Relevancy

a murder investigation and leaving you under the bus. You know a lot of times in this case, it feels like they're doing more to convict Jake and Angela than they are George. We've are in custody of his son. What did he want you teach? You get custody? This is The Pipes and Massacre Season four, episode sixteen Relevancy. I'm Courtney Armshan, the television producer at Katie Studios with

Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. We're picking up after last episode's testimony from Chris Newcomb, Angela Wagner's half brother and uncle to George and Jake Wagner. On the stand now is Chris Newcomb's partner, Miranda Hughes. She opted out of video recording, but allowed audio recording of her testimony. It's important to note that George Wagner the fourth has pleaded not guilty on accounts ass as his father Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming. Thank you. Christ would call Randa Hughes,

good morning. How are you nervous? You get that a lot from that chair. Miranda opted out of being videotaped, but allowed her verbal testimony to be recorded. Randa echoed much of Chris Newcomb's testimony about Jake and George Wagner's disconcerting die job. Were there any conversations about that at that time when you saw them with their hair dyed? Yes? And what was that? Well that? Why did they do it? And Jake said he wanted to look like I think

it's name Norman reads. Norman readers, Yeah, I told him he was far from that. But both JP and George had their hair come yes, okay? And did you know who dyed their hair? Angela? And after the homicides, did that fact that they had dyed their hair cause you to think something? Yes? Okay? And what was that? Made me worry? Why? Because why would you change your parents? And then something like that happened. Randa also backed up

Chris's claims about George's desire for a clock pistol. Was there ever a time weird you were present for hoping to obtain a forty caliber clock for George? Ye? Sure? Okay, Well I'm an overly objection. Do you answer stand leading questions? Can you tell us about that? Yeah? He asked Chris if he knew of anybody that had a glock? Had Chris said that he didn't know of anybody at the moment, but that he could look for him. And when Chris found one, I think George wanted it. So we met

up with the guy. But George wanted us to go because Chris had been the one talking to him. Okay, And did you accompany Chris? Yes? Okay? And do you remember where you met up with this individual? I don't know exactly where. I just knew it was a park and ride. Randa also made some revealing statements about how George and Jake asked her and Chris ncam to secure custody of their kids in case they went to prison after the Wagoners were charged in these offenses. Did they

want you and Chris to do certain things? Yes, regarding custody of his son. What did he want you to do? Get custody? Get custody? Okay? And how do you know that because I asked? Okay, Well, George asked. Okay, George asked, and did anybody else ask you? Yes? Who else? Angela and Jake? Okay, they all three asked you, guys to try to get custody of yes, correct, And did you get an attorney to do that? Yes? But once the Wagoners were arrested, Chris and Randa abandoned their custody efforts.

Here's Stephanie and Jeff. This is the very first time I'm personally hearing that George and Angela and Jake wanted Chris and Randa to be the guardians of the children. And of course, you know, if you're getting arrested and going away from murder, you would want your close family member to have custody of your child. But you know, at least one of the children George's in this case

had a mom who could have raised him. That being said, though, George had told Chris and Randa that he wanted them to have custody, and they were apparently pushing for that until they actually met Tabby and realized that she was not who George had made her out to be. She was actually a good mom and a nice person, and

George's son had a nice life with her. So they dropped any efforts to get custody of the children after Jake, George, and Angela and Billy were finally arrested, and for whatever reason, the Wagners believed that they were the only people who could raise their children and the only people that should be raising their children. But it seems like ultimately Chris and Randa disagreed, and I still don't think we're getting the full explanation as to why that is, other than

that the Wagoners simply wanted to control these children. Forensic investigator Joseph Scott Morgan sheds late on the place of Randy Hughes's testimony in the trial. With Hughes, you know, she kind of had an insight into their world that not many other people had. I think, you know, you kind of get to to peek under the covers a

little bit with her. You got to see kind of some of the insights as it applied to custody issues and kids, and you know, that was the big thing you know, because that goes to motive, I think, and we have to understand that. I think a lot of people are mistaken when they think about prosecution. Prosecution does not have proved motives. That's not what the purpose of this is. However, it does go to getting a feel for what family dynamic was like of the familial environment.

