George Wagner’s Final Day on the Stand

So she's lying.

I'm not saying she's I'm saying she's.

Mistaken, but everybody else is lying.

I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about that night.

Angela Caneppa. If you listen to it, she hammers and moment, and I think if I'm saying, there's a your if they paid as closest attention to this trial as I have, that's a red flag.

What happens to you if you come in here and admit that you and your brother and your father slaughtered perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds.

Do you want to hear answer? Well, I feel it should happen to anybody that would do that.

I want to know what happens to you if you come in here and admit that.

What should happen to anybody is they should have death given to them.

This is the pipeson Masaker returned to Pike County season four, episode twenty three, George Wagner's final day on the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidacer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner Fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges after answering more than seven hours worth of questions

George Wagner back on the stand for a second day.

He is on trial for murder in the Pie County massacre that happened in twenty sixteen.

Wearing a light blue collared dress shirt, a dark tie, and black vest, George Wagner the fourth returned to the stand on the forty third day of his trial, defense attorney John Parker started the morning by asking George Wagner about his use of Facebook.

Now, did you use Facebook.

On and off?

Wagner said he occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell items like truck parts on its marketplace app, and to talk to friends, including Frankie Rodin.

With respect of Facebook, did you ever know of your mother to.

Use your account?

Not to my knowledge.

Did you ever know whether your mother obtained a password?

Not to my knowledge?

However, George testified his mother was constantly trying to access the social media passwords.

Did you ever have.

An issue with your mother trying to access your fault her?

Not?

Really, I'm not gonna say accessing about constantly looking over my shoulder trying to get the password to it. I changed my password like daily because she would try and figure out what my password was. How do you know that she was always looking over my shoulder when I put my password in?

Is that before the murders?

Far back as I've had an iPhone.

George also said he was aware of the GoFundMe page his brother Jake created, but also that he had nothing to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then shifted the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and now I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at the Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he didn't know if his shrug was bugged and his phone was tapped, but he said he assumed they were during.

That time frame.

What was your mindset, so to speak about the investigation and whether your family was guilty or not doing What was your mindset?

Though?

I believed that they were just trying to frame my mom and my brother and my family for the fact that they didn't have anybody else to look at.

Why did you think that?

Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.

The fear of law enforcement also led George to think his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.

From the way I understood it was that BCI would stoop to any level to get information about my family, and that they would try and send a woman in there to get close to me or my brother and get information.

Right.

Does that explain some of the conversations we heard on the recordings between you and your brother about that.

Yes, because she didn't know my brother at all and married him within like three months, and I just didn't trust, not with everything that our family was being accused of.

George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he did not trust her.

Why not?

Multiple different reasons?

Take your time and.

Reason one. When she first broke up my brother and then got back with him, I just thought it was weird that somebody who met a complete stranger would want to be with somebody who was accused of what we were being accused.

Of, all right? Were there other reason?

Yes?

The second reason was she had come up with a story about her childhood that she and her brothers and her mother was part of some cult for some church in Texas, and I had guessed the church ended up selling kids the sex, slavery or something like that.

All right, Was there any other reason?

The other one was I came home from work one week and my son said that Bessett told him that you shoot bad people with AR fifteen's.

George Wagner said he told his family he didn't want Elizabeth living with them after they returned to Ohio, didn't.

Feel my son was safe around her.

Did you want to kill her?

No?

What did you want?

I just wanted her to move out of the house.

Wanting to drive home the point that George Wagner was a loving and caring uncle. Attorney John Parker asked George about his nickname for his niece. George said that when Jake and Hannah's daughter was a baby, he began to playfully call her SuDS.

She was playing one day in a bucket full of water that she was sitting in and was fielful of soap, and.

So you gave her the nickname sugs.

Yes.

After Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to Jake about his daughter.

During those conversations. Did you know that he had killed her?

Now?

What was his demeanor when you brought up sucks?

Depends on what I was going on, but usually it turned into a fight in an argument about what. Anytime I would save it made a face like Hannah, or it looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah, he would throw a fit.

You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes? Did you love Yes? Did you kill these people for her?

Now?

Would you ever do.

That now.

Here's Jeff and Stephanie.

Do you think, Steph that this testimony humanizess George Wagner in anyway.

