The Piketon Massacre Live: CrimeCon Q&A

event called crime Con in Las Vegas, Nevada. Crime Con is a large expo event where true crime fans can meet and discuss cases from their favorite crime shows and podcasts. We were honored to attend and were able to record a Q and A on their stage with fans from across the country. George and Billy Wagner have pleaded not guilty to charges of murdering the Rodent family. This discussion was meant to serve as a conversation of things we've

covered in the podcast and heard from our sources. Because the trials are still upcoming, much of it remains speculation based on the criminal allegations against the accused and their actions. It's important to keep in mind that all parties are innocent until they are proven guilty or enter a guilty plea. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a live Q and a episode of The Piked and Masker. Now, please welcome to the stage Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Lydecker, and Joseph Morgan. Yeah,

and thank you the voice of Courtney Armstrong. It's a lot easier in my closet versus out with all of you. But you're such a welcoming audience and we again are just grateful you're here. And I yeah, we are grateful. Yeah, thank you for even being here. We're true crime fans in this particular case, I think has gotten into our

personal DNA in a way I can't quite describe. We have a few questions that people have written in via social media or in various ways, so we were going to ask some of the most popular ones and then we're excited to hear any additional ones. So a lot of people asked before the arrests happened, what did you think had happened that night? To the eight members of the Road and Family who were murdered and is there a difference now after the neighboring family the Wagners have

been arrested. So Stephanie for me personally, when we first got involved with the case, we thought it was the cartel or something nefarious unrelated to the Wagner family, or that there was no such thing as a killer mother, or that a family could do that to somebody who they knew so well. And they say truth is stranger than fiction, right, So, as it turns out, we might have been wrong. Although this season, I will say and Joseph,

we all this is all we talk about. There are new theories and there's new information that we have access to now that kind of shakes a lot of those theories up. We're frankly more confused than ever. Yeah, and one thing that I think my opinion is evolving on stuff said. I also thought it had to be a professional who navigated for different locations in one night for

eight people. But as bits and pieces have come out in trials and with different motions back and forth, I'm definitely inch by inch more convinced that the Wagners they indeed have the right people behind bars. Yeah, I gotta tell you y'all listen for a second. And just I've had several people ask me this question actually too since i've been here, relative to Piketon, and I think it's an interesting idea. If you're the Wagoners, what's that conversation like in a car if you're on the way to

four separate locations. Yeah, they were allegedly having murder meetings, like a family of four was enjoying dinner and talking about murdering a family. The Yeah, and I got a few guests a year ago, two years ago, I went up to the crime scenes to take a look in the home that the Wagoners had previously occupied, this beautiful, green, lush area, and it's this, you know, this multi story

old farmhouse with pastors beyond it. And you know, I sat there and I was outside the home, and I was thinking, So, it's in this home where you've celebrated Christmas and Thanksgiving and everything as a family, and maybe you're sitting around at table and maybe talking about completely and totally ending a familial line at that point in time.

Just let that sink in just for a second. And this is a conversation that you're having across the dinner table and then that that night you know that I know you got and I've talked about it's it's you know, for me as an investigator, it's it's the timing element. How do you get this down so that you go from point A to point D and you don't get caught? How is it that you do this? And that has as an investigator it left me scratching my head and

I'm with staff. The first time I heard it, I'm thinking, yeah, this is some kind of organized crime head. They've come in, they they've they've angered the wrong person, and I think in this case, they it looks like they may have angered the wrong family. And not to mention, that's four people. We all follow true crime for a living, right. You guys are here because you have this brain to be able to solve things. Four people sticking to the same story.

So grown adults, four of them allegedly decided to get into a car and go to one house, then go to another house, get back in the car, then go to another house, get back in the car. At what point does one of them not say no or enough, We've murdered too many to get through four locations in one night, and to know that it's just potentially people who many say are lovely and never would know it in a million years, you know, we want to be able to spot the boogeyman for ourselves. They don't fit

the bill. And in one of our trips, and we've had the benefit of going several times over the years as we've been just can't let this case go, obviously, and we've driven several times from as Joseph said, from A to B to C two D. Not that we

