Closing in on the Wagners

middle of George Wagner the Fourth trial. It's important to note that George Wagner the Fourth, along with his father Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, deny any wrongdoing and have pleaded not guilty to all charges. So far, there's been hours of testimony by investigators and relatives that have painted a very real portrait of what the crime scenes look like. But while prosecutors have laid out the grizzly details of the murderers, they have yet to connect George

Wagner the Fourth to the killings. We're in the state side of the case is a state ready to call another witness special prosecutor and jaw Kneppa call Special Agent John Jenkins of the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigations more commonly known as the BCI. Jenkins sports a trimmed goatee and looks every bit the veteran investigator he is. In twenty sixteen, just four months after the brutal murders, Jenkins

interviewed the Wagner family's father, Billy. You can find Billy Wagner's raw audio of his conversation with special agents on our Apple Plus True Crime subscription page. A link to that page is included in this episode's description. Today's attention turned to a police interview with the defendant's father, Billy Wagner. He was best friends with one of the victims, Chris Roden. I mean his interview, he provide some insights that could not only help the prosecution, but could also be useful

for the defense. BCI agents had spent months trying to speak to Billy Wagner. Jenkins testified that Wagner seemed to be avoiding them. We want to talk to him because of the fact of his relationship with and Hannah, but also weird started to at this time get tips and leaves that there might have been some issues with some custody reference, and that task became difficult due to the fact that when we stopped by the house, Billy wasn't

always there. In September of twenty sixteen, BCI agents finally tracked down Billy Wagner outside a grocery store and was this interview with Billy Wagner recording? Yes, it was audio recorded. If this timing runner, I would like to play that recording for the journey. I just want to talk with you about the Rodent murders, okay, and so, um, you know, we've been out talking with people, you know, all kinds of you know, tips get called in our office and all that, and so your name has come up and

you know, and tips and things like that. So we just want to find whatever you want to. Just be honest with us. I'll tell you whatever I can do to help get out. As the audio recordings began, Jenkins, wearing a blue blazer and white shirt, lowered his head and sat listening to the conversation. Billy Wagner was first asked about his relationship with Chris Roden Senior. Wagner insisted he and victim Chris Rodin were very close. You know, Chris was my best friend, all right, man him, you know,

we run around all the time. But I want to talk about Chris. Don't call up. He didn't tell anybody enough. He can't be too business to yourself. And I want to tell you straight up, I don't care what he done. He was my friend. He'd done everything for me, Okay, you know, and Chris rode up, I mean scroubs for everything. He had worked his ass off and he worked every day. You know his shit. They're making him out like some damn big gangsters, a bunch of shit, Okay, okay, And

now I wanted to talk with the other thing. You know, he wasn't no thingkay. But Chris never hurt nobody. I'll tell you whatever I can do to help you out. And we're not concerned about anything other than the murders. So you know, we've talked with different people. Different people have different involvement. You know. You know you've you've read the paper. Uh, you know you've seen the news. I'm

not worried about all that. I'll tell you whatever you need to know, Okay, I'm just saying, you know, there was gross down and I want to tasting the right off the bat. You didn't know Chris, all right, most of the shit they're talking about it with a bunch of bullshit life. Okay, I mean Chris, he'd give you the shirt off his back. Well we've heard that, you know he he you know, he was absolutely you know, we're what nobody else like him? Oh Chris, I said, he is my best grand wel also said he and

Chris Rodin had spoken the night he was killed. Last time my talk came and he seemed all right, was the night before all happened, and I said, hey, man, i'll talk. He's more. And then next morning, you know, all hell broke Los BCI agents s Wagner, who he thought committed the murderers. Billy Wagner floated the possibility that Chris Roden Senior might have vowed money to drug dealers. Ain't a bunch of hell billys do something like that? And well, you know, sorry, never convinced me. You know,

hat's like some fieldeen six. Okay, but your bottom feeding sounds pitches right. Well, yeah, you know your bottom feeders, I mean, every damn one of them. I mean they're on that freaking ship. And I mean it killed r Dan Braham all for five dollars. And you know, I told crab, you know, got to fuck you know, shouldn't suck around fact shit. But you know, because it just and it ain't too much. You know, who care? You know what happened to the dumb affors doing it? But