I think that's that's very significant, and you know, it's thrilled as we get about hearing people talk about forensics and getting down into the nuts and bolts of things. I don't think that it is as significant as you know, being able to get an peak into this world. In his cross defense, attorney Richard Nash tried to pin the fascination with The Walking Dead on Jake. He was the one who modeled his killings after the show's lead character, not George the man on child. And there was some

discussion speaking of hair color. Jake had told you that I think he wanted to look like Norman reads. Yes, and Norman Redis is he the main character in the Walking Day He's kind of one of the main characters of The Walking Dead. Yes, and Jake had a fascination with Norman. Yes, Okay, I saw you really give me a positive response to that. And you've watched The Walking Dead, Yes, I have, and so your familiarity with the movie. Yeah,

how they shoot him in the head. The jury also heard about the tattoos that Billy, George, and Jake got after the murders. Jake got one of flaming pistols on his upper arms. Billy and George's were a bit more problematic again, and Geanette after the homicides, you know, about a month and a half later or so, June to twenty seventeen, he and Jake and George went in they got tattoos. Billy's tattoo is a scorpion with eight notches on it, and the prosecution thinks that that holds some significance.

We have eight victims in this case, and a scorpion, which can be fatal is on his right finger, which could be his trigger finger if he's right handed, and he's got this tattoo with you know, signifying something that can be deadly on his hand. George, on the other hand, has something that's an eight ball inside a skeleton's mouth with some aces on the sides playing cards. Aces. I'm not you know, I don't know if it's a coincidence.

I don't. Obviously, the prosecution feels like it's significant and it's relevant that the number eight is common in these tattoos. A scorpion with eight abdominal segments, a skull binding down on an eight ball eight mode instead. Some people see the correlation. Others wonder why it's admissible. It's kind of strange because we, I guess the judge is letting the jury look at this and see if it's relevant. I mean, it's up to the jury to determine whether or not

the tattoos are relevant. I'm not sure, you know, I could see the scorpion being relevant, possibly the eight ball in the skeleton's mouth. I think we just have to wait to see how the testimony plays out. Joseph Morgan is more dubious. I would have said that years ago the tattoos may have carried more weight. I think I'm recalling them my mind, you know, uh, you know, being for instance, in the Morgue, I remember a couple of cases where I had people who were legitimately folks that

had worked as assassins in prison. They wanted up dying when they finally get on the outside, and they have the tear drop tattoos. You know, you always knew that point somebody that had committed a homicide, you had to chepot crosses on the hands that you know, there's little crosses with the little radiating lines that you know you can tell somebody's a drug dealer or an arm stealer, or they're an assassin. They used to tell these tales. But you know the problem is people use tattoos now

to try to create an image for themselves. Maybe you can get a tattoo expert to pop up on stand and say, oh, yeah, based on the structure of this thing, this is generally associated with people that are, you know, involved in this type of behavior, particularly if you're talking about gangs and whatnot. But you know, you can say that all day long. I mean, I've seen some pretty horrific things. Images of these tattoos that people walk around

in public with I don't make a killer. It just means that they've got an interest in this interesting art that they're willing to put on their body in display to the rest of the world. But that doesn't make you a perpetrator in a homicide. The jury also heard heart stirring testimony from Rita Newcombe, Angela Wagner's mother and Jake and George's grandmother. Nwcombe declined video or audio recording

of her testimony. Petite with Dirty blondeire Nucomb is a devout Christian who wrestled with her daughter's actions after the murders Stephanie and Jeff. Rita wasn't tears when she testified about how she initially lied to investigators to protect her daughter and quote her grand babies, but then she soon came clean because of her faith in God, and of

course once the Wagners became actual suspects steph. What I find interesting is that Rita Newcome falsely told agents with the Ohio BCI that she had signed these custody documents involving George and Jake's children as a notary public. Rita basically testified in court saying that Angela said to her, look, mom, if you don't admit this, they're going to really hurt

me and possibly even kill me. And that's a brutal spot to be And can you imagine your daughter is basically begging you not to turn her in, and then you come to find out that she's essentially bringing you into a murder investigation and leaving you under the bus. She continues to describe the worst days of her life were the eight days that she spent behind bars again. Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, I think that Rita being

