Bobby Herrera: The Gift of Struggle

Every leader has stories about the challenges they faced and the struggles they have overcome. In the moment those situations required strength patience perseverance and courage. With time those struggles provide us lessons for how to be better leaders. Today's guest has learned to see those struggles as gifts.

As a co founder and ceo he never imagined the challenges of building a five hundred million dollar organization that serves tens of thousands of people, throughout his life experience the divergence between the intentional leader he wanted to be, and the less engaged version of him that showed up at the office and home every day. One day at a company meeting he decided to share one of his first struggles as a young adult.

That story a pivotal experience that had transformed his life inspired his employees with radical transparency, humility and the idealism of his dreams for the company. In today's book he shares twelve of those stories from his leadership journey.

Now just to temper you won't have time to cover all twelve, they're beautifully told in an absolutely beautiful book each chapter shares the details of the story, the broader lesson any leader can apply and that word application is really important for how the story later unfolded in his life.

We welcome the author of the gift of struggle life changing lessons about leading bobby herrera welcome to the show Healthy underdog brother. Appreciate you having me. Appreciate the kind of words, beautiful to have a man and we have to share the serendipity of this i've just signed with a new agent in the us gray miller. Scott miller big shout out to you and drew young.

Who work with both bobby and me and when i was telling about the concept of my new book they went does any book resonate that you have there behind you on your library i wasn't on my library it was here that i lean on so what i'm on camera here i lean on a pile of books, i want to get this book and i held it up and they're like what bobby. We work with Bobby i was like talk about serendipity and that we have to say a shout out to those guys man small world, isn't it?

Absolutely man and serendipity is throughout this book as well it's glued together with serendipity but i hope i've raised people's. Curiosity about the book. There's little stories in it that will resonate with you and the first is the bus story.

And i thought it up in a different way here to tell the story because kind words combined with kind gestures can change lives and i found this beautiful quote by mother theresa and she said " kind words can be short and easy to speak, put their echoes are truly endless." And that was the case for you bobby let's turn it over to you to tell the story

. I'm often asked about the bus story. It's my marker story at the essence of it. I just profoundly believe that kindness in the shadows creates heroes in the daylight. And that's what happened for me. When I was 17, my brother and I, we were on a return trip home from a basketball game. And I remember the energy on the bus. We were excited. We had just experienced a big win.

And on the way home, we stopped for dinner and everybody unloaded off the bus, except for my brother, Ed and I, at that point in my family's story, we didn't have the means to play sports and afford dinner. It was something he and I were very accustomed to, staying back on that bus, my mom would prepare her legendary burritos, which I would kill for right now, by the way, and we stayed back on the bus while everybody else unloaded.

We were about to get started and having our dinner when this gentleman steps on board the bus. And I, as he's walking towards the back, he says, he teased me a little bit cause my brother had outscored me that night. And then he said something to me that I'll never forget. And he says, Bobby, it would make me very happy. If you would allow me to buy you boys dinner so you can join the rest of the team, nobody else has to know.

All you have to do to thank me is do the same thing for another great kid in the future, just like you. And it's still hard for me to explain the gratitude that I felt at that moment. I felt this, I had this feeling inside of me. That's still hard for me to describe. And I remember stepping off the bus that evening and. I'm 17. I can't see three feet in front of my face. All I knew is that a year from then, I wanted to raise my hand and join the military, which I did.

But outside of that, I had no idea. But after that moment on the bus, even though I had no idea what I was going to do, I knew why. That moment inspired me to figure out how to pay forward that kind act to other kids like me, who were born on the wrong side of the opportunity divide. It gave me something to believe in. It gave me hope and it came at a time when I needed it more than I imagined. At that point in my life, I had more reverse role models than I care to admit.

And. I remember at that moment feeling something that I think every single one of us desperately want. I felt at that moment that someday I could do what I call, check the ultimate box. Will my story matter? And I felt that if I paid forward that kind act like he had called me to action tonight, that night, I would get the opportunity to check that box. And it changed everything for me.

Aidan and not only change everything for you in the moment, What actually it change everything for you when you told the story which i found really interesting before we come to that because the book is very much a story of becoming a better leader, it's a story of empathy as well i felt a lot of the i'm not saying things through the lens and you saw things through your lens and you were born in thirteen kids in the family, yeah, number 11. sorry thirteen kids though you say in the book right.

Yeah. The number 11 of 13. Number eleven thirteen right and your dad's migrant worker came in during the shortage population after the war.