I mean, look, even if it does humanize him, both things can be true. I think if we've learned anything just in the process of making this podcast and following it for as long as we have, it's just that certain people can be a lot of things at the same time. So on the one hand, yes, maybe this does make him seem more compassionate, and on the other he's being accused of commiserating to murder of eight people that, according to this compassionate testimony he knew very well.

And both things may be true.

This is a good example of the defense adding a rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained. It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd, and it could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know, is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's story because all they have to do is just turn one juror in favor of George.

I would imagine too, if in fact, he knew what hot water he and his family were in at that time. The idea of adding a new person just seems nuts. On the one hand, it shows that Jake wanted to marry Elizabeth before they returned to piked In.

And on the other.

Side of it, why would you add somebody else to the equation that has to keep your story straight? And if George presents himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or is adding context to the dynamics, one person can decide his fate.

Well, he loved his niece, George said he and Jake also fought and disagreed about how to raise their children. Here again, defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner the fourth.

Did you and your brother have the same ideas on how to how to raise your respective children?

No, not by a long shot.

Can you explain.

My brother wanted to basically keep chained up in the house for her entire life until she graduated college.

What was your idea of how to raise it?

My idea of it was, I guess you could say I spoiled him. I didn't ever tell him that whatever he wanted, I got it for him, and I got a lot of hell over.

That, and my.

Main plan was that eventually when he was older, all kids are going to be kids, regardless of what you say or do, They're going to make their own mistakes. I've made mine, everybody I knows made theirs, and they're going to do it anyway, whether you tell them not to or whether you tell them to do what, they're

Did you discuss this with your brother?

Yes?

Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on? Yes?

Yes?

Is that a source of disagreement between.

You and you as.

Well?

All over the objection?

Yes, it was a massive disagreement.

Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, both Jake and George agreed on one thing that was at their mother Angela Wagner should have custody of their kids should anything happen to them. George said he remembers signing the backdated custody documents that Angela prepared, claims he did so without looking at them.

I came home one day and I was going to my room, change clothes and go back out the door, and my mom said that she was filling one out for my brother and asked if I wanted one that was more legit than the handwritten when I had. And I told her if she wanted that, she had like ten minutes to get it, and I had to get and I signed. My neighbor walked out.

Okay, so break that down a little bit, all right. Do you remember when.

That was sometime early twenty sixteen?

All right?

And the document that you signed, had it been completed? Was it blank? What did you know about?

It?

Was just like a printed out for him.

Did you read it? No?

I just signed my name to it.

And what'd you do after you sign your name?

I walked out the front door and left again.

And what was your understanding of this document she wanted to you de signed? You were coming at it out and changing.

I just assumed she was making another one that was more legitimate looking in my handwritten one.

Here's Stephanie and Jeff.

So the defense has been trying to show George as a Karen attentive, smart with it person and father. But the whole explanation that he just signed these custody documents on a whim to me undercuts the.

Caring and attentive father image.

It reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care, that he would just sign something without thinking about it or putting any thought into it. His defense attorney attempts to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing undercuts what the defense has been trying to do.

Which is a completely fair point, I would say. In the totality of what he's been saying in his testimony so far, they're trying to make him stand alone and stand apart from his other family members. It also shows that he was pretty conditioned to do.

Whatever his mother said.

Kind Of my takeaway from what the story is they're telling is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing with his mother and that his family was always doing some kind of a scam or a con and that he just looked the other ways, or through his hands up and didn't really think much of it.

Well, the defense can't have it both ways.

They can't say on the one hand that he is a carrying, attendive father who thinks everything through and it's independent of his family, but then also just signs a document because his mom tells him to and he trusts her. Those are conflicting ideas that I think the jury will see throw.

Despite testifying the day before that he had wanted to distance himself from his family's criminal activities, George admitted to chopping up cars for insurance money.

Did you ever make money other than driving.

Trucks multiple different ways?

Did you ever cut up trucks?

Yes, explain it.

My grandfather, my mom's father, would have people come by that would have a diesel Dodge truck or a Diesel Shavy or whatever contruck really, but they would owe on the truck and they would want out from under it. So I'd give him five hundred to one thousand dollars and they'd give me the truck and give me a week to chop with up and sell it. And then they reported stole and turned in on the insurance company.

And so explain how that works as far as chopping up, and so you.

Just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you sell it's part different parts of different people.

