¶ Intro / Opening
I remember my farewell email from Google on my last day . I wrote joining Google make me strong , leaving Google make me stronger . I know it's kind of naive when you were young you
¶ Journey From Google to New Horizons
write that way , but still I feel like that's true . Every different experience taught me different things , every different type of work . I learned it in a hard way . As you mentioned , I used to be a software engineer and then I was leading the global public policy for TikTok . I never even learned about it and I learned it at the job .
I learned it from the people who believe and trust me and even followed me changing from one team to another , just because they feel like they've been seen in the team and seen their potential . And they feel like they have been seen in the team and seen their potential and they feel like they have career progression .
If they in my team and that's all inspired me and feel like , oh , maybe I'm a little bit , I'm good at leadership in a different way , even though I'm not the strongest leader in the room , but I'm probably most supportive , caring and be able to support them , navigate some of the hardship , be able to endure when things not doing well instead of just all the
glorious things and we celebrate often . We have a really strong team culture because of that and we made lifelong friends .
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change , the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management , leadership and transformation . I am your host , ali Juma . In today's episode , I am thrilled to be joined by Susan Zhang , a creative technologist , author and a global thought leader .
From her beginnings in China to her journey as an international student here in Australia , susan has embraced the discomfort of change to unlock personal and professional growth . We dive deep into topics like the power of stepping outside your comfort zone , the role of ambition in driving change and how embracing failure can lead to unexpected growth .
Susan shares her unique perspective on leadership , drawing from her experiences at Google and her bold decisions to pivot in her career . If you are navigating a time of uncertainty or change , this conversation offers powerful insights on how to move forward with confidence , embracing new opportunities and transform challenges into growth .
I am grateful to have Susan chatting with me today . Well , susan , thank you so much for your time today and thank you for joining me in the inner game of change podcast . Thank you for your time today and thank you for joining me in the Inner Game of Change podcast .
Thank you for having me .
How large your heart is , how large the stage will be . That is the Chinese proverb . Talk to me about that , yeah it is .
Yeah , that's what my parents taught me when I was young . In Chinese it's saying 你的心有多大舞台就有多大。 so my parents are all working in performing arts . My dad is a performer for Peking Opera . My mom is a professional violinist . They're always on the stage , but you know , for one minute on the stage you have to prepare for 10 years .
So they told me from the small stage they played in their province . They go to city , they go to state , they go to national . So I followed their journey and that motto followed me in my heart and planned to see it as well .
Talk to me about the sense of stage . Has that changed over time ?
I think so . You know , from a small town in China , I never see an ocean before I turned 18 . And then all of a sudden I board a flight . I fly to Australia to study as an international student .
I not only just step outside the province the stage of my comfort zone and then the stage of my comfort zone and then cross the ocean , cross thousands of miles to a place where not many people speak Mandarin and you have to speak English , so it's a total stage change . That is crazy , but it's also fun and very thrill when looking back .
Let's touch on that concept of comfort zone . What does it mean to you ? I mean um , what does even comfort mean ?
comfort . I feel like this is probably a little bit extreme . Um , comfort feels like a slow dying , like you probably sit somewhere , um comfortable in the warm water . It's like the frog in the pan , right when the , when the temperature going up , you don't really feel it until it's 90 degree , 100 . And then you're dead . So that's how I feel , like comfort .
You don't feel the threat , you don't feel you're afraid , you don't see what's coming . You kind of lost the vision . You kind of lost your what do you call it competitive edge . You don't know what's straight out there , but it could be dangerous . So that's comfort to me . And what appeals to you in the discomfort zone .
This comfort zone is when I'm in someone else's comfort zone . For example , when I speak to you , you are the mastermind of change management For me . I probably , you know , know , not study this area or , um , not so experienced as I'm in your comfort zone , in your strength area .
So when , when I'm in my weakness area in someone's strength , that's when I feel like I'm outside the comfort zone . But it's also the place where you can learn the most from the people who are the expert of their comfort zone .
So that is fun and there's a lot of learning in this comfort zone . Obviously , you learn about something , but you also learn about yourself . I'm really keen about that notion of before we start recording . I was just sharing my story with you and I always think that we do a lot of internal processing so we can get the learning from the outside world .
I mean , talk to me about that .