Worked really hard you grew up that was your paradigm so so i'm saying this for a reason that that's the way you saw the world so when you're sitting on the back of the bus it didn't appear to me that you felt poor me you didn't have any of that you were just like this is my world and the reason i say that was i thought about say the kids that take it for granted that going into after the game go into the restaurant and many of us now our children live in.

Pretty much luxury in privilege is certainly in privilege and it made me think of previous shows that we've had previous episodes of the innovation show one of those was with a lady a black lady called terry givens, and she wrote a book called radical empathy and i wanted to share this story with you so we're talking away like this right and the sharing like a moment of vulnerability. She, she goes Oh, I had to have that conversation with my kids. And I have two boys as well.

And I was like, Oh yeah, it must've been the birds and the bees conversation. Right. And I was like, like cocksure myself. Yeah. Yeah. That, that conversation. Yeah. And she goes, I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. She goes, the conversation, every black mother has to have with her black children, which is don't be playing with toy guns in the front garden. Cause you're going to get killed. And I was like.

Don't find it and i share that as an extreme story of thinking you're knowing what's going on with the other person and having a story in your head from your paradigm and been totally wrong cuz this is one of the things your book does is open up that possibility to go, What you intend is not the impact that you're having and it can be based on just a different paradigm that you live in that's a powerful experience and you're right, at that point in my

family story, like struggle had been the only consistent theme. So it was a way of life and a big question that I asked myself often was, will my future be any different? Well, that moment gave me something to believe in. It gave me purpose. It gave me this, it became the invisible force that drove me from that day forward. And it did take me some time, from that moment I stepped off the bus to the moment that I developed the courage to tell it, it took me 15 years.

It was raging like an inferno inside of me. But one of the interesting backstories about that moment was the gentleman that stepped on board the bus. He was a very successful businessman in the community. And the narrative that I told was that people like him, they don't see poor struggling Brown kids like me. And with one kind act, not only did he teach me that I was wrong. But he taught me that one of the single most important parts of leadership is seeing and encouraging potential.

That was the very first time in my life that I felt seen and that was a transformative part of that story is I felt truly seen and he did it in a way that just I feel is one of the most the best examples of wisdom and humility. He showed me in that moment that he wanted more for me. than from me. And that is at the heart of leadership. When you make someone feel seen and you make someone feel like you want more for them than from them.

beautiful and that is in the book as well as being a leader in your company and we'll come back to that but that moment that word in your ear i've heard that from people. That made me believe in myself over the years in from a sports perspective and i hope that i'm doing the right thing by my kids spotting those moments where you can put in a wise word in fact.

My kids can i get bit sick of me sometimes bobby about you but my wife my wife recently said oh my god Aidan living with you is like living in a real life ted talk sometimes and i was like okay i gotta maybe dial it down a bit. But sometimes i'd be in the car you know doing soccer soccer pop bringing them here and there and everywhere Right. i'd hear maybe their friend. negatively about themselves going, Oh, I'm terrible at that. And I, and I'll, I'll step in for, for that exact reason.

I go, don't say that about yourself. Be proud of yourself. Did you do your best then do, then, then that's okay. As long as you learn from it, so I'll say that and they're probably doing the same thing, going, Oh, I hate getting a lift with Mr. McCullough, but, but, There's no it can make a difference. That's the point. Oh, 15 years from now, they'll repeat it to someone else. Yeah. It'll stick.

yeah i'm not know the origin which is beautiful as well but let's close that story because you did go back to that man and tell him i'm actually i did something similar but it was the best thing i ever did when i, i think we write a book you realize these moments of people who helped you along the way and i made this deal with myself that i, bring them all for breakfast and just thank them all separately and so many of them are like did i actually wow i

didn't know i made any impact but this man was so touched by your message to him. Yeah, that was that's part of the beauty of of that moment is he had no idea of the impact it made on me. And, 15 years after that moment, I finally developed the courage to tell the story to, my company. And I often say that the moment I shared that story was the beginning. Of the transformation of my company becoming a community.

And there's a world of difference in the two, not only in how you lead, but in how the culture comes to life be between the two, and it was about, I would say about six years after I told that story to my community that one summer afternoon, I picked up the phone. I got his number from his son who I'd played sports with and I told his son the story. His son had no idea. I called his dad. His name's Harry. And I told him the story. I told him the impact it had on me.

I told him how blessed I had been to respond to the call. called action from that evening and some of the fortunate things I'd been able to do to pay it forward. And I could sense in that conversation, he was deeply touched. And a few days later I received a note from him. And in that note, it read, Bobby, thank you for calling me and telling me the bus story. I don't mind sharing the many tears that I shed during and after that call. You made me feel like my life had mattered.

