He spent a lot of time by himself, isolated and online.
Elliott Rogers, he was good looking, and smart and interesting, he had a good personality and all of these things, and yet he couldn't get a date. And he decided at some point to blaming all women for his problems.
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode seven, The in Cell Theory Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. On July twenty third, twenty twenty five, Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life sentences for the brutal murders of Madison Mogan, Killy Gonsalvez, Xana Kernodle, and eth Than Shapin. For many, his guilty plea felt like a long awaited end to a nightmare
chapter in Moscow, Idaho. But for others the closure was bittersweet. They still carry unanswered questions and anger. One of the most striking omissions was that Brian Coberger was never required to explain himself. Prosecutor Bill Thompson did not demand an allocution, meaning Coburger never stood in court and stated why he committed these unspeakable crimes. He offered no insight, no apology, and no explanation. And so the question of why still
looms large. What could have driven him to do something so heinous? What was the motive? One theory that is circulated is that Brian Coberger may have been an insult an involuntary celibate, that someone who feels rejected, especially by women, and and who sometimes channels that rejection into rage and violence. Could Coberger have targeted one of the young women he murdered because of this mindset? Is there real weight to this theory or is it a label that's too easily applied?
And perhaps the biggest question of all, what does it actually mean to be an in cel? Dell bunpack these questions. We turned to sociologist doctor Michael Kimmel. He's a leading expert on men's studies and masculinities. He joins us to explain what the in cell community is, what it isn't, and how it fits into the larger conversation around Brian Coberger. He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
If you can just tell me a little bit about your career and your background.
How did you find kind of your niche in gender studies?
Well, my PhD is in sociology, and I was a sociology professor for many years, and swirling around the academy was you know, feminism was women's studies, and it was just, you know, it was too compelling and too important, I think to ignore. Then I realized early on that there really weren't very good studies research done on men as men.
You know, there was a lot of stuff happening for people which by which they interviewed men, and then there were work on women, but there wasn't anything that really addressed masculinity or gender and how it affected men. So in early nineteen ninety I decided I was going to write a history of the idea of masculinity in America, which had never been written. That was my first book,
Man Who in America? And then from then I've worked on young men ages sixteen to twenty six in a book called Guyland, And most recently my work has been on what I called angry white men. Why are white men so angry? Why are they so resentful? Why do they feel like they're such victims? My book angry white Men came out in twenty thirteen, and the word in cell hadn't been invented it.
What is the manosphere for people who don't know or never heard of it before?
Can you tell me exactly what that is?
Well, the manosphere is a general term for that part of the Internet that has been appropriated by and colonized by a large number of men who use it as a platform for exploring some things that are you know, good things like how do you be a good father? To a place where they can air their grievances about their own victimization. The manosphere tends to be very white, somewhat middle and working class, and it tends to be
on the whole angry. Now the manosphere in general begins, I think the real the beginning of the manosphere as a place where men will come to air these kinds of grievances begin with what was called gamergate in the mid to late nineteen nineties. And Gamergate was basically an effort by young male gamers to keep women out of the gaming environment because there were suddenly all of these
multiplayer games. They were these online games, people were gaming live, and the guys thought that this was like part of their life. And when all these girls started, you know, becoming gamers, they really resented it. They felt it was like an invasion of their space. So the Man of Sphere was an attempt to sort of say, Okay, we're gonna build border boundaries. What the word in cell stands for?
Involuntary celibacy in cell, and it means that you haven't had a date, you haven't had sex in perhaps a long time or ever. And that's not by your choice. It's not like you're saving it for marriage. It's not like you are waiting for miss right. You want to get laid and you can't. Now, whose fault is that? When you listen to guys who claim to be in cells, it's not their fault, it's the fault of women.
Here.
You have all these women, thanks to feminism, thanks to women's liberation, all these girls wearing really tight clothes, really hot, really beautiful, throwing it out there and just inviting you to come on to them, and then they turn you down. Whose fault is that? It's their fault? Because you see, men don't see. So the involuntary celibacy is I want, I'm not getting Whose fault is that and they blame the women. Women are you know, sexually aegentic. They have
their own voice, they know what they want. They just don't want it with me, and clearly that's their fault. I'm plenty nice, good looking, I dress well, I'm trying really hard, you know, and they still turn me down. What's wrong with them? Now? Once upon a time you would answer that question not with what's wrong with them,
but what's wrong with me? One of the great things about the Internet is it provides instant community for people who feel isolated, lonely, etc. And so you might have been, you know, just sat in your bedroom and you know, be grumpy. But with the Internet, there are other guys going, yeah, I get you, bro, I completely understand man, I know what you're feeling. That that happened to me too, and you have a bond. You have a community of self perceived victims.