know the order, no one, no one knows what. No one knows the order yet and just yeah, the consciousness of Stephanie said, you start the car back up and sit back down, you know, and then to take a longer road because three of the houses are very close together. But then when you go to Kenneth Road and it's more than ten minutes. So the consciousness there's there's no spur of the moment. You are simmering in what you've done,

not to mention waking up the next day. All four of them lived together and then woke up the next day, took showers and then pretended that they were desperate to find out who did it, had the nerve to talk to press and give interviews and say we missed these victims. And honestly, that's a hard thing to do. Also for people just zipping it and not flubbing their alibi, you know, to that point, this is one of the things that

has chilled me to my bone. And that is when they got up the next morning, this family had essentially been eradicated. However, someone knew that there were two babies that were wallowing, yes, in blood, the mother's blood in that environment, left behind a five day old. Yeah, I mean, can you begin to fathom that. I've seen you know, I've seen my sheriff cases in Atlanta and yours, you know, working for the NME in the corner, but I'd never you know, when they told me this, you think you've

seen a thing or two. But as as the team began to explain it to me, I began to try to put the pieces together forensically, and of course the dad and me, the grandpa and me. You know, I began to think about this and I'm thinking, who, who, who could do this? Who could be this callism? And Joseph, He's done a beautiful job. But you know, maybe as a death investigator you can talk a little bit about

the types of shots or the amount of shots. Yeah, yeah, we do have some solid information relative to the number of gunshot wounds that were involved. And there is a This is not an execution style classically, as Stephanie had pointed out, where you think about somebody kneeling before you and you shoot them in the back of the head. A new mother is essentially shot in the face five times.

One of the rounds actually entered her eye, and so that gives you relative to orientation relative to the victim to the muzzle of the weapon. They are literally standing down the long axis of the barrel. If she was

still alive at the point in time. And again we have not been able to go through the autopsy report in details, so we don't know where, like for what wound tracks still have in dwelling hemorrhage, which is one of the things that we look at to see if an individual has sustained a postmortem or an anti mortem

insult at that point in time. But she was looking down the barrel of this She's in bed at this moment time and the picture that this creates is that an individual has gotten onto the bed or adjacent to the bed and fired directly into her face that there may have been an awareness they may have shown up also with flashlights to kind of blind or disorient at

that point in time. You can imagine with your in total darkness for a moment, kind of imagine in your mind that you're in total deep sleep and suddenly a flashlight is in your face. There might be screaming involved, Your newborn baby is cradled in your arms immediately adjacent to you, and maybe for a second you see a flash and then your life ends. But it doesn't end simply there, because they continue to fire over and over

and over again. We've heard terms like homemade silencers being created, and also an interesting little caveat is that we've also heard the term brass catcher. And for those of you that are not familiar with firearms, if you're using a semi automatic firearm, it's going to eject brass, spent brass. The ideas to catch the brass so that not only are you trying to muffle the sound, because there's not really any such thing as a silencer, it's a suppressor.

You're trying to muffle the sound, and then you're trying to catch all of the brass so that you cannot leave anything that can be traced back forensically at that point in time. Because we can look at spent casings along the same line as we do ballistic examinations on spent rounds. It's not quite as accurate. You've got extraction marks soft brass, but you can tie them back in a general sort of matter to a particular manufacturer, so's they came prepared. That's what we're talking about. I have

a question right here. So watching Jake Wagner plead guilty in court, did you guys see any kind of nonverbal signs that maybe he was ashamed, had regret, because I think I did, especially when they called a name. Okay, so you guys do think maybe he had to come to Jesus moment in prison. I couldn't. I literally couldn't believe it. And it's funny you're saying maybe he was showing remorse. Listen, it's it's a facial thing and you can read it different ways. I saw it as a

smirk whatever that means. I don't know. Mild. Yeah, I found it revolting his reaction, I can tell you that. Yeah, And it's just about the heat up because les are starting and we now have new information from Angela and even Angela Wagner, we now it's very rare. Well, we all know, we all worked on the Nancy Gray series together. That's how we met Joseph, so we all were raised in the house of true crime, you know, by the best. It is very rare to see that many women involved

in a case this violence. It's very rare to see women allowing that level of violence against other women, let alone other mothers, let alone other mothers holding their children. It is a rare thing. And now to know that Angela Wagner was buying silencer equipments at Walmart looking like just one of us. She looks so normal. She's buying silencers for her kids to go murder people. It's unfathomable. Really, yeah,