Yeah , I feel like I can smell the change . It's like someone can smell the good food is coming . I think the first thing come to mind is always very natural you will ask am I ready ? So right ? Um , it doesn't matter , you're a superman or you are everyday people . You will ask yourself am I ready ? What I missed , what I will loss ?
So it's a very common set of question . But what is different is you either stay in that mood , panic , or stuck there , or you're trying to think creatively or leverage some of the resource friend , mentor and create something to bridging that gap , become a problem solver .
So that's kind of differentiate , the different mindset you have for for someone to stay comfortable in current state or someone very open for criticism , for feedback , for the opportunity to change or embrace the risk . So that's how I look at it .
Okay , I described myself at some stage as a restless man restless in the sense that and my parents were not really happy with this notion that I always felt that surely there's something more than waking up every day doing the same thing and then I go back to sleep . You know , at the end of the day , how restless are you .
Well , I don't craving for change Like if there's no need to do so . We are not wise to just for the sake of change , but when it's necessary , when you can create options , when there's better options , when there is make sense in your current life stage , for your purpose , for your goal or for your current situation , and then it is necessary to change .
So I would say I'm happy to sit there to read a book for a couple of hours , but if I smell the change I won't sit around . And then that's the rest list . To start . I will start to prepare , make a list , start to Google or ask the chat GPT now and start to say to visualize how the change will look like if I do this , if I do that .
And then you know the default is always a plan B , which is nothing happens .
Which is nothing happens . Yeah , well , I mean that for a lot of people probably that is a plan A . When you say you smell a change , meaning the definition of change here is an opportunity for something better . Is that the definition of it ?
Sometimes it can be better . I mean , for example , if you have to do a house moving , you have to buy all the boxes . That's all the investment . First right , you have to spend your weekend searching for a property and that property could be more expensive , could be at a worse location , could be all sorts of things .
Sometimes it's not overall better , but then if you think another way , I can reorganize my things , I can throw away or donate
¶ Comfort Zones and Change Management
things I don't need . I can detox from the current life . I can change the city , change the scenery , the upper side . Sometimes it is exciting . Even though you do have sunk costs , you do have friction . I mean , life itself is never perfect . There's always a friction , as long as it doesn't hurt , doesn't hurt your health , doesn't hurt too much financially .
I would tend to look at the brighter side of the things and thinking about the upper potential .
Susan , I've had the pleasure of listening to you multiple times in the past talking . You always mention something which is really I mean , I've reflected on that and I stopped and I thought at some stage I'm going to ask you about it . You always say you are 100% made in China . You always say you are 100% made in China .
What's the emotion behind this statement ?
Yeah , it is true , I think , as an international student , I'm terrified to introduce myself . I think that's how it started . And when my English is not perfect , the less I speak , the less problem you can find from my english . The shorter sentence is better . You look at your close labor . It just struck me to say 100 made in china . I'm like you know what .
That's also me . Um , I'm 100 content , I'm worshipful , I'm go with any blind I you know , throw me in a dryer , I'll survive the toughness . Where come from ? What I'm proud of , my origin , what I look like , what I represent don't make sense . 100% made in China .
So that's how it started and it's always become my identity the depth of your relationship to your culture and your ethnicity and your parents and family , and I really like that . I mean every time you mention that and although you say it in your own wonderful way of making it really simple , but it's certainly deeper , in my opinion .
Anyway , from China to Australia , from an international student to a global knowledge worker , from a software engineer okay to a creative technologist , to Google , you were an introvert , but now you're talking at TEDx and apparently you've been to the Burning man . The hell are you doing there ?
And this is why it prompted me to think God , I'm talking to a restless person in here , but I think sometimes it comes across that your life so far the majority of it is not quite by design . Or am I wrong with this ?
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I think you're right . I came from a traditional family in China . By design , I should marry when I'm fresh out of the college , when I'm 22 . I should have two kids before I can see the end of it . And that's exactly not what I wanted . That's why I boarded the flight and study as an international student . I think a majority of students .
They came here because the parents selected school . They talked to different recruitment agency . The parents have planned it all . I did the opposite way . I did my English test , I got my admission paper , I got
¶ (Cont.) Comfort Zones and Change Management
my offer . The only thing I need is the money to buy the flight ticket . And that's the time I tell my parents and say , hey , this is your lovely kite you're flying , which is myself . And here is the scissors in my hand and I'm kind of like cutting myself loose , but I'm still keeping in that , keeping that tie .
