Manner of Life

season three, episode eight, Manner of Life. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. So far the season, we've heard a lot about recent court proceedings between the Wagoners and the prosecution that will shape upcoming trials. They've covered everything from where the trials will be held, what evidence will be allowed

into testimony, and who might be charged with what. All of this leads to what we hope will be some small form of justice for the Roden, Gillie and Manly families who lost the unthinkable. When the Maskaker initially happened six years ago, a lot of the remaining family members spoke publicly. Not so in recent years, however, we've made contact with some people who want to share their memories of their family. Here's Jeff speaking with a Roden family

member who reached out to us. They've asked us not to use their name. I'm curious how you found us and what made you contact us. Now, I drive a lot on the road, and I listened to podcasts everywhere. I happened upon the pike in Masker, which you know,

is part of my extended family. So I wanted to listen to it, and I was really impressed with the respect that was given to the family, and so a friend of mine and myself we eagerly wait every week to hear it, and so I just commented on it, you know, thanking you all for being respectful to the family. What is that experience like losing loved ones but then losing it in a way where other people are kind

of a part of your experience. It'd be a strange thing to divine for you, because we would see each other a few times a year at family unions and what have you. So it was a giant shop. Man. I hate to say this, but it wasn't as hurting to me as I know it was to a lot of the very close family members, and it's hard to describe a law such a loss of a large chunk of a family. When you first heard the podcast, what

was your thought? Kind of got interested in yours because you all would give the facts as they were, and then you would talk about the possibilities of how that would make people feel. So that was very interesting to me. These are not just people who were removed from this earth. They were people. They were real people. You actually going after trying to bring real life people to this is pretty exciting to me. I mean, not making them as

victims alone. You're making them as people and that's appreciated. Jeff asked what growing up as a member of the Roden family was like he first spoke about Geneva Roden as a reminder, Geneva is Chris Roden seniors and Kenneth's mother,

Frankie Hannah and little Chris's grandmother. Growing up, especially in my younger years, we would go visit Geneva and her family, and the things I remember the most when you met Geneva, you were guaranteed a smile and always a hug, and whatever they had, whether it be a watermelon or a piece of cake or whatever it was was shared with you. When you got there, you just became one of the kids. Geneva just was always the sweetest thing ever was and

would just hug you to death. About three times a year, our family would get together and we would just pile in a car and we would ride and see relatives, and Geneva lived close to other relatives, so we would just kind of make a big round trip in two Ohio and then back into Kentucky. We would spend two or three days up there, just following up wherever we could. And our family was that way. If you went to their house, they just made room for you. It didn't matter.

You just had a great time and you go swimming and you do this and that. We didn't have Facebook or things like that in those days. It sounds like you like a nice way to grow up. It was, it really was. Immediately after the murders, Geneva spoke publicly about the unimaginable loss she was facing. On April twenty second, twenty sixteen, in one single night, she lost her son's Chris Roden Senior and Kenneth Roden, her grandchildren Frankie, Hannah

May and Little Chris Roden and her nephew Gary. Her words were a stark juxtaposition to the idyllic life her family once lived. Love decided. I'm the mother Christopher Senior and the mother of Kenneth, and from my mother's heart had I hurt so bad inside from the day that I flmed out. If there's someone out there that knows anything about what happened with the pleased pleased coming forward,

there has to be so one. It was all but looks like the world had ended when I found out about the family that they took out my grandchildren, X daughter at all, my nephew and my grandson, my girlfriend. There was eight members that they took that day, and the hurt them blue way from a mother, I think about a day night, I lose a lot of sleep board and still what try to go on the rest of my children is going to so much listen to brothers the same day. I would have never dreamed that's

something that is would happen. Here are Stephanie and Jeff speaking about Geneva Rodin. Geneva Rodin is nearly eighty years old, and it's impossible to imagine what she deals with every day. Not only the court proceedings, but also being there for her family because there's still many other family members who rely on her and lean on her as the Rodan matriarch. Several years ago, when we were first making the documentary for Oxygen about the Rodent murders, Jeff and I actually

