Living in the Present featuring Gloria Steinem

be nervous about. You might be nervous. I have no idea what and how this is gonna work, but that's how I do things. I know. That's what I love about you. It's gonna be awesome. It will be awesome. And let's just remember why we are doing this together, because I asked you to. I'm psyched that you're going to be doing this with me. I have no idea how. I know you're someone that likes to know exactly how, when, where, and why. So I think we'll be a good will

be a good balance to each other. I think you're exactly right. I think there's a part of me that loves the idea of winging it, and then there's a part of me that's like I need to research and know the formula and know exactly what questions I need to ask. So it's really a great exercise for me. Also, just like jumping off without a parachute and saying, you know what, it's gonna be great no matter what. Honestly, I'm even embarrassed to say this. We've been friends for

how many years? I think eight? Wow? I know I time it based on Zia, how old she is. Everything in my life is now clock to how old my child is. So I think we have known each other since before I left Google. We met each other when I was asked to come in and speak to the team at Google about entrepreneurship or whatever. It was women's empowerment and you were the head of legal. I always say that, but I know there was an official title.

I appreciate the promotion you give me every time we talk, so I I feel I feel loath to correct you, but I was. Yeah, I was a senior attorney at Google at the time when we met, and I came in because lunch, I mean, you know, lunch at Google is like nothing else, just you know, it was so cool and I was coming from you know, this corporate ish office and I just thought it was so cool. And and after the talk, you came up to me

and you said, will you be my mentor? And I looked at you, like really, and I said, okay, but everyone listening, don't ever ask me again because I had done it the second left in my dance card. But and that's how we became friends. And then we probably met for breakfast for lunch. And then when my son graduated Stanford and was looking for work, I said, go

meet my friend, just talk. And you know, your kids are always reluctant to take your advice, and I'm you know, and you guys hit it off and you helped him land his first job. What a great kid. And I just got marry and he just got married. It's like, you know, things just go so fast, which takes me

back to why I wanted to do this podcast. How many things are different since we met, since before the pandemic, how my life has changed, and how a lot of people's lives and and how things that you didn't realize were so important are really the important things. It's not just your career, and it's not just you know, how you show up at work. It's just it's really the words that come out of your mouth and how you

live your life A hundred percent agree. I think when we first talked about what this might look like and what we want to talk about, what would we both be interested in, These are the things that kept coming up. And it really it kind of dubtails back to my book and the conclusion that my Ted talk, which is that at the end of the day, what people really were focused on, their deepest desires were for three simple things, which was health, happiness, and love, and that was it.

And so it just that those themes sort of proved true again and again and over the course of the pandemic and on the other well when on the other side, but sort of in the thick of this pandemic um it feels like we just know that that's so true. And anybody who had a doubt that those were the things that really matter, they don't have those doubts anymore.

So it's going to be really interesting, I think, to talk to some of these incredible people that we both have a pleasure the honor of knowing, and to talk about the important stuff. So I guess it's time to get started with our very first guest on the important things we're talking to the one and only Glorious Dinham. That's right. I was thinking about how cool it is it I actually know Glorious Dinham and I was able to ask her to be on the podcast and she

actually said yes. I mean, how did you meet her? So my brief history with her. I actually first time I met her was at the White House. I was invited by Michelle Obama for wait, I'm sorry, yeah, let's just just pause here, like casually better the White House. Invited by Michelle Obama. I met her at the White House. Our lives are very different. Um No, it was an

amazing time in my life. I got invited to the White House a lot for a lot of women's empowerment and all these different things, but this particular time it was quite something. There was a luncheon and they were like, I can't even tell you how many amazing, powerful, cool women from from acting to just everything, you know, I mean, and Richard's daughter was there, Cecil like all these cool people, and Glorious Steinham was there and I went over and

you know, Rheese Witherspoon was there. People were just taking pictures with each other, fan girling each other and so it was okay. So I went up introduced myself to Gloria and she couldn't have been nicer. We took pictures and it was really cool. So, you know, I had those pictures and every year during Women's Empowerment Month, I could put up the picture and be like, yeah, thanks Gloria. And for some reason, out of the blue, I get a call one day from Jerry Leborne and asked if

