Mother May I?

is not right. Was this truly about custody. I don't think he would kill her, but I think he would kill more her. Now, with childs on the horizon, new theories arise. There's like a good four or five places at Burndale. We're told he's lying because they're getting death threats behind bars. I would sit to the jail house in Pike County, good book, money on their book, So it's not years ay for me. Why are we just learning about this now? This is one of the biggest

pieces of physical evidence that we've had thus for. Just when we thought it couldn't get any stranger or darker, it has. This is the Pikes And Massacre, Season three, Episode one. Mother May I officers wearing body armor guarded Angela Wagner as she walked into a Pike County courtroom to admit, after years of denials, that she helped plan

the murders of Hannah Roden and her family. On the warm and heavily humid afternoon of September tenth, twenty twenty one, in Pike County, Ohio, accused killer mother Angela Wagner, arrived in court. She was wearing black and white striped prison garb, and her hair, previously short and blonde, now hangs in a long brown curtain. Here's Judge Randy Deering. You're admitting for bargain? Were your wife require beyond reason? Bad? Do you understand all of those? Right? It's hard to hear,

but that's Angelo Wagner admitting guilt. The mother accused in Ohio's most complex Amazone investigation has just reached a plea deal. As part of the deal, the aggravated murder charges against Wagner were dropped. She also agreed to testify against her family members. She will spend thirty years in prison and

cannot apply for parole. But the defendant to us understatements were very visit to April this year in the usual and her family member is all inspired together to committees werenic defenses specifically the entry agent homes and for different vacation in order to kill me that time, Yeah defendant and the statement they joined recommendation to thirty years in prison.

Anguel Joe Wagoner did unlowly and was pursed to commit everybody murder was another person who were persons, so her specific targets of the Wagoners so sadly were killed simply because they happened to be there. It's not clear which of the eight victims were targets and which, as Angie Kaneppa said, were killed simply because they happened to be there.

Was there a kill list and if so, were others just caught by happenstance In the mayhem of the Wagner's murder spree, she was aware that night they walked out on the floor twenty and sixteen, who really were going and what they were going to do? Maybe tried to cover up their involvement in ange reference as well, Betters tressaud Into eighty two wrestlers were found with the attracted Hilda.

In all Angela Wagner pled guilty to fourteen charges, including conspiracy to commit murder, burglary, possession of firearms, tampering with evidence, forgery, and engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity. We now know that the Knight of the murderers, Angela Wagner, was at home watching her two grandchildren while the others allegedly went out on a kill Spring Courtney Armstrong a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane.

In the three hundred and one days since our last episode aired, there have been several significant court hearings. The biggest yet an unexpected appearance by accused killer mother herself, Angela Wagner. She's the second accused Wagner member to plead out. You're Stephanie and Jeff speaking with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan and journalist Angeanette Levy about Angela's plea deal. I was surprised because apparently she's eligible for release after serving

thirty years. So who wouldn't take that because then she can possibly and I say possibly, because she may not live that long one day get out of prison. And

this is a huge revelation. I mean, for three years now we've talked about the four core Wagoners being at every Rodan home the night of the murders, all potentially even being trigger polars, and to find out, Angela is now kind of pulling the rug out from under that story and saying that she was in fact actually at home, presumably watching the children, as her husband and two sons were out murdering the eight Rodan family members. Is a

big shift in how that night played out. That is a very low sentence for somebody who, by her own admission, is saying that she plotted plan to murder eight people. I knew full well that they were leaving the house allegedly to murder that night, so she stayed home in babysat and just waited for them to get home. My thought is, she doesn't have to be in the room

pulling a trigger here. There have been people that have gotten the needle over the years for being a planner, a facilitator, if you will, of a broader arching theme. She knows what she's involved in, and she'd better be thinking her lucky stars. You know, there's thirty years that

she's giving. Maybe she wasn't physically there. She was there though, I mean It makes you wonder she's out going to walmarts and by the shoes for her kids to go do it like how a mom buys her kids shoes for the first day of school, and now she's getting off, probably with the lightest sentence. Did she have the wherewithal to see that maybe if I stay home, my hands are clean or much cleaner than the rest of my family.

