Erich Kruschitz - Navigating Corporate Exploration

Our guest today speaks from deep experience and adds even more detail to the case study that he wrote in the Corporate Explorer field book. Before I introduce our guest, I want to thank our sponsor of the Corporate Explorer series, Wazoku. Wazoku, which means great idea in Swahili, empowers large organizations To create effective sustainable innovation ecosystems to both exploit and to explore.

It does this through intelligent enterprise software that connects and harnesses the power of employees supplier startups. Universities and the unique wazoku crowd of over seven hundred thousand global problem solvers, wazoku calls this connected collective intelligence and you can find our friends at wazoku at www. wazoku.

com, so welcome to today's episode of the corporate explorer series and one called, The explore unit how to build a team for exploration and we are joined by a seasoned corporate explorer who's done just that and has all the scar tissues and all the warts to prove exactly what he's done, what is gonna save you the trouble and is gonna share how to do it welcome to the show CEO of Mavie next Erich crochet welcome to the show

an even better episode today i really enjoyed our conversation and we're gonna repeat that with more today so Erich i thought we'd start before sharing your experience of building a team and all the permutations that go with that, that maybe you give us a brief overview of how you got to here and particularly how in twenty twenty UNIQA.

I'm 15 years with the same company, which is quite unusual in today's times, and second of all The UNIQA board, the board of this insurance company, insurance group I'm with for this 15 years, they always put me where there's either something to fix or something to build new. That's the stuff I. So far, I did well. Let's see for the future. And I really enjoy as well. My background actually is asset management, risk management. That's where I'm coming from.

So my first managerial role at UNIQA was, overhauling or building a new risk management department after the financial crisis. So after we had more than 200 year old company, first loss in 200 years, Greek government debt crisis. And at that time I was building up this, this risk management unit new, which was really, really cool task and challenge. After that, my boss became CFO. He used to be the chief risk officer on the board. And now then he became finance and risk officer.

Came to me and said, Erichh, the finance department is not working. We have to completely restructure this department. The quarterly reporting doesn't work. We have to roll out ERP systems, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, cool. One of the largest and most important departments in the group. I was quite young back then, beginning of thirties, so it was a big honor. And I said, okay, I, let me try it.

And then I really, five years built this team there, restructured the finance department in a way together with this team, which worked really, really well, luckily. Yeah. And after four or five years turned out now it works. And, then I also felt, okay, I have to move on my own because the people around me Technically better than me and the processes were fine. So what I figured back then was that, the UNIQA is a, it's a general insurance company.

So we offer all kinds of insurance products in Austria and Eastern Europe. So I think it's. 17 or 18 countries, if I'm not mistaken. And we always say from Geneva to Ukraine, that's the region where we are active. And one thing that, that, that always yeah, what was obvious to me or was interesting to me is that we are actually very strong health insurer as well, especially in Austria. And we also have a lot of healthcare assets. So we have, we own hospitals, we have doctors networks and so on.

And at that time. Again, to become boring for me in finance way, I get the opportunity to do an executive MBA at INSEAD in Fontainebleau and they sent me like all over the world, Singapore, China, Silicon Valley, France, of course. And whenever I was , telling the story of UNIQA, everybody said, that's so cool. You guys have health assets and you're an insurance company. Why don't you? And there's this mega trend in healthcare, right?

Prevention and many things happening almost in all the countries. Why don't you make more out of this? So I came back, started to talk to my board and say, Hey, that's actually something that's really interesting. Couldn't we do something around this? And finally, at the same time, my CEO, my now boss Andreas Brandstetter He came back from a kind of an executive education he did with his team in at Harvard Business School with the idea of ambidexterity.

So he got to know Mike Tushman there and Charles O'Reilly and Andy Binns and so on. And he, , he almost had exactly the same idea as me, just more, more structured. And that's our new strategy. We're building a new strategy, ambidexterity. And our exploration topic is healthcare. And the next thing I can remember is that I was alone in a newly founded company. And the goal was to build up or to get a hundred million in revenues from healthcare until the end of 25.

So that, that's how it all started

And that's obviously stimulated your mind, your leadership team, and you did something with it, but magnificent story. And the fact that you're willing to act and act before you need to as well is really interesting. There's one thing before we get into the content of this book that dawned on me was firstly Unico's.

