¶ Embracing Change Through Decision-Making
It's not necessarily for the best , but that doesn't mean it can't be an adventure and you use the Knights of the Round Table . I mean that's like a great . Their adventures were scary and they had to slay dragons and they had , they put themselves at risk and there was real danger there , but there was also real value and real excitement that happened .
And then I think the second piece you mentioned is the curiosity piece , and one thing I think we can guarantee that even if the change is not good by any measure , it's something that's bad , that's happening there is still , I promise , something to be learned from it , some morsel of wisdom that can be gained from it , something that can make you stronger from it
. And maybe it'll actually turn out better than you thought this particular change . But even if it doesn't , you're going to be able to carry that wisdom and that strength forward to other new challenges and opportunities that you wouldn't have had before .
Welcome to the In a Game of Change podcast , where I explore the intricate layers of organizational change alongside insightful professionals in the field . I am your host , ali Juma , and this is the Inner Game of Change podcast .
Today , I'm excited to have with me Nick Tasla , a global thought leader , organizational psychologist and the number one best-selling author of four counterintuitive books on the art and science of making decisions and leading change . Nick is renowned for his unique insights and dynamic style , benefiting top organizations like GE , microsoft and JP Morgan .
A sought-after speaker and consultant , nick is also an expert writer for the HPR . His work has been featured in the New York Times , the Atlantic and the Financial Times . In this episode , we dive into Nick's fascinating journey and explore his perspectives on decision-making and leading change .
We will touch on two of his influential books , domino and Ricochet , uncovering how their insights can help us navigate the complexities of organizational transformation and turn challenges into opportunities . Join me for an enlightening conversation with Nick Tasler and discover how to embrace change and make impactful decisions in your professional and personal life .
Well , nick , thank you so much for joining me in the NA Game of Change podcast . I'm eternally grateful for your time today .
Yeah , my pleasure . Alex , Glad to be here .
Thank you so much , Nick . Today we're going to touch on quite a few topics , predominantly based on your books , which I love , but before we get going , it would be fantastic to introduce yourself to my audience .
Yeah well , so my name is Nick Tassler and I'm an organizational psychologist by training and I , you know , at this point I write books and help companies deal with change and hopefully lead change , become agents of change in the most effective and impactful ways possible . That's sort of the short answer of it .
What is a typical work for an organizational psychologist .
Yeah , good question . So all right . So if you want the whole big long title , it's actually industrial slash , organizational psychologist , and I normally just shorten it because it's mouthful , but technically it's IO .
Industrial organizational psychology actually began near the in during the world wars and when , essentially , you had all these young , young teenage boys , mostly teenage boys , young men going off to war , and so you have thousands , in some cases tens of thousands , hundreds of thousands going off to war and the , the military , needed a some way and I and I believe
it actually was started in the us , but I could be wrong on that , but I think it was all kind of came from the same place . Maybe the same thing was happening in parallel in other countries , but anyway , the what happened is they needed a way to classify all these different people .
So you've got got tens of thousands of young men coming in from off the farms , in many cases , or off the streets of the city and whatever , and they need to be put to work in the military . Well , where do you put them ? So they needed a way to measure them and profile them and learn what skills they had and whatever .
And that was really kind of the birth of the profession of industrial organizational psychology is categorizing people , profiling people , and then so now fast forward , whatever , how many are we talking 80 years later ? Something like that and all these . The same field has now become used in the business sector , and it really started after World War II .
People that had been in the military , they've been fighting in wars and they decide , hey , this would actually be good for my business too If I can have somebody help determine oh , this person's good at selling , this person's good at fixing cars , et cetera , et cetera .
So it really became like personality profiling and skills assessment was kind of the birth of it , and still today a lot of what industrial organizational psychologists do is something along that line now . So it's a lot of what we call psychometrics , which is basically personal measurement , statistics , and so it's creating .
If you've ever taken a personality test or you've taken something like that , a lot of those are created by industrial organizational psychologists . So that's where I started and now I've kind of branched out . I don't do a lot with assessment creation anymore , but that's sort of what IO psychologists do .