And you did that when you lived on Peterson. Yes, do you know approximately how many trucks believe?

Five Later defense tourney John Parker pivoted to address the damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner tried to counter the prosecution's descriptions of some of the most incriminating comments.

Thinking back on these recordings that we listened to, do you remember saying on the recordings anything about your mother and whether she should get an attorney or not. Do you remember any of that?

Yes?

What do you remember?

The conversations I believe you're talking about is that if all of us were arrested, that my mother should get the best one.

And did you say that?

Yes?

Why did you say that?

Because my mom's the one that watched the kids five days a week while we were gone. Anyway, they were used to being with her for five days a week, and I feared it would be easier on my children.

What were you thinking, you said?

I was just going under what basically I understood from the attorneys that if we got arrested, that it could take six months, it could take two years to get to a trial and be able to work things out.

Do you remember on some of the recordings we listened to your mother saying something about being framed?

Yes, what do you recall?

My mom and brother has said that since the beginning. That's why I believe that we were being framed, because they said that they were twisting everything that my mom and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they were trying to frame us.

And was that your mindset during these conversations. Yes, after listening to these recordings that we heard in court, how do you feel about what Jake was saying and what.

You now know he did?

I now know that he was just flying through his teeth to me. What about your mother the same thanks, she's just lying to me from the beginning.

Did you ever tell your mother referencing these reportings, did you ever tell your mother you would take the blame for these murders?

No?

I did not.

So George has testified that he didn't trust his mother.

We know this.

He also didn't trust his brother, and he knew he was being raised frankly by career criminals and in his opinion, his brother was very selfish and manipulative, and at this point, whether this is before the murders or even after the murders, George was supposed to be on the straight and narrow.

George likes to claim that he knew the whole time his family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet, according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses to believe their story about what happened in and around the Roaded massacre. It just doesn't line up about the explanation George gave earlier. He knows their liars, yet accept

Attorney John Parker then focused on one of the most potentially damaging recordings. In it, George Wagner threatened BCI investigator Ryan Schiderer. George testified that it was not a real threat, but a comment made out of frustration and anger.

One of the conversations we listened to in both your brother and your mother, and you were kind of in the background, your mother said something about their framing us.

You remember that, yeah, and that she would take the death company. Yes, you remember that at that time.

Did you know your mom and brother were involved in these murders or committed the murders. No, I think it was In that same conversation, Jake says he will get out one way or another.

Do you remember that.

Yeah, at that time did you know he had killed these people?

No?

I was on the assumption that he was referring to if he got framed and was wrongfully convicted.

And then your voice is in the background and you say, ain't gonna have the electric.

Chair or words to that.

Yes you remember that.

Yes, what did you mean by that?

I just get irritated when people were messing with my family and stuff, especially when I've been out for five days with no sleep and a massive amounts of caffeine, and it makes you irritable.

Did you know at that point that your mom and brother were actually guilty of anything?

No?

Are you guilty of any of these events?

No?

On that same recording or conversation, remember hearing your voice say.

I want to kill Ryan.

Yes, I said that.

What did What did you mean by that explain context.

It was more blind, like when you're angry at somebody you say stupid stuff like that. Don't mean that you mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at one point or another.

There was another comment you made to your brother during one of these full calls about you telling people the truth is the reason we're in this mass. You remember that, yes, can you explain it?

In the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed at my family because my brother pissed off the manlies, which he does to almost everybody he's around.

We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Defense attorney John Parker wrapped up his questioning of George Wagner by again asking him if he had any involvement in the murders.

Did you know your family was going to kill these people? No? Before it happened to Joe. No, after it happened to je No.

Did you ever have any conversations with your brother about No.

Did you ever talk to your mom about it?

No?

You're dead now. If you had known this was going to happen, what would you do?

I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped it. One way or another.

Did you love him?

Yes?

Did you consider frank you a good friend?

I consented me my best friend.

Looking at Wagner Zhibit fifty three, Dash Law, this is your wedding photo right.

Yes, you have one arm around, who Tabby?

You have another arm around?

Who haves Frankie?

Here again? Jeff and Stephanie.

We knew when we saw the photo from George and Tabitha's wedding a couple of years ago that it was influential and significant, but singing in court really proves that to be true. This was a big moment where both of the families got together and it highlights their relationships.