Isn't that something? Here, this man gives me purpose, gives me something to believe in. And he's telling me that I made him feel like his life had mattered. That was a real special moment for me in the way that, life gives you fulfillment full circle when you respond to what I believe we're called for. One of the drivers of my work is to bring stories like yours.

Really inspire people to go don't hold back like if you wanna ask that girl or guy to dance do it if you wanna if you wanna thank somebody do it that i could don't regret not doing it because you don't know. Something that you think is small can be huge for the other person. And this, this is one of the things that I saw throughout the book is that thread. And it even came as you say with you. So during the last days of your dad's life may rest in peace, Mm. Mm hmm.

you tell, tell us that he became the day he became a Brachero and I'll let you explain what that was, was the day he said he won the lottery and you thought that perhaps he Bitterness about the struggles that he had had in his life, but it was the total opposite. And this is this idea of. Thinking that, the story and then hearing it from other persons. know, we often form a narrative and it's reality. Welcome to humanity is what I often say.

It's often not a real positive narrative, but the same was true with my dad, in the final days of his life I knew a lot of his story stories cause my dad was a magnificent storyteller. I called him the Mexican John Wayne around the the Western old Western actor in the U S but he just. He had this way of telling stories and I always had to listen to him. And so I inherited that gift from him. In his final days in the hospital, when he had the energy, I would ask him to tell me one of his stories.

And this one particular day, he told me the story about the day that he was selected to become a Bracero. And in Mexico, the Bracero program was an agreement between the U. S. and Mexico where Mexican men would come to the U. S. to offset the labor shortage during the Great Depression era is when it started. And it happened, it continued throughout like the mid 60s. Well, my dad did that for 10 years and I knew a lot of the stories about the journey.

and the hardships and some of the things that he experienced. But the story he told me that day was the day that he had beat, become an actual Bracero that he had that he was selected. So every year that men were selected, there was only a limited amount. of Bracero, like cards that were handed out. In 1954, my dad was selected. There were 300, 000 men amongst millions that stood in line across Mexico that were selected.

But what he told me that day was that, that year that he was selected was the ninth year that he had stood in line. So for eight years, he had stood in these lines amongst millions of other men in Mexico only to face rejection. And to make that even more significant. He was standing in these lines so that he could try to create a better story for his family. They were living amidst poverty that I can't even imagine. And he came back every year to try to become a Bracero. And I didn't know that.

And so, At that moment, it completely shifted the narrative that I had in my mind because he told me in Spanish that the day that I was selected was the day that I won La Loteria, the lottery. And the narrative that I told was that, he's got to have some bitterness, some anger, some resentment, because I was keenly aware of a lot of the hardships that he experienced. But that moment just changed everything for me because I realized at that moment that I am the descendant. Of a resilient pioneer.

This man never, ever gave up. And I am here because of the hardships and the sacrifice that he endured for so many years. And that moment just changed how I felt about. Always being the stream, right? The stream always wins. That's where my, my saying of, be this, always be the stream. The stream always wins. My dad was a stream and he kept flowing. He kept going. And because of that, I was able to have the story that I have today. Like you, you were saying about bringing the kids hiking.

, during the pandemic, I used to bring my kids, I probably shouldn't say this, so I used to bring them to their, their, where they used to go to Cub Scouts, but it was closed and we used to stay. We used to find our way in, let's say, put it that way. . You're being creative, Yeah. And one day I brought them up there and they, this is when they were younger and I'd make them hot chocolate and we'd sit up there and we'd have a picnic with the hot chocolate and sit on a rock.

And there was a little stream, a tiny little stream. And I used to tell them about the stream. This is where, I probably get annoying sometimes with them, but they were young enough to have to listen to me back then now they have headphones and stuff like that, but I was telling them about.

The stream as i look at the stream the stream doesn't it's not a straight line it will hit a rock and it will find a way around it will create its own path but it keeps finding a way to use it as this story of the rocks as well the whole time i'm planting that seed now because, i'm gonna come back to this idea of the children later on cuz there's a story in that you tell us about your son that is really important as well but let's take on the story of story

because in the book you emphasize the importance of story and how it helps. The people at your company understand the Populus group how they understood your intense passion only through you telling that story so your story the story and telling it not only to them but then to other executives was a huge breakthrough in so many ways in your business life. Well, the magic story can't be denied. I, I believe that.

A good story should give the listener something that they can take to make their story better. And I believe that stems from the fact that we share three basic desires, right? We want to stand out, we want to fit in, and we want to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. Well, that story that I had, my marker moment, the bus story, I kept it locked in a vault deep in my heart. And absent of me sharing that story. They did the same thing all of us do, they made up their own, right?

