E75 - Change Journey : Performer to Master - Podcast with Dr Jess Tayel

That's a very different ballgame altogether , yeah , and that's when the leader starts to realize , oh , maybe I don't know how to actually do this I need more , not just more in terms of more on the toolkit and some few tools . The mindset needs to change . The way I influence needs to change .

The way I speak the words , the language , the narrative needs to change . The way I influence needs to change the way I speak the words , the language , the narrative needs to change .

That's what starts to move them from the high performer to becoming an orchestrator , because now , basically , you're going deeper , because you're trying to create a change that is going to be adopted , which is not fully in your control .

Dr Thiel has over 25 years of experience in leading global change and transformation programs in senior leadership roles , guiding and leading large-scale change programs across 15 countries . She has worked with companies like Google , boeing , apple , emirates , world Cup , abn Amro , barclays and more .

Jess is also the founder of the People of Transformation Programming Community . In this episode , jess and I dive into understanding the transformation journey for professionals , discussing the challenges and the rewards and tracing the growth continuum from early development to mastery .

We discuss what it truly takes to overcome personal growth hurdles and how achieving mastery can bring profound rewards , not just for individuals , but for businesses and even society as a whole . I am grateful to have Jess chatting with me today . So , jess , thank you so much for joining me in the Inner Game of Change podcast . I am grateful for your time today .

Today we're going to cover one aspect of it , which is around leadership transformation and you've got your own thoughts and your own ideas around it and we're going to explore those . Let's start from the top , jess . What's your fascination with the transformation aspect of it ?

We need to be , we need to bring more of us into change and transformation , into change and transformation . We need to emphasize on the being rather than the doing , because basically , we're changing how people are seeing , relating feeling towards something , so they can actually do something different .

Designing , understanding the landscape , knowing where we're heading , taking a holistic view into how do we bring the change into the world ? Basically , seeing your change and transformation , as you're changing people's reality in some way and , depending on how big that change , we can call that transformational change or incremental change .

It's moving from ticking the box , a to-do list , something that you do , into something that you're actually changing for how people changing the landscape of people so that they can , as I mentioned before , see , feel and relate differently Moving from , if we're going to talk about the different levels of mastery , it starts with just doing tasks and pretty much every

one of us have passed through that point , especially in our early careers where we're following through , we have a boss that tells us what to do , we're doing the thing , and then we move to the performer stage .

And then we move to the achiever stage , where now you've got some runs on the board , you want to learn more , you're certifying , you're learning , you're attending conferences , listening podcasts and you're seeking out more opportunities in order for you to expand your impact .

And then we move to a high performer stage , where now it's not about simple problem solving , it's more about complex problem solving . We need things that stimulate us , challenge us , we want more , so that more responsibilities , more ways to kind of spread our wings and have that broader vision in order to influence others .

Up until now , these three levels pretty much a lot of our listeners , leaders , have achieved those three . Most leaders stagnate at the high performer stage Because , you know , this is what the market requires doing well got runs on the board , why not ? However , there are two more stages .

After being a high performer , which is an orchestrator , that's the one that follows , which really makes your impact go 10x more than being in a high performer stage , in the sense that the thing they have a lot of critical thinking , thinking strategically , adapting to the complexities . They've got a , an extensive toolkit .

They go deeper , beyond what is obvious , into something that is more in the invisible , to make sure that people , that we've got that change , adoption as success and connecting the dots . And then we move to a mastery stage , which is the last stage , and that is really where you're really embodying that deep , transformative change .

You're visionary , obviously lead with profound understanding of the human elements in the business . That's the major distinction and they're getting to the bottom of things much faster and better . They're huge advocates for doing the right things before doing things right . So that mastery stage and I can talk more about what it takes to get to that .

Stay there , so so basically , that's kind of our comfort zone and this is kind of uh , emphasized or something that is making this stagnation real . Is the achievement . How do we measure achievement ? Um , what does success look like ?

If success looks like doing more of the same , you know , keep delivering programs , projects , um , there is that limited definition of what success looks like . It's not holistic enough , it's not getting to the people element of things , uh , then that kind of uh , you know , puts us in that box of like , yeah , that's good enough , I'm still here .