But that's how I just started , that's how I see .
What's the upbringing and what wired me inside of me is kind of different from people and I have this small voice or small personality inside of me and just anxious to see the world so similar to burning man ever been there and these people say it's dangerous , it's also fun , it's one of the lifetime experience . A google founder . They went there .
You know the first google doodle . Um , every day change right . It started because of the burning mind . That's the first doodle Google ever have , because Sergey and Larry went there and part of the company culture of free lunch is coming from the Burning man culture , the giving and not expecting something return .
So I just enjoyed and curious , like where's the Google culture coming from Burning man ? I want to go there and experience myself and a product . After I experience , I quit google . It's so comfortable .
So everything start to , you know , like a fly well , and start to spin from there and just one after another and get to where I am now we're gonna come back to this concept of the flywheel .
You've gotten your wheel , you've got in your journey a lot of pivots , and I'm just curious , susan , when we look at an opportunity or we look at the unknown for us , how do you personally recognize whether it's actually something that you need to pivot for , or is it just a noise ?
At some point in my life , I think , when I , for example , when I left , left china , I can only bring two suitcase of things and at that time you know , from a family don't have a lot of money my parents pack a rice cooker and toilet paper 20 rolls and you open the rice cooker , there's one row sitting inside .
That's how much things you said , the , how much they care about your life , what they worry the most and what you can pack with your life , and that's what I bring to Australia . And then I realize the physical things .
That's how much limit you can bring in the physical size of a cage , of a suitcase or paper or any physical form , suitcase or on paper or on any physical form .
But experience you bring in your mind , in your photograph , in your audio , in your voicemail , that's , that's invaluable and you can carry that forever in your life and that's become your legacy , your your life of love when you talk to your friends later on or when you're looking at a photograph 10 years ago .
So I feel like from that point on I will only collect experience rather than any physical goods , because at the end of the day we're not bringing anything um when you are leaving this world . So that's become kind of the foundation of the change when I'm looking at anything . If I'm collecting a new experience , well , I go for it .
I like that . And I like I mean experiences are what really we can enjoy and we can share . Everything else is just trivial if you actually think about it . You described yourself as an introvert before . Are you still an introvert ?
Yeah , I've done my MIT MRBI the test before .
The MBTI yeah .
Yeah , mbti , I'm still , yeah , I'm still .
People are hard to change . You know it . People are hard to change . And how does this introvert operate in a public arena ? What goes internally inside of you to actually help you be the person on a stage ?
Yeah , I think being an introvert and being the quiet or being the loudest compared with extrovert is two different things . Even though I can be an introvert , I can use written form . I used to write something called Friday's 3.30 report to all my team and share some of the conference I went to .
I went to , for example , grace Hopper conference in US in 2016 , and I shared 57 slides of the trip report to my team of the things I learned . I met Jeff Dean of Google Brand . At that time . I met a different company and what is their new selling point or what's their new product ? All of the things .
And people used to joke your emails reads like a VP reports . Even if it's my sick email , like all email , they took a lot of interest because I make it so fun . Then people start to remember me . I think that's called visibility . Even though my English is not that good , I can write it .
I can use a form , I'm good at it , I'm putting the humor and people will still know about me . So I think that's a very subtle power of influence . I'm definitely not the loudest in the room , but I can be the kindest , I can be the most interesting . I can be the most memorable person in other form .
So that's kind of like I found my niche and people start to remember it and we should not confuse quietness with introversion .
Anyway , yeah , an introvert or extrovert majority of us actually are . Different things at different times . Yeah , yeah , outside work , I am quiet in my own corner . That's why I took up running , because it's a very lonely thing where I can think , even at the gym . Yeah , I'm not one of those people where I can think even at the gym .
Yeah , I'm not one of those people that will have a chat at the gym . I am there , focused on something . But the way we get our energy from is around this internal processing , and so I'm always interested in how what people actually go through internally before an event . And so you did mention the word influence .
You do use a lot of comic statements in there . Is that it's like almost like you ? That is your personality and you wanted to embrace it . And the more we show of ourselves on a stage it's kind of funny because the more the authentic the message comes across . Is that who you are in real life ?