So in their mind, I was just this intense, passionate entrepreneur. I believe they felt I wanted to create something special, but because I wasn't filling in the blank for them, they were making up their own narrative. So when I finally developed what I believe is a core competency of leadership, vulnerability, and told that story, I filled in that blank form. And at that moment, they knew. what type of community I wanted to build, and more importantly, why.

And, you and I both know that what you do is important, but it pales in comparison to why. And since. I hadn't told them that story. That part was missing. And when I completed that sentence or that thought for them, they were then able to make what I believe is a very important choice for anyone that's on the journey with us. I then, in a sense, gave them the pen. And extended trust for them to help me narrate the story.

Up to that point, we were narrating different stories and, in leadership and entrepreneurship, people always talk about, what's your strategy or whatever, like, you know what, I don't make it that complicated. That's sexy. I always go back and I'm like, Hey, tell me the story you're narrating and why. And I was able to do that for my community after I told that story. And we've been building on the magic ever since.

And the more that I tell it, the more that I share it, the more clarity it creates, and the more consistency we create, the more character we create. And those are all trust building pillars of any community that you're, you're trying to, trying to build as a leader.

That's idea of handing them the pen and getting them to co create the story or co create the strategy is really important thing that you talk about so you talk about building your company the populous group and how in the early days you were trying to do it all yourself. And it was only through in sport, , we talk about player led teams.

So the T the players know what to do in the situations on the pitch, because it's, I always talk about NFL in American football, the coach is very close to the pitch and very close to call because there's so many breaks in play, but in , so many other sports, soccer and football and rugby, that you don't get those opportunities to just get the messages on. So the players need to know what to do in the moment.

You talk about this from a leadership perspective and it was a difficult thing for you to do and it wasn't out of trying to micromanage it was actually more. Intention vs impact in the gap between them I wanted to. I desperately wanted to, I just didn't know how, and I'm just grateful that that moment occurred and I was able to fill in the blank for them. And, I S it started opening my eyes.

In a way that and I got developed clarity in a way that I didn't have before as to the importance of making sure that I share my purpose, making sure that they knew how it gives me meaning and really helping them. decide whether or not they wanted to help me, right? Because they have a choice. They can either choose to narrate the story or they can take their talent somewhere else. And I wasn't doing that for them. Prior to that, there was a gap.

I think they could genuinely feel that I wanted to, but I just didn't know how. And, I would think back about that moment. And I'm just so grateful that I finally listened to my intuition and stopped listening to that narrative that I had in my mind, the narrative that I told is like, Oh, it's not going to make a difference. It's not going to matter. They're not going to, care. And I just played that over and over and over.

And, often when I'll tell that story to an audience or whatever at that point in time, when I, when I told the story, we had had some. pretty fortunate return on luck as a, as a company, it was about 10, 11 years in, we had just surpassed the a hundred million in revenue mark. So I, still very blessed. We were still doing some good things, but there was something missing, something missing for me from a fulfillment perspective.

Well, I tell that story and we just turned 20, And from the time that I told that story to now, which has been a little over 10 years, we've grown an additional 500 million, right? So 100 million pre story, 500 million post story. So I'll often share that example with leaders. And I'll be like, you tell me. Does story matter? so let's link it so congrats on your twenty third birthday for populous group. Thank you.

Let's go back to when you were eleven and the eleven year and you talk about choosing the hardest right and this is linked back to her again your dad.

And his direction in you or his his influence in you about importance of keeping your word and this this is a huge dilemma so this is your dad on what was his death bed and your promise to a friend to go to his wedding and what unfolded. Yeah, my dad, for most of his life, like he never made more than 150 a week, and so, most of his life, his word was the only thing of value and, it was the most valuable thing that he owned. And he reminded us of that often.

Well, when he was on his deathbed it was around the time I was going to go visit, I was going to go visit him anyway, because I knew that, maybe my final opportunity will happen to coincide with also a a wedding of a friend that I was going to attend. And, when I got the call that my dad, had been taken to the hospital. I was going to change all my plans and re divert everything.

Well, I called my dad before I did that and I decided to tell him like, Hey dad I'll, I'll be, I'm going to be home sooner than I thought.

I got the call on a Wednesday. I was going to see him that Sunday. I said, I'll be home tomorrow. Hang on. And, I, I, he, he was my hero. I just wanted to make sure that I saw him. And I remember when I told him that I heard, I felt this pregnant pause and I knew what that pregnant pause meant. He had this very distinguished pregnant pause that signaled to me, you're about to do something I don't agree with, son. And I'm sitting there pleading, telling him, that, Hey, I'm going to go home.