One of the most persistent questions that has surfaced is whether or not Brian Koeberger could have been an inceel. Does his background and behavior fit the profile of someone drawn to this community, and if so, what would that mean about his mindset, his motivations, and the way he saw the world. To help us break this down here Stephanie Leidecker, joined by crime analyst Body Movin.
We know that he belittled women. He treated female students worse than male students. He called one woman a bitch at Seven Sirens Brewing Company after she rejected his advances, and if I remember correctly, he got booted from that bar for that.
We don't know of him having many girlfriends. We also know that in high school there were reports made on him from fellow female students basically saying that they were uncomfortable in some way. And again we've tried to find more information about that. Those files are sealed, and respectfully we move on. But look, this is somebody who tracks. He was spending a ton of time online for an
extended period of time, obviously COVID adding to this. But here he goes off to university and again seems to have a chip on his shoulders when it comes to actually dealing with any women at any time.
Specifically, the Idaho State Police reports about his interactions with female students at WSU, he was dismissive. He'd said things like he wouldn't date broken women, and.
To that end, once he had gotten too university where
he was studying to become a criminology doctor. He was getting his PhD in criminology, and during that time, students reported, specifically female students reported that they did not even want to go to office hours to deal with him on any level because they felt frankly unsafe, even so far as to say they would walk to their cars accompanied by somebody because they were afraid Brian Coburger might start walking out with them and they wouldn't know how to
get rid of them. Listen, he lacked social cues. We can cough that up to a lot of things.
Either.
He was just always the odd kid who was bullied and left out of the club and learned to resent that because look, ultimately, Brian Coberger, by his own admission, killed four extremely loved and popular students who seemingly had it all. They had fun lives, they had many friends, they were going big places, and Brian Coburger didn't like it. There doesn't seem to be any real known connection between
the Idaho massacre victims and Brian Coburger. Their light was so bright that he had to dim it himself.
Like I said before, he in talking with that other female WSU student she said that he said he would not date broke it women.
He idolized women.
That he held in beautiful standards, right, like the Kayley's and the Maddies and the Zanas of this world, who are literally beautiful, right, wouldn't if there was some kind of defect with you, he didn't want a thing to do with you. Right, That's kind of the impression I got from reading those ISP reports. And that's very in cell white, Okay. And he would say things like what did he say about procreation?
Like whether there was that handicapped girl, that there was somebody who was handicapped, you know, air quote, or somebody who was disabled, and he straight up asked, would you even consider pro creating because your condition?
And just think about that? Who says that out loud?
And we know now that many reports were made against him and that he gave people a really bad feeling. And I think that's the takeaway Number one. We know for a fact that Brian Coberger, who seemingly was obsessed with the notion of crime, he was literally studying what he has now been convicted of, but he didn't see to get on with women. He spent a lot of time by himself isolated and online. And that's I think the important piece of this. One person could be both
things at the exact same time. Somebody could present very smart and articulate and clever, as he must have, and then on the flip of that, you know full well that there is hate brewing within him, and that hate turned to murder. And the reason that we're even discussing this is that we need to better understand where this dark web can take you and how a person can actually be radicalized.
Yeah, and you know, the definition of in cells is involuntarily sulibate, and I do believe that Brian Coberger was involuntarily sulibate. Okay, so by definition alone, he is an inceel. But the in cells that we're talking about congregate online and they talk to one another and they get deeper and deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole of self
loathing and self pity. And I just don't see Brian Koberger being online, being able to effectively communicate with other people, and being radicalized in that manner.
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. Just because Brian Coberger may not have been radicalized online doesn't mean he couldn't have picked up this information about in cells.
Elsewhere was Brian Coberger's brutal murder of four college roommates inspired by this monster.
Oll slaughter every single spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut.
