E63 - Mastering The Change Experience - Podcast with Andrew Butow

And I'm saying generative AI , you know , if you want to get into sort of like head chips and robotics , it's a different story . Yes , why get into sort of like head chips and robotics ? It's a different story . Yes , why ? Because one . What we've actually created is something that works very similar to our brains .

It requires priming , it requires prompting , but it's using language , it's not using code , it's not using um , something technical . And if I think about really seasoned change professionals , this is what we work on Communication instructions , language questions . I think if you know how to ask good questions , you're great and this is the power .

As the founder and CEO of Earth to Mars , andrew has dedicated his career to assisting organizations and individuals in understanding and navigating the complexities of change . With his expertise , andrew brings a unique , invaluable perspective on how to thrive in an ever-evolving business landscape .

In this episode , andrew and I have covered few topics , including the evolution of change management profession , the healthy discomfort we all need , the change experiences we would like to drive and many other topics , including the Gen AI capability . I have learned so much from Andrew here today . I hope you do too .

I'm grateful to have Andrew chatting with me today . Well , andrew , thank you so much for joining me in the Inner Game of Change podcast . I am thrilled to have you with me today .

I spent three years auditing , so going into companies , understanding their controls , understanding their processes and systems and particularly looking for fraud and for misstatement in financial statements .

And whilst I think that might trigger or freak out a lot of listeners , it really set me up as , I guess , a person who looks at change not just from the human side , not only from the engagement side , but also how that experience can also directly impact return on investments bottom line , top line and everything in between .

How I got into change was and I'm sure most people can relate to this they either fell into it or naturally got into it in some way . I was one of those people . I think my first introduction was realizing that , despite working in finance , being an auditor , there was just something culturally that didn't sit right for me about working within strict hierarchies .

So typical Andrew , as much as I enjoy the work , enjoy the challenge , enjoy the technology I was exposed to and the systems . I think I walked away from it learning the language of business , learning the way the value flows in business , but I didn't enjoy the culture .

And I think , when I speak to a lot of change managers , we seem to not like to just be stuck . We don't like to just be stuck , we don't like to just sit in the problem and stew for a long time .

And that's some of the best change managers I know seem to exhibit this characteristic that whilst we also go through our own change curves , we don't like to sit in change for too long . So I moved into a lot of I first got my basis in learning and development .

So first got my basis in learning and development , so really got a solid understanding of how we learn as adults , how we engage and get the best out of learning and what technology we need to use there . And then , from that basis , I moved more into digital transformation . So that was my entry point was learning .

I ended up working for huge energy companies , I've worked for non-for-profits , I've worked for banks and I've worked for construction .

So I've had quite a breadth of experience working across multiple industries and , yeah , I started a company six years ago called Earth to Mars , where I got to a point where I felt that there's so much that needs to be done in change and personally I really struggled doing that , either as an employee or as a contractor . I really struggled for two reasons .

Reason one I found it was quite difficult as an employee to maintain my independence , especially if the change was being done to me . And I think the second thing that I found was a lot of people , unfortunately in the recruitment space or even hiring managers , didn't really understand change , really understand change .

So I often found myself being sold into a program that had this big ask , only to find out that I was there to write some comms and help directors who weren't getting along .

So I set up Earth to Mars with the vision that I wanted to create a movement around not just the education on change and what it really and truly is and can do for your business , but really to humanize it , to really make the link there that there is a huge people element and if we harness the potential of people , we can achieve incredible returns as well

as well . So that was the basis for it . I was born out of frustration but then turned into something that really expanded my thinking and keeps me out of trouble . But it also keeps me learning consistently with myself and my team as things change in our space . So that's a little bit of background about me .

And I think also what you do now offers you the autonomy that you were craving for Absolutely .

Given the amount I mean , if I look at the average change manager , particularly in the Australian community , which is one of the communities I serve , is it's so expansive in terms of the amount of skill that goes into what we do . On the one hand , we have to understand business processes , how things work .

On the other hand , we have to understand people how they tick , both externally and internally , and we have to have a good grip on technology as well , internally and internally , and we have to have a good grip on technology as well .

So leaving that to , I suppose , just leaving that to allow itself to bake without playing an active role , just wasn't enough for me .