And he's like, Hey son, don't you have a wedding to go to? And I was like, yes, I do. And he said, well, I'll be okay. Come see me after the wedding. And then, so I start pleading again and he's like, son, did you give him your word? I said, I did. He goes, okay. He said, well, then you have to go. He said you're welcome to try and come down here, but if you choose to come see me, I'm not going to let you in the hospital room. And he was stubborn enough that I know he wouldn't have done it.

Right. So I kept my, kept my word, went and fortunately he was still okay when I got there on Sunday, but my dad was the kind of, Man, that unregardless of the circumstance, regardless of what was at risk, you, you always choose the hardest right over the easiest wrong.

And to me, the carry forward lesson from that was just the importance of, trust building signals and everything that you do, like we, we agreed to start this call today 1, because I've done that ever since. I was beginning days of my company, I start calls at off time so that when I get there on time, it exactly when I say I'm going to be there, it sends a signal of trust. And my dad was just very intuitive about doing things like that. Aidan.

not only did your dad give the advice, but you actioned it. This is such an important thing that i wanted to touch on.

When you had feedback throughout your career so pre populous group, working in a company got some feedback where you thought you were ideal for promotion you were passed over you seek out a mentor. And what i'm pretty sure many people would miss in that story was it wasn't just that you saw that the mentor but you say and it's a throwaway comment i did what she told me to do and.

Yeah, as a coach so i. Coach as a consultant i often give advice to people and there's a term called don't cast pearls before swine it's a biblical term, i know what it literally means is don't waste good pearls of wisdom with swine because they'll just disregard them and unfortunately you see that with a lot of people where you know and the less colorful term. That I refer to those people as, as ask holes and an ask hole is somebody who asks for advice and then doesn't do anything.

And these people, everybody has them in their life somewhere. They're always moaning, always given out, have the opportunities, have the map of how to get out of the situation, but won't do anything about it. Right. So each to their own I'm not being judgmental there. But the successful ones are the people who take action, who apply the information. So I'm going to link together two concepts here.

One is the mentor and the actions you took, and then there's Dr. Joe and the work you did with Dr. Joe, this was the coach that you engaged, but the application of the learnings that you had with Dr. Joe, this application word is so important. no doubt. Dr. Joe I'm so grateful that he came into my life. He's my Sicilian father. Yeah. He when I first met him, I was full of piss and vinegar in the beginning stages of my professional career.

I was the kind of young professional that would go to the bookstore, buy three or four or five books. Start one, quit a few chapters in, start another one, maybe finish one chapter and the rest of them became expensive coasters. You used them to rest your elbows on. Mine were, I was sitting, I was sitting drinks on mine. Like they were that worthless for me.

And when I met Dr. Joe, He assigned a book to me to read, and in the follow ups, it became pretty evident that I was saying all the right things to him and not doing all the right things, and he asked me a cage rattling question. He asked me, Bobby, give me examples from the book. Where you've specifically changed your behavior. All he heard was silence.

I had nothing for him, but that moment just stood out and called me to action, and really helped me understand what I call the difference between the 99% and the 1%. Anything you read, any advice that you, take from someone that's the 1%, but the application. That's where the magic happens. That's 99%. And unfortunately, I believe, our collective observation is there's too much of a premium placed on that 1%. Like, what are you reading? What are, people will ask for advice.

We need to put the premium on the behavioral change. And so from that day forward, Imperfectly, but consistently, I started putting a premium on that 99%. And it came to life really prominently for me when you mentioned getting passed over. It actually, unfortunately it was worse than that. I got demoted and I had to go back and eat my own dog food.

And I sought out a mentor because I'd been told I wasn't a very good business person. And I was looking for ways to blame the person that demoted me. But when I finally got over my anger, I sought out a mentor who I felt could teach me the things that I needed to learn. And when I, as I, as she started giving me assignments, I focused diligently on applying everything she told me. And what I found interesting was the more that I applied what she told me, the more willing she was to teach me.

And I think that's where the beauty of coachability comes in. The more I did what she asked me to do, the more she wanted to help me. And. That actually was a real humbling exercise for me because it really came to life for me that it's like, well, maybe I'm not as good of a business person as I thought I was, but then I started changing my behavior through this course about applying everything that she told me. And, connecting those two experiences for me was transformative.

And it helped me change some things going forward. Like any book that I buy or that I read in, I'll read it twice. I'll go through the first time front to back, and then I'll go through the second time and I'll read it again and I'll highlight things that resonate and I'll write a note specifically next to it on exactly how I'm going to apply something to enhance my behavior, change my behavior or whatever. So it's a journey, And man, it's, it's why with the show.