Willingness to create a fighter brand from within that that takes huge bravery from a leadership team that's doing well so when the organization is doing well to still have the foresight to go it's not gonna always last this way what are the characteristics that you saw. Of the team and your colleagues and yourself that gave that willingness was it some crisis on the horizon or was it just a willingness to go again before a crisis arises.

Yeah. As you say, like when he's asking, he's also listening and then thinking, how can I further develop this company? And that's a very, you would need to know him. It's a very, very unique character who really you steps up and says, okay, this is what we need to do. And there was no like life threatening thing or pain or whatever. So it really, it is a situation where we are actually quite healthy. I think we're making around 300 million in profits per year.

That's not like the best company in the world, but it's, you can get quite comfortable with it, especially as an insurance company, but you have these characters, right? You have Andreas there. He became CEO very early, very, very young. And then you have his, he picked his management team who has a similar mindset.

And I think I'm, I'm really, I'm super lucky and super happy that I had this environment because without this environment and without the support and this vision from the top management, it wouldn't have worked, right? So I could have done whatever I wanted. It wouldn't have worked. And that even now, like this morning, 8am in the morning, once a week I have one hour with with, with Andreas, right? And we're discussing how can we further develop this? He has his very specific ideas.

He's, he's also make like pressuring me to a certain extent, but it's a good thing because he wants progress there. He really stands up for the topic, but he's even after almost five years, he's still totally, totally, totally. like committed to it. And, without that, as I said, I think it would not work. Yeah. Of course I also have to deliver and execute.

He has to back it in all the board meetings in like, I don't know, the annual budgeting discussions to defend my budget, to give me the freedom and independence we need as a team. If, he and his management team wouldn't believe in the topic of Mavie. I think we would die quite, quite quickly and it would have never be born, so to say. So I think that that's the main thing. Of course, there are a thousand things afterwards to execute.

And I cannot even say that I know how to do it because you have to ask me again end of 25 if we were really successful. So we are still on the way. But that's the basis. I think that's really, and you need this kind of character.

You know when you go to an event and you see the CEO talking about some innovation that they've had and you can tell they actually don't know anything about it because they didn't do any of the work they didn't have a weekly call with Erichh in their company, to understand to really understand that they didn't go away and do a corporate education program to really understand that innovation, and that piece you say the characteristics that willingness to learn that willingness

to try things, the willingness to risk things, But also concurrently de risking them is so rare and so difficult to actually identify from the outside. You only actually know it when you're working for somebody. So I love that characteristic that you're talking about, but it actually is a nice segue for the very first role.

If you can remember back to towards all the twists in the road that you've had to get to where you are today, starting off with Mavie next or Sanus X as it was back then, defining the purpose and the scope and the Why. So trying to shape this originally, cause, cause what, what an awful lot of entrepreneurs or corporate explorers forget is that.

there's a why for you firstly for doing it there's a why then from the parent company to understand what you're doing then there's a why for the employees that you're gonna on board and then there's a why, for the customers for the public to understand as well so you have to actually get all those different whys in place and this is as you say in the book the very first step is to define this way, maybe you'll tell us about that before we get into the team then behind that why

I think he told me once he did it on the plane when just writing it on a piece of paper. Two things, he did two things. Yeah. One thing , he gave it a frame also that a narrative, let's call it a narrative, where is it actually what we're doing. We are moving from the insurance industry already quite strong insurance. You're going to get a better insurance, even more efficient.

That's important because when I want to get strong and what we're doing, but we are broadening the scope and from moving from the insurance industry into the caring industry. And it's just, it's a simple sentence, but I still think it gives people some kind of perspective to understand that the caring industry is much bigger than the insurance industry. We still will do what we did because we care about people when they have any kind of issues.

But we do much more, especially in the healthcare area. We also help them with their health prevention and so on and so forth, whatever Mavie is currently doing. So that gave them, there was a lot more behind it. He even wrote a manifesto, like a manifesto. Like I think it was only a two page or so, where he describes his version of this story to first the management team. I think it was the top 80 or so that we gathered together or the pundits, something like this. And then to the broader.

UNIQA group of people like 14, 000 employees and in his town halls and so on. And that was super important to onboard the people and to get them on the journey. And also with this top 80 last sentence on this one, like after being, what was it? I think we started in November, December, 2009, 18, if I'm not mistaken.

And I think in June, 2019, we brought together the top 18 of the like the group for one week where we really worked with Mike Tushman, Andy Pins, Jasso Riley, we brought them to HBS and only worked on this topic of ambidexterity, like really focused, like we were living together in little houses on the campus and so on. And we've worked on both. Yeah. We worked on exploitation, how to get better than operational excellence. Super important for us. That's the core.