Yeah , I found it's hard to fake . People say fake it until you get it . I found it's very hard to fake you are powerful , you have a power . Uh , posture . My english is not perfect . Everyone can spot grammar mistake if I speak more than three sentence . Um , I just thought it's more easy , breathable and more fun just to be myself .
I get a lot of feedback after different conference and people come just to be myself . I get a lot of feedback after different conferences and people come talk to me and say because I said which example and it struck them and it stays with them forever . And then I gradually build so many different relationships from all the different audience speakers .
We keep in touch , we swap notes , I feel like be humble and listen to everyone's story . I end up learning more than what I speak on the panel of different conference . I think the personal connection as a butterfly
¶ Collecting Experiences Over Things
effect afterwards is more nurturing and rewarding . And I also think life is hard enough . Just looking at last night wake up one o'clock , three o'clock , five o'clock to feeding a baby . No one's going to be happy about it , but what you can do , I can just maybe laugh about it trying to get a massage and think , ok , I can do it .
All the moms can do it . I can try to talk to someone . Looking at the brighter side . I have a healthy baby , what I can ask him for more . So , brighter side , I have a healthy baby , what I can ask him for more . So you just have to . You can make your life harder .
You can decide to make it a little bit more entertaining , lighter , and have something looking forward to moving on right . I know the face will be passed by . You told me kids are growing really fast . They are in tiktok age . You never wish for them to grow as fast . So I listen to your advice . I feel like you know what . I'm probably just enjoying it .
At the moment I can still hold this human being in my arms before they push you away .
So that's kind of become who I am , and you seem to create meaning around all of your experiences . I want to shift gear , but before I do that , I want to ask you was there a time that you stuffed up big time and then you thought you know , that was rubbish and that's cool ? I will learn from this and I'm going to have to move on .
I have a lot of moments like that . I think people don't realize it . You know , for example , PhD is such a lonely and hard journey .
Sorry , that is exactly why I'm asking the question is because what we see we see the Susan who is just happy and accomplished and you know it's got everything in balance but what they don't see is what happens and the struggle and the fight and the thinking and the stuff that , the real stuff , that happens behind the scenes .
Exactly , there's two . People said . My husband is seeing me three o'clock laying on the ground . I just dragged my hair and he's just like crying just as much as my baby . The other one is my therapist , right .
But at the same time we have to understand people have basic dignity and for me to get my energy , like you mentioned in the beginning , talking to people , learning from them , for me is equivalent to a mother's group right . So people get energy back at a different form . I found myself being useful . Make me happy . I feel like I'm still useful .
I still have this value to bring to my family , to the society . Make myself have something looking forward to make myself pick me up . Pick myself up and saying this is this hardship worth enduring ? But it doesn't mean I don't suffer .
I know I look very slim , happy , but of course people can't see the two caesarean 10 centimeter scar swallowing beneath the clothes . Just because that looks nice with a dress doesn't mean I didn't suffer . But I don't want to give people false message . I also tell them how much time I spend on different things , how much support .
I always mention my husband looking after the two kids . Well , I can do multiple things just because I have a really fantastic support system . Without that , I can't do any of them and I yeah . So I think that's the reality there's .
You can only see the glorious side on the surface on social media , because different platform created differently to offer different facelets . But in the meantime , yeah , I endure all the hardship , just as everybody else .
I was sharing this little story with a friend of mine saying and please , this is not an advice to people you know listening to this .
But I was saying if I am not sore from the gym , I don't feel good , and that constant soreness is a good indicator for me that I am , you know , on track , that I am contributing , that I'm looking after my , my fitness and my body . What do you think of this statement ?
I like it because you know your limit right . So everyone has a different threshold of pain of things you can take on and there's no judgment . You can work on one thing and work on it really well . That's the strength Someone can do multitasking and enjoying different things . That's their choice . So I think you know your limit and you are very persistent .
You have different attributes . You will be good at certain different things . So I think that's kind of diverse bringing to the team right . Otherwise no one builds the same and no one fit in all , especially now you know everyone's the job force is all different with all the tools available and everyone is different .
And then you know , bring the best things out of everyone is more important than judging it on the same cover .
I want to ask you something that I always think about and I've got something that I need to act on . There's always those two forces between a fear of failure , but I'm too damn curious about it .
So those two forces in there happening at the same time , I think the difference between movement forward or staying the same is which one is going to win at the end of the day . Talk to me about how you manage those two forces in there .