And that's sort of what IO psychologists do . So basically , the idea of profiling and the assessments is to unearth the potential of maximizing the potential of people in the workplace , yeah , and in a more Machiavellian way , it's also to maximize the potential of the organization .
And so , you know , on the dark side , I guess is industrial organizational psychologists are also the ones that create performance review processes and things like that , and so it's really just measuring people , and , in some cases , you know , it's deciding these people are cutting the mustard and these people are , and they have more potential here .
And these people are cutting the mustard and these people are , and they have more potential here , and these people don't . And so that's the that's sort of the dark side of it . The bright side is , yes , we're unleashing potential . A lot of it , though , is figuring out fit .
Yeah , A lot of your books , Nick . The underlying statement underneath all of them is around managing change or leading change . Why is this particular topic ?
Yeah , good question . So I actually started out before there was change , as my specialty . Decision making was really the area that I kind of started out in my career , and what ended up happening , though , is the more I would I would talk about decisions , the more say clients would hire me to come talk about decision making .
Right , but the conversation would always start with Well , we're going through all this change , and we really think our people would respond better if they , if they could , you know , more quickly size up a situation and make better decisions in response . But it was like this presenting problem . We call it in the in the consulting world .
The presenting problem was we're having trouble dealing with change , and the solution was sort of decisions , but the problem that they were really trying to solve was change is messing with people's heads , and we need them to in order to really see their full potential .
We have to get their heads right when it comes to , yes , things aren't working out the way that they expected them to . Things are changing , and so that's really .
It was kind of it was me listening to my customers and my clients , but the more I kind of got into it , the more it sort of felt like this is actually where I belong , and the reason why is because , personally , change has really been the defining feature of my life .
So , you know , I'm now my my forty six actually forty five , so I forget how old I am my 45 trips around the sun I've moved almost I think I lost track , but I think it's been 33 times and so I've changed homes 33 times , and my parents moved a lot when I was a kid and so change has been .
It sounds a little cliche , but it's really been the constant in my life change and , fortunately , my family , and so I feel like I have a lot of personal experience here that maybe a lot of other people don't have .
Plus , you know , I have this professional interest and skill set around it , so it really does kind of feel like now , at this point in my career , that was sort of always my calling . It just took me a little while to get there it . So it really does kind of feel like now , at this point in my career , that was sort of always my calling .
It just took me a little while to get there .
First of all , I want to share with you something and you can critique it . I'm happy to be vulnerable on that . I always think so . So you said you started in the field of decision making . I always think that a leader's job . They come to work every day to help their people succeed . That's really the ultimate objective . They're not there to sign stuff .
What they do is not the objective . And how do they do that ? How do they help their people succeed ? It's by making decisions , and when they make decisions hopefully the right ones these decisions become changes , so by default , they actually change makers and they change managers . Am I close to really understanding that right ?
Yeah , yeah , I think you're absolutely spot on , ali . It's like I don't think it's an accident that decision making led into change for all the reasons that you said . So we don't need to worry about making decisions when everything stays the same , because then it's not a decision , it's a habit , right ?
And so the reason why decisions were relevant for you know , for these , these clients , and why they thought this is something we could use , is because of of change . And , as you said , it's it's on both sides of decisions .
So there's change that's happening which creates the need for decisions , and then those decisions in themselves , just as you mentioned , also create new changes , right , just as you mentioned , also create new changes , right . And so it really is change .
Decisions are kind of like the the connective tissue that's how we express our agency as human beings is the world changes and we make decisions in response so we can influence those changes as well as new changes , and so it really is the decision . Piece of it is kind of the . That's the proactive part of it .
This is the role we get to play in a change that's happening that's bigger than us , in this world around us , that we can't stop necessarily , and maybe we don't want to stop it right , but that's the role that we get to play as individual human beings is we get to make decisions .
So when it comes to change in the workplace , let's just say I'm an employee in the workplace Most of the time change happens to me .
I don't really make a big decision If we follow the same sort of way of thinking , which I really love because you've enriched my way of thinking now , which I really love because you've enriched my way of thinking now , just thinking about it .
