Solana's Jupiter Exchange and the Decentralized Future with Founder Meow

I'm your host Today . I'm really excited to have Ming here , who's the founder of Raccoon's Labs , which is building and designing and creating projects in Solana . The most notable one you'll know is Jupiter , which is a liquidity aggregator on Solana . It offers a range of tokens and routing discovery between token pairs and is by far the best Dex I've ever used .

Personally , super excited to have you here on the show . Thanks for taking the time .

Why are you here pushing so hard to build what is now the number one Dex on Solana ?

The reason I say that is because I do actually think that decentralized exchanges have a really big advantage in the long term over centralized exchanges . I think our goal is to manifest that possibility . Can we create an environment whereby people really prefer using decentralized systems rather than decentralized systems ?

I think that also answers why I'm doing what I'm doing . I'm vastly , vastly , vastly more interested in the world of possibilities by decentralized systems .

If you think about it , there are most two versions of the world One version that is governed by rules and existing systems and a lot of things are codified , whether it's a legal system or whether it's like a financial system . The financial system is probably the most codified system in the world , apart from the government system .

Even in the tech industry there are a lot of norms . If you go into the valley , you go anywhere in the world . Even those very open industries are also quite codified . They have the entire power structure of PCs and everything , both at a very human level , personal level , my preference . I don't like working within those social structures .

I like being in a social structure whereby it's a lot more open and experimental . I can figure out who I'm working with . I don't have to work with this guy just because he is well-known in the valley . Both sides have been wrong .

People who emphasize oh my God , that these centralized systems are so much better than decentralized ones , let me obviously , you know centralized systems have , like how many years , how many centuries to evolve . I also feel like on the other spectrum , everyone who is preaching decentralized nonstop is also kind of like it's also that wrong as well .

I say , come on , may come . We all know we work in the industry , we know Otherwise networks and communities are as full of shit , if not more , they're centralized ones . I'm actually not really saying that decentralized systems are better than centralized ones . I'm saying it at a personal level .

I think I'm much more interested in what I see are the much less codified and much more unlimited where there are no ways we can bring these systems , compared to trying to change the centralized systems for many , many reasons . Those two kind of give the context about why I'm so active .

That question really comes in two ways why am I motivated to kind of like , you know , build like a computer , and also kind of why I'm active right on like social media and stuff . The reality is that if you look at my social media and community thing , I actually have been very quiet right for the last two years .

I actually haven't really been like tweeting much and everything over the last 12 long time . I feel like now we are kind of transiting into a face . I really think of it as pre and post Bitcoin . I think pre-Bitcoin I'm not sure if you saw the presentation idea of Bitcoin .

Pre-bitcoin , I think will quite internally operated , right , we're all product right , okay , quite simple . But now it's like best price , best UX and best selection , right . So it was very internal . After Bitcoin , I think something shifted .

It went from like having to work to build the best product now you build the best community and then a really , really big part of bringing the best community right . And I'll be frank here you have to communicate strategy . You have to communicate strategy .

People have to know what you're thinking , and I think that's actually one thing that I think people kind of like are sometimes shy to say or they don't want to say it , right , you know , because they're like , okay , cool , or I'm going to say something that a computer doesn't like . They can push back on it , you know , and I can't do it .

Being able to talk through these things and handle it is actually a really important part of the job . The the mislead I think a lot of founders do in this space is that they think , oh , I have my job , which is like building , and I have the side job , which is talking to my community At the end . That's wrong , I think .

If you want to do a crypto startup , if you want to take funds from everybody , right . If you want to create a fund , even create a product , that around users and stuff , then I feel like you have to treat that conversation as your job , and that's kind of how I see it anyway . Yeah , that's it . That's really interesting .

It's really really , really hard for a builder or user to kind of break through that war , and I think that war is actually not there in retreat and I love that .

And there's two things like yeah , you're shy or like don't know what to say , but also it does take up a lot of energy , right , and like you're putting a ton of energy into building . And then like how much energy do you have left to talk to the community ? Like you're human right At the end of the day . How do you manage that ?