I think I definitely learned that in a corporate world . Someone said you know , you have to be brave enough to suck at something new . I think in the corporate world , especially in startup , you afford to fail and fail fast . That's a startup culture , because that's how you learn .
But obviously it's different when you in a life situation or you work a different agency . You have so much , um at cost . You can't make that decision so easily . So that's what I feel like . I can be responsible for my own life .
Then I'm happy to take my own life as an experiment if I'm not hurting anyone else , right , because you can't control the environment , you can't control others .
But I can be responsible for my life and I'm happy to sign up my life for a roller coaster , um , as long as I know the tournament condition , I know all the things I may be encounter or maybe not , but that is my risk appetite and I'm happy to take it and the consequences to go with it .
Um , and I feel like , enjoy every moment , even though you are vomiting , even though you are struggling , when you're looking back you are just laughing at all those funny photos , as long as it's not life critical , right . So I think back to where I started . It's all part of the life experience .
It's all the up and down , makes up looks really fun and makes it down really miserable , and that's that's the quality of the life . That's your storyline and you want it to be vivid , interesting and have something to laugh about . When we reach 100 years
¶ Finding Your Voice as an Introvert
old , that will be fun and we can do a podcast when we are 100 years old .
That will be fun . Yes , Hopefully I'll be able to survive that long . Of course you will . I've always noticed , from my reading and observation and talking to a lot of guests , successful people always have sort of rituals and habits that they usually follow to actually help them stay grounded .
When you know , especially during change times or transition times or tough times , Do you have any rituals or habits ?
I like journal . The first part of the journal becomes the book . But I like to just write down my thinking , percepts , not just a to-do list , but sometimes I call it the life balance sheet . Even though it's never balanced out , I just write out what is almost like a SWOT analysis , but without a price tag .
I guess you write what is a threat , what is an opportunity and then what is a challenge . I really love the opportunity side , so my eyes are always wide open when I see the opportunity . And then my husband will remind me the potential , the loss and and and the risk .
So I guess the balance sheet I also balance out with my partner and how we balance the risk , how we look at life differently and balance out the life itself . So yeah , life balance sheet , that's what I normally do .
Whenever there's a new change coming , I'll , you know , draw a diagonal and then look at what is X , what is Y , what is upper potential and what we could lost , and then thinking about it . So I won't take any of the all of the change right , just some of them from that analysis . So that's the ritual I do every time before the change .
I like it and this is your anchor basically to keep you centered , because part of our success sometimes is actually saying no to new things .
I do . Sometimes I do say no to some of the change because it doesn't make sense . Sometimes it is exciting but it's not the right time to do the right thing . So you still have to keep logical . Not all the change are right . Not all the lost can't be recovered .
So it's very important , like you mentioned something , what we can learn from it , what we can experience and the upper side potential . But never take a change lightly because the consequences are also high . So you still have to use your personal experience , your judgment , ask some of your mentors .
Sometimes I tend to put myself as a third perspective and put my small person visually out of the thing and say , if I'm Ali or I don't know if I'm someone else what this person will do . And then if I know Ali really well , know you really well , I'll say , like you know , ali is a strong force of pivot .
He will think this change is fantastic , but from his experience it's not necessary , right ? So if I put myself outside that context and just do that exercise , you actually will know half of your answer by doing that .
And even this exercise , susan , is very sophisticated and very intelligent . It's not easy to put yourself in somebody else's way of thinking . However , as you mentioned , if you like somebody else's way of thinking , it might be a good idea to actually .
The whole idea of asking this question in a different way is so you step out of your own biases and look at it from a different perspective .
Yeah , definitely . I sometimes just ask you because you're a mastermind of change . I'll say what I will do .
I want to shift gear and talk about your book . I often think that people write books and , by the way , I've been thinking about writing a couple of books for years now , but I know at some stage that it'll happen . I think it's just a matter of timing and maturity . When people write a book , there's a lot of pain that goes with it .
There's a lot of expectations , a lot of editing . How was that for you ?
Well , I think my editor went through more pain than what we can imagine . Thinking about my English . I feel sorry for my editor what they've been through . I think I like reading and writing . I grew up in the environment of library reading and writing . I grew up in the environment of library .