So , as an employee , I also need to make decisions about the change that happens around me and some of these reactions , which are actually decisions anyway , some of us are good at making decisions around the change that happens around us . How good at making decisions around the change that happens around us ?
I should not really qualify them because they are good in the eyes of the decision maker . I'm always curious , nick . We've been talking about that . Change is the constant thing . There's a volatility , there's lots of things uncertain . Stop craving certainty , because that's wishful thinking , because things change all the time .
What is it about the human nature that we still struggle with change ?
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Yeah well , so there's two parts to that . One part is , I will say , is I think actually we don't struggle as much as we've are doomed to fail ? And it's actually not true , Like empirically , it isn't true . It's not . Nick Tassler is saying he doesn't believe it's true .
Like empirically the evidence shows , it's just not true . That is the 70% of the 70% .
Yeah , 70% of organizational change efforts fail . I mean , that statistic has been bandied about . It shows up in articles all the time . I mean literally
¶ (Cont.) Embracing Change Through Decision-Making
every year it shows up and people start because it's like oh , I want to grab my reader's attention , and so they say 70 percent of change initiatives fail . Let me show you the solution . And that's . That's sort of being a bit cynical , I don't think .
I like to believe anyway , that people are not just doing it in a self-serving way to try and sell their services , but certainly occasionally that's what we do . Right , so all right . So now , if we get into , okay . So why is that ? Why do we think that ? Well , part of the reason is it's , it's because so it's what we call saliency bias , right .
And so we think , like the things , that , for example , people are more afraid of shark attacks than they are car rides , even though we know you're much more likely to die in a car accident than you are to get attacked by a shark .
I think it's particularly relevant where you are , because if shark attacks are going to happen , there's a good chance they happen in Melbourne .
Australia and crocodiles and kangaroos , yeah crocodiles .
That's right , that's right . But even there , you know , it's like you're as prone to get struck by lightning as you are to get attacked by a shark . To get attacked by a shark , and so anyway .
But with this thing called saliency , bias is , the idea of swimming around in the water and getting bitten by this prehistoric monster is so frightening that we overestimate the likelihood of it happening . It's very salient in our minds , so it's emotionally charging .
And versus what happened in a car , we do that every day and it just it doesn't seem as scary , even though statistically , we should be a lot more scared , right ?
So I think , when you think about change , it's like initially , there's , there's all this uncertainty , so change in and of itself produces uncertainty , and uncertainty is , I mean , that's the boogeyman , it's the thing , it's the creature hiding under our bed or making noises in the closet that we can't see , and so it feels scary , it feels salient , and so we're
prone to think of all those times Immediately .
We conjure up all these times when when change caused a problem for us and we forget about the 10 other times when change worked out great and , you know , it led us to the love of our life , to our dream job , to this , that and the other thing , but we gloss over that and remember the one time that we lost this , this job , because of a change and it
ruined our year or whatever you know . So we focus on the negative implications of it and completely gloss over and overlook the positive implications . Yeah , so that's my belief of why we tend to overestimate how hard change is why we tend to overestimate how hard change is In an organization .
I always think that smart employees can see all the signs of a change coming their way , and so they see that in communication , they see that in the practices they have . Some of them understand the industry and what's happening outside the organization .
How would an employee develop almost like a skill set to anticipate change before even change is announced to them ? I mean , that is a skill by itself . It's such an important capability because then , and only then , you can . Perhaps , when you anticipate by default , we can build some resilience around it or we can be ready somehow
¶ Navigating Change Through Strategic Positioning
yeah , and I think so , being able to anticipate change .
I mean , I think the the best way to anticipate change is just to assume that change is always going to happen and rather than I think that's the most important piece of it is to not is to not get knocked off balance every time change happens , as though it's it's some shock , right , whoa , I didn't see that coming .
I think live in this state of just sort of always expecting that nothing is permanent , I mean , again , that can sort of that can sound a bit cynical and it can maybe , if you look at it from the wrong perspective , that can just make you live in this constant state of anxiety . But it's really more of .