I would introduce Glorious Steinham at Rutgers. They were making her the Glorious Dynham chair of this department, and I was like, are you kidding me? I'm going to introduce now. I was a wreck. So I did. I introduced her. She got up afterwards and said some of the nicest, kindest things about me, not to me, and so that started as a mini I won't say friendship, because you know, I don't just call her and say how's your day, but it started, you know, the first of a few

other things. Well, I'm really excited about this conversation. I have had the pleasure of meeting her twice, but more like me being one of the young women who ran up to her and just told her how much she meant to me and all her writing and just how inspiring she was to me and to my child. I had to tell you my daughter, Zio, you know, who's only eleven. Now, she's really unimpressed. She's like very at that phase where she's unimpressed with everything I do, Like

everything annoys her, everything's an eye roll. And when I told her that we were talking to Glorious Dinham, she stopped in her tracks and she looked, I mean, WHOA. And I was like, okay, I did all right. At least she knows Gloria Steinubz. I think she was actually impressed with her mother for a very short moment. So I will take those wins where I can get them. Well, let's I'm ready to I'm ready to talk to her. Let's see what happens. Let's do it. I think of

you as I do of Yogi Berra. Yogi was a dear friend of Nobody's ever said that to me, but it doesn't make any sense, but because he was like the top of this hero guy, and honestly he was a role model for me. I used to watch him deal with the people that went up to him and say hello and tell their stories, and he was so kind and nice but kept walking by the way, and I just I learned a lot. And you are the top of the heap, Gloria on every you, Yeah, name

one person on top of your heap. Well, first of all, we don't have a pyramid. We have an army. Uh huh, that's why you're you, and I mean, okay, right, it's not about a hierarchy. Look at all the things you've done that I could not possibly do. I mean, like eyeliner,

I've never even had a job unless created a company. Ah. Well, I should also introduce you to my co host and Julie, who is my co host on this podcast, and it's called The Important Things because honestly, things that used to matter don't matter as much, partly because I'm getting older and more comfortable and confident, and also because of the pandemic. It just kind of gave us a new way. So that is the podcast. Laura. It's such an honor to

meet you again. I have met you once because I was one of those women who came running up to you after seeing you speak. I've actually done this to you twice, so apologies for both times. But you were the most gracious, incredible person and so it's truly I'm trying really hard not to found girl and geek out right now, but it's really really humbling to be here in your company. No no, no fend girls allowed. But where where were we? Do you remember? It was two

different things. One was right after the sixteen UM election and you spoke. You and Annie Leeviowitz did an event at the Babil Correctional Center for my daughter's school. Oh yes, yeah, the photography And it was incredible. It was her photography exhibit, yes exactly, and you were with her and we were in the circle and everybody gathered first and I sat down in a random chair and the two of you ended up sitting right next to me, and I was

really losing it. I was really trying to be like, hey, Annie, it's cool whatever, but I did not feel cool inside UM. And then the second time was actually at the play, at your play. It was a random like Tuesday, and you happened to be there the same night. I was sitting next to Dan when Furstenburg, and across from us was you and Hillary Clinton, and that was it was like what is happening? Like all three UM icons of New York. Well know you you met you picked an

extraordinary night. It was incredible, right, yeah, And it was like really just aroundom. I think it was like a Tuesday, like a snowy Tuesday. I don't even know what happened, but it was. It was incredible. And so Diane brought me over to meet you and Hillary and that was another Yeah. So I've had these two wonderful brushes with you, and so it's an honor to be here with you.