If Angela Wagner was looking to protect her family and her son's daughter, why would she possibly send her sons out to commit murder, They too could possibly be killed. You don't have to whitewash this in any way. She was there, you know. We talked about the boots which are going to come into play, I think, and we talked about the weapons that were utilized and how the setups on those were. She may not have had a gun in her hand, but she was there in more

ways than one. It's very possible she is leaving one of her sons her dead to take the hit for her. That's even more demanded. She also was the shopper and involved in a lot of the planning of this, and I can say that now because she's admitted to it. You know, she's not accused anymore. She's pleading guilty. Although one interesting legal point is that Angela and Jake Wagner have to testify to the satisfaction of the prosecution or all four of their death sentences are back on the table.

That means, for an extreme example, if Angela and Jake plead the fifth or do not testify to something that the prosecution believes that they know according to the deal they've made, this negates the plea deal. What a show this court appearance will be so for the first time.

Billy Wagner, the accused father, George Wagner, the accused eldest son, both now are moving forward with their trials, and ultimately Jake Wagner, the youngest son, and now mom Angela Wagner, will testify against them in front of them ida eye, and if the stories don't add up, they all could be looking at death sentences. It basically means that Angela and Jake Wagner better bring the goods to the trial. According to Angela Wagner's testimony, her family purchased quite a

few things to prepare for this murder. Special shoes from Walmart, ammunition, a magazine, clip, brass, catchers and a bug detector, and a bug detector is something that detects signals admitted from cameras, which would help figure out if there were surveillance cameras. So there was clearly a lot of thought and preparation for this murder. This was not a crime of passion.

Here Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa further describing the Wagner's alleged planning of the murders, specific purchases they made and actions they took to cover up the crime. The foes retire together any automicide and defended to a part in that as well as making various purchases to accomplish people there needed to phones of all victids and cameras and others to be able to Additionally, the destroy those items before acumis to gain after planning for mass committing automa sides

and be carrying the commiside out. Four defendend time tri asking others or to be dishonest with us actually admitted to purchasings are him relating to the events. Is that we're meant to help the other pretty good events and carrying out the crimes. Such a which defends people to be able to call for help. The thought of the

jammers is so horrifying. I mean, the forethought that would go into disabling the Rodents family's phones so that they wouldn't be able to call for help as they were being shot to death is really just a very scary visual. Can you imagine horror hits your house. You're fighting for your life, the people you love are being murdered, and the murderers are coming for you next, and you can finally get to the phone, and now the phones are jammed and you can't even call nine one one. It's

anybody's worst nightmare. It's a nightmare scenario and then a nightmare within that. We know, for example, little Chris was able to hide for some time during the murders. It makes you wonder did he have access to a cell phone or a house phone and tried to call for help And couldn't you get through the scariest thought imaginable. When we first started covering this, it was like, you know, Ninja's in the night and it was all no one could possibly figure out who did this? They were so skilled?

Whoever did this murder? Now we know it's pretty sloppy. Did they just get lucky for two years. There were shell casings left at the scene. That's how these people get caught. They make mistakes, they don't cover all of their tracks. This is one of the biggest murder cases in Ohio's history, if not the biggest. So here we are two plea deals, many motions, and two remaining trials ahead. Is it possible that Angela Wagner orchestrated the plan to

murder other mothers in front of their children? And if so, how could a mother create a plan that would turn her own sons into killers. Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan remembers driving past the house where the Wagner family lived. I remember traveling out to that home that they all shared, that farmhouse. It made me think, you know, for that moment time when I'm you know, traveling through that little lane in front of the home, you sit there and

you kind of consider it, you know. I remember slowing down the car and just kind of staring at it, looking at it, you know, set there and that it's a beautiful backdrop, you know, the fence and the greenery behind it, and you're thinking about, you know, what kind of plannings going on around the kitchen table. They're all party to this, and it just becomes absolutely insidious. And it seemed impossible to imagine that they were having murderer meetings.