You know , it's kind of like the biggest wins are never as great as we think they're going to , kind of like the biggest wins are never as great as we think they're going to be , and the biggest losses are never as painful as we think they're going to be , and so it's kind of like I think it's just it's having this more balanced view of , yeah , things are ,
things are good right now and this is good , and I'm and , and kind of like being prepared to just take advantage of the next opportunity to learn the next lesson , whatever that is , rather than trying to get out your crystal ball and figure out what change is going to happen next .
Now , obviously , you don't want to bury your head in the sand and and , like you , want to be looking to the horizon , but I think a lot of people get themselves tied up in knots trying to predict what's going to happen next , and I think that creates a lot of unnecessary anxiety and fear that they're living with .
And it's better , I think , psychologically and , I would argue , from a performance perspective as well to develop a sense that whatever change comes my way , I will learn from it and become stronger and wiser from it .
Whether it's a change that I wanted , a change that I didn't want , a change that presents itself in the beginning as negative or harmful , or one that presents itself in the beginning as positive in a windfall of good luck , in most cases there's there's more than there's , more than meets the eye .
In both of those , yeah , and so I think it's just being prepared for that you mentioned the word predicting .
I um from 2017 onwards . I really was tired of the predicting game until I met and then I met somebody that was in a sports field and then they taught me something around positioning , and the positioning is that I should not really be wasting a lot of my time predicting . I should be building capabilities and positioning myself for the opportunities .
So , and in that way , the predicting is , for example , somebody saying I want to be the ceo of the company at some stage .
For me , that's predicting and that's narrow target , yeah , whereas if I position myself and positioning meaning I got to have to build capabilities to be able to say I would like to be close to the decision-making process of leading this organization , whatever capacity that is , I think that's what will keep me open to opportunities more than another target , and I
never looked back because I am at peace now . It actually helps me also anticipate change , but also it cushions me against , you know , the sudden . Where did this come from ? Is that something that you encourage people ?
Yeah , that's a really interesting way , an interesting way to look at it . I like that , the positioning . It really it's a different outlook , isn't it ? And I think it's very . It makes a lot of sense . And so I kind of think about , you know , this is this is going back to some of the decision-making stuff of so what I like to call .
I think everyone needs a decision pulse , okay , and that was really kind of like my , my first grand idea and and a pulse from a business perspective or a career perspective is really kind of your strategic positioning . It's kind of like what do I bring to the table that makes me unique and valuable ?
Yes , and and and you really just kind of keep like that should be the guiding purpose behind what books I read , what classes I go to , what associations I want to belong to , what , et cetera , and and it's kind of like you know you could say , well , maybe that makes you too narrow , but I don't really think so .
It's sort of you , you kind of have this center , you have this anchor that you then build off of and you innovate around because ultimately , we can be well , we can be balanced and we can be well-rounded . But you know , we kind of are who we are Like .
I know there's certain skills and abilities that are kind of at the core that I have , that , yes , I want to develop my weaknesses and et cetera , but these are the things that are my superpowers , right , and if I give those up and , uh , you know , I just I'm , I'm headed down a road that I don't .
I don't want to go down , you know , and I and I like your idea of okay , instead of saying I want to be the CEO , no , I want to be near the decision-making center of gravity , or however however you put that . It makes sense , because then you can kind of go back to what , what is my , not just what is this outcome ?
This seems great , but who am I like , what , what is my identity and how do I make the most of that ? And maybe that's becoming the CEO , but maybe it's becoming something different that I'm even better at . That the company needs even more at that . I'll even be happier at .
Yes , yeah , and it really helps in a world where there's a lot of uncertainty . But I also do believe over this piece of work around King Arthur . So King Arthur asks his knights to go and look for the Holy Grail , and then they set up on you know the forest , and then they decided to go into that part of the forest that is the least known to them .
It always amazes me that and obviously the story continues that this is actually , that was the right decision . It always amazes me , and then I got to this principle that the unknown can be far more exciting than the known . And because it is scary , yes , I get it , but also it is full of potential and opportunities .