That's where we are coming from. That's where. Also our profits need to be sustained, but we also worked on explore and what's actually the goal there. And then this narrative also became more than a narrative, but also got kind of financial goals that I mentioned before. So what do we actually want to achieve as a group? Because you also have investors. We are a stock listed company. We have to tell the people what we're doing with the, with the money of our shareholders.

And and then we came up with these things. Okay. We want to scale it first and then we turn it around to make it profitable, but first it has to have a decent size. So we said, okay, then, back then it wasn't even clear that I will do it, but we said Mavie, not the name back then, but like this exploration unit should have at least a hundred million revenue per end of 25. It's not a, like a scientifically derived number. But it has some context. Yeah, we are 8 billion revenue group.

100 million is not, it's still tiny within the group, but it has a certain size where you see now it becomes a real business, which is also relevant within this huge group. And you can further develop it later. But if it's smaller than that, it's really not interesting, either for our shareholders or any other stakeholders that we have. So that was a really important one to get started and like to onboard the team. And then all the other stuff, like how do we, the why to the team?

Of course, first we had to found the company and then we defined as a new team, as a Mavie team or back then as a X team, we tried to define, okay, what's, what's actually important to us as a team. Yeah. Then we even did things like, which might sound a little bit silly. Weird, but we, we stopped talking about UNIQA, for example, we called them our shareholders. Yeah. We said we have to deliver to them because they, if they're funding us, they're giving us the opportunity to change something.

So that helped us, for example, yeah. Because otherwise people always get trapped into this corporate kind of thinking. I have to. talk to this function, that function, we have shareholders and we are separate company and we have to fulfill this mission. And on a purpose level, I think that was rather easy. I would even say that we worked it out with the whole team and said, okay, what are actually the main values that we should work on, but like, what do we want to achieve?

And then this vision came out. It sounds a little bit fuzzy, but still, it's very important for us. We, we want to, we want to create a healthier society. That's what, what we have as a headline there. And we say, okay, when we go out in 2025 or even then later on in 2030. And we like observed that the people in the markets where we are active, Austria, Eastern Europe, currently it's mainly Austria, Poland, Germany.

We really want to be part of a, of a kind of a movement that brings, that makes people healthier and it should be visible and you could actually feel it when you're out there. I think that's still. Even though we are really hiring a lot of technical experts from all over the globe with great education, much smarter than me by far, really, that's very important to them. Yeah, and that's one of the, why would you, why would you ever come?

Like, if you could work everywhere, why would you ever come to Vienna and work for a subsidiary of a central European insurance company? So there must be something and it's not salary that I can tell you. I think we are, we are, we are paying fair. But like they couldn't make much more money somewhere else. So, and, and that, but in the beginning I said that that was actually, that that was the easy part because the team somehow defined it itself.

It was more in our management team, it was more the tasks to really, take it and really then live it

Remove that kind of awesome them it means that she there helping us and i think that's a huge problem when it comes to ambidexterity that a lot of times you see each other as the enemy and like there are there stuck in the ways we're gonna disrupt them, and it becomes awesome them so that that's a really really important insight, what are you talking about there Erich you can't compete with wages so therefore the why needs to be important.

But also as you told me in a prep call so does the personalities of that team so you you need somebody who's more open to rescue need somebody who's more curious somebody who's a builder in the early days, and as well talk as we progress through this episode that changes as the business changes as well so let's launch into what we talked about the last day.

Building the team the different skills and personalities that are needed to build a team and then we'll go into how that changes as the company evolves.

That means like in the very beginning it was a lot about ideation, incubation being creative, trying things to a certain extent also than some, even now, but more often really failing on things and learn and then go to the next. And that, of course, ask for very specific people. Like one example is that, I think when I, when I started asked people at UNIQA who wants to join this new company, and of course it was a very cool thing because it's a new thing. We're investing it's innovation.

So I had really many, I think, 20, 30 applications to, to, to join the company. And I tried to be really restrictive. So I only took, I think, 10 people, if I'm not mistaken, and I gave them really hurdles. I said, you have to quit your job at the insurance company, which is not a small thing because you're losing a lot of benefits and perks and all that. And you start with a new company, which has a completely different setup without the perks. So you really have to be willing to do that.