Which begs another element into the equation is what does the organization see as the distinction between high performers and the need for having somebody at a higher level of mastery which is the orchestrator and master ?

If there is no need in the collective leadership team and the organization don't see the need for that , we're doing fine as it is , and you know that term , we've always done it that way Then again , why would there be an incentive for the leader to go and seek opportunities for personal development , for growth , if they are not going to be rewarded for it ?

And there is no quote unquote return on investment .

If somebody is already ticking the boxes and they're getting their bonuses and their teams are really performing and if the organization , as you said , they are happy where they are kicking goals , that's probably a good state to be in .

However , you and I now in a dynamic marketplace , staying in there can only take you to a place , but because of the dynamics of the market , you're always threatened and highly likely you'll go backward if you've got a new product , a new service or as a leader , you move organizations because by default sometimes you can move from being a high achiever start

somewhere else as a performer . Any thoughts on this ?

And that's when the leader starts to realize , oh , maybe I don't know how to actually do this . Realize , oh , maybe I don't know how to actually do this . I need more , not just more in terms of more on the toolkit and some few tools . The mindset needs to change . The way I influence needs to change .

The way I speak , the words , the language , the narrative needs to change . That's what starts to move them from the high performer to becoming an orchestrator . Because now , basically , you're going deeper , because you're trying to create a change that is going to be adopted , which is not fully in your control .

To enable people to see different , relate differently , feel differently about something is a skill in itself . Is a skill in itself . And in saying that , when change , when the success measures don't change in an organization , is this traditional of cascading a strategy from top to bottom ?

You've got a portfolio of projects , you're looking after this , make that happen for me , and then , as you know , we've had many redundancies , the job market is becoming more and more uncertain , and then they go , you know , look for another job . Either they've made redundant or contract ended , or basically they're just . You know they're not . They want to move .

Without having that level of mastery , you can't really stand out . You are compared on the basis of two things the package , the salary and past achievements . And if you're willing to go a little bit less and maybe reduce your responsibilities or do the same thing but in another organization , then that's that . And I also want to mention something that going for .

There's nothing wrong with being a high achiever or a high performer . We do need that for sure . There's nothing wrong . It's not a bad , good situation . However , we know that change is constant . We know that it's getting more and more complex . The landscape where we need to implement the change and transformation is getting more and more complex .

The pace of changed has accelerated . More and more things are coming into their technology or new ways of thinking , new ways of working . All of that it will draw some of the high performers to what is next for me , because they'll start to feel that they start to feel the ceiling .

This can't be just it , and that's not for everyone , because it requires you to put yourself out there . It requires you to be vulnerable . It requires you to be able to , or have that ability to , let go of old ways of thinking and replace them with new ways of thinking and bring that beginner's mindset for you to be able to observe something different .

It depends on you personal maturity , um the depth of your knowledge , um the the diversity of ways of thinking , um the diversity of how you see the multi-disciplines that goes under any change and transformation . So it depends on a lot of things . It definitely happens either at the master

or the orchestrator . It depends where you are in your career that this happens , but it surely will not happen below that .

We're already high achievers we are cooking , we are busy . That probably reminds me of the difference between a cook that does great , you know cooking meals and all of that . And then how do you move from being a cook to a chef or master chef ?

But also I want to ask you about something that , if we follow this analogy , a master chef but also I want to ask you about something that , if we follow this analogy , a master chef usually takes some risks in there . That's part of what they actually do to experiment with things .

Is that how you see it , also part of the recipe to move from the safe haven of high performance doing the same thing and you do it really well all the time to explore new territories ?

I just want to , you know , I've got my savings I'm just cooking , I'm just cooking exactly , and there's nothing wrong with that . And , by the way , those levels we do move through them . It's not a static thing .

You might be a master at one point and then you might move a little bit to a higher performer because you've got things going on in your life and you're in that mindset of I can't be bothered or I'm going to step down from that very busy , very complex role to something that's less , more of like a solo thing , because I've got other stuff going on in my

life . So that's fine . To move up , you do need to be open to risk . You got to create your own psychological safety . You need that support system around you because it will get the more you go . The deeper you go into that mastery level , the more it's going to get lonely Because you're now have that .