We'll share it on our social media, but it's a pretty astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of how close they were. And everybody in the photograph is either dead or accused of their murder.

The statement cross exam.

Here's Law on Crime's investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy.

I was actually part of me felt kind of impressed watching him on direct because I felt that he just seemed calm, and he'd obviously been prepped, but he just seemed to have answers for everything, and that kind of made me wonder a little bit, because you can't have you can't always have answers for everything. But he seemed to have an answer for everything. Obviously, he's been prepped,

The prosecution focus did on George Wagen to the force honesty today on the witness stand.

After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor and Jacineppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that he and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship.

Let's go ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him your best friend? Yes, so in twenty twelve, you have your arm around Frankie, he's standing next to you at your wedding. Yes, And prior to the homicides, when had you ever.

Talked to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December.

Late December of twenty fifteen. Yes, okay, And isn't it true that you told us that you didn't even know Hannah Hazel.

I have met her one time in my life.

But at the Border, when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen, you said you had never met her, that the last person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel, and that was before you got married in twenty twelve.

Angel was before Chelsea.

You indicated at the border that the last person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel, and that was when you still had your pulling chuck, which was before you got married.

Not that I remember. I could be wrong, but not that I remember.

Okay, Well, George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie Rodin in months and had never met Frankie's son. He explained that he didn't have as much time for friends when he began long haul driving, also after his own son was born. However, the prosecution presented an alternative theory.

So you'd never met Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant for nine months and Ruger was six months at the time of burse that's at least fifteen months where you didn't know Hannah Hazel, never met her, never met her. But Frankie was your best friend.

Yes, who I considered my best friend who you block on Facebook, who I did not walk on Facebook.

Well, he was blocked on your Facebook.

It might be, but it didn't happen for me, okay.

And you did not have any Facebook conversations with Frankie either.

Did you?

Not very many that I remember.

As in zero, not that I remember, okay.

And you can have a question George's relationship with the mother of Frankie, Roden's oldest child, who had testified earlier in the child She alleged that there was bad blood between George and Frankie.

You remember Chelsea testifying, Yes, okay. Is it true that you reached out to her at.

Some point, at one point in time by me and Chelsea started talking, yes, okay.

And Frankie found out about.

That, Yes, and he was upset in the beginning, Yes to I explained that he was nothing more than friends.

Okay. So then Chelsea's lying when she said that that put a you guys held a grudge against each other after that, and no, your.

Friendship, we did not grudge against each other after that.

Okay. So she's lying.

I'm not saying she's lying, saying she's mistaken.

Okay, But you never met Hannah Hazel and didn't know his name.

No.

You also indicated that Frankie was a fighter, yes, that you've seen videos of him fighting. Yes, And that you would have to go through Frankie to get to anyone in the family more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what you said.

Yes, okay, I don't see Frankie let anybody mess.

With his family, yeah, or Kenneth right.

I don't see anybody in their family, let anybody mess with their family.

And Jakanappa also attacks George Wagner's claims that he hated his own family and wanted to escape them. She does this by referencing a conversation Jeorge had in twenty eighteen with his new girlfriend Josie.

And I guess you tried, or at least it seemed yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you hardly even liked him at which point in time, any point in time.

From early time, childhood, it wasn't that bad with him. We were just little kids, but the older we got the worst. He died, okay, and at the last point I might get ten good days out of one hundred with him, maybe.

Okay, But you just saw that text message in twenty eighteen right to Josie. Yes, where you're saying I'm really close with my family, you're kind of warning her or making sure that she's okay with that, because you were contemplating having her come live with you.

Right, not at the house house staying in though, Say it again, not that the house I was staying in.

Though, But you wanted her to come live with you.

I want her to move down here eventually, because that's what she was talking about. But I wasn't going to let her move in the house with my mother.

Okay, you didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct, So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking to your mother on the phone, when you said that you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where I can still make a living and where me and Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and whoever else we decide to bring so we can have a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and the drama from everyone.

Am I allowed to explain this?

Did you say that?

Yes? I said that? Okay, Am I allowed to go into details this? Sure, it doesn't mean live in the same house. It means by a bigger farm, and he has a house on one corner. She has a house on one corner, and I've got a house on corner.

Okay, kind of like what you guys were considering doing when you moved to Missouri. Right.

