E58 - Change Leadership Through Continuous Learning - Podcast with Katie Anderson

It's not just making things , you know , machine-based or automatic or AI , whatever it is , but it's how do we integrate those two for the best efficiency .

Joining me today is Katie Anderson , an award-winning author and internationally recognized leadership consultant , speaker and , above all , a passionate learning enthusiast . Katie's work has been pivotal in empowering organizations to foster a culture of learning and accelerate the impact in the ever-evolving landscape of organizational change .

A firm believer in the power of continuous learning as a catalyst for extraordinary outcomes , katie shares her insight on how our attitude towards learning , based on her book Learning to Lead , leading to Learn , I am grateful to have Katie chatting with me today . Well , katie , thank you so much for joining me in the Inner Game of Change podcast .

I am eternally grateful for your time .

I came from working in healthcare policy , which actually led me to Australia for four years as a Fulbright scholar where I got my master's degree , but then , when I moved back to the United States in my early 30s , I got a role in a hospital working on continuous improvement , and that's where things really shifted for me and my aha moment of my passion is

really helping people have those aha moments to step into greater and more impactful leadership so that they can make the impact they want in their organizations and in their lives .

And then , if we really want to create impact in organizations , the world , we really need to be leading with a learning mindset and to help others learn how to learn , how to learn , how to learn how to lead and learn and be more effective for themselves too , and so I really think this , I see this as like a strong connection it is .

We can't just have a learning mindset for ourselves . We need to also help foster that and other people in our organizations . And so if we can lead with a mindset of learning , we can help others learn to lead too , and that really then helps perpetuate greater impact .

We first have to have that awareness , in that sort of mental state of being , of how we want to show up in the world and actually call this like our intentions . Then we also have to manifest it through our actions .

So it's both like how do we create that perspective for ourselves about who we want to be and how we want to show up and how we engage with the world , and then we also have to do to do

it .

And then other things are we need to discover and by doing and failing and learning our way forward , or we're through the challenges and the struggle that that happens in life , and then how do we pass on that , those experiences to others to give them a space for that learning ? By doing as well , because you can only be told so much .

Right , there's knowledge that we gain , but it's really our experience that creates that , that wisdom and that real , genuine , deeper sense of knowledge .

So back in 2015 , I had the opportunity for my husband's job , for our family , to move to Japan and , as I've already mentioned , I'm a bit of an international person , having lived in now seven countries around the world , and so I was really I was incredibly excited by this chance to go immerse myself of living in Japan , studying the Japanese language , of course

, as a lifelong learner that was something I did too and also as someone who was working in the space of continuous improvement and lean management , which had been inspired by the Toyota production system .

I was really intrigued about what I could learn about going to Japan , about the Toyota way , from being there in the source , and then also to share my learnings with others , so I started writing a blog . Back at that time .

I also met through Serendipity , mr Yoshino Esau Yoshino at a conference right before I moved to Japan , and he gave me his card and he said he's a 40 year Toyota leader who had spent his entire career at Toyota , from the late 1960s to the early 2000s at Toyota , including 14 years in the United States . So he speaks English fluently .

And he said you know , look me up , I'll take you to Toyota and we'll spend the day together and I thought , wow , this is gonna be an incredible , you know , once in a lifetime opportunity .

And I made my husband take the day off of work a few months after we moved there , and you know , we took the Shinkansen down and Mr Yoshino picked us up in a Toyota , of course and we drove to Toyota city and we had this incredible day and then he invited me to keep coming back .

And so , you know , here we are different generations , different genders , from different countries , but what our uniting factor also was around learning and leadership in this sort of international self , and we just had brilliant conversations of asking questions and learning , and he said I could write about what I was learning from him and from our conversations on my

blog , and that became sort of the beginning of what later was sparked , an idea of let's collaborate on a bigger project together .

There's no secret and , as you know from having read the book , the opening quote , the opening line that I use , is the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning . And then he went on to say one time to me well , we don't even notice and we take it for granted .

And I think this really hits the nail on the head about why so many researchers were focused on the production principle side of Toyota , like the visible artifacts , the tools , the process . All of that's really exciting and amazing . But the secret sauce is Toyota's attitude towards learning .

They've cultivated through the culture , and it's really hard to articulate that when you you know what is a learning culture , and it is how people show up .

