The Matriarch Speaks

Returned to Pike County season four, episode fourteen, the matriarch speaks. It's important to note that George Wagner the fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. In the previous episode, we heard about how law enforcement came to view the Wagners as suspects and the murders of the Rodin, Manly and Gillie families. Before it was suspicion and things weren't

adding up. Yes, Lead investigator Ryan Schierer says that changed about a year after the homicides, when BCI agents matched spent shell casings at the Wagner's home in Peebles. Based on that ballistics, evidence agents used search warrants to take deep dives into mobile devices used by George Wagner, who's on trial for murder his brother Jake, and their parents,

Billy and Angela Wagner. After originally preparing to intercept the Wagners in North Dakota, investigators had to scramble to intercept the family at another Canadian border entry point. The Wagners were house hunting in Alaska. As they returned, agents intercepted them at the Canadian border a year after the murders. Now Wagner is used of helping kill eight members of the Rodent and Gillie families. Investigators detained the Wagners and placed each member of the family in a separate room.

At this time, I believe you indicated that you were going to interview them as suspects instead of your prior contacts with them. Correct. The gig was help. I knew we were looking at them. While the Wagners were in custody. Agencies to laptop and an iPad from their vehicle. Law enforcement also placed listening devices in the Wagner's SUV and bug their phones. Upon cross examination, John Parker from the defense brings up the quality of the audio obtained from

the bug the agents placed in the Wagner's vehicle. There's really nothing useful that came from those listening devices on the vehicles at Paris. I did not work as well as we hoped. Correct, right, there was nothing useful gata on that. Correct. The quality of the audio was less

than desirable. There was nothing useful game Correct. Here's James Pilcher, long time investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve, and now it turns out that was kind of a snap who too, because the road noise drowned out anything they could hear. They really didn't get really much of anything out of that except you know, when everybody came out. They came out one at a time and they sat

there and they didn't talk about anything. Normally, if you're innocent and you're pulled over and all of a sudden you get out of a four out or interview, you're going to be asking your family members what the heck is going on? None of that. Nothing was hurt like that on those recordings. Because of the rush to set up in Montana as opposed to North Dakota. Agents weren't able to videotate the interviews since the bug in the

vehicle did not pick up usable audio. The audio recordings of the interviews at the Canadian border where all the investigators had you interviewed, Jake is correct, Yes, myself and special agent moltered okay. And do you recall how long that interview was across you? Four to six hours? Maybe yes? And Judge we would ask that we'd be allowed to play Jay Zam to the prosecution of Jack's and Judge Dering instructs the jury to leave the room for a

fifteen minute recess. Judge Jarring asked for the prosecution and defense to present their arguments on whether Jake's taped interviews should be played for the court. Just the plain reading of evidence, Rule eight o one says that the co conspirac statment is attributed to the defendant. There's a lot of talk of rule eight o one, but the gist of it is that the defense cannot introduces evidence another co conspirator's testimony during cross only the state is allowed

to do that. That's the whole nature of the co conspiracy. So they all denied it right. That was part of the conspiracy, so he does not get to put it now. Even when Jay testifies, he certainly can uses to cross examine him as a hiring consistent statement. At that point, John Parker argues that Jake's testimony is part of the defense's constitutional right to present a complete defense lie. The

co construtive shame is covering up his ass. We shouldn't have to we if they call Jee he comes into this officer interview, he's probably when it's time to make a ruling. Judge Steering decides he needs to hear more argument. I'm not going to decide ultimately today whether we're going to be able to play that tape in the defense side of the case. I'll decide that tomorrow morning, after I've heard arguments here. You should be ready about eight forty five to go on record and argue that issue,

and then I'll make that decision. They let the jury back into the courtroom and Judge Steering addresses the court, Lady, gentlemen, the court. We're going to have an early day close today. The court has some things to do that do not involve the jury during closes the day early to give the defense and prosecution time to prepare for tomorrow's hearing.