went to the nursing home that Geneva resided at. At the time, we actually thought she was a distant cousin to the Rodents, and we didn't realize until we got there that she was actually Chris Senior's mother and that she had lost her children and her grandchildren, And ultimately she was uncomfortable speaking on camera, which we of course completely understood. It was all just way too raw for

her and her level of grief was frankly unimaginable. Geneva is really an example of a person who's frankly inspiring. You know, We've said this many times since then. When you meet another human being who has experienced such deep pain and she can continue to push on and continue to be there for her loved ones and show up to court relentlessly and push through, then surely the rest of us can push through whatever stressing us in our lives.

And she's really offered us a lot of perspective. I share this really simply to say the level of grief that this family has experienced is incredibly far reaching. Geneva Rodan and other members for her family, I would imagine the catalysts for them wanting to speak out is to bring attention to their family's case and not just how to be about the accused Wagner family, and really remind everyone that the victims, the Rodents in this case, were real human beings who were not just what happened to

them in twenty sixteen. It's so true. And also, you know, oftentimes when we talk about crime, the victims just become a footnote. It's always about the manner of death and less about the manner of life. And this is another example that you know, Geneva is a living and breathing woman who has had her entire family wiped out, and whoever is responsible for that should pay. Jeff continued his conversation with the Rodent family member. Where Chris Senior and

Gary and Kenneth were they around? Did you see them? They were about probably eight or nine, maybe teen years younger. Man. I remember Chris Junior and Kenneth and them they were wandering around just doing what kids do. They played with us. Kids have always just played together. We really didn't keep in contact after you know, outside of family unions. Every life kept getting in a way for everyone. And that's

just a sad fact of the way it was. They were just beating their way through this world, just like everyone else. To believe, that's why this thing was more shocking than one would think. It became clear that there were obvious parallels between Chris Roden Senior's upbringing and how he, alongside his wife Dana, raised his own family. They were just people, They were just good old Americans. She was the daughter of a man named Tip who lost his

life in a little place called Jonesborough, Ohio. He was logging. An attractor come back on him and killed him. And then not too long after that, she lost her mother. That left Geneva with raising her own siblings. After losing her mother and father, she got married and they had children, And this happened at the same time, and that she had this entire group of people, her siblings and her

own children that she was raising. So that takes an immense amount of strength to do, giving the way the world is in Geneva didn't have a whole lot to get through this world, but she made it. She was and she raised them, and she raised fine people. Geneva's father was one of eight or ten brothers who grew up down in Kentucky. They lived in poverty, but it's not a poverty that most people would understand. During the wintertime, they didn't have shoes. They didn't even have leather to

put on their feet. They would rap rags or whatever they could find around their feet just to get to school. They went to school in a one room schoolhouse on a little place called Grassy Creek. There was no way to make a living for their father, James. That survival instinct was passed down through through Geneva in most of the family, and her dad was an amazing man, even long before there were mechanics. He would find old cars or tractors and make them run, and then he would

trade them for stuff that didn't run. Now, in that trade he would get a little extra money which would go to his family and they might be able to buy a little something, a little bit of food. I've heard with the Roden's being super resourceful with cars and good with your hands, I've heard that about Chris Senior being fiercely protective of one another and going to bath for each other. It's the same stuff, and it's a little easier for me then it would be for you,

of course, because I know the family. But that is very interesting that you can draw a line from the early nineteen hundreds to her children and see similarities, like Chris Junior would just jump under the hood of a car and be able to fix it. I can see those similarities and being able to defend each other. I can see that going all the way back to that side of the family. I just want to clarify by Chris Junior, you mean Chris Roden sor yes, he's Chris