You're distinguishing yourself from the others and you're taking on something that maybe you have never done before or not exactly in this way Different people , different culture , different background , different baggage , different stereotyping , different uh background , different baggage , different stereotyping , different history in that organization . So you will definitely be .

You need to be open to that level of risk and create that ecosystem around you of that support system that allows you to reflect and also some community or like-minded , like-hearted people to be around you to cheer you up , to vent sometimes and to get back up to build that resilience as you go . So definitely that's an important part of moving up the ladder .

And when you go into a new position , it's unlikely you will hit the ground as a high performer because there's going to be some learning happening at the time . So sometimes you're going to go backward in the new role .

That causes a lot of problems for a lot of people , because you were an A player and all of a sudden you were a B player playing in different , on a knee , or a B player playing in different . And he did talk about being lonely and creating your own psychological safety around that that is actually . It is hard to actually tell ourselves .

This is part of the game , because if we are addicted to being a high performer and I've seen this , actually I've seen it on myself as well but once I started to recognize that by default , if I'm going to go to another position or another you know , working with a different client or even in a different industry I'm going to have to allow for that beginner's

mindset and I'm going to have to feel comfortable that sometimes I'm going to have to get my hands dirty to really understand before I think that I'm going to progress to the high performer .

It's to me doing this and I speak from my personal experience . It's very hard to let go of that because those things served you at one point in time to get to a certain level , but they don't serve you anymore . If that's the game you want to play , to go up .

Letting go of that is hard , but you need to replace it with something that is bigger than you .

And that's the common thread between moving from high performer to orchestrator and from orchestrator to master is that your attachment is to something that is bigger than you , and by having that attachment to something that is bigger than you , it allows you to make mistakes , something that is bigger than you . It allows you to make mistakes .

It allows you to put a different meaning to what does failure look like and what does success look like , and have compassion and empathy towards yourself as you're moving through that journey . What you're attached to makes huge difference . It's almost like a showstopper .

If that's what you care about , then probably that you're not ready for that journey ahead , because if you don't let go of that it's going to be quite hard and you might even get knocked down back to the high performer stage . If you're willing and that's a personal willing then this road is available to you , should you choose to be in that space .

I also notice , jess , that if you're in the space of the orchestrator or a master , wherever you are , chances are that when you move to a new position or new organization because of your experience , even if you go backward to a high performer or even a performer , chances are because of your experience , you can accelerate that process back into the high achiever

and , as you said , you can quickly build your support networks , quickly understand the industry , quickly understand the challenges that you're actually having . But that requires the highest level of self-awareness and where you are in terms of capability and a mindset .

It's about who you are and sometimes we do need to kind of take a step back in our careers I've mentioned , because of life happens . Your contract ended . You still need to pay the bills . You're accepting a smaller role . That's fine , but it's in you , it's within you .

You've always been an orchestrator , you've always been a master , and that would allow you to not just do your job and do it really well , but to also inspire others to do things differently , and opportunities will open either from within or somewhere else in the market .

So yeah , I just wanted to make that distinction that the role and the seniority of the role is not a one-to-one mapping relationship to the mastery levels .

There is very senior leaders who are at high achiever and , as you've mentioned before , they've been promoted because they are high performers and some who are solo players in the market or thought leaders who got to that place of being an orchestrator master , maybe out of a job now , may need to kind of take a smaller role .

They have not made it yet to that senior leadership position because they're still , you know , forging their path and choosing carefully where they need , where they want to be , in order for them to spread their wings and create the impact they want .

You make me think about that , as every one of these roles delivers value , but the level of value is different and actually probably the definition of value is different and actually probably the definition of value is different .

And then in my head I've got this image whilst you were talking is that when we are a performer , we're closer to ourselves and when we are in the mastery , we work through our people ? Yeah absolutely .

It's not about getting busier , filling up all the hours you're working 80 hours a week . It's not about that . Those measures don't apply . It's the impact you've made , how you make people feel around you . How did you shift the dial in regards to your mindset ?

Their mindset created a solid stepping stone into the future and you left this place better than when you joined it . That's just some of the measures of success , of going up the ladder .

I don't think we will ever get to a mastery because things always change and that's probably a good place to be , not to be in a mastery . Can you see the parallels in there ? Or actually , at a higher level , can I even apply this model that you've got in a journey , transformation journey to any role really ?