And yeah , I agree , some people can stay in that frustration because sometimes that's familiar and even though it's frustrating , it's awful , it hurts , it might be very comfortable and familiar , but for me that for me can be harnessed as a driving force and , I think , a lot of people

. We tend in change , to focus on the benefits and we tend to focus on all the stuff that is good without ignoring the stuff that's not good , that we can actually harness to push us .

Yes , there's pull forces in change , but my frustration was also a push force and I had to have a very honest conversation with myself that you know , how did I want to design the way I worked ?

How did I feel that I could make a contribution not just to myself , not just to my family , not just to the companies I work with , but beyond , and truly create a bit of a movement that looks at change in a different way .

I think , historically , change has been very limited to particular theories or particular models , and my experience has been very , very different . It's about expanding your knowledge in this space , but also integrating it very quickly into a way of work . So I found that frustration was really , really good because I was hitting my head against the wall .

I'd also moved countries about 11 years ago as well , so it was a huge learning curve and I just I used that as a force to push me and somehow I found that inner strength to give it a go and , worst case scenario , I could just turn around and walk back a little bit and reclaim my steps .

But it paid off and six years later I'm sitting here with a team at Earth , to Mars , doing fantastic things with fantastic clients . So very grateful for that .

And so when you leave your comfort into the unknown , the unknown could be far more exciting than the known . Like you , I was right the unknown was uncomfortable for a while until it became very rewarding . But I also want to go into . You covered quite a few things and I want to come to them . Hopefully I remember them one by one .

I suppose until now I try to put myself in a level of discomfort . You did mention talking going through your self-reflection conversations . I bet you , they're still there because I still do them , even in my own practice now , and those self-reflection conversations they are about am I driving the right value for ? My clients and for my people ?

Which takes me to my next question around is this how you see the art and the science and the practice of change management and how you would like it to be ? Is that self-reflection ? And questioning continuously that the value we need to bring to our clients is the value and not the doing ? The doing is important , but that's not the ultimate thing .

There's so much similarity to doing that and starting your own business or redesigning your life , so I love that . To your question . I mean , that's a very charged question around the art and science of change . I love the words you're using . It's the doing versus what I like to call the being , and I see this play out at clients .

I think when a lot of clients start embarking on change , I think a lot of them get very hung up on what do we need to do ? What do we need to do ? Uh , what comes do we need to do ? How do we say the cops ? What do we need to do with learning ? What do we need to do with our people ?

and sometimes it is as you say , slowing things down a little bit and having that time to reflect , because somehow we are in this culture that honors doing that honors having achieving certain things . And I think what really made the difference for me personally in my journey was one being very in touch and I had to work with someone to do this .

But getting really in touch with my values first , to understand and not just general values that often get touted in corporate settings , but really your personal ones . And I had to dig deep so realizing not just the misalignment but the alignment in who I was being and how I was operating , really , really supported .

But we've also got to help clients slow down to think about and ourselves to reflect who do we want to be ? Because maybe we've got the order wrong .

Instead of doing change , we've got to spend some time thinking about what's possible and reflecting on who we want to be first , because I find that focusing on firstly your values , which holds your why , but also your who you want to be , if , if we focus on that , I think the doing starts taking care of itself .

And I find clients and even practitioners getting so hung up on powerpoint colors , specific words that need to be used all the stuff that reflects the doing or the delivery or the artifact , as opposed to being focused on well , who do we want to be and how we might get that ? And I think that's really about the art of science and science of change .

I think , on the one hand , the doing people want to rush to because I think that's comfortable , or at least it alleviates some of the frustrations and anxieties around change . But that uncertainty that you spoke about , that discomfort , is actually a beautiful place to think differently .

It pushes us to innovate , and when I apply this to change management , this is where we bring in things like design thinking , human-centered design , co-creation into the space , because there's nothing better than having someone independent whether you're an individual working with a coach or you're a company that needs someone to come into their team a little bit more

independently to have a look at what's going on , to ask those probing questions , to call out those blind spots in order to do it . Who ask those broken questions ? To call out those blind spots in order to do it ?