Junior to you, because there's another Chris. Yes. Jeff also recently had a phone conversation with Talicia, Dana and Chris Senior's niece and Hannah, Frankie and little Chris cousin. Well gone more than six years now, the Rodents are present with Talicia and live on with her young daughters. As someone who has been working on this story for many years, I feel very touched by it, and I'm sure you know obviously being related to everyone, it means a lot

to share her about and talk about it. Can you hear me? Okay, yeah, I can hear you. I was checking to see where the kids work. How many kids do you have? I have foo? You have your hands fall? Yes, they're all girls. I actually have one named after aunt Dana, and her name is Hannah Lynne. We gave her Hannah after the two Hannah's and Lynne after Dana. That's beautiful. So Dana was your great aunt and she was able to meet your eldest daughter, Cherokee before everything happened. Dana

was my aunt. She was Cherokee's great aunt. So who are your parents? My mother was Dana's sister, Kathie. She has two sisters and a brother. Her brother's name is James Manley. And then my other aunt Bobby Joe. As a reminder, Talicia's aunt, Bobby Joe Manley is the one who discovered the horrific crime scene and called nine one one nine one yes, if yes, forty over? I need who walked to the no ball? Okay, my brother halls dead? Okay, what girl Davey has sat here? Forty seventy seventy forty

seventy seven, forty seventy seven. Okay fort zero seven seven email correct, yes for you see man on yes, all over the house. Okay, my brother Haws who says very look, I'll beat the hell. Okay, we're gonna blood all hearts the man. Can you coming the county? That's dad is down. It's my county. H Okay, okay, I need to get out of the house. They can drive over there. That's a head running Christler and seen Garry Rod and Sank and Gary Rod and start things ahead. Looks like the

dad take your vad. I think the great dads. I don't speaker pop out of them. Okay. If there anybody else in the house, I know. Okay, the door was lost, be good here, but on her friend team was and I went in and hit her, landing on the floor and went on house and I'm starting now. Okay, stay out of the house the way anybody got her there? Okay, yeah, all right, we don't get it. He's on my right. Okay, I thank you your mother. The trauma of that discovery

is long lasting. I used to hang out a lot with Bobby Joe that like after everything happened, she just like completely changed. Here again is Jeff as a reminder, Bobby Joe Manly is Dana Roden's sister, and she discovered the horrific crime scene at Chris Senior Roden and Frankie Roden's house, and to just kind of put yourself in her shoes, she found out that her loved ones were heinously murdered, not by word of mouth, but actually by

discovering their bloody bodies. And an experience like that it changes you forever, how could it not. And we did a little research into severe trauma like the kind Bobby Joe experienced, and only around seven percent of Americans report experiencing an event like this. And obviously, even I would say what Bobby Joe went through is probably worse than what a lot of those seven percent report. It's just unimaginable, and I don't think anyone could ever understand what she's

dealt with. Here's steph again speaking with Telicia. To me and Hannah were only like six months and four two days apart. Wow, I just turned twenty four. I actually have a picture of us on our baby and my baby book in the Very Bad She was a year and a half in this picture and I was five months. So you guys grew up together. The leat your rope togeverybody was pretty close her and my little brother was close to him, and Christopher wasn't very far apart either.

Everybody used to ask me what I thought of Frankiella was like, listen, me and Frankie and Hannah and Christopher and Henry Junior, which is my brother, and Heath, which is my other girl. I said, we was something else, especially around Fourth of July, because when four the July came, we wanted to try and have Roman candle fights and everything else, so there'd be like big family celebrations on these kind of days. Yeah, we're going to take a break.