You know , how do you manage building Jupiter and being so communicative and engaged in with the community ? And I'm specifically like really interested in just in understanding if you have any process or like tips or things that you do that people can sort of actionably grab on to . I think that'd be super helpful .

First of all , I don't think I'm doing that well , by the way , you know , just because I think I'm trying , you know right . But because it's only a couple of months , you know , since I began like becoming a lot of public .

So you know , you can check it in a couple of years to see how it is , even though I was more quiet on social media , but I was actually highly engaged in terms of problems , right , if there's any like customer partner problem , or like a partner opportunity or user problem , we were there , right .

So we were quiet more in terms of broadcasting our values and everything , but we were still there in single . Now it's the way we're going to start to broadcast our values and everything . You know , at a very , very philosophical level .

You have to appreciate that we're all humans and people get anxious , you know , about their capital right , about their gains , what might seem trivial to you , because you are administering a large amount of token right . Just to take an example , I say you know I'm administering , like you know , five billion token right .

So to me it is very easy to become a number . To me it can be very meaningful you know what I'm saying Especially if you're not bad , especially if you haven't recovered from the last like FTX stuff , and then you're trying to find a way back , then again it can be extremely meaningful to you . This is kind of things , right .

So you have to understand that , the anxiety , that right . And then once you kind of empathize with the anxiety there , then you go , okay , cool , all right , I get it , I get it . But if you go over it in the mindset that , oh , I'm giving free money , why are they so annoying ?

Then I feel like your stress is a lot higher , you know , because you start to see other people as problems versus as like other human beings , right . So I think that's actually a very important like philosophy of mindset , and so that's the deep level

. And then , at a somewhat medium level is , I think , just communicating how you feel is often useful . They don't see you as a human . It sounds wrong , but they really don't really see a human , right . They see you as like a founder , right , or like a tech dude , right , you know . Or finance bro , right , well , crypto , bro , I think .

And some people might even think that , oh , I'm the rich and the good guy , but it doesn't hate you in what I'm trying , man , I think normally they actually are really understanding , you know , and even if they are always on a two dot knot , I feel like the broader community is always understanding . So it was really helpful At a tactical level .

I don't know , man , just take a lot of breaks , man , I have this flow of working . I could just do whatever I feel like doing , and sometimes it's writing and sometimes it's like debugging , sometimes it's product work , sometimes it's like talking to someone . At least for me anyway , I do recommend it .

We are brought up mostly to have a do-do list , right , and be productive , right , but I personally don't really feel like that is the way to do it .

To me , it's actually more like , you know , you're playing a basketball game , right , you know , yes , you have drew certain things like many , many times over , right , I mean , I'm very , very well drew in terms of product management , in terms of , like team management , in terms of , like you know coding things out in terms of prototyping , right , in terms of

communicating , right , I'm very well drew in these things , right . But then you don't go to basketball court and be like , oh , I have practiced ABCDEFG , let me do ABC , you can do that right . So it's more like , okay , cool , right .

But then at the same time , if you're not well drew right in ABCDEFG , you can actually go there and go , like you know , in SQL sequence one right . So I think for me , I feel it's actually two things right . Number one is that you have to get extremely well drew right At the key things , and this , this , any key thing , right , and I mean any right .

Sometimes it's involved like complicated strategy . Sometimes it involves like having a very hard competition . Sometimes it involves like everything to fuck up . It seems like very hard right , you know , actually going in front of like 10,000 people . When I tweet something , now , like you know , 5,000 people read it . If a shitpost , 5,000 people read it .

You think , if I do a really big post , like , maybe up to a million people read it , right , you know what I'm saying . It's a really broad range of people . And good idea , I fucked up , right , you know , do a lot of people with hard right but then .

But then you train them right , you train them right and then you just go okay , cool , right Now , now you can do anything you know . So I think it's more like getting really well trained . So I think , technically , for practical overview , it's just getting extremely used , you know , to doing some things right and then basically just do them you know .