Here again, James Pilcher. So I pretty much shut down the trial for the afternoon, and actually the judge held it under advisement and said I'll rule on it tomorrow. So we're all on pins and needles the next day as to whether or not we're gonna have to sit through six hours of listening to Ryan and Jake talk to each other. News media reports the latest development in the trial the defense trying to play Jake Wagner's first interrogation tape today, but the prosecution said, wait, you can't

do that. We have to enter that as evidence first, And the judge said, show up here tomorrow morning and prepare to argue about it and he'll make a decision then. So that brings us to tomorrow. Will jurors hear Jake Wagner's five hour interrogation tape, Will they hear Angela Wagner's two hour interrogation tape? And how will George the man on trial come up in those tapes? But the next morning,

it's not Jake's interview that makes news. George Wagner the fourth providing an explosive audio recording of his mom, Angela's interrogation by BCI agents. It was perhaps the first time George Whitener the fourth heard his mother's voice in the four years since the family was arrested. Before the jury has brought in Judge during Here's arguments about whether to allow in the audio recording of Jake's interview from when the Wagoners were intercepted at the Canadian border. Prosecutor Angie

Kaneppa lays out her reasons for the objection. Jane made a complete time. There was nothing that was taken from that interview by Specialty tier that informed next investigative steps. So I guess really one question would be for what purposes this being requested to be played. Here's John Parker with the defense. J Ala has pledged experience experiracy. Well, they're Posperiers, all right, series, and even though I didn't get it done, this record will reflect Jase Baffards to

cover us. Finally, Judge Darring makes a ruling, Well, I think I understand the arguments involved, but I'm going to deny the request of defense to play the tape at this time. Here again, James Pilcher. One of the interesting things about this day was the prosecution specifically chooses not to play the tape of the recording they made with George, and there were some questions, Okay, why aren't they playing this to show what he was saying at the time.

As for the strategy of this, we think possibly they're not playing it. So if and when George decides to take the stand, he can't tailor his testimony to what he said at the border. And it's actually part of this argument about Jake as well. Jake's recording and they say that allows him to testify on his own behalf without taking a stand. So that's where that argument comes up, and it turns into another legal battle and it's won.

The prosecution wins with Jake's interview ruled as inadmissible. At this point in the trial, the prosecution calls up their next witness, he Treasure right hand. Can you solemnly swear or a firm that the testimony you're about to give show me the truth, the whole truths. I'm nothing about the truths as you shall answer and to God. BCI Agent Jennifer Commasford has six years experience with the Special

Investigations Unit in Ohio. BCI She wears a polka dot shirt and a blazer with straight brown hair that falls to her shoulders. She has relaxed on the stand. Agent Commasford was one of the agents present for the searches of the Wagner's farm and trailers. She was also on the team of agents that interviewed the Wagoners at the Canadian border. You treated it like a custodial interview. Tell

us what that means. We treated it as a custido interview and that we mirandized Angela Wagner because we treat it as though she was in custody, not free to leave, and that she was being interrogated. So we read her her miranda rights. You're on her this time. I would request to play the recording of Special Agent Thomasford's interview with Angela Wagner at the Montana border. The prosecution cues up the tape of Angela's interview and begins playing it

for the jury. The defendant, George Wagner, stares down at his feet. But the reason why he was obviously okay dealing with all that, all that nobody's going down in Pike County, and that's the reason we came up here. To get away from all that. Okay, okay, tracing the media is all over itself. Have you been following any of that of course, yeah, you know. We just want to get away from down there and talk outside his stale Aisle Pike County. I think it would be best

for everybody. I have some personal questions for you, though. Was the last Oh we love it here again, James Pilcher. This recording of Angela is really significant. First of all, the first time we heard her voice in the courtroom. But second of all, it gives us a sense of their state of mind as they're becoming aware that they're being suspects, are being treated as suspects. Agent Comasford an agent Rick Ward, asked about Angela Wagner's relationship with the

Rodent family. Relationship I had ridings was to Hannah. Hannah and my son Jake were together for five years. Well they marry? Yeah? Okay, um did an? I'm getting married? Yes. They had a waiting planned, everything was planned out for that August that she had everything organized, everything ready, And I love that she wasn't break and she did break, and well it's hurt of course, Jake. She was love with his life where. I mean, my son doesn't take

anything lately. You know, why are you working? You know what I don't know. I know that Hannah was really young when her Jake got together. What's the between the two? Anna was thirteen, my son was seventeen, sixteen and a halfs investigators ask Angela about her relationship with hannahme Rodin. So, your relationship with with Hannah was good. I thought she was a school wrap. But I thought she was a school wrap? How she really was? I mean, no, that's

that she was your dad let her getting a way. Ever, I wish she would give me looks and she would snarl, and she would tell Jacob was being mean. And you know, but that's typical teenagers. Yeah, all typical. Sometimes mother was and ye. The agents bring the conversation back to Jake's reaction to Hannah Rodin dating other people. So, when when Hannah gets your pregnant with the other Yeah, how to make number one with the other boyfriend or boyfriends? And Jake,