In a further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the prosecution brought out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents at the Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him on the discrepancy between what he said then and what he was saying now on the witness stand.

I know you talked about your mother and you said, well.

You describe her to me, she is thanks you better than everybody. Thanks. Everything has to be done her way. I would probably say that I could put selfish in that manipulative.

And again, I mean, this is new and different than what you told us at the border.

Right.

That's not what you said about your mother at the border.

Right.

I don't remember what I said at the border.

Okay, Well, you were asked if your mom was controlling. I bet your mom is so controlling that she probably even organized the whole thing. And you said, my mom is not controlling. You were asked your mom's not controlling, you said no at all. Do you remember saying that.

I don't remember saying that.

Okay, Well, is that true.

That she's not controlling?

Correct?

As a before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad that I can remember, but she got worse as the years went by.

Okay. So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that question and you said she's not controlling.

She tried to do or not as far as actually controlling me, No, she didn't, okay, but she tried to control me. If that answers your question.

Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is, considering you said one thing at the border, and you said an entirely different thing yesterday and today.

So, despite testifying that his mother was manipulative and selfish, George tried to explain why he was willing to sign away custody of a son.

You talked about these custody documents that you and your brother signed, and your mother forged the signature for panah On correct, all in the same magical day.

Correct y.

You obviously heard the testimony that that happened at the kitchen table in your house.

It was in the kitchen.

In the kitchen, okay, So you agree with that.

I agree. I signed my name to mine in the kitchen and left.

Okay, And you indicated you just sign that. Yes, so you trust your mother.

I trust my mother seventy five eight percent. There's some parts of her I don't trust.

Okay, But you signed this document saying if you were to be killed or something happened to you, she would get your child.

Who else would I leave him to? I have no one else to leave him to.

Yeah, but it was dated twenty fifteen, and that's not when you signed those documents.

I didn't know what date was on it. I signed it early sixteen.

You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.

I don't know the exact date.

Yeah, well, obviously sometime after April third or twenty sixteen, because that was when it was printed.

Off the computer.

Could be I don't know the exact date, but it was sixteen. I didn't pay much attention to another seeing it had my signature.

And Jacineppa then showed George Wagner the custody documents that he signed. She once again pressed George and why he signed them without paying attention.

You could look at that and it's the document that signed, So that is.

Your signature, yeah, okay. And you see the date at the bottom there, yes, okay. And it's that consistent with your experience. As far as your computer spitting out the date something is printed.

Off the computer, I couldn't tell you, and I don't use computers that much.

But this is dated March eleventh or twenty fifteen. Yes, and it clearly was not signed in March eleventh or two fifteen.

No, I signed it the day it was printed off.

So I mean you realize it's forgery to backdate a document, right, yes, okay. And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document.

Yes, I can see that, Okay. I just don't see how me signing my name is forgery.

Well, it was backdated.

I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank, from what I can remember, when I signed.

My name, she just signed your name to a completely blank.

Document, to a custody document. She said, sign my name. I signed it, walked out.

But you wanted to leave your child with your mother.

If something was ever that happened to me? Yes, I had. There was no one else to leave it to him again.

You had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting that was going to be taken because.

It's something to do with law enforcement, and I was raised at law enforcements. Crooking tries to twist everything.

Well, you were raised to commit a lot of crimes.

I was not that it was right, but that's how I was raised. It took me a long time to realize that it was wrong.

And that no matter when did you realize that?

When I realized that my dad was wrong and it was actually hurting people.

So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right, the stealing of stuff out of the traitors, Yes, but you didn't swear off a life of crime just that particular when you realize there actually were victims.

Indeed, I went with the stealing fuel and loads. I quit in late fourteen. I believe the last thing I can remember doing, aside from deer hunting, that was being considered illegal, was the Duramax being. Rick asked after that it was just dear honey.

Despite his claim of changing his ways and leaving his life of crime behind him, Angie Caineppa questioned George Wagner about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including using a fake address to get his trucking license.

You that.

So it's an application for a driver's license, correct?

Yes? Okay?

And what address did you put down there?

Ok?

Okay? That is not where you were living.

No, it's my grandmother's form, I remember. Correct, it has something to do with l right, now, that's why used that address.

Well, you're providing false information to a state agency. Correct.

Yes.

