E79 - Adaptive Change for Real Impact - Podcast with Margo Waldorf

So sometimes the outcome can be negative , but the effort that you have given , you've actually grown through that and you've learned a lot , and then perhaps you can move it to something else .

Today , I welcome the inspiring Margot Waldorf , founder of the Global Change Awards and a true change leader , on a mission in the field of workplace transformation . As the CEO of the Global Change Awards and director at Change Ready Workplace , margot is a passionate advocate for making change a skill that everyone can master .

Her work is reshaping the way organizations approach change management and leadership . In this episode , we dive into the role of change management , the power of leadership and sponsorship , and what it means to be an influencer in the field .

We explore the critical topic of making an impact , offering insights and inspiration for expert change managers , those new to the profession and anyone considering a career focused on meaningful work and driving real transformation . This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about making a difference in the workplace . Let's get started .

Well , margot , thank you so much for joining me in the Inner Game of Change podcast . I am eternally grateful for your time .

It started effectively with me , my own experience and career , and at some point during that I have discovered this new discipline which has been slowly forming , and the discipline is called the change management organizational change management , if you wish . Um and um .

Quite curious to figure out what it is , um , truly um went to get myself trained in it , met a lot of people . I was part of the Change Management Institute for a while , also leading the UK sorry , not the UK the London chapter for the Change Management Institute , and that effectively has given me a lot of exposure to people that work in the discipline .

What it also did to me is that it made me realize that really , the discipline is growing . There is more to be discovered . So it's not only what we perceive it as it is to be , it needs to be modernized .

But it also made me realize that within the organizations okay , this discipline is , I don't want to say hardly unknown , but we hire people to do things and then we forget about those people . So we are not recognized .

Project management , program management really well-established disciplines , very well-recognized , and change management , unfortunately , or organizational change management , unfortunately , isn't Yet . There is a lot of people that come into this discipline . Some of them would come from the project management side of the business , some of them would come from HR , the comms .

They have fallen into this and they love it and they are connected by understanding that this discipline is so different from anything else that surrounds it .

Right , so the discipline is forming and then it made me realize that they are truly and I've always been using this , by the way they are truly the unsung heroes of change , because even though they come into those institutions , organizations , they really um , they deliver something and then they need to move on to somewhere else and there never is that that point

of recognition . Um few years back , that discipline would be only hired as a freelance , so you would have people come over to do their project and then leave the company . So very rarely you would have organizations that have the change management function internally , so that recognition that would normally come from within the corporate world wouldn't be possible .

And that's how I've decided . That's basically why I have decided to set up or found the Change Awards so effectively looking at the organizational change management , recognizing people who work in the organizational change management and , hopefully , moving the profession forward right .

So making sure we are a little bit different , differentiating ourselves , modernizing ourselves , different differentiating ourselves , modernizing ourselves , pushing into those areas where it's just beyond organizational change management .

And I'm happy to talk about this , by the way , because I think that OCM is just a part , a tiny little snippet of what the change management profession has in offer .

What would be some of the trends that you've noticed coming through those candidates and those winners ?

We change them every year because we have had exposure to what is happening in the market and we want to make sure that this actually reflects the market so effectively these categories are effectively most of them are already reflecting the current trends .

So what is happening here at the moment is that we have recognized that within corporates , what we need to push in terms of awareness is the sponsorship for change . So it's not that the change management function comes in and delivers the change . It's never like that . We can only facilitate the change .

So we need to make sure that there is a sponsorship for change . That means somebody within the organization , a stakeholder , a number of stakeholders within the organization . They actually go and deliver the change and we obviously write plans for them on how to do that and help them how to do that . Like I said , facilitate that , but we need to have it done .

So we need to have that stakeholder engagement . So sponsorship for change is a trend which I hope is moving , spreading within the corporate world . Another trend is definitely the technology .

So what we've been seeing in terms of the amount of applications is that more and more people are now working on technology projects whatever that is whether this is a big ERP implementation or small process changes in relation to the system that has come in . So that's kind of trend . Number two Then we also have , I suppose , your sustainability .