And so what I was trying to do in the book was demonstrate through his , mr Yoshino's , personal experience but it was happening across the , you know , across the organization about how individuals interacted with each other to create this sort of learning culture and then also how there was intentionality from the executive leadership about how they wanted , what the type

of culture they wanted to foster and what it meant to be a leader at Toyota , so that they were having more of this learning mindset across the organization .

But going to your question about you know the generations , I always think about this in terms of principles rather than how , the behaviors that manifest those principles .

So I think in you know , I ask these , I ask questions across the world probably over 10,000 , like leaders at all different levels , of different generations , about drawing your purpose and what's important to you .

And the common theme that comes up all the time is connection , helping people learn , making things better , having a positive impact , community people , you know , and so these are some common elements that really unite us as human beings .

How that shows up for each of us and what that means might vary by country , might vary by generation as well , but I do think there's this inherent desire to make a positive impact , to connect with others , to learn , to grow , to improve , and so I think we can go back to that as the principle and then say well , what does that mean to you and how does

this show up to you , what are the challenges , what are the things that help enable that ? Then we're able to actually sort of take away some of that those constructs about , and learn different generations maybe what that means to be learning or how to show up and provide the support . It's different , but the principle remains the same .

And I've been thinking a lot about this and my take on it is that when , before the internet , the standards were not really that high that we expect from people , after the internet standards were raised .

This is a second sort of wave after the internet , which is the AI , and I think , instead of worrying about the aspect of cheating , I think how about we focus on raising the standards of learning now , these far more available tools for us to actually help us ? How do you see technology now will help with the learning process ?

I have a nine-year-old and he was doing a research assignment and I was thinking back to me that it's seven , a lot many years ago , 40-plus years ago , or nine years old , sorry , and I would have had to go to my local library and check out an encyclopedia and look through and all of that .

Well , he could just get on Google and get the encyclopedia or the information and he still had to do the process of synthesizing it , but the information was more easily available . Now , same with AI . Like AI is helping us . But so how do we have ? What does it mean to learn ? What's the human element of that we bring to the table ?

And so that challenges us from our paradigm of what is the uniqueness , of how we need to be , what we can bring as human beings to it . How do we leverage as you and I were talking before we started recording , how do we leverage AI to help shorten the time of the work ?

That maybe is not as value-add for us as the human being to be doing , and so that just is going to challenge our paradigm of what it means to learn , to write , to create , and what's the special uniqueness that we as human beings bring in . What can technology help facilitate , provide efficiency and enable ?

So it's like my coach , and literally I use it for my even golf as a golf coach as well . But what it does , katie , I'm expecting it later to give me to shorten my research time so I can focus on the learning and I can focus on enjoying life better as well , instead of wasting a lot of time doing the stuff that you called non-value-add activities .

I think this is where we're going with technology If you use it properly , and whether you're going to push it , resist it now or not , it is happening , and so you have to look for the opportunity in any change that comes your way .

It's not just making things , you know , machine-based or automatic or AI , whatever it is , but it's how do we integrate those two for the best efficiency .

. I have taken a note of that . I want to shift gear and I want to talk about the learning process itself is not an easy task , is it ?

And so it's getting okay with that struggle and the clumsiness and the awkwardness or the not having the answer right away , and so I think it's harder for some people and it's easier for others because of that sense of how okay we are with that struggle .

One of the things that I always find fascinating is everything , every new thing that I want to try and I want to learn and I'm a nerd , I would like to try learn things all the way , so it's not just tipping my toes into the water . If I want to learn swimming , it better be a good swimmer , so I take it all the way .

And so one of the things that I find fascinating is that sometimes we think that time is not on our side when it comes to learning new things . And we can start anybody can start but I always think that finishing is the hard bit , and especially when it comes to learning . How do you learn yourself ?

Because we all find our own strategies , personal strategies , to continue that suffering journey until we get to what we want . Because part of it is suffering . I run marathons and every marathon I run . It's a learning experience and it is suffering , but then there is clarity at the end and I look forward to that moment . How do you learn personally yourself ?

I mentioned , you know , when I moved to Japan I was like , well , of course I'm going to study Japanese . You know , I surprised a lot of people because you could just live in an expat bubble and , you know , not really learn how to do something . But I love the challenge of learning . I'm always seeking new knowledge connections .