Elliott Roger murdered six University of California Santa Barbara students in twenty fourteen with his arsenal of knives, pistols, and his car as a weapon. Twenty two year old Roger was an in cell, an involuntary celibate, and as scene as an icon by other cells.
You never showed me any mercy, and so I will show you none.
Coberger studied Rogers' rampage for his criminology course at the Sales University in Pennsylvania.
Here again, sociologist and masculinities expert, doctor Michael Kimmel.
Elliott Rogers is sort of a touchstone figure among in cells. He felt like he had done everything right. He was good looking and smart and interesting, and he had a good personality and all of these things, and yet he couldn't get a date, and he began to blame women. He went down that kind of very very dark path to blaming all women for his problems, and he decided at some point that he was either going to have to kill himself and take as many of them with
him as he could. His suicide note was all filled with his entitlement, like you don't give me what I want kind of stuff. But he didn't call himself an insul. He was just angry. He took it out on women. He blamed women, But in cell culture embraced him as a kind of Oh that's you know, he did what we all think about, right, And what he thought of what he did was he got even. That's I think a key here is that in cel there may be a motive in some cases to get even. I don't
just you know, get mad. I get even they hurt me, I will hurt them.
At the Sales University, Brian Coberger and his classmates study the case of Elliott Roger. Roger is the twenty two year old who in twenty fourteen murdered six people and injured dozens more near UC Santa Barbara. Some classmates remember Coburger seeming strangely indifferent to the horror of the rampage. Roger was later embraced by the in cell community and That connection has led some to question whether Coberger's studies of Roger may have played a role in his own crimes.
Here again, Stephanie Leideker in crime analyst Body movin to break this down.
Brian Coburger participated in learning about Elliott Roger, and by some accounts, he seemed extremely unphased. So does that mean he was discounting this in cell ideology or was it just something embedded in him and he didn't give it too much thought. We do know that Brian Coberger had a hard time meeting girls, had multiple women file reports against him, both in high school and at university.
This seems to be a pattern in the in cell community.
I do know they claimed Elliott Roger, so he is their hero. He is their saint, you know, Saint Elliot, et cetera, et cetera. His his manifesto included ideologies that he agreed with. But we don't know if Coburger was actually inspired by Elliott Rodgers, if he followed them closely even after learning about him at the sales. Just because he seemed like unphased by his crimes doesn't really prove anything. We don't know if he was on any insull websites like four chan, or like incel I or any of
those radicalization pipeline websites. So even though it's an interesting theory that he could have been inspired by insel idol Elliott Rodgers, we just don't have any concrete proof.
I mean, listen, it's in the conversation Brian Coberger his arrest, this lone wolf. Why would he possibly want to hurt the lives of people who had so much ahead of them because he was radicalized potentially online. Now again that's
wildly debated. We are not labeling him an inceel, but that conversation only continued further once he was arrested in awaiting trial, once he confessed, and he didn't even have to allocate, We're left kind of putting our hands in the air, not knowing the final outcome.
We as sociologist and masculinities expert doctor Michael Kimmel for his thoughts on whether Brian Coberger could be considered an in cell and whether the in cell community might claim him much like they did with Elliott Roger. He's joined by KAT Studio's producer Alison Bankston.
A lot of people have suspected he could be an inceell.
You know, he didn't have to when he pled guilty, he didn't have to give an allocution. So people may never know why he did what he did and were forced to kind of come up with theories about what his motive could be. And he was known to be a sexist. A lot of people think why target for innocent people he had no connection to. You know, a lot of people are thinking he had to be an insul that's why he killed these people, because it doesn't
make sense. You know, why else would it make sense that he'd target four innocent people, you know, a really popular guy and then three beautiful girls. What do you make of this theory that you know, Brian Coberger could have been an in cell? How do you respond to this theory that's kind of been floating around for the past few years.
It could have nothing to do with being an insult or, it could have everything to do with it. We don't know, and in the absence of any kind of information from him, I take to develop a kind of theory about it. And there's no evidence that he ever visited any of their websites, participated in any of their jack rooms, none. Whatever my feeling about this is that is that within the culture. Now, let's be really clear about this. Ninety nine percent of people who might consider themselves in cells
never act on it around women. They go to these places in the manosphere in some ways, I'll put this in quotation marks harmlessly to seek support and comradeship and community with others. But it's they're not going to act on it. And I don't think there's any reason to suspect that Brian Koberger acted on those feelings for those reasons.