it is. And there's there was recently a hearing, Daubert hearing as it's referred to, and it's kind of the measure of the evidence and the veracity of the evidence or the validity of the evidence being put forward, and

it had to do with shoe print evidence. And so what has come out is apparently that mom had gone to Walmart and bought a very specific type of shoe and again premeditation going to thinking about this, what can we buy that's new that is not going to be traced back specifically to us because there's no wear patterns. The shoes are new at this point in time. It's not like they're worn down and you can tell if somebody can pronate or supernate and all those things we

look at and forensic footwear. These are brand new and maybe they had enough thought about this to go and purchase these shoes. And of course we've got trials coming up, and we'll see how this plays out as it goes forward. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment bringing it back to those shoes that Angela bought. So just to set the stage and remind people who

have listened or informed people who haven't. The accused family, the Wagoners is mother Angela late forties, I believe she's fifty now, father Billy, and their two sons in their twenties. So just to set the stage, and you know, Stephanie started talking about how Angela plan and she physically bought

stuff for this murder. They have her own surveillance at Walmart buying it, and you know a lot of people have asked about all of the mothers involved in this case and what our thoughts are, Stephanie, if you want to speak to mothers and how they play into this. What kind of a screwy mother would allow allegedly her sons to murder a plan she puts in place then tells them all to zip it so they can all go about their lives. We never heard of a killer family. Again,

we're all true crime people. Very rare for a family to kill together. Adults on top of it, who were functional members of the plan, like everybody liked them. We heard very nice things about them. And to know that Angela Wagner, by her own admission at this point, was actually the one that planned the whole thing. So if she wants custody of her granddaughter, her big plan is to make her own sons murder. I won't get Joseph started on this, but Joseph's my most We think he's

the most interesting person alive. For the record, yep. The notion that the authorities, the sheriff specifically who's currently behind bars for taking bribes and unrelated cases, they moved all of the crime scenes so we all know if there was a crime happening right this second here, God forbid, the doors would shut, the police would be here, nothing would be touched, right, we would preserve this sacred crime scene.

How about the fact that four locations they literally put the homes on a truck and moved it across town, pretty much guaranteeing that nothing is sacred from a forensic standpoint, which if they had gone to trial, had Jake not confessed, they might have gotten away with it simply because a good lawyer would have said they tampered with evidence. That's when Joseph got involved. When again Joseph through Nancy, we were like Joseph, this makes no sense and just another

thing on the evidentiary handling of these time scenes. Not only were they moved, disrupting everything everything they were then and this is fact, they then were unguarded. They were completely unguarded. We've spoken to attorneys and journalists who went there, and one of the attorneys he said, you know, I'm practicing fifty years. Do the math on how old I am. He said, I could hop that fence and do what

you will with the evidence. So I think all of us are on particularly so curious how that will play out in the there's actually floating around out there. A photo that's kind of iconic to me, where these trailers, these mobile homes. And when I say mobile home, I'm not talking about like a trailer like an RV. I'm talking about a mobile home. I was at this site. I could see where the thing that it was hooked up to the septic and you know, the water pipe.

The stubs are still in the ground, and I'll get back to that in just a second. But the place where these things were deposited, it looks like an old hangar almost. It's vast area and there's kind of this iconic photo now where these things are in there and there's a main entrance gate and the gate is cracked

open and someone is on the outside. Now, this violates from a forensic standpoint, this violates every principle that you guys hear about us talk about here where it comes to security, crime scene security, and holding onto the evidence,

because you have to be able to preserve the chain. Well, I don't know about you guys, but if I've got four crime scenes which are being housed in a warehouse, I think it's pretty important to be able to at least at a rudimentary level, to demonstrate that we give a damn about it and we're gonna lock the gate, you know what I'm saying. And so that that's just one of the issues. And when do you remember what we talked about just a few moments ago where we're

talking about gunfire. Right, So let's say, for instance, and we've got I can't do the math off the top of my head, mass hard, but anyway, we've got the math that gives us a huge number of rounds have been popped off in this in this house thirty two. And what do we talk about all the time? You hear us talk about pontificate about things and crime scenes.