So you know , when we look at people , profit , planet , that type of projects , so it's getting more to the surface . I think that change management is just it could be beyond your typical , because I think it started with SFW technology implementation . You know , do some training around it , make sure that people follow from the day number one . It's beyond that .

So now we can see that this is also happening and there is this huge push on . I suppose we would call them change makers , so people or organizations who have discovered that there is a need to drive positive change and they realized that they wanted to do something about it . So that is , I suppose , additional .

The third trend , which is that changemakers discover something new and they have decided to do something about it . Discovered something new and they have decided to do something about it . So that again links a little bit to the people , profits and finance type of strategy . But I would say these are the biggest trends .

They , they see that bigger purpose . It's completely different to , um , what we would perceive the purpose to be as people in our 40s , right ?

So I definitely think that people that see they need to do something and they would do something and it's not only people , by the way , it's also organizations that maybe smaller organizations , maybe not the big multinationals , but small organizations that would see the needs to impact positively local societies or communities .

Or maybe they've always been there but we've just never provided them an opportunity to actually be visible . You know , maybe that's what it is , yeah , and I think it's um , it's important for us to be able to provide them with that platform . So you know , we should be recognizing effort is very important . It's often we think that .

I think it's more of a fixed mindset thinking that , you know , we think that achieving something , the actual achievement , is the goal . It's actually not . It's actually not , like that what we should be praising is the effort that we give in order to create something , despite of the outcome .

So sometimes the outcome can be negative , but the effort that you have given . You've actually grown through that and you've learned a lot , and then perhaps you can move it to something else . So that's my point of view , though .

finish line was the most important thing , and that was maybe eight , nine years ago . And so I'll finish a marathon and I'm thinking that is it . I finished the marathon , so the finish line was the one that I was after .

So one of the lessons that I've learned over the years , mango , is that the essence of the marathon is not , I mean , apart from the effort you need to make .

The effort is not the finish line , it's the person you become after the finish line and then so when I think about projects or change , yes , effort is important , but I would like to know who you've become after 6 to 12 months , or even more than that , running a project , because only I will be very interested in you as a professional and your development and

what you've learned throughout this particular process . Not that we finished a project and we moved on . Is that what you're actually referring to ?

Right , you can pause and reflect on what you have achieved over the last year or five years , but actually , the efforts , the learning , everything that has led to the outcome like I said , regardless of what the outcome is is the thing that's the most important . So , using your analogy , I'll give you my story . So I am not a marathon runner .

Uh , frankly , I'm very bad at running and I have this , I have this app on my phone , and I've had it on my phone for I don't know the last

10 years probably , which is very embarrassing . It's called Coach to 5K . So this is the app that teaches you how to run 5K , and every so often I would go on the treadmill and every so often I would switch on the app , and it's very easy . By the way , you're supposed to run , I think , three days per week . It's built literally foolproof .

It's built to allow you to learn your body to adjust in time and learn to run the 5k regardless of your pace . Okay , so you could be running 5k in 45 minutes or an hour , it doesn't matter .

So every so often I do that , I switch on the app and I , you know , I just , yes , I feel like now is the time I'm so determined I'm definitely going to go and within the next eight weeks , 5k is mine . And you know , determination is there and I always finish , by the way , whenever I start .

But starting from scratch , it feels painful During this whole running half an hour on the treadmill , 35 minutes on the treadmill maybe the first day , first week , is painful . The second week you realize that the actual act of running is what is liberating , and you can .

I , for example , I listen to audio books when I run and then that gives me that I don't know , it's like almost my mind gives in to listening and the action of running is just something that is passive . And I think that is the most important thing , because you learn .

Sure , you teach your body how to run for half an hour in order to get that 5K , but the actual action , that's the thing that is actually liberating . So so , going back to what you said before , which is that who have you become after you ?

You've gotten there , so you need to appreciate the journey , because that journey is what has led you to become who you are after you've run 5k , after you've run the marathon , after you have finished that project . That's the learning .

That's understood as an organization's mindset . So you've got the red mindset organization so effectively . That means that within the organization , there is always a number of things that you need to do operationally in order to sustain the business right , and that makes sense .

