with their kids. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, so there's so many things to normalize it as well. [SPEAKER_01]: Like we all have to kind of be able to grieve.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, well, I love my husband. [SPEAKER_01]: I love my marriage. [SPEAKER_01]: These are the ways that it isn't what I thought. [SPEAKER_01]: And I can acknowledge that deal with that and then kind of move forward. [SPEAKER_03]: So well said, I want to highlight for anyone listening that if you're listening to this [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they didn't mention this and they didn't know once this. [SPEAKER_03]: This is Jeff and Jordan story. [SPEAKER_03]: And this is their situation.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it will not be the carbon copy of your story. [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: And so if you're like trying to find like they didn't mention about this and then well, they should be able to live freely into who got made them and it

[SPEAKER_03]: all these things are they born with it or not like we're not talking about that on purpose and the reason I'm saying that is because we get lost in the weeds and details of that and we're not interested in talking about where it all started we're interested in saying when this is our experience yes what does the Lord do what can it look like and what's possible and you guys are giving a vision and our hope today isn't to get in the weeds so if you're like all of

[SPEAKER_03]: That's it. [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to highlight you guys are giving a picture of what could be so much of our Generation lacks models and we just don't have models of what it looks like I think there's a lot of couples right now that go I want this. [SPEAKER_03]: What does it look like and we're saying [SPEAKER_03]: Check out open spaces. [SPEAKER_03]: I think you're giving people a model of what it can look like Again, you're so honest. [SPEAKER_03]: It's messy.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not easy. [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's a lot of pains or you just said there's a lot of pains I've like but then again, there's pain in every marriage that every dynamic and so I think if we can get out of there are heads that like well Because it's different than maybe what is normal then it's bad. [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's not bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just different and you guys giving a model to what this might look like Yeah [SPEAKER_03]: And so I just want, we want to say thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for doing this. [SPEAKER_03]: Saying that we're proud of you as an understatement. [SPEAKER_03]: We just are in your corner. [SPEAKER_03]: We're championing you guys. [SPEAKER_03]: And what you're doing is beautiful. [SPEAKER_03]: And I know it's hard and it's vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for valuing the conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And putting value on talking about it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's massive. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I want to say that too. [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to say thank you all for like actually not being afraid what we're just talking about not being afraid of not talking about this and my actually asking questions and like as Jordan or now open books to like try to help people.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's people like y'all that are willing to like dive into the space ask questions. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and and figure it out together and like it's it's a beautiful thing and I'm we're so grateful for that. [SPEAKER_03]: really. [SPEAKER_03]: So where can people find you? [SPEAKER_03]: Tell us what to find all your things. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So open spaces. [SPEAKER_04]: It is a podcast that it is a nonprofit that we started.

[SPEAKER_04]: We have a lot of dreams and visions of what that will turn into, but we ultimately are just trying to [SPEAKER_04]: have space to talk about heart things and open people's eyes to what is actually happening in the world. [SPEAKER_04]: And hopeful that we can have these conversations and point people to Jesus and remind people what is possible. [SPEAKER_04]: But they can find us on all platforms for podcasts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Open spaces podcast on Instagram and yeah open spaces podcast on Instagram. [SPEAKER_03]: We'll have it on the show. [SPEAKER_03]: So you just like it. [SPEAKER_03]: You will you can have that. [SPEAKER_03]: But that's right website open spaces dot com dot org where we at open spaces podcast dot com. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, there you go. [SPEAKER_03]: Perfect. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, again, having to show us. [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: This has been a gift. [SPEAKER_03]: Anything and a treasure. [SPEAKER_03]: I think so much of the conversation that we had today. [SPEAKER_03]: Our purpose is to just perpetuate good conversation and perpetuate the fact that vulnerability and honesty is actually The safest place to be really right. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean now not everyone can hold that. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to highlight not everyone can hold that well But I'm just saying in general.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's yes, there's a lot of fear around being honest, and I think there's a lot of actual That's the lie of the enemy. [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a lot of freedom around being honest not fear and so if we can step into the freedom Let's do it. [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, yeah, I [SPEAKER_03]: Jeff and Jordan, thank you for jumping in so much. [SPEAKER_03]: This is definitely the last time we're going to have lots more conversations.

[SPEAKER_03]: And since we're sharing a mic, Elizabeth, you want to say anything else? [SPEAKER_00]: I think you wrapped us as well. [SPEAKER_00]: Wrap us up well. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just so thankful for you guys. [SPEAKER_00]: And am I right to assume that if anybody listening is like, I have more questions. [SPEAKER_00]: I am dealing with the situation. [SPEAKER_00]: I would love their advice. [SPEAKER_00]: You guys have like an email or something. [SPEAKER_00]: All of it, just messages.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in the website, you can get connected. [SPEAKER_00]: The people could reach out. [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_04]: He's been talking a lot of people that way and connected to people that way and trying to answer as many questions. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we need just so much more of that of people being like, where do I go to just ask the questions that are actually a part of my everyday life, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Truly. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: We had. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we did one. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: We've done one. [SPEAKER_04]: All right. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to do a hundred more. [SPEAKER_03]: Very well. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, very well. [SPEAKER_04]: The questions because it's helpful to know where people are. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm going to need to know and yes, kids and all the same questions to their email.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's what we're going to say. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there you go. [SPEAKER_03]: That is. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, guys. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.