in the midst of this just tautanic storm. There's part of me, if you can, if anybody can, feel kind of sorry for anybody that's been associated with with these horrible deeds. I think that, you know, I would list probably more toward Rita newcom in this um. You know, she's involved in this with her child. She's born witness to everything Angela has ever been involved in. I think that most parents will try to do anything that they

possibly could in order to help their child. I think early on that people assume that this was a broad ranging conspiracy, and immediately they associated Rita with it, that she was part and parcel. They almost had her sitting at the kitchen table. Now, I just I just don't see that that that was the case, you know, relative

to to to these homicides. And if we are to believe that that Angela is the controlling person, you know, this manipulative, you know, kind of Sungali like character that you know has sway over the entire family and how things are going to be done if Angela is that person. Did Rita perceive her daughter has maybe potentially you know, going to do harm to her, or she would have money do harm to her, And that's what makes that all the mores. We're going to take a break. We'll

be back in a moment. Rita Newcomb spoke extensively about her family's legacy of abuse again long Crimes Angeanette Levy. Rita Newcomb is somebody we've known about since the arrests were made in this case back in November of twenty eighteen, and Rita is Angela Wagner's mother. She claimed that Angela told her that, you know, if you don't, if you don't do this, they're going to hurt me. We never got a clarification on who they are that she said, they will hurt me if you don't say you did this.

She also talked about how you know, she had been married to Angela's father of course at Carter and he was abusive to both of them, I mean physically abusive, and Angela had actually gone into the Air Force at eighteen. She wanted to get away from you or bad and this whole thing. And we found out that Angela left the Air Force early allegedly because she was sexually assaulted

and it was never investigated or reported. According to Rita, I find it interesting given the fact that the motive for these murders allegedly was protecting and the spear that the little girl might be molested. So it makes you wonder, is that were this concern about sexual assault or sexual abuse where it originated was with Angela's time in the Air Force. So I guess we'll find out as the case progresses. But she talked about not liking Billy Wagner.

I would think that seeing a woman who's seventy plus us sitting up there crying and reliving this and admitting to lying for her daughter. But I would think the jury would take that very seriously. But again, this is George's trial, not Angela's trial. But still it paints a picture. You know, it seems like Angelo Wagner has just been painted as the ultimate villain in this story. In this trial, I mean, nobody, nobody says anything nice about Angelo Wagner

in this case. The jury also heard from two PCI forensics experts, one with Special Agent Brian White, who searched the Wagner's property in June of twenty seventeen. He's now a lieutenant with the Madison County Sheriff's Office in Central Ohio. Special Prosecutor Andrew Wilson questioned him on the stand and who's altu to swear a reform as the testimony were about to get the trus the whole tings and nothing about Thank you Anna a nice loud voice. Can you

introduce yourself again to the journey. My name is Brian White. I'm a lieutenant with the Masson County share selves. When you were out there searching that area of two sixty Peon Road June fourteenth, June fifteenth, twenty seventeen, did ultimately you find pieces of evidence that you collected and took it into customer, Yes we did. And Une fourteenth, June fifteenth during that search, did you also have Matt White

out there with you, who was from the lab. Yes, we did, and explain what his role was or what he did that day whatever. If we would find something that was firearms related through shifting, whether it be a casing or bullet or whatever, Matt would take a look at it, and then he would put it in. He would basically separate him out and to different characteristics or calibers or whatever. Okay, I'm gonna hand you what's been marked for didification purposes. I stick to give it SS five.

