Finale: What’s Next?

few questions that we felt needed to be discussed. We also invited a group of our regular contributors to join reporters James Pilcher and Angeanette Levy, as well as forensics expert Joseph Morgan. Welcome to the finale. It's been quite a surprising season. It's been a shocking season, I think yeah. I mean we started with a crazy turn of events, and now as we're learning more about the accused and the victims themselves, there's never a moment where I'm not

prized by this case and what happened. And I think as we learn more and as these trials start to happen, I think that's only going to continue. That is The thing that I think I loved most about this season is some of the unexpected turns that we took. Really this show sort of unfolded real time, obviously starting with the initial plea with Jake Wagner, but then also we've done a couple of stories that were guided by listeners that we dug into to really look at the area.

We really spend a lot of time this week digging into questions that we've been following along the way over the course of both seasons. The three top things we got were what are the details of what happened in Alaska? Where is Jake's wife Elizabeth? And who is the informant? And those questions drive each of us every day, and we do not know the answers, and we and journalists and experts have been digging, and the answers thus far have been impossible to come by, but that will not

remain the case forever. We had a conversation today with two people that hopefully we can report back on that is mind blowing. And you know, that's a little bit of a piece of the puzzle. Right as we produce this podcast, as we produce anything, there are certain conversations that happened on the record. There are certain that happened

off the record. Obviously, legally speaking, we have to have perfect releases in order for us to air certain pieces of information, you know, gossip, conjecture, things that are a matter of non fact are not usable and because of the gag order at this exact second, it's maddening because we get to speak to certain people and we're not able to share that information. Mike from Asheville, North Carolina wrote, why did you guys do all these breakoff episodes like

the Michael Moran's story and the Curtis Francis story. Listeners wrote into us and gave us a heads up to be looking into these stories deeper, which was fascinating because truthfully, I don't know that we would have gone down that path had listeners not reached out and alerted us to other stories that were happening in the area, which really does speak to the totality of crime in a really

specific pocket of the country. They definitely spoke to this theme of injustice in the community, and I mean, these were happening in the rodent's backyard, and so to not mention them would feel like we were not telling the complete story of this community. And like the Rodent case, the Curtis Francis case is so complicated and so tragic, and the benefit of having a season two is really

being able to explore some of these stories more. In the same way we were able to expand on the Rodent's story at the Gilly story, we were able to do that with Curtis Francis, which is an honor to be able to do that. And so my question to you, James, so you report extensively on Michael Moran, why was that story important to you and how, if it all, does

it relate back to the Rodent case? As I said in the episode, and I still feel this that I feel I owe the women the truth that you know, there's was a part of me looking at it from my male, white, privileged perspective that this stuff didn't really happen. You know, I had no idea, so I almost didn't believe it at first, and so when I found out it was true, it became like almost a mission of mine to say, you know what, more people need to know about this kind of thing. So that's for the

Moran story specifically and sex trafficking. I've done subsequent stories about sex trafficking in the numbers state by state. So yeah, that's been a major focus of mine since I started reporting this story. As a legal disclaimer, we should note that Michael Moran has been arrested on charges including human trafficking and promoting prostitution. He has pleaded not guilty to all charges and denied any ties to sex trafficking. He's

currently awaiting trial. How it relates back, you know, I wouldn't say that, you know, there's not a direct correlation between the Wagner's and Michael Moran, or the Rodents and Michael Moran. I think it just gets to the aspect of rural America that most people don't see, and that law enforcement in that part of the country and these parts of the country just isn't equipped to handle these multifaceted, in depth, complicated investigations. And you guys covered it when

you covered the Hopper Road episode. I completely admire what Jodie Barr did with the Hopper Road story and how even if they don't get a conviction, at least people have an understanding of what might have happened. Start out to Jodie Barr for what he did in that story, because he really did. He changed people's lives, you know exactly. You know, I saw something today. I won't name the publication, but there's a story out there saying that true crime

is booming and whatever. But it is nothing more than a love letter to law enforcement. And I want to write the author and said, have you listened to any of this? Have you listened to some of the stuff that you guys have done and some other my colleagues have done. No, this is about unsolved. Why isn't this mystery solved? So I completely You know, there are people who think, oh, true crime is nothing more than making the cops look good. Well, no, I completely disagree with that.