I remember when my mom was a librarian for the 30 years in the state library in China over a hundred years history of the state library I always run to the room to read a new book and smell it and that make my nose , the tip of my nose , black because of the ink at that time .
You know it's not not as quality paper and before I read a lot of the script before I can recognize all the characters . Whichever book smells the best , I pick up that one . So that's kind of the natural instinct of the books . I love the cover design . I love the story and the different world folded away inside those simple pages .
And that idea came in 2019 when COVID hit and we are at home and I have all these thoughts going on in my brain and that's become a venue for me to pour into it and I call it life outside my comfort zone . Follow a Dutch saying go drug in Dutch , my colleague , my google colleague , told me means go dragon go .
But if you use google translate it's actually say go to the dungeon .
so I hope people using , I hope the dutch people know it and don't google translate it I still trust my google colleague for the name , and including in that book 12 chapters nine in chinese and nine english and three in chinese I kind of push the reader outside their comfort zone to learn chinese . It's fun , right ?
It's my first debut of the book and I fortunate enough to launch it with talks at google in uk and a couple of different book events in china , aust Australia and in the US and meet some of the readers and read their feedback .
I still want to go to Amazon to read all the different feedback from the first book , even though it's quite embarrassing to still look at the English . That's why my second book is totally in Chinese . Back into my comfort zone .
What would your second book be about ?
Second book will be a more academic book . It's AI Economy .
It will be published by one of the largest publishers in China , called China Business Publisher Group , and it very much concent concentrate off my research , knowledge economy , attention economy , smart education and , in the whole backdrop of the industrial revolution , for Ponderio , influencer phenomena and all things related to AI , and it should be coming out towards end
of this year , I hope .
Well , I cannot read in Chinese , so at some stage I hope that is going to be translated into something that I can actually read .
You can learn Mandarin from Duolingo you can download today and just step outside your comfort zone and embrace the change .
I will take you up on that . Yeah , definitely
¶ Writing Books and Creating Legacy
I want to ask you about and congratulations for your first book and congratulations in advance for your second book . I think , especially in the age of AI now we need voices like yours to keep us grounded of what this technology can actually help us with . I'm certainly very optimistic in that particular field . I'm always curious .
You know what people become after all of these live experiences . Titles change , you know , roles evolve , yet there's always that question who am I becoming through this ? Who are you becoming ?
Who am I becoming ? I used to tell my team how I lead is who I am . In that sense , character is hard to change . I told you in the very beginning I'm still made in China and still a product of China . I think I'll stay in that identity for as long as I am .
But the person I became is no longer the very shy international student girl sitting at a corner of the classroom . This person be able to raise raise up my hand and ask the first question in the board meeting . I think that's a change . I no longer say yes to all the things I'm not supposed to take on .
I be able to stay calm when there's confrontation before I will be stressed and worried and feel like I did everything wrong , which is never true .
Um , I think I changed to become trust , my instinct and knowledge a little bit more than 15 years ago as an international student , because I learned so much and have so much help from all the different mentors and have people who believe in me . Yeah , so I think that's that's who I am now and laugh a little bit more from all the hardship .
After all the good cry , there's always a good laugh too .
Always , yes , always , always , yes , always . I want to share a story with you that I've taken up running marathons in 2018 . And four years before that , I asked myself a question who would I want to be when I turn 50 ? What would my 50s look like ? And according to that question , or sobering question , I was able to plan for 2018 to do my first marathon .
But I did it big way . I did the ultra marathon , the Moroccan Desert , which was a marathon . This apps is one of the famous ones . Yeah , six days , six marathons in a 42 degree desert and you carry your own stuff and obviously the desert and I've , ever since I fell in love with doing those events .
The desert has got its own way to ground you as a human and let you , let you , ask all the questions that you've avoided asking yourself . And but one thing that happened to me over the years and after 16 , 17 marathons that I've done now the principle of finishing , and so I was always interested that the finish line is what I'm after .
And then I think you know , over the last two to three years and I talked about this also after finishing the Great Wall of China marathon I've realized , susan , that and again that's come . Come with maturity . The finish line is not the objective . Yeah , it's who you become after the finish line .
Yeah , and so when I go through 42.2 kilometers , there is a type of transformation happening in my body , obviously , but also mentally , and every time I do a marathon , something changes as well . And so I've realized that the finish line is not really the goal . It's who you become after crossing the finish line .