For me , learning manifests by traveling , by seeing new places , by connecting with new people , having conversations . That's why I love going on podcasts and meeting new people like yourself . And the learning is also being willing to try something new . You know , like I just started my podcast Chain of Learning and I'm , you know , learning some of the back end .

You know I'm comfortable having conversations with people , but you know there's a learning process about the process of putting together and putting out your podcast and I just dive into those things and you have to know that it's not going to be perfect right away , but for those things that are really important .

How do you have that goal for yourself and continue forward ?

I don't know if I think maybe it's a hard question for me to answer because it is so inherent to me and sort of my DNA , in that same way that you know the only secret to Toyota's attitude towards learning is just sort of how I show up in this world and I can't imagine not seeking out new knowledge , new experiences and new connections .

You will be out there , like I shared my podcast story with you before you know , when I put a podcast out there , I am there you know , and I am naked in my thoughts and I'm sharing them , and then I've got millions of people that can listen to this and then they can criticize the hell out of me . I am having a go and I know it's not comfortable .

And the learning happens when we take those moments out to say okay , what did we expect to happen ? How did it actually happen ? You know , what do we need to do differently ? There , you know , you speak to professional athletes who really achieved a lot in their you know , their sports life . They , they do reviews of their plays .

You know , day after day , they , they go back and they learn . They will say what are they going to do differently ?

It's the same thing with us as , no matter what we're doing , and I think one of the challenges in the business world in particular is that we get caught in this firefighting culture of busyness I don't have time to slow down and so we just are just continuing to move forward and not learning .

And this is the real risk for organizations of , you know , failing to actually truly be learning , organizations that they're just doing organizations but they're not actually getting better at getting better .

It's quite fascinating that when you talked about the doing culture , there were a group of people that really wanted me to help them with quite a few things , and so I I planned a schedule for three months and it was an easy . It was a 45 minute every every two weeks , every fortnight . This rate is 20% and the excuse is that we are busy .

But I'm thinking , but you need that . This is like a sports person when I win , you know a game , but then they don't go to training . So I don't , you know , and I think that is a leadership problem . Although it is a mutual responsibility , I strongly believe in individual responsibility , but it is a leadership problem . Back to Toyota .

How do you see the leaders encouraging that learning process , or actually seeing when it's not happening and nudging it into a direction ?

So not me directly going in and having that experience as well , but from some anecdotes about what Mr Yoshino's experience is , and I hear this corroborated by other you know Toyota people who have been there for you know , more recently than Mr Yoshino's retirement .

But it's about being very clear that , on the learning process , you know there's some stories in my book that really exemplify this as well . One is being okay with mistakes , so encouraging people to bring mistakes forward and then saying it's okay to make a mistake , this is a learning opportunity . Okay , what are we going to learn from it ?

Even thanking people for making mistakes .

I mean , one of the first stories I share in this book is about , you know , mr Yoshino and his orientation made a huge mistake in 100 cars were going to have to be repainted and his bosses not only didn't yell at him or didn't blame at him , they said thank you for making this mistake , because this shows we have an opportunity to improve the workspace , to

set you up for , you know , for success , and that's our responsibility . Other times , you know , mr Yoshino , for example , was asked in his you know , maybe 10 years into his career at Toyota , to write a report .

And he knew that going writing report was about going to actually speak to people , don't just , you know , learn by from the library or from a book . But he felt like he didn't have enough time to do that .

And so , you know , when he was representing his report to the senior executive , the senior executive said what was the process you took to get this information ?

He said , oh , I'm so sorry , I didn't have very much time , so I just went to the library and looked at some books and the senior leader said yeah , no , that's not , that's not the way we do things here . You can have another week and you can go do this properly .

And he didn't mean that as a shameful way , but he said that's not how we learn and how we put together information . So reinforcing the sort of proper way of learning from Toyotas called going to Gemba , going to see , going to the place the work actually happens , not just relying on books and information and reports .

So those are just two examples of how that happens , you know , but there's so many . I mean that's basically my higher book is stories about how leaders are fostering a learning culture at all different levels and through generations and decades in different situations , in both Japan and the US as well .

Is wisdom , you know , is wisdom born out of the continuous learning journey that we go through ?