So asking some of those really good questions allows us to take clients out of the doing for a moment out of that busyness and actually start to focus on the being . actually start to focus on what success looks like , actually start to focus on how we measure that and then designing the change and then designing the comp .

So that's partly the magic of that Does that make sense Absolutely .

If some change managers are listening to this now and they're thinking Ali and Andrew are just dreamers , because right now we get put in a project and we don't have a lot of move from that doing to the insight level , to the leading and to the influencing space .

But , based on my experience , the more the clients see a capability that is more than the doing , they will start paying attention . And , as you said , sometimes we focus on the doing because , whether we like it or not , there is a level of comfort in it that is predictable and within our control .

The insight level and the influencing there is a level of angst inside us that is uncomfortable , but then , as you mentioned , there is a reward for the discomfort which is around the creativity and the co-creation . So what are some of my theories ?

That we need to look at our capabilities , because that will be the only weapon that we can help , we can use to influence the clients , and I call it the , the divergence knowledge and the convergence knowledge . The convergence is that how deep you are into your own practice , and the divergence is that .

How much do you know about the other disciplines that impact change in the organization , and I think you do that . You mentioned the human-centered design . That is something that I've heard you over the years , talk a lot about , so go deeper into that . What is that to Andrew , and what would you like the audience to know ?

More than we need to focus on people ?

And a lot of them say the same thing . They call it imposter syndrome , and I'm going to start there because , yes , I think there are listeners going . Oh yeah , this is all dreamy . On the ground , I don't have a say . That's a very interesting belief . I don't have a say because I come from the school of we teach people how to treat us and I think

, in the end of the day , yes , we do need to respect . There is an evolution of change and business as we've gone through industrial age , as we've gone through the information age and now we're in this age of imagination where AI can just create things .

We've shifted a lot , but I've been in that situation as well , and one the first barrier I had to get through was an in the game . One is to actually challenge myself and and instead of thinking and accepting the status quo , if I'm going to expect my clients to not

accept the status quo and come on a journey of change with me . Why am I accepting the status quo of the typical narrative that I'm a change manager , I'm just called in at the end , I'm only training in comms .

I don't have a say , and maybe it's my consulting background maybe it's my South African background , I don't know , but I think I had to first not accept that status quo for myself . Step one , because that's a belief that can then reinforce an entire career for the rest of your life and keep me and us can change stuck .

Number two it was experience , I think , having the experience of doing change well , doing change right and getting it in a way that's engaging , that's collaborative , that's co-created .

I spend a , a lot of time and it's my accounting background as well actually measuring the results of things like co-creation , things like design thinking , things like using digital collaboration , and what's interesting is , a lot of those myths get broken very , very quickly .

So I have a deep appreciation for the value of what we do in change , not just from a capability point of view , but also from a results point of view and an end game .

And I think , in the end of the day , in a world where there's such a push to stay comfortable , to be psychologically safe , to do all these things , I think it's the leaders and the change managers or change leaders that , firstly , don't accept the status quo of what the industry is telling them , but secondly , rise up and find that certainty and uncertainty and ,

I think for me , leadership , all leadership , for me is self-leadership . So in the end of the day , our clients are going through their own change . But if we can find that certainty in ourselves , people are attracted .

Whether that's certainty in leading human centered design and co-creation , whether that's encouraging or using new technology to scale change and get ideas or get that reflective questioning , or whether it's using those good human skills , I think people gravitate towards certainty in times of uncertainty and I think you creating your podcast , for example , during the pandemic ,

is a form of leadership . You're creating a beacon of certainty and no , in a time of uncertainty . So capabilities , I think , is key . I was actually in a seminar last week and someone said everything is a skill , every single thing in life is a skill . Confidence is a skill , change is a skill .

So , let's go into those skills , then I think the skills have changed a lot . I think change has probably been held . It either didn't exist in industries that are very hierarchical . It then moved into this kind of specialist stage where you had to have a certificate and learn a bunch of theory .

But what I'm finding in this new age is the skill around human-centered design has been core to what we do at Earth , to Mars , and why it's been core is because our clients are able to see so much value in such a short space of time , leveraging their people in their language . Now I want to be very , very clear .