And I think the other thing that I , over the years that I sort of developed change happens to me when I go to the workplace and I work with my clients . I'm not a decision maker on how they lead the organization , but I've committed to the idea that I'm going to help them achieve whatever they want to achieve , similar to you in your field .
So I'm thinking the best way for me to have a sense of control over any change or any uncertainty is to embrace it . Running away from it is not going to help anybody , and how I embrace it . I'm not going to jump up and down because there's a fear factor , but at least I dial up my curiosity about the change .
Yeah .
Yeah , are these helpful tools ? Well , they worked for me anyway .
Yeah , no , no , I think that's great , you know , looking at it as an adventure and then , as you said , dialing up your curiosity . I love that because that really is the , that really is kind of the secret and and , and I think it's it's helpful to qualify . We're not talking about saying that , oh , this is , this automatically is happening for the best .
It might not be right . There's , there's some changes that are that are not objectively for the best . You know , as I , as I like to say , you know , know , just because you you sugarcoat a turd doesn't make it a donut , yeah , right , and so it still could be a change . It's not necessarily for the best , but that doesn't mean it can't be an adventure .
And you use the knights of the round table . I mean that's like a great . Their adventures were , were scary and they had to slay dragons and they had , uh , they put themselves at risk and there was , there was real danger there , but there was also real value and and real excitement that happened .
And then I think , on the second piece you mentioned , is is the curiosity piece , and one thing I think we can guarantee that even if , even if the change is , is is not good by any measure , right . It's something that's it's bad , that's happening . There is still .
There is still , I promise , something to be learned from it , some morsel of wisdom that can be gained from it , something that can make you stronger from it , and maybe it'll actually turn out better than you thought , this particular change . But even if it doesn't , you're going to be able to carry that wisdom and that strength forward to other .
You know new challenges and opportunities that you wouldn't have had before . So I think there's always that angle of yeah , maybe I can't control it , maybe I don't like it , but I can use it . Right , you don't have to like the change to be able to leverage the change , and I think that's the kind of the key lesson .
I would like to shift gear and ask you about your book Ricochet . Yeah , what was the underlying principle behind it and why did you write it ?
well , well , so two reasons why .
One reason was I had just written a couple of years before that , I'd written this other book , domino , and that was titled the Simplest Way to Inspire Change , and that was really for leaders who needed to make a change in their department , in their team , in their organization , and what things can they do to get the people on their team rallied around the
change . But then it , but it was really more for the leaders . And then one kind of theme that kept coming up was this is great , and do you have something for , like , what about the people that aren't leading the change , but they are a key element of making the change happen , right ?
So hence the subtitle of Ricochet what to do when change happens to you ? Because that's , quite honestly , that's how most people feel in an organization .
When the organization is going through change , they feel like it's happening to them , like their leader is making the change , but feel like it's happening to them Like their leader is making the change , but they're not the change makers . They're the one that it's happening to , like it or not .
So really , I thought you know this is , and this is , quite honestly , how most of us feel in life . So , even if you are
¶ Choosing Your Response to Change
the top dog leader in your business , in the rest of your life , change happens to you . It happens from the economy , it happens from the market , it happens from you know , from the government , from your city , from your spouse , from your kids . Right , change is happening to us and what are you going to do about it ?
And that's where that was really the impetus for Ricochet .
And I think you've already explained that change is driven in the workplace , let's just say , by the leaders . There are reactions to changes happening to them , whether that's from the board or from the market conditions , and all of that . So we all one way or another responding and reacting to change .
Well , some of us respond and some of us react , so there's a distinction between the two approaches . How do you deal personally , yourself , with change ?
Yeah , well , so I kind of lay out three points in Ricochet that I have used , that I use myself and , as I mentioned , you know , this is this is also like life imitating art in this way , because my life is constantly changing .
I'm actually I'm actually in the process of moving again and in another six weeks , and so so you can see , I've got like a like a temporary setup here because we're moving again and so anyway , but it really for me it kind of comes down to three things which are sort of the pillars of the book , and it's find freedom , pursue progress and make meaning .