So those are the things that I personally do and personally and my sets of personal in the dog , you know , to make it easier , I think yeah .

I draw from that experience a lot of my motivation and , like you know , use these analogies like hey , you know it's a double overtime right now and you need to get like an ankle pick to win . You know you've got to like keep pushing until the end and like really just never give up , which is like 90% of entrepreneurship .

But I use the same analogies for training and like you're not always in double overtime , you're not always in that like key moment where you need to perform , but the things you're doing on a day to day basis that are part of your job are the reps that you need to succeed so that when you are in that double overtime situation and you're not at your best ,

you can win . Like I think about this every day almost is like it doesn't matter how well I perform when I'm feeling good . It matters how well I perform when I'm feeling terrible , right , and when I'm at my worst , like that is the time that actually matters .

In your examples , you know it's like that customer that's super pissed off at you If you don't have the reps of practicing empathy and you're having the worst day , you're as a founder and you just blow up at the customer . What happens ? You know , like if you don't communicate with them and just be human and have empathy , you fail big time .

And yeah , that all comes from the practice and just the patience .

He always says it's right , no one works harder than me and I love that because that is so within your control , right ? I mean how tall you are , you know how strong you are and how high you can jump and everything . It's kind of out of control . The assistant you can always dig deep to find right , which is like how hard you work .

Right , and hard work doesn't mean you just work hard . That means that you work in a very specific hard way , right . So for him , I think he would just like do star sprints . Like you just sprint around the court and do a three-pointed right . Do a three or a three-pointed Do . That's rough man , it's something that's standard and that should .

It's nothing to like . That do a sprint and shoot , holy fuck . Then he tends to like really emphasize how much , like he do his drills , like he'll push himself to the physical and mental limit and then he'll do that .

It's not that hard to you know , shoot when you are like , when legs are fresh , right , it's not hard to do a cuter start out or any start out right In the bull market . You go to any investor , say , hey , I'm smart , right , I know ABC , right , I know this guy , that guy , I know that this , this and that guy have funded me .

Give money , it's not difficult at all . I feel like that's a glamorous part , I mean you know the game right . Come on , you know the game is actually pretty straightforward . Right , you have a narrative , you get what you want to buy in , you create the social gathering right , and then you , you play game . You get money .

Right , the game is very easy in the bull market . I feel like there's this crazy culture thing in crypto that's like how do you write ? I did , they fought in love the grammars , you know , right , oh , I'm cool , I'm a founder that I raise money right from who I will write . But that's not .

That's not what is easy , right , that's the equivalent of the layup , right , like raising money in a bull market is literally equivalent of a straight layup . It's easy , right , it's not proud of that at all , but can you sprint five times over the court right , play with the hard defense .

Can you play with the hard defense I haven't got in you and then make a trip ? That is hard .

And then what happens when the bear market comes and that's where the focus really comes into play is like staying focused and lean . I think we're coming into a pretty big bull market , I think , and it's like you got to remember to stay focused .

No , like , like , literally , it wasn't the bad market killed us , right , the bad market helped us . The market saved us .

The last two years where we had to just build stuff and then just totally had to really write the entire team to score some foundation , right , you know , I had to write my entire team to say , okay , that's because on UX and usability and liquidity , aggression , all that stuff , right , I built the best out . Go , right , the bad market saved us right .

What killed us right was the last bull market . You know the raging bull , right , and those bulls came in the form of the FTSE conglomerate . It came in the pool of the lunar tornado and it came in the form of a super narrative , right , you know what I'm saying . So those things killed us , not the bad market , the bad market saved us .

That's the thing that people don't understand . They really scared the bad right . All my fucking community scared the bad . I love the bad man . Dubai is great . You know I love the bad .

Man , you go to the music industry and you make it big and then everyone , you start to be hot right , everyone's off the piece of you . What's the song ? The one , eight mile . What is the song ? Eight mile , eight mile song .