Prosecutor Angie Caineppa then showed George Wagner a series of gun receipts and purchase forms.

So you know that you have to put accurate information on those forms, correct, Yes, it's a federal offense not to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, okay, So if you could go ahead and look at it and tell us what address you put down there?

It's eight or five Vessel Hill.

Rid Okay, but that's not relived.

Not the time my license had expired, and when I bought my firearms, I was advised just to use what was on the driver's license. I had then taking time to change it.

Actually, that's not permitted.

That's what that was advised five other people I bought them from. They said to put the addresses on my license.

You understand that making any false, oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony. Yes, under federal law. Yes, but at least three, at least these three forms, you did not provide accurate information correct.

As far as the driver's license address up.

After George Wagner admitted lying on government firearm forms, Kneppa move to point out other key discrepancies and George Wagner's testimony, particularly around when he went to bed the night of the murderers.

Prosecutors saying twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone to bed at twelve thirty am on the night of the murders after watching a movie with his family. However, in his testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm.

You said that the night of the homicides you went to bed at ten o'clock.

Can issue if I remember correctly, It's been.

A long time, okay, all right, and so do you recall again being interviewed at the border and saying that the four of you, well, the six of you. Actually, your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself were watching a movie and you were up until you didn't go to bed till twelve thirty.

Don't remember what kime was. Okay.

Do you remember telling the border at the border, the agents when they asked you about what you did that night, you saying that your mom had fixed cheeseburgers for you and how delicious they were, and she makes the best and maybe one day she could make them for them.

I don't remember that now. I'm not saying I didn't say. I just said I don't remember.

Okay.

You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember what a movie that wanted to watch.

I just I remember watching a movie of the kids at this point, I don't remember what it was. It's been a long time.

And you indicated that that is when your son would usually go to sleep as well.

My son usually went to sleep ten or eleven usually. Okay, there is what I can remember.

Is there a reason that you would lie to the people at the border.

I'm not saying I did. I'm saying I don't remember what time to like told them that, Okay, I mean it may have been I just from my remembory. Now, I remember going to bed around tennish. I could be wrong about that, that's what I remember.

Yeah, Well, because now we know that Chris Senior and Gary were being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't know that. You don't know that up. No.

Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George participated in the murders. However, Jake said that George did not fire any shots.

You don't know that. That's when your dad had Chris call his phone and you saw the phone calls.

Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I don't know when Chris had.

Died, right, Okay, you know that's what Jake said.

I know my brother's time is off on everything that's been showed in here.

So now we know, at least according to Jake, that Chris Senior and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock.

Right.

I think that's what he said, which makes your story at the border impossible.

Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I said to the border.

Well, I assume you were trying your best to tell the truth when you were interviewed.

At the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered.

Okay, I'm not interested as much as what you said, as much as do you agree that it would be more accurate back then.

I can't agree yes or no because I just don't know.

Okay, you agree that you were trying to be honest with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to lie to them.

Yes, I agree on that you certainly weren't trying.

To provide a cover story for you and your brother and your father and your mother. Right, So this whole idea that we're going to coordinate our response and say that we were all together a family night movie night watching, watching a video. Surely you didn't just make this up when you told no the people at the border. It just happened to be the same story that you guys had agreed in advance to tell.

There was no agreement in advance. My dad came down, my kid didn't want him to leave.

So your story today or yesterday is that you actually went to that at ten.

From what I remember at this point in time, I believe it was tannish.

Okay, So how could Jake and your father have been up on the hill killing Chris Senior and Geary less than an hour after you went into your bedroom.

I can't answer that. I don't know.

Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at Local twelve.

When George Wagner testified that he went to bed at ten o'clock, the two special prosecutors, Angela Kaneppa and Andy Wilson looked at each other almost like pointed at each other like, haha, we have not heard what George had to tell Ohio BCI when they stopped the family at the Montana border on their way back from Alaska in May June twenty seventeen. They have not played a lot of that. They have not played any of that. They played some of jakes, they played Angela's, but they've not

The prosecution also hammered George Wagner on other red flags as well. This included denying any knowledge that Jake owned a Walther Colt twenty two pistol.

Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two?

No?

Has your brother ever owned one?

Too? More knowledge? No?

So his testimony he had this for more than a year. You were unaware of that.

If he's owned it that long, I didn't know about it.