In order for us to make profits and remain in the market , we need to do those minimal things five things , 10 things , whatever , depending on the complexity . However , in the long time , that's not enough .

We have plenty of examples of organizations which have just stuck in this red mindset , so they have just continuously delivered , regardless of what were the market trends , regardless of the environment around them . We're telling them to do , and those organizations don't exist anymore . They have failed .

So that means that you need to cultivate the blue mindset , so you always have to have this sustained operations , but you always still should have this . You should provide an environment for people to fail to learn to innovate , and I think that is what the change management allows .

So change management for me , is not necessarily only about helping organizations when the project comes in and providing the training , making sure that people know what's going on for them at the right time . People know what's going on for them at whatever , the right time .

It's also about helping leaders to understand that they need to create the right environment to make the change possible , whatever the change is .

So they need to source the ideas from within the organization in order to move the organizations out of their red mindset into the blue mindset and implement those projects , or implement those mini projects or mini processes or whatever . It is many reasons behind that .

Obviously , one of the reason is that people are more motivated because they feel that they have a lot of control over what they do . So that's um , um , you know , that's . That , I think , is very important .

People , especially these days , they want to feel that um , it's a bilateral agreement , I come in to deliver , but you come in and you provide , but you also allow me to deliver the things that I want to do . Otherwise I'm unhappy and I can go and change and go work somewhere else .

So for me personally , that is what I would like the leadership to think about .

What you're saying is that you always got to have to create this environment for people to experiment and go out of their normal responsibility , Because innovation actually has got a very positive impact on morale in the team , but you also think that change managers can play an active role in that environment . Can you double-click on that ?

Can you actually go deeper into that and can you double click on that ?

That is the easiest way of doing it and we would say , in a normal scenario , you will have a very common scenario . I think this is the most common scenario is that there is a company . They're implementing a I don't know a new ERP system .

They employ a bunch of project managers , maybe a program manager , depending on how big or small this is and they will also employ change management function . Okay , and then again , depending on complexity , but let's , you know , let's keep it simple . So there will be a change manager . They come in , they look at the business change .

Okay , they'll do some impact assessment type of activities . They'll figure out how to split the audiences . They'll say , okay , audience one , they need to get this training . Audience B needs to get that training . These are the communication that these people are going to receive . This is how are we going to track it ?

These are the kind of you know we're going to measure the way that we are doing this at this point and at that point , and hopefully by the end of the implementation on day one , the majority of the organization that is impacted by this change is going to be feeling fairly confident in working on the new system . Okay , that's exactly what it is .

What I think is that change management as such , it's actually a broader concept . It's much broader than this Because , effectively , if you go and read all those books on change management 101 , they will always start from the angle of a human , of an individual right . They will always teach a little bit about the way that humans perceive change .

They will always talk about this . They will always talk about this . They will always talk about the mindset . They will always talk about you know your five stages of grief . You freeze and freeze , etc . Etc . Yet actually in the corporate setting , very rarely this is there , was . There's no practical , practical application for it . Really it's you still .

You know , when you are a change manager , you still come in , use some sort of model , whatever the model you will be using and just lead people through that .

So my point is that organization change management , or change management , if you wish , is a broader concept and should be considered as a broader concept , that human side of change , your personal change , which we should be talking about more , should be also including the innovation part of it , because change always is a starter for innovation , whatever the innovation

is . So how do we affect that individual within the workplace ? What kind of environment we need to create for that individual in the workplace so that individual feels that they can go beyond , feels that they like using our analogy , they like the run . They didn't necessarily feel like they need to finish or win effectively , they just like that .

You know that's the length of that . They like the process effectively . So that's how I see change management and that's how I would like this discipline to start evolving .

So and the second thing is that what you're talking about here , my girl which correct me if I'm wrong we need to focus a lot on the mindset , not just the environment , and the mindset around change , rather than because we all go through our own experiences differently , we all manage change differently .

At a personal level Social contract that I have with you today as an employee I may like you today , but then you introduce a change and I will not like you tomorrow because that's how it is . And this is why we need to focus a lot on the mindset and the environment . As you mentioned , it's a long game better than the short game .