We were speculating about that and it seemed impossible. But now we do know that to be a matter of fact, if we believe everything that's been said so far by Jake and Angela. Yeah, I agree. You start talking about conspiracy, you gotta have a meeting. You know, you gotta have a meeting. It's a collaborative effort. You know, they had meetings. Trust me. I don't know if anybody get minutes, but they had meetings. Unique to this case is that there

are so many mothers involved on all sides. Three mothers were murdered that night, including beloved matriarch, thirty seven year old victim Dana Roden. Dana Roden was returning home from working a double shift as a nurse that faithful night. She was shot five times in the head, four in the side of the head, and once under her chin. Dana Roden lived on Union Hill Road with her nineteen

year old daughter, victim Hanname Roden. Hanname Roden shared a two and a half year old daughter with admitted murderer Jake Wagner. This child is said to be at the center of this story. Hannah may Rodin had also given birth just five days prior and was holding her newborn when she was shot twice in the head. We should remind you that there are two Hannah's in this story. Admittedly, we know the least about mother and victim, twenty year old Hannah Gilly. She had long blonde hair, were dark

framed eyeglasses, and hoped to start a daycare. She and her fiance eldest son and victim Frankie Rodin, were murdered in their bed in front of their six month old and Frankie's three year old son. The children were found alive at the scenes. Hannah Gilly was shot five times in the head, once through the eye. To add another layer to that that's already complicated story, Hannah Gilly was

the sister of Charlie Gilly. Charlie Gilly was the guy Hannah may Rodin started dating after her split from Jake Wagner. So the relationship between Hannah Gilly's brother, Charlie Gilly, and Hannah may Roden feels significant to the story because it was the first relationship that Hannah Rodin really got into

after her split from Jake Wagner. And of course there's no way to know this for sure, or at least until the trials happened, but it makes you wonder if Hannah Gilly was shot so many times five to be specific, because Jake Wagner felt some type of way about her brother's relationship with Hannah May We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. On May second, twenty twenty two, a mere three weeks before this episode is airing,

there was another court appearance. This was emotions hearing between the prosecution, an accused old son George Wagner the fourth defense team. It's the latest turn in Ohio's largest homicide investigation. Attorneys for George Wagner the Fourth say there is proof he did not kill any of the eight victims. Attorneys for the oldest Wagner's son are now asking for murder charges to be dropped. The hearing revealed even more details of the Wagner's time leading up to the murders, the

night itself, and the aftermath. There was a specific focus on how the Wagner family treated women who entered their fold, beginning with victim Hanname Rodin, Jake Wagner's former girlfriend and mother of his child. The court lays out how Hanname was manipulated, abused, and controlled all but Angela at the helm. Thank you. This is State of Ohio playtoff versus George Washington Wagner the fourth defender. The case number eighteen's one

fifty five. Today's May second, twenty twenty two, and this today hearing. We'd have a hearing schedule one motions. Today the defendant was present in court. Attorneys, the record should reflect to the defendish appearing to day, and so though you clothed in visible restraints. The five foot nine George Wagner the Fourth is thickly built, with green eyes and thinning brown hair. He wears the same clothes to each court appearance, a button down with a black vest over it.

George Wagner sits flanked by his two attorneys, largely keeping his eyes lowered to the desk in front of him. Here again, Special Prosecutor Ajakanepa, I should talk about what we believe people were arching think of this criminal enterprise. It's kind of the all for one and one raw right, they functioned as a family unit, so part of that was control over the two grandchildren in the next the defendant son and Jake Starr also when Jake hold would be this unborn child at the time, so in their

reaction to when they lose control of that. There obviously also was some financial purpose behind some of what they did. Right, they were homeschooled, very insular who did not have people going off and doing things on their own. So as far as the defendant and the relationship with Hannah, this involves divesting violence towards Hannah. When we look back at Hanname Roden's social media posts in the months leading up to her murder, it's clear she was crying out for help.