It's as much about holding the cops accountable as it is about telling the stories of the victims. And by the way things go away in the night, if nobody's talking about something, it just gets swept under the rug. And likely when you take a closer look, which we get the benefit of doing in a podcast of again the totality of the abuse of power, or a real look at how things are being covered and are they being covered enough? And are these cases being highlighted enough?

You know, oftentimes listen investigators are investigating as much as they can and as fast as they can. We get the benefit of being a little bit courtside and taking even a closer look with the benefit of tons of time. And the hope really always is so hopefully move the needle to either move a case forward and or to make sure it doesn't happen again. Zach from Wilmington, Delaware asked have there been efforts to reach back out to the Wagner family members whatever happened to Deray the Wagner

relative from season one. We've spoken to Deray numerous times since the hearing. She was one of our first phone calls, and it is obviously very raw for her. I mean, she spent, as listeners know, a lot of time proclaiming her family's innocence, and Deray I think is heartbroken and that is the only way to put it. And she declined to participate this season because I think she is not sure how to feel and how even if she was sure how to feel, how to even explain that

to the masses. Could you imagine anything more horrifying? Of course, we defend our families, and my understanding was I'm not sure if Deray had directly spoken to Jake, but I know that Jake was giving the impression to at least his grandmother that he was innocent, and so they were shocked that all of a sudden, he's in the courtroom saying the opposite of that. So you know what I spoke to Deray the day of the hearing. She was confused. She thought, did someone put him up to this? Is

he not in the right frame of mind. She wasn't sure what was going on because this was not the

person that she had known for his entire life. So my question, a Jeanette, is what has your experience been reaching out to the Wagner family members if you have, well, I've only really reached out to the lawyer's Billy Wagner's lawyer got back to me very politely and just you know, said that anytime there's a crime with multiple defendants, you know that one of them may or may not, So you don't see that there's always that chance and they're going to look at the case that type of thing.

I didn't really reach out to Frederica or anything like that. Anytime I've done that, it's not been fruitful. So I just didn't see any points I've reached out in the past, and she doesn't say anything. Frederica Wagner had been very vocal and speaking to the press, and as of today, she has not said one thing publicly about her family. Jake has played out, So I'm curious what's going on with her personally and also what the implications will be

in the upcoming trials. Same with Rita Joe Nukam, Angela's mother. I'm personally fascinated by the grandmothers. Frederica seems to be a complicated person. I mean, Frederica, as we know, is a staple in the community in terms of her presence with real estate and businesses. I just think about the ripple effects of the crime and how it's going to affect Pike County for years to come. Angie from Carl's Bad New Mexico wants to know how covering this story,

how has it affected you personally or professionally. I would say I think it makes me think about trust, certainly about who you have in your life and the relationships you have, because whether it's Jake and Hannah Rodin's relationship or it's now Jake Wagner and the rest of his family, I think it is a little bit be careful who you trust. Yeah, this is one of those real cases of the boogeyman is not out there, it's in your circle. And not only in your circle. These were people that

were really close friends. The Wagoners and the Rodents. We know we're extremely tight, way more than was earlier reported. So I think for all of us, that's been the nauseating element here. That's been the part that you can't kind of shake where you think you'd have a sixth sense about it, or you would meet somebody and you would know they're they're bad news, they're going to bring very bad things to our family. Yet that wasn't the

case at all. They were at the same wedding, hugging and chummy and you know, really shared beautiful times together. So at what point does that tip over? I think has been a real fascination of ours. And then I'd oppose the same thing to you, Joseph. Let me just say in twenty sixteen, I've been you know, kind of neck deep and covering crime for a while now on a lot of that works and whatnot, really big cases, and there there were a lot of big cases in

twenty sixteen, But I have to confess. When the road in case hit, I was actually covering it with HLN and Nancy Grace and we've gone on to you know, to talk about it. Nancy and I have extensively on air and particularly at that time. And one of the things that struck me about it being a guy that comes from these rural routes like I do, you know, kind of the country mouse comes a big city kind of thing. I've never seen or heard of anything like

that in my entire life. I was just amazed. And then when you go out to those locations, you get out and you look at this property and I don't know the word, I'd say emptiness, but there's a vacancy to it. And you know that you get out there and you see what may have been there and it's no longer there Isn't that really really something that kind of resonates with you, you know how how it leaves this this huge scar throughout that community. You know, this