Thank you for doing this so glory. Have you ever have these moments or have you in your life where you're like, I can't believe I'm meeting so and so, Like when was the last time you felt the way people feel when they meet you. Well, I can't speak for how other people feel, but certainly meeting Hillary Clinton. They're all kinds of people who um especially authors and

people you've seen on film. You know, it means something special because it's somebody that you've seen and means a lot to you, and then suddenly there they are, you know. So yes, right, okay, so you understand us? Yeah? No, no, absolutely, Okay. I think we we when we symbolize things to each other.

I mean, the first person I felt that about was Louisa May Alcott when I was a child, and I read everything, not only Little Women, but everything she ever wrote, and I used to fantasize that she would be alive again, and what would I say to her? And where would I take her? And what would you have said to her? Have you met her? Do you think? Well? I would have said, you know how much I loved her writing,

you know. In addition to writing Little Women, uh and other stories for young readers, she wrote some very realistic and somewhat depressed stories about the Civil War era. She was lad a really different and interesting life. Have you always been a reader? Yes? Absolutely always. I always thought that when I was growing up that if I started a book, I had to go straight through it until I finished, so I would stay up all night. And this was made easier because I wasn't going to school

most of the time. My parents had a summer resort in Michigan, and on the non summer months we would get in the house trailer and drive to California or Florida. So rather than going to school, I was on the road reading books, and you know, reading. So what are you like? It's such a silly, crazy question to ask you. But what are you most proud of in your life? Ah?

That's interesting. Well, I think I'm proud that I survived my childhood, which or my say from eight to sixteen year old hood because I my mother was an invalid. I was looking after her. We were living alone in a terrible old in Toledo. It was it was not easy, and I'm kind of amazed that I survived that. Wow. And what part of your success? I mean, first of all, do you feel successful? Uh? No, I don't. I mean

I don't feel either a failure or a success. I feel like excited about the next project, worried that I haven't met the next deadline. You know, it's it's more living in the present. How about fulfilled? Do you feel fulfilled? Yes? I do. I do, and I feel that if I'm not fulfilled, there's no reason outside myself. Perhaps because I have not had children, so I have not had to meet those needs and I'm no longer looking after my mother. I feel I'm able to be responsible for myself. And

what are some of your goals? Like do you want a podcast? I think you need a podcast that and I barely know what a podcast is. I mean, you know, you're doing great. It's a conversation. It's people talking and sharing the conversation. Could you tell a Julie about your conversation circles in your house, because I was lucky enough to be in one. Yes, those are talking circles, which I think are an institution beginning in Native American times before Europeans ever showed up. So there was a circle

of people, each of whom had a turn speaking. In fact, there was a talking stick that people passed around so that when you held it you could speak, and then you passed it to the next person. And I think still that's the best form of human organization because everybody gets to speak, everybody listens. It means that everyone learns. It's also calm, hopefully non violent. I mean, it's not like two opposing sides the miniature in a circle. It's better than being in a hierarchy. So I think that's

a very important form. Yeah, you did. That was one of the formats of of the talk that you did with Annie lebo Wiz is that we were all in community and in stress. And it was really a fascinating dynamic because as much as we were all looking to you and Annie to lead the conversation, sort of take us through the exhibit and take us through these really complicated feelings that we were all having in that moment

and sort of the heat at that moment um. There was something so leveling and opening about that format that I was really surprised by because it's something that's sort of very native to Indian culture. Annie. As as you may have noticed, Annie is incredibly shoy. Yes she is. She kept leaning over to me and talking, and I was like, everybody's over there, Like everyone's over there waiting for you. But I felt like I was monopolizing when I was like, oh, I think she's you know, she's

more comfortable having you lead. You know. So some some other great photographer, the past Avadon or somebody probably might have felt okay lecturing about their photographs, but Annie definitely did not. And because I had gone to her first exhibit, she asked me too and reformed a talking circle as you remember. Then she asked me to continue to do that. So actually I traveled with her to quite a few different countries, from England to Mexico City with that exhibit,