Well one, Jake, they would talk to the other boyfriends. Never, actually, Jake, they don't have you ever talked to Charlie Woods? Whenever? They support me. When they were determined who the paternity test showed that Charlie Gilly and not Jake Wagner, was the father of Hannah's second baby. The agents ask if Angela was upset about Hannah Ma getting pregnant by another man who was not Jake, and even she told me she had texted me. When she texted me about being pregnant,

she was afraid I would be upsetting. I was upset. I was upset when she loved Jake. Yeah, here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. One of striking things about this is they began to talk about the fact that Hannah had kind of separated her away from the rest of the family, had gone out and gotten pregnant by another guy. And I really wonder, you know, she says

that that didn't necessarily upset her. Does anybody actually believe that, you know, because I think that it would have been Angela's desire to continue to have controlled, you know, Hannah, you know, because if you have control over Hannah, you have control over the child that she had with Shake. BCI agent record as Angela about Billy Wagner's relationship with Hannah. Me rowdin with Hannah. Oh god, he loved that girl.

He caught her his breath, you know, even I mean, that's why I always hold Chris, I said, Chris, even if they break up, she's still going to be my daughter. Sorry, you're going to have to share. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Well, we know stuff from interviewing close Wagner family friends that they were aware that they were kind of under the lens of law and for and that they were kind

of planning for potentially being interrogated or talked to. And so when we hear these recordings, it's so interesting and fascinating me. I mean, I don't think this is so off the conflict. I think they had a little bit of a script in their heads. You're right. But again, even if they have a script and they have a plan, it's real different when you're separated for the first time

in being asked and questioned by authorities. This is the moment. This, by all accounts, is the moment where authorities collected the most data that would be later used against them. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Agents ask Evangela was ever in Chris Rod and Seniors trailer trailer one time? I don't know. Well, listen, limits four four years ago. I don't like sitting only counting

that this much. Don't care one know, it's his dolts over great, you know, I mean, but no, I don't like dogs. Dogs at least I mean friendly. You don't have to worry about anything like that. No, you you have to. Okay, let's basicing. Uh if he's there, you're okay. Okay, chance is hit bull it love you doll so way as he can be all the home, Okay, Jake, Jake's got me get every times by chance. I mean, I didn't bite his butt off. She was not particularly a

fan of the Rodents. Sounds like I thought they were too messy. I thought, you know, she never went over to Christine or she went over once for the Fourth of July party and it was too smoky and there was too much dog air everywhere. Agents then bring it back to the murders, so we occurs, What were your initial thoughts? What was horrified? Hannah had just been to my house just days before the murders. Angela Wagner says that Hanname Rodin came by to show her new baby

to Jake, George and Angela, Okay, everything cool. Yeah, she was making fun of Jake because he had tried to dye his hair a little darker brown and then turned out more black, and she was was making fun of baby, you know, about his hair and stuff. And no, we were, I mean, everything was fine. Investigators bringing the interview back to the day after the murders, the news like in the morning or you know what, I don't know it was. It was morning, how an the news? And were you

guys together? Yeah, Angela tells the agents she was with Billy at the Peterson Road residence when she heard the news about the Rodents being murdered. What was Jake's response when he is trying when he heard the new you guys all together? He was outsight. Agents ask Angela why

she thinks the trailers on her farm were searched by authorities. Okay, this is the part that we gave him everything they needed and then you know, we get halfway up the road and they're down on our searching the farm and then I'm sorry what they get to our stuff and our framers is ridiculous. All they had done and say, hey we want to search, I'd open the door, you know, search I don't love in the high Angela Wagner is then asked if there was a written custody agreement between

Jake and Hannime Rodin. Now, was there any type of living will or anything like if something were to happen, And this is what we're you know, you have no idea what you have that someone I want to show you here again, James Pilcher. We saw it in how they circled around with Billy, and we saw the same kind of approach. They obviously had the shoe print stuff. They obviously had the receipt, they obviously had the shell casings.