I think the definition and the shape of how I shaped that model was more about change and transformation roles , from a junior stage all the way to leading change and making change happen in an organization , or also as a consultant or as a thought leader . So it does apply to the roles for sure .

What meaning do they give to working with people , working via people , through people , understanding how they see that , working via people , through people , understanding how they see that , basically , their mindset , an indication of their mindset , gives that kind of clear indication of where they're at . Is it more about the doing ? Is it more about the being ?

Is it more about past achievements ? Is it about ticking the box ? Is it about just get it done ? Using certain words like change , adoption , getting people to feel good about what they're doing , those kind of things would indicate where they are in that journey . And I wanted to also maybe comment on one of the points you've mentioned about .

We will never get to mastery . This is true and not true at the same time , in the sense that this is more of a continuum and a journey it was . The whole purpose is to be on the path . That's the goal . Mastery is at one point in time . Mastery is a snapshot of where you are at the moment , something major can happen in your life .

Usually it's something a bit more dramatic , like someone's close to death , health issues and stuff like that which changes the way you see the world and your priorities in world and kind of moves you , without you knowing , to that realm of orchestrator master and then you start working on that , you make a decision , or maybe you don't have the capacity to do that

. So it's kind of the snapshot of the where and now . You can be a master in that space two years ago , but now maybe you've pivoted , you've changed your role or you moved from corporate've pivoted , you've changed your role , or you moved from corporate role to working and you've got your own business . You want to start your own practice .

You maybe need to drop down because again , as we mentioned earlier about that beginner's mindset , you're not a master at that now , because now your definition of value and success has changed . So you're dropping down a few levels in order to rebuild to the original level again .

Before we get into that , Jess , I'm assuming , following the analogy of the martial arts and I'm talking from personal experience , when I finished my yellow belt and brown belt sorry , and green belt and then brown belt , it gets harder and harder because you're going deeper and deeper . Is that your observation around this continuum ?

All of this comes together .

The first thing is critical thinking and being able to see the biases that we have around us and how much we're taking in , sometimes unconsciously , and being able to use critical thinking to create better and higher quality decisions . And in saying that this is not a two-day workshop although this is what I do on surface level , it is a two-day workshop .

Although this is what I do on like surface level , it is a two-day workshop and sometimes longer , but it does not shift the dial if the leaders are not willing to take that on board , are not willing to be vulnerable and make mistakes , and not just the individual leaders , but it's also about the dynamics and also about the culture .

Does the culture support something ? One of the things that get in the way of getting into that mastery level is the constant busyness and the bias for action and speed , and this might seem like counterproductive , like , of course , we're doing this to get there faster and better .

Yes , but at one point in time you will need to slow down and in some cases even pause completely , so that you can get there faster and better at a later point . So it's that willingness to hold on a second Critical thinking . What does that mean ? What does that mean for me ?

So , where I could have done better , what are the biases that I'm seeing , individually and collectively and as a team , are we willing to take it to that next level ? So the training and the workshops is one thing . The willingness and being coachable and open is another thing , and that is not something that you train people on .

You can only show them the different paths If you go down that path . These are the consequences , the potential pain points losses yes , you might still be achieving . You might be as an organization . You're still . You might still be achieving . You might be as an organization .

You're still making money , you're still making profit , but potentially this is what you're going to be up against . On the other hand , this is what the let's call that previous one is the red line , the future , the green line . This is what's going to look like .

What's going to look like if you do these things , you probably need to pause and stop and rethink and probably take some of the stuff that you already decided on , like don't go near those stuff , maybe unpack them a little bit , do things differently , but this is what the future is going to look like and there's always the path in the middle , the blue line .

Do nothing and just keep going and see what it looks like , see how are we going to react then , which brings the whole firefighting and being reactive and all of that . So training , doing it practically there is stuff to be done for sure , it practically there is stuff to be done for sure .

But without the shifting on the mindset and being willing and being open , none of that would work . And I always say to my clients in leadership and just being very open about this toxic leadership , not being open , not willing to change , not having the right empowerment , not having psychological safety , all of that .

Sometimes there is no training in the world that's going to make a difference . Sometimes you need to let go of some of your leadership team members . Sometimes you need to redefine what success looks like .