And the first part of it is is find freedom , because that really is square one Cause . One of the things that I think trips us up when , when change happens to us , is that we feel we feel victimized , we feel stifled , in some cases imprisoned or enslaved by this change , as though the like the world is conspiring against us and we we feel imprisoned .
But so the first thing we can do is accept the fact that there are things happening that we can't change , but then also search for things that you do have some freedom within and that can vary .
There's a whole spectrum of of how much is how much do you have freedom over and how much do you not have freedom over , and it depends on the change , it depends on the environment , and in every situation it's different . But the one thing that is guaranteed is you do , you will always have freedom over some part of it , and it was .
I mentioned Viktor Frankl in the in the book and he was really kind of the guy that I don't know . Probably some of your listeners are familiar with him , but anyway , he was an Austrian physician that was actually in a World War Two concentration camp .
He was an Austrian Jew and most of his family died in in concentration camps and most of his family died in in concentration camps .
But afterwards and he wrote this book it's now , you know , a bazillion sold a bazillion copies Man's Search for Meaning and one of his key takeaways that was sort of his philosophy for his form of psychotherapy was this idea that there's there's always one freedom that can never be taken from you as a human being .
There's always one freedom that can never be taken from you as a human being the last of the human freedoms , even in a concentration camp , which thankfully , is by far the most unfree that most of us will ever experience is you can always choose your attitude . At the very least .
If you can't control anything else about your life , the one thing you can control , the one piece of freedom you always have , is you're always free to choose your attitude . And in kind of the corollary of that is you're always free to choose your response to change . So that really is kind of a foundational principle for me in dealing with change .
So we are never going to be free from change . We're never going to be free from fate , we're never going to be free from external factors influencing the events in our lives . But no matter what , even though we're never free from , we are always free to choose our response to it .
And I think that's square one , because everything else sort of hinges on you securing and claiming that freedom . And once you've done that , now we can start to talk about , get more tactical about what you actually do with that freedom .
And being tactical is a very proactive approach as well it requires actions and I think that's where most of us stop , Nick , is that when it becomes a reality , is that where do I start ? And if I'm going to start , that requires a lot of actions and energy from me . What are some of the hacks for us to take the first steps ?
Yeah , what are some of the hacks for us to take the first steps ?
Yeah , well , I think you know , one of the key things that that the research has shown is that , in a lot of cases , people who have dealt with difficult changes , you know and I'm talking like the death of a loved one or you know , kind of sort of more traumatic changes the people who continued , you know , who continued watering their plants , who continued doing
the dishes , and you know like they , essentially they did these really tiny things .
They continued cleaning their house , they continued making their bed , brushing their teeth every day , whatever those little things are , for various reasons , but one main reason is it sort of these are little ways to restore that sense of personal agency , even though the world there there was these , these huge , in some cases traumatic , tragic circumstances that they had
no control over , and one of the , as I just mentioned , one of the worst things about that is it makes us feel like we're slaves , we're prisoners of our environment .
And so the people that continue doing these tiny little things making their bed , doing the dishes , watering their plants those people ended up making their bed , doing the dishes , watering their plants .
Those people ended up dealing with the change much better , because you know getting through the grieving process or the depression much quicker than those who stopped doing that and , you know , say , only went to therapy and they kind of like gave in to their environment . And so I think one thing is to just like keep doing the little things right .
That's kind of like step one . That's where pursue progress sort of comes in .
I want to share with you some example , and I might be completely off mark , but one of the things that I've learned from running marathons is that he got through a lot of pain . But I did discover something by sheer coincidence I did ultra marathon in Morocco in 2018 , six marathons in six days in the Moroccan desert .
Day number five I need to go through the night because I was a slow runner and a walker and all of that and I was exhausted . But something happened to me when somebody from Hong Kong , a lady from Hong Kong , read my name from a distance and then she said to me can you walk with me , because I'm scared to walk through the night .
The night is a big change , so symbolic for a change . And , nick , the moment I shifted from my own pain to taking responsibility for somebody else , I had this amazing surge of energy that , all of a sudden , I can not only manage my own change , but I'm helping . Only manage my own change , but I'm helping somebody else manage their change .