Some people might go and say , oh well , change has always been human-centric . I disagree . I don't think the change that I've seen in my career has been human-centric , because if we think , human-centric means sitting in a room talking about people and filling out spreadsheets about humans . That's just the doing of change . That's just filling out artifacts and forms .

What I mean by design thinking and human-centered design is bringing those humans into the discussion so that we can take in their context and understand that business context faster , better and leverage their minds in the process .

So what that looks like is the right , diverse people in the room , doing that stakeholder map with you , co-creating that narrative with you , and in doing so it has unlocked things that we didn't think it would unlock . One , it has certainly sped up the time to get alignment . One it has certainly sped up the time to get alignment .

Two , it's lowered resistance to a huge degree because people feel like they're an active part of this unknown , which alleviates a lot of the anxiety and the initial resistances . But three , it actually sped up time , and I think that there's this misconception that taking a consultative approach takes more time . I've done research on this .

I've done research on this , I've got data on this and it's actually the opposite . If we take a large-scale company writing something or delivering comms or putting together a stakeholder map or a change impact assessment , doing that in an echo chamber and then going around and getting it reviewed firstly takes more time because you keep getting it back .

Secondly , it actually breaks trust . I'm seeing this play out at one of our clients at the moment , where everything we do has to be put in a pack . Whilst we're using co-creation , that pack gets shut down very quickly and then people look at it and go , oh , that's not right .

I think this , as opposed to putting them in the room with you where they can express it and you can reflect that back to them . So that's been a very powerful way , particularly in the beginnings of change , to build that ability . But also positions you as a consultant .

It positions you as that person is more of the coach , more of the person asking you the questions , as opposed to I'm just here to put a PowerPoint together and send it to you .

You've mentioned quite a few things , but let me well , first of all , I love how you talked about the impact of working in your own echo chamber talked about the impact of working in your own eco chamber um , you may save time now , but you'll spend more time later in the cleanup , yes , um , and obviously , once you lose trust , uh , yeah and it will be up

an uphill , uphill battle for you to actually get back into it . But I want to talk about as a change manager and then I had this conversation with quite a few people before .

Sometimes I hear my colleagues and in different industries and different clients that I've worked with in the change management space they crave for a seat at the table , especially in early stages . So they say I want to be in the early stage of the thinking around the change so I can understand it . You mentioned the imposter syndrome .

I've seen it and I've seen it multiple times . The problem is that for me , if you seek a seat at the table meaning you are with the decision makers it's a responsibility that means you need to contribute . You're not just sitting in there and listening and then you're not going to use the information .

So that's really important when you get invited to the table , you will need to be able to contribute and then if you don't have that capability to contribute , then it will be a waste of space and time . And that's where we think . How many times you've seen it change managers do not attend the steering committee's meetings

and that is a problem because we are just giving a couple of updates about the people side of things and we're leaving that as a footnote . But I've also seen it , including myself , every project that I worked with over the last few years . I am the speaker on the changing comms at the steering committee , but that is a responsibility .

That means the insight you provide can have to be deep insight for the organization to make decisions on . So that's really , for me , that's important . The other thing is that you did mention the collaboration , the metaphor that I usually think about , which is a chef metaphor .

Sometimes we try to spend a lot of time in the kitchen , away from the client and the customer , and make the meal and add the ingredients and we think this is what they want , only to bring it out and they say , actually , I don't like this . Some of them may like it . Some of them say , yeah , take it or leave it .

What you're suggesting is that take the clients with you to the kitchen and show them the recipe , the ultimate aim , give them some of the ingredients and let's just work it out together . The idea is that if I contribute to the meal , highly likely that I will be satisfied with the outcome . Am I close to your point here ?

There's a menu , there's some options , there's some bots and a wait staff normally comes and asks them questions . Tell us what do you feel like , how are you going , and the best wait staff help the client make those decisions , and then they go into the kitchen .

As you said , that will save me a lot of headache and time , and also 100% , and then we strengthen the trust rather than depreciate it . So that is a wonderful way to enrich my metaphor and I'm going to use it .

Yes , so the way I see that paradigm as well is everyone wants a seat at the table , but I agree with you , I think it often needs to be earned and sometimes we don't ask why , why don't I have a seat at that table ? Why does change not there ? And 9 out of 10 times it's their perception of change and their perception of people .