It takes them two to three hours to get to the point where they're presenting that in front of them. The investigator pulls out a document and places it in front of Angela Wagner. They are okay, hey, yeah, I don't remember that. The document appears to be a custody agreement saying that in the event of Hannahme Rodin's death, that custody of her daughter would go to Jake Wagner. It appears to have Hannah's signature on the forum. The

detectives tell Angela they found it in her trailer. This is what we're curious about them, and it was do you know who that is? So your mom will arise, but you didn't know about it. I don't remember it. Okay, here again, Stephanie and Jeff. This is unbelievable to be hearing for the first time. She's speaking so casually, and she's talking so cavalierly about her relationship with the road Ins and Billy's relationship with Hannah May, and it all

sounds kind of cozy. Yeah. We covered in season one of the podcast when Angela Wagner made that public Facebook post right after the murders, calling Hannah May wrote in a daughter to her hoping to catch the monsters who did this, And this interview is like that post on steroids? How do you not crack under the pressure. My biggest takeaway from these recordings is that the Wagner family, at least Angela in this instance, really thought they announce our pool.

The document was notarized by Angela's mother, Rita Newcome. The agents continue to press Angela on the forged custody agreement that they found in her trailer, but we're just trying to figure out, um this this is really interesting to me. It printed out three, three weeks before the work and you said you yeah, okay, I I I. They did have those documents and they were able to clearly show, hey, they're signed here, but they were clearly printed out here

on this day from this website. Blank, How do you explain that there was printed out a week before the murders and yet they've got a date two years before? How do you how do you explain this? So I can't remember I didn't do it. The agents ask if Jake Billy or George Wagner could have done the murders. So I'm asking you, may you think that my son or I'm asking you, okay, can you tell me definitively no, yes, I can. How you definitively know? Because one of my

son would knew that. I said he had nothing against he, he had nothing handsome and even though him and Hannah Brook it wasn't enough for that. Agents show Angela Wagner photos of foot impressions made in blood found at the crime scene. So what we have the time wise, they have a database like we do fendis okay, And what we can do is we can take any shoe tread in the world and I identify the manufacturer in the size. Angela Wagner is then showed a pair of shoes. Don't

ever remember bios for any reason. I remember seeing those. I know, No, I see Dad have some of that. The agents then show Angela a receipt. We have a receipt for those shoes purchased by you. Okay, I purchas, I got them, but I don't. They are in a man's shoes, so they wouldn't wear them. But they wouldn't have used them on those because I threw them away. But so you remember buying them two weeks before, Yes, I purchased them. That I am telling you. They didn't

like them. They wouldn't wear them. You know, they wanted a pair of shoes. They always wear boots. Hook you do. I bought them and they didn't. I don't know about that. The agents show Angela a photo of her coming out of Walmart the day she purchased the shoes. It was caught on security camera in the car. Did you go to did you go with the kids? I mean you look alone in that picture when you went to Walmart

to buy that stuff back in April two thousand and sixty. Okay, you're alone, but I don't know that you're alone getting back in the car. You're not. No, I was not the one. Who are you? Yeah? I know the kids was given sleeping weird than what we would have been in the hardently the name of that, I think I think we were all on the farm that I can remember that one. Okay, two weeks before the homicide, you purchased two pairs of shoes which identically match bloody footprints

in a crime scene. Okay, that's another report from the shoe confirming to match the treads. The database. They pourn up with the shoe tread to verify the match. This is a lab work from the case agents present another lab report to Angelo Agner, and I've done a coole match. There were casinges recovered from several of the crime scenes. Okay, okay, various calibers, Yeah, okay, these identically match these shell casings

in your drove away. Okay, one twos were five from the same gun that killed There's no way Angel exa identical match. There's no way that they were. There's no way. We have everyone in our ballistics lab, every expert, every fire experts review and confirmed is an identical match. You do know We're not the only ones that shot guns that are half making. They're all people down Ever, the time span we've been them, there's been several people down there.