So I ended up with nine people from, from, from the core business. And I have to say like all really good people, like really successful people. Like one of them was, for example, our chief economist. So smart people. And from this, this group, 10, nine people, 10, including me, besides me, there's only one person left, so like almost all of them turned out, didn't really feel comfortable in this environment.

So after one or two, one and a half years, we have, we had to let go of all of them because it was more like their kind of working way of working was different, right? They came from a corporate, they were more like, okay, tell me what to do. And I will deliver, I will work really hard. But in this case, it wasn't about telling them what to do. I was about.

They have to find a way to solve problems, which I also didn't have any answers, which is completely different than working in a, in a, in an established corporate. So that didn't work out. We got mostly younger people. I would say sometimes also former entrepreneurs who failed or who just wanted to not run their own company who had an exit or something. So that helped in the beginning.

And then what happened after two years, maybe two and a half years, we got successful, which is actually cool on the one hand. So we, we had then two, three companies that we either acquired or where we build services on our own and which, overcame this phase of experimentation. So I think the example that I made in our, in our conversation last week was we had a company which has a business model. In this case, it was employee health. So we already also acquired the company as a basis for that.

We were market leader in Austria in this area. And then we took the same people who actually were experimenting before ideation incubation and so on, but not to experiment with a new service, but to implement a a CRM system, custom relationship management, like a software project, like literally it was like, it's nothing new, right? It's a, it's a, it's a proven process. How to implement is a project and like this.

The software project is not like our experiments, which cost around 5, maybe 15, 000 euros. It had a price tag of several hundred thousand euros. And, these people, they were not used to do project management. So they, they started, they just tested. And then after six months we found out it doesn't work at all because we don't have a plan how to implement the CIM. And we like. We burned a lot of money, which we shouldn't have burned, to be honest. Yeah, but now I can talk about it.

Yeah, it's, it's, I guess fine. So, yeah.

Yeah. And then we decided together as a leadership team, okay, for these tasks, when companies actually get mature or services, and we really come into this scaling phase, we mostly need different. people, different skills, different processes, and we have to change this all over. So we really change like now, nowadays, we have teams who are only doing ideation at incubation.

And very rarely, they also, if an idea works, they also go into the next phase, but they are handing it like literally over to other teams. As you can, now we are growing this company, now we're growing the service. Please take it. We have, we have different people who do that. Sometimes people can do both, yeah but very early, at least in our case, and maybe somebody had different experience and it was a, it was a painful, but super important learning.

I still think, thankfully, we learned it quite early before a lot more happened. But it's just something where I realized, okay, not every, like not, you have to use the people, but really their strengths are. And like, when B, when you're building something like this from scratch, You probably have to use different teams in different settings. The other thing we do now, I think even a little bit more often than in the past. So we do every quarter we do, what we call a reset week.

We still work according to objectives and key results because it helps us to keep focus. I think I also wrote about it in the book. It's a bit polarizing. Some people say now it's not working for innovation processes. For us, it worked well because it gave us this focus and our OKR cycles are mostly three months. Not in every case. We are not, we are not, we are pragmatic about it.

And after the three months we actually take The whole company for a reset week where every team really discusses within the team, are we still doing the right things? Do we still have the right setup based on the learnings in the last three months? Is it still paying into this healthcare society vision? Is it also paying into this financial goal that we are having? And then the teams come back themselves presenting to the leadership team or actually to everyone.

It's an open meeting what their findings are. And if they want to, Either pivot or continue as they're working or stop the team. Yeah, very rarely it happens that they want to stop their own team. But but the discussion is the important thing. And then with all these insights that we get from the, from, from all our teams, we, we have now three before that, before people leadership team, we lock ourselves for one day.

into some external place outside the office and, and, define the set up more or less for the next three months. And we also can stop things. We can put teams differently together. So with all the content, we try to do this every three months, in order not to run too long in old patterns and, Because things are moving quite fast, so that's one of the tools we are using in our way of working and how to set the teams together, simply of this learning that we had in the

You've noticed this before as a pattern cause you've seen it now that once you move to implementing it it system like a syrian system it's a milestone it's a signal that this is changing now that the explorer type character or personalities inside the company are gonna get it, if you feed here or they're gonna feel like it's changing and you might have some flight risks people leaving the company as well i thought that was an important insight.