and talking circle was always part of the exhibit. By the way, one more thing on the podcast, your own podcast. People would tune in to hear what you have to say. But we have so many things to teach the younger generation, you know, the women that are just coming up, and who better than you to lead the conversation or to start the conversation. I agree, well, and and we have

so many things to learn from them, you know. So if we could figure out a way to have a talking circle on a podcast, Yeah, maybe you can help me with that. I will, I will follow up on that. I you know me, I see things and I kind of get them to happen. So yes, I would say that's an understatement. Yeah, well I still can't even believe that you know me, Like I can't even believe that I know you and I. It's just kind of that crazy world. Yeah, well why not? I mean, look at

what you've accomplished. I mean, you're there aren't many women who are called titans of a whole industry, but I noticed that people refer to you that way. They also call her the O G. We refer to Bobby as the O G a lot. I feel like people would say that about you tube Claria, But do you know what the O G is Gloria. Okay, I didn't either. When someone called me the o G. I had to ask my kids it meant it means original gangster. Oh no kidding, yes, so, but of beauty. But I'm a beauty.

You are women women's empowerment, you know, women's empowerment. Well, I've just learned something. I mean, you know, thank you. Yeah, I'm going to put this in my bio. I'm going to write down to my bio that I tell you what it means, and we're going to get her one of those gold necklaces that says O G on it. You know, those cool wrapped necklaces, and you're going to walk into some event and I'm like, look at how cool glorious steinum is. You know what what what you

must do? And I found very difficult even when we had Miss Magazine, which obviously was our own creation, was being regularly present nine to five um and being responsible for a structure and for paying salaries. I mean, that is a huge, huge responsibility. I don't do that. I have someone that does that. I am no, but honestly because of you, I mean, there wouldn't be but it's the same. I mean, I'm only successful because I hire people around me that do things I don't. I can't do.

I I don't know how to type. I've written nine books. I do not know how to type. And I, you know, I asked an Julie to do this with me because she's so incredibly well read and smart and I'm just, you know, observant and I kind of so it's just nice to have different people around each other. No, I I totally agree with you. And the Miss Magazine was somewhat like that. But for instance, I remember the trauma

of ever having to fire anybody at Miss Magazine. You know, they would have breakfast with pet Carbine for six weeks and lunch with me for three weeks, and then we would find them a fellowship, right exactly, Yes, Seinfeldt, they call it foisting. You like to voice the people you don't want around you. Yeah, let's get them another job. And now now what happens They hire people like me to do the fire, which is such a bummer, But that's that's the kind of stuff I got hired to do.

Did you have to do that? And Julie, did you always have? Yeah? Not always. I had never fired anybody until the last full time job I had, and they hired me as the chief people Officer in addition to a g C role, and so I had to start firing people and it was just awful. But I would spend like weeks counseling them out. I mean, I basically found them internships. I was doing the same thing because I was like, don't you want to pursue your dreams? I was like, what about this other thing you might

want to do? And now I'm really good at it, but I sort of and be able to convince people it's their idea because that's how good I am. So like, I don't feel like, this is you living to your highest potential. Yeah, I think I think that that's a probably a very female cultural thing. Don't you think that it is difficult because our our model of governance is the family, and you don't fire someone from the family. But there's moments I really wanted to Gloria, how do

I cancel that? Actually? I have a question to you about family. I was listening to and interview did and you were talking about how when girls, in particular, when they're about eleven twelve years old, that that's when they start losing their self confidence. And I hadn't heard it said that clearly that it was that age exactly. And interestingly, my daughter is exactly that. She's a love and going on twelve, you know, sort of any day now. Um,

and I'm seeing that difference, and it's really upsetting. You know. It's because she's the kind of kid that I think, like so many kids, she just thought the world was always her, she could do anything, she was unstoppable, all these things. And then suddenly there's it's like confidence gap kind of coming up right now where she's starting to doubt herself in a way that um, that is it just feels like it's society kind of telling her all the things she can't do, even in this moment of