Sometimes you need to redefine what success looks like so that people can now see , oh , what I used to do worked back then last year , but now I need to shift gears and give people the opportunity to grow and then you'll know who is in a fixed mindset , on a growth mindset and , last but not least , is to give them the capacity .

It's not fair on leaders to have their exact BAU , spending 50 , 50 , I don't know 50 , 60 , 70 hours doing something , and then , on top of that , I also want you to grow and change and change your mindset and be open and be vulnerable . It's not fair , because you need time , you need capacity in order for these things to happen . So , critical thinking .

Back to your question . Critical thinking is the number one . Number two is understanding . How do we bring aside the people aspect at the thinking space , not at the doing space ?

A lot of the change frameworks transformation , project management , program management or the doing delivery side brings the human aspect of change in whatever way , whether listening to them , requirements , whatever that is in the delivery side , but not taking it to the thinking space of when we started thinking about this idea . Who are we doing it for ?

Who are our customers ? How do we want them to feel that thinking has not shifted from the doing space to the thinking space , which brings a whole lot of problems and a lot of baggage for people who want to do the right thing , but it's kind of too late because this has already been decided . What do you want me to do ? My hands are tied , yeah .

This has already been decided . What do you want me to do ? My hands are tied , yeah . And last but not least , is to create that level of sometimes we don't know in our teams who is in the fixed mindset , growth mindset in terms of taking it to the next level , until we have given them the right tools to actually do the work .

And I want to double click on what the right tools are To get it to the level where to get to , having tools that allows for higher quality conversations to happen , rather than ticking the box on the tools to create more coaching into the team , bringing that .

For me , coaching is the bridge between the outer world and the inner world , so training your change team members practice leads those who are doing transformation in coaching to bridge the gap and personalize the experience for your team members is key to shifting the dial to the next level .

The value add and the definition of value changes depends on where you sit in the continuum , but now you're making me also think about that . The way we make decisions , you also think about that . The way we make decisions also is different if you are a performer than the way you make decisions when you are in the mastery level ?

Uh , and decisions is just this if you imagine , like you're actually walking on the path with your own two legs , the movement of the legs is those micro decisions you make to get you there .

So , of course , the way we do well , we , we do that decision making process individually , and then , if we want to magnify that collectively , uh , we'll lead not just the individual leader , but the teams and the organization on that continuum as well , where they're heading .

So reflection and thinking are two different , difficult endeavors , but the rewards are high . So I think the message that I always hear you talk about is we're gonna have to spend a lot of time in that mode in order to actually get into to the , the creative cycle , the thought leadership , the , the orchestrator level , even to get to the high performer .

That is not an easy path from there . So I think every transition stage is difficult and has got its own challenges . I am aware of time and I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation . You made me think about a couple of things that I have crossed my mind before .

The usual question that I ask my guests about is that , knowing what you know and knowing how critical this piece is , what would be your sort of direction and advice and counsel for us in the change management space when we work with leaders and SMEs and managers ? Thinking about that continuum .

I see a lot of change leaders who may be not present enough in the meeting and the workshop on Zoom , whatever that might be , that key clues are being thrown into the conversation and they're not picking up on them and causes them dearly later because they have not designed the right emotional change that needs to be there in the environment to allow people to

shift from where they are to where they need to be . So listening is key . Second , invest in coaching and mentoring , and I would say that's even more important than certifications and technical training , because there come a point where you're collecting stuff but you're not connecting stuff . You don't have a final product .

You've got a lot of tools , separate tools , but it's not coming together as your thought leadership , as your thought leadership , as your recipe , as the thing that will take you to the next level . You don't have that finished product yet . Last but not least , I know a lot of us are very busy . They're spending at least 50 hours doing what we're doing .

But try to be intentional about at least giving yourself one hour of reflection time a week , just one hour , and ask yourself is there anything I could have done better ? Am I being kind to myself ? How am I making people around me feel , and is there anything I can do to make that ?

Remember , and in my opinion , change is an enduring force and you will only have a measure of certainty and control when you embrace it . Until next time , thank you for being part of the Inner Game of Change community . I am Ali Jammah and this is the Inner Game of Change podcast .