And that made me think about oh okay , so if we are running a project at work , going through the project and completing the project is not really the objective . The objective is that if you're a part of the project , who do you become after completing the project ? And your stakeholders ? How are they going to benefit ?
And their lives are hopefully better after you finish the project , not the finishing line , yeah , and so for me , writing a book , surely you are not really the completion of the book , but the person you become after reflecting on all of your thoughts in those pages .
Yeah , I agree . Where are you going in Marzl next ?
Well , this year I've got three . I've got a great Ocean Road marathon in about four weeks , I've got the Sydney marathon in August and I've got a New York marathon in November .
Oh my God , three in a year . You have fours .
Well , this year I set a personal challenge for me and also it's always fun when you go to different cities and doing those things , but I guarantee you the conversation and the learning will be completely different every time I do it . I'm a different person and every time I do it I go through the same struggles .
But remember it's not really the event , it leads to the event as well . So all the preparation it takes time to train for a marathon and you need time and I'm a strong believer that if something is so important for you , then you will make time for it .
Definitely .
I agree . And then the principle of challenge also has changed over the years . I used to think this is a personal challenge and I realized that to choose a challenge , a good challenge , is going to be good for you , good for your family and good for the community . So I raise money through those marathons . Nice .
It's good for me as a fitness , yeah , and it's good for my family , my son . I hope he will be inspired by all of these events .
I'm sure he will . He definitely will . All these influences are subtle , but you already plant the seed in his heart . I'm sure he is .
When you go through your pivots and do you think over time we become stronger . Do we think of this as a sort of a mental muscle ?
um , I think so . I remember my farewell email from google on my last day . I wrote joining google make me strong , leaving google make me stronger . I know it's kind of naive when you were young you write that way , but still I feel like that's true . Every different experience taught me different things , every different type of work .
I learned it in a hard way . As you mentioned , I used to be a software engineer and then I was leading the global public policy for TikTok . I never even learned about it and I learned it at the job .
I learned it from the people who believe and trust me and even followed me change from one team one other , just because they feel like they've been seen in the team and seen their potential . Because they feel like they've been seen in the team and seen their potential and they feel like they have career progression if
¶ Leadership Through Kindness and Support
they in my team and that's all inspired me and feel like , oh , maybe I'm a little bit , I'm good at leadership in a different way , even though I'm not the strongest leader in the room , but I'm probably most supportive , caring and be able to support them , navigate some of the hardship , be able to endure when things not doing well instead of just all the
glorious things and we celebrate often . We have a really strong team culture because of that and we made lifelong friends . So , as you mentioned , I feel like I go through a different pivot . I probably gained a lot of different friendship . I probably lost someone on the journey as well . You will never have all the people like you .
You know it's impossible and you have to make peace with it . You can only do so much as long as you are responsible for your life and yourself . You are not hurting others . You can't control what the narrative other people believe in or want to see , but you can always be the best version of yourself and that's what my parents told me .
They say regardless of how other people treat you maybe because they are from different circumstances , maybe they have something going on you always treat everyone the best way you can because that's how they will remember you . You never lower your manner to sort of equal with other people's attack never , so that's .
That's kind of the kind of generosity or the life attitude I learned . I would want to treat everyone as best as possible . At least I feel like at peace and I feel I did everything I can and there's no regret from there and whatever returns is out of my control and move on .
And that piece is very important and they're very wise words from your parents . Something that drives me personally , susan , is that I constantly maybe I abandoned a lot of fear in the past . Maybe I also don't look for recognition in any way . What's helping me every single day is that .
What value do I need to add to the people around me , and what experience would I like to leave people with when they interact with me ? Do I want to leave them with a nice positive experience or do I want to leave them with something different ?
And I choose the positive experience because it's going to be good for me , it's going to be good for them and it's going to be good for the people that they're going to interact with and hopefully , through that they get I don't know , maybe they might be inspired or they actually pick up something in there . So that is what keeps me sane .
Every day , similar to you , slightly different way .
Yeah .
I like it . Yeah , I am coming close to the end of the podcast , but I've got a couple of questions for you and so many people listening to this may be in the middle of something or a shift they didn't expect or a path they aren't sure of , and your story holds a lot of encouragement .
If someone listening uh here and stuck in their personal change story , what is something that you would want them to hear , not just intellectually , probably emotionally as well I think , for example , for the career change you , you can only want to be better yourself .