the futures female. And I don't know what to do. I don't know how to help her. I don't know how to to push her along. Well it is, I mean, I in a general way, I think it's because the gender role comes begins to come down upon us then, I mean, gender doesn't really care about us until we're a reproductive age in a way, so until we're I don't know, seven or eight or nine or ten. We can climb trees and say I know what I want, I know what I think, and then then gender comes

comes down upon us. So it just I think becomes especially important that you and her family and her friends, uh, emphasize listening to her, you know, and that what she says and what she wants, what she hopes to do in the future, all those things are just as important as if she was a male human being. And also know that the kids. Now that my kids are older, two of them are married. You don't think you teach them, but then you watch them and you realize they learned

watching you. So you being you know, the right role model is more important than what you say because at one point she's not going to listen to you. Yeah, that's that's start started. Yeah no, no, what you what you what you do is is even more important than what you say. But I hope you're now you're parenting is paying off right because you're seeing them parents. Oh it's unbelievable. My kids have dogs. They're newly married, they

have dogs, and they're really strict dog parents. So you know, I was not a strict mother, but um, but they turned out okay, you know, So I mean, so the question is Gloria, what are the important things in life? Like what does that mean to you? And has it changed from when you were, you know, just starting out to now. Well, I think that when I was younger, survival was the important thing because things were tough after that.

I think I was trying to do. Um. I knew I was supposed to get married, have children, and lead a particular kind of life, especially because I'm talking the nineteen fifties here, Okay, right, Uh, So I was rebelling, but I was hoping no one would notice, and I was just doing it for the moment. So I went off and lived in India for two years. I came

back and became a freelance writer. But I kept thinking that I would conform, and I think I managed to continue that until I was about forty, and then I realized, wait a minute, this is my life and I'm kind of happy this way, and so what's important to you now? Uh? What's important to me is um kindness, I think, I mean, I I don't want to be part of exchanges that are cruel or exploiting or unfair. I try my best not to do that. Um I am. I wish that I wrote every day. That's important to me, but I

don't do it because actually I email every day. But that's not necessarily the same thing. Not the same thing, um, but it's separate from those that are kind of goal related. I think it's just being alive in the present, you know what, whatever you're doing, just trying to keep your senses open. Do you have a certain ritual, like you know, I'm someone that I drink a couple of glasses of water every morning, then I have a coffee, then I

open up my iPad. Do you have a routine? Um No, I'm already envying the water thing because I understand that that's important. I should do that right and when it becomes a habit and then you're used, you know, I fully realized that. Then I'll try to resolve to be better about that. Um, you're doing something right, glory, I think. I think we can. You know, whatever you're doing is working. But I have orange juice and then I think, okay, I should have a little protein, whatever form that takes.

And then I look at my email and see if there's any emergency or anything that can require action at the moment, and that usually ends up taking way too much of the day. So I can only say that the book that I owe my publisher is vastly overdue. So is there anything besides drinking water that you wish that you would include into your day to day I am, you know, also a health coach on the side, so I I know certain little things do help. Mm hmm. You don't exercise, right, I don't. Oh me neither. I

don't look at that I have something in common. No stretching, No, I don't. I stretch, No, not really. I mean occasionally I t but I wouldn't. I would not be telling the truth if I said that I did this with any regularity. So that would be a New Yorker. So you walk everywhere, right, I mean you're in New York. Yes, Well I was walking everywhere then and then I sprained my ankle, so I've been indoors for a while, so I have to recondition myself. So what do you think

you learned during the pandemic about yourself? Mm hmm. Well, I learned that the habits that I have acquired were useful during the pandemic. That is, because I was not accustomed to going to an office. I had been traveling quite a lot, and you know that happened no more. But as I was saying, writers are accustomed to staying at home and that became a useful habit, I also

discovered that there was a limit to that. I mean, after three months of staying at home essentially by myself, I did take the opportunity to travel to California and stay on friends ranch, so that I had some change

of view and it wasn't going stir crazy. I guess I also learned once again that I'm a alcoholic because I kept thinking, Okay, now that everybody is equally vulnerable to this organism, whatever it is, and the organism pays no attention to gender or race or class or age, maybe it will help us to stop paying so much attention to those things. Do you think it has impacted any of it? No, I have no no objective proof in terms of even surveys or public opinion polls, but