Yes , so that's a maturity journey . The way I get into that is I change the table . So I realize that that seat at the table is probably a series of tables that I've got to show value . And it's less about me . I need a seat at the table . It's more about what are the tables to get there and how many tables do I have to wait to show the value ?

Maybe it's about building that strong relationship with the PM and showing value to the PM and helping that PM present at that steerco and then getting the invite . That's often how I get into steerco's . But we've also got to understand that if you are in a culture that doesn't see value in people , they probably won't hire change .

But if you're lucky and in that situation it's a bit of a push , so you've almost got to . There's the old adage give people what they want first and then give people what they need . And I've got to remind myself I find the more experienced we can change , the harder it becomes , because we see more of what good looks like .

We get used to a way of you know , once you get more successes out of your bulk , we've almost got to stop ourselves and remind ourselves that this is a new restaurant , this is a new client . So the skill there is , sometimes we do . So the skill there is , sometimes we do .

We have to give people what they want first , to earn the right at the table , to then give them what they need . And I find that's the strategy I approach every new client .

Whether the client for me , whether the client wants a five-star restaurant experience or meal or McDonald's meal , I focus on what change experience , what positive change experience I want to create , in whatever capacity . Yes , and that comes back to again , so I can .

If them in a mcdonald's and if you are my customer , how can I make that experience the best experience for that customer ? So what about ? So the idea is that the experience is always going to have to be positive , wherever you play , and that positivity from a change management perspective is the value we drive .

So a client the other day sent me an email saying you've enriched my team's knowledge . I mean that is a spectacular piece of feedback . That enrichment you don't really hear .

I mean I haven't really heard that word before used as a feedback for me , but that meant that I've influenced perhaps their way of thinking or perhaps their practices , and that is a win for me because later , when they're going to start thinking about we've got this big change or we need some advice . Who would they think of ?

They think of somebody that has actually enriched their experience , and that enrichment is about the insight you provide 100% . So that's wonderful .

I want to shift gear and I want to talk about the new capability , artificial intelligence . And then , where do you stand on that ? And also , well , I'm assuming you believe in the technology and I am deep into the rabbit hole of that particular technology . I see a lot of potential . What do you see , Andrew ?

But with all technology , I think one and just , there's some overarching rules that always seem to happen . We tend to overestimate the potential of technology in the beginning , but what we always do as humans is we underestimate its impact on society in years . Like think about social media , think about the Internet , and you know , 10 years

later , of social media , 20 years later , I mean , everything's there . I can't imagine even running a business without LinkedIn or social media . Imagine trying to run a podcast without social media . Where I stand with AI , I think one we need to realize AI is a very broad topic .

So I think a lot of people talk about AI or get confused , and I've seen some really highup leaders get so confused about this . But I think I want to highlight the generative AI side .

Yes , because I think this is the one at the moment that is able to send stuff , look at data , research , analyze but it's also able to create videos , powerpoints , content , but it's also able to create videos , powerpoints , content . We approached it like we approach any change with curiosity , but with experimentation as well .

So we got deep into it as a team and we immediately saw the potential , and I think the potential here is to take away a lot of the drudge work in change , particularly around documentation , particularly around trying to make sense of a lot of information .

So when I work on change projects or when I train people up on change , we use design thinking and we use technology to get a whole bunch of insights .

And there's a lot and can be really overwhelming , and what we've found very , very quickly is generative AI can make sense of that very , very quickly for us , or at least give us a starting point to do that . So , on the one hand , I think there's massive potential , not just for our clients , but also for change .

I'm also seeing I don't think we're having the conversations yet Like we still in social media , haven't had the hard conversations about what society's rules are about , and social media has changed society . It's the same with AI .

I think it's a really great thing that we're all being exposed to downward AI , as opposed to just a few companies having access to those . I think there's a lot of conversations to be had yet because obviously , one , there's the data concerns , there's security , but two , this will certainly impact our behavior and how we work on projects and within teams .