It's not other people's responsibility to make you look nice and give you the promotion yourself from the inner self . You have to be want to be better . You have to be want to um , listen to the critical feedback and decide from it which part you can take on and transform . So that is a inner work .
I think if you want to get a reward , you have to put the hard work . But at the same time , I think there's nothing wrong to be ambitious . I'm never shy away from the things I want to get . I think it's okay . You want good and better things .
I think that's give your life a purpose and hope , whether it's a tangible thing or a dream come true or an experience . You can admit you want all of that and then work for it . And people can judge , people can say different things . It doesn't really matter in that sense . But you don't have to hide away .
I think there's nothing wrong to be visible and relevant for different um things you are chasing um and , like you mentioned , people will see the authentic self , people you want to be um together or in the same crowd . They , they will value your advice or value your presence in that circle . So yeah , it's okay to be ambitious .
I look at it this way is that if somebody is also in a situation , I always think , just take the first step and see what happens , and maybe take the second step and see what happens . And you mentioned the fail fast . I've actually reflected on this for a while now and I've started calling it .
You need to fail honestly , and failing honestly means then you're really going to have to spend a lot of time reflecting on that experience and learning as much as you can from it . That's when you become honest with yourself . Yeah , yeah , and this is the internal dialogue that you talked about .
But I love what you mentioned is that I can be more blunt than this , susan . I can say nobody cares about your career direction . You'll have to take charge of that . Yeah , and taking charge requires effort and time and thinking . And if you don't have any of those , that's okay , cool .
Maybe you seek help from somebody else , maybe you listen to this podcast , maybe you read Susan's book , maybe go and listen to another podcast , but the idea is that sitting doing nothing is not really the best option at this stage .
Yeah , exactly , I feel like people normally regretted things they didn't do rather than done right . Because you experience it , you can cross off your list and the the things left in your bucket are probably all your strengths or your unique selling point if you consider yourself as a product in the market .
I used to tell my team know , be kind to others with skills , be bold with care . So if I can choose between be kind or be right with someone , I always choose be kind first and everything else will follow . I think that will go a long way in the life experience you have with other human beings .
That is wonderful and I like that .
¶ Ambition and Authentic Growth
My last question to you is maybe we'll just end up with something really positive and nice and looking back with kindness , as you mentioned , if you could sit across from your younger self the one just starting out .
What would you say about that change and what that change really means ? I'll say eat well , sleep well , be prepared for all the physical drain you are about to go through in the next 20 years . Always choose to be a good person to start with and be authentic . Um , admit you can do something , um good or not good at well said , you're free and people .
You will be surprised how much people are willing to help you and learn the skill and that's how you build your mentorship and friendship from that point on . And then that's how you step outside your comfort zone to learn from someone's strengths in their comfort zone .
I love it . I love it and thank you so much for your time . Susan , how would people get a hold of you , a copy of your book ?
They can go to Amazon and search for life outside your my comfort zone , Susan John , and you will find the second edition , the hard copy or paperback or audio book . If you're a member , I think that's free . Yeah , Feel free to leave me a critical feedback or comments . I'm looking forward to be better next time for my second or set book .
And if people want to connect with you , is LinkedIn the best option .
LinkedIn or my website , xiaoqinzhangcom . Or it's easier to search for LittleDragonme . It's also my website .
Fantastic . I want to read you a quote from Mark Twain . Please want to read you a quote from Mark Twain . And it says 20 years from now , you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did . So throw off the bound lines , sail away from the safe harbor , catch the trade winds in your sails .
Explore , dream discover . Oh , I love it .
Thank you so much . Pleasure having you in my podcast , the Inner Game of Change . Until next time , Susan , stay well and stay safe .
Thank you so much , looking forward to see you outside your comfort zone .
Thank you your comfort zone . Thank you . Thank you for listening . If you found this episode valuable , remember to subscribe to stay updated on upcoming episodes .
Your support is truly appreciated and , by sharing this podcast with your colleagues , friends and fellow change practitioners , it can help me reach even more individuals and professionals who can benefit from these discussions . Remember , and in my opinion , change is an enduring force and you will only have a measure of certainty and control when you embrace it .
Until next time , thank you for being part of the Inner Game of Change community . I am Ali Jammah and this is the Inner Game of Change podcast .