The short game is always short-term thinking , is always going to cause problems for us , because you can finish a project , you can finish the finish line , but then who cares if the experience is bad and if the adoption is not there and you start all over again ?

And so my counsel always to my stakeholders I actually give them the questions they should be asking me and my fellow change managers . The questions include as a result of this change strategy and the way you would like the organization to adopt the change . Why have you chosen this particular strategy ? How is that going to influence their change experience ?

How is that going to influence even the engagement within the organization ? How is that going to change the mindset of people towards change ? Now , that is what we're talking about here , margot . It's very hard stuff and a very long term in there .

Unfortunately , the challenge is that majority of organizations until now , they look at a challenge manager as a resource that will come in there and get out within a certain period of time . Actually , they don't even get it A project manager will decide to have a challenge manager in there .

I think recently , over last couple of years , there's definitely intention from our change management community

to have a better seat at the table and that to have those conversations and I always talk about . That's all well and good , but you'd better say meaningful stuff at the table and this is when you move from being in that space to an influencer , which is actually one of the award categories I think that you had .

We need to move into the influencer zone , and that is not an easy thing , However , it's actually very rewarding .

That goes back to your mindset and 100 percent cover , honestly , 100% behind that , um , notion that the mindset is very important and organizations should be cultivating that mindset . Um , you know that curiosity , that you know that type of mindset which is which is the growth . We call it the growth mindset , right ? Um , that's , that's very much beneficial .

Um , we , as a change management profession , and particularly I think that I would prefer , or I would like to see the bodies of knowledge who define the standard for change management profession to actually be more changing and cultivating change and more modernizing as a profession we need , like you said , we need an influencer and I would say , given the way that

the market is currently the change management market is currently fixed , in a way , I would like to see those organizations lead the way . Okay , the reality is that they don't lead the way . It is what it is and perhaps that's why I think the change management profession needs to unite .

If the change management profession sees a development of the profession , they should be uniting and they should be trying to establish the new and modern approach . Because I think , like I said , organization change management the one that we , like you said , when people get employed , usually the project manager comes in and employs them .

That is just a snippet of the offering that we've got . Our offering is much broader than that , because our offering is also touching the leadership , coaching , training , coaching , touching that mindset part of it , which is literally people , person to person , and therefore is also really touching the innovation part .

So organizations should be looking at change management from a completely different perspective . The reality is different , right ? So we've got , like you said , we've got people that there is a project you employ , come in , leave and that's it . And that's why the change always tended to happen , because I felt that we owe it to the profession to become visible .

Okay , because that profession is just invisible , and particularly in the UK market when we have an opportunity to make it a chartered profession . So it's a bit of a different setup in the UK , but you can get a royal charter and your profession becomes more professionalized , if that makes sense , you know . That's why I think we need that unity .

We need that unity of the change management profession People who think that the offering that they have and they are currently offering organizations just not enough , because they know they work in those organizations and they know that they can make a better difference but the contract , like you said , the contract that they have with those organizations is really really

limited because it's much smaller .

So I am actually on the opposite side . But that does not come until you have a lot of credibility and the value that you bring to the organization and I have unmuted my voice five , six years ago . But then that comes with the responsibility . Obviously you're going to have to deliver the value the moment .

You do it with one organization or one project , or you know it can build up on that .

Would you agree that organizations that train new emerging change managers , like the ProSci Institute , the Cotter Institute I think the Cotter is probably doing a lot of changes now these organizations and even the Change Management Institute , I think they do some certification these organizations would need to rethink the way they introduce their certification and their degrees

. Oh , that's a difficult question for me .

These organizations and maybe I'll particularly talk from the CMI perspective because ACMP haven't been in depth really engaged with that organization but this Change Management Institute they are doing a lot of good . So they are providing that minimum qualification of what are the minimum things that you need to know in order to potentially go into a project .

We know for a fact that 80% of the skill is , you know , learned by doing in an actual environment . 20% is probably by reading something or learning from somebody else . So I think that they are in this ballpark . So these are the minimum things that you need to know about change management , organizational change management , in order to go deliver a project .