In one post, she states quote end domestic violence, live a happier life here again Angie Kneppa, further outlining the length the Wagoners went through to attempt to secure Hanname Roden's child. We do have admissions on the part of Jay as to pushing her up against a wall and basically having his arm in a position that it was

choking her airways. We have witnesses to him chasing her in a vehicle after getting upset with her one day, his controlling nature towards Hannah, including but not limited to dictating every aspect in regard to their shared child. That continued writing up until Hannah was killed. His controlling nature towards Hannah regarding the second child, including but not limited to telling her not to disclose the child's pactual father

that it was his child. Because Hannah was very forthright with Jake and told him that it was not his child, he tried to get her to agree to not tell the actual father that the child was that person's child, offering to give her money to put his name on their certificate, trying to give vince her to move to Alaska with the whole family, and suggesting that they raise that child offside sheer child, as if the child was

the defendant. The father of the baby, Angie Kneppa is referring to as Charlie Gilly, who had just heard about Charlie Gilly dated hannahme rodin the summer before she was murdered. He was later proven to be the father of her five day old. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. This is the story as old as time, and we hear it a lot Unfortunately, jealousy plus rage often equals death, and this case seems to be no different in that regard. Honestly, it's a young mom. How do you murder somebody in

that way straight to the face. It seems as though there has to be something more personal to this, you know. We recently came across some personal photographs that were shared with us, one of which is particularly haunting. It shows Hannah May rodin in the hospital right after a giving

birth to her baby. She's sitting on her hospital bed next to her father, also victim, Chris Roden Senior, and she's holding her baby and wedge between them is now who we know to be a murderer, Jake Wagner, sitting between them, and he is smiling ear to ear as though in a family photo, as if with his father in law and the love of his life, Hannah May. And really the truth of this photo is that he was going to kill Hannah May, her father, and her

entire family. And that's the part that you just can't grasp. He had different plans for everybody involved, and the photo you can see in their eyes that this is not a genuine moment that anyone is enjoying other than Jake Wagner, which is just very tragic knowing what we know is to calm or this family here again Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa. So they had actual people that lived near her reporting back is the Randian or men around or etc. And

they would be cor back to Jake again. Jake's occession with Hannah wanting to get back with her and me and jealous of relationship with over males, and as we indicated to the Court and honor, this was very reminiscent of what George did with the mother of his trild. George Wagner's ex wife was a woman named Tabitha. Together,

Tabitha and George Wagner had a baby boy, Angela. Wagner fought tooth and nail to ensure she was in charge of the son, so much that she emotionally tormented Tabitha until the young woman snapped and gave up custody to the Wagner family. We first heard about this abusive relationship that Tabitha had with the Wagner family when we met her sister Christina and mother Patricia a few years ago in a trip that we took to Pike County, Ohio. When we were there in Pike County, it was pretty

clear this was a pattern. Tabitha was the first target, and she was scared enough that she actually turned over the rights of her son to the Wagner family, and that perhaps the Wagners were at it again, and because the Rodent family was fighting this custody that that's maybe

why their lives were taken. We were there shooting a documentary for NBC's Oxygen Network called The Rodin Family Murders, and when we started speaking to people who knew the Wagner family, what we uncovered was a pattern, a pattern of not only abuse, but a pattern of the Wagner family being obsessed with control of custody. And so while we all thought hannah Me Rodin was the first victim of this, it turns out that was not the case, and that this other family felt as if they too