That's one of the biggest pieces of feedback I received from the audiences to make the show shorter, but you can't like, you can't do justice to these books in a shorter show. Sometimes books, like for example, I'm just finished a series with. This guy, Peter Campo, the emergent approach to strategy, very dense, loads of examples, some books need a different approach and to actually apply them, but it's why I write an article.

In line with each episode, because for me, that's an application of what I've learned and it sticks. Then it sticks for a long time.

Cause it's really the learning of it, but you reminded me of a story that I haven't shared before. And this is what your book does. It makes you reflect on moments that, that were really changed moments in your life. So when I retired from rugby, I got a job as an, I was an unpaid intern and I bought, I bought this suit.

I went to the job cuz when i was retiring was preparing for the new world and i bought really nice suits, i was the whole thing dress for the job you want not just job right so first thing that happens is it go to this building it was a big media company go to the building, i had a nice car i pulled up at the car park when to drive into the car park and the guy goes have you got a pass and i said no but i work for this company and he goes, you look me up and down and he goes alright go

ahead right so i went to him then learned his name said hello to him went over to an awesome for a pass, i need to look at me real suspiciously but he gave me one. I went on every day parked in that car park went about my business about three months later the CEO goes hey i saw you parking in the car park.

You know this limited spaces in there and i was like i knew and i was like no no i didn't know that because i have people working in this but this company twenty years looking for a car place how the heck did you get one right so that was that was application of knowledge that got me there but i wanted to say this thing which was.

The knowledge was everyday for an entire year man i listen to the book seven habits of highly effective people steven covey book everyday everyday over and over and over and the application of that, was really awkward and i want to share this cuz it's not easy to apply it cuz it feels weird it's like as you say in the book. teeth with the opposite hand Right.

it's there's an awkwardness at the start and stuff like, even coming to a meeting with an agenda and handing out copies of an agenda or sending it to people in advance, those people can i look at you going who is this guy and because they just weren't used to that are starting a meeting at sixteen oh three to send a signal.

But it's a signal that you're different and you're gonna do things different now when you own that it actually sends you in a totally different direction and i just wanted to share because this idea of ownership of that difference is life changing. It's, it's transformative. And you're, you're right. I think the most, the beautiful, most beautiful part about it is, is, are the trust building signals that it sends to others.

And you actually create a sense of safety for them to do the same, like just sitting in that awkwardness. And like we're talking about our kids a lot. Like for me, I love letting them sit in that mess they make. or in that struggle because it teaches them how to get out of it and you know I'll often tell my oldest boy, son you can't talk your way about out of something that you behave your way into. So how are you going to behave your way out of this?

You can tell me all the right things, but how are you going to behave your way out of this? Because I want him to understand the 99%. It's synonymous with behavior and that's awkward. It's counterintuitive. That's where, it's interconnected to choosing the hardest right over the easiest wrong. The easiest wrong is, all right, let me just go over here where it's. It's safe or, it's, it's comfortable for me, right?

I don't have to go through that process of learning something new, of getting through the mess that I made, sending someone that signal, I think is, is powerful for both of you.

I'm talking to signals one of the stories i had to share and it made me self reflect again was the tea the tea chart so this is what your son santiago that you noticed, his behavior changed this bright energetic kids started to go inside himself, you were like what's going on here and you realized actually it was again, Intention impact gap and it was having a major major impact on him Yeah, my dad had a saying when I was young, I was a very mischievous kid.

I was number 11 and I thought my sole mission in life was to try to figure out some form of mischief that my parents hadn't seen before. You know how hard that is to do as child number 11, right? man innovation. No doubt. No doubt. Well, my son, Santino, my dad used to, he always used to tell me in Spanish, hijo which means a son you are, a dad you'll be, you'll get yours. Right. Well, Centino is my payback. And, when he was young, this mini version of me was, he's a very impulsive kid.

He was, he was the type of kid that heard no a lot. Right. And so the essence of the T chart, which was by far the hardest chapter for me to write, because it exposed a a part of my leadership as his father that had what I felt was a major gap.

Most of the time, as I was guiding him, as I was directing him through the course of guidance from, a counselor that we had him see because of some learning challenges that he had, I learned through a simple exercise of the T chart, this counselor had us track how often in our commands We gave him guidance on what he could do versus what he couldn't do. So in other words, how often does he hear no? And it's, it's, I think it's counterintuitive, right?

As a parent, you're like, okay, don't do this. Don't run, right? So an example is instead of telling them don't run, shift in that to say, hey son, you need to walk through the hall. So I started tracking these go and stop commands.