I'll give you an example Recently I was on a client and they've launched they're one of the 50 companies that has fully launched Copilot , and they've also launched an AI model that sits across all your internal documentation . What does that mean ? What if I'm working on a change project and normally on a team , I would share that on OneNote .

I would be able to just , you know , give you a , and that would actually speed up how we collaborate on projects . Now , if AI is going to go on top of that , I've got to be extra sure of who I share that document and also there's almost like a reluctance to then share those documents .

So I think , as much as there's impacts that are going to help us and drive us forwards , there's also the potential that it will change the way we actually work and there might even be some reticence .

I think my biggest concern about generative AI is I just hope it doesn't put us further into echo chambers , because it's very tempting to work with AI , to come up with a solution very quickly and then move ahead with it , and I worry that for some people it might keep us behind the laptop or keep us behind the screen longer , as opposed to getting out there

collaborating with your teams providing that positive energy you mentioned earlier . So , on that front , I think there's a lot of things we need to talk about . I mean , yes , there's the fear around jobs . I do firmly believe that if you're not playing with AI , if you're not experimenting , you are going to be left behind .

It's not a case of whether you're Stanford or against it , it's happening . The genie is out the bottle . Every tool is in there . We are in a bit of a hype phase from an investment point of view , but what we are finding is it's phenomenal . And when we one , my advice is always be transparent with your client . So tell them hey , would it be okay ?

I'm going to take all these insights from this workshop and would it be okay if I use AI to do it ? And I find clients actually like it . They're like oh , what did the AI say ?

And two , what I'm finding is when you combine generative AI with using digital collaborative technology and a good design thinking mindset , the world's your oyster , because you can use design thinking and technology to almost like a net to get all the ideas of people around the change , all the

impacts , all the narratives , all the risks around the change , all the actions we need to take and then using that data and using generative ai to actually stitch it together for us so that we have a much more contextualized view of that change .

And that's the opportunity I see is , if we marry the skill of design thinking and collaborative tech and having strong that muscle and use generative AI to sense , make , synthesize , do all of that , amazing things start happening and you get to those insights a lot quicker , you can share those insights a lot quicker , and I'm finding that really , really exciting .

So we've done a lot of labs . We've done a lot quicker and I'm finding that really really exciting . So we've done a lot of labs . We've done a lot of workshops getting people started with generative ai and large language models and once they see the case studies , once they see the things it , they naturally gravitate towards it .

Yeah , so it's , it's a matter of making it . I think in the investment world , you just have to slap ai on it right now to get funding . But when it comes to the work that we do , we don't , we shouldn't be doing that .

We should be thinking about real case studies , even if it's a small one or a simple one , where we can start applying it , and some of the schools that we work with are quite forward thinking .

I mean , I was walking around one of the schools , uh , in inner West Sydney , and they had signs even for the children and even in the staff room saying is there an AI tool that can help with this ? And I thought what a great thing to bring into your change project is . Just ask that question Might there be an AI tool that can help me with this problem ?

And just starting to slowly integrate into that allows us to do that . So that's the excitement I have around generative AI . But we don't know . We truly don't know where we will land with this in 10 years , but there's a lot of hype about it at the moment .

So embrace it , I think , play with it , get into it , get dirty with it and do it in a way that's safe . I make sure that our team doesn't put anything that can identify you , your clients . More importantly , there are some standard privacy things we need to be careful of , but a lot of .

I just think that a lot of our role in change is we have to lead the way here . Yes , yeah , because if we don't , in ourself , have an inner game around our reticence to use technology , how are we going to expect our clients ? to embrace it .

And what's beautiful is embrace your resistance to it , because if you're resisting using the technology , if you you're a bit fearful , can you imagine your stakeholders one day on a program that are going through the same thing ?

So I think it's a really good opportunity to if you haven't already jumped into it is study your own resistance , because you can use that as a good empathy hook for clients going through this kind of change . But secondly , everything you do to overcome your fear is probably a strategy that you can apply in a change program that might involve generative AI .

I actually was thinking that AI will give me more time to spend with my clients because it's going to help . It's going to this is if you use it , if you use it effectively , if you use it effectively . So that's one . That's how I would like to see the shift , because now I don't need to spend a lot of time into PowerPoints and all of that .