Do you think in cells will try to claim Brian Coberger like they did with Elliott Rodgers? They see this guy who is sexist. Reports a come out that he treated women horribly, that he had a hard time getting a girlfriend, that he just kind of seemed like that in cell type, you know, reclusive, frustrated with women, created his female students much harder than male students. Just all
kinds of reports like this. Do you think that the in cell community could see Brian Colberger as their next Elliott Rodgers?
Or if I were part of the in cell community, I would be very wary of people assuming that he was an insult just because he was a man and he killed women. And he killed young attractive women. It wasn't just that he killed women, you know, randomly, So I don't know. I think I would be Remember that the overwhelming majority of in cels, people who would even describe themselves as in cels, would never even remotely think of acting on it like that, never, you know, would
not cross their mind. They're very content to be in their internet, in their online community, you know, talking to each other, supporting each other, and basically and supporting each other with this misguided idea that it's women's fault. But so if I were in the in cell community, I would not claim him, especially in the absence of any evidence that he was one of us. And secondly, I wouldn't want him to be imposed on us simply because he was a guy who killed women. So I would
be very wary of it. I don't think that they're going to embrace him the way that Elliott Roger was very clear, very you know, very descriptive about is who he blamed and.
Why and how can we stop in cells? How can we intervene before someone decides to join a community like this. Can people who see someone who they think, you know, could adapt to these ideologies how can they jump in and stop them from joining this community.
Well, there's some data that connects a lot of these different issues because one of the things that psychologists have found that basically courages resilience among young people is especially this is for young men. What would predict their resilience, what would predict their ability to navigate these kinds of lows in their lives? This the depression, unhappiness, this loneliness,
this feeling like you're not getting what you want. And two of the things that they that they suggest one is a good male friend, not a bro, but a friend, someone you can talk to about your feeling someone you can talk to who validates you that you you know, you know, I get you, bro, you're still you know you're you're really a man and it's okay, it's you'll be fine, it'll happen. And also a good female friend.
I would be willing to suggest that large numbers of in cels have very few female friends who they can really talk to about their feelings. The world that they live in is largely a fantasy about what women's lives are like, that all these women are so hot and they're so sexy, and they're so available, but just not for me. I think that's pretty much a fantasy. And they don't really get to know girls as friends and
and other guys as real friends. So real contact, real friendship may be a one of the therapeutic antidote to the kind of despair and loneliness that many in cells feel.
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. Here again. Stephanie Leiedeger and crime analyst Body Movin.
I've talked about this a lot.
I've talked about why we continue to look for explanations and the behavior of Brian Coberger because I believe it's too scary to face reality. And the reality is, he's the literal boogeyman. Okay, we can't control him, we can't put him in a category.
Right.
If we can put him in a category like say Incel, then we can explain it and we can monitor that and we can stay on top of it and stay safe. Right, Brian Coberger isn't fitting any of these categories we're trying to put him in, and that's scary. He's the literal boogeyman. It's so true.
And by the way, without having this conversation in a meaningful way. We don't know what to look for and how to prevent another Elliott Roger or another Brian Coburger from causing mass destruction. Yet again, and listen, not all white men are murderers in.
Serial killers, obviously.
However, the in cell community is really it's the young white man who's spending way too much time online and they're getting radicalized online without anybody knowing. Coburger sure does check a lout of the right boxes, and yeah, for sure there are some that he does not, But again we have to be looking at what could be a very scary reality. The new Boogeyman is the young, disenfranchised white boy living at home with add a job, with too much time on his hands. The question of whether
Brian Coberger was an in cel still looms large. Some believe his treatment of women and his obsession with power and control fit the pattern, Yet without any direct evidence that he identified with the community, were left with a haunting void, still wondering why he committed the brutal murders of Madison, Mogen, Callie Gonzalvez, Xanna Kern, and Ethan Chapin.
To learn more about the in cell movement, check out our new podcast in Cells on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and join us next week, when Idaho State Police Detective Hugh Powell shares an inside look at what it was like to investigate one of the most shocking mass murders in recent memory. More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Tooi music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacre is a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.