Okay, Well, obviously there's a picture of him holding that weapon in two thousand fifteen.

Now I see what the pictures his the back then. I didn't think.

That he hid it from you. What is it he hit it from you?

If he's had it that long, he must have.

Why she's got a curiosity. Why would you do that? Because you guys keep those your guns in your safe right.

According to my brother's statement, he said that he'd owned every one of them guns on that list, and I've not seen over half of what's under his name.

You feel to answer the question, you guys, keep your guns in.

Your safe, correct most of them.

So you're saying he owns guns you don't know of.

I'm saying it's possible. I've owned hundreds of young.

Over a year. He owned a gun and you were oblivious to it.

It's very well possible.

Here again journalist James Pilcher.

George has said he never saw and has never seen the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two caliber that was used in the murders, even though agen Scheider texted them a picture of Jake holding it that they got off at Jake's phone, so they'd never seen that gun before. Ever, he bought that handgun had a gun show in Columbus a couple of years before the murders at the end of January, on the same day that George bought a

During one of his conversations with Jake after the murders, George was recorded by BCI agent complaining that Jake could not tell a lie. All this with George insisting that Jake destroy evidence.

And you actually talk about that with Jake again, about how his my whole life, I've been in trouble with you because of you telling on everything and telling honesty. Yes, And everybody says, my anger mouth is going to get us in trouble, but it's always been your honesty that gets us in trouble. Correct. And you say, children, you have to tell on yourself, children, you have to tell on me.

Yeah, as we're children, that's what I'm referring to his eyes, when we're children.

And you also tell him that he should have gotten rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes, and again that's because we got a lot of evidence from those items.

My understanding of it was that he kept saying, you guys were twisting stuff that you found on it to try and frame him.

Let's stop here for another break. Nearing the end of her cross examination, Prosecutor Anjacineppa brought up George's long history of calling female family members derogatory names. This included one incident where George complained about Jake's four year old daughter.

This is the call where you said she can't keep her nose out of somebody else's life. She being yes, and George, she's four years old. Yes, you said she does anything deliberate you to try and crush him deliberately. Bitch got to ruin everything. You referred to your niece, your four year niece, as a bitch because she was.

I'll explain this before five six days with no sleeping caffeine. You say stuff you don't really mean.

Yeah, you said a lot of things.

Makes you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my son that she had a new mom and he didn't.

You called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother, Frederica a crazy whore.

I don't remember that.

You don't remember telling your mom to calm that crazy hor down.

I don't remember that conversation, am I saying as possible? Yeah, I've probably said something like that. I've said a lot of stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean, but I've said it because I've been days without sleeping, massive amounts of caffeine.

Sure, And I mean you called Randa, I think a lazy crackhore.

I think I've called her that more than once, okay.

And you told the agents at the border that you thought that Hannah turned into a.

Whore from what everybody else will say, okay.

And that was after she had left Jake.

Well everybody else was saying after she left Jake. To my understanding, I don't think she ever really did, but that's what everybody else will say, okay.

And you called certainly called Tabby a whore many times, and referred to Batman as a whore just like Tabby many times.

Here again, Antinnette Levy, he's calling his niece.

You know, I think he called his niece a bit.

She called his.

Sister in law horror, I mean, and he attributes that to you know, I drive on the road and I'm up a long time, and you know, drink caffeine, and I just think to myself, like I could see that.

I mean, I mean, I've been wound.

Up before and ranted and and said things and you know, you go.

Off on a.

Tirade, but at the same time, in one of my tirades are rants. I've not spoken about a four year old child like that.

Unable to explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George Wagner pushed back against angiecin Eppu's questions. He insisted in one of the most tense exchanges of the day, that his mother and brother are lying, and.

My mom and brother are lying to you.

They have been like everybody else, Like everybody else is lying, like Tabitha is lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody to talk about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you.

I did not say Chelsea is lying. I said she's mistaken.

Right, And even though you've not managed to tell us anything consistent with what you told the agents at the border in twenty seventeen, you're the one that's telling the truth.

I don't remember exactly everything I said the border.

That's not the question. The question is what you're saying does today is not consistent with what you've said at the border.

Ye. I can't say if you guse or not because I don't remember everything I've said there.

But everybody else is lying.

I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about that night. We're gonna mistake in one. They're confusing two different events into one.