you know it's a ship that they did. Investigators again pressed Billy Wagner about his relationship with victim Chris Roden Senior, specifically if they had gotten into a fight a few weeks prior to the murders. We had heard someone had called and said, and then listen, I'm not trying to I don't care. I don't care what you are. You play it on me, O day because you or Chris actually got into a fight about a week or two prior to the murders and said that you'd pulled a

gun on him. Yeah, okay, absolutely not. Didn't happen? Good nappen? Day? Well, no, let's just saying that you've got into an argument, wasn't now and then you sort of then you pulled a gun on him, and you said I don't care about Chris. Throughout the nearly two hour conversation Wagner tried repeatedly to shift the investigator's attention away from himself and his family. You're looking in the wrong damn direction. You new to

be going to have what. At one point, Billy Wagner even mentioned he'd heard Hannah Rodin was seeing a sheriff and said someone had seen a sheriff's car parked on Union Hill Road. Somebody said that she was singing a deput sheriff up here in Waverley. I don't know who he is, and he every time I heard that there was a sheriff sitting at the end of Union Hill all night. So I don't know if that's I don't know,

but that's just what I heard. Later, when agents mentioned the marijuana growing on Chris Roden's property, Billy Wagner denied any involvement in the drug business. Now, other people have told us that they thought that you and Chris were business partners. No, now, if Chris you know now, I'm gont bullshit. I Chris. I don't care what Chris asked me to do. Yeah, if he asked me do something, I'd do it for him, because he'd do anything for me,

you know. He you just you just don't you way you can understand that, I understand if you Christons, you know, like I said, we're daylight and dark, all right, but well you know pretty much you know, if he want to go do something, we go. If I want to go do something, he can go with me. You know it didn't matter. So but so you never hold any weed for no. No, I hold a lot of cars for him, hauled a lot of cars, like would you

hold him round? Go down drear down there in code arts and get him for him and bring him up. Investigators return to rumors of illegal drugs and a possible drug deal that Chris Roden Senior was potentially involved with, and who Billy Wagner alleged might have had a reason to kill Chris Roden Senior. It's important to note that George Wagner's allegations against Skid Montgomery are not substantiated. Here's Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa picking up her questioning of ah

and Jenkins. There's talk in during that conversation between you and mister Wagner, and he keeps referring to a person named m Yes, that's correct, and can you tell us who Latham is sure so during that during that interview, mister Wagner, as you've heard, but it would keep referring to an individual name Lathe Latham and basically who he

was referring to as an individual named Skid Montgomery. Skid Montgomery lives in around the Latham area, owns a lot of property in the in the Pike County area, and we'd learned through the investigation that there was always rumor that Skid Montgomery was a big, large scale marijuana dealer and that he would put hits out on people and

especial agent Jenkins. Obviously, Billy talked to you about an alleged business deal where Chris was expected to get a large a large chunk of marijuana and indicated that it would represent a lot of money and that would put people out of business. Correct, that's correct, Okay, and specifically indicated that he felt that that would be upsetting to Latham slash Skid mcgoming. That's correct. Yes, here's Stephanie and Jeff. It's very compelling to hear the voice of accused father

Billy Wagner. Hearing this interview that has been spoken about so often was fascinating. Some people say that he was rambling in this interview and trying to lead investigators in a different direction and throw some tidbits at them to get them off his track. But frankly, in listening to it, I thought he felt pretty common cooperative. He was just being stopped outside of a grocery store and cut two.