We'll be back in a moment. As they grow into teenagers, like many girls, Talicia and Hannah May would do each other's hair and makeup and have fun just driving around. Me and Hannah May like the long destination drives with no idea where it was going. I'm just listening to music. What kind of music did she like? She was mainly a country girl. Other than that she liked Brian Church I think is his name. She did ay sity a

country girl. When she was in a jeep, she liked to go out, and she liked to go money and tell me about Dana. What kind of aunt was she? She would take us all clothes, shopping for school and stuff. When school time came around. Your kids are young, do they know about your great aunt and what happened. I actually have a book I made in memory of them. It's like a photo album book. I figured why not

keep their memory alive with the children. When I was pregnant with Cherokee, Hannah had actually done a like a gender revealed with me. She done my pictures and then right before I gave birth to Cherokee, she had also done my maternity picture. Dana was one of the first ones I told that I was pregnant with Cherokee. She was so excited and she kept telling me, all you're having a girl. I was like, hey day, and I

don't know yet. I had went into labor with Cherokee on the eighth of March and then I didn't have her until the nights, and Dana was there the whole time. She pasted the floors and she was like, is she ready to get hurt? And Hanname was there when Nana first saw Cherokee. She started crying at first, and she looked at me and she was like, she's so beautiful.

After we brought her home from the hospital, she would always want Cherokee to come out and take naps with her before she went to work, and she wanted to do pictures with Cherokee. I was born twenty fifteen, and then Hannah was born, not even a month after they were killed. When I went into labor with Hannah, I looked at my mom and I said, I wish Auntina was here, because you know, she was there for the first baby, she would have wanted to be there for

the second. After I had delivered Hannah, I ended up crying because I kept looking at her, and I've kept telling Mama, was like, I want to be happy, but I'm also kind of sad because you know, it's not even been a month yet and we had lost family members. How do you deal with that or reconcile with wanting to remember but also wanting to live your life. When I'm with the girls, I try to teach them stuff that like Aunt Dana would have taught them as well.

Terry Key. She knows that if we go to the cemetery, Aunt Dana's there and she'll ask, can we go see Aunt Dana? Mommy and I will take her to see the grave. We took her just a couple of weeks ago. How do you think that the manly wrote in Jelly families will be different now that all this has happened.

When it first happened, like we was all really close with each other, and after the year started going out, the only other time we gather is like when we want to do like a release or a candle fighting for another year of them being dead. Jeff as Talicia if there was anything she could learn from this terrible tragedy, and she was reminded of advice that her cousin Hannah Ma gave her. I don't go by words. I watched their actions. Hannah would teach me where she was murdered.

She would tell me you can't trust their words because their words can always be broken. She's like, trust their actions. What do you try to take away from Dana? As you're a mom now she would take in the kids that wasn't even hers. So everybody tells me that I'm just like Aunt Dana Cherokee. She's she's usually a very playful girl. She's like running around playing there was one day, but was all sitting outside at night. We was around a campfire, and she looked at us and she said, MoMA,

I missed Dana and I wish she was here. So I liked that Cherokee and I pointed up at the stories. I said, did you see that bright story there, the brightest one in the sky. She said yeah, I said, that's Dana watching over you. Well, clearly the Rodents enjoy a strong sense of family. There are some dark things that have happened to generations of the Rodents that can't be ignored. I wonder about you. Hear the term generational trauma. What is your take on generational trauma and how it

affects your family. The saddest part of this is that only in the later years have we begun to even to realize generational trauma. For people of that generation, it was never considered trauma. It was just considered life. I know that's a sad thing to say, but it was just considered being able to live through, to fight through. In these days, we really do understand so much better.

But I have to believe that in those days, what it really meant was as sad as it is to say, I think that type of trauma, giving from that generational one really makes people stronger in a way. The survival instinct is just within this family. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. Generational trauma is trauma that isn't just experienced by one person,

but extends from one generation to the next. And now everyone is susceptible to generational trauma, but there are specific populations that are more vulnerable due to their histories, and two of those buckets are poverty and violence, which based on what we've been told about the Rodent family history, it seems that they would be susceptible to this type of trauma. Based on our further research, dealing with generational