were the victims of the Wagner's obsession with control. And I think it's worth noting that hannah Me Rodin and Tabitha where would be sister in laws, they were also really close friends and allies, and ultimately they were both alleged victims of the exact same family of abusers, the Wagners. Tabitha's sister spoke to us at length last reason, and now for the first time ever, her mother, Patricia, has

also agreed to speak on the podcast as well. And keep in mind, we now know that Tabitha's mother, Patricia is really at the center of the trials ahead. What we found is that their lives also may have been in jeopardy had Tabitha not signed away her rights to the Wagner family. It seems like it might have been possible that they too could have been murdered. It's a very chilling thought. Again, Angie Kaneppa on the Wagner's mistreatment of Tabitha. They would meet as a family and take

votes before they decided what they would do. That would range from where they were going to live down to the most intimate details between a husband and wife, for instance, intimate relations between George and Tabitha. Angela involved herself in that, so there was literally nothing that was off limits. Everything was done as a family unit. Let sinking. Angela Wagner was even involved in the most intimate details between a

husband and wife. They ultimately made the mother of George's child signed over entire custody to George with the agreement that Tabitha could visit the child if and when the Wagner said that she could. Angela has admitted that she was the one having in social media that the reason she was paying so close attention to Tabitha's Facebook was because Tabitha was making noise about taking them to court to finally get standard visitation with her child that she

had never been able to receive. So that was the reason they were doing that. But they just happened to see the conversation between Hannah and Tabitha's mother. This is a level of control that she has over her adult sons that is unparalleled. In Summer two, the teens and the private Facebook message to show that a person telling them that she did overside papers and people have to tell me nurist was first seen by Angela teaching the Squeech later Journey to Jade and the other Handily members.

In this moment, while illegally spying on her daughter in law's social media, Angela Wagner intercepts a message from Hanname roading to Patricia. Hanname stated that she would never sign custody papers ever, writing quote they will have to kill me first. Was this the moment that sealed the fate of the eight soon to be victims? Let's stop here for another break. Two months later, I resign yourself. Evidence

of the virus is homicide. In four months after design reporter Antonette Levy a few kind of looked at the big picture and looked at all of the details and what we had been able to learn about. You know how this whole alleged plan unfolded with Angela Wagner having access to Hannah's Facebook account and seeing the message she had exchanged with Tabitha's mother, you know, saying they'd have

to kill me first. And according to the prosecutors, Angela shows that to Jake and then the whole plan unfolds from there. So they're the driving forces. She's pleaded guilty to basically hacking into these Facebook accounts and monitoring these people. There was a lot of planning that went into this. I mean, she was heavily involved, although she wasn't in the room according to Jake, and according to her, somebody

had to stay home with the children. Right. This is based on their collective shared suspicion of anyone outside of their family and the safety and well being of the children that George had and Jake had defending in his family, preventing Tabitha from contacting her family during the time she was I could be defending his family. She will tell you that I believe she was allowed to call her mother one day, I remember Mother's birthday or Thunder's Day.

Last season, we heard from Tabitha's sister, Christina, who explained to us the abuse that Tabitha went through while living with the Wagner family. This included tracking her movements, emotionally abusing her, verbally assaulting her, making her feel less. Then and ultimately, Tabitha was forced to make a dramatic escape

from the Wagner home. Even at the time, we were not aware of quite how intertwined Tabitha and Victi hannahme Rodan were until now, as Moore is coming out about the months leading up to the murders, Tabitha's name is really a part of this story in a big way. Defending is mainly threatening to shoot Tabitha on the last night she was signed with them, before fleeing for her life,

never to return to the residents. Defending and codefendants having Tabitha's child who heard to and considered Angela as his mother, spying on her through surreptitious means including been a limited shoe, accessing both her and her mother's social media accounts, and having mothers spy on her and get back to them. They actually tried to enlist Hannah May while Pianamee was alive, to get information that Tabitha might disclose to her and report it back to them again. Paul to maintain custody