Angie Caneppa trying to trip up George, and he comes across as very calm, very prepared, very even keeled. Does it work again? He only needs to convince one juror that he is telling the truth and that Jake and his mom are lying. Caneppa is trying to rattle him, but it just doesn't really seem to work. And at the same time, Kinnepa makes the point for George to be telling the truth, a lot of other people need to be lying, which is a good point because Jake

They may have practiced a script to some degree before they're arrests. They might have been planning for this moment all along.

But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner are both.

The state's witnesses, so that means they've been working with the prosecution and their team to figure out what.

They're going to say on the stand. In conversation with Mike.

Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately about coaching witnesses on what they're going to say, But we do know they can prepare them, and prepare them they do. They spend hours talking over every single possible detail.

Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.

We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I think it ultimately comes down to its what George said versus what Angela Jake said like that is what I think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see it that same way or yeah?

I mean it would come down to credibility from George and Angela, And I think the credibility goes with Angela because George any number of times just said I don't recall, I don't remember, I didn't count him up, but there are a lot of times that he said that and I don't recall hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony

And also, I mean, it's Jake and Angela. They have not communicated, so it's not like their comparing notes. If their stories lineup, isn't that must be worth a lot more than George by himself.

No question about it. Because they were kept separate. There's no way they could get together out in the hallway and they get their story straight. So yeah, that, I mean, that gives them I think, another reason why they have the greater credibility here.

But the prosecution wasn't quite done highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments.

You indicated that you wanted to kill Special Agent Schier. Correct. I said that, yes, okay, Jake didn't threaten him. Jake did not threaten him, not to my knowledge. You remember telling your brother that you should go to BCI and tell them that he'll he'll rat you guys out because he's the biggest rat there is.

Yes, I remember that, okay.

And do you remember also telling your mother, let me tell you something. I love you the only reason and I'm sorry you're gonna hate when I say this. Everything that you and dad have ever gotten in trouble for with them mother frickers. The only reason they ever got away with that craft was because every time somebody caved, everybody crumbled. I ain't caving and I ain't crumbling. Do you remember saying that?

Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly.

The conversation, okay, And that was played in overcourt.

Thanks, so ya, okay?

And is that your philosophy? You don't gave and you don't crumble.

Now, for what I believe you're trying to say it as wow, I.

Don't specimically you're talking about anytime they got in trouble with law enforcements because somebody cracked.

I don't believe you should plead out to something you didn't do.

After the prosecution ended their cross examination of George Wagner, his defense attorney John Parker once again re asked him several questions about the murders.

George, just a few follow up questions, probably been along a couple of days before you, hasn't it appairly?

George?

Did you ever see Jake by the nineteen eleven No?

Did you know he owned one?

No?

One.

Did you go up on Union Hill Road and participate in these murders in any way?

No?

Did you plan these murders?

No?

Did you know they were going to have?

No?

Did you know after the murders that they in fact your family had been involved?

No? Not until my rubbish proffert.

And did you know did you ever go out to Left Fork Road where.

Kid was killed?

No?

Has anybody paid you anything for your testing?

No?

Has anybody given you anything for your testimony?

Now?

Did the state off you a plea bargain for your testiment?

No?

Are you telling the truth?

Yes?

Your life is on the line.

Yes?

Are you telling the truth?

Yes?

As you answer to God?

Yes?

And if you yes, with one last chance to potentially trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked him what happens to him if he admits to killing the Rodents?

What happens to you if you come in here and admit that you and your brother and your father went up to Union Hill Road that night and then out to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds, two of them with babies in the bed with them that, from all testimony, were actively nursing their infants. What happens to you if you come in here on that stand and.

Admit to that, do you want to hear? Answer? Well, I feel it should happen to anybody that would do that.

I want to know what happens to you if you come in hear and admit that.

What should happen to anybody is they should have death given to them.

And the biggest difference you agree between you and your brother is that when he does wrong things, he tells about it and you.

Don't when we were children.

Yes, question, you may step down now.

Since there's no DNA evidence connecting George Wagner to any of the crime scenes, jurors will have to decide who they believe him or Jakein and his mom Angela, who have already said under oath that George Wagner was part of the plot to kill multiple people.

More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kati Underscore Studios. The Pithon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music by Jared Aston. The Pike did Maascer is a production