One of the things we talked about is bullet trajectories. Right, Okay, Well, if you're in a mobile home, or if a mobile home is being transported, you've got multiple gunshots have been fired in this in this environment that's now rolling down the road, bumping up and down the road, and not just that it's swaying back and forth. Can you tell me? And if I was a defense attorney, I would ask this question. It needs to be asking answer. Can you

guarantee that these walls are still plumb. Can you give us an idea that when because you're putting them there not just to secure them, you're putting them there to examine them in real time, not just to preserve the evidence. But remember what we do as forensic scientists, we're kind of historians in the sense we want to preserve that

environment so that it can be documented and presented in court. Well, is this a real and true and accurate representation of what was actually there before they removed it off of the foundations and travel down these roads? And I got to tell you, and I know they can testify to it. When I say roads, This road is like as why we had to pull over on the side of the road to get let other parts pass this wide? And you're talking about these narrow little lanes that they're dragging

these things down. Look, don't believe me. On the internet there's the pictures of the mobile homes going down the road and being told but that's when they got out to the main road. These twist and turns that they're having to take. Not to mention, how do you secure anything that was nailed to the wall or this hung on the wall that's us going to fall off? How do you know that nothing was broken in there? And

can you prove it? Can you demonstrate it? And at the end of the day, that's what the prosecutors are going to have to do. I think this is a big uphill climb for them from an evidentiary standpoint. Let's stop here for another break. We'd love to hear any questions. We have a couple of more, but you guys are here. It was all about his little girl, So mamma could grandma could finally have her baby girl? Why on earth did he throw everybody else under the bris? Sob Horton

and I have worked together for decades. We cried because it was such a stain on humanity that hearing him say I'm guilty. He also apparently has found God in prison and has been reformed, and his brother has requested solitary confinement. Religion plays an interesting role also. We also have heard that they're getting threats behind bars, and that that might be part of the reason why he's confessing, and not to mention. Apparently nobody knew when Jake confessed.

We're told that his mother, his father, and his other brother had no idea he was going to plead, which really screws them and leaves them with a bag. So he although it was taking the death sentence part off the table, he was also sealing their fate because had they all gone to trial and kept quiet all of this, forensics probably would have been up for conversation and they might have gotten off. And interestingly, and this is something that's new since so a Stephanie said it was maybe

he found religion. Everyone says God is in a lot of prisons because a lot of people seem to find religion there. But you know, and maybe he wanted to save the lives and that's why he testified. But it's become clear in different court motions and different stuff. The prosecutor has gone on record that if Jake does not testify to the prosecution's liking and to the extent of what he has agreed to, guess what, the death penalty is right back on the table for everybody. So we

had never heard of that before. Imagine, you take a plea agreement, you get your family off of death sentences. However, when you go to trial to testify against them in front of them, which will be the first time they all see each other eye to eye, will be when Jake is testifying against them. Bring it up. Hold on, someone is going to yes, you got it, very kindly, come and while that's coming, just thank you for listening. I think we all are just very like minded and

just being justice junkies. We really genuinely it's not grizzly stuff that we enjoy. It's trying to figure out the why and the who and the truth. Yeah, I have a question. Um, Hannah Rodin is the one that had the baby, correct, and she's the one that had the child with Jake. Great, okay, why thank god they did, But why do you think that they left the baby alive? Like, wasn't that a point of contention in that family? Yes? It was, and this, Yeah, it's a great question. It's

a great question. So part of let me phrase this simply. It's such a layered question. Actually, you know, as Stephanie mentioned, custody is a piece of this. Whether it was the full thing will come out in the wash. Angela Jake's mother. So this grandmother who ps had her grandchildren call her mama and told told the mothers that you are not their mother. You gave birth, but I am their mother. Just a little hint into her mindset, But why did

they leave that baby alive? So they had the three year old that they shared, and the Wagners filed for custody of this five day old baby, saying that will need her sister with her, So it was a to keep them together. And then one other interesting thing on that is, in the event that Hannah May died, which of course this poor girl was murdered nineteen years old, then because she would go to Jake. If Jake the father died, customy would not go back to his mother