And it reiterated itself when COVID hit and I was taught literally to make myself redundant within two weeks in a job . I anticipated that and I literally thought I would have made the decision . If I were you , I would have made the decision .
If I were you , I would have made the same decision Because why , would you carry some you can do a lot of when there's no work . Why would you need me ? But what helped me during that time ? There were people in my position , the same role . They panicked more than me . They panicked more than me .
So then I started working with them , helping them really understand that it may look like we are in trouble , but the market is going to need more people like us because they're going to make lots of changes and they need people like us to help with the changes .
And I know it was wrong with that , but that's sometimes the best way for me to help myself manage change is actually to go and help somebody else .
Yeah , no , that's absolutely right , and that's really what the third part make meaning is is all about yes , and that's so , and I think it's important that the first part is find freedom and the last part like to work through it .
You need to , you need to find meaning in the event , and which essentially leads people down this path of trying to figure out why did this happen ? Why is this happening to me ?
Me , and the problem with that is immediately it takes the agency off of me and it puts it out into the , you know the , the external environment , which is not always bad to focus on the external in the way that you're talking about .
So , but Viktor Frankl's main idea was not like , like , he never said , it was a great thing that I got sent to a concentration camp , right , that's not what he was saying when he was talking about finding meaning .
He was talking about what he learned from other prisoners that took it upon themselves , in this utterly hopeless , desperate situation , to take care of other prisoners .
Right , and in that way they made meaning in this otherwise desperate situation , knowing that they may , they may not , there might not be a silver lining in their case , right , like they , many of them , knew chances are I'm not , I will never get out of here , yeah , but I'm going to make this meaningful and they ended up having a more positive experience , like
they were lighter
¶ Finding Meaning in Difficult Situations
experience , like they were lighter , they were more joyful in the midst of all this , those who are taking care of of their you know , their , their , their comrades , right , and so I think you're absolutely right , and so I think of now , if we , if we say why is that the case ?
And part of it is what we now know is something called psychological distancing , and we can do that in a couple of different ways , but essentially , what psychological distancing is is when we focus on , you know , for example , we can focus on imagining ourself in time , and that's a specific kind of psychological in the future .
So , 10 years from now , how am I going to feel about this ?
Okay , that's called temporal distancing , and the kind you're talking about , caring for the people around you is this , is is social distancing , and I don't mean that in the the covid way , but it's like like , um , you know , paying attention to other people takes the emphasis off of us and we feel better , and so , and then , of course , the fact that you're ,
you can have this personal gratification of knowing , hey , I'm making their life a little better right now . That's just like , that's like an added bonus , right . So it works on two different levels . One , I'm focusing on their problems , not mine , and then , secondly , I'm getting this sense of meaning that I'm doing something good for the world .
So I'm taking this potentially meaningless situation and I'm creating meaning within it with my response .
Fantastic . I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation . We are coming close to the end of the podcast . I do have a couple of last couple of questions for you , please . The advent of AI coming into our lives nowadays that is a big change and I'm seeing a typical human reaction where some of us are curious , some of us this is not .
This line is not coming into my village and therefore I'm not going to worry about it . And then there are people that know about it but they actually don't care about it . It's just another fad or technology . What is your take and what's your ? Where do you stand on that ? Because I strongly believe that the AI technology will impact our lives going forward .
So , at the moment , my view on it and again , I have no particular expertise in artificial intelligence , so I'm just purely speculating here but I would say my belief is it's here to stay .
It's not a fad , it's not going away anytime soon , and so I think somehow we have to each of us as individuals , as leaders , as business owners , whoever we are we're going to have to make peace with it .
Now , maybe that means integrating it into different parts of our work , and I think that's going to be an ongoing experimental iterative process to know which parts does it actually make sense for us to , for me to use in my work , and which parts does it make sense for you to use in your work .
And then , of course , to be cognizant of , and where are my competitors going to use in your work . And then , of course , to be cognizant of and where are my competitors going to use it . And is that something I need to be aware of ? You know ?