this vacancy, but yet it's it's haunted. It's haunted and a you know, not I'm not saying that in a sense of, you know, some kind of ghost tale or something. I'm saying it's a haunted place. In this sense, this is a kind of event that years from now, kids are going to be sitting around campfires, you know, fifty years from now, and they're going to be saying, hey, you want to hear a ghost story. You want to hear about the worst thing that ever happened. And so

right now it's a very urgent thing. We'll waiting on trials and all this will thing, but then it leaps over and into into the mythology of a place, and that's going to happen. That will happen, and this will be something that will be rememberable. We're going to take a quick break here, we'll be back in a moment. And has covering this case had an impact on any way you report now or has it affected you personally

or professionally. I think that's hard to answer. I think, you know, some stories change the way you report or make you look at things differently. You know. I kind of approached this like I approached any story. I just wanted to know the truth and figure out what happened and try to help you know, if we could bring some light to what happened. So, I mean it was

very sad to me. I mean I it was just it's just awful when you would watch the family and go individuals and stuff like that, and you would see what they were going through. And there were sometimes where I felt like the family wasn't treated very well by some media. You know. I feel like I tried to always treat them, the family, the Roden family, with kindness, as I do everybody on a story with unless they're you know, like a politician and then you chase them

down straight or whatever. But I just feel like it maybe gave me a greater appreciation for the loss that people really suffer, just because of the children involved in this,

of course, but just you know, just the senseless. This is like truly you hear people say, well it was senseless, Well, and all killings are pretty much senseless, but this was really really on another level, and so I think the humanity just talking to Leonard Manly and seeing the pain that it brought him and his family, and seeing Geneva Rodin and you could just see the pain on her face when she would come to court, just dutifully coming

to court. You know, there's no elevator out there at the Pike County Courthouse, so she has to like walk up those stairs each time with her cane and she has a bad foot, and in telling this story, just really so try to focus the best you can on the loss, or at least bring that through in the storytelling.

I feel like I learned something from every story I cover, and it probably changes me in some ways, you know, you learn and e Bold, I know a couple of you are parents, and it sounds so cliche, but it's so true, Like even you know, when I have my mind in this case particularly, it really makes you grateful for what you have, knowing what can be lost like that. Oh yeah, I would agree with you one hundred percent

on that. And I feel for those kids. Obviously I don't know any of these children, but just the thought of children growing up not knowing their parents now because of this that's going to happen. I try to keep my emotions separate, but it's hard. You know, sometimes you come home and you look at your own children and you just think, God, what would happen if my child was left because of that? And you try to really put yourself in that place, and it's just I can't

even imagine. I just hope this kids are going to grow up and be Okay. You know, we get up in the morning every day and think about people who we've never met, and think about families who we never will outside of the interviews that we have the benefit

of doing. And I can speak for all of us to say, if you speak to a person, whether it's on a phone or on a zoom or eye to eye in the same room, and their entire family has been slaughtered, and they can sit before us and tell their tale and have the wherewithal and the composure to be able to push on in their world. Certainly we can tell their stories, and we also can push on in our worlds. And I think that's very inspiring in a way. We've been wildly inspired by this case in

ways I can quite describe. The Rodent family has become a piece of our DNA. Do we know for sure George's trial will be next and do we know what the order is? Yet? All we know is that George's trial is the only one who's been scheduled. They might schedule Mom and Dad earlier than that. They could still do that. They very well could still do that, But as of right now, the only one we know of is next spring. We're going to have a trial unless

there's a plea deal. These prosecutors have been dealing with this case for years, so I assume they've got some type of game plan, or they think they know who could go next, or who they want to potentially offer something too next. I mean, I'm sure they have a plan. I don't know that they have a plan. I'm just kind of surmising, you know, I'm sure they've thought about this over the years. I think it's so compelling to

better understand how one trial will influence the other. It is unusual to have four now trials of family members back to back, so imagine one trial, of course, impacts the other, and the bombs that come along with that. Particularly Jake Wadner facing off for the first time as now stipulated in his plea agreement, that he will testify against his own mother, his own brother, his own father, is mind blowing. There's no way this can play out

in any universe that is not shocking. If they are turning on each other, that is a piece of the equation that we really never thought would happen until Jake appeared at that hearing. How do you throw your son under the bus, and how does your son throw his own mother under the legal bus. That is a legal mess, and I'm so curious to see how it plays out. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back

in a moment. Colleen from Aspen, Colorado asked, what do you think is going to be the end result of the case when all is said and done. Are there going to be any more surprises? I would predict at this point they're all found guilty, and I think there's probably no plea deal, and we're going to see these trials happen one or the other, starting with George. I think it'll be starting with Angela. Wagner and George will follow, and Angela's trial will set the stage for the remaining two.