and control of the children. Defendant in this co defend is taking actions to prevent Tabitha for being able to be gained custody, including been limited to try and keep the child from her for more than a year so that they could claim abandonment. That was their distinct state for doing that. As we just heard, the Wagners tried to manipulate Hannah Me and Tabitha for their own means. The two young women were both in near identical situations

and were very close. Here's Tabitha's sister, Christina. They were best friends. Whenever Hannah was basically leaving Jake and all that, getting out of Angela's brass, she was talking to my sister about how to do it, and my sister told her that she had just left. She got tired of it before she had left. She asked my sister why she had left and all that, and she was upsettor at first because my sister had left her alone to

deal with it all by herself. But where they were best friends, my sister took up for Hannah a lot and didn't have that support anymore. Whenever Hannah finally left, he was talking to my sister's tavvy that she was glad that she had left, and she had tried so hard for so long to work up the courage to believe, and that she was really scared to do it, but

she was glad that she did. Stephanie and Jeff spoke with reporter Angeanette Levy and death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan and if you think of the details of the case, they all signed the custody documents. Should Jake, Hannah or George be killed or die, Angela gets custody of the children. She sends them out fully knowing my boys and my husband and may be killed and I may be taking care and raising their children for the rest of my life. To carry out this plan. I get chilled up. I

hadn't even thought of that Internet. That is even more demented than I thought, because if she gets custody specifically of Jake's daughter that he shared with Hannah, frankly, she never had a daughter of her own. Speaking for Angela, is this the granddaughter she never had? And is there a version of this where the greatest plot is to have everybody go away? I think to your point stuff

the idea that she's not there. I think that's a more disgusting level to me that you know, here boys go forth and do as I've said at this moment, Tom and that that's kind of the impetus behind this. And she kind of sends her minions out to do this thing for her that she's planned. So again this collective attempt, this strong desire con the enterprise to keep

complete custody and control the minor children. Jake threatened inn a baby violence, saying that he would tell her and her body would never be found before and again this

is a collective response. If there is nothing they do not even there was private affairs without the consent for willingness and participation of the other members of his family speaking out for the first time on this podcast is Patricia, mother of Tabitha, the ex wife of accused eldest son George Wagner, the fourth Patricia's involvement is now known to be at the center of the entire case. Yes, I think she's guilty as being because I know the demeanor

of Angelis. She tries to be the loving, fearing mother. But if you've seen the side of Angelis that I've seen, you could doubt that she was all fake. If you could talk to Angela and the first thing you went through your mind as well, she's a cannoving bitch. And if you had Tabla, that's why Tabsla limb I call her to Dane. After Tabby watch leaves George, she couldn't take Angela no more. For two years she lived with him and was not allowed to have any contact with

me once whoever, because Angela didn't want her to. They even went as far as taking dabs of cell phone from her. So it's not hearsafe for me. Tabby wasn't afraid of George, Annah wasn't afraid of Jake. They were only afraid of Angela. But what we also know is that there are new theories that dispel all of these accusations. Everybody thinks all the bad stuff happens in the big cities, but the devil works everywhere. Could Angela Wagner simply be lying?

And just who is she? It's impossible to imagine that custody is the only thing. And in recent reports an interview as we've done, it seems as though there may be a larger plot in play. Stop miss a lie. I just feel like something is not right. There's like a good four or five places that burned out. This is one of the biggest pieces of physical evidence that we've had thus for There's a lot more secrets to uncover in Pike County that involved the Wagner family and

the Rodent family. They drug the whole family through the mud. Not use the mud, they drug us through. Hey, people who could not or would not speak out before have come out of the woodwork. We know the end. We've got some idea what happened in the middle. I want to know about the beginning. When did the switch flip to where the only resolution was to go and kill them all? More on that this season. If you haven't listened to seasons one and two, last week's How We

Got Here episode, We'll Catch You Up. For more information on case photos, follow us on Gram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a production of

Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.