You are not hot Full stop , full stop . You don't believe your own shit . You think , right , you know right , you are not hot Full stop , don't believe your own shit . But similarly , when everyone dump you , right , you are not down with either . You're not bad either . You're a simple person .

It's so difficult though , it's so difficult not to go like I'm the best person in the world , I'm the smartest , right , you know what , when things are going well and then when things are putting you off , I start to even die . You know what I feel like . Maintaining the spiritual poise , you know , that's really important thing , just just cool .

You know what I like , even when everyone loves you , do you know you are not a great , you know . Similarly , when everyone dumps you and you're not like either , you're starting having that . You know K . That's , you know , important , yeah .

talk about the future then . Like Jupiter is doing really well , what are you excited about that's coming ? You know it could be specific to Jupiter or just generally in the crypto space , like the future of the internet . What's most exciting to you that you're seeing getting built , either that you guys are building or that others are putting together ?

It's going to get worse in the coming few years . I'm very , very sure we're going to see the new generation of T-Talkers you know , who are going to be like shooting some kind of coin . I'm not interested in that . I'm really interested in that . People are excited about the cost . It brings them money and capital . That is a light brought industry .

So I get it , you know . But I'm personally a lot more interested in using crypto right In the region of crypto . And the reason I accepted about the region of crypto is because I really think that you know , you know , you know how earlier in the crypto we had this .

I find this T-Talk about , oh , crypto can be used for remittances and payments and financial system and social and data tracking , all that kind of juice , right and not that came true , zero , zero , right . But I think we are now finally at the point where we can see it potentially coming true .

And it turns out that for this vision of come true right , it's a whole range of things . You need to allow people to be comfortable with wallets . You know people that have no capital .

You need stable coins , you need multiple kinds of stable coins , you need equity , you need utility , you need everyone to be on one network , you need to be fast , you need fast networks . You need all these things right , and you need enough people to reach everything right . So I feel that that's actually the one thing that is possible now .

Right , you know that we start shifting the world . We really start using crypto , not just buying crypto . The other reason why I'm interested in that is because I think capital I'm not bragging here , but I think capital is in the perfect spot to kind of like help to bring this thing apart , how to bring new needs into face .

You know , first of all , we are on so on right , which is obviously a huge difference of like speed and accessibility and everything right . And secondly , I think the one use case that is everyone does , whether you , whatever you do , is creating right .

Trading is always your entry point in crypto , and so it's not like by building kind of the best , like the best trading experience we are good , like first touch point right Into using crypto , and then , when we have a critical mass of people , like as the first touch on crypto , then we can actually bring them to everything else .

You know what I'm saying All this awesome communities , all these awesome use cases , all these awesome utilities , right , and what investment opportunities , you know that's what I'm really interested in , right .

I mean , I'm really interested in the world where we start a new way for pushing right To make using crypto mainstream , and I really , really want , want us to kind of be helpful to the effort , you know , yeah .

Like there are people who collect , you know , high-end bottles of wine and high-end whiskies , but it's like in a liquid market that is hard to access , like you'd have to go to a place to buy a bottle of , like a rare bottle of whiskey , right , and they're using blockchain technology , right . They're able to create , you know , a liquid market .

And then , because it's all composable and on chain , there's like these network effects of like other things you can do with it , like collateralize it for a loan , like I know people with like a million dollars worth of whiskey sitting in their basement , you know like the biggest change with all these RWAs stuff .

I think we're going to talk about it , but I do actually think that circle is by far the best example of RWA . You know right , it's cool . It's cool that they're like okay , they have built the , they've built an entire company infrastructure .

I treated this before , right , you know , because we look at them kind of big and then you know we , they build together a really robust like regulatory and financial and logistic and technical system , right , do kind of like maintain that link .

You know right , and I feel like that's actually a challenge for a lot of other RWAs stuff which is like how do you get to the point where , because your tech is simple , you are simply using a lot of the technology , build like fresh initialization and AMMs and everything . So you're not really into anything there . So RWA is very , very operational .