Hannah May, it would go to Angela, the grandmother. And that was with forged documents, and it was a summer of life. Hannah was a young girl, right, she meant somebody else. She had a new boyfriend, Charlie Gilly. Interestingly, I've always thought Frankie rode In the eldest victim's son was sleeping beside his fiance and the three year old is the one that got under the bed. The zombie story, Hannah Gilly was shot five times in the face, which was the second most of any of them. And I

never understood why the connection might be not proven. But this is my theory personal is that Hannah Gilly's brother was Charlie Gilly, who was the boy that Hannah May was dating and not with Jake anymore. So there is like a legit little love triangle happening here. But at the time of the murders, Jake, Jake and Hannah were still seeing each other. From what we now know, she was keeping things nice. She was doing a lot of social media posting asking for help. She obviously felt bullied

by the Wagner family and by Jake. She probably just wanted to get rid of him. But at the time of the murders, Jake Willy did believe that five day old was his so much so in the days right after the murders he filed for custody and they did paternity tests. So why would he kill her if he thought maybe they could get back together because that baby was his. What is your theory why they gave the mother such a great plea deal of thirty years and

took away the aggravated murder Angela her. Yeah, it's being speculated that Angela was not there that night, and that she sent everybody out that night, and that she was looking after the grandkids. Because we've been obsessed with that. If like the jake picked up his daughter outside of their custody plan the day of the murders by coincidence. Then that night they all go out and murder everybody

who was watching the kids. Anybody who was watching the kids would know that they weren't with the kids the night of the murder, and then therefore they should be held accountable. My two cents, it's like been keeping us up at night. They found a box, like a Xerox paper box that said important stuff on it and in it it's like all the evidence, like literally truth. Yeah, why would you not given to the evidence. And that

they were clever enough to do surveillance. They had cameras, they were watching every they were in every Instagram account, every coming and going. That's kind of when we got involved. To the idea that the killer dogs that were trained attack, so that was not uncommon, but the idea that they did an attack kind of uncommon. Right, So they must have known the assailants and there wasn't any noticeable forced entry. Joseph can speak more to this. So somebody probably, we think,

either had a key or went through a window. They knew the family very well, so the dogs knew them. So that wouldn't be unusual. And if it was the cartel, which was the initial idea, the cartel would have not left anything breathing, including the dogs. They would have killed the dogs, killed the babies. They would have been an assassination in and out, as opposed to what we now know to be this enormous over kill. Have you thought

of this theory? There is no way in the world Angela is gonna let these three men go take care of her. Plot. Who's taking care of the grandkids, Frederica, Yes, that is the question. That's what I believe too. I'm with you on that. Can you share with us anything new about the grand matriarch Frederica. Yes, she answered the phone recently when we called. Yeah, she wouldn't speak with us. Courtney and I debate this all the time. I'll tell you my side of it. Oh, Frederica is the grandmother

on the Acque side. People loved her. They we've heard very loving things about her, that she was sweet and kind, and she denies that her family is involved. Still, however, Courtney's heard quite the opposite. And I mean, listen, there's two there's two sides to every coin, right, and yes, Frederica did do altruistic things for the community, so that

is true. Also true is that she had quite a bit of land, and so people would rent land and they would say, okay, so by the time and they'd make payments like on a car, the theory being okay, when you pay us the X amount, that house is yours, you own it. Well cut to this happened over and over. She'd pull it out right at the end, Oh you missed a payment or whatever, small thing, and she was stealing back these people's homes. So that's a matter of

fact too. That's not speculation in the land of speculation, though after quite guilty if you found out any kind of scoop. As respond, she says that she still doesn't believe it. And we have called her directly and her family members directly. But one thing was because she was quite vocal Frederica in the press and she has I believe this is a fact. Has not spoken to the press since the Plea deals, but we've spoken a stuff

said to people who are very close with her. She wears that black veil like right out of Central Casting too, you know, she wears a black veil like the Godmother goes to quarter. She looks so docile, like the sweetest little grandmamma you could ever wish for. I Meanwhile, she's allegedly raised up a generation of murderers. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. This has been Crime Con twenty twenty two. Thank you, Thank you, guys,

thank you, thank you. Please email us if you have a question real time. We really do try to listen and respond within the episode, so if something pops up, we were we would like to stay and engaged. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes air every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos,

follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studio. The Piked and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Grieves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, we'd love for you to join us at crime CON's

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