He's in a two hour interview. Well, Steff, based on what we've heard about the Wager's movements after the murders, I think it stands to reason that they probably weren't anticipating talking to law enforcement at some point and probably had a bit of a script or a plan for

when that did happen. I mean, because Billy very quickly was throwing out unsubstantiated rumors about nineteen year old victim Hannah may Or, pointing away from himself towards the grow operation, and even bringing up Skid Montgomery like he already had a litany of things that he was going to kind of try to throw at the police to get the scent off of him and his family. Interesting that you

should say that, because yes, you're right. On the one hand, he's saying that Chris Senior was his very best friend and he would do anything for him, and that Chris would do anything for him. And to your point, on the other hand, he's essentially throwing him under the bus by pointing to the grow operation and denying that there was ever a big fight between them regarding custody and

kind of bringing him again back to Skid Montgomery. Even just hearing the name Latham aka Skid of Montgomery, and it legitimately makes the hairs in the back of my next stand up because we've been given this name so many times, both from listeners and people in and around the area. And again, Skid Montgomery is a very prominent landowner in Pike County and now here's Billy basically accusing him. Is this just Billy getting him off his tracks, or is it possible that there is some truth to that.

I have to assume that we're going to hear from Skid Montgomery at some point, and that he'll be a witness. I also thought it was interesting that Billy says there was a sheriff at the bottom of the road that

whole night that he had heard rumors of. That is he referring to Sheriff Reader And if so, I also have to assume that Sheriff Reader at some point will testify at this trial because his name comes up all the time, and as we know, he's currently serving time for unrelated charges for taking drug money illegally and using it for gambling, again completely unrelated. Nobody has associated him with these murders, but again these names keep coming up.

Well stuff. This is certainly an interesting preview of the trial to come. As we know Billy Wagner has pled not guilty and as a waiting trial, and so this is maybe just a little bit of a sneak peek at his upcoming legal proceedings. Also, even just him saying that me and Chris were best friends and that we were like daylight and dark. I thought that was such a curious statement, which one does he see himself as.

Despite efforts to shift the focus away from himself and his family, investigators walked away from their conversation with Billy Wagner with more questions than answers. Here's legal analyst Mike Allen. He didn't help himself listening to it. I really don't know what he was trying to do. I mean, obviously he was trying to shift the focus away from him and his family. I don't I don't think he was

very successful with it. That happens all the time. These people, some of them, they deceived themselves into thinking that, you know, they're the smartest criminal in the world, and you know they'll say, well if I if I say this to the police, or if I say something else to the police, there, that'll throw him off the trail doesn't happen. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. The investigative trail was beginning to point directly to the

Wagner family, though not necessarily to defendant George Wagner. Here's longtime investigative reporter James Pilcher in Cincinnati now with Local twelve. When are they going to point to George being part of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical evidence that they presented early on, I had any of the Wagoners too, any of these crime scenes. Outside the courtroom, questions were being asked about the prosecution's ability to link George Wagner

to the murders. That to me is the major issue here, right. I've been going for days in this trial, lots of evidence, lots of witnesses, but honestly, we have yet to hear any connection of George the fourth to these crimes. Following Special Agent John jenkins testimony, the defense requested for the third time in the trial there should be a mistrial. The defense argued the tapes of Special Agent Jenkins's interview with Billy Wagner should never have been played before the jury.

The defense argued the tapes had nothing to do with George Wagner and that the interview did not establish any proof of a conspiracy to commit aggravated murder. Special Prosecutor Angiekuneppas said that wasn't why the state played the interview with Billy Wagner at his son George's trial. Instead, she wanted the jury to see how BCI investigators ended up

focusing on the Wagner family. Of course, he's a rude emotions previously made on the record for miss trial and to exclude the tape or to strike the tape is defense council and the state ready to bring the jury up. Judge During ruled against the motion for a mistrial, and the prosecution called for the second time. BCI analyst Julia Evislage, the agent has long brown hair and is wearing a maroon red jacket. Evislage is sworn in and questioned by

Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa. Good afternoon. How are you? Good afternoon? If you want to go ahead and state your name again just for the record, Julia Evislage. Okay, And you previously testified in this case. Correct, that's correct, okay. And we've already discussed with you your current role at the Bureaucram of Investigations and your work in this case, specifically in analyzing records and other things that came that were

obtained percern to both subpoenas and search warts. Correct, yes, okay. And can you tell us when you go through records and such, is that information that you then share with the investigative team, Yes, okay? And in your experience, has that then inform their investigation in people that they are willing in or willing out? Yes? Okay. And can you tell us, Miss Everslage in this case, did you guys

obtain Facebook records of the victims? Yes, one of our cyber crimes agents obtained a search warrant for all of the Facebook accounts of the victims and we review those once the responses came in from Facebook. On the screen above, Evislage prosecutors pull up a spreadsheet of messages taken from Hannah Roden's Facebook account. Each entry is labeled with the time and date of the exchange. During that review of those Facebook records, did you find information in the Facebook

account belonging to Hannah May Roden? Yes? And can you

tell us why were they noteworthy to you? When we first started looking at Hannah's Facebook, we found some statements in there and some of her messages that seemed to be in direct conflict with things that we had heard and interviews, particularly with Jake Wagner's interview, and we noted just different different statements about abuse in the relationship, issues with the Wagner's being controlling, things like that, and then just her kind of sense of discomfort with the situation

with the custody of Okay and fears that they were trying to take from her. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. Last episode, we heard, among others, Tabitha Clayton, George Wagner's ex wife's testimony and her correspondence between Hanah May Rodin

and herself before she was murdered. Well, yeah, what's interesting about this is the messages between Hannah May and Tabitha, Georgia's ex wife talk about the fears of losing custody and the Wagner family making the young women signed documents that they don't want to be signed, kind of basically being coerced into signing. Attempted guardianship fraud was uncovered in the Pine County murder trial. Take a closer look at your screen here. I want to show you something that's

on that document. At the bottom of it, you can see a u RL to a website and there's a date on the paper. It shows someone ripped this document off a Texas government website in April of twenty sixteen, the same month someone murdered Hannah May and seven of her family members. Investigators say they've found that in the

Wagner's belongings. While the Wagner's told investigators there are no issues over custody of Jake and Hannah's daughter, analyst Julia Evislage pointed to additional Facebook messages that showed Hannah was scared of the Wagner's attempts to in custody of her daughter. One Facebook message stood out. It's the often spoken about conversation from December of twenty fifteen. That was between Hannahme Roden and George Wagner, the fourth's ex mother in law.

It's where Hannahme swears she will never sign papers to give up custody of her daughter. As for those Facebook messages to Hannah Wagner, one of those exchanges between Tabitha and Hannah Rodin actually took place on the very day that Hannah Roden was killed. Billy Wagner's interview and the Facebook messages showing the brewing custody battle between Hannah and Jake convinced investigators in late twenty sixteen they needed to shift their focus to the Wagner family. You need to

investigate that. That's important. That's a lead, that's something that needs to be ran down, specially Agent Ryan Scheiterer of the BCI led the two year investigation into the brutal killings. Scheiderer testified that he visited the Wagner's home on Peterson Road in May of twenty seventeen, just before the Wagners are set to move to Alaska. Is Angie Kneppa speaking with Agent Scheiderer, who is on the stand. When you arrived, you said, Jake and Angela and George were outside packing

along as in a trailer. Did all three of those individuals remain outside, No, they did not. George excused himself and went inside, and Jake and Angela remained outside. Yes, okay. And during that time, did you observe anything in the driveway that was of interest to you? Yes? Why speaking with Angela and Jake, they were willing to speak with us, They didn't ask us to leave. I just casually observed there was numerous fired cartridge caseines lying about the driveway.

All over the place. There was hundreds of thousands of cartridges laying around cases. And can you tell us a special agent scheider did you? Were you able to pick those items up and examine them close? No? Okay? And were you able to tell from your vantage point not bending over and picking them up or examined them closely? Did any of them appear to be of interest? Yes? So the crime scenes, we were aware that there was a forty caliber used. A forty caliber cartridge casing was

found at one of the crime scenes. You guys heard about that. We also knew that there was potentially a thirty caliber rifle that was used and twenty two long rifle. What I observed that day, I saw cartridge casings that appeared to be from a rifle. They weren't like a twenty two caliber rifles, so they weren't twenty two room fires, but they definitely weren't like two two threes or five five sixes. I just couldn't tell what caliber they were. And then I also saw cartridge cases that were or

casings that were consistent with pistol calibers. Specifically to me, it looked like they were nine millimeters or forty caliber. I couldn't tell from my vantage point. Obviously I'm standing up and I did not examine them. And can you tell us? Was there also a conversation with Jake regarding various punishments for this kind of a crime. Yes. On

one of the things that I like to do. When I'm talking to somebody that I suspect is involved in a crime i'm investigating, there's oftentimes I will ask that person, what do you think the appropriate punishment is for somebody that's accused of this crime? To elicit their response, so I did ask him that, okay, and what was his response? It depended on whether or not they were a triggered person. Following the visit. Investigators got a warrant to search the