I can critique the information , but I focus on the insight I need to bring to my clients . So we need to be insight-obsessed going forward . So that's one . That's one . That's one . The other thing is that , andrew , I , over the last few months I've been studying closely how open source AI are launching the change to the world .

So they are following a smart change adoption strategy . They've given us the tool last year , late last year , free of charge , and say go and play with it , which is chat , gpt-3 and 3.5 . So I'm keeping close eye on how they are enabling the world to adopt this new technology without a lot of angst and the same . I'm working again .

I'm fortunate enough to be working closely now with Microsoft on CoPilot , and then Microsoft , I've seen their program to help organizations adopt the change . It's an amazing change management strategy and adoption that they have , so I'm learning from that .

These big vendors are coming to the world with the change , but they would like us to adopt it without a lot of resistance . So they're using the communication and their conferences on a regular basis , but not only that . They're creating the mechanism to make it so easy for you to adopt it .

So we're going to have to learn from the big players when it comes to those things . So I'm loving that . I think you are right . I think the future for us is that organizations will seek change management professionals with a deep AI capability , because that's the place we need to play at and also that's the place clients in the future .

Well , actually , probably now they will expect . Gone are the days when they allocate one change manager for each project . They expect a change manager now to be able to handle few projects at the same time with this capability next to them , and so that's going to be less opportunities .

Employers will definitely go to those professionals with the AI capability , because that will be the knowledge that will be helping us in the future . And , to be honest , this is once in a lifetime In my time , when the internet was there . It started to come up . I ignored it and I thought what is this thing ? And then I would .

I wasn't worried about it until later . You know , the bus left and then I was , you know , catching up . Now I'm thinking a man in my fifties . There is no way I'm letting go of this technology because that's once in a lifetime .

Uh know , innovation that will change the world or is actually already changing it , and I want to tackle it and especially , talking about generative AI , that's where we are .

Basically it's human centered , but I think is it really about deep AI experience for change or what if and this is what I'm seeing from where I'm standing , having trained a lot of change managers , having taken a lot of change practitioners through generative AI and getting them in , so it is we actually are really well positioned to work with generative AI .

And I'm saying generative AI , you know , if you want to get into sort of like head chips and robotics , it's a different story . Yes , why ? Because one . What we've actually created is something that works very similar to our brains . It requires priming , it requires prompting , but it's using language , it's not using code , it's not using something technical .

And if I think about really seasoned change professionals , this is what we work on Communication instructions , language questions .

I think if you know how to ask good questions , you're great , and this is the power of and why I think change is perfectly positioned for us is because a lot of us have coaching backgrounds , so we know how to coach the right answers out of people or their own answers .

I think , too , we're really used to running workshops , so we know the end result and the questions to get there or the process to get there , and we're really good at context . So if language is our game , this is your entry point into AI .

So on the one hand , we can look at it with fear , but I want to tell listeners out there who might be a little bit fearful that if you're in the change space , you are probably a lot more further ahead than a lot of technical people who want you to learn prompts off by heart .

Yes , prompts are interesting , but when you talk to it like as if it's a human and you coach it with the right questions and you prime it with the right insights and context just like we do in change when we deal with stakeholders or educate them or communicate or run workshops we get the best results , and we've seen this time and time again .

So I want to say maybe it's about letting go of the deep expertise . Yes , go learn . Yes , be curious , but realize you already have one of the core skills , which is language using language to get an output . So it's good news for change . I think we're in a good position to leverage AI given our language skills .

I always find your enthusiasm infectious , thank you , and I would like to really acknowledge the huge contribution you're making to the change community , and so well done to you and to your team . Continue and keep up the great work . How would people reach out to you and to your services , andrew ?

And by sharing this podcast with your colleagues , friends and fellow change practitioners , sharing this podcast with your colleagues , friends and fellow change practitioners , it can help me reach even more individuals and professionals who can benefit from these discussions .

Remember , and in my opinion , change is an enduring force and you will only have a measure of certainty and control when you embrace it . Until next time , thank you for being part of the Inner Game of Change community . I am Ali Juma , and this of the Inner Game of Change community . I am Ali Jammah , and this is the Inner Game of Change podcast .