Can you tell us what's in? I stick to give it SS five. That's a fire cartridge case two two three caliber collected June fourteenth and fifteen, twenty seventeen, two sixty Peterson Road. It's got my name on it, my initials. And again, is there a two two three firearm listed on A two? Yes, there's the Wagner's two sixty Peterson Road property, which was owned by Jake is thirteen miles

from where the roads were executed. It was at this location that White recovered twenty two caliber shell case things that matched the ones found at the crime scene. The Wagners were in Alaska at this time. On the Peterson Road property, a second barn was mid construction, possibly the bc I suspected to cover up evidence again and Ginette in June to twenty seventeen BCI. This was after the Wagners had moved to Alaska. Went back to the Peterson

Road property where the Wagners had lived. They had sold it in May of twenty seventeen, a month prior, and Brian White, it was like the lead crime scene agent on this case, and he said that they went back there with ground penetrating radar, just looking to see if there was anything buried underneath there, under the ground of evidentiary value. I mean, at this point in time, they

were still looking for murder weapons. The lead BCI agent, Ryan Scheier, said there was a new barn that was being built and constructed on the Peterson Road property at the time of the homicides. Really, I mean part of the barn had been erected and it was under construction at the time of the homicides. And after the homicides, and so BCI had gotten the new owners to tech and talk with Jake about this, which stimulated some conversation, if you would about it. It got George to call Angela.

They discussed it, and Angela was very concerned about which barn they were searching, you know, which barne She kept asking, So they were concerned about the property being searched. And George sounded like he was the one in charge, like he was the go between, you know, asking Jake. You know, hey, Jake, which Barne is it? Cause Angela wanted to know which barn So it sounded like George was very much the boss, and in that conversation at least BCI criminal intelligence analyst

Julia Evislage also took the stand. She intercepted the Wagner's cell phone conversations and also monitored their social media activity. The Wagoners and the Rodents had volleyed Facebook blocks back and forth, revealing potential grudges, focusing on Hannah Rodin's Facebook and as previously mentioned, she was not currently friends with Jake Wagner. From prior posts or messaging, they were at one point friends, but they weren't at the time of

the return. She had blocked George Wagner's profile and Angela had blocked Hannah Rodin's. There was an assortment of relationships between Tabitha's profiles, as there are a number of them, but Hannah Rodin and Tabitha's most recent account we're friends at the time of the return, but in a world where people block each other routinely online, it's hard to know how much weight to give someone pressing a button

on Facebook. And Jeanette I guess if there's some big feud going on and the families are warring with one another, of course you would have somebody blocked. Or maybe you just block somebody because you don't want them snooping on your Facebook, or maybe you just don't want that person

in your business. I don't know. I thought it was strange that George, who claimed Frankie was a good friend, or at least his attorneys have claimed that Frankie was a good friend, that he had had Frankie blocked, He had Hannah May blocked. You know, all these different people had each other blocked. Is it indicative of somebody carrying out out a homicide? I guess it could be, But as far as like who who did what, or who planned and covered up, I mean, I'm not sure it's

that relevant. Julia e. A Slage also played the court of fascinating intercept of George Wagner on the family's journey to Alaska. I thought Julia of A Slage's testimony was interesting. When we got to hear George Wagner. You know, it was really the first time we'd or one of the first times, I should say that we heard his voice

and we heard that he can become quite agitated. It was after the family had been stopped at the border in Montana and interrogated, and he was putting his son in the car, and he was telling his little boy, who was a toddler at this time, those people back there that fed you and played with you there liars. They're bad people. They want to kill us. And the little boy was saying no, no, no, you know, and things like that. And I'm just sinking to myself as

I'm listening to this. This is a grown man talking to his child who's a toddler and telling this child that the people they just saw at the border were trying to kill them. And I just found that to be so strange and unbelievable. I couldn't believe that someone would talk to a toddler like that. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. As the round of testimony wrapped up, some observers thought there was still an underwhelming amount of evidence against George Wagner.

You know, a lot of times in this case, it feels like they're doing more to convict Jake and Angela than they are Orge. No granted, George is not the main player in this case. The jury really just has to determine whether there's enough evidence to show that George was part of a conspiracy to commit and cover up murders. Eight murders. So that's really what they have to prove. Yeah,

we all want to know, like the details. The only thing I can see is that they somehow had it in their minds and it almost seemed like a circular thing that they were all feeding off each other, thinking they were the only ones who could raise these kids in the way they wanted them raised, whatever way that was. I mean, it just sounds like it was a very insular life with a lot of yelling too. More on

that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Maskers produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Wieter, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tua, Music by Jared Aston. The Piked in Masaker is a production of iHeartRadio and

Kati Studios. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.