I do think so, don't you. I mean, since COVID didn't respect national boundaries and didn't respect race or class either, certainly there's a difference in healthcare that is very political, But in terms of getting COVID, uh, there was no difference. So I'm hoping that that equalization will carry into the future. I worry that it it just exaggerated all the differences though.

I mean, I think I'm sort of saying things are probably obvious, but it was It's like, yeah, we're all writing in the same storm, but we have very different size boats to get us through it, and very different types of paddling equipment. Yes. No, I mean it's certainly. It's certainly exposed the inequities of our health care system. I mean, we're the only major democracy in the world

without universal healthcare, and that's to the detriment of everybody. Yeah, and and hopefully at least the conversation is out there. There were things we weren't talking about before, and now everyone's at least talking about it. But we started this discussion with you talking about kindness. And I do think that people are getting or becoming more kind and realizing that that's the way they should be. So that's to me one positive thing. Yeah, and I hope you're right.

And I think there are other pluses of this period of time. I mean, men have been at home more, men have been at home with their children and gotten to know their children, seeing whore that takes to do to childcare. That's helpful. And my father, who's eighty six years old and lives by himself, discovered how to do laundry and swift ng and you know, he takes boxing and he reads to kids in schools, you know, on his on his computer. So you know, there there is

hope for for everyone. H do you read or watch the news? I do watch the news. I mean, I compulsively watch the news, even though it's repetitive. Somehow I keep thinking there's going to be a new detail, and if I don't watch it, then I wonder what's happening. I don't watch anything else except the news regularly, except Law and Order. Somehow I got Mariska harget Is, who I actually met a few days ago for the first time.

It is a great figure, a great female heroine. I think on television, just seeing everything that's happening right now in the news, how do you try to not feel demoralized based on all the kind of rollbocks of abortion rights and all these things that you fought so hard for. And then I feel like we're still fighting for today because I feel like myself, I mean, and I know so many of my friends and colleagues and sort of

women in arms are feeling just exhausted. Well, you know, I think we should recognize that controlling reproduction is always the first or as far as we know, the first step in every dictatorship. I mean, the first thing that Hitler did when he was elected was to padlock the family Plan and clinics and declare abortion a crime against the state, and so did Mussolini. We we we understand instinctively that if we don't as women govern our own bodies,

were not living in a democracy. But I don't think we understand that it's the basis of the Controlling our own bodies, men and women is the basis of democracy. So if I could actually one final thing, which is someone that's listening to this interview, if you could tell them one thing that, according to you, that would change the course of their life for the better, what would

it be? Mm hmm. That's so difficult. But if I if I try to think of something that is within their control rather than having to do with living and food and you know, outside support, I would just say that there's a kind of instant democracy in listening as much as you talk, and talking as much as you listen. Women often are taught to be good listeners, but not necessarily to express themselves. Men may be taught the reverse, uh, stereotypically, so all of us can gain from equalizing those two

human functions. So honestly, this has been such a joy to have you on this glory. I can't believe that you said. Yes. We are both so happy to to talk to you and to share your story and to really introduce everything you have done your entire life to a new generation and just to keep just to keep going. And you'r and I want you to keep going. Come on, I'm coming over. We're going to stretch, alright, And yes, I want you to keep going. Yeah right, no, well

I and I'm so glad. I mean that at least technology has given us this little talking circle of our own here. Uh. And it's not the same as being together physically, but it's the next best thing. So I thank you very much for coming into my bedroom so to spirit, which is where I'm sitting