And we are very open with our people. So currently we are now in a phase where we, your skills, I'm not fitting perfectly, and then we are trying to. talk with the people very openly if they still feel like they can make a difference at the, in the team and to feel like really want to perform and work with us. And we also give them a very open feedback. So actually we have also, quite a high rate of, of, of turnover in the team.

I think it's between 15 and 20%, mostly initially from our side in a I have to ask the team, but if I, if I look at it and I'm talking a lot to them in a, in a kind of a positive way, because everyone knows, okay, I can really like deliver and I can really perform here. And as soon as somebody, or as soon as I'm not performing a hundred percent, I will also know there will be no surprises. I will always get good feedback and develop.

And they will also help me to find something else or something new. in terms of not the best fit anymore. So that kind of became a culture. So we have, like, what I wanted to say is we value this team extremely. It's one of the coolest teams I've ever worked with. And maybe the coolest team I've ever worked with because of that. And nobody.

should, I think, is really afraid here in a, in a sense of, or even like thinking about leaving like on their own in a, in a, in a room or whatever at home and being frustrated because nobody can always talk about it very openly, which is also very different from the corporate setup. That's why it's also good probably to have these two a little bit separated.

Honesty to be able to have those conversations to go look i'm not really contributing anymore i've left jobs like that in the past to the company i go look there's nothing else i can do the company doesn't have a trajectory for me i'm gonna leave and you leave really well when you do that because both parties are happy and you're not hiding you're not hiding in a role and just rotting

And there's there's a couple who, who founded the company Robert and Angelica puts in, in this case, and they, they really were looking for somebody who takes over. What they've built their whole life and bring it, make it something hopefully even better but keep it alive. They didn't have kids to take it over and so on. And So there was, there was one thing.

And of course for us, it was great because we had experienced founders who were doing this kind of, yeah, rather complex and, not easy business with elderly care. I was willing to hand it over to us. And also teach and train our people to, and then, then our skill that came in was actually digitize, make it. Scale it in a certain extent, also bring it then to our customer base. We have 17 million customers with Onika, so connect it. But it's, it looks like a win win.

And today I would actually say it is a win win. In the beginning, in this case, it was really, really hard because there was some kind of fundamental misunderstanding. Yeah. So then the data take totally on my responsibility. Of course, I was like, I came in and said, okay, now the beginning, I thought we acquired 39 percent of this company and said, okay, now we do it. We do this, this, this, and this.

And I want to have these changes and I want to have that reporting and I want to have this connection to Onika. And they looked at me and said, no, we're doing things here since 20, 30 years, the way we do them, and we're not going to change them. Yeah. You were learning from us. Not, it's not me, not us learning from you. And I was under the impression, Hey guys, we bought 39 percent of your shares.

You have an earn out for in the next three to five years and they would run for the earn out and maximize the value. Yeah. And that's exactly the. The experience. And most of us will know that from, from younger startup founders who like serial entrepreneurs, they say, okay, I built something. They also have very purpose driven and but they, they think more rational maybe and think, okay, my earn out is here and there and they optimize my earn out.

And I also want to hand over this company, but they are not so extremely attached to this company and to these teams and to their customers as the other people who are doing this for decades. So actually for Angelika and Robert. Yeah, money was a factor, but it was for sure not the most important thing, right?

For them, it was important that the company and the team and the customers, that they that they safeguard them and that they become something even better, but also like that they, they, they leave something, yeah, which is really has value. It was way more important to them than, than to optimize any kind of burnout. And then I had to learn, yeah, and I did learn another scarf, in the third or fourth board meeting and like our weekly interactions. started to understand.

And we, as you can imagine, we have a completely different mode of working with these two. Then for example, I think you can make this example as well, quite openly. We, we invested last year in telemedic, which is super cool investment on our side. I am super happy that we could make it so that Pavel, the founder is a Polish young entrepreneur, trusted us and let us take over the majority in the shares of the largest telemedicine provider in Eastern Europe. And Pavel is.

Completely different kind of animal. Yeah, he's, he's, One of the smartest guys I know, he's absolute great entrepreneur. He grew a company, highly profitable in double digit million revenues. We've seen I think four or five years, if I'm not mistaken. He has also this earn out and he wants to further optimize as much as possible, like working with him, had a call with him, like learning all the time, every time. Super fast, but completely different setup, as you can imagine.

Like Parvel is, yeah, okay. I have a team, but the most important thing is the company and the growth of the company, he works with his team, like it's more like our culture, best person in every position. It's not the most important thing that I have somebody 20, 30 years with my company, which also has a value. I'm not, it's from our core business, so don't get me wrong. But in his case, it was growth, digital, efficiency.