There maybe is a level of expertise , but there's also something about generational how are we passing on that knowledge and helping other people learn more deeply ? So it's not just information that sits sort of on the surface , but it becomes deeply embedded as the way things are or how we're moving forward . And you know this word wisdom .

I want to tell you one more story about something I learned from the , some things

that I consider lost in translation , and this is not all about Toyota , but I want to be clear that it's not like I believe Toyota is the only learning culture and other things . But I learned some really interesting things when I was both living in Japan and then coming back , and then coming back and doing research for my book .

And Toyota has two pillars for how they define their culture the Toyota way culture , and one is a pillar called continuous improvement , and this is how they translated it for their internal document called the Toyota way 2001 . Yes , so they have two pillars continuous improvement , as they translate it to English , and respect for people .

And both were sort of translated in a way that I feel like has really lost some deeper , deeper meaning . And the pillar for continuous improvement

is not just made of the word Kaizen , which into itself is usually translated just as continuous improvement , but there are two words , and this is actually in the very end of my book . There are two words in the Japanese pillar it's wisdom and continuous improvement . And so to me that's so much richer than just continuous improvement .

Wisdom to me is that collection of knowledge and continually improving and learning and passing that on and connecting together . So it's not just one individual , but it's really . How do we , how do we create the ? I feel like it's like gravity toss , it's like there's something bigger and deeper before wisdom and then we're passing it on . I'm yeah yeah , I .

And then I called that the level of wisdom , that that you only gain through the years and and gain through the journey . Anybody can read a book now and then do , for example , change management .

They can talk to it , but then the wisdom will come in there when you've got situations to deal with actually not typical situations , because in the workplace they never straightforward , and so you only lean .

You only are capable if you actually have a level of what I call operational wisdom or learning wisdom , or whatever it is but that level In a common language they call it somebody's experience .

But experience , the outcome of an experience , is a wisdom , and that's why I think we listen to some people when they tell us the stories and we don't listen to some people when they tell us the stories . Is the stories that come with wisdom , you know , are the stories that we listen to and we associate with and and we feel deeply . So .

That's how I look at it . But without the learning process You're not going to get any level of wisdom or your level of wisdom will be just really limited , and that is a .

That's a loss to you , a loss to your family and friends , and that's a loss to humanity , in my opinion anyway , and I want to shift gear , and we are coming close to the end of the podcast . What did you learn about yourself during the research for the book ?

So it was learning about just I wasn't learning something new , but it was just in a . It was relearning that the process of learning in synthesis and finding your like the path to clarity is messy and to be okay with that .

So you know , originally I thought I'd structure the book is like 12 leadership lessons or you know some sort of number , and then have stories embedded in each and mysterious . You know what , actually where . I was always going to write it , but it was going to be our shared , our shared , separate but shared experiences .

And then , as I was doing the interviews , it became so clear that there was just so much richness that I needed to pivot and change , and so it's also was be .

It was the willingness to let go of a , of a image I had in my mind of what it was going to be , and when I was able to do that , I released into so much and then the writing actually float even so much better . So that was one thing I learned .

Another thing I learned in that is really just House and I knew this , so it was more of like the clarity of this , of the simplicity of the essence of what it means to learn and to lead , to create learning and and to show up with real intention is not complex .

We make it so complex with all these tools in these frameworks and these things , but those can be enablers , but when we get stuck on those we lose the real essence of it . And so Just getting back to that real clarity and that I really wanted to convey that to people to as a key takeaway from the from the book the path to clarity is messy .

And the second is to build in either as an in both as individuals and then as as teams or project managers or change agents .

Build in the time for reflection and learning into your project plan , into the daily , weekly , monthly routine , and you will get to that end point better and faster , although it feels like it's taking longer because we're not always doing so . Those are , those are two big recommendations .

Focus on that , that study and adjust in the pause so that we can have time for learning .

So , thank you so much for inviting me here . I always love learning and conversations .

Your support is truly appreciated and , by sharing this podcast with your colleagues , friends and fellow change practitioners , it can help me reach even more individuals and professionals who can benefit from these discussions . Remember , and in my opinion , change is an enduring force and you will only have a measure of certainty and control when you embrace it .

Until next time , thank you for being part of the inner game of change community . I am Ali Jama and this is the inner game of change podcast .