I can guarantee you that if you have no experience and you have just completed that training ,

you are going to struggle on the project . You still need to be . You're nodding , I get that .

You are going to struggle on a project and you still need to be um , you can yeah , you're nodding , I get that you still need to have somebody who's helping you , because the in reality and I think this is what makes the change management um profession so exciting is that reality is that people are the biggest wild cards .

That's the reality and you need to work with people and you are in an organization where there is a change being introduced . You will think , oh , okay , well , that's . You know , that's a bit of a cookie cutter for me , because I've done this in organization and let's say again again system implementation Pretty much cookie cutter . I've done this before .

This is going to be exactly the same here . It's never like that and that's why this makes the organization sorry .

This makes the change management profession and work really , really exciting , because every time there is something different , because you still need to be operating within the environment that is built by people , because every single organization is built by people and with people , and it's filled with people .

Look , and all of these organizations on the other side you know the Change Management Institute , acmp , prosite , cota . They are commercial entities . They are commercial entities . They are commercial entities , so they need to be making money . They will need to make sure that the offering that they have is the offering that is reflective of the market .

I would love them to stretch . I would love them to stretch and I know that some of them are stretching , by the way . So I know that some of them are stretching by the way , so I know that they are building new offering to make sure . Yeah , exactly so they are . So they are making sure and we've got . As with anything in life , it takes time .

Unfortunately , and this goes back to , I suppose , the environment that we sit in at the moment Change is really fast .

So sometimes , when you are developing a concept , after it's developed and reviewed and reviewed again , and developed again and tweaked , et cetera , et cetera , and then implemented to the market for the betterment of the change management , profession development , if you wish , sometimes it's really obsolete because the world has moved on so quickly .

So , unfortunately , some , some things you cannot change . But we still need those organizations to to drive um that standard and , like I said before , ideally in the uk market we need that unity behind the profession that would allow us to create that chartered status for the profession .

I know that the Cota Institute and the ProSci I'm involved with both and I know that they continuously think about better ways . Look , personally , I do not have any problem with the framework . I do have a problem that we think people would need to fit within a framework and that's not always the case .

Knowledge is important , but the application is a different game . But certainly knowledge is important . There's no doubt about that as well . When I say organizations the education organizations would need to rethink , it doesn't mean that they are doing a bad job , but the world is moving very fast .

As you mentioned , and , similar to you , you're running the Change Awards . You're changing the types of awards and the categories based on what the market , what's happening in the market . So you're already responding to the market forces in there and that's how you run this particular initiative , which is basically you know what other organizations would need to do .

But you were right , they are commercial entities . It's like a university . Universities now , in the age of AI , would need to rethink their offerings and going forward . Otherwise they will become obsolete because the technology will take over . So I am aware of the time . I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation .

You made me think about a couple of other things that I haven't really thought about . Final question to you what does success mean to you when it comes to change management ?

I remember this one thing , which was a meeting . It was a final meeting of the project . Some people were physically in the location , in the office room , some people were online on the other side location in the office room , some people were online on the other side and we had that final thank you and a bit of gratefulness from the leadership .

You know , we had donuts on the table , that type of situation . People had other bits and cakes and everything on the other side . And there was one thing that really stuck in my mind . It was this gentleman who suddenly clapped his hands and said okay , we are ready for the new one .

And I think that is the thing that really makes me want to work in change management , because you know that you have made a difference . And you haven't made it . You haven't made a difference yourself , but through facilitating and aligning people within the organization , you've made the difference , that they are ready . It wasn't an easy project .

They've done it very quickly . You know people have lost jobs . There was a lot of emotional part of it , but yet somebody says , okay , we're ready for the new one .

We're going to put a lot of information about you and the Change Awards and the podcast info . How would people connect with you ?

Yeah , and you know , if you wanted to reach out to us or change your words , just go to our website . There's a contact form , but you also can find our email address . So I think that's the easiest way .

Remember , and in my opinion , change is an enduring force and you will only have a measure of certainty and control when you embrace it . Until next time . Thank you for being part of the Inner Game of Change community . I am Ali Jammah , and this is the Inner Game of Change podcast .