And it was a real heartbreaking exercise for me because they were all disproportionately stop commands and shifting that over Helped transform the way I lead people I shifted that behavior over into my business into the community that I was building and it helped me understand Just how encouraging I was being to my people how at that point time I was I didn't I thought I was being encouraging but I wasn't being as encouraging as I thought You

And that's a sense of building someone's confidence, building someone's esteem. I learned that through the journey of my son. And to this day, it's still the hardest thing that I do as a father. It is deeply hardwired in us to say no. It is deeply hardwired in us to tell someone how not to do something and shift in that narrative to this day is something that I have to work on every day.

I've been consistent, but imperfect, and my kids will be the first ones to tell you just how imperfect and consistent I've been. kids are great the families are great testbed to try out your leadership and if they know. What you're trying to instill they have no problem holding the mirror up to give you feedback unvarnished 360 Yeah, it? Most feedback for me, comes from my wife. No varnish there at all. It's just straight, straight out with it. No problem.

And it's great to have that mirror that honest feedback, which is something that you talk about the fact that it's hardwired in us also to be defensive about feedback because we want to protect Our sense of ourselves, our ego, the narrative we have of ourselves as well. So you shared this story that came from your team.

Yeah, that transition over into the community that I was building, it really helped me understand just how I could do a much better job of preparing my leaders in terms of not just what great look like, but catching them doing things right along the way. And it exposed to me. Just how underprepared I was putting these leaders that I was expecting to do good work for me just out into I was just throwing them out into the fray. And I was actually compromising something.

I said to myself, I would never do again when I got demoted, when I got demoted, and we talked about that example a short bit ago, I felt that I'd been put out the fray for a year. And, during that year that I got demoted, I talked to the the gentleman that I was reporting to twice. And I swore to myself, I'll never do that to my leaders.

Well, you fast forward, 10 plus years later or whatever, yeah, just like, like parenting, you, you realize, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm living out this behavior that I saw modeled somewhere else, no, everyone's doing their best, but we're, we're living out behavior that we've seen modeled. And I knew that at that point in time, I needed to start modeling different behavior. If I was going to transform the leadership maturity of my organization for, for years to come.

So all those moments came together, experiencing that go and stop command exercise with my son. It just exposed so many things that I felt I needed more growth in as, as a leader myself.

I don't know if you've watched the show, the boys, have you heard about the boys on Amazon prime yet? No, so right. Don't, don't let your kids see it. It's graded eighteens for a reason. It's probably the most violent and sexual show I've ever seen.

But it's a brilliant black mirror of society right and it's a bad actually superheroes who are worshipped like gods and, the power goes to the head so they don't obey the rules anymore and it's essentially a black mirror of american politics and society in america but there's a scene right so that there's a main kind of hero almost like a captain america, And his name is Homelander and, In an episode i saw recently he is assembling what's left of his group his

team that used to be known as the seven he's either fired or killed, most of them and there's only a few left and he's really frustrated because he says i'm dealing with a bunch of sycophants here right so these people are yes men yes women, and they are that way because he kills everyone who challenges him. Yes. He says this in the moment, and that scene came to mind. Not saying that you're like , a mass murderer a superhero don't think so.

But that story came to mind when you said beautifully said, "I've been muzzling the team I most trust." I thought that was huge moment of transparency, but so much wisdom You're talking about , that experience I had in the conference room, I was with my executive team and, I'd always told them like you're on the payroll to tell me when I'm wrong, you're on the payroll to tell me no. And, I believe they would tell you that they knew my intentions were good around that. However, I was.

Muzzling them because when I would, when they would take me up on that invitation to tell me no, or to tell me I'm wrong, I had this, my, my, my Latino Mexican John Wayne temper that I inherited would, would show by way of this vein that would protrude on my forehead and no doubt probably followed by some colorful language. I would express exactly how I felt about what they were saying.

Well, of course they weren't going to say anything, so having to change that over the course of many years has been a transformative experience because it's created a safety for them to actually do that. But up to that point, I actually, I thought I was doing a pretty decent job. I, I, I needed when that, when that specifically, when that example, when that experience happened in the conference room, we were having a healthy conflict conversation.

And one of the executives that I felt would be the most honest with me was muzzled. And the CFO spoke up and said, Hey, look, why don't you tell him he's wrong? Like, tell him what exactly how you feel, he's open to feedback, just tell him exactly how you feel. And I looked over at him, and I could just tell by the look on his face, I was like, you're, you're, you're afraid to tell me, aren't you? And he said, no, all I heard was, yes, I knew his face said it all to me.

And at that moment I realized, yeah, it was, it was one of those reflective moments, black mirror reflective moments for me because I had been demonstrating through my behavior a different form of modeling than my words were inviting them to, to do. That's man. You know when, when I was reading about that.