And let's, let's get this something really, really big, which is, I hope you can hear that completely different. Like also motivation and, and set up as in the first case that I described and now we are working, like we have a portfolio now of what is it? Omo, tele ma, me, well, bio Home, I think I haven't forgotten anyone now. Hopefully six companies with who are all, all of them are somewhere. on this, on this scale. Yeah. And it's different to, to work with them.

It's different to let them work together because we also want to connect this customer journeys and their priorities and their motivations are just different. And that's something I'm a very, as I said in the introduction, I'm coming from the asset management side. I'm a financial person. I'm very organizationally process driven. So I also know hopefully my weak points, so I'm more the rational person. Yeah. So I had a really hard time in the beginning.

to connect to this totally purpose driven, but totally like driven from the legacy, kind of entrepreneurs, which are different kinds of entrepreneurs, but both successful and great entrepreneurs. But to think into this, Kind of relationship was much, much harder for me, for example, so I'm happy that I have my second managing director, Lucas, who covers this other part and like together we, until now, we can manage it quite well. But that was a super important learning.

It was also very exciting to go through this. Not always nice because as you can imagine, there was some very emotional discussions throughout the time as well with the one or the other.

dissonance about, yeah, they're not really the right fit from a personality perspective, but their technology is, and you have to make the decision. So there's, there's so much that goes through your mind in those moments. And again, Erich , is up for anybody reaching out, Erich, that, that might want to discuss these things with you as well. And we'll share where to find you at the end last one for you, which is a quick one.

Maybe a quick one, but a painful one is this whole thing about celebrating failure. And I think fail fast, fail quickly. It's often mistaken that you don't want to fail at all.

What you wanna do is put a little kind of exploratory ideas to see if this feedback quickly so they're cheap and there's not much investment of time energy and finance in that, put the bigger the failure the more painful it is so this is something that you told me as well before we came on air maybe will share this as well as a final message.

And that's what we try to do is to turn it around and let the teams give us at least a recommendation or ideally decide on their own and say, okay, should we further invest or not? Mostly they come back. So they were not good. I know that other, no other companies I'm exchanging with, which are better in this. But most of the teams come back and say we want to continue because we are super excited about our topic here, of course.

And then we have to make the decision , on the team which is really, really hard because it's not clear. And we had twice the case where the teams made the decision, then it's much, much easier because we, okay. As you, you're closest to the topic, then let's move on. When we make the decisions, I think it's also very important to create some kind of, ritual or something around it.

So what we have here at the office, we have a big wall, call it a wall of ideas where we have a lot of light bulbs. It looks like an innovation tool thing, but it really serves the value or like has a value for us. And like every idea that we start in this three month cycle like somebody's writing the name of the idea that we have. Switching on the light and that's okay.

That's what we're currently looking at, but even more important after the three months, if you stop something, the whole thing goes there, we have a beer together and we switch the light off together. And that's this kind of habit. So this ritual, It turned out to help us to close things really we know it's not gone. It's important learnings, and then we really stop thinking about it and working on it.

So that, that's this internal, like this failure topic, how to stop it and really stop it and not invest more and more resources. And the other thing I think I mentioned before is when you go from ideation, incubation into scaling. That's where you just have to realize from a certain amount of investment or revenue that is okay. Now it's about operational excellence. It's not about experimenting anymore. In our case. We mostly do it in a way that we say, okay, ideation incubation happens.

We see in MaviNext, which is this product development company. Everybody in here knows that this is the place to experiment. And then something reaches a certain size and we say, okay, this is actually scalable. The product market fit is proven. Great. Then we spin it out in a separate company.

And one thing with separate companies also that these people who before were product owners and more like these experimental people, either you take new people or sometimes you can keep the people, but they become managing directors and that also gives them a different kind of also responsibility, but also visibility. And then this starts hopefully to also work more in an operational excellence modes and reprocesses project management and so on. That's, that's our kind of tool set, how we do it.

Okay.

. Erich thank you so much for sharing so much knowledge where can people find out you mentioned about people reaching out to discuss ideas with you where's the best place to find you,

startups, universities, and , the unique Wazoku crowd of 700, 000 plus global problem solvers, Wazoku calls this connected collective intelligence, and you can find them at www. wazoku. com. Finally, to our guest, thank you for joining us, Erich Krushitz.