So , even if we're not going to use it , are they going to use it in a way that you know gives them a more advantageous position ? And if we're not going to use it , what is going to be our response to it ? And I think that's just a reality for everyone in business for sure .
¶ Leveraging Change for Business Success
As individual people , I think we can probably take it or leave it , just like many people sort of . You know , in the late 90s and early 2000s , some people just decided they could take or leave the Internet . You know my grandmother for one right and eventually , had she had she still lived today , I think she would have not have a choice , right ?
She it's just kind of everywhere and I think AI is going to be , is going to be like that Eventually . It's just it's going to be everywhere . It's going to be ubiquitous , if it's not already , and we're all going to have to make peace with it somehow or another and look at because it certainly will have some advantages , just like the internet .
Has the internet been all advantage ? No , it's unleashed Pandora's box in some ways , but there has been . I mean , it's hard to overestimate how big of an impact the internet has on our daily life now , and I think AI is probably headed down that same path .
Well , I am going back to the idea of positioning . I'm actually reading and practicing a lot of AI technology and application because I think , again , that is an opportunity for me to build capability and then position myself for more opportunities . I think the future will be for people like myself with an AI capability . Yeah , but again , I might be wrong .
But I'm not going to be predicting . I am in the business of positioning , yeah predicting .
I am in the business business of positioning , so , um , yeah , well , and I think also you know you could , like we were talking about earlier , with with personal agency . Yes , you could . You essentially could be creating your own self-fulfilling prophecy right by educating yourself on it .
You could be making a position for yourself with it and in which case you , you look like you got it right because you created the opportunity , you positioned yourself in the right way .
You become more valuable for the market and for society as well . Yeah , fantastic . I am thoroughly enjoying this , A question I usually ask my guests what would be your advice , Nick , for people like myself and the business of change and communication in the corporate world when it comes to change ?
When it comes to change . Well , I think we've covered a lot of that , Boy . If I had to narrow down one piece of advice , that's a tough question .
Because we do help our organizations and our clients help them facilitate change yeah I really do believe square one .
Whether you are a leader , whether you're , whether you have a position uh , you know the title of a leader or even if you don't have the title of a leader , wherever you are , I think the one thing is to basically just understand that the sooner you accept and embrace change , the better off you and the people around you are going to be , accept and embrace a
change right . The sooner you're going to be able to make decisions that are going to position , you put yourself in a better position to leverage this change .
So , the longer we fight it and resist changes that we know are going to happen , and I just think it's better for you and better for all the people around you to understand that change this , that uh , uh , that you can leverage the change even if you don't like it , and that is true of every single change that will ever happen to you .
There's always an opportunity to leverage it , even if you don't like it I like that .
I like that nick . Uh , it's better for you and the people , better for the people around you .
It's always your family right , that includes your , your spouse , your kids , cause I think sometimes we , you know it , we we don't , we don't realize it .
When we do realize that , we feel guilty about you know the impact we're having on our family when we're bringing these work problems home and we , we don't like this change that's going on and you know it makes us a less effective human being in general . And so , yeah , that would be my advice .
That is a great place to end this podcast , nick . It's been a pleasure having you in my podcast , the Inner Game of Change . You've enriched my knowledge . You've made me think about a couple of things . Your tagline is change , grow and win , and certainly I am a winner today by having you in my podcast . So thank you for joining me , nick .
I hope to get you back in the future at some stage , but until then , stay well and stay safe .
Thank you , my friend . It's good talking with you .
Thank you so much . Thank you for listening . If you found this episode valuable , remember to subscribe to stay updated on upcoming episodes . Your support is truly appreciated and by sharing this podcast with your colleagues , friends and fellow change practitioners , you can help me reach even more individuals and professionals who can benefit from these discussions .
Remember change is an enduring force and collectively we have the capacity to navigate it more effectively . Stay motivated , keep expanding in knowledge and be the positive change contributor in your circles and work until next time . Thank you for being part of the inner
¶ Building a Change Community
game of change community . I am Ali Juma and this is the inner game of change podcast .
That's great .
It's a good for you Absolutely Good yes .