I was thinking that no matter how well you're doing, you get knocked off the horse all the time and you just get back up, you realize that, one of the things I do, I haven't been as good as doing it recently again, fall off, fall off the horse, was your intentions for your day and then, How did you do a scorecard at the end of the day? How did I do against that? Where did I fall from the horse and where could I have done better, et cetera.

And it's, it's a great way, like you were saying about actually applying all the knowledge to yourself and going, where can I do better today? I have one last one for you. One last story to bring it full circle to innovation. And it was so serendipitous. Again, I was writing, I, I, as I tell you, I write a weekly article from, for the newsletter that Thursday thought, and I was writing this morning.

I was writing about this concept roughly like rogue rogue decisions and positive deviance i haven't come up with a title yet for it but it was essentially about the term deviant and when you heard the term deviant people would think it's negative but actually deviant.

A deviant is somebody who deviates from the path and all discovery comes from deviation from the path from the normal way of doing things and again, this is something that you talk about both that you try to bring to your children but also to the organization that you try to instill this idea of go off the beaten path.

Well, first, before I respond to that, one of my favorite articles that you wrote is about how it's about casting it's around the Greek proverb, casting shadows that we may never sit in. Oh yeah doing things in a way that to me, I thought that was beautifully written about, legacy and paying forward our wisdom. Right. So, I love that article you wrote, thanks man thank you. You're speaking my love language. That's one of them going off, going off the beaten path.

Right. So, I believe that it's important to be a good follower. Yet when it comes to innovation, when it comes to, discovering something, if you don't go off the trail, it's not going to happen. And so the, the origin of that, it started with, the mountains are like my second chapel.

I told you at the beginning, before we got on the show, I just came off my favorite mountain, Mount Rainier and, any opportunity I get, I. When my kids were young and to this day, I'll get them out on trails and a ceremony that we had on our hikes is at a certain point I would stop and I'd say to my kids, Hey, where do Herrera's go? And they in unison would yell, we go off the beaten path.

And so we would go off the trail and go explore while also being respectful to nature and whatever path that we were on, but we would go off the path to explore. And I would encourage them to look for things that they wouldn't see had they stayed on the trail. And then I'd take it a step further. I'd have us lay down somewhere and look at the view from just a different from a different perspective.

And then we'd start pointing out different things that they would have never seen had we not laid down in the dirt to see the different view from the ground. And I just did that all the time. And so I carried that principle over into my community. I'm always encouraging people to, Hey, go off the beaten path. That's a core pillar of our culture code. And it stems from the lesson that I wanted to teach my kids on, Hey, be respectful. And that's where that deviance comes in.

And I couldn't agree more. It's like, Hey, don't break the law, but don't be afraid to bend the rules as far as you can. And so that's where my mischief as child number 11 paid off, but I'm trying to treat, teach them a more constructive way of doing it. it's a brilliant brilliant story and brilliant way of getting the lesson across man action again not just telling them but actually showing them and without , you're creating a pathway, a neural pathway I often tell them too.

It's like, Hey, my job is to prepare you for the path, not to prepare the path for you. So when, my dad used to tell me when I was young, he said, Hey son, when you're 18, I'm going to break your plate and burn your bed. Right. I knew he meant it. I'm telling that to them too. If you were, if you ever meet him, you ask him, Hey, what's your dad going to do when you turn 18? They're going to say, he's going to break my plate and he's going to burn my bed. Right.

I want them to go out on the path, right? They'll probably want to get so far away from me. Get away from the Mexican Ted talk per se. Well, I'm very active brilliant. Brilliant.

Well, man, it's been an absolute pleasure. And last question for you is where can people find out more about the book, about you, about Populus group? LinkedIn. So I can be easily found there.

I'm Active, very active on the speaking circuit, Gray Miller who we talked about earlier represent me there, I'd recommend reaching out to them for speaking, for storytelling and Populus group community I've been blessed to build where we're living out our core belief that everyone deserves an opportunity to succeed stemming from the bus story in that moment. And that's it, Populusgroup. com. Brilliant. And if you're interested, I'm also with Gray Miller.

So you can get a double team of me and Bobby. you go. There you go. Brilliant, That would be, that would be a fun event. That would be a lot of I'm up for it but i'm totally up for it it's been a pleasure i'm a huge believer in the gift of struggle, struggle is where you build muscle .Struggle is where you build strength and it's a pleasure to have had you on the show author of the gift of struggle life changing lessons about leading bobby herrera for joining us All hail the underdogs, Aidan.

I admire your work. Thank beautiful beautiful man