trauma is best dealt with through counseling. I recently spoke to a psychiatrist who said that the Rodents were really emblematic of generational trauma and they shared a very famous example of what that could and there was experiment conducted by scientists on mice and a lab and the scientists would basically spray perfume near mice and then shock the mice,

and they would repeat that on a regular basis. They would spray their perfume, shock the mice, spray their perfume, shock the mice, and then sure enough, eventually, even without shocking them, they would just spray the perfume and the mouse would physically respond as though it had been shocked. Perhaps even more interestingly, those mice eventually had babies of their own, and guess what when the scientists sprayed those mice with the perfume, they too would physically react like

they were being shocked, even though they weren't. This would be an example of how trauma and sorrow can literally be passed down generationally on a cellular level, as if it becomes part of our DNA. Let's stop here for another break. Here again our anonymous Rodent family member talking about Chris Senior's mother, Geneva. They will come through when this is long gone and we're remembering back, and they will come out on the other side with their chins up.

No matter what happens, no matter who's locked up for what, no matter who goes to prison, Geneva will walk with her head up, and she will still be smiling. She will smile. And I can only imagine the pain and the tolls took on her, you know, with what happened. But she will survive. That's just in her bloodline. She will come through this. I don't think there's anything that any of us could learn from this. It's just an awful, terrible thing. How would you want your family to be remembered?

What's the legacy you being remembered a certain way probably isn't as high on the list for my family or my cousin. We would just like to know that we did the best we could while we were here, and if that means some type of legacy was left, then fantastic. But if it doesn't, it still doesn't matter. We carved our place out of this world. We know within ourselves that you know, we are survivors and for lack of

a better term, we are fighters. You know, we will fight for what we believe, and that is in family. In current times, the only thing, and this is sad to say that the world even knows the name wrote and would be because of a terrible tragedy. I can say absolutely that we don't want to know him for just then, have you been following the court cases or the legal proceedings, and if so, what's your take on the My take on it is that this family was

just a strange and terrible, small cult like family. This is just me, my own personal opinion, and no matter what, I feel like they were guided by one in the family. Now I'm not saying this person made them do it. I'm saying they were guided by that person then would do absolutely anything for this person, and somehow it went from not killing people to killing people. And I don't

know what happened during that. I know that during the plea when two of them played out, one claiming that he didn't shoot anyone and the other one I'm not even sure what he's claiming. It's going to be pretty interesting of what happens there. But I just believe it was a small cult family that just got ideas flowing in the kitchen with baskets on the wall, and these ideas just kept going and going and going until there was no turning back. Do you think Angela Wagner was

kind of the one at the humble all us. I feel like that, and I could absolutely be wrong, but I feel like she was that type that she would be the one to just kind of corner them in and you know, here's what we're doing, guys, and this is what we need to do. Guys, and then you know, and that comes from what I've read and just the

evidence that I've seen. I'm sure that there's mountains of evidence that I haven't seen or heard from it, as I shouldn't because that's you know, that should be in court. But that's where I am right now with it, which it could change the next day. But I feel like that she kind of kept the strong arm on these boys for all these years, and it became so normal to them that if mom says X, then X it is right. That does seem to be what we're caring. And do you feel a justice is going to be served?

Is there such a thing as justice in this situation? I am a great believer in justice, I really am. I absolutely feel that justice will be served, and I believe wholeheartedly in our justice system. I'm not hoping for anything one way or the other. I'm not hoping for this sentence or that sentence. I have faith in our justice system, and I believe in the end the powers

to be we'll see that justice is done. And this was a family and they had every right to walk on this earth with the rest of us, and someone took that from them. And everyone needs to know that these people lived, and these people had lives, and they loved and they worked, and they are so much more than what we're going to see and the years to come, and it can't be helped. I know that the trial and the people on trial would be in the limelight,

and that just is as it has to be. But it is very important to me that the world knows that they were alive, and they were living, and they were loved, and they hadn't children. I just don't want it forgotten that these were people. More on that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes there every

Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Greaves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a production of

Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.