Angel and Casings are a definitive match on a blueprint. And I understand what you're saying on that. I mean, it's a blueprint. When I fire, When I fire my weapon mind issue gun, and it ejects around. Okay, uses somewhere else. That's an identical marriage. James Pilcher. One thing that strikes me in these interviews, in this tape with Angela is how her demeanor changes the minute they show her the stuff about the shoes, the bullets, the shell

case things, all of that. She han't an answer for it, but you can almost see based on her voice change and everything else, and how she starts to be hammering and pawing and hemming and all of that the minute they present that, how it her demeanor changes. She communally gets defensive. Sell a huge, huge moment there, Joseph Scott Morgan. They've lived in a bubble. It's it's very it's protected from everything else from the outside the world. Suddenly you

know that bubble is no longer existent. You understand that somebody has penetrated, and somebody's penetrated that you don't have any control over, and you've been able to control all these other people in this environment, and maybe for the first time, fear sets him. At that moment, you think you've got all the basis covered. You know, you're running

off the wal Mart by shoes. You're just you're doing all this and you're trying to work your logistical magic here, and suddenly somebody's penetrated, and suddenly you realize there's actually somebody that's smarter than you that's in the run. But I love the truth from you. Okay, did something happen? No, I'm not. I'm aware of nothing happens. There's you said, you're you told me ten minutes ago. You're definitively sure.

I am definitive. There's there's too much definitive after all this, all that we have, casings of us, we have the same there will use it to pracy that will shot at your house. We have shoes. I guess the bottom line is we have all this. You can understand how this appears? Yes, I see, And this is if you're gonna have any chance to talk with us about what happened. What knowledge you have is now Angelia and not being a I can tell why the way you're talking. Okay, Well,

I'm just just I'm gonna shop. I'm just gonna stop. Well, I don't no, I'm just I'm just gonna stop right here, and you I can give that hern That's what I'm going to do because I don't know. I'm just going to say more. Agents stop the interview and the recording. Here's James Pilcher, followed by Joseph Scott Morgan. I mean you could see it right as soon as they started presenting her the hard evidence, she clammed up. She's like,

I need a lawyer. Suddenly, all of that planning that she's done to purchasing the controlling of everybody, suddenly that's becoming unraveled. She knows she at least has enough of a survival instinct about her at that point in time. She knows that she needs to reach out her counsel, and I mean quick, because the thing is spinning in a flat spin and it's gonna it's gonna turn out poorly. Forward, let's stop here for another break. After hearing the interview

with Angelo Wagner and its entirety. John Parker with the defense, gets up for cross examination. He asks Agent Thomasford about Angelo Wagner's home in Bethel Hill, where she lived with her family for a time. Were you aware that she was involved as a fraudulent arsons? I recall some limited information about their being arson, He claims. Did you know that one of the houses that burned down that she had built out a marijuana grow room in the basement

in her direction? I don't know that I was aware of that at Buffalhill, now all right? Were you aware of her dog breeding business, that she fraudently represented the dogs with pure bread when they were not No, I was not aware of that. Now, and Angela told you that Jake was devastated at the news of Hannah's death. Yes, she did say that, and you later learned that Jake is actually one of the shot hand and killed her. You learned fair to say, Angels have been very deceitful

about many things. I would say that she's been deceitful about things. Yes. At that point, you know, the defense goes to the BCI agent who conducted the interview, asking her, Hey, did you ask her about the dog breeding business? Did you ask her about the Arsons. Did you ask about

the marijuana business? They said, no, we were trying to solve the murder, but they were I think trying to sow seeds of doubt about the effectiveness of the investigation, or at least the effectiveness of the questions that they asked. She asks Agent Commisford if any members of the Wagner family had concerns about the Rodents having custody of the child that Jake and Hannah shared. My understanding is there were concerns on the part of the Wagner family that

would become under the custody of the Rodent family. So did you know which of the Wagners had those concerns, specifically Angela, Jake, George, and Billy. They're building to this conspiracy that it wasn't just a couple of people, it was the entire family. And this family is such that if one person knows it, all four of them know it. So they're still building to this. They're driving to Alaska, six of them with two little kids in one car,

across country, thousands of miles together. How would they be able to be that close and share their findings and all of that, and yet not know about killing eight people and planning to kill eight people and building the guns to kill eight people and all of that. Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa redirects. You were asked it appeared that Angela Wagner was alone when she was in the store purchasing those shoes, and your response was what it was

my understanding inside the store that she was alone. Yes, when she was outside of the store was alone. And when you based out video evidence, Okay, specifically she went into the back of that vehicle, yes, correct, So who was with Angelo Adner when she bought the shoes at Walmart? More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie

Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Andrew ar Now a Real Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis. Music by Jared Aston. The Piked in Masacre is a production of iHeartRadio and Kati Studios. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.