Wagner property and their cell phones. Among the many communications they found were text messages between George Wagner and his father, Billy. One message was sent while BCI investigators were at the Wagner's home. Can you tell us if you saw anything of interest on Billy's phone? There was interesting text messages from George. Message number four is an inbox, which means it's a message to Billy and it is from George, his son, and it says, don't come down till I

text you got company. Here's Stephanie. None of this ties George Wagner to the crimes. I also thought it was interesting that when police arrived to their home and George went inside, and they later took Billy's phone and he had texted to George to stay inside. Was he protecting him from police? Was Jake protecting his brother? When he said what should happen to the people who committed this crime? And he said depends on who the trigger puller was?

But again a strange answer. Retrospectively, since he's now taken a polea agreement saying that he was in fact a trigger puller is that a way of protecting George, because so far compelling as all of this is, none of it really does tie George to the crime. But Jake Wagner's phone included far more incriminating evidence. Once again, the messages were displayed on a large TV screen above the witness box. Did you also look at Jake's phone and did you find anything of interest on that phone? Yes?

And can you tell us what you thought. One of the most interesting things that we found on Jake's phone at that time was under the note section, and it was a list of guns owned by the Wagners were purported to be. So basically, there's a list with each Wagner's name and then a list of guns underneath each

of those names. Jurors and Wagner's murder trial learned his brother Jake kept a list of guns that investigators think both men, along with their parents Billy and Angela owned on that list and SKA seven six two by thirty nine and a Colt nineteen eleven twenty two pistol. The search of the Wagner property also produced valuable evidence linking the Wagner's weapons to the murders. This included hundreds of

shell casings from the Wagner family farm. BCI firearms expert Matthew White delivered what could turn out to be damning testimony in the State of Ohio's case against George Wagner. Today, let's stop here for another break. During Special Prosecutor Andy Wilson's questioning of BCI agent Matthew White, prosecutors showed hundreds of photos of shell casings on the overhead screen. Jurors were seen taking notes and at times sketching doodle drawings

during the long and often technical testimony. Were you able based on your knowledge, you're training, your experience, and the work that you had done in this case examining book shell casings and the projectiles? Were you able to wring you an opinion as to whether or not any guns listed on that list could have been responsible for the evidence recovered frees from the scenes. I did, and could

you tell the jury what that opinion was? I felt the most likely candidates for firearms that could have been used were the SKS seven six two by thirty nine and the Coult nineteen eleven twenty two pistol. But based on your review of this, you determine that the skas seven six two by thirty nine and the Colt nineteen eleven twenty two could be contributors to the guns that were used. It could be the guns that were used

in this case. Yes, are that is script Matthewitt was also asked if any of the shell casings found on the Wagner's property matched any of the cartridge casings elected at the crime scenes. And when you did those comparisons, were you able to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty to reach a conclusion as to whether or not those exhibits that were recovered from Peterson Road were fired from the same firearm that fired the shellcasings recovered from scene

two Scene three. I was, and can you tell the jury what that opinion was. I sall my microsoftic comparison of the two fired twenty two long rifle cartridge cases compared to the other fired twenty too long rifle cartridge cases, I was able to conclude that all of the fired twenty two long rifle cartridge cases had been fired in the same firearm. The defense, however, tried to blunt the testimony linking the Wagner's family's weapons to the murder scenes.

The cross examination lasted less than ten seconds A good after nine, sir, you don't know who hired that weapon. I cannot say that, Thank you, Jeff. More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and

sound designed by Jeff Ta Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and Kati Studios. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.