If Jake is lying, is that a possibility to anybody that Jake is lying? I don't know. I mean, if what they said is true over that ten to eighteen hour confession, if that's indeed you know the story and he said it was all true and he led them to murder weapons and the vehicle used. That's some pretty compelling evidence. So you know, there may be another domino or two to fall, and maybe there will be somebody that ficks it out. And says no, I'm going to

roll the dice and go to trial. I've said it before. They're either, you know, with Jake's deal, that's pen leaves off the table. So you either plead guilty and get life in prison, or you roll the dice and get convicted and get life in prison, or you roll the dice and get a hung jury. So but kind of how I look at it, James, will there be any more surprises? Well, I think it depends on your definition of surprise. Jake pleading guilty a few months ago that

was a surprise. At this point with that on the table, I don't think anything would be surprising. I don't necessarily think someone deciding to stick it out to say yeah, I'm going to go to trial would be surprising, or pleading out would be surprising. I think it's going to depend on how hard and which we link the prosecutors decide to push on where they see the weak links, if they see a weak link, I mean, they're all being kept in separate prisons, and they're all being kept

with separate counsel. Now those counsel can talk to each other, but the wagoners can, So I don't know at this point, nothing surprised would surprise me in this case anymore apart from they went to trial and got a not guilty verdict, that would be a shocker. A really really sincere thanks for your time, information, passion, all of it really on behalf of Katie Studios. Just thank you to the listeners.

You know, we hit number one in all categories because people kept tuning in and as we talked about, led us in the right direction in terms of other things to be discussing and unpacking. So thank you. As we bring season two to a close, one piece of the puzzle has been solved. Jake Wagner changed just pleaded guilty and said he was responsible for five of the eight

Rodent family member deaths. What plead you wished to hit her at Gel seven to Jake Wagner faces life behind bars and has disclosed details of the plot to kill the Roden family to authorities. He told us let us to discover some evidence that had yet to be recovered, specifically the weapons that were used in these offenses. He's also implicated his family and the gruesome murders Billy Wagner, Angela Wagner, and George Wagner. The fourth all still face charges,

including aggravated murder. Jake Wagner has actually agreed to testify against his mother, his father, and his older brother, while Angela, Billy, and George Wagner continue to maintain their innocence. Questions remain. Angela Wagner was a suspected mastermind of the conspiracy to kill eight members of the Roden and Gillie family. Prosecutors say the Wagners lived an insular life focused on control of children and the young women who entered their lives.

But with judgment day for accused brother George Wagner, the fourth just around the corner. George Wagner's trial date has been said for twenty two. What will happen in the meantime is anyone's guests. Will there be another plea deal? It'll be interesting to see where this case goes from here. Now they have someone who is cooperating, they have someone who can give them specific evidence. What exactly is Jake

going to say in the stand. It's going to be interesting to watch what happens with a few Could grandmother Rita Nucam make an appearance on the witness stand. Nucom is a notary and prosecutors say she forged guardianship documents three weeks before the Rodents were murdered. The fine details of this plea agreement are under sealed with the court, so it's still a question about whether or not Newcome will be required to testify at the trials, or will

grandmother Fredericco Wagner end up back in court. The seventy seven year old Wagner faced two felony charges, obstructing justice and perjury. I've never lied about anything. I was innocent. They had no evidence against me. She can be charged again in this case later, perhaps most importantly, will the victims families finally see closure in the case. Our family will never stop trying to bring whoever did this to justice. One thing is for sure. There's much more on the

horizon in this case just keeps on coming. I still wonder if there was much more to this that we don't know, and what would drive someone to do what happened here. There's still to me a whole lot of un answered questions here. More on that next season, but check in next week when we'll be bringing you a special bonus episode before the break for more information on the case and relevant photos. Follow us on Instagram at

Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The Piked in Massacre Returned to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.