You have to okay really operational supply chain between real-world distancing and really build a trust and regular system . And time you need time , people trying to charge you over time . I feel like that industry , or the whole RWA industry , will take some time to rebuild and it should take some time because it's actually really easy to start a RWA company .

Every boomer again I receive like 20 overpictures , right Investment pictures , saying , oh , please invest in me , I'm working in A and B and C big name company , you know . And then they always end up going nowhere because , like , building out their supply chain , right , you know , like their supply chain is being open , never bought it , and growing enough .

It's actually really fucking hard . I think we have to get right . You know , I'm personally waiting for the next generation of RWA projects to come up . You know , I think my personal challenge there is that , like , I will literally need to set up like my own and I'll be honest with you , I don't trust VC to do this .

You know , I don't trust VC to do this . The whole FTX incident have totally a higher risk . They convinced me that most investors are not equipped to understand things when it comes to complicated setups . You know , right , they have very good understanding things when it comes to a singular setup .

For example , say , you're investing in this domain or that domain , right ? Whereas Rw thinks that RWA it really spends across multiple setups and they're just not good at that stuff .

For me to actually really take it seriously and to set up my own team to kind of like with like regulatory , financial , technical , operational expertise and do audit on things which obviously I don't have time to write , you know , but I think that would be what I would do , you know , if I'm going deep into RWA . So for me that's a challenge .

Right , I would love to support RWA , right Staff is very , very hard for me to support something that I don't have full visibility into , the or understanding of the critical elements . You know , yeah , yeah , that's the husy . Yeah , I totally get it .

The challenge is that auditing is very expensive , right , especially when it comes to option auditing , right , it's very , it's very expensive . In the case of FTX , I bet that they probably showed the auditors look , we had these assets here , right . But they didn't say who else had the assets right .

Saying that person A owned assets , right , it doesn't mean that person no one else has you know , right ?

But still , like you're still having to trust that data , which is hard .

For example , say , I own a house and there are certain rights I can do to the house I can sell , I can rent , I can renovate everything . So it comes with a large number of like , the entire bylaws , right , or how , what you can do , right .

But then when you freshenize a house , it becomes more complicated , right , you know , like , okay , who do you have a doubt that decides ? So the doubt technically decides what to do with the house per se .

But you know , there's this whole legal link as well , right , you know , between like , who owns the house is probably an entity somewhere , we have both the centralized law and the decentralized law , right , you see ?

Right , and creating that link in the middle , okay , I'll be honest with you , every single RWA company I've seen , right , doesn't care what the link , right , they just treat it as not a problem and they just go oh yeah , it's something .

You know , it's not something it's actually very important and don't think people actually care enough about like very tricky intersections of rights and trust . You know , for RWAs , you know , but that's my thing .

So I think a really fun question would be like , okay , how these successes and failures , you know , change the mindset of things , right , you know ? I think so . I think that's a really good topic . I think , you know , it's probably also a topic that I'll be really interested in sharing for most people , I'm quite sure it's for totally as well .

For example , I'm sure she's filled in many things . I'm quite sure for the late as well . No , but the late , I'm quite sure for the late . Massive , massive win , obviously , but I'm sure she was a lot right . I think a lot of his ideas ended up being wrong . So I think it'd be really interesting , I think , to hear that perspective .

I'll go for example right , a lot of times , the community doesn't care about your product . You know right , they don't care about your product . Getting into the mindset of okay , cool , you know what I worry about . Like all I'm doing is putting product right . You know , I think it's wrong . If you're in crypto , the community is a product .

You know so it's all one thing . You know being not understanding all that . It's probably one of the biggest mistakes I learned , you know , yeah .

I think we're going to announce the token launch in January and right now I'm like feverishly , like a , furiously just writing down as much as I can about the Kauritos and what we're doing , right , and I think I should be done with those things by the end of December , right , you know ?

So I think we can have a really good conversation around those things , you know , yeah .